Completely Non Controversial Wayland Protocol
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- čas přidán 14. 02. 2024
- Often times Wayland protocols are an absolute mes of controversy but for once that isn't happen and instead it's a totally normal uncontroversial experience, this is not a drill, this is actually happening.
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Phoronix Article: www.phoronix.com/news/Wayland...
XDG Drag Protocol: gitlab.freedesktop.org/waylan...
Extended Drag Protocol: gitlab.freedesktop.org/waylan...
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sticking out your gyatt for nerizzler
You're so bau bau
You're so Biboo Tax.
The brain rot is real
Here too!?
Did not expect this here
I feel like the groups with ACK power should be required to review all open requests once a year or something. If they have the ability to stall things indefinitely by ignoring them, they should be required to explicitly NACK with a specific reason.
The whole point of Ack power is to show that they will be compatible with it. Not acking is enough to say its non-standard and then it would be in the ext space, not in the xdg space.
How would you force them? Swatting them once a week as long as they don't comply?
@anlumo1 would be a start, could progress to waterboarding.
@@anlumo1If they ignore it, it becomes approval.
@@CptJistuce How would that help if they just don't implement it then?
For everyday folk, these are the kind of things which pile up and they don't wanna try any Linux distro, these "nuisances". Glad it's changing.
It's a rough edge and should be addressed it's just funny that something this random is what's non controversial
Tbf ChromeOS, Macos, and Windows all have nuisances as well. I think it's an unfortunate reality of large projects and products.
The Wayland Council has decided to bless this one 😛
You're telling me gnome didn't NACK it because it wasn't doing things the "gnome" way?
Probably because of gtk tabs, if it wasn't they would've borked it's implementation for everyone lol
@@charautrealyep. Good old gnome double standards. Anything we want is super useful and sould be done asap. Anything we don't want is evil and should be derided into oblivion as the user being stupid for asking it.
@@charautreal Draggable tabs were removed from GTK 4 and onwards, so I don't think that's the case. There was just nothing bad about the protocol that they could object to, so they didn't.
@CoderThomasB gnome often doesnt have the rule of common sense logic
NACKturally.
a rare instance of no beef in open source world? pog
No beef just more important things to worry about
A protocol getting merged into Wayland without any heated argument? What a breeze
Understandable, given the history of x11 where things have been passed without thinking the consequences more deeply.
0:22 that dearsqn clip tho hahahhaa
11:37 he's saying unusable because he earlier said "draggable toolbars are a major showstopped for a number of our important clients". It's unusable for those clients
That's fair
FYI: this already works on Chromium in XWayland, but does *not* work with native Wayland. Firefox has never had that smooth "drag out and keep dragging new window by the tab" in the first place.
Xwayland doesn't count
That is one of the reasons I actually stick with Chromium browsers. I use that smooth tab splitting and joining all the time on multi monitor setups… and Firefox just doesn’t do it right…
Not the only reason, but would love if Firefox actually implemented that.
works on brave on native wayoand.
In which I learned that I could bring tabs back into my web browser.
You.. Didn't think of that?
It’s just interesting… i have used this feature extensively for years and it’s always been the worst experience on Wayland. It’s not bad but it’s not good
The title... I'm scared
I can't tell you how many times I've tried to rearrange toolbars in Dolphin, and had to switch back to Xorg when I realized that it was literally impossible to re-dock the toolbars in the main Dolphin window while under Wayland. This will be so nice.
Amazing Gnome didn't kill it all!!!!!!😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮
Wait. That's illegal.
11:33 It makes some applications "unusable" in certain circumstances (not literally unable to be used in any capacity, but it requires some absolute nonsense and a huge waste of time in its current functionality) like if you accidentally drag out a pane in libreoffice, then can't add it back in, or find anywhere in the menus which allow you to do that ·∩·. in other words some applications use this as required functionality, not a convenience trick like in chromium
There was an OS called BeOS (its contemporary version is called Haiku), and it has tabbing natively in the window manager. It would be sweet to have something like that in Wayland.
I swear Haiku's WM has Linux builds that just aren't maintained very well, but I can't remember what it's called.
Edit: It's called Hikari
Cosmic desktop will have this as a feature, both in tiling and floating modes
sway has that, I haven't tried haiku/beos so I'm not sure if it's the same thing but I can't see how it would work any differently
@@colbyboucher6391 Hikari is not a wm from haiku, nor inspired by, it's not related to haiku at all
wayland already has this, linux has has this for years, you dont need a protocol for window tabbing.
We need more videos like this one. That is, about things getting done instead of bigger and bigger rants.
Gotta love those recommended videos
Gotta admit the bravery with the CZcams homepage
It's quite funny how similar our youtube home page is
Didn't know he watches vtubers
@@saiv46 Don't we all?
I hope once the big sticking points in the transition from x11 to wayland are figured out, most additions will be like this: Adding small QoL features that make Desktop Linux feel and act more mature. If we actually get to that point it'll be the year of the Linux Desktop.
That's why a time limit to the public is important. It can drastically speed up development.
BTW we are not talking about Gimp here. But I am glad the protocol/portal got finally integrated. I personally don't care much about it, but hey, at least it makes it objectively better and not worse experience for the end user.
So Chromium gets "their tab drag" and the rest of the world can't place window frames where they want? TBH, I am always amazed at how you have your finger on the pulse of whats going on! Absolute KUDOS!
Firefox and qt also want it
@@BrodieRobertson And potentially any tabbed application. I get the lean towards browsers, but the MDI concept is nothing new (Multiple Document Interface). Neither is the concept of applications placing their own dialogs ans sub windows. I have the feeling that Wayland is putting "protocol perfection" before usability and pragmatism. That is what V2 is for.
The way firefox does it with the thumbnail is how it works on Windows too. I've only ever really see Chrome's tab dragging acting all fancy like that.
i really thought the title was sarcasm...
For once it's actually just what's happening
It's often the small details that make an interface comfortable to use. Nice to see more of them appearing.
A day where gnome devs to not make their ack powers questionable is always a good day
the world if all wayland protocols had no drama
Read the captions of this video, -Brodie- Broskii
So glad Wayland added support for docking, I love docking!
TBH, this is highlighting the overall problem with design by committee projects like this, and is one of the primary issues that X11 had for YEARS, which halted any useful discussion around fixing it, causing Wayland to be the only option to modernise GUI functionality on Linux
I'm surprised you managed to make a video about no drama!
Regarding it being unusable in KDE, the panel already tries to do something like this and sometimes the element above it used for dragging completely disappears or gets stuck too far above it. Sometimes an element like the taskbar just gets lost in the process.This is probably why it's 4 buttons now instead in Plasma 6.
I enjoy watching your videos i watch them all the time i like learning new things off you mate but some days i have to clear my mind from the stress thats caused from building distributions and using linux or evan watching videos todo with linux we all have our lifes you know the problems that can be caused with linux. building distributions not to just using them is alot more stressful than just using them its a nightmare at times
Nice to know it isn't always drama...
Do you have any insight on mouse wheel scrolling speed whether there's any protocol planned or whose doors i need to knock on?
What i mean on a sane system, there is a sane scroll wheel behaviour of the mouse, and you can even set globally for the whole desktop how fast you want it to go.
On Linux each application decides, and if it comes from Windows, its likely going to scroll a bare handful of pixels per wheel tactile indent, so a whole swing of the wheel won't even drive you half a screenful forward, which i think is nuts. You can just rewrite scroll events using an x11 utility like imwheel, but we're definitely going to need something more robust on Wayland. And ideally a solution that already works in the transition period and doesn't actually depend on Wayland, it can be a dbus thing for all i care.
What I learned from this is that if it wasn't for KDE devs we would still be in the same condition as 3years ago, I wish KDE devs have had half of the donations these laisy gnome devs have been receiving. they would have done wonders.
Fr... kde is what making linux desktop move forward.., if kde weren't there, at some point all projects have become the gnome way and i had to move back to windows
@@vaisakhkm783 Oh my goodness, you two are so correct. KDE, even at their "worst" with KDE 4, never moved away from the traditional desktop experience. Even with all of the instability of early versions of KDE 4 (which were never meant for general use until KDE 4.2 I think), they never changed the metaphor of using a computer. If anything, KDE 4 expanded it and Plasma 5 (and soon to be Plasma 6) simply refined it. (And Plasma 6 looks to be rock solid and honestly, I probably will move to it the second it comes to the main Arch repos, and not just the KDE Unstable or Testing repos).
GNOME 3 on the other hand, changed the interface so much so quickly that it led to an even worse revolt from users, leading to at least 4 forks / different DEs from the release. (I'm of course talking about MATE, Cinnamon, LXQt, and Unity.) Not mention that this is where the modern "GNOME mentality" of removing everything seemed to originate from. Like, where are beginner users' desktop icons? Where are my minimize and maximize buttons? Where are my tray AppIndicator Icons? Why is the Dash/Dock not always visible? And why are so many extensions and editing dconf necessary to fix these issues? Like, they literally did a user survey, and so many users had the AppIndicator extension enabled; why haven't they brought that back into modern GNOME offically yet!?
Boy oh boy, after you reviewing over the story of this one lil feature...
What sticks out like a sore thumb is the whole "process" Wayland's design-by-consensus, design-by-committee is too arduous, and the process itself is getting in the way of progress.
Why, when the lot of them are programmers, none have made a tool to help simply, plainly show where a request/proposal sits?
It looks like it works more like a Japanese Gacha game, where you can't access a button until you've clicked three other buttons in amongst the 29 other icons on screen on the two to five sub-menus buried in behind each.
The process is the point. Wayland devs get off to bureaucracy.
It really seems like Gnome is the big one that keeps doing that, it sucks.
So GNOME isn't making just their own desktop unnecessarily cumbersome to use, now they have to ruin things for everyone else... No wonder their devs get so much hate.
nice i didnt even realised im missing it
Why did it take so long? Two words, busy volunteers.
Around the time a lot of major issues were being dealt with
@@BrodieRobertson I was looking at the bigger picture. Given that most of these people are volunteers, we have to factor in other responsibilities such as health, house , wife, family, job, personal needs, etc. Things people have wanted to do for years have been sidelined by such responsibilities.
I reckon this may work pretty well with Linux phones that eventually support multi-window by dragging a tab for example to split the screen between two pages. I think it will work better than the Android approach for sure
A non-controversial Wayland protocol? HA! I'll believe that when I'm competent to review the code! XD
(This is all a bit abstract for ex-musician mol.biologist old me, but I'm interested to hear how X11's successor is getting on. Would be good if everyone were wearing their adult-y pants all the way along the line.)
ah watching a video about wayland on x11 that just works, i like it!
I don't understand why they let people create PRs, leaving it for years doing nothing, and eventually do not merge. Just add a label: not interested/probably not going to merge.
This doesn't only affects Wayland, I'm seeing this with other Linux projects as well, such as Gnome. I understand it takes time, but not years in my opinion.
I wonder how Wayland feels about direct display access... it's forcing Valve to use X instead of wayland because they literally can't get DDA on things like the Index
The Index works on Wayland
Wayland hates everything that isn't in the designer's vision
I never noticed this when switching to linux. How it works right now on labwc is all i need.
3:17, got this far when I realised there was a way for it to be implemented in app without wayland supporting it directly. Just take a snapshot of the tab with the cursor on it and save it as a temporary cursor file before then setting the cursor image to that file. You just end up with an enormous cursor file for a few moments. Perhaps not a great solution but it does provide a way to backport the feature to versions of wayland (or maybe even versions of x11 or whatever came before it) that don't have support for it.
Yeah, but you still wouldn't have snapping.
Pretty sure X11 can just do the thing like Windows and Mac can.
Wayland is a step back in some functionality because it's a work in progress.
@@gljames24 Why would you even want that annoying s**t? Still, a work around is better than nothing for the versions of wayland that don't support it.
@@Poldovico I was only taking a guess at which was the earliest fork of that mammoth compositor that didn't support it. Whether I was right or wrong about the version the point remains valid even if it was applied to the wrong version
Sounds like how flutter handles notification styling on mobile apps
In all honesty, this isn't a required thing, this is "make my Linux behave exactly like Windows". I don't think this needs to be a hard goal (at all). In fact, this could be detrimental.
Just try the hilarity of dragging tabs from a browser on one monitor to a browser on another...
1:57 Waylandland?
Wayland without the drama is just X11.
yes I do think it takes too long. Wayland need to make steps and continue with their development, this slow PRs cycle is not helping them. And all those different DEs aren't helping as well.
When things are not controversial but also not radical in and of themselves, they are probably less noticeable compared with issues that are generating drama, feedback and so bumping themselves to the first page of "active threads" such as in a forum or other dev environment.
So I'm using plasma 6 and curiously actual tabs in kde apps don't seem to use this. Konsole's and dolphin's don't. Dolphin doesn't even let me make the tab a new window and on konsole the new window just appears after I let go of the mouse and you can't drag it back in...
It does work on panels and toolbars though, so maybe I misunderstood what this protocol is supposed to do on plasma.
This protocol was recently merged, but it's quite likely many applications don't use it yet or a version using them has not been released yet.
@@TheFerdi265 the panels and toolbars inside dolphin and konsole do seem to use it, as I said. They must not have gotten around to implementing it on the tabs yet - or they don't intend to do that, which is curious.
All the qt examples shown in the video were what dolphin calls panels, not tabs. I can't remember this ever working on X11.
"Dolphin doesn't even let me make the tab a new window" there is one funny thing about that, you can right click on tab and click "detach tab" but after you've done it -- there is no way to reattach it back or attach to any other dolphin window :D
9:11 *Hello tearable menus my old friend...*
Is that what you call NeXTStep style menus like FluxBox has?
@@chrisxdeboy I'm more referring to the tearable menu bar and to the tearable tool bar elements in GNOME 1.x and KDE 1.x, 2.x, and early versions of KDE 3. Heck, even Windows up until Windows XP afaik had this feature. Do I use it (for the vast majority of my use cases)? No. But was it interesting to see how many people left GNOME after GNOME 2.0 was released and went to KDE 3? Yes. Was it interesting to see how GUIs evolved over the years? Also yes.
@@cameronbosch1213 what does that mean?
@@chrisxdeboy It's a trip down memory lane.
@@cameronbosch1213 so I looked it up, and yeah, it is a lot like in NeXTStep/Fluxbox.
The animations for dragging a tab out of a window are not so bad. Dragging one back in is where it gets a bit weird.
This is gonna sound really dumb, but stuff like this is why I used chromium based based browsers for the longest time.
The news: Wayland was a functioning project for once 😂😂😂
Pls use dark theme in your browser
browser is already dark theme, look at url bar and tabs
@@RandomGeometryDashStuff hmm but still web pages are in light theme, maybe dark reader addon can help
dragging tabs working as expected in Windows. Well you have obviously never tried dragging tabs in Windows with a touch screen.
Lol I never noticed that issue and tbh I hate everything windows, tabs forever
We are waiting wlroots 🙏
i couldnt give a damn for that "feature"
Chrome OS works the correct way 👍🏻
Making microsoft and adobe look fast at implementation of basic features once again. They've got us so trained on that, people are applauding wayland for what amounts to a participation trophy.
It sucks! design by commiteeeeee.... how long can drag and drop and dock and undock take to implement....especially after someone allready implemented it...wtf. 3 years???? THREE YEARS!!! my god.
GNOME moment 😢
Linux in a nutshell if you ask me
Why are all Linux developers such drama queens all the time? Literally every small change turns into a giant drama
It's Wayland
The lengths people go to just to not allow programs to set their xy position
I can hear the comments: So called linux fan wants broken Wayland to act like Windows. 😂
A non issue really.
With a tiling manager you know where the tab goes.
Especially if you DON'T use the mouse,
but the proper keybind(s).
Also DO NOT SAY Wayland if you use XWayland on top of Wayland..
Now the question is are you running a native (explicit designed to run in) Wayland app or not?
🙃👀😇🤔🌱🌱🌱🌱
umm, i don't think many browsers have a keybind to detach a tab in the first place?
First🎉
gnome didn't fuck this one up? omg 2024
nice 69 views when i clicked
the funny part about this brodie guy is, he is adamntly promoting wayland's WINDOW TILING as if its a very important thing people cant live without. and while he is demonstrating things, when he reads and shows the actual window he need to use, he FULLSCREENED IT. promoting window tiling only to show that it is POINTLESS in REAL WORLD PRACTICE where things matters. i suggest, for the sake of his wayland campaign, he should tiled those windows he need to read and show the audience the contents in it. dont fullscreened it. if he says, people will be having trouble reading it? then THERE YOU GO.