Good video. Over the last 40 years as an industrial electrician. I have seen many electrical connections (like on the devices you tested) get hot, burn the insulation of the wire, melt connection points of switches ,receptacles, terminal strips and such. You get the point. What I would like to see you do is this. On a 15 amp circuit. Hookup a load using 14 awg wire (torqued to the right specs on the terminals) of say 15 amps on the 16 amp maximum rated Shelly 1. Shoot it with your infrared tool hourly. maybe 8 to 10 hours. Record the results. That would be a great test. Thank you for all the great videos!
@@gutrali A thermocouple is better for this kind of testing since it can be positioned where the fault is expected. Also remember that circuit breakers can carry their nominal current "indefinitely" and only trip at a higher load so don't expect a 16a load to be protected.
SPOILER: I put a 14.5a load on both. The Shelly lasted 8hrs and heated up some, but not extremely hot, but the Mini died after less than 2 hrs. I don't think it was the relay that died because it won't even boot up now. I'll be interested to see what ya'll think might have been the weak link.
@@DrZzs I would look for melted solder at the input screw terminals; seems to be a weak spot. It isn't always obvious; may just be a crack around the through hole,
Reposting since this was buried in a reply. Shelly definitely supports n-way switches, but you can run into issues with persistent power in the right box. You can tap into persistent power from other regular switch in the box, if you have one. Another solution is to replace all the n-way switches with momentary switches (you can convert a standard switch to a momentary switch for free). You can then use the your neutral wire for neutral (just pass it through each box) one hot/load wire as a hot wire (I use black), and the other hot/load wire to carry the switched momentary power (I use the red wire for this). Attach the black and red wires to each switch and continue each wire to the next switch. Use the black wire (which is persistent hot) to power the shelly and provide power to the "I" port. Attach red to the "SW" port. Attach "O" to the light and "N" to neutral (white). Then, configure the Shelly app for momentary switching. This method should work for any n-way configuration.
I was surprised how close the prices are on these two items. The rating of the relay and the UL listing seal the deal for me and if I'm working on someone else's project there is no question which one to buy. The 12 Vdc and solar panels is also BIG. 12V bulbs and 12V controls mean no power loss through inverters. Good video. Thanks!
The Shelly switch is using the mains, while the Sonoff is using an isolated switch. This make it easy add the Shelly to existing wiring. Adding a Shelly1 to an existing 3-way, put it in circuit at the light end of circuit, let the existing N-way control powering the light, connect to the Shelly switch input, and the Shelly control the light.
for sure! I'm setting up some different 3-way examples for the next video "things I missed" So far I can only come up with one scenario where the Mini works in a 3-way setup. Haven't finished yet, so I could be wrong about that. Shelly is more flexible because you can also use the relay isolated from the circuit powering the device. I don't think that's a perfect solution. I seem to remember some electrical code issues with having 2 separate circuits in on device, since you might switch off one circuit breaker, but not the other, and think you're safe, but you really aren't because the other circuit is still on.
I use the Shelly 2.5, which also has temperature monitoring and cutoff. I used Sonoff for many of my switches, and it was great for the time. It is inconvenient to take it apart to get to the GPIO/Serial pins. The thing I love about the Shelly is that I just plug in my pre-made connector (for Shelly 2.5 it’s a finer pitch than Shelly 1), and flash Tasmota. I can do 4 in 2 minutes. As you point out, the stock firmware even can be used as is, but I like to ensure there is nothing that can “call home” in my smart home.
Thanks - have been looking at these for a project in a commercial building. Metal, square, backboxes are the norm in the UK - and the advantages in terms of the (now-available) temperature sensor add-on is fairly compelling. MQTT without the need for custom firmware is also a really good feature.
How is the shelly being installed into a metal conduit box ? As far as I can tell atleast in Europe, you install it behind a plastic switch, inside a plastic box.
A broken pull chain switch on my ceiling fan and this video inspired me to make a few modifications to my ceiling fan. I bought my replacement fan switch, and went back for a second one which I'll explain later. I exposed my wiring in the lighting portion of my fan. there wasn't enough space to include a mini sofoff, so I added it to the compartment above it, but that isn't where my pull switch was. So I drilled a hole to relocate the switch and the wires of the pull chain are both wired to the sonoff mini sw connections. Rest was simple, wired the power input and the output to the lights. Now for the second pull chain switch. I wanted to add a second mini sonoff to control the fan itself, but that pull chain changes the speed of the fan, so I added another pull chain to control the power to the fan. Adding the additional switch takes up the room needed for the switch, but the location of the sonoff mini would better fit in the upper mount box near the ceiling, but i had to run two wires from that box to the new switch. So now I have the switch on the wall turned on, a sonoff mini to control the fan, and one to control the lights, seperated from the fan, and now they both work through the switches, and Alexa. Love automation!
Glad to see you're still cranking out great content. I have a ton of Shelly devices in my home at this point. Great that Sonoff has put out a competitive device, but I came to the same conclusion and haven't bothered to buy and install any of the Minis. Cheers.
Great video! I had to make this decision the other day. I ended up buying the sonoff mini since I was able to get them at a discounted price. I bought 13 of them for $6.32 a piece from banggood. I wasn't able to find the shelly 1 any cheaper than $12/piece from amazon. I would have paid an extra dollor or two for the shelly, but not $6 more.
That's a smart decision. You'll be happy with the Mini. They are still a big improvement over the Basic. Get some Temp and Motion sensors to make use of those GPIO pins on the Mini.
I'd suggest buying direct from Shelly if you're in the UK. They make them in Bulgaria, so you should get them pretty quickly, and you'll pay less than you do from Amazon UK I'm sure.
Here's how it was explained in the manual from a "professional" thermal camera... 3M electrical tape has an emissivity of nearly 1.0. Place a piece of tape on the object you wish to measure and give it time to reach equilibrium. Then you can measure the tape to get an accurate reading. The other benefit is that you can then measure the part and figure out its emissivity value. The temp reading is divided by the emissivity to calculate the true reading. Therefore if you leave it at 1.0 you're reading the lowest magnitude. There are tables for material emissivities but the tape method is probably better than guessing. Not that what you're doing is super critical.
Nice comparison! I was about doing a comparison like that for myself as I want to convert several standard light switches into smart switches and do not want to lose WAF points :D so you saved my time ;) Thanks!
This is quite late now, but the fact that the Ground is referenced to L+ does not matter as the 120/230V is there compared to earth. Unless you ground the sensor you’ll be fine. I can guarantee the sonoff has the same problem even though the gnd is not connected directly to L+ i would still not touch it while powered from mains. So it should be equal for both in terms of having L+ potential on the ground pin in the programing interface.
Was just about to hit the buy button on some Shelly Ones but will hold off. i too really like the cloud and webserver interface, but a must have for my use case is to have user sharing. I need to be able to give other people access to the devices. Outside that constraint it it looks really good!
In the video you mentioned how the Shelly supports different input voltages. But you didn’t discuss output relay voltages. The Shelly relay is not connected to mains power. This means you can use it to switch low voltage devices like my gas fireplace. The sonoff relay is jumpered to the input power so can only switch devices with the same voltage as the input.
There's a bug on the Shelly 2.5's MQTT implementation that makes the device unusable with HA via MQTT. When the device is working properly, if one of the on/off relay is toggled via an MQTT command, physical switch, or Shelly 2.5 web app, the Shelly 2.5 sends out a status update via MQTT with the new state for the relay. In addition, it sends out 3 status messages (i.e., relay on/off state; energy, and power) on a fixed interval. Problem is that the device glitches sometimes where it doesn't send a relay on/off status update upon state change. After the glitch, the Shelly 2.5 continues sending status updates for "power" and "energy" on fixed interval, but no further relay on/off state updates is sent. The bug doesn't seem to affect the other relay on the Shelly 2.5 when one relay glitches (e.g., when relay 0 glitches, relay 1 continues to function normally and vice versa). The only way to restore normal operation to the Shelly 2.5 is to cycle power. After the glitch, I can no longer use HA to control the switch since HA no longer has the correct on/off state of the relay. I use the Shelly 2.5 to control two exterior flood lights. Just to be clear, here's a sample usage scenario: I use the HA Iphone app to turn on one of the lights, and the Shelly 2.5 glitches. The HA UI will still show the light as being off even though it is actually on. If I try to toggle the UI to "on," in attempt to make it reflect the actual state, it immediately jumps back to off because that was the last status received from the Shelly 2.5. I can still use the physical switch or the Shelly web app to control the glitched relay. But HA is rendered non functional for this relay because of the erroneous state in HA. The non-glitched relay on the Shelly 2.5 continues to function normally. As mentioned earlier, a power cycle restores normal operation until device glitches again. I first mentioned this problem on the Shelly Facebook portal. Dimitar Dimitrov, whom I think may be the CEO of Shelly, does monitor their Facebook portal. He replied and told me to email their development staff with the problem. I did but never heard back. I waited two week, then forwarded the email to the Shelly support group - still no reply. Another user complained on the Shelly Facebook portal about the lack of support, and I chimed in. Dimitar wrote back and said a new firmware containing updated MQTT implementation was about to be released and that I should give that a try and report back. It's 8/25/2019 today. I first reported the problem almost exactly 1 month ago. There's been two firmware updates since Dimitar's last reply. The problem persists in the latest firmware. Device glitched again today. I like the Shelly devices because of the small form factor, and that hasn't changed. I also liked it because I didn't have to flash it with Tasmota or ESPHome to make it work with MQTT, and best of all, I thought I would have official support from Shelly by running their stocked firmware. Unfortunately, their MQTT implementation is not up to par in my oppinion. Their lack of support is a also a huge turnoff. Keep this in mind if you decide to go with the Shelly. I may be flashing with Tasmota soon just to end the frustration of having to toggle power on the device, and articulating the problem to Shelly personnel with no response. I have not experienced this problem on a Shelly 1 using MQTT on their stocked firmware. But that Shelly 1 controls one of my door entry lights, and is activated mostly via the timer set via the Shelly web app. I have other Shelly 1s running Tasmota. Those work without problems.
@@DrZzs Yes, I did mentioned the problem on that page, but not to this detail. Most people commenting on the page seems to just use the Shelly cloud, so are not affected by problems in their MQTT implementation. The thing that bothers me most regarding this whole episode is the lack of response from Shelly's development and support staff. A simple acknowledgement of receiving my email, and that they're looking into the problem would have gone a long way towards enhancing customer satisfaction.
That is a bummer. Sorry man. Maybe try again. You can message Dimitar directly on Facebook. He's usually very responsive. Much more than the President of any other company I deal with regularly.
@@DrZzs I messaged him 2 days ago. No reply. I think he gave up on me. Would have flashed Tasmota onto the Shelly 2.5 already except I'm still not sure whether v6.6.0 fully supports the device. I know it's supposed to be supported via a template in v6.6.0, but read somewhere that I still need to compile my own binary with one of the #define un-commented. Do you happen to know whether there's a v6.6.0 pre-compiled binary that supports all capabilities for the Shelly 2.5?
Hey Tony!! How's things? Someone was asking about Certifications for these devices in Oz. What do you know about that? I recall you buying a whole box of Shelly's way back when they first came out. That's probably why I couldn't get any!
@@DrZzs Btw.. Both devices have similar but more like different purposes. Shelly is indeed very powerful toy, but I would use it for power sockets. It is 16 amps capable. Using it as light switch is ineffective from financial point of view. Sonoff is better for light switches. It is true that it definitely need reflashing with third party firmware, but the ease of use and power safety after that is better (for me). I don't have Sonoff mini, because my flat is full with Sonoff basics, but if I have to buy everything now I would definitely chose Sonoff mini for light switches. The price of the mini is too hight. I thought Sonof will sell it for 5 up to 6 or 7$ max, but I was wrong. Untill slight price drop I woud not recomend it.
@@hristoatanasov1765 I want to make a touch sensitive plate as per one of drzzs vids but if the Shelly uses mains on the switch that rules that out. Also getting shocked by 3v instead of 240 has to be a positive for the sonoff.
Your statement on the 10amp relay and the circuit breakers is not 100% accurate (respectfully interjecting). 10amps is the working load but that relay can trip a 30 amp breaker. 10 amps is just its reliable rating for normal life. Lots of people worry about that relay when they have 16 gauge wire in a can light that will burn up on a 15amp short. I would prefer 16amps but the 10 will do. Great video Dr.Zzs, you provide better info than anyone on this subject by far.
The two biggest deciding factors for me were the 16A rating, and more importantly, that the relay in the Shelly was switching a different line than where it gets power from. That allowed me to place it in an electric baseboard heater, which don't have a neutral line. One 240v wire from the heater went into the I/O and a separate 120v wire powered it from a nearby outlet. Does the Sonoff Mini act the same way or is it like the Basic, where the line going in is the same one that gets switched on the way out?
In other videos, I've seen it mentioned that the 16A relay rating may be to Chinese standards. Hence, it's maybe only momentary/surge rating and not a continuous rating. Would suggest caution if using loads above 10a anyway! :)
Sonoff let me press next after inputting a password to my router that had an extra space at the end ... then went to pairing attempt, and after 3 minutes, said "failed". 2 hours wasted. but finally removed the space.
Seems like the UL listing for the Shelly is rather suspect given the ease of pulling a standard gauge wire out of the connection and the lack of isolation of the GPIO pins. However, I do agree its a big plus if the use is for some sort of permanent mounting in an electrical box.
That was my biggest surprise. Maybe they will address that in the future. I'm glad they have the UL listing because it protects me if I ever have to fight with my insurance company, but honestly, the whole UL listing thing is a racket. If you have a decently built device and you pay the fees you get the listing. I'm glad Dimitar was willing to play that game and get the UL Cert, and I'm very confident that the Shelly is a safe device. I do hope they change connectors someday. Until then, I'll just be extra careful with my wires.
If they do that need to change every part in the device, and final price will be completely different. We has experience with Shelly and to pass UL we need to choose only UL terminals, PCB, relays, varistor, capacitors, ABS material.... If we found UL certified terminal connector will change it, but unfortunately the choose are very limited.
Definitely fits into that same as I said. Sonoff missed the boat big time on making a knock it out of the park product. They should try copying again.. Ha! Nice job!
thanks. ya, there's some room to fix all these things and have one prefect product. Shelly is able to move so much faster to innovate. It'll take Sonoff another year to update the mini. By then Shelly could have 10 new products out as fast as they've been moving lately.
In the video you say it’s UL listed. But the Amazon description (and Shelly website) doesn’t say that. You’d think if it was UL compliant that they would want to say so in the description to increase sales.
In practice not, each antenna need som room around to work good. If you have close metal parts the antenna charge frequency and lost sensitivity. On the table external antenna can perform well but in the wall where is many cables and metal box around is totally different.
1. Do I see it right that with Shelly you can control a blind with up AND down? But with the Sonoff mini you can't? 2. Is Shelly capable of Zigbee? (like the Sonoff ZBmini)
Great video, outcome was as expected because the sonoff is cheep junk in my opinion. A great test would have been to compare build quality. Although probably hard to do without a lot of research. You would need to compare the quality of the active components. Also an other great test would be longiverty. This world we easy enough to do with node red. Just setup a switch on/off automation to cycle every 15 seconds. The switch would need to be under a load of at least 20 watts. You could use node red to read back the switch status and record it. I bet the Shelly would win every time. The other thing I would love to know is how robust each switch is to interference. This was a big issue with the Sonoff. Not a problem as far as I have experienced with the Shelly
I just subscribed. First because of the quality and depth of your presentation. Second because of your original and non trivial personality, and third … BECAUSE you’re one of not many people who don’t ask for well deserved like/subscribe! Love it man, this was the first video I watched with you, I’m sure there will be many more! 😉
! ! ! Careful there dr Z's, the Sonoff Mini is *- NOT -* mains isolated ! ! ! Unlike the sonoff basic connecting stuff to the GPIOs will set you up for a major shock. The continuity tester won't show this because sonoff uses full bridge rectification, but try it on the diode setting, you'll see there is a direct connection from ground to mains via a diode.
@@DrZzs It's actually worse than that. In normal operation the ground of the esp switches between live and neutral 60 times per second. So attaching sensors or not mains rated switches to it is not the best idea. Try and measure between the esp ground and mains ground or neutral and you'll see what i mean. And there is power behind that, if you dare to risk (another) mini you can try it with a ligtbulb between the esp ground and neutral.
Since forums nor reddit have been helpful, maybe you can help. I have a Shelly 1 that activates a siren in case of panic. I've gotten it to work as a doorbell buzzer, by configuring it to auto-turn off in 0.5 seconds. So, when I press the button, it signals the alarm siren to start, and then it remains on until I press the button again. This is the way it should work, so I have no issues with that. Were the problem arises is that after the 0.5 second delay the light on the shelly or Alexa or Google turns OFF even if the siren is still blaring. If I press the button again it send the pulse and stops. In other words this is not a switch with an on/off state, but a buzzer that you press once to turn on and once to turn off. How do I set up the Shelly 1 to send the 0.5 second pulse and indicate it is ON until it is pressed again? I would really appreciate your help guys. TIA Alex
@@DrZzs I'd like to see that. From the diagrams on their website, it looks like the sonoff mini needs 3-way wiring that isn't popular (at least in the US). It has a third wire along with the two traveler wires going in between the two gang boxes. The shelly looks like it would work in my house as long as the load and a hot line are in the same box.
On the 3 way switching, I am not sure how critical that would be. One item can switch the load and the other could run as a salve only switch with no load connected to control the first switch. That would be interesting to see as well, to see if the cloud services support using the switch as a slave to control other devices. The Scene section may do that. You could setup a slave switch in a scene to control the load switch. As far as I can see, in 3 way switching you'd need neutral and live at both switch places.
I kinda did that the first time I made a 3-way switch with Sonoff Basics (which we still have in use). One Basic controlled the lights. I used the old 3-way wiring to send 120v to the other switch boxes. Then used that to power the other Basics, and all they do is send a message to HA to turn on or off the main one that controls the lights. I haven't used the device-to-device function of the Shellies. I might have to try that. Thanks!
As stated, Shelly definitely supports n-way switches, but you can run into issues with persistent power in the right box. You can tap into persistent power from other regular switch in the box, if you have one. Another solution is to replace all the n-way switches with momentary switches (you can convert a standard switch to a momentary switch for free). You can then use the your neutral wire for neutral (just pass it through each box) one hot/load wire as a hot wire (I use black), and the other hot/load wire to carry the momentary power (I use the red wire for this). Attach the black and red wires to each switch and continue to the next switch. Use the black wire (which is persistent hot) to power the shelly and provide power to the "I" port. Attach red to the "SW" port. Attach "O" to the light and N to neutral (white). Then, configure the Shelly app for momentary switching. This method should work for any n-way configuration.
Thank you for making this video! I was watching specifically to find out about the light switch connection... do you know if the sonoff works like the shelly with the off-on-off or on-off-on thing? If you have a shelly connected to a light switch you probably know what I mean, if not, that is when the light is on and the switch is off and you want the light off, you have to turn the switch from off to on then off again. And vice versa in the opposite state. It's not a huge deal and only causes a micro-pause but its not the most graceful implementation especially for guests and perhaps selling a home. Thank you again!
If you change the Shelly setting to "edge" it will change the power state of the device connected to the output port every time you hit the switch, regardless of current orientation.
i just notices something else. the shelly has a very straight forward connection diagram where the sonoff has the odd thing that both the input and output of the switch need to be connected to the device. in single switch setups this might not be an issue, but in cases where lamps are switched with multiple switches, this might be a challange getting the wire to start and end at the sonoff.
This was a pretty fair comparison. Comparing apples to apples in this case. The Certification and the 16Amp Relay makes the Shelly look good from a safety point of view. I like the Sonoff because the GPIO's are not at mains potential. If I needed just a switch and no sensors, I'd likely go the Shelly based on this. I'd still go Sonoff if I wanted sensors because the GPIOs are not at mains potential. The way the Sonoff grips the input wires compared to the shelly is pretty compelling in a wall box thatis hidden away though. I don't think this is an issue with either, but is there any significant switching delay? I would like to see a latency comparison in the cloud services too, for those that do like the cloud. See if they are the same or if one service lags more than others.
Thanks. I concur. I'm going to use the Mini's in places where I want to add a sensor. I haven't noticed any difference in response time. The Shelly app is sometimes a little slow to boot up and needs to search for devices or something. Not sure what that's about.
Security especially the cloud. Shelly is stored in EU or US depending on your location. I thought Sonoff is stored in Chinese servers. Other point is ecosystem. What different type can you buy and integrate from each?
Great video. you ask if you have left anything out. I miss a number of important comparisons. Can the DIY pin in the Sonoff Mini also be used to connect a sensor? And the Input on the shelly can be used with 230v, which means that it does not have to be mounted at the switch and the existing wiring can be used. What voltage does the input on the sonoff work? Thanks for all the other comparisons! For anyone looking for it: Button 1 (reset) GPIO-0 Relay 1 GPIO-12 Led 1 (inverted) GPIO-13 Switch Input GPIO-4 DIY\OTA Pin GPIO-16
Thanks! I've tried using the DIY pin without success. I'll try it again for the "Things I missed" video. Someone said it's tied to the sleep function but I don't know the details and I haven't been able to find a schematic for the Mini. Sonoff usually posts their schematics, or that have in the past. Sonoff can also take 230v input. The switch legs on the Sonoff are 3v. You can mount it at the light and use the existing switch wiring like you would with the shelly. It should function fine. Hopefully there isn't enough voltage drop to cause a problem with the few meters of wire going to your switch, but there's only one way to really know... I'll talk about the switch voltages in the next video too. Thanks!
@@DrZzs Thanks for your message! Too bad there is no datasheet yet. Just took a closer look the OTA Pin it is directly on GPIO-16 and true a 10k resistor to 3.3v maybe not useful for a temperature sensor but ideal for a door sensor, for example. Template of my configuration is now this: {"NAME":"Sonoff-Mini","GPIO":[255,255,0,255,9,0,0,0,21,56,0,0,255],"FLAG":0,"BASE":18} So you can directly connect a push button or door contact to the 2 pins where you normally put the jumper on for the DIY Mode.
DrZzs I think what Remco means is that the switch input on the Shelly can handle mains voltage, so you can both mount it at the wall switch but also in the lamp ceiling rose, using the existing wiring. That matters a lot here in Denmark where neither the Sonoff nor the Shelly is small enough to fit in our (very) small wall boxes.
@@MortenVindingSvendse Yes, this is a *really* critical point as to whether the switch input can accept a 230v live feed, none of the reviews I've seen so far seem to clarify this point!
The price difference is not as mentioned in the video. In Canada on Amazon, you can get Sonoff Mini single piece for $17. SHelly one costs $47! I can buy 4 pack of SOnoff mini for $47 and four pack of Shelly one costs a whopping $160!!! I cannot justify that price difference with 16Amp relay on the light switch (if not used for the socket) and a nicer app that I don't use. That means you are not even comparing devices of the same category. But the certification could be a deal-breaker as it balances the price difference. Although it's all in the metal box, so insurance agent would need to assess that. It could make a difference on the socket outlet.
Like the way you compared the two....one question though.....If the shelly is UL certified already....why isn't the UL logo silk screened on the casing...... I worked in Design and the guy who does our certification will tell me whether it passed or not...If it did then the UL logo would have been silk screened already which i don't see it on their casing....There are cases where products had to be manufactured and the silk screening couldn't be changed since there were dead lines to meet...So at the end once everything was ready to ship...We would add a little sticker with the UL logo to show everyone that it does comply.....To this date I only see the shelly 2.5 as being UL listed.......Please do correct me if I'm wrong Here is one of my designs that I design back in June of 2003...ITS STILL UP AND RUNNING ...this is unheard of in the telecom industry. www.positronpower.com/TeleLite_Fiber_Optic_Isolation/index.php
Hey DrZZs, I follow you since a while and all your videos are really the bible for me, including this one... and thinking about this, I am always really impressed about the quality of your video editing. Could you share the apps you use to make video editing? Sorry for the question a little out of topic but you always impress me. Thanks!
ha! Thanks . I use Final Cut Pro for all my editing. I use just a few transitions and effects; Slide and Drop Shadow mostly. FCP is only for Mac and it costs $300. If I were going to start over I would use DaVinci Resolve instead. It is free (with a couple minimal limitations to the free version), but even more capable than FCP. There are a lot of tutorial videos on how to use it. I also use Streamlabs OBS for live streams and to capture some of the footage I use for these videos. It is also free. It combines my webcams, screen capture, and mic. That saves me a lot of editing time. Without OBS I'd have to film all those things separately and put them all together during the editing phase. This lets me do more videos faster. I've been saying I need to make a "how to make a how-to video" video. Maybe I will do that soon.
@@DrZzs you are my myth ... thanks for the good explanation. I'll maybe try to do a video with the nice automations I made thanks to your tutorial... even with my bad english :D
The Shelly gpio being at mains potential is perfectly fine and perfectly safe (after all, the Shelly itself works, right?). The issue/hazard is to other things that might touch the gpio. Other things that are isolated or insulated are "fine". They also get lifted to mains potential, but as long as they are isolated, no current flows. But other things that are at neutral or Earth potential (like most Computers, most pets, and most Humans) suddenly bridge mains and earth, get 110V or 240V across them and current flows. This is between Bad and Fatal to the thing. Program a shelly1 connected to the power from a laptop (not charging), and it will probably be fine. But connect a desktop or the laptop plugged into the wall, and you get lights, noise, and smoke. No more laptop. Now, compared this to an "isolated" design like the sonoff or a USB charger: in the sonoff the gpio is at 3V relative to earth. The pin is at ground potential (or within 3V of it). A human or pet also at earth potential only sees 3V and very little current flows. No smoke. This is only dangerous if the gpio gets exposed to mains potential - like a loose wire in the switch box, Or an unlucky desktop who isn't isolated good. Which is why all of these IoT toys should be unplugged before they are programmed! And when installed you need to be very very sure no Humans (even small ones) or pets can touch any of the wires or metal bits (unless those metal bits are also safely earthed). Mains electricity is a powerful servant and a dangerous master.
Pretty funny review! One issue I had - when you say that for Shelly "you can just pop-up" it open it's not exactly correct - the case is glued, so don't try it.
Oz certs are much easier than nz certs :) (nz certs have been described as, "get the oz certs then jump through extra hoops"). A crowd out of Melbourne spent a few grand and got the TH16, TH10, POW, and dual, a SDoC or similar so they can legally install them in Ozstraya. A forum post,with links to the govt.au certs site is over here : support.itead.cc/support/discussions/topics/11000022110. So some sonoff at least are close-to-legal in oz/nz :)
Done. Video is filmed. Will be editing like crazy the rest of this week to get it out ASAP. The answer on the switchbox-fitting question is that they both fit fine. The Shelly is a little smaller, but it requires some extra wires which take up more space. So my conclusion is a Draw on this point. They both fit very nicely, neither is significantly better or worse.
Hi mate could you please do a video using a electronic magnetic bolt lock with the sonoff mini where of the door is open the bolt stays retracted and when the door is closed the lock locks but can be unlocked from your phone n add a way of unlocking from outside without your phone if you forgot it or something
Hello there, I have seen your work, its pretty incredible. However, my application is that, I want a smart plug that should stay off when power is cut to it(reboot). Means the smart plug should turn on normally, by turning it on by the mobile app or online app, or manual button and if the power is lost to it and when the power comes back the relay should not turn on(it should stay off). Smart plug could be turned on manually by app or button and the plug should remain on until it is turned off manually or if the power is lost to it. Its simple I just don't want the relay to turn on when power is lost and restored. I have to manually turn it on whenever there is power outage. The place this device is going to be installed experiences frequent outages, and I am using this smart plug to turn on a contactor to a motor. If you could guide me to make this, or buy a ready made smart plug like that, would be really appreciated.
I'm interested to hear why Shelly got the point on input voltage. The low voltage version Sonoff makes is less than half the price. Sure if you want one device and have it in the wall on Mondays then move it to the car on Tuesdays then sure Shelly's point. But surely you know what voltage you are going to use when you buy a device like this. Had the price been $100, then I could see the point, but these are cheap and buying two, three or 10 is not an issue.
Seems fair for a side by side comparison, you won't ever be able to wire this sonoff on 12v so you would have to buy another if wanted to reuse it at low voltage.
UL is worth more than anything else. Then relay rating. The connector strength is important, but I'd like to see some torque requirements before determining that Sonoff won that one. Oh yeah, great video as usual. :-)
You missed one point: when using the cloud, who you trust more to know your lights are on: the Chinese or the Bulgarians. Availability is an other point. Too often I found the Shelly "currently not available" and for some reason Amazon "does not deliver this product to your area" (W. Europe)
They had distribution troubles at first, but I'm pretty sure they've got that all worked out. Most everything is in stock and ships within a day. I thought the same way for a long time, that Shelly was too expensive and took too long to get, but they have corrected those things it seems.
@@DrZzs tnx, will give them a try again.....though emotionally I am more of a sonoff guy. It is Shelly's mqtt ability that wins me over. Too bad sonoff is missing that boat
Can I connect them to line - line voltage instead of line - neutral voltage? Because in our place, we don't have neutral. Our electrical connection is Line 1 and Line 2.
can the shelly 1 be used to connect it to a linear actuator with a 12dc without the need for anything else? I'd like to make something to operate a chicken door coop. and perhaps connect a solar panel to recharge a battery.. any thoughts/recommendations would be most welcome please.
Are you even allowed to use flexible cable in permanent installations? I think here in Germany it is against code. At the very least you should use end ferrules.
No. It'll be like a 3 way switch. If you change the state with the app or HA, then the next time you use the manual switch it'll have to switch in the opposite direction. So sometimes up will be on and sometimes down will be on.
The comparison needs to be done again. My mini has two switch inputs and two switch outputs, on a dual 16a relay. So please divide all Shelly points by 2, except the firmware part then :)
I think you're mistaken. The mini only has one relay. It can only switch one output, same as the Shelly 1. You must have some Mutant Variant of the Mini ;p I thought (and hoped) the Mini had 2 relays when I saw all the contact points too, but alas, it has only one. If there were to be a Dual Relay Mini, then I would compare it to the Shelly 2.5 I'd love to see a dual-relay mini. :)
Newbie question warning. lol I'm still binge watching so you might've done a video on this and I missed it but..... is using a Shelly or Sonoff type of device a way to make a "dumb" appliance smart? For instance my garage door or spa/pool. Can I use these devices to connect to them and make them smart and use with a hub like HA? Sorry if this is a very newbie question but I understand how to make lights go on and off or your temperature up and down but I am missing the bigger stuff like garage doors and pools. Thanks a bunch!
I am trying to get Home Assistant to work with shelly. It is the first item I am adding to my ha setup. I cannot find it in the store. I tried adding the folder and files as it says in the read me for shelly. Also added shelly: in the file. I am not sure where to do that. I appreciate your help.
I felt like I was paying attention the whole time, but am unsure which wireless protocol these devices are using? Is it Zigbee? Z-Wave? WiFi? or perhaps a combination of these.
Good video. Over the last 40 years as an industrial electrician. I have seen many electrical connections (like on the devices you tested) get hot, burn the insulation of the wire, melt connection points of switches ,receptacles, terminal strips and such. You get the point. What I would like to see you do is this. On a 15 amp circuit. Hookup a load using 14 awg wire (torqued to the right specs on the terminals) of say 15 amps on the 16 amp maximum rated Shelly 1. Shoot it with your infrared tool hourly. maybe 8 to 10 hours. Record the results. That would be a great test. Thank you for all the great videos!
I can do that. let me work on setting it up.
@@gutrali A thermocouple is better for this kind of testing since it can be positioned where the fault is expected. Also remember that circuit breakers can carry their nominal current "indefinitely" and only trip at a higher load so don't expect a 16a load to be protected.
SPOILER: I put a 14.5a load on both. The Shelly lasted 8hrs and heated up some, but not extremely hot, but the Mini died after less than 2 hrs. I don't think it was the relay that died because it won't even boot up now. I'll be interested to see what ya'll think might have been the weak link.
@@DrZzs I would look for melted solder at the input screw terminals; seems to be a weak spot. It isn't always obvious; may just be a crack around the through hole,
@@DrZzs Hi. Did the Shelly died after de 8hrs? Or not?
Reposting since this was buried in a reply.
Shelly definitely supports n-way switches, but you can run into issues with persistent power in the right box. You can tap into persistent power from other regular switch in the box, if you have one.
Another solution is to replace all the n-way switches with momentary switches (you can convert a standard switch to a momentary switch for free). You can then use the your neutral wire for neutral (just pass it through each box) one hot/load wire as a hot wire (I use black), and the other hot/load wire to carry the switched momentary power (I use the red wire for this). Attach the black and red wires to each switch and continue each wire to the next switch. Use the black wire (which is persistent hot) to power the shelly and provide power to the "I" port. Attach red to the "SW" port. Attach "O" to the light and "N" to neutral (white). Then, configure the Shelly app for momentary switching. This method should work for any n-way configuration.
Excellent!
Thanks!
Great video, another interesting factor would be standby power draw. This would also provide some insight into how hot the devices would get.
Those are both on the list for the "what I missed" video :)
@@DrZzs Is there a link in the description to the "what i missed" video?
I was surprised how close the prices are on these two items.
The rating of the relay and the UL listing seal the deal for me and if I'm working on someone else's project there is no question which one to buy.
The 12 Vdc and solar panels is also BIG. 12V bulbs and 12V controls mean no power loss through inverters.
Good video. Thanks!
The Shelly switch is using the mains, while the Sonoff is using an isolated switch. This make it easy add the Shelly to existing wiring. Adding a Shelly1 to an existing 3-way, put it in circuit at the light end of circuit, let the existing N-way control powering the light, connect to the Shelly switch input, and the Shelly control the light.
for sure!
I'm setting up some different 3-way examples for the next video "things I missed" So far I can only come up with one scenario where the Mini works in a 3-way setup. Haven't finished yet, so I could be wrong about that. Shelly is more flexible because you can also use the relay isolated from the circuit powering the device.
I don't think that's a perfect solution. I seem to remember some electrical code issues with having 2 separate circuits in on device, since you might switch off one circuit breaker, but not the other, and think you're safe, but you really aren't because the other circuit is still on.
I use the Shelly 2.5, which also has temperature monitoring and cutoff. I used Sonoff for many of my switches, and it was great for the time. It is inconvenient to take it apart to get to the GPIO/Serial pins. The thing I love about the Shelly is that I just plug in my pre-made connector (for Shelly 2.5 it’s a finer pitch than Shelly 1), and flash Tasmota. I can do 4 in 2 minutes. As you point out, the stock firmware even can be used as is, but I like to ensure there is nothing that can “call home” in my smart home.
I love the fact that the switch updates the app with its on/off state. Also that the switch still works without wifi.
great that it works without wifi for sure!
Thanks - have been looking at these for a project in a commercial building.
Metal, square, backboxes are the norm in the UK - and the advantages in terms of the (now-available) temperature sensor add-on is fairly compelling.
MQTT without the need for custom firmware is also a really good feature.
How about wifi range? It being installed into a metal conduit box
good point. I'm putting it on the list for the "things I missed" video to follow :)
Second this comment :)
@@DrZzs could you give us a quick answer in advance over here? ;)
I just did a couple test for the follow-up video. SPOILER ALERT: The shelly had a better Wifi connection.
How is the shelly being installed into a metal conduit box ? As far as I can tell atleast in Europe, you install it behind a plastic switch, inside a plastic box.
A broken pull chain switch on my ceiling fan and this video inspired me to make a few modifications to my ceiling fan. I bought my replacement fan switch, and went back for a second one which I'll explain later. I exposed my wiring in the lighting portion of my fan. there wasn't enough space to include a mini sofoff, so I added it to the compartment above it, but that isn't where my pull switch was. So I drilled a hole to relocate the switch and the wires of the pull chain are both wired to the sonoff mini sw connections. Rest was simple, wired the power input and the output to the lights. Now for the second pull chain switch. I wanted to add a second mini sonoff to control the fan itself, but that pull chain changes the speed of the fan, so I added another pull chain to control the power to the fan. Adding the additional switch takes up the room needed for the switch, but the location of the sonoff mini would better fit in the upper mount box near the ceiling, but i had to run two wires from that box to the new switch. So now I have the switch on the wall turned on, a sonoff mini to control the fan, and one to control the lights, seperated from the fan, and now they both work through the switches, and Alexa. Love automation!
Are you able to change fan speed? It'd be pretty cool to simply say "Alexa: turn fan on low" instead of trying to guess what speed it's currently on
Glad to see you're still cranking out great content. I have a ton of Shelly devices in my home at this point. Great that Sonoff has put out a competitive device, but I came to the same conclusion and haven't bothered to buy and install any of the Minis. Cheers.
hey Jay!
ya, Shelly is certainly a great device.
The antenas comparison would be a good additional criteria.
Great video! I had to make this decision the other day. I ended up buying the sonoff mini since I was able to get them at a discounted price. I bought 13 of them for $6.32 a piece from banggood. I wasn't able to find the shelly 1 any cheaper than $12/piece from amazon. I would have paid an extra dollor or two for the shelly, but not $6 more.
That's a smart decision. You'll be happy with the Mini. They are still a big improvement over the Basic. Get some Temp and Motion sensors to make use of those GPIO pins on the Mini.
In the UK a Shelly1 from Amzon is $18 and a Sonoff mini is $8
I'd suggest buying direct from Shelly if you're in the UK. They make them in Bulgaria, so you should get them pretty quickly, and you'll pay less than you do from Amazon UK I'm sure.
What about the power consumption?
I was surprised and disappointed how easily you pulled the solid wire out of the Shelly. Wonder how that got past the UL guys?
Very good point. Hope they have the answer
I was too. I don't like those connectors.
This is not the UL listed version. The ul listed version is not out yet
Great comparison video. I just received my order of 10 Sonoff Mini's yesterday. Can't wait to start playing.
They are good little devices.
Here's how it was explained in the manual from a "professional" thermal camera... 3M electrical tape has an emissivity of nearly 1.0. Place a piece of tape on the object you wish to measure and give it time to reach equilibrium. Then you can measure the tape to get an accurate reading. The other benefit is that you can then measure the part and figure out its emissivity value. The temp reading is divided by the emissivity to calculate the true reading. Therefore if you leave it at 1.0 you're reading the lowest magnitude. There are tables for material emissivities but the tape method is probably better than guessing. Not that what you're doing is super critical.
I learned a new word : Emessivity
;p
Nice comparison!
I was about doing a comparison like that for myself as I want to convert several standard light switches into smart switches and do not want to lose WAF points :D so you saved my time ;) Thanks!
excellent!
The best connector is the rising clamp connector no competition the rising clamp winds hands down!!
This is quite late now, but the fact that the Ground is referenced to L+ does not matter as the 120/230V is there compared to earth. Unless you ground the sensor you’ll be fine. I can guarantee the sonoff has the same problem even though the gnd is not connected directly to L+ i would still not touch it while powered from mains. So it should be equal for both in terms of having L+ potential on the ground pin in the programing interface.
Was just about to hit the buy button on some Shelly Ones but will hold off. i too really like the cloud and webserver interface, but a must have for my use case is to have user sharing. I need to be able to give other people access to the devices. Outside that constraint it it looks really good!
In the video you mentioned how the Shelly supports different input voltages. But you didn’t discuss output relay voltages. The Shelly relay is not connected to mains power. This means you can use it to switch low voltage devices like my gas fireplace. The sonoff relay is jumpered to the input power so can only switch devices with the same voltage as the input.
Dimitar pointed that out to me this morning. Major oversight on my part. I'll do a little update. That is a big difference. Thanks
Shelly1 is isolated relay outputs; shelly2.5 is at line :)
You forgot to mention compatibility and speed of response with smartthings and Google home etc
There's a bug on the Shelly 2.5's MQTT implementation that makes the device unusable with HA via MQTT.
When the device is working properly, if one of the on/off relay is toggled via an MQTT command, physical switch, or Shelly 2.5 web app, the Shelly 2.5 sends out a status update via MQTT with the new state for the relay. In addition, it sends out 3 status messages (i.e., relay on/off state; energy, and power) on a fixed interval. Problem is that the device glitches sometimes where it doesn't send a relay on/off status update upon state change. After the glitch, the Shelly 2.5 continues sending status updates for "power" and "energy" on fixed interval, but no further relay on/off state updates is sent. The bug doesn't seem to affect the other relay on the Shelly 2.5 when one relay glitches (e.g., when relay 0 glitches, relay 1 continues to function normally and vice versa). The only way to restore normal operation to the Shelly 2.5 is to cycle power.
After the glitch, I can no longer use HA to control the switch since HA no longer has the correct on/off state of the relay. I use the Shelly 2.5 to control two exterior flood lights. Just to be clear, here's a sample usage scenario: I use the HA Iphone app to turn on one of the lights, and the Shelly 2.5 glitches. The HA UI will still show the light as being off even though it is actually on. If I try to toggle the UI to "on," in attempt to make it reflect the actual state, it immediately jumps back to off because that was the last status received from the Shelly 2.5. I can still use the physical switch or the Shelly web app to control the glitched relay. But HA is rendered non functional for this relay because of the erroneous state in HA. The non-glitched relay on the Shelly 2.5 continues to function normally. As mentioned earlier, a power cycle restores normal operation until device glitches again.
I first mentioned this problem on the Shelly Facebook portal. Dimitar Dimitrov, whom I think may be the CEO of Shelly, does monitor their Facebook portal. He replied and told me to email their development staff with the problem. I did but never heard back. I waited two week, then forwarded the email to the Shelly support group - still no reply. Another user complained on the Shelly Facebook portal about the lack of support, and I chimed in. Dimitar wrote back and said a new firmware containing updated MQTT implementation was about to be released and that I should give that a try and report back. It's 8/25/2019 today. I first reported the problem almost exactly 1 month ago. There's been two firmware updates since Dimitar's last reply. The problem persists in the latest firmware. Device glitched again today.
I like the Shelly devices because of the small form factor, and that hasn't changed. I also liked it because I didn't have to flash it with Tasmota or ESPHome to make it work with MQTT, and best of all, I thought I would have official support from Shelly by running their stocked firmware. Unfortunately, their MQTT implementation is not up to par in my oppinion. Their lack of support is a also a huge turnoff. Keep this in mind if you decide to go with the Shelly. I may be flashing with Tasmota soon just to end the frustration of having to toggle power on the device, and articulating the problem to Shelly personnel with no response.
I have not experienced this problem on a Shelly 1 using MQTT on their stocked firmware. But that Shelly 1 controls one of my door entry lights, and is activated mostly via the timer set via the Shelly web app. I have other Shelly 1s running Tasmota. Those work without problems.
That's unfortunate. Have you posted that in the Shelly facebook page?
facebook.com/groups/ShellyIoTCommunitySupport
@@DrZzs Yes, I did mentioned the problem on that page, but not to this detail. Most people commenting on the page seems to just use the Shelly cloud, so are not affected by problems in their MQTT implementation.
The thing that bothers me most regarding this whole episode is the lack of response from Shelly's development and support staff. A simple acknowledgement of receiving my email, and that they're looking into the problem would have gone a long way towards enhancing customer satisfaction.
That is a bummer. Sorry man. Maybe try again. You can message Dimitar directly on Facebook. He's usually very responsive. Much more than the President of any other company I deal with regularly.
@@DrZzs I messaged him 2 days ago. No reply. I think he gave up on me. Would have flashed Tasmota onto the Shelly 2.5 already except I'm still not sure whether v6.6.0 fully supports the device. I know it's supposed to be supported via a template in v6.6.0, but read somewhere that I still need to compile my own binary with one of the #define un-commented. Do you happen to know whether there's a v6.6.0 pre-compiled binary that supports all capabilities for the Shelly 2.5?
With the 12V option on the shelly it might be nice to make it automatically start my vehicle in the morning in winter months here in michigan.
Great video doc. I won't use Sonoff in an in wall setup. I have a couple of wall plugs but I am replacing those with ones I can buy here is oz.
Hey Tony!! How's things?
Someone was asking about Certifications for these devices in Oz. What do you know about that? I recall you buying a whole box of Shelly's way back when they first came out. That's probably why I couldn't get any!
One plus of the Sonoff is that there are no mains on the switch connector :) But I like Shelly too .. :)
good point.
@@DrZzs Btw.. Both devices have similar but more like different purposes. Shelly is indeed very powerful toy, but I would use it for power sockets. It is 16 amps capable. Using it as light switch is ineffective from financial point of view. Sonoff is better for light switches. It is true that it definitely need reflashing with third party firmware, but the ease of use and power safety after that is better (for me). I don't have Sonoff mini, because my flat is full with Sonoff basics, but if I have to buy everything now I would definitely chose Sonoff mini for light switches. The price of the mini is too hight. I thought Sonof will sell it for 5 up to 6 or 7$ max, but I was wrong. Untill slight price drop I woud not recomend it.
@@hristoatanasov1765 I want to make a touch sensitive plate as per one of drzzs vids but if the Shelly uses mains on the switch that rules that out. Also getting shocked by 3v instead of 240 has to be a positive for the sonoff.
@@88kaneh true..
Shelly 1 v3 has a dry connection too
Your statement on the 10amp relay and the circuit breakers is not 100% accurate (respectfully interjecting). 10amps is the working load but that relay can trip a 30 amp breaker. 10 amps is just its reliable rating for normal life. Lots of people worry about that relay when they have 16 gauge wire in a can light that will burn up on a 15amp short. I would prefer 16amps but the 10 will do. Great video Dr.Zzs, you provide better info than anyone on this subject by far.
The two biggest deciding factors for me were the 16A rating, and more importantly, that the relay in the Shelly was switching a different line than where it gets power from. That allowed me to place it in an electric baseboard heater, which don't have a neutral line. One 240v wire from the heater went into the I/O and a separate 120v wire powered it from a nearby outlet. Does the Sonoff Mini act the same way or is it like the Basic, where the line going in is the same one that gets switched on the way out?
It's like the basic. the relay switches the same circuit it gets power from. I should have included that. I messed up bad not talking about that.
I just got my Sonoff Mini. It now has 16A relay
In other videos, I've seen it mentioned that the 16A relay rating may be to Chinese standards. Hence, it's maybe only momentary/surge rating and not a continuous rating. Would suggest caution if using loads above 10a anyway! :)
What about comparing the installation and setup?
Sonoff let me press next after inputting a password to my router that had an extra space at the end ... then went to pairing attempt, and after 3 minutes, said "failed". 2 hours wasted. but finally removed the space.
Hi, Good video - thanks.
I think you missed one thing, sonoff has an external antenna which may be good if you using in still box, like in Ireland.
Still box?
Seems like the UL listing for the Shelly is rather suspect given the ease of pulling a standard gauge wire out of the connection and the lack of isolation of the GPIO pins. However, I do agree its a big plus if the use is for some sort of permanent mounting in an electrical box.
That was my biggest surprise.
Maybe they will address that in the future.
I'm glad they have the UL listing because it protects me if I ever have to fight with my insurance company, but honestly, the whole UL listing thing is a racket. If you have a decently built device and you pay the fees you get the listing. I'm glad Dimitar was willing to play that game and get the UL Cert, and I'm very confident that the Shelly is a safe device. I do hope they change connectors someday. Until then, I'll just be extra careful with my wires.
If they do that need to change every part in the device, and final price will be completely different. We has experience with Shelly and to pass UL we need to choose only UL terminals, PCB, relays, varistor, capacitors, ABS material.... If we found UL certified terminal connector will change it, but unfortunately the choose are very limited.
Definitely fits into that same as I said. Sonoff missed the boat big time on making a knock it out of the park product. They should try copying again.. Ha!
Nice job!
thanks. ya, there's some room to fix all these things and have one prefect product. Shelly is able to move so much faster to innovate. It'll take Sonoff another year to update the mini. By then Shelly could have 10 new products out as fast as they've been moving lately.
In the video you say it’s UL listed. But the Amazon description (and Shelly website) doesn’t say that. You’d think if it was UL compliant that they would want to say so in the description to increase sales.
Shelly1 UL version is under production and will be available in Amazon from beginning of September.
I'm liking the Shelly but the external wifi antenna is nice for a metal box.
In practice not, each antenna need som room around to work good. If you have close metal parts the antenna charge frequency and lost sensitivity. On the table external antenna can perform well but in the wall where is many cables and metal box around is totally different.
strenght is not that relevent. once plugged, it shouldn't move that much. great review anyway. helped me a lot in my choice. thanks a lot DrZzs
1. Do I see it right that with Shelly you can control a blind with up AND down? But with the Sonoff mini you can't?
2. Is Shelly capable of Zigbee? (like the Sonoff ZBmini)
You missed the installation step. +1 for Sonoff in this case. Shelly needs some additional wago connectors.
Agree Sonoff is easier to install. But if you look at the functions Shelly is waaaaaay ahead of Sonoff so 2 points for Shelly in that case
Great video, outcome was as expected because the sonoff is cheep junk in my opinion. A great test would have been to compare build quality. Although probably hard to do without a lot of research. You would need to compare the quality of the active components. Also an other great test would be longiverty. This world we easy enough to do with node red. Just setup a switch on/off automation to cycle every 15 seconds. The switch would need to be under a load of at least 20 watts. You could use node red to read back the switch status and record it. I bet the Shelly would win every time. The other thing I would love to know is how robust each switch is to interference. This was a big issue with the Sonoff. Not a problem as far as I have experienced with the Shelly
I just subscribed. First because of the quality and depth of your presentation. Second because of your original and non trivial personality, and third … BECAUSE you’re one of not many people who don’t ask for well deserved like/subscribe! Love it man, this was the first video I watched with you, I’m sure there will be many more! 😉
points for who noticed the misspelling of "temperature" :) at 6:35. Nice vid as usual.
Just you, and this video is over a year old; Well done, sir. Hats off.
Congratulations, here are your internet points.
Just like shelly's firmware. That I am watching your videos (with my low level of English) says a lot about you. Thx
Great to hear!
Your English is great mate ;-)
! ! ! Careful there dr Z's, the Sonoff Mini is *- NOT -* mains isolated ! ! !
Unlike the sonoff basic connecting stuff to the GPIOs will set you up for a major shock.
The continuity tester won't show this because sonoff uses full bridge rectification, but try it on the diode setting, you'll see there is a direct connection from ground to mains via a diode.
oh dang. So a breakdown in some component of that rectification would result in 120v on the gpio pins? yikes.
good info. Thanks!
@@DrZzs It's actually worse than that. In normal operation the ground of the esp switches between live and neutral 60 times per second.
So attaching sensors or not mains rated switches to it is not the best idea.
Try and measure between the esp ground and mains ground or neutral and you'll see what i mean.
And there is power behind that, if you dare to risk (another) mini you can try it with a ligtbulb between the esp ground and neutral.
Since forums nor reddit have been helpful, maybe you can help. I have a Shelly 1 that activates a siren in case of panic. I've gotten it to work as a doorbell buzzer, by configuring it to auto-turn off in 0.5 seconds. So, when I press the button, it signals the alarm siren to start, and then it remains on until I press the button again. This is the way it should work, so I have no issues with that. Were the problem arises is that after the 0.5 second delay the light on the shelly or Alexa or Google turns OFF even if the siren is still blaring. If I press the button again it send the pulse and stops. In other words this is not a switch with an on/off state, but a buzzer that you press once to turn on and once to turn off. How do I set up the Shelly 1 to send the 0.5 second pulse and indicate it is ON until it is pressed again? I would really appreciate your help guys. TIA Alex
Doesn't the Sonoff work with 3way switches also while the Shelly One does not?
They both can work with in a 3 way switch configuration. I'll have to include that in a follow up.
@@DrZzs I'd like to see that. From the diagrams on their website, it looks like the sonoff mini needs 3-way wiring that isn't popular (at least in the US). It has a third wire along with the two traveler wires going in between the two gang boxes. The shelly looks like it would work in my house as long as the load and a hot line are in the same box.
On the 3 way switching, I am not sure how critical that would be. One item can switch the load and the other could run as a salve only switch with no load connected to control the first switch.
That would be interesting to see as well, to see if the cloud services support using the switch as a slave to control other devices. The Scene section may do that.
You could setup a slave switch in a scene to control the load switch.
As far as I can see, in 3 way switching you'd need neutral and live at both switch places.
I kinda did that the first time I made a 3-way switch with Sonoff Basics (which we still have in use). One Basic controlled the lights. I used the old 3-way wiring to send 120v to the other switch boxes. Then used that to power the other Basics, and all they do is send a message to HA to turn on or off the main one that controls the lights.
I haven't used the device-to-device function of the Shellies. I might have to try that.
Thanks!
As stated, Shelly definitely supports n-way switches, but you can run into issues with persistent power in the right box. You can tap into persistent power from other regular switch in the box, if you have one. Another solution is to replace all the n-way switches with momentary switches (you can convert a standard switch to a momentary switch for free). You can then use the your neutral wire for neutral (just pass it through each box) one hot/load wire as a hot wire (I use black), and the other hot/load wire to carry the momentary power (I use the red wire for this). Attach the black and red wires to each switch and continue to the next switch. Use the black wire (which is persistent hot) to power the shelly and provide power to the "I" port. Attach red to the "SW" port. Attach "O" to the light and N to neutral (white). Then, configure the Shelly app for momentary switching. This method should work for any n-way configuration.
Thank you for making this video! I was watching specifically to find out about the light switch connection... do you know if the sonoff works like the shelly with the off-on-off or on-off-on thing? If you have a shelly connected to a light switch you probably know what I mean, if not, that is when the light is on and the switch is off and you want the light off, you have to turn the switch from off to on then off again. And vice versa in the opposite state. It's not a huge deal and only causes a micro-pause but its not the most graceful implementation especially for guests and perhaps selling a home. Thank you again!
Better way is in shelly to enable momentary switch and install a spring in the switch
If you change the Shelly setting to "edge" it will change the power state of the device connected to the output port every time you hit the switch, regardless of current orientation.
i just notices something else. the shelly has a very straight forward connection diagram where the sonoff has the odd thing that both the input and output of the switch need to be connected to the device. in single switch setups this might not be an issue, but in cases where lamps are switched with multiple switches, this might be a challange getting the wire to start and end at the sonoff.
i just notices something else. i just recieved my sonoff mini, but mine does have a 16Amp relais.
It's just one 16A relay not relays and also the rating is not only relays, PCB and terminal connector must be rated at 16a too.
@@dimitardimitrov849 sorry for misspelling the word. I agree that all needs to be rated for the same.
Pro tip: Watch Dr. Zzs at 1.5 playback speed.
Do not forget, the DMU generates the WAF the decision making unit generates the WAF...
I have never seen that Switchbox in the Netherlands.
Looks smart, though!
I've never seen the Netherlands :)
This was a pretty fair comparison. Comparing apples to apples in this case. The Certification and the 16Amp Relay makes the Shelly look good from a safety point of view.
I like the Sonoff because the GPIO's are not at mains potential.
If I needed just a switch and no sensors, I'd likely go the Shelly based on this. I'd still go Sonoff if I wanted sensors because the GPIOs are not at mains potential.
The way the Sonoff grips the input wires compared to the shelly is pretty compelling in a wall box thatis hidden away though.
I don't think this is an issue with either, but is there any significant switching delay? I would like to see a latency comparison in the cloud services too, for those that do like the cloud. See if they are the same or if one service lags more than others.
Thanks. I concur. I'm going to use the Mini's in places where I want to add a sensor.
I haven't noticed any difference in response time. The Shelly app is sometimes a little slow to boot up and needs to search for devices or something. Not sure what that's about.
Security especially the cloud. Shelly is stored in EU or US depending on your location. I thought Sonoff is stored in Chinese servers.
Other point is ecosystem. What different type can you buy and integrate from each?
Great comparison. I agree with you. Shelly is a better product
Thanks
... was looking to buy a packet of Sonoff mini's but after this... I'm sold on the Shelly. now to find out how to get some. think packet of 5 is due.
excellent!
They have 4 packs on the Shelly.cloud website: shelly.cloud/product/shelly-1-open-source/?ref=24929
I'm using 5xShelly1pm for controllyng an electric boiler and 4x mini split ac. Two shellys died in around 6 months while no load on them wich is odd.
Great video. you ask if you have left anything out. I miss a number of important comparisons. Can the DIY pin in the Sonoff Mini also be used to connect a sensor? And the Input on the shelly can be used with 230v, which means that it does not have to be mounted at the switch and the existing wiring can be used. What voltage does the input on the sonoff work? Thanks for all the other comparisons!
For anyone looking for it:
Button 1 (reset) GPIO-0
Relay 1 GPIO-12
Led 1 (inverted) GPIO-13
Switch Input GPIO-4
DIY\OTA Pin GPIO-16
Thanks!
I've tried using the DIY pin without success. I'll try it again for the "Things I missed" video. Someone said it's tied to the sleep function but I don't know the details and I haven't been able to find a schematic for the Mini. Sonoff usually posts their schematics, or that have in the past.
Sonoff can also take 230v input. The switch legs on the Sonoff are 3v. You can mount it at the light and use the existing switch wiring like you would with the shelly. It should function fine. Hopefully there isn't enough voltage drop to cause a problem with the few meters of wire going to your switch, but there's only one way to really know...
I'll talk about the switch voltages in the next video too.
Thanks!
@@DrZzs Thanks for your message! Too bad there is no datasheet yet. Just took a closer look the OTA Pin it is directly on GPIO-16 and true a 10k resistor to 3.3v maybe not useful for a temperature sensor but ideal for a door sensor, for example. Template of my configuration is now this:
{"NAME":"Sonoff-Mini","GPIO":[255,255,0,255,9,0,0,0,21,56,0,0,255],"FLAG":0,"BASE":18}
So you can directly connect a push button or door contact to the 2 pins where you normally put the jumper on for the DIY Mode.
DrZzs I think what Remco means is that the switch input on the Shelly can handle mains voltage, so you can both mount it at the wall switch but also in the lamp ceiling rose, using the existing wiring.
That matters a lot here in Denmark where neither the Sonoff nor the Shelly is small enough to fit in our (very) small wall boxes.
@@MortenVindingSvendse Yes, this is a *really* critical point as to whether the switch input can accept a 230v live feed, none of the reviews I've seen so far seem to clarify this point!
The price difference is not as mentioned in the video. In Canada on Amazon, you can get Sonoff Mini single piece for $17. SHelly one costs $47! I can buy 4 pack of SOnoff mini for $47 and four pack of Shelly one costs a whopping $160!!! I cannot justify that price difference with 16Amp relay on the light switch (if not used for the socket) and a nicer app that I don't use. That means you are not even comparing devices of the same category.
But the certification could be a deal-breaker as it balances the price difference. Although it's all in the metal box, so insurance agent would need to assess that. It could make a difference on the socket outlet.
Here in the netherlands shelly 2.5 is like 10 bucks..
Like the way you compared the two....one question though.....If the shelly is UL certified already....why isn't the UL logo silk screened on the casing...... I worked in Design and the guy who does our certification will tell me whether it passed or not...If it did then the UL logo would have been silk screened already which i don't see it on their casing....There are cases where products had to be manufactured and the silk screening couldn't be changed since there were dead lines to meet...So at the end once everything was ready to ship...We would add a little sticker with the UL logo to show everyone that it does comply.....To this date I only see the shelly 2.5 as being UL listed.......Please do correct me if I'm wrong
Here is one of my designs that I design back in June of 2003...ITS STILL UP AND RUNNING ...this is unheard of in the telecom industry.
www.positronpower.com/TeleLite_Fiber_Optic_Isolation/index.php
Hey DrZZs, I follow you since a while and all your videos are really the bible for me, including this one... and thinking about this, I am always really impressed about the quality of your video editing. Could you share the apps you use to make video editing? Sorry for the question a little out of topic but you always impress me.
Thanks!
ha! Thanks .
I use Final Cut Pro for all my editing. I use just a few transitions and effects; Slide and Drop Shadow mostly. FCP is only for Mac and it costs $300. If I were going to start over I would use DaVinci Resolve instead. It is free (with a couple minimal limitations to the free version), but even more capable than FCP. There are a lot of tutorial videos on how to use it.
I also use Streamlabs OBS for live streams and to capture some of the footage I use for these videos. It is also free. It combines my webcams, screen capture, and mic. That saves me a lot of editing time. Without OBS I'd have to film all those things separately and put them all together during the editing phase. This lets me do more videos faster.
I've been saying I need to make a "how to make a how-to video" video. Maybe I will do that soon.
@@DrZzs you are my myth ... thanks for the good explanation. I'll maybe try to do a video with the nice automations I made thanks to your tutorial... even with my bad english :D
Connection existing wall switches it is easier on the shelly especially if you have more than one in the room
The Shelly gpio being at mains potential is perfectly fine and perfectly safe (after all, the Shelly itself works, right?). The issue/hazard is to other things that might touch the gpio. Other things that are isolated or insulated are "fine". They also get lifted to mains potential, but as long as they are isolated, no current flows. But other things that are at neutral or Earth potential (like most Computers, most pets, and most Humans) suddenly bridge mains and earth, get 110V or 240V across them and current flows. This is between Bad and Fatal to the thing. Program a shelly1 connected to the power from a laptop (not charging), and it will probably be fine. But connect a desktop or the laptop plugged into the wall, and you get lights, noise, and smoke. No more laptop. Now, compared this to an "isolated" design like the sonoff or a USB charger: in the sonoff the gpio is at 3V relative to earth. The pin is at ground potential (or within 3V of it). A human or pet also at earth potential only sees 3V and very little current flows. No smoke. This is only dangerous if the gpio gets exposed to mains potential - like a loose wire in the switch box, Or an unlucky desktop who isn't isolated good. Which is why all of these IoT toys should be unplugged before they are programmed! And when installed you need to be very very sure no Humans (even small ones) or pets can touch any of the wires or metal bits (unless those metal bits are also safely earthed). Mains electricity is a powerful servant and a dangerous master.
Excellent summary!
Thanks!
Pretty funny review! One issue I had - when you say that for Shelly "you can just pop-up" it open it's not exactly correct - the case is glued, so don't try it.
Love to know compliance of these devices in Australia.
good question. I wish I knew anything about the certification process for Australia.
Oz certs are much easier than nz certs :) (nz certs have been described as, "get the oz certs then jump through extra hoops"). A crowd out of Melbourne spent a few grand and got the TH16, TH10, POW, and dual, a SDoC or similar so they can legally install them in Ozstraya. A forum post,with links to the govt.au certs site is over here : support.itead.cc/support/discussions/topics/11000022110. So some sonoff at least are close-to-legal in oz/nz :)
nice! Great info thanks!
"Ozstraya" that's a new one ;p
Can you show us how the Sonoff mini fits in a single gang workbox beside a light switch vs the Shelly? That's my use case for many of these. 🙂
ya, I can do that. Stay tuned :)
@@DrZzs Sweet! Thank you, that would be awesome!
Done. Video is filmed. Will be editing like crazy the rest of this week to get it out ASAP.
The answer on the switchbox-fitting question is that they both fit fine. The Shelly is a little smaller, but it requires some extra wires which take up more space. So my conclusion is a Draw on this point. They both fit very nicely, neither is significantly better or worse.
@@DrZzs Awesome, thank you sir! Good to hear they both fit well. I think I'll go ahead and get a few ordered then. 😁
Great just ordered a couple of shellys
You'll be happy with them I expect.
Hi mate could you please do a video using a electronic magnetic bolt lock with the sonoff mini where of the door is open the bolt stays retracted and when the door is closed the lock locks but can be unlocked from your phone n add a way of unlocking from outside without your phone if you forgot it or something
Preferably with this lock ebay number 114157933998 thank you
IIRC In europe lighting circuits must be connected on an 10A circuit breaker under current regulatiions.
6amp uk
Hello there,
I have seen your work, its pretty incredible.
However, my application is that, I want a smart plug that should stay off when power is cut to it(reboot).
Means the smart plug should turn on normally, by turning it on by the mobile app or online app, or manual button and if the power is lost to it and when the power comes back the relay should not turn on(it should stay off).
Smart plug could be turned on manually by app or button and the plug should remain on until it is turned off manually or if the power is lost to it.
Its simple I just don't want the relay to turn on when power is lost and restored. I have to manually turn it on whenever there is power outage.
The place this device is going to be installed experiences frequent outages, and I am using this smart plug to turn on a contactor to a motor.
If you could guide me to make this, or buy a ready made smart plug like that, would be really appreciated.
Do I need natural wire both one working
I'm interested to hear why Shelly got the point on input voltage.
The low voltage version Sonoff makes is less than half the price.
Sure if you want one device and have it in the wall on Mondays then move it to the car on Tuesdays then sure Shelly's point.
But surely you know what voltage you are going to use when you buy a device like this.
Had the price been $100, then I could see the point, but these are cheap and buying two, three or 10 is not an issue.
Seems fair for a side by side comparison, you won't ever be able to wire this sonoff on 12v so you would have to buy another if wanted to reuse it at low voltage.
Wouldn't the 120v problem go a way if you open up the jumper pin area and switch to 12v mode?
Does it work with Amazon Alexa?
UL is worth more than anything else. Then relay rating. The connector strength is important, but I'd like to see some torque requirements before determining that Sonoff won that one. Oh yeah, great video as usual. :-)
Thanks
You missed one point: when using the cloud, who you trust more to know your lights are on: the Chinese or the Bulgarians.
Availability is an other point. Too often I found the Shelly "currently not available" and for some reason Amazon "does not deliver this product to your area" (W. Europe)
If you are in W. Europe it's better to order directly from Shelly shop (and cheaper!)
@@lennartbystrom3709 indeed, but often they were out of stock. Hope that is better now
They had distribution troubles at first, but I'm pretty sure they've got that all worked out. Most everything is in stock and ships within a day.
I thought the same way for a long time, that Shelly was too expensive and took too long to get, but they have corrected those things it seems.
@@DrZzs tnx, will give them a try again.....though emotionally I am more of a sonoff guy. It is Shelly's mqtt ability that wins me over. Too bad sonoff is missing that boat
can Shelly switch only contact but no current?
Can I connect them to line - line voltage instead of line - neutral voltage? Because in our place, we don't have neutral. Our electrical connection is Line 1 and Line 2.
Thanks for the review, pretty fair. I'm going with the Shelly One.
Thanks. You got quite a workout pulling out those wires. :-)
I think I got a hernia...
;p
@@DrZzs connect the one wire to both devices next time
can the shelly 1 be used to connect it to a linear actuator with a 12dc without the need for anything else? I'd like to make something to operate a chicken door coop. and perhaps connect a solar panel to recharge a battery.. any thoughts/recommendations would be most welcome please.
Are you even allowed to use flexible cable in permanent installations? I think here in Germany it is against code. At the very least you should use end ferrules.
So with the Shelly, ON will still be the ON/UP position on a standard US light switch? Or is it like the Sonoff and just looks for a change of state?
No. It'll be like a 3 way switch. If you change the state with the app or HA, then the next time you use the manual switch it'll have to switch in the opposite direction. So sometimes up will be on and sometimes down will be on.
Shelly one great garage remote and dorr sensor
The comparison needs to be done again. My mini has two switch inputs and two switch outputs, on a dual 16a relay. So please divide all Shelly points by 2, except the firmware part then :)
Dual 16a relay :) Both devices has just one relay inside :)
@@dimitardimitrov849 but it can switch two outputs right?
I think you're mistaken. The mini only has one relay. It can only switch one output, same as the Shelly 1.
You must have some Mutant Variant of the Mini ;p
I thought (and hoped) the Mini had 2 relays when I saw all the contact points too, but alas, it has only one.
If there were to be a Dual Relay Mini, then I would compare it to the Shelly 2.5
I'd love to see a dual-relay mini.
:)
Crap you are right, my bad. Does have support for 2 switches though. Keep up with the fun videos 👍👍
hi there, about the AMP, I have 15m of WS2811 60led/m, can I use sonnoff for regular swithing? its a 12v strip adresseble leds
OK, what AWG wire was that? Wall switches for lighting in US will be 14. If you used #12 then no wonder it didn't hold well.
It should have been 14. it was a spare piece I had from replacing switches.
I would have been interested in the temperatures after lets say 1hr, 2hr or 3hr with at least 10A (better 16A) current.
I can try that.
What awg is that stranded wire you used in your pulling test?
Newbie question warning. lol I'm still binge watching so you might've done a video on this and I missed it but.....
is using a Shelly or Sonoff type of device a way to make a "dumb" appliance smart? For instance my garage door or spa/pool. Can I use these devices to connect to them and make them smart and use with a hub like HA?
Sorry if this is a very newbie question but I understand how to make lights go on and off or your temperature up and down but I am missing the bigger stuff like garage doors and pools. Thanks a bunch!
Great video, as usual!
Now the real question, do you have a link for that awesome PCB ruler?
haha!
That was a gift for PCBway's anniversary. I got a t-shirt too but it's a little small so Dawson got it. www.pcbway.com :)
Great review. Thanks.
Do they have something that can used to control a 240V Hot Water Heater? Pretty sure it's 20Amp
hmmm, I don't think I've seen a 20amp smart relay. 8-16 amps is usually the max. I'm sure they exist, I just haven't used any myself.
This is great
I wonder if we have something that works with smartthings this cheap?
You need a MQTT bridge for Smartthings, but it is possible.
to compare work temperatures u need to load both to 1 kw or more and measure
fixed that in V2. Put them on a 14 amp load. SPOILER: The Mini didn't survive...
I am trying to get Home Assistant to work with shelly. It is the first item I am adding to my ha setup. I cannot find it in the store. I tried adding the folder and files as it says in the read me for shelly. Also added shelly: in the file. I am not sure where to do that. I appreciate your help.
I felt like I was paying attention the whole time, but am unsure which wireless protocol these devices are using? Is it Zigbee? Z-Wave? WiFi? or perhaps a combination of these.
WiFi!
Problem wiht de 10A or 16 A use the contactor in the sonoff mini.¿?
Just what I needed, thanks!
excellent!
Can any of them dimmer lights at the same time?
Another fantastic video. Thank you!
Thanks!