How powerful were the Elves during the War of the Ring?
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- čas přidán 1. 07. 2024
- I've done Gondor, Rohan and the Dwarves of Erebor, so it made sense that the Elves of Middle-earth were next. How powerful were they? And I forgot to mention it in the video, but please note that these are my estimates and aren't official canon.
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Darth Gandalf I would love to see your estimate for the populations of Dorwinion, Breeland, Northern Dunedain, Dale and Dol Amroth and perhaps the strength of mordor, Easterlings and Haradrim.
Some of these might be a little tough considering we know so little about them. The strength of Sauron's forces and a video estimating Gondor's population is definitely on the cards though. I might also try one for Dale.
total population of the men from the east and south i would say low millions 3-6 total at the best. i mean Europe under the Romans only reached at it's peak 22 million. so if we add all the men from all those places i would say 6 million and a few hundred thousand to 7 million since the former lands of arnor and that are very bare of people.
Gondor is basically the Byzantine Empire is decline and so a high hundred thousands.
Mordor is hard to say since it does not really have a civilian population i would say since all orcs can fight be it poorly and training is not a thing orcs really do, they have slaves in the south growing food. Orcs must have a few hundred thousand troops be not all are war ready or equipped.
HistoryFan476ad Breh the Byzantine Empire at its peak in 1025 had 12 million people and when even just tied to the Balkans with the loss of Anatolia had 5 million. Gondor probably at least has 1 million people
You would have trouble as a plague had ripped through ME killing large portions of the human population
@@tylerellis9097 Oh yes but from descriptions of war of the ring era Gondor they seem to be so depopulated that i struggle to imagine it being a million or above. I mean i first thought the same as you but then i re-looked at the third book and population is barely there, but yet again Denethor did evacuate the city of civilians i think and the nearby lands.
So you might be right for the low millions whole kingdom wide, but not much above that due to the constant attacks from the forces of evil over the centuries.
I cannot argue about the woodland realm, because they have been under constant war since the Last Alliance. Maybe they could even raise 7000. Rivendell had only Noldor and Sindar, all very powerful, so I think you nailed it. You absolutely nailed Lindon. The only realm which I think you did not give the most reasonable numbers is Lothlorien. They have not been at war since the last Alliance, because Galadriel protected the borders. That leaves us 3000 years. 3000 years of prosperity and might. And Tolkien said that Lothlorien could not fall, unless Sauron came himself to destroy it. Of course, that was partly the strength og Galadriel and her ring, but also the elves were not weak.They destroyed two orc armies during the war and then attacked Dol Guldur. So I really believe that Lothlorien can raise not less than 8000. It may not be bigger than Mirkwood but only a part of Mirkwood is inhabited by the elves
@Malcolm Wilder yeah you're right
We don't give a shit
@@frenne_dilley as sure as I am that you don't know what I'm talking about
@@BigBroKuma Try prune juice.
Prosperity, might, and very low birth rates. Elven children seem notably absent in LoTR
It's too bad that we have no idea how many Avari Elves still dwelt in the lands east of Rhovanion, or if Sauron had essentially exterminated them by the end of the Third Age. I've wondered if any of the East-elves might have settled in the forested region near Dorwinion on the north-western shore of the Sea of Rhun. According to Tolkien--in LotR, Appendix F--the majority of Silvan Elves in both Mirkwood and Lorien were Avari rather than either Sindar Elves or Nandor Elves who still maintained the old ways of their eastern kin.
@@frenne_dilley Basically, look to the ways of the Green Elves.
Oddly late, but I've always felt like the forces that could possible resist Sauron to the East, the Dwarves and Elves, had become so isolationist that they no longer posed a threat in the eyes of Sauron nor were they yet weak enough for Sauron to risk his forces to essentially non-threatening enclaves.
The feeling of the light going out of the world with the Elves' departure is such a strong thread in Tolkien's work, said to reflect his views on contemporary society...
Dol amroth is Hybrid between elves and Men when prince of dol amroth met Legolas he actually bows due to him being part elve
Well yes and no. There's little elven blood in the nobility but the majority of their men were more or less the purest of the dùnadain. Opposed to being all half elven.
@@ConformingToEmptiness Well of course, its been a millennia or so since the second prince married an elven woman, so its no real surprise that it would thin over time, but Imrahil was an example of that blood showing through, Legolas saw it in him clear as day and gave respect he would give to another elf.
@@ConformingToEmptiness Yeah, mostly the Dol Amroth descendants of the Prince have the part elve in them, and i did not mean half i meant a small part, basically being almost pure Dunedaín and a bit elve is the best blood one can have in Lotr
I don't like how there's little mention of Dol Amroth anywhere. Its population is almost all Dunedain, its nobility had elven blood and their names are in Sindarin. They're basically as close to early days Gondor- or Numenor- as you can get in the Third Age.
Imrahil- the Prince of Dol Amroth and the uncle of Boromir and Faramir- is one of the purest Dunedain and has elven blood in his veins. So much so that he had a certain glow about him resembling the elves. This is what was said about him:
"Here indeed was one who had elven-blood in his veins" and "If Gondor has such men still in these days of fading, great must have been its glory in the days of its rising."
Eomer is one lucky sob to get married to Imrahil's daughter- also a Dunedain with elvish blood.
@zippyparakeet1074 compared to the silmarillion there really is barely any elves left during the war or the ring. The Noldor, although cursed by mandos were truly powerful. It was basically just some left in lorian, rivendell and mirkwood. Oropher was still around when Melkor ruled middle earth and the gave birth to Thranduil who is Legolas' father. So I'd say Elrond, galadriel and Legolas were by far the most powerul/skilled left in middle earth. I think Legolas heritage and power gets downplayed a bit, although still nothing compared to the Eldar.
Really love these discussions on war of the rings lore! Great JOB! Thanks for Sharing!
Happy Gondorian New Year and Tolkien Reading Day! Cool video.
very good video concept!!! elves as well as the dwarves, their numbers are pretty much unknown for us! do more ideas like this, no other lotr youtuber does this
This is GREAT thank you and keep content coming 👍
Super job and elves are extremely interesting and a bit of a mystery. Like when Sam said, "And I reckon there's Elves and Elves. They're all Elvish enough, but they're not all the same..." Quite right Mr. Gamgee!
In LoTR, there seems to be a kingdom and three what I'll call enclaves. Interestingly, the elf kingdom elves are kind of country bumpkims compared to the three enclaves that all have ties to Tolkien's ancient world of the first age. We're talking about Rivendell, Lothlorien, and Mithlond (the Grey Havens), which is the one we know the least about and seems to exist to build ships for elves to head to the west. Elf leaders of the three enclaves hold the three elven rings until Cirdan gives it to Gandalf (which is VERY interesting, isn't it?) and seem to be powerful folks. More so than anyone from Greenwood the Great.
I've always looked at Thranduil's kingdom as a kind of cheap, economy pack version of the far more powerful elven kingdoms and city-states of earlier times. In a decline much like Gondor is when compared to Numenor.
Like you stated, sylvan elves do not seem as advanced as high elves. I think that the elves that are slowly leaving middle earth are mostly those from the enclaves. Mithlond is not in place and led by a powerful elf by accident I think. I also believe that Thranduil's kingdom would have just kept declining until maybe those elves eventually left as well. We do hear about Legolas departing middle earth with Gimli.
A great point on interpreting Tolkien. All we can do is do our best and make our best guesses. Fun to do that of course! ;-)
Tolkien wrote that Thranduil was one of the mightiest of the Elven kings because his realm flourished without the aid of an Elven ring of power, Thranduil did it by strength of will alone. Hardly cheap by any stretch.
Thranduil's kingdom might be "cheap" when it comes to weapons, armor and the skills taught by the Valar and Malar but as for will, they've got more of it than dwarves or humans. Wood-elves are descendants of the Avari, the people who when living gods came to lead them to the west said, "Nah, we're good without you."
@@psilynt1indeed! Seemingly more independent and did not mind separating themselves in ways that other Elves did not.
Thranduil and Legolas were Sindar elves, not Sylvan elves like the majority of the Woodland Realm.
This is well reasoned. Good video
"The Woodland Realm is ruled by Kind Thranduil." - Darth Gandalf
I think the numbers of The Woodland Real are perhaps a bit low. Oropher (Legolas's grandfather and then king) "assembled a great army of his now numerous people, and joined with the lesser army of Amdir" (Amdir was the king of Lothlorien at the time). His son, Thranduil, led only a third of that force back after suffering heavy casualties, but the population of the Woodland Realm grew in numbers during the Third Age according to Tolkien, so by the end of The Third Age they should have been back to something like they were before. And- 5 000-6 000 isn't really "a great army" so I'd expect the numbers to be higher.
Also the elves in Lothlorien are also Silvan (with a Sindar king), just like those in MIrkwood. And while The Silvan Elves were "ill-equipped with armour or weapons in comparison with the Eldar of the West" in the Battle of the Last Alliance and suffered because of it, they might well have learned from that and become better equipped.
And let's not forget that the Woodland elves won all their battles in the Third Age. They managed to defeat Sauron's forces in the War of the Ring while the men of The Dale and the dwarfs of Erebor were initially defeated and only rallied back after the fall of Sauron. Lothlorien also repelled Sauron's forces, but they had the aid of Galadriels poweful magic. The Mirkwood elves only had their soldiers to fall back on.
So all in all I think The Woodland Realm is being underestimated here.
I think Mirkwood had closer to 10k size army than 5k. That area is huge and they haven't had any mass casualties over the ages.
Yeah, Thranduil only brought a companion force since he wasn't really expecting a huge battle. It's no more than a vanguard. 10,000 is a reasonable number for Mirkwood since these are the only elves who are actually growing and they have to rely on their numbers since they don't have any ring of power protecting them.
I speak Sindarin. The shade of my ancient ancestor, Isildur, still speaks to me in that tongue on the south banks of the Rhein. In the old days, he tells me, they named it Anduin.
Anduin ran south not north
Really appreciate your work!
The only adjustment, although it's a detail compared to the work made checking facts would be, could you offer also unit of measurement in the metric system as well, in addition maybe as text conversionto some numbersyou provide?
Once again, not critical or hindering your work, but a nice thing to have.
Thanks again for your work!
You mean on the maps? I don't make those ones unfortunately, but if I'm using them in the future, I'll see if I can make another scale. I know what you mean cause Imperial measurements don't mean much to me either.
"If the elves start fleeing into the ocean, it means something really bad is about to happen"
Yeah if sauron had won every single elf would be leaving middle earth in a hurry I could imagine some woodland elves would stick around but most would leave
"This is Rivendell!!" ~Elrond
I agree with a comment you made early on. The third and fourth ages sadden me so much with the disappearances of the non-human races. There's a part of me that wishes that Arda never became our world so that the magic could remain
I think Tolkien came to believe that magic never faded, it being an innate feature of nature. It is absolutely neutral, being neither good nor evil, that lying in the person who sought to harness and wield it. And we have whole sections of human culture who have drummed into their populations that magic is satanic and evil. Tolkien also wrote that not all Elves will ever leave the shores of Arda, electing to remain even as their physical bodies fade to nothing leaving only their fea. Still present but invisible to the human eye.
There was a saying referring to Tolkien-lore that our world is thousands if not millions of years after the events of the entire Middle-Earth mythos, which would be in line with the dominion of man and the diminished magic and other legendariums.
Rivendell may be a "House" but the valley it is situated in is huge, much bigger than the shows adaptation of it. During the War of Sauron and the Elves many refuges fled to the Valley to the point that Sauron considered the forces gathered there a threat. Suggesting that there were several thousand warriors and tens of thousands of civilians now hiding in Imladris. Then again in the War of the Last Alliance Rivendell was where Gil-Galads and Elendil gathered their army, supplied and armed it and their army at least consisted of the low tens of thousands and likely bigger. So the Valley Rivendell was situated in was large enough to house and provide enough food, water and other materials for tens of thousands of people to live there for years even if the Valley was under siege like in the War of Elves of Sauron.
yeah and its explicitely stated that Rivendell was Arnors strongest ally, and since they were also allied and aided by Lothlorien and Lindon it means the vally of Rivendell should have a larger number of warriors than either of these elven realms (although population-wise it should be smaller than Lindon)
I agree with your numerical assessment of the elven realms.
Great video, I totally agree with your estimation. Anyway, it's good you also mention that the Elves from the Woodland realm had the least powerful weapons compared with the Elves from the other realms. However even though they had such problem, I think the Elves of Mirkwood is still a very formidable warrior especially when their fighting in the wooded terrain, that is why I am not surprised they can win against Sauron's army in the Battle Under the Trees (I also think their army was also supported by the Beornings, which make them more harder to beat).
They were great archers, agile fighters, good for forest battles and ambushes but they had lighter and lower quality armors and weapons for longer close combat and field battles.
Their skill with bows along with their eyesight was probably the great equalizer. No matter how many orcs thrown at them, it was probably difficult to deal with this army of elves, well-camouflaged in the trees of their homeland, raining arrows down from afar with ridiculous accuracy.
The exact video I was looking for
Nice video, I mostly agree. That 2-300 men of Elrond was probably the most formidable force that time :)
Would you do a collaboration video with Men of the west's channel and History of middle earth's channel plz?
Is tough to quantify, since we're in a world where there is such a range in potency between the speaking peoples and amongst individuals -- where, as Gandalf would remind us in 'The Last Debate', "..there are names among us worth more than a thousand mail-clad knights apiece." He was surely not only referring to himself or the three elves in the vanguard, or obsequiously flattering the princes in his presence. This is probably an honest estimate of how Great the heroes and champions among the Dúnedain were, even in the waning years.
Exactly. When I read about the feats of heroes, Elf and Man alike in the first and second ages it further embeds in my mind how potent certain individuals are in the legendarium.
The movies skewed my perspective for the longest time. After looking at the books, I can see just how pathetic orcs are, how Uruk-hai are only as strong as middle-men and how high-men like Gondorians and Dunedain are absolute bosses.
@@gensaikuroki1793 Like when Eowyn perceives Faramir is a warrior that could best any of the Rohirrim, yet he is also grave and generous and intelligent and wise. And then Aragorn and his cadre would be on a still higher plane. But their level of Service is greater too -- so they are different from the heroes of, say, ancient Greece. Tolkien overlays a moral hierarchy upon the "racial" one. (Actually that word applies much more to that world than to ours, for those many peoples are fundamentally different from one another whereas we are not.)
Sorry to write a whole paper on this.
@@brovold72 I find it interessting that tolkien showed a bit of racism in this descriptions of the "white, strong and noble... just better than anyone Dunedain" ... i mean... all none-white people are evil Soutlanders or Easterlings. For the defence... Dunlandings are white and Sarumans allies too...
What i wanted to say... the old Numenorians are shown as far better than any other humans... but in the way of the Dunedain they not see themself as better... they have the moral sense to maybe know they are better but from this point see it as their duty from this gift not to rule but to serve the other folks...
@@brovold72 Higher plain there Faramir? I don't know about that. The books very clearly show Faramir as one of the Dunedain of old, and he accomplished great feats. Remember also his father had a running contest of wills with sauron for years, and when aragorn does it once he looks like he's aged 10 years.
Also, I like the middle men myself. Rohirrim does the greatest act of nobility outside of the Noldor when they decide to put their faith in their friends and allies.
Hence when the dunedain were losing heart inside the walls, the rohirrim decided to give a death to be proud of, and charged.
@@g0lgrim1 Well, JRRT does describe a non-egalitarian universe: some people are simply more exalted, by birth. I mean, the elves are immortal, for instance. But, being a foundational myth of England/Northern Europe, it might be a little more accurate to say the story simply does not concern itself much with the areas to the South "where the stars are strange". Maybe I'm being overly generous. Hard to say. Fortunately, the tale is not intended as an allegory for the primary world.
Elves: "If I get killed, I will be reborn in a fresh new body, ready to chill in what is basically a heaven for ever. So I may just fight against Sauron anyway, because I cannot really die. OR, I have a better idea, lets run away with tail between legs on a cramped ship to prove how badass I am...
They did make an alliance with humans and sacrifice a great number of themselves to defeat Sauron. They were living in the aftermath of that and Sauron's resurgence was the problem of men, not elves.
Imagine this: you can get to heaven in two ways.
First is by a painless lethal injection, just fall asleep and awake in heavens.
Second one is a bit trickier - you go fight a war where you probably die in agony after/during a battle or taken prisoner and tortured to death.
Both ways you end up in heaven with no differences. What will you chose?
For elves it even worse, as they probably will be denied of death if they get captured.
@@akolyadin great point
First not all elves are reincarnated. Some will be indefinately held in Halls of Mandos. For some it merely takes few millenia. For some longer. Rare cases may be able to leave in few centuries or so.
Also secondly; if you fight against Sauron as and elf, there is a real possibility he will kill your body and then "your shriveled spirit will be taken in Houses of Lamentation and your naked mind be left to be tormented by the Great Eye."
As might have happened to those who died in Dagorland. Sauron was never too merciful when it came to elves.
The situation of the Children of Illuvatar isn't so different, minus the whole being able to escape into the West thing the elves have - humans can only go hide in places where evil is far away. But even though humans have a more uncertain fate than elves, but they're only guests in the world and their souls leave it to go to a place that is probably pretty nice, right? Death is a gift to the humans by Illuvatar, the god of Tolkien's world, after all - which the elves and even the Valar will envy as the world grows old.
Great video if you could actually do a video with your estimate in the fourth age exactly when each race left works Dobbins trolls elves dwarves hobbits how long each race lasted before it disappeared
Reasonable estimates. I would think that the Sylvan elves under Thranduil and other Noldor would have learned about their weapon making, etc.
As for Lothlorien in Fourth Age, the diminishment of it's population may actually be connected rather to migration across river to southern part of the Mirkwood, Eryn Lasgalen, the southern portion was taken by Celeborn as East Lorien, the actual 'golden wood' may have been simply partly abandoned but still someone had to live there since Arwen was buried there after death of Aragorn. With the power of the elven rings gone, the mallorn trees may have deteroriated, the general power that protected Lothlorien so Galadhrim moving out to live in southern portion of the great forest across the Anduin may have been the reason why Lorien so quickly was emptied.
That's certainly a possibility.
IMHO A weapon is only as good as the person wielding it, and it would seem that having to contend with Orcs and Spiders, and also having fought in the War of the Last Alliance and the Battle of Five Armies, I would think that the Woodland Realm Elves would be sufficiently battle hardened to the point that it would negate their inferior weapons. Also, anyone know when was it said that their weapons and armour were inferior? Might add some context to assessing how weak their armour and weapons were, in that if the statement was made sometime in the past, the Woodland elves would have had time to remedy that inferiority. Just some thoughts.
Well all the men and elves except those in murkwood & lothlorien were forging gear for several years at rivendell before the war. Also they went into battle with a different leader since they didn't follow the noldor aka Gil'galad cuz the kinslaying . The war lasted for years aswell. It wasnt 1 battle. Lothlorien didn't follow Gil'galad either and lost more than they should have. Doubt they should have survived better than the rest with all their wars during the ages and kinslaying + being one of the active and strongest elven realm till 4th age if they were inferior. Remember lothlorien had the elven ring and galadrien still, Murkwood was the most powerful realm. Sure if counted with the old elves it a big difference. Doubt u consider Legolas inferior.
I didn't mean to imply that the Elves of Mirkwood are bad fighters. They were likely very good fighters, but in terms of weaponry and armour, they would certainly be behind the other Elven realms.
@@DarthGandalfYT yes forsure. Their continued resentment of the noldor after the kinslaying etc is what made them isolated. The other elves continued cooperate with eachother to create greater items/gear. While the elves (kings) of Murkwood where to arrogant to allie completley with anyone to improve and learn.
No technology is a big factor in war
@@shanewoody4232 yup. Steel is a huge advantage over bronze, and nuclear weapon ended WWII. The whole point of weapon is to make up for physical ability. Monkeys throwing rock can defeat lion.
Good shit. I’d think that Lindon’s population, given its size, would have a much larger elven population!
Bravo! You did a yeoman's job with little to go on.
i love your videos and i think you did a good job! although i believe you are underestimating the amount of elves in loth lorien and the way Galadriel’s ring nenya works. Loth lorien was the closest thing to the undying lands in middle earth and it was the “greatest” of the elven realms and many elves from all over middle earth flocked to it because of this. This was accomplished because of how Nenya works. the eleven rings are the most powerful aside from the one but their power is in protection, preservation, and protection. Galadriel was the one of the most powerful beings in middle earth in the third age. in either the books or his letters tolkien states that Loth Lorien would only fall if souron himself came with the One ring. so i think loth lorien would be the 2nd most populous land of the elves because of protections galadriel brought along with the fact she is an old, wise and powerful elf of the noldor and kinsman of gilgalad and her husband is a sindar lord who is one of the last kinsman of thingol the greatest King of the sindar. - - also i really likes what you said about elrond and rivendell being a HOUSE. i knew that but never realized the implications of it. i thought was really interesting. GOOD JOB
I think Rivendell's army may be a litte bit larger, Imladris is a kind of a hidden vale and not a single house, and I thought they have some companies around the Trollshawns and maybe in the Angle to help to protected the Northern Dunedain refugees as well as acting as a recoinassance force against a larger orc attack from the Misty Mountains and the Ettenmoors.
The same I think about the dunedain rangers, their entire force were not the tens of rangers in the Grey Company, I guess they were only their captains and/or their best warriors, most of them were protecting the borders of the Angle where their women, children and elders were residing, as well as some rangers were still kept outside the Angle, around Bree, the Shire, Evendim, the North-Downs, the Weather Hills and even around Rivendell itself, mostly in the Trollshaws.
I will put the Rivendell/Imladris army with around 500-1000 troops considering this, and also considering that most of them were veterans of war, mostly Noldor, beign refugees from Eregion, but even some people from Lindon who didn't want to sail west for some reason.
So could there be more elves living outside the elven realms?
I feel like the statement of "there was a larger population of Sindar speakers in Gondor than 3 Elven realms combined" implies that there is a population of Sindar Elves in Gondor, otherwise why would there be so many non-native Sindar speakers
Yes. There were populations of elves in Dorwinion and the far East forests. Edhellond near Dol Amroth use to be an elven port for the elves of the east and some elves left middle Earth from there. I also think a few elves lived in Elostirion and outside Rivendell in camps and even houses. But Rivendell being the last "major" settlement of elves remaining in the western foothills of the Misty mountains.
@@haleffect9011 But many Gondorian men of Numenorian descent would have spoken Sindarin and/or Quenya at least as a second language. But yes, there could have been some elves still living around Edhellond by the end of the third age.
The Avari presumably still live in the east, but apart from them, not really. You might get some Elves who temporarily lived in Gondor as guests, but there aren't any of them by the War of the Ring.
Sindarin was a second language in Gondor, spoken occasionally by those of Numenorean descent. The statement of there being more Sindarin speakers in Gondors than the Elven realms combined simply points out that there were more Gondorians who spoke Sindarin than there were Elves who spoke it. As far as we know, there was not a population of Sindar living in Gondor. Edhellond was deserted by 2000 T.A.
Lothlorien lead the attack on Dol Guldur thats right but they thought there together wit the woodland elves :)
I agree with all of your estimates except Imladris / Rivendell. Elrond was Gil-Galad's chosen heir for the high kingship. Elrond refused the crown because there were not sufficient numbers of Noldor to warrant a high king BUT he was also the heir of Doriath. All of the elves who remained from Gondolin and Doriath who had not sailed would have remained with their sovereign - even if he did not wear a crown and was called a king.
Elrond still supported the Dùnedain of Arnor as well as aided in keeping the roads and byways free in Eregion for the passage of elves journeying to the Grey Havens.
These two reasons plus defending a realm and a royal family of significant lineage would require a far larger warrior count than just 300. How much larger? I would estimate 2500 to 4000 warriors...not enough to fight off Sauron or even Saruman but enough to ensure the safety of a race of people and protect a significant royal family of the Eldar race.
I wonder what ultimately happened to Thranduil and the woodland realms.
The army of Dale in the war of the ring. I imagine the numbers from the hobbit must be a good starting point :)
Question: The Army of Dale in the War of the Ring?
Answer: Just not enough...
Dale and their allies the dwarfs of the lonely mountain coud not hold out against the invading Easterlings and lost Kings Brand and Dáin Ironfoot in their retreet to the lonely mountain on his doorstep. There the kings of man and dwarf got slain...
After the Easterlings sieged Erebor for seven days the news came from the south that sauron was slain.
The new kings Bard II and Thorin III Stonehelm used the loss of moral in their enemy and broke the siege.
After this Dale got rebuild and send a emesary King Elesars throne.
To Darth Gandalf What about the dark elves the elves that were twisted earlier by morgoth, where they even any around at this time or does it just not mention them?
They were mentioned to be in Dorwinion. And there was one note or letter mentioning the Avari to still be around.
@@doriansmorian5967 exactly my thought is that Tolkien would have made them the enemies of men in the next age.
The Avari don't receive much mention after the First Age. As Dorian Smorian said, Dorwinion is rumoured to be an Elven-realm or at least a place with Elven influence, but we don't know for certain.
We do know that some Avari that came west ended up being absorbed into the Silvan realms like Greenwood and Lothlorien, but we also know that there were no Avari to the west of the Misty Mountains in the Third Age. Presumably, most remaining Avari are still somewhere in the east, but they're probably small in number and are fairly isolationist considering Sauron has dominion over much of those lands.
Need to do how powerful the orcs were during the war of the ring now, that would be the final race unless you do Easterlings and Harad
I'll probably do videos for Sauron's forces, Saruman's forces and the Kingdom of Dale are on the cards. After that, it gets a bit difficult so who knows.
Does Tolkien mentioned in his novels the life or short stories on the undying lands where Elves,Bilbo,Frodo,Gandalf,Legolas,Gimli and Samwise goes after leaving the Middle Earth...
No unfortunately :(
In the lord of the rings it sounded like Lorien had a pretty big population.
I’m reading through what the Hobbit and the Fellowship have to say about Rivendell.
All that can be gleaned from the Hobbit is that elves live in the valley and not in the “house” alone. While I don’t picture elves as living densely populated together, they are extremely social creatures and would presumably fill the valley in clusters.
In the chapter of the Fellowship “Many Meetings” we get some information on the power that resides in Rivendell. And that power comes from the great elf lords who reside there. Glorfindel is a great example of one who can stand against the Nazgul.
Frodo asks Gandalf if Rivendell is safe and Gandalf says that in Rivendell there are “some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar... they have great power”
“Indeed there is a power in Rivendell to withstand the might of Mordor, for awhile”.
These statements definitely speak to the power of Rivendell being in specific lords and not necessarily armies, but throughout Tolkien’s history of Middle earth, power to resist the overwhelming forces of darkness does always comprise some level of military resistance.
At the council of Elrond, Boromir does make the statement: “the might of Elrond is in wisdom not in weapons, it is said.”
We see that part of the might of Rivendell’s defences is through magic, as demonstrated by the river being under Elrond’s control.
We are given the sense that Rivendell is quite a large structure, with multiple halls and many rooms. Many elves inhabit it “elves here, and elves there! Some like kings, terrible and splendid; and some as merry as children.”
We know that some there are fierce warriors who hunt orcs (the sins of Elrond).
At the council of Elrond, Galdor states that “what power still remains” (to defy the enemy) “lies with us, here in Imaldris, or with Curran at the Havens, or in Lorien.”
Elrond says of the elves rings that “they were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power”. Perhaps the rings could do less than presumed to hold back the forces of evil.
Cirdan has no ring and yet the Havens are listed as a place of power by Galdor.
We see in Rivendell, scouts and smiths.
I think my final assessment would be that the number of elves is greater than you have speculated. That the Havens and Rivendell would each have thousands of able bodied warriors and Lorien and Mirkwood more so. That even though Rohan has 12000 soldiers is it? And Gondor and the men of the south have something like 20000, including fortresses such as Helm’s Deep and Minas Tirith, that the Elves are still considered the most powerful resistance against Sauron and that this is not reliant on elven magic alone but also through military might.
It likely didn't help that the elves conflicted with the other inhabitants of Middle Earth i.e. when the army of elves battled the army of dwarves in the third hobbit movie where a lot were killed on both sides before the orcs came along and overwhelmed them. Along with that the elves didn't really prepare themselves or likely believed that they would be brought in with the battles against Sauron & his armies which was why they couldn't fully support in the same way as Gondor, Rohan, and other kingdoms of men came together.
When we guessing is hard to nail it … but overall is somehow reasonable but the numbers of lothorien I think was more … even en imaladris( Rivendell) probably have more warriors… I will say if was a 1000 ppl there as you suggested … I will say a 70% will be warriors sense that was a stronghold and they ride also and patrol around the misty mountains 🏔 the other thing we need to understand that sense elves don’t die some will perfect their craft to a level that any mortal can’t 🙏🏼✌️👍
Who should I talk to if I feel I am the reason the elves are fleeing into the ocean? Are there any warning signs I should look out for?
I'd say being a short French general with a desire to conquer everything would be a warning sign.
Please please do Rhun
My estimate
Lindon -
20k population (transient), 5k army-navy
Rivendell -
1k population, 300 army
Lorien-
15k population (they have few towns), 5k army
Mirkwood-
20-30k population(large realm), 10k army
Total
55-65k (diminishing) population
20k army (spread out forces)
When I was a teenager I use to think the same as you. However learning more about the elves, regardless that most of their population was skilled in combat, they would still have a similar soldiers to civilians ratio as men. Elves are not a warmongering nomadic people to send half of their population to war. They were same as men in enjoying peace, comfort, fear of war etc. While Gondor and Arnor had around 5% of their entire population in professional armies and the lesser more barbaric kingdoms of men having 10%. I do not think the number of dedicated warriors for either the elves or dwarves would go over 20% of their entire population. Gandalf is correct on this. The armies the elves could have mustered for a second last Alliance would be half or even a third of that compared to the second age. The Noldor during the second age numbered between 100k - 200k in Lindon, Eregion and Lorien and probably an equal amount of Silvan elves in the east. If we deduce the stated strength to be 10% of their entire population, then Lindon has
15 000 - 20 000
Lorien 30 000 - 40 000
Mirkwood 50 000 - 60 000, which is right around the estimates Stephen Wigmore and other researchers gave for the elven populations.
Using the upper limit of your provided estimates and percentages of warriors gives us: Lindon 4000 soldiers, Lorien, 8000 soldiers, and Mirkwood 12000 soldiers. I would want to bump up Lorien’s number, potentially by percentage. If any population on earth was 50%+ capable warriors it would be Lothlorien
@@doriansmorian5967 mine is the opposite. I used to think elves would have a lower percentage of warriors cause majority of them might not want to waste their immortality except for those adventurous ones. But reading about the battles of beleriand made me think otherwise. And while the elves might not have a warrior society, they would still have a higher percentage of warriors compared to humans simply because almost all of their population are more or less adults of military age. For pre modern human populations usualy have half of their population too old or too young to fight. And most of the fghting are done by males reducing the number of warriors considerably.
Maybe the elves do indeed have a small core of warriors but could be supplemented by almost everyone in times of dire need.
Compared to other races the Elves could field a far larger percentage of their population in their armies if needed, perhaps up to 45% of their total population. This is due to the obvious fact that elves are immortal. In comparison historically in a total war, during WW2, most countries could only field about 10% or their total population.
Almost a whole percent of the first Age elven hosts!
Are any elves "not warrior types" though? The books seem to describe all elves including women, seniors, musicians, etc. as having almost supernatural martial skill, saying for example that any women "that had not born child" (for some reason that is an important distinction?) was similar in strength and skill in battle to an elvan man even though only the men rode forth to battle. Galadriel is an example of this, she fought to defend her people during the kinslaying and was both an athlete and ring-roided up elf witch, but Celeborn leads Lorien in battle.
Even among the men, even though elvan healers supposedly never hunted and only went to battle in desperate times Elrond was Gil-Galad's herald and a skilled warrior. Cirdan was also lieutenant of Gil-Galad despite being an old man whose main talents were fortune telling and ship building.
This probably helps explain why the despite being so diminished in number, the elves were still able to repel many attacks from Sauron and even lead the attack on Dol Goldur after his defeat.
I always assumed the elves were greater in number than the men of Gondor and Rohan.
In “The Quest Of Erebor” from the unfinished tales, Gandalf states that he is sure that Sauron’s original plan (before Gollum wandered into Mordor and made Sauron freak out) was to build up his forces until he was “strong enough” to attack Lorien and Rivendell. I always took that to mean that Lorien and Rivendell were the two strongest centres of opposition. Granted, both are aided by the power of eleven rings, but I would find it hard to conclude that Elrond‘s ring could replace the tens of thousands of soldiers he would need to repel the army Sauron would throw at him.
Does it seem like Rivendell had 20000 soldiers? No. But I would be forced to suggest they had several thousand if this comment from Gandalf is to have any weight.
I would guess Lorien’s army would be at an absolute minimum, 10000.
"It may benoted that at the end of the Third Age there were prob. more people (Men) that knew Q., or spokeS., than there were Elves who did either! Though dwindling, the population of Minas Tirith and itsfiefs must have been much greater than that of Lindon, Rivendell, and Lórien.†".
This is from Letter 347, a letter that Tolkien wrote to a fan. This makes it pretty clear to me that the Men of Gondor alone vastly outnumber the Elven populations of Lindon, Rivendell and Lorien. If the Elven population is much smaller, then it's only logical to assume their armies must have been smaller too.
It would also make sense for Sauron to overestimate the power of the Elves. We're talking about an ancient demon that doesn't know what the Shire is, he likely has a perception of the elves' strength that is out of date by millennia, and also holds a seething hatred of them for beating him before.
Do the orc army and urak hai
Great vid! But I think Caras Galadthon had a higher population than you’re giving it credit for. The elves of Lorien weren’t living in the woodlands, they all lived in the tree city. I can imagine like a hundred elves living in every Mallorn tree like it is an apartment complex. During the second assault upon Lorien the place is attacked by both Moria and Dol Guldor, and they win! And win again after that, then go on the offensive. However I think their loses were probably more grievous than the books let on. Like you said, Lorien is abandoned by the time of Elessar’s death, that implies a lot of elf-widows going into the west...
Woodlandrealm most certainly the most powerful in numbers... but in actual fighting prowess and equipment, I would rank Lindon and Lorien higher!
They had the knowledge, skills and power of the High Elves (and each of the three other realms additionally had one of the three Elven Rings too), whereas the mainly Silvan elves of the Woodlandrealm ranked quite a bit behind them! The battle of the last alliance is a good example! Their losses were MUCH higher in comparison to the other realms
I think ppl forget that middle earth isn’t an old world it’s still a baby, there isn’t a lot of every race
Alot less then at a the beginning of the first age, we can assume. The entire age was marked by a slow but steady decline in the numbers of the Eldar in Middle-Earth - by the time of the War of the Ring I doubt the elves had even a quarter of the strength in numbers that they were able to supply during the time of Elendil and Gil-Galad.
Where were the elves at helms deep from?
Absolutely from Lothlorian, their battle march was the theme we hear when the fellowship enters Lothlorian.
Nowhere. In the book, the only elf at Helm's Deep was Legolas. Having the elves march to save the humans betrays Peter Jackson's fundamental misunderstanding of the source material. The humans are largely on their own. The humans had 3000 years after the war of the last alliance to get their act together and the elves are voluntarily giving up the world to them. They're not going to keep fighting mankind's battles on top of that.
@@Arizona-ex5yt shows your misunderstanding, Lothlorian was involved in multiple major battles in the war of the ring, they were invaded 3 times. the elves at helms deep is supposed to show that elves were fighting without adding the enormous run time that explaining all their independant fighting would require.
Peter Jackson pulled them from his arse (Legolas excepted).
Rivendell realistically has less than a hundred elves.
Also, please use the website called "Henneth Annun" which basically only quotes the books directly.
Nah its got servants and guards, I would say about 100-200 warriors
It needs to be protected
@@matanbaruch7728 From what? If i remeber correctly it is sayed the last homely house is open for every friend seeking it but hidden for every eye with bad intend.
I mean... if Rivendell was easily to find and reach for every enemy too the goblins of the misty mountains whould have taken it out long ago... for one hundret elvish soldiers more or less... XD
What about the Avari?
What about them? They were doing fine.
How powerful were armies in the second age?
Unknown. The Elves were still quite powerful in the Second Age. If I had to guess, the three Elven realms that were part of the Last Alliance (Greenwood, Lothlorien and Lindon) probably contributed 50,000+ in total. They took heavy losses in that war - Lothlorien lost half their army and Greenwood lost two-thirds of their army.
Imagine the first age oh boy
10000 is alot when you can live forever and always train for thousands of years
Are you Australian mate?
Easterlings next just because they have a crap ton of people
You manage to pull numbers like a magician pulls rabbits from a hat amazing. You must love mathematics and Tolkien so if you lived in that world you'd be a elves king or ? I worked with my hands so possibly I'd be a dwarf or halfling with a cool cottage under a hill .
how powerful were the hobbits during the war of the rings?
Like, they could fight off a bunch of elves if they gather for sure.
Hobbits never are destribed as powerfull...
Shortly after the fellowship formed and saruman showed this new evil face the shire got enslaved by Dunlandings under Sarumans command with a "governeur"-puppet Lotho Sackville-Baggins.
Only when the four hobbits of the fellowship returend to the shire expecting their former peacefull home and finding an dirty industrialiced and enslaved land the hobbit showed... inspired by the four noble hobbits who seen battles and adventures... what we can name power.
I will call it passion... passion to get their right for second breakfast, smoke herbs and the freedom to take along nap.
Why do the Elves have to disappear if the Age of men is coming? Aren't they both children of Ilúvatar?
A short explanation - Elves are connected to Arda in a way that Men aren't. Due to Morgoth tainting Arda during its early years, Elves will gradually weaken the longer they stay in Middle-earth. The only place that is safe from Morgoth's damage is Valinor. The fate of all Elves in Middle-earth is to either sail into the west or to eventually fade away into minor spirits.
Woodland elves did pretty good in the battle of 5 armies .... Kinda like the 300
The pronunciation of Lindon is incorrect.
How then?
But Galadriel and had a Ring of Power doesn’t that mean anything?
I think Lothlórien had 6000 and Thranduil 10000
well I could help increasing elf populations, lend me several elves girls, it will be done
There is something I just don't get.
Why wouldn't Gondor just move into Rivendell and other elven strongholds after the elves are gone.
I mean, these are all preexisting settlements located in strategic positions across the land. All they have to do is move in, they don't even have to fight anyone, and suddenly they have vastly improved their power projection capabilities.
And then there is the fact that the elves are on good terms with men and they probably don't want these places to fall into ruin. Why not give them over to men so these places can keep existing in one form or another.
It just seems really stupid to me that they would leave these places to fall into ruin when they actually have options to keep them preserved.
numbers,gondors been in decline for years, most of the dunedain used to live in cities in old arnor iirc but constant battling with orcs etc wittled them down to a force of travelling rangers. im sure it was something looked at in the fourth age after an extended time of peace, but aragorn had an insane amount of work to do just getting gondor back close to what it used to be, let alone thinking of expanding into former elven strongholds. plus given aragorn eventually united the old kingdoms again and had territories all over middle earth anyway, where that the elves used to live would be beneficial ffor him to occupy anyway?
how physically strong are elves
I wanna know what the breeding habits of elves were. It's like they don't reproduce. You'd think over thousands of years manpower (elfpower??LOL) wouldn't be a problem.
timmycrw91 I think because of their immortality they reproduce very little. Humans reproduce more because we have shorter lives. Its basic species survival. Even today places in the world with a life expectancy around 50 average 5-6 children where countries with 80 year life expectancy average 1-2 children. Some are even losing population like Japan.
There immortal they need to reproduce is low plus in the third age more elves were leaving then being born
Well, how many elves lives in the west then?
I'd have to assume the number would be in the low millions.
"Free" isn't a number.
The "th" sound is hard.
Dorwinion elves?
There's no definitive evidence that Elves live in Dorwinion so I didn't add them into the video.
If interested, here's some good writing regarding this subject, while likely it started out as an Elven outpost of sorts, there is no factual recall of Tolkien stating it was a land specifically inhabited by elves.
middle-earth.xenite.org/was-dorwinion-an-elf-kingdom/
@@ErelasInglor
Exactly. And from the quotes on Michael Martinez's article, along with others from the Appendices, we can deduce that the inhabitants of Dorwinion were not Elves but Men. And their descent was from the original Pre-Beorian population, alond with some Easterling influx due to their occupation, but also Northmen and Gondorian after the area became part of Gondor's East-lands.
@@paulmayson3129 you say exactly but the linked article by Erelasinglor refurs to the fact: Tolkien wrote Dorwinion “was probably far south down the R. Running , and its Sindarin name a testimony to the spread of Sindarin: in this case expectable since the cultivation of vines was not known originally to the Nandor or Avari.”
Tolkien essentially confirmed that Dowinion had Nandor and Avari.
now he also says there are men between the sea of rhun and the greenwood, but that does not mean there are not also elves.
Someone is hacking
Tevildo has a hairball.
When the maker of this video states that the Elves of Lorien were aided by the Ring of Galadriel, he forgets that the Elven Rings were not crafted to be used in war. That is stated plainly in several places in Tolkien's stories. So, while the number of fighting Elves was growing less, those of Lorien were aided by the power that was native to Galadriel & Celeborn.💀
Galadriel by her own self in the books at least is not that powerful at all, the ring was quite useful to keep the place relatively "young and unmarred" by the corruption of of Arda sought by Melkor from the very beginning, giving more power that way in general to the Lorien inhabitants, same for Rivendel and Elrond. Both where big fish in the absence of the true great elves from the past in the very shallow pond of the 3rd age.
@@HgHg-yp6ft Lorien was attacked 3 times by the armies of Dol Guldur, but the attacks were repulsed. Celeron crossed the Anduin with the host of Lorien and took it. "Galadriel threw down its wall and laid bare it's pits". Since, as Tolkien stated, the Elven Rings WERE NOT MADE AS WEAPONS OF WR AND CONQUEST, she could not have done that if she was "not that POWERFUL" at all.
@@russellbingham5819 No elf ever had the power to threw down castle walls bud, or you taking this allegory of her army doing it as literally her acting it? Goodness.And don't shoot please, so many immature kids of all ages those days. Sure Tolkien contradict himself often enough, but good measure for Galadriel "powers" compare to the true great elves was the first age when she was just shipped from one place for safety reasons to another, that's it. Finally as Tolkien state in the third age after all the greats were slain she got her heart desire to have a kingdom of her own fulfilled. Tell me one great deed of her doing in first age with the sons and nephews of Feanor the Great running the show battling Morgoth. I am not considering even Tingol as a big deal, it was Meliand powers which make him significant player..Feanor,Finarfin,Fingolfin,Maedros, Turgon, Glorfindel,Etchellion to name a few. Galadriel is nowhere near that level .The history of the elves in Arda do not start with the 3rd age, it's end there with a whimper.
@@HgHg-yp6ft Farmer Brown plowed his fields. Carpenter Joe built a table. Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare it's pits.That last was from page 468 of the Return of the King. Three statements of fact. It dosen't say how she did it; weather with the aid of others, physical might, or "Songs of Power"...although that last is more likely. It just says she did. I can accept that; why can't you?💀
@@russellbingham5819 Easy. Galadriel do not just pop up in the 3rd age, she got as long history there as anybody else, her literally doing nothing of the sort {or much more powerful than her elves} for ages is contrary to your interpretation of the allegory. Aids of others sure,her army under her leadership which was unquestionable at the time being. Songs of Power at this magnitude are reserved only for the Ainur, you kind of mixing her with the great half Maiar Luthien.In the Lord of the Rings{3rd age} she is the great super ancient and wise Noldor lady who had seen the light of the trees in Valinor, thats all and it is a lot for this age . Dont attribute to her powers which are in the domain of Maiars and Valars alone.
God i really dont like the elvish armour design in the movies...! Dont think tolkien would have liked it either
The Hobbit movies.
I think the elven armor looks good in the Two Towers
His name is Thranduil not Franduil. Lol
These numbers all seem far to low for a medieval setting
Most Elven realms didn’t really see war in third age
Medieval battles were very small compared to Roman battles and, of course, modern battles. The battle of Grunwald is considered one of the largest during the medieval period and its numbers are relatively small.
So do elves NOT... bang. For being immortals. Seems like they won’t screw to save there species.
There's a reason for this. Elves expend part of their spirit when having children. The more children Elven women have, the further they weaken themselves. Two examples - Feanor's mum gave birth to Feanor and pretty much lost the will to live because it consumed so much of her spirit. On the other end of the spectrum, Nerdanel, Feanor's wife, had seven children because her spirit was so strong.
Darth Gandalf that is crazy!!!! Do u think it requires more or less spirit from an elf to mate with a human ?
@@wheresmywall1626 Not entirely sure, but probably less. Men don't exist in the spirit realm as strongly as Elves do.
Why are there no black people or elves in the lotr?
There are. The Haradrim
Weak.