Destiny 2 Lore - The Winnower. Who are they? Are they real? Are they The Witness? Unveiling's Lore.
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- čas přidán 26. 05. 2024
- Check out Advanced GG's shakers and gaming supplements and use code "Byf" or "LoreDaddy" for 10% off! advanced.gg/?ref=LoreDaddy Destiny 2's Lore and Story drops hints at the constant communications from The Darkness. Whilst some of these communications definitely come from The Witness, some of them don't fit the Witness' character. There is a character called the Winnower that does fit with those actions and they're a mythical and core part to the story of the Darkness, The Traveller and the Gardener. Today we're exploring the Winnower and whether they exist or not.
Venextron's thoughts on the matter: • Unveiling: Ending Dest...
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The line "my man oryx" was the one that convinced me of the difference. The witness would never say that in a million years.
Yes. Thank you. That line is so out of character for the Witness.
If thats the witness, id hate it more than whoever wrote nimbus' dialogue
The Winnower is a total bro and I really hope we encounter him. Not like the stick-in-the-mud fake-deep fetishist megamind we know as The Witness
Is it tho, possible, that it is a retcon?
Prolly Savathun, tbh
22:09
Final shape Hive version: "git gud scrub"
Final shape Witness version: rage quit
I was thinking more like a parent just shutting off the console or destroying it.
While the sword logic is pretty much just that, it feels a lot more sincere to the hive themselves. iirc Oryx basically felt like he was doing the civilizations the hive destroyed a favor by showing them the one true logic, so it is git gud scrub but more so as a genuine statement than an insult
I was thinking: *pulls out Ethernet cable
@@NotReal-187I agree. Though the Hive are violent, in the end, they wipe out civilizations to end their suffering, because if you’re not strong enough to defeat them, you’re too weak to defend yourself and thus you will suffer, so the Hive basically consider their universe-wide genocide a mercy killing.
Final Shape Guardian version: “Nu uh”! “What do you mean “Nu uh””?!
I've noticed that the witness talks to us like we're a rare toy on a shelf.
The winnower treats us like a unique specimen in an experiment.
I see it as a being which views itself as a God / a being with a god complex looking at life as below it because it is enlightened and seeking greater purpose (the final shape). It comes across in almost all dialogues The Witness has in game, like especially how it speaks to Calus. I’d say the Witness is like a cult leader especially with the whole “disciple” thing. It has a distorted view of the world and is forcing everything to change into that. (Also shares some similarities with real cults with how the Witness formed…)
I’m not sure which is worse…. That’s terrifying right?!
Could be Mia Sunderesh
@@broderickfoster2107Agreed, if the winnower is a thing then it is a true God of creation it is one of two primordial forces, it enjoys life and values it, it just enjoys seeing how it plays out so it would have no reason to be condescending or authoritative because the winnower does not wield authority or power it is power and authority, to assert dominance over your creation is not very godlike
"lore daddys lullaby" goes EXTREMELY hard. Absolutely fantastic name
Sounds like an exotic pulse rifle if I ever heard one. (Flavor Text: Your use is just enough for me)
ngl this is the first time I've bought a product like this from a youtube advertisement, and not only because I actually think its perfect and like byf but because I do have problems with sleep often and hate taking melatonin so I thought sleeping better is worth the shot and worst case scenario it tastes decent
The "sleepy time vanilla" of gamer tea just dropped
@@ryangranquist9580 I've been there before. It screwed me up in college. When I first spoke to the Advanced GG team about it the first thing I said was that I wasn't going to make anything with a specifically melatonin formula. In combo with stuff and over a short time, sure it can work... but I screwed myself trying to use it in university to get even a fraction of normal sleep. Luckily, the team was on the exact same page with this, which is why I jumped at the opportunity for it.
They're not paying me to say this comment but I'm saying it anyway. I'd never have partnered with an energy supplement company under normal circumstances. They're often shady and filled with crap, cause havoc to hormones and all sorts of other nonsense. The moment I asked Advanced GG for their product specs and assurances of safety it was the biggest show of confidence when they said it was FDA Approved and Approved by the California Food and Drugs association. Those are two pretty high bars and they also stay away from the typical crap that you find in a load of other formulas.
I know people love to throw out the performance side of it, but like... I care about whether you're throwing something in your body that has bad stuff in there. It's the reason you'll probably only ever see Advanced GG on the channel gamer supplement wise.
Hope the sleep side of things get better. I know the melatonin struggle. I really hope this stuff helps you to calmer sleep. :) [and they aren't paying me to say that last bit either lol]
I have issues sleeping and I will admit to listening to your playlist on random. You're just a great storyteller!
The structure in the black garden being a stump of silver wings made me drop my glass of water. That's actually mind blowing
Was that not obvious?
@@ontos8914 It was not!
@@ontos8914 everyone knew that it was a stump/ roots in the black garden and underneath it but no one knew exactly what it was or what caused it.
@@ThridenGames I mean it was pretty obvious
@@ontos8914 ok sure 👌
Yea, the Winnower even referred to Oryx as “my man”, like he was a good friend. The Witness doesn’t speak like that when I read Unveiling
Cayde also said, "My man" once.
And he's in the garden.
Cayde is the Winnower confirmed
The BoS entity and the Unveiling entity both use the term ‘majestic’
While the Witness iirc has never used that word.
@@shooterDisease i can only read BoS as brotherhood of steel what does that mean T-T
@@chloedoesstuff3753Books of sorrow
@@shooterDisease so what I'm getting from this is that "Majestic" is a sure sign of the Winnower speaking while "Salvation" is a sure sign it's the Witness.
I ❤ the Winnower and how chill they sound talking with “My Man Oryx”
He was his homie, they were bros
That's one of the huge differences between the Witness and the Winnower. When the Witness speaks, not only does it refer to itself in plural nouns (we, us, etc.), but it also speaks in a more formal, cryptic, and simple way. The Winnower on the other hand is very casual and laid back, almost like meeting a close friend.
Venextron+Byf+Myelin lore round table when?
This
Add Evaze to the mix and watch the sparks fly.... I always wanted to watch them play together. I'll look into Venextron now thanks to this video but Byf is a Warlock, Myeline is a Titan, and Evaze is a Hunter that would be EPIC...
Guys guys, stop making great ideas.
As amazing as that idea is, Myelin quit both the game and lore after Lightfall. He makes Destiny videos when he has sponsors, but nothing else. He's a Helldivers gamer now. Truly a great loss for the lore community.
HiddenXperia (Halo) and MyNameIsByf (Destiny) coming together to talk about their respective lore of their favorite franchises is something I would pay to see.
The reveal of the stump being in the black garden is crazy cool.
It was really fun working with Venextron on his Unveiling video, cannot wait to listen to what your opinions and thoughts are on the subject, Byf!
I literally saw this and thought of Ven, can’t wait
@@TheParadoxGamer1 I had the exact same thought. Would love to see a round table discussion involving Byf, Venextron and some other creators. Both big and small
@@SolvedAlloy3942 I’d have a field day with that.
I didn't know you worked on that video with venextron
@@Anantashesha3k I ended up reading through his script, giving a bunch of evidence and clues, screen shots and giving advice on his animatics (which are fire btw) He put in so much work on that video its unreal!
Clovis Bray: hmmm...booba scary
If you go into dsc and stand directly under, you can see SOMEONE AT BUNGIE TOOK THE TIME to animate the booba breathing
@@m4j0r3x wut? wdym by that?! what does it meaaaannnnnn?!
Booba do the in and out
@@dystopia72 my words were merely guidances, you must walk the path on your own
Booba do the in and out
A Hive Ogre, hulking behemonths that not even Oryx can control.
*posessed by The Winnower*
"Hey what's up dude?"
"Eyo my G I'm glad we got to talk, listen fam, you gotta wipe out the universe to prove The Hive deserve to live, deal?"
"Yoo hows the million years battle againts your sibling and who won?"
Until shown otherwise in-game, I believe that The Winnower is in fact real and that what happened in Unveiling did happen. It just did not happen exactly as the events of Unveiling laid out.
What makes me say this? The last entries of Inspiral also speak of a Gardener and Winnower, along with the Garden and The Flower Game. Yet those entries describe that the schism between the Gardener and The Winnower as a mutual thing. Along with the Winnower as far less darwinistic in it's tone and approach. Which leads me to believe The Witness spun/framed the events Unveiling to us and Eris (who transcribed it) in a manner than was more in line with it's thinking and modus operandi. All while it pretended to be The Winnower.
So where is The WInnower? Where is it residing? I'd wager, somewhere deep within The Veil.
*Addendum:* I also think this applies to Oryx's conversation with "The Deep". This was The Witness masquerading and adopting the mannerisms of The Winnower. To make itself seem more "final" than primordial. Remember, Oryx harbored a shadow of doubt about his ultimate purpose. What better to reassure him than to pretend to be what is effectively god. Yet this false guise The Witness took was based on a real entity The Witness knew and understood. Not only that, The Witness was very selective of who knew it's identity.
I think it's also important to remember it was Savathûn selected to be a Disciple-In-Waiting. Oryx seemingly never knew of The Witnesses identity, and Xivu didn't seem to know until very recently. This suggests that The Witness only revealed itself to Xivu Arath as it saw no need to hide it's identity with The Final Shape.
Above all else, The Witness is deciever and manipulator who rivals Savathûn...and even exceeded her for a while.
"grab a popcorn bucket" *shows the dune bucket*....what are you telling me to do to this video Byf?
Watch it chief 🍿 🎞️ 🎥
The Witness wants to end the game. The Winnower wants to see who wins.
Very fine, but very important distinction there.
One is a tournament manager, and the other is a vengeful, spoiled child.
Shaxx is like the Winnower.
The witness is more like Shayura, or Clovis, or any other character who just wants to 'unplug' an existence through hate.
The witness just wants to be the knife that cuts away what isnt needed for a final shape (in its opinion that is). Asa confirmed this. They sought a purpose and their purpose is to be the knife.
Like you said, the winnower just oversees the game and in this game, I think the witness is the first knife and the wielder is the winnower
One thing I do actually want to add here. We do have a little bit better of an idea of how Taken are created. When an entity is pulled into that other dimension, something speaks to it. Every type of Taken we’ve encountered (at least in D1) has a Grimoire card recording these conversations. The way these are phrased, the mannerisms of the speaker, are very similar to the voice that speaks to Oryx when he entered and conversed with the Deep. And I think that’s where beings go when they are taken. They stand before the Deep.
At the end of each card, the taken entity is presented with a “knife” and told to take its “new shape.”This is the first time we saw this terminology and it is what the Winnower references when it says it found the first knife in the garden. Thus, it can be assumed that the Deep that transforms the Taken, that presumably spoke to Oryx, is the Winnower.
Something to note as well; even in Unveiling, the writer mentions that the concept of the gardener, Winnower, garden, etc. are metaphor, dumbed down to a level that we are able to understand. How that measures up with us being able to visit the black garden as a physical place, the idea that the gardener is a *person,* I don’t know. Maybe we’ll get answers in The Final Shape. Maybe we won’t.
My understanding is that since the Vex are the shape that always persists (my view), they have a deeper understanding of the higher dimension in which the actual garden exists or existed and have been able to simulate what it would have looked like at the point of T=0. That is what the Black Garden is. It is referred to as the Black Garden because it is a copy of the original garden just as the Black Heart was a copy of the Veil.
It’s important to remember: there is never a point that explicitly links the Black Garden to THE Garden in Unveiling, beyond to the implication of “The Black Garden is the birthplace of the Vex.” A statement that already has truly ludicrous number of asterisks attached to it.
I do believe at one point either byf or my own deduction (too long ago to say which.) noted or read that each taken has its greatest weakness turned to a strength instead, such as the goblins enhanced utility through it's invul shield of others. Idk if that is relevant to your point but i thought it should be added for context.
The idea of the Winnower "finding" the First Knife it it's hand and it being the catalyst for the actual process of Taking is interesting to me. The fact that both scenes play out similarly (a conflict brings one of the sides to look down and find the Knife) leads me to believe that while the Winnower is the one "Making" the Taken, it also Took itself first, in that original confrontation. The Knife, in this sense, might represent Change.
@@The5lackerYes you are right in that there is nothing outright stated that the gardens are the same. However a big chunk of Byf’s video here is how the original tree of silver wings was said to be from the black garden, which sort of links the two together by proxy.
I still think the black garden is a simulation of what the original garden is, the vex may be from the original garden and carried some memory of it, then simulated it as close as they can because they don't currently have a way to simulate paracausal things yet.
I say that because having a way to just mosey on in to a place before time and a source of pure paracausality just seems odd.
I suppose it could make sense in a fashion. If a race of time bending robot goo is bent on survival across all time, it would make sense that if they could manipulate time and burrow into the ‘original garden’ they would do so in droves and infest it. Pretty solid survival strategy to occupy the OG garden before time? Maybe?
I was thinking about how the vex are connected to this, because if the black garden is the garden before time, then why do the vex inhabit it, but the vex have the ability to travel time and are obviously the strongest species. Maybe they are the pattern that is referred to as
BYF this is genius! The WITNESS is actually not the WINNOWER. I can now relate to what Savathun said when she was describing the WITNESS "IT IS NOT DARKNESS BUT WEARS IT LIKE A CLOAK"
The Winnower and Gardener being figurative father and mother was not expected but really cool
Lol what else would it be? Two gay brothers?
You needed this video to understand it’s all figurative?
@@GeronimoPlaz why couldn't they just be two brothers? Did I miss some implied romance? I'm not sure where exactly that comes into play. I've never really thought of the Gardener as female until some of the more recent entries. It doesn't really matter either way for the sake of the story as far as I know yet. In the end I suspect we are getting some crazy lore in this expansion and I look forward to learning more.
@@jhempthe Gardner/traveler has always been referred to a female
Lol that means the witness was like a mean older brother and humanity is the little sibling that tells mom(traveler)
she winnow on my light til i traveler
*EXTREMELY LOUD INCORRECT BUZZER*
@@xdbetyarshe winnow on my garden till I darkness?
She travel on my veil till I [summit/pyramidion/Final Shape]
@@xdbetyar traveler? i hardly know her
@@Bagel920 *EXTREMELY LOUD INCORRECT BUZZER*
There is a lot of similarities in the concepts of the Gardener (light/physical) and the Winnower (dark/consciousness) and the overall genesis story of Gnosticism. The Witness in this instance would represent the demiurge trying to excise it's will on creation as a supreme and ultimate entity within our macrocosm, where as the Gardener represents Barbelo, (mother nature) and the Winnower is Bythos (father consciousness) and the Garden itself is Monad (conceptulaized existence before time, the one that is before all, and the all that are the one). 'We grow forever in the garden of both directions.'
Hell yeah
I doubt bungie would tangle themselves in the web that is Gnostic belief. But maybe
Interesting observation: if the power to take is to "take" things from different realities. What is our ghost doing to us when we resurrect? Is it not "taking" us from an alternate reality where we survive?
What if this power is "the first knife"? We interpreted this knife as only being usable by the winnower, in the capacity to destroy life or to quickly move to its desired "pattern". Why wouldn't the gardener also be able to use this "knife" to relocate life, to preserve patterns by moving them to different locations, to create even more complexity?
In an unrelated thought, I think it's fairly obvious that the witness is not the winnower. Given the witness creation story given by the worm, it wouldn't line up with the primordial winnower.
Hold let him cook
Oh my… an hour of lore… this will be watched in segments. Good job lore daddy.
29:30 I just can't help but point out that Oryx is quoting the ancient S'pht from Marathon 2 - "In primordial space, timeless creatures made waves. These waves created us and the others. Waves were the battles, and the battles were waves."
Marathon strikes again
Indeed you will find the post that also breaks down the connection to the games on Destiny lore Reddit where much of what these guys are saying was long ago broken down by great lore scholars who just aren't streamers and unfortunately many times content and theories of theirs is passed off by some streamers as their own. You would be amazed if you researched there at theories you will find, well researched and cited that end up on a Creators video somehow.
I have only seen Evaze credit reddit lore scholars ever.
The dig at the Executives at the end was stellar.
Great video dude, definitely verbally shouted "wtf" during this one. Will leave it out of the comments and let others find out themselves
Venextron has been pumping out some really good content. He's worth a follow for sure if you haven't yet.
He’s goated when it comes to theory
Yesss! Ven fans unite!
He's the only reason why I haven't stopped following Destiny's lore.
@@FelixRaycher Same
Big disagree. Dude is basically the destiny equivalent of a flat earth CZcamsr. Totally insufferable.
Byf for the sleep thing I just wanna say that I have a rare blood disease and it is very hard for me to sleep at night without health anxiety that being said your videos take me away from my worries and put me in the story and lore you're telling. So I mean this from the bottom if my heart thank you for being the channel I fall asleep to almost every night. Will always be supporting you in any way I can.
I had an oh my god moment too when that insane reveal about the tree was said....that is...wow.
I really like the theory that unveiling was the witness’s narrative of what happened in the garden at the end of time, and it might not be fully literal. The witness sees itself as the “first knife”, wielded by the darkness for their ends against the traveler. It was the weapon that witnessed the start of this fight
Your Darkness lore video is actually my top1 go to sleep video. 2nd is a 10h video of a tent in the snow with heavy wind and a campfire
Coming here after the raid, the Witness admits that’s it’s not the winnower, just its first knife. Case closed.
We are in a giant custody battle between the gardener/light (mom) and the winnower/dark (dad). And the witness is our dads new wife who in it for the money.
I’m calling it. The winnower is going to help us defeat the witness but then she turns out to be way darker and more evil. Perhaps going out of her way to toy with people something much more sick. Witness is a calculus exterminator.
The winnower has grave mind vibes.
Yeah, He wants the game to continue, so it wouldn't be too big a shock if he gives us some help
The Winnower isn’t really evil though. They’re a fundamental aspect of everything, they’re literally the other half of creation, and their prime goal is to simplify everything down into (nothing?). Evil to us, sure, but we aren’t paracasual beings, we are humans, and we determine what is evil based on how we would feel if it were done to us.
The Winnower pursuing their prime and only directive, which is the ending of the game (I think?), is not evil.
@@MorganNull-uj6uuI don’t think that’s how it will be taken but we’ll see. If the big dark side of boss is like only bad in perspective then oof. Abit lame of an outcome.
Fantastic video Byf, listened to the whole thing start to finish. I LOVE your videos and how long they are. I don’t wanna surf tons and tons of videos. I want feature length videos where I can just set YT on my Fire TV and listen/watch or listen via Bluetooth headphones when I’m out and about. THANK YOU for not listening to the idiots that go “more than 10 mins of video, yea I’m out”. So glad you do you and make these videos this long and in depth. THANK YOU for being an essential part of the Destiny world.
It's ironic, 2 weeks ago I had probably one of the worst times from a health point of view in my life, I had horrible insomnia, I got a burning hot shard of metal in the eye and the hospital had me wait over night from 11pm all the way until 7:30am to forward me finally to a specialist at 12:30pm, and I had barely slept all that week. When this video came out it was the first time I actually got a good night sleep in a while, thank you alot your voice is very calming.
Byf, i got a crazy theory.
What if the gardener doesnt care about the Final Shape?
In unveiling, the gardener talks about how boring the flower game is. And then explains that it would be better if there was variance in the game.
So if this is true, then this isnt a conflict between the gardener and winnower, because in this current universe, whether the Witness wins or the Guardians win, BOTH the gardener and winnower win.
The winnower wins because there was a final shape, and the gardener wins because the final shape is different than the last one.
I would contest that in the given scenario the Winnower doesn’t win. The Guardians winning wouldn’t be a final shape, rather, a continuation of the game after a rapid conclusion was denied.
The "usual final shape" that led the gardener to form that opinion of the game was something like "the Vex appear and assimilate everything," no? You've got a point, then
@@ross6789 A very good counterpoint , actually.
However, that doesn't mean that the final shape won't happen, just that it will take much longer to come about. So, technically, the winnower hasn't really lost, just that its (the winnower) victory will be delayed.
And as far as we know (praise loremaestro BYF), the winnower doesn't really care what the final shape is. Just that, one day, it will happen.
No. That's stupid, and so are you.
I'm totally kidding. I think I peed a little from my mind being blown.
@andrewsabin7679 you're on the money with this last bit I think. Winnower won't care how long it takes, Gardener just wants it to be different. So they hand their powers around and allow indifference to see it's way to a result. And if we win, that result will lead to more testing.
When I watched that Venextron video when it came out, I believe I gasped the same moment you did, Byf. That stump has been there, in front of us this entire time. We just didn't know how to look.
For those times when you want to feel like a guardian sleeping in his tent as you heard Lore Daddy telling stories to the rest of the fireteam outside in the campfire.
That lore drop was as mind bowing as that first explosion that began the universe. Ah the implications, the final shape shall be a treat. Amazing work as always good sir 😊
Lorefather has posted and my body is ready
would love to hear a live cut of you and Venextron talking, like how you do with Unknown.
They should have done one of those lore discussion livestreams right before final shape like matpat did with fnaf and just invite a ton of lore creators to talk live and discuss all theories before finally getting the answers in final shape
the possibility that the black garden is THE garden, with the gigantic stump in the background and as part of garden of salvations raid possibly being the original tree of silver wings
thats....wow, I can't state how shocked I was when you revealed that. truly amazing work here and I hope this story line is paid of at some point, hopefully in TFS but if not hopefully in the following episodes
yeah thank Venextron for that one
When the fantasy game got a giant-ass tree in the middle
lmaoo
It does feel like the winnower might just be the god the witness follows. They may or may not exist just like the gods for us
Is destiny gods exist to a level…. And god is just a being so powerful it looks like a god. Oxy, savtha, and xive were hive gods. Not saying out god is real but for some people he is… (not me)
I'm thinking the same thing but the way the Deep itself spoke to oryx is very un-witness-y.
Anyone else notice that the witness said in the final shape trailer “we need a god killer”
I’m not that Deep into the lore but I’m pretty sure the witness can kill most gods and I’m pretty sure that the witness doesn’t want to kill the travelers so what god is the witness to kill?
Which trailer was it? Like, specifically. I checked the reveal trailer, the Journey into the Traveler trailer, and the teaser and didn't hear that anywhere
Yes it does. It wants the traveler super dead. It wants to kill the traveler and take her power for themself
@@void-stareiirc it was in Part 1 of the ViDoc
I think it could easily be referring to the Gardener or the Winnower, but the point is both of those entities want the game to continue - the Witness wants to freeze it. Therefore, both are enemies to the Witness… and at this time the Witness has his foot on the Gardner’s throat, or so it would seem. The Winnower though? Where are they?
@@dravendarkplays9607 I thought it just wanted to control the traveler and specifically the light
My name is Byf, Subscribed because your videos are always awesome!
The Winnower exists, it's not the Witness. The Witness is the knife.
BTW I CALLED IT
I mentioned that the Black garden had to be the original garden for years. And now this comes out. No one will admit I'm right but thank you for this confirmation.
Careful. The iterations about garden refer to thee place where life springs from. In the set with Gardener n Winnower or whatever, comes a particular word: It became VEXED! toward the pattern of life comes, death comes--repeating. It left. A theory is that the black garden is one reality/universe birthed from THE GARDEN (which may be nonphysical dimension, just as the taken are pulled into a realm or dimension) and here is where the traveler was sent to terraform, perhaps the oldest one. The entities fought and left a stump. Was the fighting by they, or by vex and another group influenced by Gardener/traveler formless one Winnower??
@@natcoo8153wait wait wait, are you suggesting the VEX took over THE GARDEN?? Or this garden?? And are you saying “The Garden” as in the first garden ever??? Like not Adam and Eve garden, but the first universe garden?
@@SullyCortez ideally--theres a garden that only exists in their realm and then gardens that exist as a universe with race of organism. The vex were created out of the chaos when the two were fighting in a garden, and they survived in different places. Some of those vex found their way home to that garden called black garden . But lore describes a garden of the cosmos. Idk if Bungie meant this be ambiguous or simply black garden is the garden of creation
“The life in the garden asked a question…. The Vex were the answer”
From d1 “the vex aren’t invading mars they are going home” to the garden it makes so much sense the original seeds were spread far and wide at the destruction of the tree creating new timelines and as a defence mechanism the garden called back the perfect final shape. As the vex can travel across different timelines and different dimensions it would make sense that they got that power after being called back to the garden.
Byf I have been watching your content for years and I gotta say, please don’t ever stop, you make some of the best content out there man, love ya take it easy
Thank you Byf, I’ve been listening to your lore for YEARS, since the very beginning all the way back to Destiny 1. I had a long drive here in America, and listening to you talk about the lore just makes the hours fly by. Thanks man.
So I wonder if we're that "Different Rule" to the flower game.
Yeah, my thoughts exactly
Been looking forward to this one!
Brilliant video. This is the most surprising and excited that I've been for lore interpretations for a very long time. Brilliant both of you.
29:30 "The Waves were the Battles and the Battles were Waves"
-Pathways into Darkness (Bungie 1993)
I've only just started to listen to your videos as I sleep, makes it so easy to focus on something
this video makes me happy at a personal level cause i can take a teenie tiny small grain of credit in the much larger picture. I was the person who asked Robert Brookes about the Unveiling and whether or not stuff had been retconned :D Happened during a digital press room a while ago.
im glad PC Gamer published Bungie's reply on this topic cause otherwise it would've proven difficult for it to reach the international audience (i write on a Spanish outlet) and eventually spring all this conversation. Amazing video as always, Byf!
I like Venextron's content because he reminds me of the older lore channels, when they just said "fuck it" and slung around ideas. He's a lot less accurate than people like Byf, but he gets one's brain spinning.
Glad to see you still doing your thing! I remember you from wayyyy back in the early podcast days
I really do try not to fall asleep, it’s just that your voice is so soothing. I end up dreaming Destiny related dreams which is awesome for me. I then have to watch the video again the next day when I’m wide awake lol.
That an object is found on a black fleet ship doesn’t mean it’s black fleet tech; they have gathered things that they didn’t invent.
Who even invents their tech? I assumed it was all just technology from the precursors.
So the trailer came out…..
W byf understanding I love lore and rewatch videos while conscious but destiny lore in a soothing voice is a great combo for sleep background noise
Loved how you connected so many different sources!
If this isn't a typo on behalf of the transcriber who posted this online, in the text of "What Gives Me Pause" at approximately line 40, we are given this line; "The Deep comfort hums through his skin, breeding a resilient calm". "The Deep" here is capitalized as a proper noun may be. I understand this is rather meta, but from a writer's perspective this could be an artistic hint towards the entity behind the metallic seed.
Are WE not the final shape?
By the rules of the sword logic, we have been, and presumably continue to be the strongest.
And yet, we use our power to protect the weak, not conquer them. To co-exist
The final shape, as I understand it, is simply the hypothetical perfect state of the universe and the ultimate purpose of the precursors, and how to reach that final shape differed. And beyond the precursors and the Witness, the concept of the final shape also differed, as seen with the hive and their sword logic. Should also be stated that the Hive are more or less a product of the Witness's manipulation
By the rules of the sword logic we wouldn’t use our power to protect the weak, we would defeat everything until only we are the strongest beings left. Yes, we use our power to destroy powerful beings, but only when they challenge us to do so
No we're the payback. That's what guardians are.
Byf, your videos help me fall asleep, however, conversely, they stimulate my brain in a manner that nothing else does. Your videos match my type of abstract hypothetical thinking that calms me and gets my brain working. I’ve been watching your videos since I was about 11-12, and you never cease to reel me in for more mindplay with Destiny lore. So thank you for being here, thank you for spreading this wonderful world around to all guardians, Per Audacia As Astra, keep up the good work, man.
Really nice video - a subject I've wondered about for a long while now.
Thanks for the great content, Guardian. You breathe life into, and pull focus onto, a story told across a thousand grimoire entries. Your work is appreciated.
28:48 to add even more evidence, compare how the Deep spoke to Oryx versus how the Witness spoke to Xivu Arath in VI. Conviction.
The dialogue is written completely differently, and it just adds to all the rest of the evidence piling up for the Winnower being it's own proper character.
i think the witness is trying to become a winnower. where the precursors found the idea of a winnower? probably seeing how chaotic the Light could be. If i remember correctly, the traveler spoke to a speaker in a dream that a 'false sister was approaching' i.e. the witness and not it's counterpart, the Veil. I think there is a possibility that the Veil is a physical representation of the winnower if there is one, similar to how we believe the gardener is within the traveler. That's my take.
Thank you for the long videos listen to them at work or doing stuff around the house. I haven't played since Taken king so nice to hear about stuff i have missed
Thank you for the message and the add your lore reading is great to unwind to and decompress and helps me sleep and when I wake up I typically watch it while I get ready for work.
I’ve said it from the beginning of my interest in Destiny lore and it will remain until there is no more Destiny lore. For all Savathun’s lies she made it blatantly obvious she was in it for herself. Oryx was in it to be King. Xivu is in it to war for the sake of war. Very rarely has someone aligned with the Darkness lied to us. They’re honest almost to a fault. I have more reason to believe Unveiling than I do to believe anything I’ve ever been told about the Traveler. We only use propaganda and scheme when talking about the Darkness. Yet from the very start we’ve been lead to believe that the Traveler is almighty and all powerful, that we must at all costs fear the Darkness. That nothing good has ever come of the Darkness. That when the Darkness comes everyone will be slaughtered and the world will be drowned in the deep… yet the darkness came and didn’t even attack, in fact it sat and waited and bestowed gifts to us, and spoke to us very plainly. Very honestly. I’m not your friend. I’m not enemy. I’m your salvation. And for so long I wondered what we needed salvation from. And then Immaru said something that I’ve always thought. We swear we’re so different from the Hive. But I have a single weapon that has erased more than 2 million things from existence. That’s just one weapon. I’ve slaughtered millions in the name of a God that refuses to even speak. Suggesting I need a mask or amplifier to grasp its words because my stupid human brain can’t comprehend it. I don’t like my intelligence being insulted, especially not by a ball that couldn’t even keep its self from getting captured by the Cabal, the literal ham fists of the universe…
I have used your videos to fall asleep for years. I always rewatch them the next day though. You get double watch time, I get a good nights sleep!
Thank you byf. Been looking forward to this video
Thank you. I do put these videos on to sleep sometimes but I also watch them awake.
holy fuck hyoooge byf just dropped. we eating good
After watching this video something in my brain clicked, what if we the guardians are the final shape, the ultimate beings at the end of the universe / flower game. If the winnower is what talked to oryx from the deep, in my opinion it must be the same being who created a duplicate of us in the shadowkeep end cutsceen. The manner of speach is very similar. The winnower is all about how life surviving by all means necessary, killing anything that stands in your way. It controlled the hive into the sword logic, it sent rhulk to become the most powerful of his race, it sent the witness to absorb its whole race and multiple other solar systems. What if at the end of shadowkeep when it talks to us and says its our "salvation" it is telling the truth. What if its nudged us down a path, ever since we have been able to pick up new darkness power easier than anyone else, all other darkness beings have to fight to get a sliver of power. Or commune directly with it to gain a god status power, like oryx and the witness. Since the winnower reached out to us i wonder if it sees us as the ultimate being, a being capable of both light and dark, a being of unrivaled ability to wage war and survive. we are seemingly going to kill the witness, which would mean that we become the supreme entity in the flower game/sword logic. We will have killed everyone who poses a threat to our life. What if to kill the witness we inadvertantly injure the traveler in someway. It would tip the scales of the cosmic balance in the winnowers favor. All from a small subtle nudge and some meddling from the shadows. And through its action it will have given us darkness, it will have given us the power to save our system, it will have become our salvation
No, the being that talks to us in the end of shadowkeep is pretty explicitly the Witness, having pyramid ships in the distance and referring to itself as "We"
No joke the best sleeps ever in when I put your videos playing, I choose some old ones so I don't miss something new
The winnower is always such a fascinating Topic in Destiny's lore. And I'm glad one of my favorite Destiny lore channels covered it again. Keep up the good work byf love ya.
It seems like the clause for outside control is what's happening. We are the gardeners champion and the witness is the winnowers champion. The winnower wants the final shape to stay the same and if the gardener continues with us the shape will change into something different and better.
But yet the winnower is supposed to be the darkness itself, but as we've seen from the veil, it cares not for what happens to it, even it's own destruction is fine. It feels much more like an object than the traveler.
Unless you want to say that the veil is some sort of "black heart" one piece of a much larger, unknown whole
@@dravendarkplays9607 I feel that the winnower and gardener aren’t known right now. The veil and traveler are just parts of creations from the two. We were given light so that the final shape could be avoided by beating the witness. It’s like a hierarchy of the gardener, traveler then us on the light side, and the winnower, veil, and witness on the other. One will do anything to achieve the final shape while the other will do anything to create something new.
The winnower wants the strongest to win the fight for existance. The witness wants everything to stop forever. Not really possible for them to be aligned. Assuming the winnower does exist.
Not really. If you think about the Witness is changing things in it's own image that isn't exactly how the sword logic works. The Witness is causing things to go stagnant which means there will be true survival of the fittest. That would still upset the Winnower
Jesus fucking christ the length of this thing
Its because you got the prefect voice to calm peoples mind mr byf i watched and listened to your channel for years cause they helped me sleep so much better, thank you loremaster Byf.
Your tm8s death at 25:58 was PHENOMINAL
Two things - In sobriety, we teach that expectations breed resentments. Its almost impossible to never have any expectations, but we can learn to put less weight into them. And some of the most well known, beloved comics, are never ending stories, & they shift, they change, they evolve. You may not like the modern stories when compared to the older stories, but no comic has been written for you alone, & video games are not made for any one of us. Don't demand that meet your expectations, don't be angry if its different. Life is filled with struggle & suffering already.
I think the Ahsa cutscene made it clear:
The Witness race was searching for a Winnower to counter the chaos of the Gardener (Traveler)'s. They ascribed the name Gardener to the Traveler. There was no Winnower, thus, they set out to find it in the universe. They came across the Veil, who was the polar opposite of the Gardener (Traveler), but it was not doing what they sought, culling the chaos because evidently chaos still existed. So they took fate into their own hands and ascended themselves using the power of the Veil to become the Winnower of their philosophy/theology. They will enact the simplification because they are the Winnower. Before becoming the Witness, there was no Winnower. They took it upon themselves because nobody else in the universe tried to intervene.
The tale of the dawn of time and the Garden are a half truth. I believe that the Gardener "became vexed" at the repetitive pattern of the Vex being the ultimate winner of the game because they expressed themselves and incorporated themselves as a connected network that essentially nullified the need for a multitude of evolution. The Veil, would of course favor this because a hive mind/collective is the function of the Veil as a repository of power formed of memory, emotion, and loss.
In parallel to this, the Witness accomplished the same goal but unlike the Vex, it could comprehend, harness, manipulate, and manifest both the power of light and darkness because the Gardener once chose them to be their gifted race. The Witness got to play both sides of the game all the while being able to see past it and is trying to forgo the game entirely.
The Witness is non other than the First Knife. But is not the Winnower.
I literally said that there was no Winnower, so they became it. The concept was something of their own design as that what they ascribe to the primal forces.
@@PixelleHearts Bro does not understand that this cinematic was to confuse us. It has been made clear in the Final Shape collector’s edition that the Winnower isn’t the Witness.
@@PixelleHearts Secondly, Unveiling is about the genesis of the universe. However Precursors exister AFTER the beginning of the universe because it was…in the universe. It’s the basis of an ontologic being, the Gardener and the Winnower existed before the Witness and the precursors. If not WHO spoke to the precursors and made them change their mind.
Driving to/from work for an hour - lore content is perfect for this.
Thank you Lullaby Lore Daddy 🖤
Personally i still believe the Witness is the Winnower, or at least the one we know from Unveiling
Ive heard the "I vs We" debate but the Witness can refer itself as singular like it did with Rhulk, "My Child", & when Rhulk was paraphrasing what the Witness said to him, he used "I" (found in Shattered Suns & Resonant Fury Mask on Hunter). If were also to include when Oryx spoke to an Entity when it possessed the unborn ogre, Calus did a similar thing on Glykon & it was the Witness he communed with. (Ikora also talked about this in WQ CE i believe) it's also possible that there is a single dominant personality within the Witness, as dialogue from the recent part 1 vidoc it said "THERE IS ONLY SUFFERING" without any of the other sfx with its voice, only a singular masculine voice.
I think many forget the weekly messages the Witness would send us in Arrivals, heres what Eris thinks of what the Witness was telling us:
"It preaches the philosophy of the Books of Sorrow, Yor's scriptures, and the unveiled fragments. The Traveler is a false creator, guarding its creations with false law. We are dead things made in the shape of the dead. The only true law is violent winnowing. Whatever cannot hold on to existence does not deserve existence. And so forth. At least it is consistent" (from the Singular Exegate lore book).
Sen Aret (i believe thats their name) talks about Unveiling & how Guardians prefer "chatty Darkness over silent Light", & that "many texts have been writen to give voice to Darkness" which we know to be the Witness (from Witch Queens CE)
Ahsa tells us in the Witness's origin cutscene that the Precursors "merged themselves into the salvation they craved" & what they craved, was a Winnower, & when Ahsa said "Winnower" one of the Witness's motifs play. There's also the final text from "The Winnower" in Unveiling, "I'll come over to hear your answer", which is then followed by the Pyramids in Arrivals with the Witness trying to speak to us. If the Winnower is separate from the Witness, it doesnt make sense for the Winnower to say that & for nothing to happen. & if the Veil was the Winnower, why didnt the Precursors simply call it that like it did for the Gardener? Or claim it was coming over when it didn't.
The Witness is a master manipulator & has kept its own servants in the dark about its true plans, it couldve been doing the same to us. A possible small thing to note is shape language, the Gardener is known for its complex shapes like a circle while the Witness is known for simple shapes like a triangle or diamond (simplicity vs complexity), even its silhouette matches that of a Pyramid, & Eido & Mara talk about its iconography a bit, the Precursors/Witness sees itself as the Gardeners opposite or something similar. It is the Gardener & the Witness thatre in opposition, not the Veil, even the many mural art for the Witness aesthetic only showcases the Traveler & the Pyramid, nothing of the Veil. It's been talked about many times even by Joe & other devs, this is a story about the Traveler & the Witness , the circle & the pyramid, & how theres "more to tell beyond those 2 after TFS".
& Edio herself said her understanding of Unveiling was imperfect, but i think its wrong to say the Winnower showed no malice, hatred ,etc. Aswell as calling itself "the defector, the destroyer, the one who takes."
"Those who describe false moral equivalence. Now, I could not possibly communicate with you unless I could emulate your mind, and with that mind, I acquire the moralities that govern you. By your laws, I and all my followers are evil. Evil. Since that first molecule coiled in the primordial sea, not one Earthborn thing has known a monster like me."
Also it feels very backwords to go from "The Darkness is evil" to "the Darkness can actually be used for good its just been the Witness behind it all along & the reason for it's corruption/evils." To go back to "The Darkness is evil & Oryx communed with it instead of the Witness even though Calus communed with the Witness in the same mannor that Oryx did". & if "the Winnower" is a separate entity from the Witness, why have none of its followers spoken of it? Its always been the Witness as the master.
1:10:53 I disagree with the statue being there before the Witness's creation when it features architecture from the Witness. The whispers that emenate from those feminine statues are the same whispers that emenate from the Witness, you can hear it in Lightfalls opening cutscene w/o any music. I'm also surprised you didn't cover the final page of "Inspiral". When it directly talks of events related to Unveiling.
The Precursors saw nothing was being winnowed, so they became the Witness, to winnow & "shape the Garden"
I agree with all of this comment and want to add a counterpoint to Byf's idea that the Witness creating Unveiling would have been pointless as an indoctrination tool, given that Stasis was already effective. While the Witness succeeded in turning two of the Kentarch 3 it failed to turn the third and ultimately failed to acquire agents among the Guardians. Unveiling and subsequent communications may have been directly influenced by this failure and created as ways to try to increase the odds of success when it granted more Guardians the power of Stasis.
@@samspin429I completely forgot of the Witness corrupting the Kentarch, thanks for the reminder
I see why u may believe this but the witness and winnower contradict each other. Winnower want no involvement and the flow of reality to shape itself, no involvement. The witness is all about involvement and shaping directly. If anything the witness' ideologies are closer to the gardener than it is the winnower.
@@jebaited05 While we know that now, but before we knew what the Witness was and what it believed it could pretend to be and pretend to believe whatever it wanted. It feels no need to spread its real philosophy, it doesn't matter as long as the Final Shape is reached. It spoke to us in Arrivals and Beyond Light to corrupt us, not because it thought it would achieve the Final Shape but to torment the Traveler and humanity (source: Entelechy). That plan only works if we voluntarily join it, and it knows we already know what it told the Hive, so it fed us an expansion of that in order to appear trustworthy.
You really are you great for getting to sleep, but I always come back and rewatch the videos while I'm awake so I can actually absorb the knowledge you provide.
Never been so amused by a add as here. GG well done and Lore Vid amazing as always
i find it incedible the amount of research u do! Good Video
Glad to see Venaxtron getting some praise. I love the way he looks at things
With the first ViDoc this week (Confronting Oblivion) I'm now convinced that the gardener is either the Traveler, or somehow within it. In it the Witness states "we're in need of a God killer", presumably that is referring to the Gardener, assuming that it is the Gardener speaking to us during the prismatic reveal (the "light of hope" quote.) And I think this makes more sense if the Witness is the Winnower, since they supposedly battled in the Black Garden, perhaps the Winnower is unable to kill the Gardener on its own? Thus the need for a "God Killer".
Ooorrr maybe its just scared and doesn't want us to kill it instead.
Honestly… I’m starting to wonder if the Witness actually is referring to the Winnower. The Winnower does not WANT the game to end - the Witness needs a weapon to stop it.
Another banger of a video!! Much love Mr. Byf greatly appreciate all your hard work gathering and presenting such a grand story arc in your narration wow brother amazing! Thanks so much! Into the Light Guardians!
Venextrons video is really good, glad you also watched it, the winnower is one of the most interesting topics Destiny has and Im sure this will be a very entertaining watch!!!
I actually have rules for myself; fully, while awake watch a Byf video, then I can fall asleep to the video, with all the relaxing voice and music it brings.
my go-to videos of yours is Dynasty & The Complete Story of Destiny
I've lost count how many times I've watched those.
Can't wait for the updated Story of Destiny.
Lol. glad I'm not the only one who sleeps while watching Byf's videos. It's interesting, just there is something hypnotizing about this guy. Could be the information overload. Anyway, cya tomorrow...
I love putting your videos to fall asleep, you got a soothing voice 😊
An hour long byf video just dropped? Hell yeah, todays a good day
I am reminded of Uldren’s line from our first interaction, regarding the Black Garden.
“You want to turn it into a battlefield…”
An intriguing observation if it was once a place where gods fought.