Well after (3) weeks using the Icepower1200AS2 kit with Bluesound Nodi as streamer/preamp/DAC I am so impressed. This is best amp I ever owned! My Thiel CS2.3 speakers have never sounded so good. Thanks Guntars.
I own a set of black Thiel CS2 looking to get back in 'services' , hum...That stereo amp look promesing! Maybe with my old Qued preamp or a nicely built DIY tube preamp? 🤔
I own a combined dual monoblock with a stereo kit in the middle of the steelcase. It delivers 1200 watts per channel for my dual subwoofers and 620 watts per channel for my top system consisting of two Seas L17REX/P and one centered Aurum Cantus G2Si ribbon tweeter. They sound perfect👌🥳
I have been using a 50ASX2 at my desk for a long time. It has been reliable and sounds good through my speakers, which are DIY but are like Amphion Ion with upgraded drivers.
I have made a stereo amplifier from ICEpower 125ASX2. It was a very good 100W/channel amplifier and sounded better than many industrial samples. To improve the sound, I used an INA1650-based balanced preamplifier. But 1200AS2 is a next-generation design with proprietary Class d driver chipsets. There is a significant sound reproduction tolerance jump. And of course, working so far away from clipping it is capable to drive complex speaker loads without sound reproduction detail loss.
I have studied and tested a lot of amplifiers and currently coming to the conclusion that the latest generation ICEpower and Hypex solutions are ending amplifier evolution. We're exceeding the human hearing limit and better specifications mean nothing. The optimum home user amplifier is a low-noise 2x500W amp that fits all possible usage scenarios. The next investments should go for preamp/streamer or active speakers solutions where we have audible improvements for our money.
good review Im looking for some amp moduels that can output 3000W @ 2ohms any idea how much power this amp will make at 2 ohms... my subwoofers are 1500w@2ohms and each sub has 2 drivers...any recommendations.
at 5:03 there was mention of standby consumption, as i never had good experience with the auto sense (on off) circuit in all my amps i keep my amps always on. standby is when amp is only in standby mode, if you listen to low level as i do most of the time, its the power usage when at 0 to 5 watts output that matters. in the data sheet page 16, P idle: 35 watt that matters. also got power efficiency graph at page 23, ca 35% efficiency at 5 watts, assuming that i calculate it correctly listening at 5 watts output is 35 watt idle draw plus 5w output at 35% is times 3 to get 15watt. 35w plus 15w is 50 watt for low level listening. that is very high and why most of my amps run hot at idle.
1200AS2 has a dedicated second small power supply and stand-by is working well. Wake up from signal in my experiments did a good job as well. I did not have any complaints. Idle for 1,2kw system is 35W and it is a bit too high to leave the system always on. I would suggest a 12v trigger option if you are not happy with signal sense. Check how your signal sense is implemented in your system, there is 2 type of VDD 5V voltage. You should use for standby management 5V low consumption stand by pin. Signal sense may have some problems if the preamp is noisy, but the 12V trigger is rock solid. Of course, you need one more cable in your system. For professional applications, there is a limit for standby power max consumptions. If I remember correctly 3W is the max for energy star-certified systems.
@@guntarssmits2104 in the past "Wake up from signal" feature has been bad for me, and currently i own 3 class d amp with the feature but more options to adjust. have not got my hands on the newer icepower, only have icepower 200asc right now and i had to bridge some pins to disable the feature, but its also the most cool running amp i ever had. got purifi nad c298 power amp and ncore plate amp from hypex. both with some adjustments but really hard to wake them up so i gave up and let them always stay on 24/7. i use signal sense, as i use a digital dsp unit from minidsp as a preamp and no option for 12 volt trigger i think.
@@sudd3660 For time being I will collect some statistics from the customers and then I can tell more about this feature. As lab. experiment PC -external sound card and amplifier signal sense were stable.
Are the other icepower models from the AS Series the same quality than the one you used? I consider building a amplifier but I really don’t need that much power and also I wouldn’t be mad spending a bit less money for a less powerful model. Best regards and thanks for the great video
No, alternative integrated boards with the latest generation chipsets and Quadro-balanced architecture exist. Believe 500W is not much power even for shelve-type speakers you will have some headroom that's it. It was a problem with class AB efficiency and most of the Class AB amplifiers are about 100W. Normally for floor-standing speakers, we need more power but it was expensive in the past. I was testing setups with 40RMS power small speakers and they sound lovely and safe. Board is built with low sensitivity and you need a large input signal (3.5V) to go for full power
Thank you so much for your work. You are providing really helpfull information. However, one issue has not yet been conclusively clarified for me, namely the question of what the situation is with input buffers. To make the rather analytical sound of the Icepower boards a little more "analogue", many recommend tube buffers or op-amp buffers with TI IC or discrete OP amps. Is there an "in a box" solution with an AS2 or ASX plus inbuild buffer board? Thank you so much!
Let us define input buffer meaning. It is an electronic unit with a high input impedance of 47kOhms or more and a low output impedance of 50-150Ohms, the capability to handle high overloads and low distortions. 1200AS2 Board has a good 47kOhms input buffer and it does not need other preamp circuits. Boards like 200AS2, and 125ASX2 have relatively low input impedance of about 5kOhms and there will be improvements from the input buffer. I made a buffer board based on a TI INA1650 chip with 100kOhms input impedance and 150Ohms output impedance. There is significant quality improvement working together with 125 ASX2. A good option for a preamp is a modern DAC which meets above mentioned requirements. It is not important whether you have a lamp or other technology preamp. The key is a high input impedance and low output impedance of the preamp to be able to drive the power stage. THD below 0,005% (Typically 0,0005%)
Yes, 2000AS2 is a fantastic board. It is identical to 1200AS2 but with higher output power per channel. Single channel is capable of delivering 2KW, Stereo 1KW per channel. The connectors and layout are exactly the same. My Kit TCR1200 can be used for both boards without modification. Wires can handle 4 KW/channel. It was a clever solution to use a PWM fan for cooling because 2000AS2 has a higher idle power consumption and it may be wise to use the thermal paste to improve the thermal connection with the chassis Other vise board is identical to 1200AS2 with the same performance and architecture. I Have a german customer who builds an amplifier using a 2000AS2 board and a TCR1200 kit. He mentioned that his system has infinite power headroom and I believe it. 1KW high-quality power per channel for the home user is a lot of power.
@@guntarssmits2104 thanks for the reply! I have 2000AS2 myself which I use in mono-configuration. They are built with only the best internal-wiring and connectors from Furutech and ETI. The headroom and slam is incredible! Utterly transparent and clean sound! I have owned many expensive AB amps from known brands, but these ICE-power amplifiers best them all! They are also an amazing match with my Pass Labs XP 20 preamp! 🙂👌! Keep up the good work my friend! Very informative and knowledgable channel with absolutely zero BS!
Is it possible to integrate VU meters in the front of the housing ? I’m quite interested though the design is missing the aesthetics to convince my wife of setting it on the low board instead under it. Thanks 😊
When we are talking about next-generation amplifiers with high probability we will move away from shiny box designs and moving signal indicators. That place is taking modern streamers and DACS with phone APS where you have all meters and many more. The amplifier should become invisible and be placed as close as possible to the speakers. This is also my concept. TCR1200 has a built-in Wake-from-signal function that allows you to place it remotely from your front-end equipment, When the signal comes to input amplifier starts operating. You should not switch it on. After 18 minutes (minutes not seconds) of idle, it goes into sleep mode and consumes only 250mW waiting for the next moment when the signal is applied to the amplifier input. The simple answer is no there are no future VU meter designs from me.
im currently building a pair of speakers with intergraded amplifiers (icepower 700AS2) In my case, where the whole speaker is made from wood, where should i put my groundings?
You can put mains ground to some of the screw hole which has chassis ground connected. For operation you do not need a ground, just fo safety, but as long as you enclosure does conduct electricity you can live without mains ground. Find 700AS2 engineer manual on ICEpower site and look at drawings. There are some information about chassis grounding.
hi, if i connect as2/1200 amp to rca / no-balanced cable, is it still good high.end amp for this? what do i need to do? put buffer in between to raise inputlevel? tnx nice video!
For a short distance of up to 6m of input cable difference between balanced and unbalanced is in sensitivity. Unbalanced is -6dB or 2 times lower. If your max power is OK then you should not do anything. Quality is the same.
Hi, recently I just saw a youtube clip from PS audio and they're also using icepower module for their amp. They're using 1200AS1 to build the monoblock. In the comment section I saw people describing the old class D problem is mainly comes from low pass filter design. With poor implementation some high frequency noise might goes into speakerdrivers in the old days. Also they've mentioned about the BTL mode typically has better performance due to 2 sets of LPF the circuit is actually using. My question is whether 1200AS2 is in BTL mode? In your video you've mentioned about the benefit of quardo balance design. But looking from the 1200AS2 board itself it seems that the output part only has one inductor per channel? Are they using same inductor for positive and negative channel? or it's different demodulation?Another question is about the phase response. Saw some people mention that the phase response of 1200AS2 is 30 degree off at 1kHz and 40 degree off at 2kHz and max out to around 50 degree. Is the phase difference a concern for audio content at this frequency range?
Icepower1200AS2 has 4 channel architecture set in bridged mode. The filter has 1 core and 2 inductors inside it. This is misleading visually. It is a space-saving solution. If you will check the inductor in detail it has 3 connection points. One more engineering genius solution is reducing the price of the board. The board's final price/quality is unbeatable. The simple answer- 1200AS2 is operating in bridged mode. Regarding phase shift. First, humans cannot hear absolute phase, just a phase difference in the frequency range from 500Hz -4.5Khz. Once both channels have equal phase shift sound stage is not impacted and you have the perfect result. Think broader and take into your scope passive crossover filter what is turning phase for more than 180 degrees in the midrange and no one is complaining that it is a problem. But a lot of literature is emphasizing that you need a good crossover with selected and adjusted components to match the channels. And the last phase impacting element is the speaker itself. Each speaker in the working frequency range is turning phase for about 30 and more degrees. The key takeaway from the long answer is that human is not able to hear the absolute phase, only the phase difference between the left and right channel.
@@guntarssmits2104 Thanks so much for the detailed answer. I also wander why people put emphasis on power amplifier to have perfect phase response but did not mentioned about the phase problem in crossover / drivers. The 2 inductor in 1 core is hard to tell for me, really thanks for the information. I'm recently considering buying the 300A2 hanger module to form the 3 way system by using the hanger rail from 1200AS2. I'll update after finished.
I had plans to use my MiniDSP 2x4HD board to drive this amp as a subwoofer amp but now (after testing) it seems the 2V output is not strong enough to drive this amp. What could I use to take the processed signal from the MiniDSP and increase it so the amplifier will produce full power?
Any preamp that can boost signals up to 3.8Vrms or 5V peak. You can use professional mixers that are produced in large volumes and costs are reasonable like Soundcraft owww.thomann.de/gb/soundcraft_notepad_5.htm or Behringer www.thomann.de/gb/behringer_xenyx_302_usb.htm
@@stevensolazzo It is hard to suggest regarding bords. Icepower 1200 has very good balanced preamplifier circuits and you need a good preamp for that. Also, it is difficult to predict the voltage transition processes of the preamp. It may create a huge blast during the switch-on process. You also need power supply voltage for the preamplifier which you can take from 1200AS2 board, some +-15V. You Should take some boards from AliExpress and experiment. It would not be correct by me to suggest something that is not tested.
Labdien! Great video! I was curious about the ICE1200AS1 vs AS2: does the AS1 have any advantages over the AS2? Looking at their specs, an AS2, if run mono, gives the same output in a 4 Ohm load as an AS1. So is more flexibility for the price of a little idle power dissipated by the extra output stage when that is not used, and ca. 80 Euros (tax included). Otherwise apparently identical parameters when AS2 runs one channel only. Seems to be very little going for AS1 - or am I overlooking something?
You are Right, There is no tangible benefit except a slight price difference using the AS1 module. There is a professional usage scenario in format AS1 board for a woofer with 1.2KW and hanger module for 300W or 400W in stereo. You will get a powerful 3-way system for professional usage, but there will be too much power for a home system.
@@guntarssmits2104 Hi, thanks for the reply. What about a GND? I would have 2 cables coming from my processor (12v and GND). Also, would I first need to place the module in standby? Thanks again.
@@MikeYoungeasytravel From manual "When the 1200AS is in standby-mode set by a high on the Standby input, ( P101, pin6 connected via 10K resistor to pin 3 DVDD standby) the module can be powered up by a high on the Trigger input. This can e.g. be used to switch on and off a remotely located amplifier." GND connects to the chassis. Most 12v connectors are meant to be connected to the chassis when you secure them. You should verify if the 12V socket is connected to the chassis in a secure way. Some paints may work as electrical insulators. In case you have a chassis-insulated socket you can connect GND to the board. In practice, you need to experiment with that. In case you get a hum noise disconnect board GND and go for chassis GND for 12V trigger.
Hi, currently I am selling only Kit. In my channel, there is information also about terms and conditions and where to purchase the board. We are not selling boards by ourselves. The board you can purchase from EU reseller “Sound import” Boards are in stock. This is a proven supplier with good customer service. www.soundimports.eu/en/icepower-1200as2.html Pricing, Terms, and Conditions are described there. This kit we are mostly selling directly. This video will answer why. czcams.com/video/BmvG0foYXGY/video.html Assembling instructions are available on my channel czcams.com/video/w1FNFcv1v7w/video.html
Probably this is one of the best amplifier boards that I have ever heard. There are tiny bits of perfection like precision and ease to listen. Especially at low volume when typically, we are losing reproduction energy. But not in this case. Still, perfect precision and tolerance how it sounds. When I assembled this unit, it become the only one I am listening. There is some magic in how easy is a listening experience. But I should be honest, I never had on my hand's top line Brystone and Mackintosh units.
I did not, but I found 2 forum members who own all 3 brand amplifiers and tested them for the year. Final judgment - they sound the same. The owner kept the 1200AS2 version due to higher power and lower price reasons. Of course, we can discuss a matter of speaker resolution, etc. From an engineering point of view, 1200AS2 is superior due to Quadro balanced design which is important for professional applications running amplifier at clipping level. I also value this design capability to work with equal power for 4 Ohm and 8 Ohm loads. (limited by amplifier output current not power supply voltage)
Yes, but you do not need so excessive cooling. I saw suitable enclosures with one full-length heatsink. You need about 120mm high enclosure with one heatsink, place the board in a vertical position, and drill holes in the bottom and top plate to provide airflow for board components with natural convection. It starts from about 120mm high. Cold air is coming from the bottom and hot is going out from the top. You should provide 12mm bottom clearance for secure airflow.
@@guntarssmits2104 Will heat dissipation through the bottom metal plate be enough to cool it? I am looking at a Boulder style cnc case that doesn't have any holes for air flow. if the heat is mostly transfered to the bottom plate, then I could just put thermal paste between the bottom plate and the case, let the case do all the cooling.
@@px7355 From engineering aspects it is not a good solution. You should create convection according to physics Your design will overheat already at half power continuous music listening and shorten the board lifetime Heat from the bottom plate accumulate inside the chassis. without convection, it is not moving away and starts exponentially growing inside the enclosure. Dispatch is slower than the accumulation process.
@@guntarssmits2104 I’d expect the heat accumulation’s dynamic be closer to “asymptotic”, stabilising at certain temp. difference between the case and ambient; still, “exponential” could characterise the damage it will do over time if the equilibrium will be around the modules thermal protection threshold. Nevertheless, I can see an argument for a closed box - no dust. AS1200 does not seem to have any particular surface where to attach a heatsink/ attach it to a heatsink, or I am missing smth.? If so, then one should cool the air inside the closed box. - Can some parts be wrestled from portable refrigerator boxes running on 12 V? Or one can just cool the box. Not efficient … I’d suggest a box deepr (and/or wider) than the module, with heatsinking, and keeping the module at the bottom; a wide, shallow box can be put on a side, with the module at the bottom, the empty space above it. There will be limited convection inside the box, and outside. Unless the box is big, or very sohisticated, it is still likely to shorten module’s life. If I cannot fix my dead Aleph 4, ditching innards would make one mighty closed box; only ICE1200 is too big for that … but it might just fit diagonally.
No, I am not using cables from Icepower due to quality issues. I am purchasing high-quality silicon wires for mains and speaker connection and extra quality small diameter flexible shielded signal wires. Crimping is done by our company.
@@partyk138 Generally speaking you can build a perfect system with cables provided by Icepower. It has an impact when you assemble a number of kits or integrated systems. A good place to purchase assembling components is TME catalog. Wire what you can use for input connector is this www.tme.eu/en/details/tas-c202/microphone-cables/tasker/c202/
@@partyk138 That's a hard part. You should search around the globe and purchase them in volumes. Also, Icepower boards have a broad variety of connectors. The reasonable MQP is 1000 due to shipping costs. Can not help with that. Use an existing set even if you may not like them.
I purchased the 1200AS2 and had problems with it. It kept switching from ON to STANDBY mode. I called icepower but they told me it was out of the 3-year warranty, and could not repair it. They said I would have to order another module :( I am not going to spend another $500!!! Not sure if anyone else has had this problem, but I have also heard others that said they are trouble and to stay away! 💩ICEPOWER 💩
Murphy's law is universal and sometimes things are going wrong. I made a video about where to purchase the boards to be on the safe side. czcams.com/video/NkXuz7dY0PY/video.html . In most cases, the seller is responsible for at least 2 years of warranty of sold goods and you can return it even if you are out of manufacturer warranty. I have sold more than 100 kits and also have one case when the board did not operate as described. The seller Soundimport replaced the board without disputes. When purchasing 1200AS2 used boards for a good price we should be aware that there are rear cases when someone is selling them due to sound quality reasons. Typically board has an issue. Most of the DIY projects are done in small extruded cases without proper airflow and boards operating in extreme temperature conditions. In my videos, I emphasized that good design should have proper airflow calculations in the project. For passive cooling, you need a 3U high enclosure and vertical board mount to achieve minimum necessary airflow. Seems that your board come to the end of life due to long operation in high-temperature conditions. According to statistics if the board has a manufacturer components defect it shows up in the first 2 weeks of operation which are covered by 2-3 year warranties.
I made amplifier based on IcePower250A modules. Very satisfied. I feed it with different streamers (not balanced) but noticed that if put some little preamp(gain 3 or so) sound becomes much better@@guntarssmits2104
this is a good question. i'm considering marantz av10 or stormaudio as surround processor pre amp and will DIY this amp for a total of 11 channels. will these modern surround processor preamps complement this icepower 1200 amps @@guntarssmits2104?
@@QAT4969 For home cinema surrounds 1200AS2AS2 will be overkill. You may need it just for floor-standing fronts. We are dealing with a 1kW capable board and 3.8kW instant power. Assuming that you will use 6 boards your wall socket provided power will be short. Also, you will need a sequencer to switch amplifiers one by one. Quality will be outstanding but science home cinema limits low frequencies for surround and we can hear directional effects from 500Hz-5kHz I would say that 200AS2 is a better choice even if you are building an advanced system. And you will save significant space, money, and electricity savings
thank you for your advise Mr. Smits. yes..i'm considering 200AS2 or smaller for surrounds & overhead ceiling atmos speakers. for power switch socket outlets (SSO), i'll have them in every corner. front stage will have at least 5 nos of SSOs to cater for BD player AV pre pros, and the 3 LCR which will be powered by 1200AS each..not forgetting subwoofers too. my goal is to achieve 120db@1m at LCRs, and 100db@1m for surrounds. i need that much SPL due to my seating position from the screen is about 5meters. i would also like to add on switchable on/off 4 LED signal indicators to monitor power output level as to not clip both the amps & drivers, low (green), mid (yellow), high (amber) & clip (bright red). is there anyway i could add it to the amp board?
If Speaker can reproduce this dynamic music and so call 700w short bursts without any distortions, than can any good amp with 40..50w continuous power. (sarcastic)
Even sarcastic you are right. For good music reproduction, you need a powerful high-quality amplifier. I am a big fan of ICEpower 1200AS2. Perfect match for home users.
Have you tried some Hypex/purify models wich are extremely popular? And are they close/better for music performance wise? Thanks in advance, this was an amazing video!
Purifi and Hypex solutions are single-ended which is a significant lowlight for class d design. They are great sounding devices but for a higher price and the worst architecture. This is the main reason why I choose ICEpower over Purifi and Hypex. The last 2 brands are focusing on consumer audiences and have a lot of buzz around their products. It does not mean they are better. They have better marketing with a clear focus.
@@guntarssmits2104 As far as I know, Purifi and Hypex amps are designed natively for fully differential input, not single-ended. Isn't this what you mean? I really appreciate your work and knowledge for the community.
@@guntarssmits2104 Ice being bridged as in a bridged stereo amp in mono mode (Bridge-tied load)? Hypex can also work in BTL, which "results in double the voltage swing across the load compared to a single-ended configuration". This is useful for higher impedances, as the impedance of the speaker is halved in BTL, min. 4 ohms, 8 ohms recommended. Peak power is doubled. THD is worse than SE. I don't see Hypex and Purifi architecture being worse than Ice for this. Ice's main benefit is price per power. And yes, efficiency. As far as I know, SE is referenced to ground while BTL is floating. Can Ice drive 2ohms speaker in BTL architecture?
There is a critical factor. It looks like there is a buzz sound coming from the board itself. 😂 not even joking. Also the price should be lower by now since ncx500 is out and way more superior.
It still is if you consider all functions of the great amplifier- exceeding human hearing limits, power, integrated by design, quadro balanced architecture, and price.
Well after (3) weeks using the Icepower1200AS2 kit with Bluesound Nodi as streamer/preamp/DAC I am so impressed. This is best amp I ever owned! My Thiel CS2.3 speakers have never sounded so good. Thanks Guntars.
I own a set of black Thiel CS2 looking to get back in 'services' , hum...That stereo amp look promesing! Maybe with my old Qued preamp or a nicely built DIY tube preamp? 🤔
I own a combined dual monoblock with a stereo kit in the middle of the steelcase. It delivers 1200 watts per channel for my dual subwoofers and 620 watts per channel for my top system consisting of two Seas L17REX/P and one centered Aurum Cantus G2Si ribbon tweeter. They sound perfect👌🥳
super clear sound and cooler noise in the room !)))
I have been using a 50ASX2 at my desk for a long time. It has been reliable and sounds good through my speakers, which are DIY but are like Amphion Ion with upgraded drivers.
I have made a stereo amplifier from ICEpower 125ASX2. It was a very good 100W/channel amplifier and sounded better than many industrial samples. To improve the sound, I used an INA1650-based balanced preamplifier. But 1200AS2 is a next-generation design with proprietary Class d driver chipsets. There is a significant sound reproduction tolerance jump. And of course, working so far away from clipping it is capable to drive complex speaker loads without sound reproduction detail loss.
This is such a great video! Thanks for sharing all of your knowledge and insight. You make it look so easy.
Priceless info.thank you.
Rotel uses ice amp in many of the Rotel amplifiers such ss Rmb 1077 and others.
I have studied and tested a lot of amplifiers and currently coming to the conclusion that the latest generation ICEpower and Hypex solutions are ending amplifier evolution. We're exceeding the human hearing limit and better specifications mean nothing. The optimum home user amplifier is a low-noise 2x500W amp that fits all possible usage scenarios. The next investments should go for preamp/streamer or active speakers solutions where we have audible improvements for our money.
Thanks for the comprehensive information. I'm looking forward to building an amp.
Inspiring comment😀. Thanks
Which pins do you connect the power LED to, and is a resistor in series needed? If so, what value?
Where is this kit available at? Does it include the enclosure?
It is at my webshop www.tcrastrs.com/product-page/tcr1200-diy-amplifier-kit
good review Im looking for some amp moduels that can output 3000W @ 2ohms any idea how much power this amp will make at 2 ohms... my subwoofers are 1500w@2ohms and each sub has 2 drivers...any recommendations.
at 5:03 there was mention of standby consumption, as i never had good experience with the auto sense (on off) circuit in all my amps i keep my amps always on. standby is when amp is only in standby mode, if you listen to low level as i do most of the time, its the power usage when at 0 to 5 watts output that matters.
in the data sheet page 16, P idle: 35 watt that matters.
also got power efficiency graph at page 23, ca 35% efficiency at 5 watts, assuming that i calculate it correctly listening at 5 watts output is 35 watt idle draw plus 5w output at 35% is times 3 to get 15watt. 35w plus 15w is 50 watt for low level listening.
that is very high and why most of my amps run hot at idle.
1200AS2 has a dedicated second small power supply and stand-by is working well. Wake up from signal in my experiments did a good job as well. I did not have any complaints. Idle for 1,2kw system is 35W and it is a bit too high to leave the system always on. I would suggest a 12v trigger option if you are not happy with signal sense. Check how your signal sense is implemented in your system, there is 2 type of VDD 5V voltage. You should use for standby management 5V low consumption stand by pin. Signal sense may have some problems if the preamp is noisy, but the 12V trigger is rock solid. Of course, you need one more cable in your system. For professional applications, there is a limit for standby power max consumptions. If I remember correctly 3W is the max for energy star-certified systems.
@@guntarssmits2104 in the past "Wake up from signal" feature has been bad for me, and currently i own 3 class d amp with the feature but more options to adjust. have not got my hands on the newer icepower, only have icepower 200asc right now and i had to bridge some pins to disable the feature, but its also the most cool running amp i ever had.
got purifi nad c298 power amp and ncore plate amp from hypex. both with some adjustments but really hard to wake them up so i gave up and let them always stay on 24/7. i use signal sense, as i use a digital dsp unit from minidsp as a preamp and no option for 12 volt trigger i think.
@@sudd3660 For time being I will collect some statistics from the customers and then I can tell more about this feature. As lab. experiment PC -external sound card and amplifier signal sense were stable.
Are the other icepower models from the AS Series the same quality than the one you used? I consider building a amplifier but I really don’t need that much power and also I wouldn’t be mad spending a bit less money for a less powerful model. Best regards and thanks for the great video
No, alternative integrated boards with the latest generation chipsets and Quadro-balanced architecture exist. Believe 500W is not much power even for shelve-type speakers you will have some headroom that's it. It was a problem with class AB efficiency and most of the Class AB amplifiers are about 100W. Normally for floor-standing speakers, we need more power but it was expensive in the past. I was testing setups with 40RMS power small speakers and they sound lovely and safe. Board is built with low sensitivity and you need a large input signal (3.5V) to go for full power
Thank you so much for your work. You are providing really helpfull information.
However, one issue has not yet been conclusively clarified for me, namely the question of what the situation is with input buffers.
To make the rather analytical sound of the Icepower boards a little more "analogue", many recommend tube buffers or op-amp buffers with TI IC or discrete OP amps.
Is there an "in a box" solution with an AS2 or ASX plus inbuild buffer board? Thank you so much!
Let us define input buffer meaning. It is an electronic unit with a high input impedance of 47kOhms or more and a low output impedance of 50-150Ohms, the capability to handle high overloads and low distortions.
1200AS2 Board has a good 47kOhms input buffer and it does not need other preamp circuits. Boards like 200AS2, and 125ASX2 have relatively low input impedance of about 5kOhms and there will be improvements from the input buffer. I made a buffer board based on a TI INA1650 chip with 100kOhms input impedance and 150Ohms output impedance. There is significant quality improvement working together with 125 ASX2.
A good option for a preamp is a modern DAC which meets above mentioned requirements. It is not important whether you have a lamp or other technology preamp. The key is a high input impedance and low output impedance of the preamp to be able to drive the power stage. THD below 0,005% (Typically 0,0005%)
Could you please make a video on the new 2000 AS modules. Would like to hear your opinion on them! Amazing channel you have! I love it
Yes, 2000AS2 is a fantastic board. It is identical to 1200AS2 but with higher output power per channel. Single channel is capable of delivering 2KW, Stereo 1KW per channel. The connectors and layout are exactly the same. My Kit TCR1200 can be used for both boards without modification. Wires can handle 4 KW/channel. It was a clever solution to use a PWM fan for cooling because 2000AS2 has a higher idle power consumption and it may be wise to use the thermal paste to improve the thermal connection with the chassis Other vise board is identical to 1200AS2 with the same performance and architecture. I Have a german customer who builds an amplifier using a 2000AS2 board and a TCR1200 kit. He mentioned that his system has infinite power headroom and I believe it. 1KW high-quality power per channel for the home user is a lot of power.
@@guntarssmits2104 thanks for the reply! I have 2000AS2 myself which I use in mono-configuration. They are built with only the best internal-wiring and connectors from Furutech and ETI. The headroom and slam is incredible! Utterly transparent and clean sound! I have owned many expensive AB amps from known brands, but these ICE-power amplifiers best them all! They are also an amazing match with my Pass Labs XP 20 preamp! 🙂👌! Keep up the good work my friend! Very informative and knowledgable channel with absolutely zero BS!
Is it possible to integrate VU meters in the front of the housing ? I’m quite interested though the design is missing the aesthetics to convince my wife of setting it on the low board instead under it. Thanks 😊
When we are talking about next-generation amplifiers with high probability we will move away from shiny box designs and moving signal indicators. That place is taking modern streamers and DACS with phone APS where you have all meters and many more. The amplifier should become invisible and be placed as close as possible to the speakers. This is also my concept. TCR1200 has a built-in Wake-from-signal function that allows you to place it remotely from your front-end equipment, When the signal comes to input amplifier starts operating. You should not switch it on. After 18 minutes (minutes not seconds) of idle, it goes into sleep mode and consumes only 250mW waiting for the next moment when the signal is applied to the amplifier input.
The simple answer is no there are no future VU meter designs from me.
im currently building a pair of speakers with intergraded amplifiers (icepower 700AS2)
In my case, where the whole speaker is made from wood, where should i put my groundings?
You can put mains ground to some of the screw hole which has chassis ground connected. For operation you do not need a ground, just fo safety, but as long as you enclosure does conduct electricity you can live without mains ground. Find 700AS2 engineer manual on ICEpower site and look at drawings. There are some information about chassis grounding.
@@guntarssmits2104 Thank you! :)
hi, if i connect as2/1200 amp to rca / no-balanced cable, is it still good high.end amp for this? what do i need to do? put buffer in between to raise inputlevel? tnx nice video!
For a short distance of up to 6m of input cable difference between balanced and unbalanced is in sensitivity. Unbalanced is -6dB or 2 times lower. If your max power is OK then you should not do anything. Quality is the same.
@@guntarssmits2104 unbalenced is 6db lower. Not 10db? Maybe i just rememberd 10db. No? Thank you very much for answer :)
Hi, recently I just saw a youtube clip from PS audio and they're also using icepower module for their amp. They're using 1200AS1 to build the monoblock. In the comment section I saw people describing the old class D problem is mainly comes from low pass filter design. With poor implementation some high frequency noise might goes into speakerdrivers in the old days. Also they've mentioned about the BTL mode typically has better performance due to 2 sets of LPF the circuit is actually using. My question is whether 1200AS2 is in BTL mode? In your video you've mentioned about the benefit of quardo balance design. But looking from the 1200AS2 board itself it seems that the output part only has one
inductor per channel? Are they using same inductor for positive and negative channel? or it's different demodulation?Another question is about the phase response. Saw some people mention that the phase response of 1200AS2 is 30 degree off at 1kHz and 40 degree off at 2kHz and max out to around 50 degree. Is the phase difference a concern for audio content at this frequency range?
Icepower1200AS2 has 4 channel architecture set in bridged mode. The filter has 1 core and 2 inductors inside it. This is misleading visually. It is a space-saving solution. If you will check the inductor in detail it has 3 connection points. One more engineering genius solution is reducing the price of the board. The board's final price/quality is unbeatable. The simple answer- 1200AS2 is operating in bridged mode.
Regarding phase shift. First, humans cannot hear absolute phase, just a phase difference in the frequency range from 500Hz -4.5Khz. Once both channels have equal phase shift sound stage is not impacted and you have the perfect result. Think broader and take into your scope passive crossover filter what is turning phase for more than 180 degrees in the midrange and no one is complaining that it is a problem. But a lot of literature is emphasizing that you need a good crossover with selected and adjusted components to match the channels. And the last phase impacting element is the speaker itself. Each speaker in the working frequency range is turning phase for about 30 and more degrees. The key takeaway from the long answer is that human is not able to hear the absolute phase, only the phase difference between the left and right channel.
@@guntarssmits2104 Thanks so much for the detailed answer. I also wander why people put emphasis on power amplifier to have perfect phase response but did not mentioned about the phase problem in crossover / drivers. The 2 inductor in 1 core is hard to tell for me, really thanks for the information. I'm recently considering buying the 300A2 hanger module to form the 3 way system by using the hanger rail from 1200AS2. I'll update after finished.
Which LPF would you recommend? Passive? Order? Would that work on other class Ds?
Dam being g and amp enthuist love to try this amp out !
You are wellcome
I had plans to use my MiniDSP 2x4HD board to drive this amp as a subwoofer amp but now (after testing) it seems the 2V output is not strong enough to drive this amp. What could I use to take the processed signal from the MiniDSP and increase it so the amplifier will produce full power?
Any preamp that can boost signals up to 3.8Vrms or 5V peak. You can use professional mixers that are produced in large volumes and costs are reasonable like Soundcraft owww.thomann.de/gb/soundcraft_notepad_5.htm or Behringer www.thomann.de/gb/behringer_xenyx_302_usb.htm
@@guntarssmits2104 any ideas for something smaller/bare board that could go in the amp chassis?
@@stevensolazzo It is hard to suggest regarding bords. Icepower 1200 has very good balanced preamplifier circuits and you need a good preamp for that. Also, it is difficult to predict the voltage transition processes of the preamp. It may create a huge blast during the switch-on process. You also need power supply voltage for the preamplifier which you can take from 1200AS2 board, some +-15V. You Should take some boards from AliExpress and experiment. It would not be correct by me to suggest something that is not tested.
Labdien!
Great video!
I was curious about the ICE1200AS1 vs AS2: does the AS1 have any advantages over the AS2?
Looking at their specs, an AS2, if run mono, gives the same output in a 4 Ohm load as an AS1. So is more flexibility for the price of a little idle power dissipated by the extra output stage when that is not used, and ca. 80 Euros (tax included). Otherwise apparently identical parameters when AS2 runs one channel only.
Seems to be very little going for AS1 - or am I overlooking something?
Yes you are right. 1200AS1 is good with a hanger board to make 3-way active speaker systems. For other applications 1200AS2 is better choice.
You are Right, There is no tangible benefit except a slight price difference using the AS1 module. There is a professional usage scenario in format AS1 board for a woofer with 1.2KW and hanger module for 300W or 400W in stereo. You will get a powerful 3-way system for professional usage, but there will be too much power for a home system.
If you compare 1200AS2 with 2x 125ASX2, which is better regarding to sound quality?
1200AS2 is unbeatable. It is also the latest generation product with better components and electronic architecture.
Do you have information about installing a 12V trigger? Thanks in advance.
I will make a detailed video later, but in short you should provide 12v control signal to P102 pin 18 (Trigger) via 10K resistor
@@guntarssmits2104 Hi, thanks for the reply. What about a GND? I would have 2 cables coming from my processor (12v and GND). Also, would I first need to place the module in standby? Thanks again.
@@MikeYoungeasytravel From manual "When the 1200AS is in standby-mode set by a high on the Standby input, ( P101, pin6 connected via 10K resistor to pin 3 DVDD standby) the module can be powered up by a high on the Trigger input. This can e.g. be used to switch on and off a remotely located amplifier." GND connects to the chassis. Most 12v connectors are meant to be connected to the chassis when you secure them. You should verify if the 12V socket is connected to the chassis in a secure way. Some paints may work as electrical insulators. In case you have a chassis-insulated socket you can connect GND to the board. In practice, you need to experiment with that. In case you get a hum noise disconnect board GND and go for chassis GND for 12V trigger.
Is it possible to detect input signal from the balanced connectors and use this to turn on the amplifier only when needed?
@@wojciechgorski5708 Yes
Very nice video. I had a xtz edge a2-300 . But that one was to weak for my speaker.. Do you sale the whole kit ?
Hi, currently I am selling only Kit. In my channel, there is information also about terms and conditions and where to purchase the board. We are not selling boards by ourselves. The board you can purchase from EU reseller “Sound import” Boards are in stock. This is a proven supplier with good customer service. www.soundimports.eu/en/icepower-1200as2.html
Pricing, Terms, and Conditions are described there. This kit we are mostly selling directly. This video will answer why. czcams.com/video/BmvG0foYXGY/video.html
Assembling instructions are available on my channel czcams.com/video/w1FNFcv1v7w/video.html
@@guntarssmits2104 Thanks for the time. I will give it a try . I think this setup will match my speaker well.
Great video. How does the Amp sound?
Probably this is one of the best amplifier boards that I have ever heard. There are tiny bits of perfection like precision and ease to listen. Especially at low volume when typically, we are losing reproduction energy. But not in this case. Still, perfect precision and tolerance how it sounds. When I assembled this unit, it become the only one I am listening. There is some magic in how easy is a listening experience. But I should be honest, I never had on my hand's top line Brystone and Mackintosh units.
@@guntarssmits2104 that's good to know. Specially for the price. Have you compared this Amp to other class D? Hypex NC400 or Nc500...
I did not, but I found 2 forum members who own all 3 brand amplifiers and tested them for the year. Final judgment - they sound the same. The owner kept the 1200AS2 version due to higher power and lower price reasons. Of course, we can discuss a matter of speaker resolution, etc. From an engineering point of view, 1200AS2 is superior due to Quadro balanced design which is important for professional applications running amplifier at clipping level. I also value this design capability to work with equal power for 4 Ohm and 8 Ohm loads. (limited by amplifier output current not power supply voltage)
Would one of those cnc aluminium case thats used for class A amps be enough to passively cool this module?
Yes, but you do not need so excessive cooling. I saw suitable enclosures with one full-length heatsink. You need about 120mm high enclosure with one heatsink, place the board in a vertical position, and drill holes in the bottom and top plate to provide airflow for board components with natural convection. It starts from about 120mm high. Cold air is coming from the bottom and hot is going out from the top. You should provide 12mm bottom clearance for secure airflow.
@@guntarssmits2104 Will heat dissipation through the bottom metal plate be enough to cool it?
I am looking at a Boulder style cnc case that doesn't have any holes for air flow. if the heat is mostly transfered to the bottom plate, then I could just put thermal paste between the bottom plate and the case, let the case do all the cooling.
@@px7355 From engineering aspects it is not a good solution. You should create convection according to physics Your design will overheat already at half power continuous music listening and shorten the board lifetime Heat from the bottom plate accumulate inside the chassis. without convection, it is not moving away and starts exponentially growing inside the enclosure. Dispatch is slower than the accumulation process.
@@guntarssmits2104 thank u, I will look for another case then
@@guntarssmits2104 I’d expect the heat accumulation’s dynamic be closer to “asymptotic”, stabilising at certain temp. difference between the case and ambient; still, “exponential” could characterise the damage it will do over time if the equilibrium will be around the modules thermal protection threshold.
Nevertheless, I can see an argument for a closed box - no dust.
AS1200 does not seem to have any particular surface where to attach a heatsink/ attach it to a heatsink, or I am missing smth.?
If so, then one should cool the air inside the closed box. - Can some parts be wrestled from portable refrigerator boxes running on 12 V?
Or one can just cool the box. Not efficient … I’d suggest a box deepr (and/or wider) than the module, with heatsinking, and keeping the module at the bottom; a wide, shallow box can be put on a side, with the module at the bottom, the empty space above it. There will be limited convection inside the box, and outside. Unless the box is big, or very sohisticated, it is still likely to shorten module’s life.
If I cannot fix my dead Aleph 4, ditching innards would make one mighty closed box; only ICE1200 is too big for that … but it might just fit diagonally.
Those wires are from IcePower? I received wires to 700as2 and quality is not best in my opinion, audio input are made probably from aluminium...
No, I am not using cables from Icepower due to quality issues. I am purchasing high-quality silicon wires for mains and speaker connection and extra quality small diameter flexible shielded signal wires. Crimping is done by our company.
@@guntarssmits2104 Where I can order them?
@@partyk138 Generally speaking you can build a perfect system with cables provided by Icepower. It has an impact when you assemble a number of kits or integrated systems. A good place to purchase assembling components is TME catalog. Wire what you can use for input connector is this www.tme.eu/en/details/tas-c202/microphone-cables/tasker/c202/
Cables are no problem, but connectors :/
@@partyk138 That's a hard part. You should search around the globe and purchase them in volumes. Also, Icepower boards have a broad variety of connectors. The reasonable MQP is 1000 due to shipping costs. Can not help with that. Use an existing set even if you may not like them.
I purchased the 1200AS2 and had problems with it. It kept switching from ON to STANDBY mode. I called icepower but they told me it was out of the 3-year warranty, and could not repair it. They said I would have to order another module :( I am not going to spend another $500!!! Not sure if anyone else has had this problem, but I have also heard others that said they are trouble and to stay away! 💩ICEPOWER 💩
Murphy's law is universal and sometimes things are going wrong. I made a video about where to purchase the boards to be on the safe side. czcams.com/video/NkXuz7dY0PY/video.html . In most cases, the seller is responsible for at least 2 years of warranty of sold goods and you can return it even if you are out of manufacturer warranty. I have sold more than 100 kits and also have one case when the board did not operate as described. The seller Soundimport replaced the board without disputes.
When purchasing 1200AS2 used boards for a good price we should be aware that there are rear cases when someone is selling them due to sound quality reasons. Typically board has an issue. Most of the DIY projects are done in small extruded cases without proper airflow and boards operating in extreme temperature conditions. In my videos, I emphasized that good design should have proper airflow calculations in the project. For passive cooling, you need a 3U high enclosure and vertical board mount to achieve minimum necessary airflow. Seems that your board come to the end of life due to long operation in high-temperature conditions. According to statistics if the board has a manufacturer components defect it shows up in the first 2 weeks of operation which are covered by 2-3 year warranties.
WHAT PREAMP IS SUGESTED TI USE WITH iCEpower 1200AS2?
Any modern streamer/dac with balanced outputs for the best quality. I am using a PC and Focusrite sound card as a budget solution
I made amplifier based on IcePower250A modules. Very satisfied. I feed it with different streamers (not balanced) but noticed that if put some little preamp(gain 3 or so) sound becomes much better@@guntarssmits2104
this is a good question. i'm considering marantz av10 or stormaudio as surround processor pre amp and will DIY this amp for a total of 11 channels. will these modern surround processor preamps complement this icepower 1200 amps @@guntarssmits2104?
@@QAT4969 For home cinema surrounds 1200AS2AS2 will be overkill. You may need it just for floor-standing fronts. We are dealing with a 1kW capable board and 3.8kW instant power. Assuming that you will use 6 boards your wall socket provided power will be short. Also, you will need a sequencer to switch amplifiers one by one. Quality will be outstanding but science home cinema limits low frequencies for surround and we can hear directional effects from 500Hz-5kHz I would say that 200AS2 is a better choice even if you are building an advanced system. And you will save significant space, money, and electricity savings
thank you for your advise Mr. Smits. yes..i'm considering 200AS2 or smaller for surrounds & overhead ceiling atmos speakers. for power switch socket outlets (SSO), i'll have them in every corner. front stage will have at least 5 nos of SSOs to cater for BD player AV pre pros, and the 3 LCR which will be powered by 1200AS each..not forgetting subwoofers too.
my goal is to achieve 120db@1m at LCRs, and 100db@1m for surrounds. i need that much SPL due to my seating position from the screen is about 5meters.
i would also like to add on switchable on/off 4 LED signal indicators to monitor power output level as to not clip both the amps & drivers, low (green), mid (yellow), high (amber) & clip (bright red). is there anyway i could add it to the amp board?
If Speaker can reproduce this dynamic music and so call 700w short bursts without any distortions, than can any good amp with 40..50w continuous power. (sarcastic)
Even sarcastic you are right. For good music reproduction, you need a powerful high-quality amplifier. I am a big fan of ICEpower 1200AS2. Perfect match for home users.
Have you tried some Hypex/purify models wich are extremely popular? And are they close/better for music performance wise? Thanks in advance, this was an amazing video!
Purifi and Hypex solutions are single-ended which is a significant lowlight for class d design. They are great sounding devices but for a higher price and the worst architecture. This is the main reason why I choose ICEpower over Purifi and Hypex. The last 2 brands are focusing on consumer audiences and have a lot of buzz around their products. It does not mean they are better. They have better marketing with a clear focus.
@@guntarssmits2104 thanks for the fast reply!!
@@guntarssmits2104 As far as I know, Purifi and Hypex amps are designed natively for fully differential input, not single-ended. Isn't this what you mean? I really appreciate your work and knowledge for the community.
No, I meant output stage. 1200/2000 line up has bridged architecture ( Mcintosh branded it as Quadro balanced)
@@guntarssmits2104 Ice being bridged as in a bridged stereo amp in mono mode (Bridge-tied load)?
Hypex can also work in BTL, which "results in double the voltage swing across the load compared to a single-ended configuration". This is useful for higher impedances, as the impedance of the speaker is halved in BTL, min. 4 ohms, 8 ohms recommended. Peak power is doubled. THD is worse than SE.
I don't see Hypex and Purifi architecture being worse than Ice for this. Ice's main benefit is price per power. And yes, efficiency.
As far as I know, SE is referenced to ground while BTL is floating.
Can Ice drive 2ohms speaker in BTL architecture?
Great Information, where can I buy one?
Visit the website www.tcrastrs.com and write me an email. There is a video about pricing and sales terms. czcams.com/video/BmvG0foYXGY/video.html
There is a critical factor. It looks like there is a buzz sound coming from the board itself. 😂 not even joking. Also the price should be lower by now since ncx500 is out and way more superior.
it is not the best amplifier in the world
It still is if you consider all functions of the great amplifier- exceeding human hearing limits, power, integrated by design, quadro balanced architecture, and price.
@@guntarssmits2104 the best amplifier considering sound/price is DartZeel clone D5 pro :-) ... next is TPA3255
Hi Guntars, I wrote you a pm on messenger/facebook. Kind regards Michael