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As someone who listens to these videos to sleep… that shout-out scared the heck out of me

Could be a "Crab-like" species not a spider. They said they have "PIncers" which is usually indicative of crustaceans instead of fangs that almost all spiders have called "chelicerae"

The black garden being the garden before time made me audibly say "HOLY SHIT" That's so fucking cool, how didnwe not notice this sooner???

I always remember that video in which that woman appears on mars. there has to be another character from "the deep" that we haven't met yet.

One big thing that stuck put to me in the books of sorrow. the vessel we know of a disciple that uses a vessel that has complicated ties to darkness, having betrayed the witness. Yup nezarec time, and nezarec is full of poetry, a veritable god of grim poetry of pain and suffering. of course before his betrayal he mightve been recruiting other lower ranked claws of the witness, like oryx, or guiding them. Now i wouldnt say unveiling was written by him, theres too many passages that would be antithetical to his personality as the final god of pain, specifically the final paragraph of 1. pleased to meet you. Who wrote the unveiling? ahh seems like the witness before they were made a character. we see the use of word|word formats so we can assume it is them or another precursor. Specifically the individual has to consider themself as a means to end suffering. I prefer to ignore a lot of the Set dressing of the winnower and gardener lore bc its just filler that obstufacets the truth. the idea that the winnower and gardener existed before time as mathematical constants and laws at the start of a great chain of possibilities. thru the passage of time, certain possibilities became greater than others (sword logic) The book personifies the laws of the gardener, trying to make them look immature thru being angry with the rules(i believe Every bit of personification in this book is propaganda and shouldnt be trusted) The laws "changed", allowing for new patterns to appear. in the first knife we see the ancients first use of the word|word format, proving that this is an ancient precursor probably an aspect of the witness. The witness asks a question whether or not the killing protein that saves us from cancer is an agent of the gardens law, or the winnower. (its an agent of light, Devotions inspires bravery, bravery inspires sacrifice, sacrifice leads to death. the sacrifice of one self for everyone else is itself light aligned, tho i imagine the witness is trying to frame it as a winnower, much like themself for obvious "cancer is bad therefore winnowing good") in T=0 literally the beginning of time , the witness portrays themself as wrestling with the laws of the universe(since the witness cant be the laws of the universe, this is a fabrication at least in part) through this fight with these metaphorically opposed laws they create life, galaxies, and the universe as we know it. Bc Laws cant fight they just Are, this is more accurately saying that the laws, which are the same thing, created this one path, it could also be interpreted that this wasnt the beginning of time but instead the begining of the witness' attack on the traveler, causing the traveler to spread life to other planets and making more life in the universe. in the cambrian explosion the witness tries to spread even more false propaganda, this entire chapter is fullll of shit. ofc the "i created you" and more spreading of the idea of sword logic. the more interesting thing we find s the witness' hate of those who it recently shared a life with. ppl who would let the world and universe come into its shape by itself, as we know them now, the nihilists. patternfall is complicated. it refers, similar to the book of sorrow, to oryx as "my man oryx" so hey maybe nezarec and the witness was one in the same at the point in story development, or it was really the witness speaking to oryx. furthermore, the chapter refers to how the philosophy of the sword logic was imprinted upon the cosmos by the fight between the gardener and winnower(possibly bc of the fact that one won, and the other lost, but again metaphysical mumbojumbo and frankly i dont believe theres a difference between the laws of darkness and light. they are the same laws of the universe.) The wager reminds me of the books of sorrow A LOT in their philosophy, treating the weak as if they dont exist, bc they could not claim the right to exist. it does present to us that there is no destiny, just laws and the outcomes, and states directly to us, that we are the gardeners final gambit. the gardener is real, and it is used to refer to the traveler, we really shouldnt act like the gardener is at least the traveler as seen thru the eyes of the witness. the chapter also refers to the book of sorrow, calling us majestic majestic, as in it is the only truth, and simply be existing we prove ourselves. Trust and hope is written by eris, theres no mystery here and she brings up good points. analyzing the darkness and light as political opponents is unhelpful, in balance does life thrive. its important to remember, the laws of the universe are laws, they arent ppl, they arent precursors. the gardener and winnowers are but fabrications of the witness as they see it. the universe is made of one fundamental law, and the light and darkness is that law existing

Anyone else get an ad like every single minute Literally got the same anti vape ad every 30 seconds I saw more ads than time on the video That’s insane dude

I don’t care if it’s different writers it’s like the Halo franchise you don’t come into somebody else’s work and change it you carry their work on or you are the wrong hire. So if final shape doesn’t contain the Gardner and the Winnower, whoever was hired to write it is bad at their job.

2:44 Lore Daddy Lullaby :'D

Gonna be crazy when the witness is killed in the campaign and the winnower is the final raid boss.

This makes me think that when Oryx communed with the deep, he was speaking with Rhulk

I’d like it if the gardener and winnower are in d3( if there is one) as main story plot.

No wonder our generation is considered the softest, we need trigger warnings FFS. Disliked on the grounds of pandering

Considering the way it was written and the "my man Oryx" I think it was just the narrative team writing in universe. Breaking the 4th wall isn't exactly new for them. The "winnower" is them. They separate the wheat from the chaff. Lore, multiplayer ranks, raids. They need to make sure there are the strong. Whether that's players or lore masters

Fitting ad I’m falling asleep to this video run thanks Byf :)

I dont think these pronoun points mean much. What ever you think of LGBT bungie has shown that you cant trust them to understand the grammatical way to use pronouns. Since all the bungie employees have pronouns in their marketing material Whose to say they would make that distinction in the lore.

27:05 witness BASED propoganda

I don't normally comment, but I feel like something was missed in Saints dream... Personally, I feel like the woman at the end wasn't the Gardener. I believe it was the Winnower... Reason being, She claimed that he was just like his father, and acting violent sure doesn't seem like something the Winnower would do. The Winnower seems to be a being that understands it's power and doesn't necessarily act in violence, but act with strength, knowing it will get it's outcome because it essentially always has. But I feel like violence is a REALLY thin line between these two beings. Fighting back might seem violent, but in a way, Saint is in a constant loop in his dreams. The Gardener is always fighting for a different outcome and peace wouldn't solve that because it has ALWAYS lost the flower game, it wants to find that ONE outlier that can allow it to win, and in fights you can always choose something different. That being said, what if this is the Winnower asking Saint to "Give up" and accept it. She states "You'll blind yourself with all that bright fire.... Maybe then you'll learn to look instead of see." The bright fire could insinuate the hope of a new outcome (pro Gardener) which is a constant war. Saint is fighting as if HE is the Gardener in this scenario which proves to always be a loss. In comes the Winnower, "Just like your father... All of you." (All of you being life itself) "In your life you should take more after me." This is the only line where this could a stretch. Everything has to fight to survive. Whether it's bugs, flowers, or even guardians. The Gardener creates, and the Winnower destroys. But destruction could mean multiple things. Civilizations can be destroyed by other civilizations. The destruction is the Winnower itself, and the creation of those that are destroying is the Gardener. All of you in this instance isn't just Saint or even the Guardians. I believe it's targeting the Vex that Saint is fighting, and Saint himself. This could also just mean everything that is existing in general. To me, I honestly feel like the Winnower is telling Saint, that his fight will always result in a loss, and that there's no need to fight if you accept it. Hence why she covers his eyes to only see darkness. Why would the gardener cover his eyes? To me, if it truly were the Gardener, It would look for another way to win. That could mean to fight again, and try something different! Find that outlier! In conclusion, I believe the Gardener, in a way, acts with "violence." But not traditional violence. It's fighting to create an outcome of survival. Which is what Saint is doing repeatedly. Therefore, being "just like his Father." And the Winnower is the woman, insinuating that this fight will always lead to loss, and Saint should accept that loss and follow the path that she always lays out in the game. There's probably A LOT of plot holes there, but something about that dream just didn't seem right to me. Be nice please ;-;

40:28 I'm probably having a schizo moment, but I SWEAR there was a lore tab somewhere that described the way of Taking as 'moving the target to a different reality where time was MUCH, MUCH faster (A few seconds here is years in their type of time difference) and their will gets broken on such a fundamental level that they become corrupted and change into an unthinking soldier that literally does not do anything unless it is ordered to'

Is the winnower possibly the traveler?

Sounds like we are the winnower in a parallel universe

I actually watching your videos while I’m at work

You raise an interesting point when discussing K1 that has always confused me, and I always figured I was forgetting or missing something. But that is, if Clovis Bray lived during the Golden Age (i.e., pre-Collapse and pre-arrival of the Witness and the Black Fleet), then where did Clarity Control and the Anomaly come from? Why were they there before the Black Fleet/Witness? I really hope we get insight on this and TFS. Also, on the topic of the Collapse, I would love to get some insight on the mechanics of how the Black Fleet was expelled from Sol and didn't immediately come back. Even if Savathun had hidden the Veil and convinced the Witness it was somewhere else, why didn't the Black Fleet ever come back to hang around the Traveler? I suppose the answer to this is the Veil, as in the Witness couldn't enact the Final Shape until it had the Veil to connect light and dark. But then why not keep most of the Fleet at the Traveler and then send part of the Fleet out searching for the Veil? Was it that the Traveler was basically dormant or dead? When the light pulsed and killed Ghaul, did that just signal that the Traveler was no longer dormant and so could be communed with in order to find the Veil? I hope we get some clarity here; frankly, a big cutscene and deep dive into the Collapse, Savathun's deception, etc. would be incredible.

Honestly I hate that the Witness recons all the Hive lore. I miss the real story! I hope whoever came up with the Witness and erased the old story was among the 200 that got fired.

I just wish that they kept the excerpt from the Union in the boss fight. That is THE best piece of music in destiny and I hope that it will return someday

Mark my words guardians … the first knife … is the witness

That hunter death @ 25:55 is hilarious to watch.

How about this: The Witness IS "The first knife".

I’m getting flavours of the shadows and the Vorlons in Babylon 5.

Guys, the Winnower is like the persona of the Veil. The Gardener is Traveler's. The Witness is basically a god-like angry being. That's why we're gonna have a raid to -try- kill them. They're not the same. And I hope Final Shape finally sets it.

I’m starting to see the winnower like truth from FMAB and the Witness like Father and I’m guessing that at the end of Final Shape the winnower will tell the Witness they are wrong

I've been wondering about this for a long time after comparing the statues to the Witness on its arrival. The Deep needing to be manifested into an ogre reminds me of something like the Daedric Princes in Elder Scrolls (for example Hermaeus Mora), where when they want to address us, they have to manifest into a form that won't drive us insane. Whatever the Winnower is, we are mere ants to it, including the Witness.

To interact with the entity behind the darkness what if we have to be taken to travel to that other realm? What if that is our gateway to interact with it? If we win we win our freedom and if we lose we become another taken mindless slave. That’d be a twist. The inner fight on whether we allow ourselves to be taken by someone like the witness or whomever inherits his power (Mara).

I totally agree with the idea that we not let anticipation become expectation in regards to the Winnower.

"Grab yourself some popcorn" *shows the dune bucket* Appreciate the joke.

The line by the witness in the Vidoc, “The guardian’s use is yet to be determined; we’re in need of a god killer” is pretty definitive. What god(s) would the witness be referring to? I think the Gardner and the Winnower!

I don’t think any lore book should be taken seriously. Bungie has changed the story so many times that it doesn’t matter.

Veil = Winnower (or at least a conduit to it, similar to the traveler being either the gardener or a physical manifestation of the gardener's power) Callin' it rn^

I remember that in Season of the Lost, Mara says a line about the one being above Savathûn along the lines of "It uses the Darkness but it is *not* the Darkness," and that is "Misrepresents the Darkness." And in the Ahsa cutscene, she says that the precursors thought that "The Gardener needed a Winnower," and I believe that whilest the Witness is not the Winnower, they believe themselves to be that Winnower.

I wish Genshin Impact lore could be this deep then all players will not quit but gather still in masses.

the black garden being the actual garden is so obviously shocking that i feel somewhat dumb for not accepting it

24:56 might be a stretch, but as the Witness needed both the Light and the Darkness; perhaps a Dark Guardian (who left the Light) was not what they wanted, and therefore disregarded. Their point was to combine the two forces, like our main character does. That could explain why they tried to recruit us, like we can see in the vidoc for Final Shape (”We’re in need of a Godkiller”), why they would tell us about the Final Shape and not their other disciples, as they are only of the Darkness. Albeit this might be copium, and/or excusing two completely separate writings which have no connection.

Driving to/from work for an hour - lore content is perfect for this. Thank you Lullaby Lore Daddy 🖤

Bro was spawn trapping

1:09:48 I think the “darkness father” might have a bit to do with the exo origins. Clarity control allowing a human mind to be preserved in the power of consciousness and control. Exos are reborn in a degree of darkness. Humans being chosen by the traveler have the blessing of light, and awoken are neutral. Being born again as a guardian obviously flips the scale the other way. Funny how Mara Sov says her “Mother” was the starlight and her “father” was the dark, that stays consistent with the unveiling story too

I want to preface this by saying I don’t think the Winnower exists / doesn’t exist anymore, but if they did… with what we know of the Veil it seems unlikely that they would be a being of Darkness. To me it seems more likely that they (like the gardener) are also a being of the light. A primordial twin to the gardener. One creates and the other destroys. Perhaps in the original garden there was no Light and no Dark, and their differentiation / existence only came after the Gardener changed the rules. Once the gardener “changed the rules” in this theory I’d say that the winnower became a locked away personality within the traveler, similar to Marika / Radagon in Elden Ring, or perhaps became the Veil. Either way I believe the Winnower went dormant, fully convinced that their logic, their philosophy was so true, that the universe would ultimately follow it. And the Winnower would be correct in their assumption. Maybe they started communicating with other beings, maybe not idk. While I still don’t really believe that the Winnower exists in the current story, IF they did, that’s what I believe would make the most sense.

My boy Venextron got a shout out! Let’s goooooo

I think the gardener/winnower will be d3. We know the Witness now, the traveler's story is the end of d2. Awesome job as always 😊

Thanks Venextron.

Thank you Byf, I’ve been listening to your lore for YEARS, since the very beginning all the way back to Destiny 1. I had a long drive here in America, and listening to you talk about the lore just makes the hours fly by. Thanks man.

Right off the bat, a battle while Pyramids are overhead.