Here's The U.S. Army's New Service Rifles and Ammo
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- čas přidán 21. 01. 2023
- The U.S. Army has selected Sig Sauer to build and deliver its Next Generation Squad Weapon variants to replace its M4/M4A1 service rifle and M249 Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW).
Sig Sauer has won a 10-year contract with an initial delivery order worth $20.4 million. And under this contract, the company will supply more than 250,000 rifles and light machine guns.
Photo/Video by Sig Sauer
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I love SIG-Sauer, and everything I've heard about the new ammo sounds good. Here's what I can't figure out though:
-The US military went from the M14 to the M16 to the M4 partially because of weight, so we're going from a 6.5 lb rifle back to a 10 lb rifle
-We're reducing the amount of ammunition we carry from a standard 30 round magazine to a 20 round magazine with an individual round weighing almost as much as a 7.62x51mm round
-From a cost perspective, this new 6.8mm is probably going to be a lot more expensive than the 5.56 we're currently using
-From a lethality perspective, I admit the 5.56mm M855 green tip will never be as lethal as the 7.62x51 BUT, we have found ways to mitigate that. Black Hills 77 grain Match and the Mk318 are two examples. I can see something like the 6.8mm being special issue for a couple of MOS's but not general use
-If we want to increase the weight, reduce the capacity, and increase "lethality" of our weapons, why not just use something like an HK417?
Just my .02
You must have been a USMC or Army "light" Infantry. Reality really kicks you in the nuts when you open your entire enlistment first enlistment in the field. Deployments, training tempo, and the pack weight start to take their toll on your body. 3/4 of the work, is getting to the fight.
What they don't show you in the movies, is that the extra machine gun ammo, mortar tubes, mortar ammo are distributed among the company during force marches to the battle area. Sharing is Caring in the grunts. You get to share and pass around that extra weight.
If you think you have the intestinal fortitude to live the life; do it. It's the only way you'll know. It's a like of sleep depravation and constant physical pain that you learn to live with. You will have injuries-thats part of the game.
-you are making too much sense. They have to figure out a way to cheat the tax-payers out of their hard-earned money by looking for solutions to problems that do not exist.
@@realitynow4342 Actually I'm just a Coastie who just really likes guns and hiking. I got a cousin that was a ground pounder, so he and I talk this stuff all the time. At least when I hike, I'm only carrying my own stuff.
@@nightmark2120 I can see your point about range and lethality, however from a practical standpoint I still stand by my statement of if we wanted to do that, some sort of AR-10 platform would serve better
The total weight of a fully outfitted M5 will be a pound less than a fully outfitted M4A1.
The M5 doesn’t have a PEQ because the M157 optic fills the roll or a aiming laser after it’s new update.
The Army will have operational 25 round magazines as rumored 28 round magazine which is inside the same body of the 25 round mag.
Along with this weapon select the squad rolls will be more defined with gunners having larger roll of suppressive fire to allow for movement and riflemen being pushed to provide accurate fire meant to kill.
It’s basically the opposite direction the Marine corps took with their squads having grey lines inbetween rolls
Also for reference the M5 weighs 2 pounds less loaded compared to the USMC’s M27 loaded
Just grab the popcorn and wait for the recall. It is Sig we are talking about after all.
Still waiting for our recalled 416’s to come back. It’s only been two years.
@@blackhawk7r221 The HK 416? That is the only 416 I am aware of. Those had a recall?
@@AutopilotAndChill Yes, the HK 416. I know, pretty off topic for a Sig thread, but I was probably drinking beer.
I would rather go to war with a colt than some European origin garbage
Still waiting on all of my recalls
The rifle is now called the XM7 due to Colt having a patented M5. Also note their designing new versions of the rifle using more titanium to make it lighter in the future. However that is just a rumor I heard to be fair.
Titanium is not lighter than 7075 aluminum for the receiver set. It is lighter than steel, about half as much, however, you don’t want Ti BCGs and barrels for obvious reasons. Those are the main heavy parts on the SIG XM7.
@@LRRPFco52 I doubt they will use Titanium because of its cost and difficulty to machine. but with titanium you can save weight against aluminium because you can make the part thinner.
@@Robin-my2gz Biggest problem that those of us who have actually carried 7.62 NATO rifles and their magazines in a dismounted Infantry capacity is, where do you put all the mags? Even before modern SAPI plates and IBA, it was very hard to carry a basic load of 7.62 NATO.
With the M-14 when it was issued, it was 4 mags in 2x M-1956 mag pouches and 1 in the gun (5 total). This was based off the 100rd basic load from the M1906 and M1 Garand days, but that ammo was carried in stripper or en bloc clips in ammo pouches on the older web belt kit.
Once the M-16 came along, dudes could carry 4ea 20rd mags (8) in the older M-1956 pouches, along with 12 mags in 2x bandoliers slung across their chests. That was a common load in Vietnam, with 20 mags total, or 400rds.
M-1967 allowed the same, but with nylon gear vs canvas. LC-1 and LC-2 came along and we started using the 2x M16 ammo pouches with 3x30rd mags each, for a 210rd basic load with 1 in the rifle.
I commonly carried either 3 or 4x M16 ammo pouches, with at least 1 SAW pouch. In LRSC, we would carry double basic load as SOP, or 420rds. We used a combo of LC-2 and AK or British Chest Rigs over that, LBVs with LC-2, or original Eagle or unit-built chest rigs.
If you ever get a chance to load up 4x20rd 7.62 NATO mags even in a micro chest rig, it sucks. Running around with 11 or 12 of them really sucks, but you typically have to carry about half of them in your assault pack.
Each empty magazine weighs quite a bit, even 7.62 PMAGs. They are much thicker than 5.56 mags, so you feel it more as the mass is farther away from your center of gravity.
This is all true still even if they get the XM7 weight and size down in the future. It’s a non-starter for most of the duty positions in an Infantry Company.
On the verge of WW3 is a terrific time to switch to an oddball cartridge which no other military or branch uses.
AGREED!
Follow the money, that will tell the real story for the switch instead of a tactical reason.
The level of corruption from this administration is shocking to say the least. They literally armed the Taliban. Just like Obama armed isis . 🤫 All done on purpose to make America look bad / equal with everyone else.
The 6.8 mm round basically packs a stronger punch than the 5.56. It's to combat modern body armor. That's one of the reasons for the new cartridge.
surreal , lets make 99% of the rifle inventory obsolete, the whole point of the 556 NATO was the supply chain ,,army will have less amo than civilians lol
They don't always choose based on optimal performance. A lot of politics go behind these decisions.
Thank you for your totally not parroted, totally original and independent thought
Another issue being "Optimal with respect to what criterion".
Politics? When the M16 started in Vietnam there was a bunch of politics.
Politics = Profit. That's literally it
As a Glock person, the Army actually got this right with the M17. It's really a great pistol and after shooting it believe it to be a better platform.
Just like they did many years ago when the US purchased the Beretta pistol. It came out on 60 minutes many many years ago
Keep your eye on what Delta Force and SAS choose for a firearm. That will tell you what the actual best choice is.
Seriously??? That only makes sense if resources are unlimited and logistics are perfect!!! What makes sense for SOF isn’t what you want as a standard service weapon!!!
It’s unnecessarily heavy and largely overpowered. A DMR or LMG sure makes sense. However 5.56 is gonna be cheaper to produce on a on a level that 6.8 would take 30 years. If they had tried necking 5.56 to 6.5 abd jack the pressure to 65,000 psi. You have awesome cartridge on par with 6.5 Grendel and more tan enough to extend range lethality and armor penetration.
There just no reason for adopting a full power rifle cartridge!!!
And 80,000 PSI??? If that had existed in the civilian world for years sure. However as it stands it’s barely proven in a larger context. The whole thing is an awesome weapon and cartridge just not as a mass produced weapon. It would have been perfect for say WW2 or early Cold War.
They’re going to use what the weapon they grew up on
different mission set means different best. You look at the mission and then go with that as best. What is needed for dealta and sas is different from the regular soldier's needs.
They'll go with what they know, because reliability is key. It doesn't matter how good these platforms are, they will be foregone for a few years to come until everyone is comfortable with trusting them.
Sig has the handgun contract and now a rifle and light machine gun contract… sounds like corruption and kickbacks to me.
Fighting with a suppressor as a standard is a game changer for the shooter. Less overpressure, noise, and recoil, provide a less stressful shooting environment, which leads to dramatically increased accuracy. The ability to audibly communicate more clearly with team members during a firefight (due to less in-shooter noise) cannot be over stated.
Suppressors don’t magically make a rifle quiet, it’s still loud, you should still wear hearing protection, and you still have the sound of the bullets breaking the sound barrier to deal with. Unless you are using subsonic ammo, which you probably won’t be unless doing some covert operation.
This reads like an ad or some shit for a suppressor lol
You still have to deal with blowback, I think most people would rather deal woth extra noise over not being able to see over your watery eyes
@@EarlOSandwich again, unless you are shooting subsonic ammo, the effect is minimal for most military munitions. A 5.56 round is going to be around 160-170 db. A suppressor will bring that down to 130-140. Anything over 85db is very loud and with prolonged exposure will cause hearing damage, 150db is going to cause immediate hearing damage. The bullet alone, suppressed or not, going supersonic is like 100db or so from the sonic boom.
For reference, a chainsaw or leaf blower are quieter (around 120db) than a suppressed 5.56 round, and those are very difficult to talk around. Now imagine a squad laying suppressive fire…
If you want something that is actually quiet try hearing subsonic 300BLK or 22LR from a suppressed gun. Suppressed subsonic 22LR is incredibly quiet. There’s a lot of great tests of suppressors on CZcams you should check out.
For various reasons, suppressors are more for hiding your position to your opposition.
Suppressors should be openly available to civilians also. Makes no sense in 2023 to restrict them like this
Good for Sig man. They're doing some amazing things and keeping America, and much of the world, safe with these innovations.
basically a battle rifle but more expensive....
Yeah... why didn't they just get a custom made AR10, that would be a 7,62 M16 kind of deal
@@FrauleinMuller999 because they wanted over match. and the that round is not able. and its too heavy
@@FrauleinMuller999 because 7.62 NATO is inferior to .277 Fury in every way
@@Tacet137 That's what the Army and Sig say, but is it really true in testing? I've found a video already where someone tested the supposed lvl4 penetration and it didn't turn out.
We know the Army will lie to keep good PR. They did it with the "First Female Rangers", the Woke epidemic and likely are with this, too.
@@Tacet137 Problem with the .277 fury is cost is much more using three different metals just for the cartridge. Also at much higher operating pressures the barrel life will almost be half the life. This means much more frequent barrel changes. Now on the civilian side one can purchase the somewhat new 175 and 185 grain Remington match grade ammo in .308 now the difference is less marginal.
6.8mm was about what the British suggested a general use round for NATO after WWII. After extensive testing. But the US went with 7.62 then 5.56. Its been a long journey. 🇬🇧
This is a super cartridge with the psi of a 50 cal. so even if the military kept 6.8mm, it wouldn't have the power of the new cartridge and the rifles would have to be replaced anyways. The new cartridge puts out the same psi as the .50 cal.
I defiantly preferred the SLR over the SA80 😀
The US most of the time they are 2nd to none. Hard to change that even when others are superior.
This 6.8mm round is a necked down 7.62 cartridge, so it's basically like adopting a rifle in 7.62. The ammunition weights the same, magazine capacity is the same and recoil is the same, kind of, these rounds have more pressure.
@@harrybuttery2447 interesting, not heard it put that way before.
The key to this rifle is the next generation Vortex optic. It will turn The average infantryman into a dedicated marksman
Only concern is Korea,Russia and several other countries have the ability to detonate a small nuke 40,000 feet above creating an air burst emitting EMP waves out to a 500 mile radius. This would fry all those optics and render them useless.
I will stick to the etch reticles with BDC or Mill holds.
All the better to enslave the populace, which is the real goal
They’ll have Sig optics.
@@EgoFiveFiveSix No, Vortex picked up the contract.
Yea, I saw a video with the Vortex optic.. range finder that auto adjusts the cross hairs to hit each target, even saves targets so if you move back to a saved target it auto adjusts your aimpoint. However, I doubt it will the basic issue item for everyone and just saved for dedicated marksman.
When I see guys that struggle with the 5.56 recoil at the range imagine with this new one lol
yeah but these dude trained with it and fight with it... not a larper at the range
I've seen 5'3" girls handling 5.56 just fine
Who tf “struggles” with a 5.56? My daughter was shooting my 300BO, standing at 8 years old.
@@MrMann-gt1eh beta males who think guns are icky
Recoil is a matter of weapon weight and experience of the operator.
US Marine Snipers had to shoot 120 rounds a day in training. No padding, just their jackets. That's quite a volume of fire at first. The determined people got accustomed to it.
I’m skeptical about the combat load taking a hit. With the m4 at least you can carry 7 mags for 210 rounds, but with this bigger round I’m guessing it’s around like 20 rounds a mag? Not great for fire suppression unless you put all that responsibility on solely the SAW gunner. New tactics are coming.
Magpul makes 25 round magazines.
LWRC, Magpul LWRC, and Beretta make standard 30 rd. magazines
@@MagicalTrout so what? the rounds are much heavier. A man can only carry so much weight. maybe for a medium machine gun this is good, but for every soldier? this is too big. we went away from 7.62mm for a reason. now we are repeating the same mistakes. its simply overpowered for what soldier most often require.
@@Robertsmith-un5cu I didn't say I agree with the caliber change I was just saying Magpul makes 25 round Ar-10 magazines.
Carrying a couple of extra mags never bothered us. Forced to carry a claymore, two 60mm mortar rounds, and two 200rd 240 belts did.
The first and only handgun I bought was a P226 back in 1987 was a former RCMP handgun. I loved that thing
What I have always loved about the m16a4 is that it's ability to penetrate body is completely inconsequential as it's so accurate and easy to shoot that with the right optics you could decide which eye to land a couple rounds in
I think the 6mm ARC would have been a more efficient option to replace the 5.56 instead of the 6.8 as the ARC is a lighter round than the 6.8 but still more accurate, flatter trajectory and hits like a truck compared to the 5.56
Is 6.8 ARC same as 6.8 SPC?
🤣 no. They can touch crap far but they ain't dropping anybody 600yds plus. Reason why .308 still reigns superior
They already use the 6mm arc. It's a barrel swap away. Why do you think they wanted a modular platform?
That's an interesting point of view. The US did create a 6mm squad automatic weapon round back in the early 1970s. They wanted tracer burn out to 800 meters and equivalent terminal performance to the M193.
Firearms are a result of a compromise of a group of decisions.
@Jamal Labarge I didn't know that, and that's also a good point. The Civilians think they know better than the military. They've been ragging on the Sig Spear since it won the contract. They said the grendel, the 6.8 spc, etc. Grendel bolts don't last long enough, and the 6.8 spc isn't needed bc they have the 300 blackout. It's a reason why the Sig Spear LT is in 7.62x39. They're preparing for a war with Russia and China. Plus, the 6.5 grendel ballistics aren't better than the 6mm arc. What people don't me is that SOF uses 6mm arc and 6.5 creedmoor in CQBR platforms, aka SBRs(😏). I'm apologize for the rant.🦅🇺🇸🫡
I own a 516 patrol, 716 patrol, p226 navy model, p320 m18 and a p365....i shoot all the time and never had a breakage or misfire...but, i keep them clean and tidy and well oiled...
You’re white and you say so. 🙄 Some whiteys can’t help themselves!
The P226 is quite the workhorse.
Served Army 93-97. Always carried HK. Loved my 45 USP and my P7m13…
The Australian Defence Force also selected Sig Sauer P320 XCarry Pro for the Sidearm Weapon System and MCX in .300 Blackout for the Personal Defence Weapon System.
Well sounds really good, I haven't yet had , nor used a SIG and do plan on getting my first one soon! They seem to have been going through a lot of testing to see if they'll be cutout for combat or not! That's a good start for me!
I love Sig Sauer. I carried my P226 1st gen for 14 years in the Marines and it never let me down.
Happy to hear this Devil Dog!!!
Semper FI!!!
Sig Sauer is a great American company, this will be great
There original a German-Swiss company.
It’s European and Chinese
@@BobLuvsBoobies its not Chinese in the Slightest its German and American
@@boldlord6937 It’s made in China
@@BobLuvsBoobies No. It's the American version of Sig company based in New Hampshire USA
Now they only need soldiers to use them. Problem is nobody is joining up. FJB
If your avg infantry is currently effective up to 500m with current optics, rifles ect... and you can push it up to 800m by equipping them with this rifle/optics... that is a massive advantage even if you cannot carry as much ammo.
Less ammo but more accuracy
@@TheRAYviewYT which is not worth it.
seeing what happened in ukraine war, engagement are rarely more than 100m. some battle even on point blank. this new caliber is not match with qurrent requirement
@@ebehdzikraa3855 what? In what world will the US allow itself to get trapped into a conflict without air or naval superiority? Russia has one air-craft carrier and it is a mess... meanwhile the US would have at least two carrier groups and hell, they might even reactivate the Missouri to provide indirect artillery support like they did in the Iraq war because the US actually has capabilities it can put forward... so once that is established either the enemy runs or dies in a bunker with a 1200lb bomb caving it in on them.... fixed positions/trenches go the way of the dodo very fast with armored columns flanked by air-support and artillery clearing anything they cannot handle.... the rifle is meant to push the line of effective engagement back from what is standard currently... because as it stands even the best main rifles in most militaries are only really good for about 300m... so if you can out-range, out-maneuver and blow up any fixed location... the enemy has no good options left for engagement.. which is the whole point.
Yes in open fields. Not good in the jungle or close quarters.
The MCX is a really good, well rounded rifle, we’ve used it in the uk for a couple of years now . Interesting it’s going to be rolled out to replace the m4 tho
They keep saying that and im just not convinced the M4 gets replaced at all.
This weapon so far is subpar to the M4/AR15 in almost every aspect. At least in 5.56.
@@brianrich7828 as someone who uses an m4 at work, I'd rather have an mcx/spear LT. Piston system is slightly heavier, but can fire much longer without need for cleaning. Folding stock makes vehicle ops much easier. Flared magwell makes for easier reloads.
@@drowsspeed1 I’d say field servicing,easily swapped parts. Accuracy,easily available ammo (plus ammo weight),are far more important. Not like there aren’t other AR platforms that have folding stocks,without proprietary parts and that are more reliable out there for less. AR18 is a pretty old platform and well tested. The spears look great,amazing really. Their operation is meh at best,the triggers are dogshit,recoil impulse is pretty dogshit as well.
@@brianrich7828 some of those problems go away with military adoption. Us and European special forces adopted the MCX/spear LT. If they keep it is the real test I suppose.
Ok we are waiting for a sale on 5.56 and .308 rounds. 😊
YES!
Good color choice. That brown finish is really versatile cause lots of earth is around that color . statistically .A few stripes of environment theatre matching paint of whatever sort is appropriate and it's blended right in . Less paint needed so less paint to rub back off
It's definitely fun to shoot, practically will be something that will show in missions
Yo!!! That Sig MCX Spear looks like my custom AR! That mag had me because it's 7.62x39, so is mine! I'm surprised The Army is going to start using 7.62x39 ARs like me!! 👍🙌
Here in the Philippines M16A1 is legendary the issued rifle to my fellow soldier.
Picked up an MPX first gen and it was love at first sight.
It will be cheaper to shoot silver bullets than those custom 6.8x51
Since Biden gave away millions of 556 to the Taliban, we need something to get the edge back. C'mon man
I agree.
Sig is on top! I'm glad I have their firearms
Sig has by far the most futuristic looking factory.
In October of 2022 I bought the new Sig 1 by 6 radical... Put it on my M4 Colt and man is that thing freaking amazing has an illuminated. In the middle... FireRed love that thing
I still wonder how a heavier, higher recoil weapons system can be an effective general purpose firearm, unless this is going to be restricted to select units instead of for all, because of the huge diversity of body types and physical capabilities now of those in service.
The guns and ammo exist to penetrate Chinese and Russian body armor at a decent range.
Well considering training is required it's either train to it or get out. The army doesn't have time to cater to every individual when it comes to arming everyone . Training will mitigate all of it. Regardless of your job you still have to qualify with whatever you're given.
They used to issue m1garands that’s like an 10 lbs rifle
The rifles meant to be that way 5.56 zip through people and they never realize they’ve been hit so they chose something that will literally knock you down when hit and go through vests
This rifle will actually weigh slightly less when fully kitted out compared to a fully kitted out M4. The optic will replace the function of some of the other attachments we use on the M4. The felt recoil doesn't seem to be much different from what I see based on the people who have tested this rifle on video so far. Now they likely couldn't get their hands on the new special ammo so maybe the results are a little skewed. The effective range of this weapon will give our infantry a huge advantage over other militaries if we need to enter armed conflict as well. most weapons used today on the battlefield by standard infantry are effective to about 500ish meters. I think us having an extra 300ish meters over the enemy would justify some of the negatives of this rifle provided it actually performs as advertised.
God bless 🇺🇸
Pick up a bible sometime.. God doesn't bless Global 🌈, he destroys them..
The remarkable precision and overwhelming firepower of modern military weapons are a testament to human ingenuity and engineering prowess. These cutting-edge tools are essential for ensuring national security and global stability.
Excellent!
Do they come with the new killer rainbow bullets?
6mm arc with higher pressure case/chamber would be a better choice lower recoil and weight, and I'm sure sig could build it off of the sig mcx spear lt. Leave the 308 sized platforms for HMG and DM
Plus better ballistics so it maintains energy at distance.
If they make a larger magwel and a larger bolt.
@Joe Brown 6mm arc is designed to fit in a traditional ar15 format. What would be the point of a larger magwell and bolt?
@@USMC177597 I've been shooting a Grendel since 2005. The mags don't feed well enough for a military firearm. The bolts break and are not durable enough for a military firearm. The AMU and military have looked at the same case size and rejected it 3 times and it will never be adopted by the military without enlarging the magwell and making a larger stronger bolt.
They pick the good stuff this time. 👍🏾
The best material for the soldiers👍
Remember the service history of the M14? Yeah.. that.
How many freaken calibers need to be created?!
bad move - keep standard rifle and pitols cal with a 50 for heavy machine gun
Can't wait to buy one of these for myself
cool, Canadian Forces haves used Sig for years, excellent weapons.
Bring back the M-1 Garand, the M-60, and the 1911and all will be right with the world.
A modern M1 carbine suppressed would be awesome.
I think I would still rather my HK416 for now, but time will time how effective these new weapons are.
Yessir you know it!! 🤙🏼
Interesting choices.
The new 6.8mm cartridge ballistics are so close to the 7.62x51 NATO cartridge I question adopting it.
M-14's worked for us, RVN, '66-'67, M-16's got us killed.
@@boondocker7964 …. I qualified M-14 in the navy. Enjoyed shooting it. Got marksman. Later qualified M-16 in the air force. Actually qualified on an original M-16, not the M-16A1. The original model without the forward assist. The only M-16 I enjoyed shooting was an A2 model with the heavy barrel. Because it shot straight. My brother was a vietnam vet. Scrounged up a grease gun SMG.
@@Idahoguy10157 We had a M3 grease gun and a Thompson making the rounds in the company, sold from this person to that one, the things were heavy, and rusted quicker than shit, .45 mags are a lot heavier than you'd imagine, plus, there was not a lot of resupply for a large amount of .45 ACP, scrounging went on, don't know where exactly the guns came from, could have been from dead VC, or someone at some time, stole them, just don't know.
@@boondocker7964 …l don’t think my brother shot it much. Said he couldn’t hit with it. It came up when we talked about M16’s. He was in an engineering unit colocated with the 173rd Airborne (?). His unit kept the roads open. He didn’t talk much about Vietnam
lighter weight but mor stopping power compared to 7.62x51 NATO
I’m honestly unsure whether they’ll stick or not, looks like a lot of recoil also. we all know how good the m4/saw platform is so will be tough to sell it to soldiers unless they are hugely better than what they’re using. The sidearm I see being used widely and maybe the m250 replacing the 240 but I don’t think they’re better than the current m4/249. Just my opinion
They don’t have to sell anything to soldiers, command says use this, they use this.
@@biglennyslastsight8759 like they did with the SCAR lol, the units refused to use it because of how bad it was
@@1JamesZ and they still get it on deployments lol, I would know but don’t take my word for it
Nice!
QUESTION - did "they" look into one caliber/round to replace the 7.62 and the 5.56 - say 7.62 necked to 7mm (140 - 175 g). increase pressures and all that would be needed is to replace barrels on 7.62 rifles.
The recoil looks to be LARGE in comparison to what they have now.
Well it helps when you hire a retired general to be on the board. Easy to get military contracts after that.
SUPER.. SIG. KING. BRAVOOOOOO.... ❤❤❤
I was never thinking that because of the price of a SIG (for example the Spear). But good decision
What’s wrong with the M855a1. And if you want to say, there’s not enough damage to flesh, there’s a reason that the original rifle is 20 inches with 55 grain. It does a lot more damage.
I’ve been in long enough to see us go from a m193 that gave us that legendary tissue destroying yaw effect, to a half assed M855 that was less accurate, couldn’t penetrate much, and was much less lethal, to a penetrator M855A1 that is overpressured to the point of occasionally breaking locking lugs, flies very accurately, penetrates surprisingly well, but sucks at killing. Often, we would see large entry holes a couple of inches deep, as if there was a mini explosion upon impact where it shed it’s copper jacket, then a fine laser hole through the body with little damage. And of course the penetrator just exited and kept on flying. Far less lethal than a 55gn 193, but far better than a 855 green tip.
Let’s just say some liberated 855A1 ammo made it home to use for hunting. I gave it away.
@@blackhawk7r221 So what you’re saying sounds like other stuff I’ve been told. Would you recommend I just use the M193 for my standard SHTF stuff since it seems to be more devastating. My only problem with that is what happens if I face level 3+ armor? I’d be happy to help liberate some A1 if you’d like to share lol.
SIG is a ELITE WEAPON!! 💯 RELIABLE AND DONT JAM 🇺🇸💯🍻🍻🍻
I ment sig
We shall see how everything pans out, seems like the "if it ain't broke then don't fix it" kind of thing.
The overall increased weight with ammunition and optics is what worries me the most. Perhaps, over the next couple of decades, lighter modular compromise options will be developed; or, perhaps, the problem will be alleviated with personal mechanical assistance (e.g., weight-bearing exoskeletons or drones). I also worry about what happens when the batteries run out.
Hope they put their all American pride and passion in every single one that rolls off the line !!! Remember our people in uniform.
$20.4 million for 250,000 rifles? So $81 per rifle? What am I missing?
10-year contract with an [initial delivery order] worth $20.4 million
i want to know how much they are a piece. On open market they are 8k.
I was going to write the same thing. I get a company may take a loss leader to get more work down the road. But at $81 per weapon they'd be losing hundreds per unit. Say the cost was $400 across 250,000 that would be $80 million loss. Seems unlikely
So, if you want to feel like a real 20's US Soldier in MW2, all you need is the FTAC Recon and a RAAL. Got it!
Ist not the FTAC,is the rifle you get from the Chemist in DMZ
M13b
Lol nerds
@@TodaysDemocrat 🤓
Can’t even imagine the under-the -table deals that were involved in this contract and “competition”.
Congrats Sig you deserver it. Im a fan of the LMT rifles as well, But they are expensive.
I'm an M249 saw individual gunner. All I hope is that the XM250 works it purpose and is better
It won’t, which is honestly a good thing for the impending civil war
Thing i noticed when i had my turn on the saw was that it needed to be hyper clean to function well. So i became an expert in cleaning it.
Just me that weapon system is garbage less ammo that means less than fire superiority. It has a lot more junk on it that we don’t need it’s not even simplified after me and Lucky to test it out. Yes, I like the cartridge but you should check out MCR that’s the belt fed air upper it’s a whole lot lighter and we can use existing lowers that we have an inventory. This thing will go away like in 14 about the rifle version for as were the light machine gun. I feel isn’t worth the cost.
@@12345678971926 i am just happy that the army finally is doing something about the 556 round itself. It is not a good round. I saw enemys get shoot, one of which 7 times, and they where still live and fighting.
This unit appears to have a reciprocating barrel like the GEN12 shotgun, self regulating gas, no fine tuning and probably reduces recoil felt like the Barret.
Also MG.338 by Sig, you show a couple clips of it as well. Not an replacement for, but MG.338 can be swapped for for .50Cal but weighs similar to m240 and the .338 ammo also saves a ton of weight...
SOCOM is running with them now, or at least in 2018 till 2020 last I heard. Gives us .50Cal power/reach at like 3/5ths the weight..!
Thanks for that info, brother. Been hearing for a while about the .338 (Lapua?) round as a replacement for the .50.
I’m for any upgrade for our combat arms guys. And awesome optics.
Do you have ballistics on the new 6.8 Fury?
@@duncanidaho2097 .338 Norma, not the lapua. They both have near identical size, but not too similar terminal ballistics (I’m no army person so that’s what i can infer)
@@ranmoru456 -thanks for the clarification. I later found out that it is the .338 Norma Magnum.
Nor do I know of the difference in ballistics either, but it sounds like a beast of a round.
Now I wonder if that mg will replace the 7.62 or .50 bmg in armored vehicles and tanks.
Have you heard anything on this?
@@duncanidaho2097 From what I know, no. Other than the fact that it's been purchased by SOCOM, there has been no further news regarding the weapon or its military operational usage whatsoever.
I have seen News video's the Ukrainians using the new machineguns in 338 Norma some are the General dynamics guns.
Ine video a Ukrainian gunner was hosing down the Orcs with a 338 Norma machinegun.
the Marines arent getting this, so logistics gets more complicated...
Aren't getting it... YET.
Us Leathernecks frequently either get the hand-me-downs or will wait to see how something works out. The Corps did also adopt the M18 version of the Sig Sauer P320 pistol where the Army chose the M17. And the Navy, Air Force, and Coast Guard also went with the M18.
@@Snapper314 actually the Coast Gaurd changed their mind and went off the DHS contract to get Glock 19’s.
“Pure level adversaries with modern body armor” isn’t referring to Russians or the Chinese like you think it is. It’s referring to armed U.S. citizens. These calibers are designed specifically to defeat all levels of legal civilian body armor. Food for thought.
I would have guessed it was referencing the $80 Mil. in weapons and gear Biden recently gave the Taliban.
Interesting that the 6.8 x 52 Carcano was invented by the Italians in 1891, 130 years ago. I recognise the chamber pressures are somewhat lower than the proposed 6.8 x 51, however this calibre has been around for years.
its 6.5 x 52, but I get what you're saying.
nice. Hope that the us get more German gear
Even though I'm not completely familiar with the 6.8x51mm round, I'm not surprised to hear that it performed better than the standard NATO 5.56x45mm round. I never liked that round. I am surprised however to hear that the 6.8x51mm performed better than the 7.62x51mm. I always loved that 7.62x51mm round. So, the US Army has been moving to have the 6.8x51mm as the standard round for the XM5, the XM250 and to outfit the M4 Carbine, M249 SAW as well the M240 machine gun with it also? An all purpose round!? Maybe I heard wrong. Anyway, as for the XM5 and XM250 rifles. How will these weapons hold up in extreme temperatures? How rugged are they? How long (or how many rounds) before the barrels get super heated; if the weapons are being fired in a hotter than usual environment? To what extent will rain and sea water effect the moving parts? Will they still fire effectively if dropped in the mud? And will that higher velocity 6.8x51mm round over penetrate in Close Quarter Combat (CQB) scenarios?
Technology is in the powder and the 6.8 case. Since it s a hybrid case design they can run the cup pressure to 80,000 psi which means they can get more velocity in that .277" projectile. We already know when we neck down from a 308 parent cartridge (308 win) to a smaller diameter projectile, you pick up velocity capability, just like the 6.5 Creedmoor is a necked down 308 to 6.5 with a 30 deg shoulder. Add in that extra pressure, a projectile with a good ballistic coefficient and perform load development with specific powder offerings to get to 80ksi and you get a significant improvement. Ideally the purpose of this is to have ammo YOU CANT GET. Your questions are elementary and lack true purpose for what is driving the need of this offering. Yes they will phase out the M249 and M240 because they are not retrofittable due to the higher pressure and specifically in the M249, the case is too long. They retrofitted a M249 with belted 6.8mm SPC II ammo which seemed to work pretty good but obviously instead built new weapons around the cartridge as intended.
The new round is being used because it's not just more powerful,but the bullets are moving faster.
my first internet gun exposure was that meme vids where they drop sig handguns so they hit the back and it discharges some years back. Now Sig has gotten the US military (and probably the whole executive branch) sidearm, and now the machine gun and battle rifle. THey'll prob take the assault rifle with the rattlers . . . because if the internets is to be believed, the XM5 / XM7 is the new M14 incident and time will have them delegated for DMR and regular rifle use will be either rattler / sig spear LT as the new M16 / M4 using either 6.8 or set 5.56 to consume the sea of stockpiled ammo.
We will see how good it is in time when our troops use it for a while only time will tell. I hope it works out I like this company have a good evening.
I heard that a special forces team had to take the suppressor off their squad automatic weapon because from a distance, the enemy couldn't hear the shots and didn't know they were being fired upon. From what I understand, the main purpose of the light machine gun in a squad setting is to keep the enemy's heads down behind cover. I would think then, even though it looks cool, the suppressor on Sig's XM250 won't be used for very long once it sees use in actual combat.
What’s wrong with the colt…. Doesn’t the US like ‘Murica?
This is going to be a problem on the battlefield. You can't have your 2 major power hitters on the battlefield, the Marine Corps and the Army using different caliber weapon systems, 6.8 and 5.56. Everyone on the battlefield needs to have a standardization of weapons systems that are inter-changeable by caliber, if not you are going to run into logistical nightmares. You will not be able to have Army and Marine Corps Infantry units fighting side by side. Someone will always run out of ammo.
That was my thought as well, but the Marine Corps is focusing more on missiles, drones, etc. to prepare for island fighting. This seems like a bad idea.
Weapon squad gonn be lit
I like the sig sauer light heavy machine gun in 338 Norma magnum. A twenty pound gun with ammunition with a 2,000 yard range.
I wonder if it will end up like the M14. Too heavy, too much recoil for automatic fire accuracy.
Yeah I dont get it... their peer adversaries they're aiming for fighting, should be fought in close quarters, because they all rely on rockets and regular artillery for combat
Ive been saying this to anybody who will listen. I really dont think this is the solution. There is a reason EVERYONE switched to intermediate cartridge firing rifles.
There is a reason why intermediate cartridge and full auto fails is XXI century, body armor makes intermediate cartridges obsolete and optics advancement pushed engagement distances far enough that full auto is not used anymore
@@Tacet137 "There is a reason why intermediate cartridge and full auto fails is XXI century, body armor makes intermediate cartridges obsolete"
Many different kinds of body armor. They can't all be able of stopping or absorbing strikes from "intermediate rounds".
"optics advancement pushed engagement distances far enough that full auto is not used anymore"
Ok.... maybe.... Seems to me that there is still a place for "Oh shit!" shooting.
A WW2 weapons blend is required. In your 11 man squad you had a couple with grease guns, a couple with M-1 carbines, a few with M-1 battle rifles, and a guy with a BAR. You had everything covered from MOUT to long range, open desert to heavy woods.
This will turn into a soup sandwitch in time.
This new rifle seems like a perfect replacement for a designated marksman, not the individual soldier. So many rounds are spent keeping an enemy suppressed so you can move or attack, just because in vietnam it was a large number of rounds fired per enemy killed didn't mean those rounds used weren't useful, having half of what you can carry with 5.56 and the increased weight doesn't make sense for every soldier. Overmatch doesn't mean anything unless you have enough machine guns and DMRs at the squad level and it seems there were only 2 m240s per 30 men which was the real issue, not the individual soldier's issue. The LMG will help, especially if it can replace both the M240 and M249 and be lighter. The rifle will be great to bring in more DMR roles at the squad level and bump up their capability whilst still allowing them to function like a soldier with an M4, but I don't think it makes sense at all to outfit everyone with it whatsoever. You may have overmatch at range, but that is for the last war, what if the next war is CQB in cities like Ukraine. Now you have a heavier gun with less ammo carried and the function it was built for is now redundant.
Great they pick the manufacture that builds them to fire on their own!
As good as the M7 battle rifle and M250 medium machine gun are - and they are very good in an evolutionary manner - the "fire control system" on the M7 is truly revolutionary. In addition to the 1 -8X scope there is the fire control "magic box" that sits on top of the scope and displays target distance in meters, a lighted aiming point and a target compass heading. The "magic box" (made by VORTEX) has several sensors including a laser rangefinder, temperature, inclination up/down, air density (station pressure) and an internal ballistics calculator to utilize the sensors in producing the extremely accurate lighted aiming point ("firing solution"). THIS CREATES A 70% - 80% HIT PROBABILITY AT 500 YARDS WITH A PROPERLY TRAINED SOLDIER! This greatly increased lethality also means fewer rounds of ammo need to be carried so the load out of the heavier 6.8 X 51 ammunition could be nearly the same as the current combat load of 5.56 NATO ammo.
NOW... will NATO go along with this ammunition change?? I bet Poland will be the first to say "Yes". Their mostly flat terrain necessitates a longer range cartridge than 5.56 NATO ammo and also longer range than the current 7.62 x 51 NATO round as well.
-> Will the US adopt the SIG medium machine gun using the .338 Norma magnum round to replace most M2 "Ma Duce" heavy machine guns"?
Combat tactics and marksmanship are more important to winning battles than fancy high-priced equipment. Creating casualties is the priority. A casualty from a 7.62, 5.56, .50, or 6.8 is still an enemy taken out of commission. Body armor? Maybe an issue in certain scenarios but I imagine in most scenarios the US will not face an enemy with significant body armor. Body armor is not cheap.
America always looks for vastly expensive tech to overcome it's poor standard of soldiers. In the end it made no difference as they have lost many wars to peasants with 80 year old weapons in sandals
Body armor may not be cheap, but a peer armed force will absolutely have armor.
China has just order 1.5 million body armors for its troops. I wonder if that's reason behind the US's change to bigger cal ?
@@supergoodadvice853 plates are designed to save your life, but they will not stop you from becoming a casualty
After 21 years in the Army, I learned that most issues like this revolve around political decisions rather than strictly what is best for the fighting force. Military-Industrial Complex generates campaign donations, too. Soldiers do not.
I have a sig P225 hand gun but I really want the MCX, its an awsome gun, light, short, acurate, and very reliable, I'm talking 177 slugs not live,,but they are made if the same materials and weigh the same,
Sig Sauer is a top notch gun, I'd love to use these in battle. I got stuck with the m203, I hated it. I loved the saw, but the sig replacement looks good.
You got stuck with a rifle undermount single shot 40mm grenade launcher? What's you M.O.S.?
@@jasonweiss2773 weirdly enough, they speak as if they had no idea what they are talking about
"Sig Sauer is a top notch gun" Sig Sauer being a company
Someone hating the M203? Damn, he reallt out here hating the miniature mortar? Additionaly, he says he "loved the saw"
If he was stuck with an M203, wouldnt that mean he was a grenadier... which means he would have barely any time on the M249?
OP os a fraud.
Sounds like a 13 year old gamer
@@History_Nurd internet stolen valor is the worst.
You ought to delete your post, and not run your mouth about what you'd "love to use in battle". That sort of behavior is stupid and insulting.
Remember if you have clear sight of the enemy so does he
Units might have it in the next 7-10 years. Go army
Meanwhile the opposing country is watching this taking notes
schleswig-holstein is where sig sauers from, also side note its been used to name a ship that literally started ww2
nope, this is Sig Sauer INC founded in Virginia USA.. different company lol there are three different companies with similar name
@TheKruze88 These guns are American lol The American company is SIG Sauer, Inc. Its predecessor SIGARMS was founded in Virginia in 1985 to import and distribute SIG Sauer firearms throughout the United States: Its headquarters were moved to New Hampshire USA in 1990. This company was renamed SIG Sauer, Inc. in 2007, ( no connection to the European brand of Sig )
i love mi SIG ORIGINAL 🇨🇭 A210/ combat 1977
"s=schweizerisch - industrie - gesellschaft(companie) neuhausen am rheinfall kt schafhausen ch" and no germani
sauer o usa😉😁
Dose this mean that the rest of Nato have to change as well , lots of nato countries can't afford the change or is this just the US
No
Sig makes sooo many weapons to date… yet nothing better replacing the likes m107 or aa-12? Something to consider sig sauer!
As a retired Army Acquisition guy, it looks like a lot of poor decisions were made in both the RFP and the selection. They bought them without any field testing. Specs would have been leading edge 25 years ago but are OBE now. Replace the M4 and M4A1 with a rifle that is essentially the same weight as the Garand and M14, that the M16/M4 replaced, not smart. Then replace your basic load of 210 rounds (basic load is 7 mags) with 140 rounds due to weight. Chrome line the barrel, when nitride finishes are both better (more accurate) and cheaper? Hmm, that auto targeting/ranging Optic was never going be able to do what it was being advertised to do. It seems now it is too slow to work up close, maybe even too slow to do the job at range.
It must of been a long road to even get to award.
@mrob456 LOL, quite the opposite. Requirements are now completely under the control of the JCS without any input from the Services acquisition people. Only inputs JCS are getting are from their cronies in Defense Industry which presents opportunities for corruption. This acquisition follows on the heels of the very similar SCAR program which was a gross failure in combat battle for the same reasons this program will probably fail. They chose a winner without competition and without testing.
More 5.56 bullets don't mean better if the bullets can't penetrate level 4 body armor.
@galvinstanley3235 The M855A1 bullet will penetrate Russian and Chinese body armor out to 600+ meters and has good accuracy at those ranges...tremendously more accurate and lethal than the green tipped M855. According to one account, when we first arrived in Afghanistan, we would have the enemy standing up at 400 plus yards taunting us to shoot at them. We were one of the first units to arrive with the new M855A1 and with the accuracy and lethality of this round, they stopped standing up by our third week in country.
Who's going to be wearing the body armor this new cartridge is designed to defeat?
probably should issue the body armour to your teachers and students at all american schools. will see much more use there
Vests and plates are standard combat uniforms for all first world armies. Our peer adversaries all have them. Shocked us to see how many enemy combatants in the sandbox had them.
@@hardmcshaft7931 I smell a troll..
At least these weapons are made here in the US.
Because of the load difference the tactics will change. That is for sure.
Way to go Sig Sauer, but does it come in rainbow colors, and pardon the pun will this trigger any of the users?
It comes with a free case of bud light.