I Tried To Beat Stockfish With 3 Knights Against 1 Bishop đź
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- Äas pĆidĂĄn 1. 08. 2022
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Pro tip: If you have 2 knights, don't try to look cool and promote your last pawn to a knight too and you will save yourself some sweating.
Unless your opponents have all the pieces except some pawns and no knights
Unless you're Hikaru and are bullying your opponent with a 7 knight checkmate because he refuses to resign
Lmaooooo
Unless you're Hikaru doing the disrespect speedrun
@@siraaron8650 Yes. Hikaru playing against 700elo bullying them sounds about a monday. Hell for sure make a video series on where he goes boxing against 5year olds wearing some million dollar disguise and knocks em out in a row.
Bishop: Wait it's not about the king?
Knights: Never was
OMG, plot twist of all times.
Lmfaooooo
It's not always about king, bishop man.
I had 6 games with 3 knights against a bishop. Now i know how i can win it! Thx!!
I have never seen a bishop get trapped in an endgame like that, especially not against 3 knights. It is actually crazy to see what Stockfish can do in bizarre situations like that.
That's not stockfish, it's the tablebase.
@@maxscherzer9521 đ
@@maxscherzer9521 Even a 20 Depth Stockfish plays the exact same moves as the tablebase in that position.
Stockfish is almost as perfect as a table base in almost all positions. There are very few exceptions to this.
@@happygood18 Does'nt stockfish use tablebase anyway?
@@quarksandaces2398 You'd think Stockfish would revert to a tablebase whenever there are seven or fewer pieces on the board. However, if it did that, the response should be instantaneous, and there would be no need to show the level of analysis. So what's the engine doing exactly?
That trapped bishop is pretty wild
Once I saw the strategy was to separate black's king and bishop to prevent forced trades, it made more sense.
Thats what I noticed too
After it got close to taking the bishop. That level is beyond human comprehension.
This is just like coitus interruptus. I would like to see the whole sequence all the way to the end.
Would you rather play:
(1) *MOST* of a game of chess? ... or...
(2) *ALL* of a game of chess?????
@@simonmultiverse6349 The point is if you can avoid the opponent trading their B for one of your N's you should win because KNN vs K is a draw except for trivial positions.
I really appreciate the authentic "figuring it out". Often times I think that seeing the process is much more valuable than the answer.
Stockfish is very stressful to fight.
But I like playing against him when I have an advantage and heâs at a disadvantage.
to be accurate :
3 knights is a forced checkmate within 20 moves (max).
As a comparison,
2 rooks = within 6 moves
1 queen = within 10
1 rook = within 17
2 bishop = within 19
1 knight + 1 bishop / within 35
2 rooks I can do within 2 moves.
@@reubenmanzo2054 try to put a rooks in bad position then
@@reubenmanzo2054 That makes zero sense unless you intentionally set it up to be within two moves. Which isn't what the OP is talking about, they're naming maximum possible moves needed for an effective forced mate in each scenario
2 rooks are too over powered
3 moves, more of
Lol bishop and knight are eternal rivalries. I've seen stockfish using the same idea here in KBB vs KN endgame to trap the knight
KBB vs KN is actually possible for a human to win, at least if the human is a top GM - I remember Caruana once had it and managed to win. Don't suppose any of us mere mortals could do it.
This may not be the most instructive video, but it sure was interesting and entertaining. I wouldn't mind watching similar setups, for example: 2 knights and a bishop vs a knight.
the knight can be traded off for a knight as a bishop and knight is a forced checkmate
How about King and Queen vs King, 2 Bishops and 2 Knights.
i have noticed long ago,,that chess is not a game about the pieces,its much more about the space,and what you can do with your owned space in the board,really fascinating
same with real life
music is the space between the notes, chess is the space between the pieces
. . . well - somehow it's all about the space the K has . . . and always remember: space (time) is curved around mass . . .
more space more opportunities, same concepts applied to videogames like csgo, valorant etc.
@@juniorTheDog1 even martial arts like jiu jitsu and wrestling are all about space
I guess Stockfish knows that to have any chance at a win you'd absolutely have to eliminate the bishop by trapping it versus trying to maneuver around it. Very interesting indeed.
Cool to see how it trapped the Bishop. Love the Ai intelligence
Tablebase, not AI. Just computes every possible thing that can happen.
Itâs just an engine but a max Stockfish can still beat Magnus in 20 to 25 moves. So either way. Itâs beyond our understanding.
@@kingsolo6241 not in 20-25 moves
@@Avocado3699 yes Stockfish will beat any human in 20-25 moves.
@@kingsolo6241 no
Fascinating. I thought @16:20 Black should keep the bishop on the long diagonal, because the knight cannot cover the whole diagonal. But in that case the King gets trapped and mated.
OH MY GOODNESS THAT IS AMAZING.... Totally glad I kept watching; was not expecting such a beautiful method of domination. Who knew what could happen with three knights?
Alternative title: Horses beat up a king while a random bishop they invited watches
My takeaway is: separate bishop and king, whenever all knights are on non bishop Color squares, take space from the opponent, whenever on bishop squares, use checks to force an extra move over the bishop (since king moves) to get the knights onto non bishop squares or on squares that cannot be simultaneously threatened after one move (pin/skewer/fork) (or take it directly against imperfect players)
there are some really cool variations of this i found
so acc to stockfish (i used the lichess engine on default settings)
3 knights vs rook is a win for the knights by 0.1
3 knights vs 2 knights is a win by 0.4
3 knights vs 2 bishops is a win for knights by 0.1
3 knights vs a knight and a bishop is a win for the knights by 0.2
Note: you do have to play around with the positioning of the various pieces a bit for it to calculate these values
also this stuff is super cool
like theres all sorts of variations of this that i can think of now
-4 knights vs 3 bishops
-4 knights vs queen
-5 knights vs 4 knights etc
Hello Nelson. Do you know of an App to set up random and interactive end chess games (like some of the ones you showed before). The App that I have plays a complete game from start to finish, but I am looking for random play with few pieces on each side.
A good one to try that could actually occur in a real game is 2 bishops vs knight, as far as I know it is the only 2 minor piece vs 1 minor piece that is a win
I believe u can always trade one bishop and it's a draw
@@fahimfuad9326 nope it has been proven by tablebase that the stronger side always wins, though sometimes it takes more than 50 moves. Forks can be prevented and a temporary "fortress" in the corner can be broken down
Most useful endgame to know!
That was fun to watch but brought back memories of trying to force checkmate with rook and king versus king
Isn't it like the basic endgame ? You keep king in a box and shrink it until you can checkmate with rook coveres by king ?
After the first constellation I already thought doing the same thing but with the big nuisance of the bishop is going to be near impossible so maybe first eliminate the protector instead of king hunting and hanging the win.
From your position at 12:00
1. Ndf4 B somewhere on the b2-h7 diagonal (bc King can't move)
2. Kf6 B somewhere on the b2-h7 diagonal
3. Nf8 Bg6 (Bg6 is forced to prevent #)
4. Now take the bishop N8xg6
Mate in 4.
I was yelling at the screen when you backed off from f4, lol. I didn't see the mate, but I saw the bishop issue. Great vid, as usual!!
same xd
6 Bishops vs 4 Rooks? Will that be a total mess on the board?
How about 120knights vs 156 ping pong balls?
@@r-trooper942 it wont fit...
@@KRwhitenight _Ping pong balls will find a way!_
Rooks are seriously undervalued. Despite a 1pt difference, I played king and 2 rooks against king and queen and 2 rooks slaughters the queen every time.
@@reubenmanzo2054 the Queen has a lot of forking potential tho. I won many games with Queen vs 2 rooks. The trick is separating the rooks
I got a chess add before this video and I thought that was the video until the skip ad came up
at 12:30 Ndf4 would have worked to trap the king, if Bg8 you can throw in Nf5+ and checkmate pretty soon after
That separating bishop from king and trapping it is one of the most amazing things I've seen in 40 years of chess. Amazing how the idea is to win the bishop, while myself (and many players) would just try push the black king back (and pos fail)
The knights were looking at the king the whole time, so the bishop felt safe.
He didn't even show the end
the idea behind the stockfisch is not that difficult to realize. you know you win three knights against a king and the solution is just to get rid of the other piece. and the deeper ones behind just how do I win the bishop and that can only be achieved by separating the king from the bishop. to put it briefly separate the pieces prevent the bishop from going to king and then trapping the bishop. All in all it was a very interesting video and I like the idea behind winning games in theory and winning them in practice.
I once tried to checkmate my coach with two knights and didnât understand why he was laughing, and then he explained to me, by the way, if the opponent has at least one pawn, then there is a chance to checkmate) I saw such games played by grandmasters. By the way, I also shoot about chess, but I have a peculiar content, who are tired of ordinary chess, come visit)
Two knights only sometimes win against king and pawn - whether it's a win or a draw depends on a bunch of factors like which file the pawn is on, how far advanced it is, whether it can be blockaded and where the kings are. Never seen any detailed theory on two knights against more than one pawn, but I'd guess most positions would be drawn - in order to win, you'd have to capture all but one of the pawns while keeping the last one blockaded far enough back to convert to a won position.
i know you!!
That was very interesting and intriguing!
From 12:36
Nf4 traps the King, Black can only play Bg8
Nf5+, Black's only move is Kh7
Nf8+, Black's only move is Kh8
Ng6 Checkmate
In some mating patterns stockfish will sac a knight and make the bishop act as the pawn and deliver checkmate with the bishop making the last move because the king has no moves, wild.
Really interesting. I would like to see more of these endgames where the material count is equal but one side has (a) major piece(s) and one side has minor pieces. Although for this one, even though the material count is 9 vs 3, technically for an open board, the bishop could worth like a rook, like 4.5 points or sth
Queen and pawn against 2 knights, 2 bishops?
@@reubenmanzo2054 No that would be 10 vs 12, not fair. Queen and 3 pawns might work
@@JustAnotherCommenter Queen (9) and pawn (1) is 10. 2 knights (4) and 2 bishops (6) is also 10.
@@reubenmanzo2054 So you're saying a knight is worth 2 points? Do you even learn chess? Bullcrap.
@@JustAnotherCommenter What reason is there for the knight to be 3?
By looking at endgame scenarios, we can construct the value for all pieces from first principles.
Pawn: being the standard piece, 1pt. I think we can agree all other pieces are worth more than the pawn.
As demonstrated in the above video, 2 knights can't force checkmate, whereas 2 bishops can. Therefore, bishop must be greater than knight.
Since 1 rook can force checkmate without requiring another piece, apart from the obvious, rook must be greater than bishop. Now, there's a certain point line to force checkmate, if you're at or above that line, it's possible, if you're below that line, it's not. That line quite happily sits at bishop plus knight, since bishop and knight can force checkmate, so we can safely sit the rook there.
You'll notice that aside from the pawn, I haven't assigned any values yet, but here's what we have so far: B>N, R=B+N.
The queen has the movement capacity of a rook and a bishop in 1 piece, so we can sit the queen at rook plus bishop and then plus 1 to account for the fact that the queen only occupies 1 square compared to 2 squares for rook and bishop.
So, the final formulas are: B>N, R=B+N, Q=R+B+1.
If we set the knight to 3, as you've posited, then since bishop is greater than knight, it must be at least 4. This in turn puts the rook at 4+3=7 and the queen at 7+4+1=12. I think we can agree those values are wrong.
However, if we let the knight be 2, this leaves room to put the bishop at 3 (tick), which makes the rook 3+2=5 (tick) and the queen 5+3+1=9 (tick).
If we let the knight be 2pts, everything else falls into place.
Thumb rule: A bishop can prevent checkmate against 3 Knights hence the only way to win is to first win/eliminate the bishop on/from the board.
Nelson can you do this with a horse and Bishop because I know the process, but it's super hard and I'm wondering if there is any general tips to get the king to go in the proper corner. There is something with a triangle and cutting the board, but that means nothing to me when I can't direct where I want the king to go.
We say horse over here too (Sweden), but in English it's called knight. đ
Damn I should get back into chess I'm better than a NM, (at least a USCF NM). I subbed tho because a chess streamer who works on endgames is a winner in my book. TY
19:84 the 2 safe squares are for the king to control
Three knights vs knight is win too. Its very interesting consider that weak side only need trade knight for knight and secure draw, but they cant
I really like these endgame scenarios. Are you able to mate with KQ vs KR?
it can be pretty difficult but yeah
Do more stockfish videos!
pov: one of you knights found the ded queens crown and became an Amazon
@11:48, analysis board says you have checkmate in 8 here, so u were doing it correctly up until letting him escape and keep a permanent fork.
I think he moved the wrong knight when delivering the check.
Thats so mind blowing
6:50 is knight f7 king g7 not checkmate? or are you not allowed to check with your king even though their king legally canât take yours as it is defended?
U can't check with a king
The trick is to drive the king to the board's edge first, not to checkmate, but to prevent him from ever helping his bishop, then trap and capture the bishop, then checkmate the lonely king.
4 knights vs 1 queen
what about 4 Knights vs 1 Queen I think that would be super interesting to see as I found this problem also extremely interesting especially stockfish/tablebase's idea how to solve it
I once did queen vs 2 knights and 2 bishops. It's been demonstrated to be winnable from either side.
You can actually force a king in a corner with 2 knights, you just can't force a checkmate unless your opponent blunders mate in 1. You'll stalemate before you get to checkmate.
is it possible to checkmate with 3 one-color bishops (all light square bishops or all dark square bishops)
No, youâre king canât cover both escape routes
No, i donât think so. Any competent opponent would just keep their king on the other color and you canât checkmate with your own king.
You could fill the whole board with light squared bishops and its still a draw. Even if your opponent purposely forces themselves to the corner etc.
nope, it is still draw by insufficient material even if you have 9 one colored bishop or however many more. Even if the opponent play completely bad moves they can't get mated.
Why didn't you show the end of the tablebase?
What program are you using that allows you to play against the computer from an arbitrary position?
Stockfish
@@plop_plop_plop Yeah, that's the engine, but I'd like to know the name of the GUI
@@viljami.haakana.laulut i use lichess looks similar to this
@@plop_plop_plop stockfish is the engine
@@viljami.haakana.laulut probably Chessbase or a browser GUI
You can checkmate with two knights vs a king and a pawn. Only if the pawn isn't too advanced obviously. You have to block the pawn with a knight until the right time. You should do a video on this.
What time stamp did the checkmate occur?
18:22 âStockfish is sooo cleverâ. Certainly, but the tablebases are *not* Stockfish. In fact, SF is known to be pretty bad at long, complex endgames, unless for those âSyzygyâ tablebases.
First, Queen vs Bishop pair is draw or win?
Queen vs rook and 2 minor pieces?
Queen vs 5 pawns in fifth rank (either 1 island or 2 islands of pawns)?
Then, what about seirawan chess? Is the elephant (knight and rook piece) worth 9 points? We could see endgames with battles between rook vs elephant; Elephant and queen vs 2 rooks and 4 minor pieces...
it's scary and if the future with real robots like terminator! đ±đźđ€Łđ
20:10 what about black king b4? It would force white to protect with the king,then black bishop c8
He said when you find yourself in an endgame with 3 knights and a bishop lol this would be the most disrespectful way to win
You had a mate in 8 at 12:14, you were going a different route to Stockfish, but were still winning! The original move you considered, Ndf4 was the correct one. I believe you thought the king could escape to g5, but that square is protected by the knight at e6.
What if you have two knights, and bishops of opposite color?
Bro the way he named the sections of the video đ
When black moved to h3 I think was a mistake. The king was not in check and it cut off eacape
Is there any reason why knight moves this way?? It is symbolised by hourse face and they usually move very straight in a direction.
no one really knows, even in the oldest known versions of chess knights already moved in L-shapes, my guess is that people thought it was an interesting piece and so the knight never unchanged
I saw a checkmate in nelson's position
Me remembering he can fork the Bishop and the king!!
11:27 I'm amazed he didn't see F5N:H6, forking the king and bishop.
If he lost a knight then he couldnât win
Greatest plotwist ever
Excuse me if i look stupid, but why didn't the king captured knight c5 at 20:24?
At 15:04 you could have played knight to e4 (check). Am I missing something?
How does that stop black's idea of shuffling the king between c6 and c7?
If hikaru was here he would have casually been like
" This knight here mm mm, that knight there uh uh, mmh mmh, uh uh, is it a mate in 3? Wait, here, here he goes there and here....huhh...lets go we got the win"
Bro when I saw a fork and he ignored it I was so mad
my first strategy would be get everything on a black square
this is brilliant ... thought I'd switch off after the first 10 seconds but then I got more and more drawn in and then Wow!! How do we know that all those table base solutions are "trapping the bishop" ideas? Too much to check out .. maybe ask an AI to do it for us??!!
could anyone suggest what chess board i could buy, i am a beginner and i want a new chess board so i can play chess with my frienda
friends*
You can win with only 2 knighs if you know how to force the king to move in a side
wow, all those 3 knight vs. bishop endgames I've drawn, now I can win them! This video should easily double my rating. :P
Where I can play against Stockfish (max level)?
11:28 He had a chance to fork his king and bishop but he did not. Was he only focusing on pushing stockfish to the corner or actually he just was pressured
You mean kh6? It's still trade and stockfish won't let you checkmate with 2 knights
I think a cool chess change would be promoting pawns to kings, and u can only win if all your opponents kings are captured. So say u are white and have a pawn on the f7 and his king is on E7 and u have a bishop on H6. The opponent moves and checkmates your king. But u have the move pawn to f8 (promote to a king). The king on E7 is in range to kill your new king on f8, but the bishop on H6 is guarding ur 2nd king so ur opponent instead of winning with checkmate has to retreat his king cuz it is his only king and his king is in range of your king to be captured. So instead losing to checkmate u have 2 kings and his king is on the retreat.
Checkmate by Rooks is a systematic process of controlling rank (or file) in front of the enemy King, assuming the opposition, and giving a check to push the enemy King to the wall for checkmate. An 800 Player can do it. I do not see any systematic approach for three Knights, only a nebulous general strategy. It will require a 2000 Player. As per Three Knights versus a Bishop, I see problems with the 50 Move Rule.
Do 2 knights vs pawn
force bishop tk the edge, then trap it
at 12:29 tell me if I am wrong
d5 -> f4 (king is stuck, bishop is only piece that can move), h7 -> g8,
d6 -> f5 (check, only one move), h6 -> h7,
e6 -> f8 (check, only one move, h7 -> h8,
f4 -> g6 (checkmate)
Okay, then h7->g8 is a blunder.
5:08 nelson chatgpt confirmed
I was under impression it is possible to eventually checkmate with 2 knights, but not within 50 move limit.
Only if they have a pawn you can blockade on their side of the board with a knight. You have to essentially force the king into the area with the blockaded pawn, abandon the blockade to create what would otherwise be a stalemate, but since the enemy pawn can advance instead of stalemate you can position your pieces to checkmate. Without the blockaded pawn, you can never force them into a situation where they have no escapes without also letting them stalemate. To avoid stalemate, you have to create a hole, which lets them continue indefinitely.
2 knights vs pawn, depending on the position it can take until 110 moves to force the mate
15:13 why didn't play g8?
knight f7 at time 12:41 led to a fork no matter which way the king went
How do i make my knights look that way? whats the name of those pieces?
what means nm
Hi Nelson,
Try to beat Stockfish HCE Max with 3 queens
and Stockfish HCE Max with normal setup
Your rooks will be queens.
You will win for sure!
Stockfish is the precursor to SkyNetâą.
You can win with 2 knights if the opponent had a pawn in mid.
Try this one:
Stockfish vs you, but stockfish a
Has a queen but nothing else, you on the other hand have everything but a queen.
6:00 Find mate in 4
At 7:14 you should have put the Nf5 to Nh6 that would have been check mate
Yes but he played a different checkmate. I don't see what's wrong.
I was just saying đ
I can't believe he missed knight to h6
You can force a king to the corner with 2 knights and its easy but can't force a checkmate