17 06 Dick Winters on Following Order That He Didn't Think Made Sense, with Commentary from Jocko
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- čas přidán 1. 10. 2022
- Jocko Podcast 17 - 00:42:38 - 00:50:40
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Because of Major Winter`s actions on D-Day disabling the 105`s that were trained on Utah Beach, I was able to grow up with a father, who landed on that beach on that day with the 4th Infantry.
Wow…incredible..
Respect
I agree 100%. My father landed on Utah as well. God bless Winters.
Steadfast and Loyal
Agreed my grandfather was in the 4th at utah
Maj. Winters spent the entire war looking out for his men, leading them with the utmost professionalism. He was a guy you followed into combat knowing he was going to make sound decisions. Thanks for sharing the video.
Some of them didn't think he was so great.
@@stevenobrien557
You can’t please everyone. In the beginning of the Crossroads episode, I remember Vets saying, “He was one of the best” and another saying, “He never thought of not being first, sending someone in his place. I don’t know how he survived. But he did”
@@TowGunner you mean those selected few who previously said nice things for the book and were paid to be in the show? Those guys said nice things?
@@stevenobrien557you sound like you can provide some interviews of men who thought he wasn't a good leader, care to share? If you can't, it just comes off as hating for no apparent reason
@@stevenobrien557Who said he wasn't good ?
My buddy who recently passed disobeyed an a direct order. He directed his convoy off route for a distress call. His convoy was closer than any other. Was told help was on the way and stay on route. A few minutes later the call comes out again on the BFT. He adjusts route and saves another unit in convoy. He's a CPT at the time and gets his ass chewed by his MAJ. Put in for a CM. When the paperwork got to BDE the COL came down, fired the MAJ . This is all a 2nd hand story and i was not there. But i have no doubt about it. His CAB and 2 bronze stars with v device convinced me. Sometimes you have to do what's right. Hard but lives matter.
I learned an early lesson as a new Platoon leader from my Company commander about "selective compliance". Never disobey an order. Never tell a subordinate to disobey an order. But you don't do stupid things. Selective compliance.
Part of middle management is knowing which orders to enforce and which to ignore.
Dick Winters should have a statue, and the military should have a Hall of Fame. If you dropped into an unknown LZ in France behind Hitler's front lines, winter in Europe with no cold weather gear, liberate a concentration camp, and march all the way to Hitler's house; you're 1st ballot. 🇺🇸
There is a memorial to Major Winters in Normandy.
Pretty sure the people who died fighting are the military hall of famers
He actually has a statue in his likeness in Normandy. If you ever get a chance, go see the D-day beaches. It will humble you, in the sense of sacrifice we made for the European Continent. You also, as you will feel in Belgium, is the knowledge that with out the USA showing up, that they would still be under Nazi rule.
WInters was an admirable officer to be sure, but there were lots of them in the AIrborne. He was not the only one by any means.
I actually got a chance to chat with Major Winter b4 he died. He told me he had Parkinson-s and didn't expect to live much longer. AIRBORNE ALL THE WAY, SIR. RIP
Let us all be thankful that men like Major Winters stood up to do the right thing when we needed them to.
My favorite leader is Major Dick Winters. I visited his grave in Ephrata PA on memorial day
I salute you.
i also
Winters seemed like he was the perfect infantry officer. Someone who gets the job done, extremely intelligent and his men would go to hell and back for him.
There is a HUGE difference between a true leader and a soldier who's main interest is their military career.
It's very interesting how Dick Winters noted in his book just how RARE good leadership is in the world. We aren't just talking about the military either, which is shocking to hear enough especially about the WWII generation which we all look up to, but everyone in every field and profession. I carry his words with me all the time in my professional life. I see on a daily basis just how bad people are at leadership, they get a leadership position and expect things to just go their way with a snap of a finger, but things often fail for them and they dont get it. Dick Winters knew it was earned and it takes a special man to truly grasp how to lead, and his men realized that thoroughly. I strive to live my life in a way Winters would appreciate.
Only a proven, decorated, Battlefield promoted, savvy combat officer would dare trying to get away with that! Major Winters was quite a man!
Winters noted in his book how rare truly great leadership is in this world. Not just in the Army and military, but everywhere (and we are talking about the WWII generation as well, who we all rightfully look up to!). Those are words that consume me at times in the professional world, and I see so many people pretending to be leaders when they just arent. From the smallest work positions to world leaders. Its a rare trait, and Dick Winters had it.
Spot On! This is the type of leadership you cant just READ and learn. You have to understand the broader concepts and the areas BETWEEN....you can call them the "gray areas" if that makes sense. But it is an AREA to work within and you have to feel confident in yourself to manage that as you OWN the consequences. Only true Leaders ever make it to that level of managing their sphere of influence.
The truth is not a sword to be drawn at all times.
That's why EVERYONE but Sobel ❤ Major Winters. He was ALWAYS looking out for his men. AIRBORNE ALL THE WAY, RIP SIR!!!
I was a infantry platoon sgt. in Iraq in 2005.I was given a mission that I thought was stupid and would have been dangerous to my guys for no reason. My response: Roger that. My action: drove about 5 klicks away. set up in a security halt till daybreak then continued on with a counter-mortar patrol. Regret doing it my way ? Not one damn bit
HMMWVs break down in the weirdest places, right?
Sometimes, your piece of the puzzle is needed for a more important operation elsewhere.
Without the noise of your contact, another enemy unit might not have been moved or distracted when the real attack dropped.
Your CO depends on you doing what you are ordered to do.
When you get creative, you weaken the entire army.
@OKOKOKOKOKOKOK-zn2fy that's why there's task and PURPOSE. Leaders that don't explain purpose get what they get
have you ever been in combat and been in charge of soldiers in combat ? if not STFU because you aint got a clue as to what we are talking about.@@OKOKOKOKOKOKOK-zn2fy
@@wyatt6721well stated.
It’s the “tell ‘em what they want to hear” technique. Poor leaders are often more concerned about being questioned or challenged than they are with disastrous mission outcomes.
Dick Winters was an incredibly rare man, an extraordinary man who had more backbone than a dozen regular guys. My opinion.
Was Non-combat USAF. At one assignment I was working directly for the Commander who was well known within the unit, and I later found out also at Higher HQ, for playing favorites within the unit. He would expect others to give special treatment to his favorites, not because they had done something extra to earn it, but just because he "liked" them or they had him convinced that they were somehow special. He also tended to forget that he had told you to give a favorite some undeserved special handling. Depending upon what significance there was to what he specified many of us NCOs, myself included, would just "forget" that he had told us to look the other way for a favorite or that one of them did not need to pull a routine duty that everyone else needed to do. In my mind it was a matter of treating the remaining enlisted for which I had responsibility fairly and not singling out one or two for extra light or no duty, just because the Commander "liked" some of them more than he did others. Never heard of any NCO having repercussions over any of this. Did find out the at Higher HQ several individuals lost out on promotions and awards because of the way the Commander did things caused the reviewers to discount his recommendations as favoritism on his part and not that the individuals were truly deserving of those promotions or awards.
this exact reason our military is so effective. I was told by one of my drill sgts "we are training you to take action without thought, but we don't want people without common sense. learn from your superiors and your experienced peers so you are a more effective leader because that day will likely come when you are suddenly in charge. common sense is what will make you a better leader". we weren't taught this specific tactic but it was pretty easy to figure out on my own. not to this level but when things are going well, command is happy. suddenly, one day, they aren't happy and want to change everything. you say "check rog, i got it" and keep doing what you're doing to get the mission completed. command comes back happy and proud like they did something amazing but nothing actually changed. also a great a way to determine if your command is worth a damn or not.
Rest in peace, Dick Winters.
I can easily see it from Winters point of view... disobey a direct order and risk court martial, enact the order to your best ability and you will take a few casualties, say no , get replaced and the team takes multiple more casualties
True American Hero 🇺🇸🇺🇸
In Marine bootcamp they taught us to have an immediate, automatic obedience to all orders. Theres a difference between theory and practice. There’s what they teach you in bootcamp and then there’s real life. The Marines weren’t big on having conversations about when it was hypothetically ok to disobey orders. It’s not a comfortable topic. But there seems to be an understanding, whether you’re an army grunt, a sailor, an airman or a marine, that the general rule is to follow orders even if you don’t agree with them or understand them. Though there may be exceptions in rare cases, because there’s also an understanding that the guys on the ground at the front have a better position to evaluate a situation than the officers sitting in a distant command center completely detached from the battlefield. There are ever changing factors and circumstances that command simply won’t be privy to. So if command gives an order and the officer in charge, being in the situation, determines in his professional judgment that obeying said orders would be counterproductive or detrimental to the mission then that officer’s refusal to carry out the order may well be vindicated (though they’ll still probably get their ass chewed at first). Instances of disobeying orders being found justified do exist. Like Major Winters example or the battle of 73 easting in Iraq, when the leading tank commander was ordered to fall back but instead chose to charge the enemy position because they had the clear advantage of surprise and disorientation over the enemy and he knew if they lost the initiative and gave the enemy time to regroup and reorganize, the enemy could launch a counter attack and turn the tide or at least inflict some serious damage. Disobeying orders is sometimes warranted but you better make damn sure you have your facts straight. If not, you’re dead meat.
I like your 73 Easting comparison. All the Recon elements had orders not to engage, but to identify, then fall back so that the Abrams could then handle it. At 73 Easting, the Recon elements came upon the enemy suddenly and in full range of each other. He was faced with the choice of attempt a retreat, which would give the enemy time to organize and fire into his flank, basically gifting his surprise time to the enemy to use against him, or keep his surprise time by pressing forward and immediately attacking, taking their tanks out while they tried to organize.
@@joshuachapman2065 The recon elements were the M2 Bradley’s, correct? It’s too bad they couldn’t have spotted them further out. Because the crazy thing about the Bradley’s TOW missiles is they actually outrange the T72’s 125mm main gun.
Army Vet here. The reason for the boot camp / basic training instruction to instinctively follow orders is because, as a new Service Member (regardless of branch) you lack experience. You lack scope of vision. You *NEED* to follow orders as a reflex because you don't know enough to make educated, informed decisions when you have less than a year in uniform.
As you serve more time in uniform, you gain the experience needed to make informed decisions, up to and including the decision to ignore or creatively reinterpret a lawful order.
Many men value things like integrity above all else, but in this particular circumstance the righteous act is to proceed with honor above honesty. Honoring the lives of his men as more important than a pointless objective.
We were tasked with semi-regular "Ethics discussions" in our unit on training days. I used this specific example and it generated some lively discussion.
Back in the day Pennsylvania local access tv, PCN I think used to have a guy go around and interview vets for their war stories, some of of the most incredible stories you’ll hear
You know what? Props to the guys for keeping their mouths shut.
Jocko: It’s not black and white!
Also Jocko: *is black and white*
Winters knew his commander well. He knew the his CO was drunk and that the order was ill considered. That context is very important in accessing the correctness of Winters' failure to obey the order. Suppose that the CO wasn't drunk and had carefully considered the order before issuing it. What should Winters have done then? He should have followed the order even if he thought it a stupid thing to do.
The presumption should be that the one issuing the order has information the inferior officer does not have. Maybe going on patrol to obtain more prisoners doesn't make sense from our perspective. Yet, had we all the information that our commanding officer has, we might see the wisdom in the command. However, this isn't a debating society. The CO shouldn't have to convince us that his order is prudent. A military unit, or a business, cannot function if every decision is up for debate.
Well written.
Dick Winters was a true original.
That was an incredibly powerful scene in the series if you know what is going on. The men were tired, they were burnt out, etc. they probably knew they were coming up on the end of the war and knew that all they had to do was survive every second of every minute of every day and they’d be home.
Imagine the relief that the men had when their superior told them that. Major Winters did the right thing.
Was it a "lawful order" if the officer was drunk?
From a young age I’ve always admired Maj Winters. Generational talent in the sense of leadership. West Point grads should worship him 🤣
West Point grads would worship him until they realized he was not a west pointer.
@@clintfowler2709 that shouldn’t matter but I can see how it would.
@@clintfowler2709 they dont have to worship him but they do learn about an attack on a fixed position because of Maj Winters
@@hazeyswayze9910lol that's just a bit of an exaggeration
I think one of the things that makes this most interesting is that Winters had a history of following orders and getting the mission accomplished all the while taking care of his men. He was honorable and his men saw it. In this instance, his men knew this was a one off where he disobeyed a direct order. Character is made not in a moment, but a series of moments. It is validated in that moment in the crucible.
Not the first time that Winter’s disagreed with his chain of command. He chose to have a trial.
Him and Meriwether lewis were one of the best leaders in U.S military history.
My dad told me a story about how they were ordered to set up an ambush in Vietnam. Evidently it was not a good idea so he said the only thing they ambushed were the ladies!! lol
Thank you for this vid. I read your book and just learned a valuable business lesson from this.
A lot more interesting is the NCO's who gave their Vote of Non-Confidence (not follow into combat) with the Trial by Court-Martial incident.
This happens all the time. I've had commanders do this in the 82nd. We had their backs.
I love Major Winters for doing what he did. I was kinda worried the the FNG West Point LT wouldn't keep his .outh shut but he did or was he promoted to get him away from Easy Co and Major Winters
Those officers are all gone now… and even then, they were exceedingly and tragically rare!
"People aren't advancing in the military because they're idiots." ...................No more un-true words have ever been spoken.
Says the guy cosplaying hero online. What was the reason you didn’t join? Or didn’t get promoted?
The difference between Jocko and Winters is Jocko would 100% sent them on that patrol things are better when it sucks right?
The other factors were that it was the end of the war, the germans were beaten, they’d been through hell and they were coming off the line the next day.
That's a tough spot to be in
Wasn't a lawful order since the CO was drunk.
Not sure you could get away with that today with blue force tracking.
Major Winters was a real leader and situations such as this only further that fact. In his off time he was reading field manuals and studying tactics and his men benefitted greatly from this. FLY NAVY!!!
This is only acceptable in armies that win and loyal sub commanders that dont do anything to bring up their commander. If Winters had not earned loyalty of his men and had an ambitious subordinate this would have been bad for him. Obviously he's a hero for doing this. But there were axis commanders who disregarded orders and they were ordered to present themselves for execution. Befehlsnotstand describes this where 23,000 german soldiers were executed during the war for refusing what they thought would have been bad orders. The united states military treats its soldiers a little better by prefferring jail time and dishonorable discharge to summary execution.
I wonder if there are any leaders like Winters in the Army now?
Interesting point by Winter's." If I had been a career officer". Officers focused on themselves and their career is common place. Officer build their careers on the blood and sweat of the enlisted. It seemed from the time I was in ,the officers who actually took care of their men were. rare
But at that point he was a career officer until he got pissed about not getting the MoH in addition to not feeling he could compete with the west point grads in a drawn down post war army. He said it in his book.
Commander’s intent
Is it still a valid order if the guy giving it is drunk?
Col Moore refusing to be evacuated for a debrief when still in the fight comes to mind..
Recently uploaded that story in Ep.105.
Super lucky he didn't get ratted out by the West Pointer.
I guess the West Pointer didn't want to go on the mission either.
If only more would use their own judgement than following
Insane orders!
COL Sink deserved MAJ Winters’s feedback. According to Winters, he had earned it instead of deception. Give Sink a chance to do the right thing with all the information. As it was, Winters had to enlist his men into the deception as well. Did Winters want his troops withholding their reservations, saying “Yes Sir!” And then not executing what Winters ordered, expected, counted on? It’s a very, very slippery slope and lives were on the line. Trust betrayed is never the best idea in that situation. Combat commanders should never behave passive-aggressively.
All that being said, Winters has been a hero of mine and I’ve not been in combat or had to make those decisions, so many of which he did brilliantly and gallantly. God rest his soul.
I'm not in the same class or experience as Jocko or Col. Winters, but the scenario presented happens often. One scenario not addressed is what if Col. Sinc had followed Winters to the river to make sure he complied. Hard to say what one would do then. Great leadership discussion with no right answer. Depends on situation, the personnel, morale factors, risk, & value of the mission.
Leadership requires judgement and justice. The context of this order was irrational - it objectively served no military interest to the US troops; it was given when a superior officer was drunk; it would have corrupted the trust in Winters and his men which would sacrifice future chances of success on missions that were of military interest to the US troops, etc. I trust Winters' call. His reputation and competence in the war was virtually perfect.
I’m not sure if the replacement-had Major Winters gotten fired-would have been a company man, i.e, a career soldier type. I suspect it might have been simply some poor schmuck thrust into a tactical situation with a more strongly-worded directive than the one that Major Winters had received-including “Don’t even THINK about pulling what Winters pulled!”-who would have arrived on the scene without the benefit of the big picture that Major Winters had benefited from. Just my guess.
What book is this from?
What makes it "right" is that if his superiors found out, Winters would have taken FULL responsibility for his actions. He wouldn't have argued over the legitimacy of the order, he would have simply accepted the consequences. I GOOD CO would recognize that, and though there may have been consequences nonetheless, it would probably not have been a career-ending decision.
But was it truly a "lawful order" if the colonel had been drinking, and the sober subordinate knew the risks would be extreme for no benefit?
didn't Maj Winters say never put yourself in a position to take from these men
"...People aren't advancing in the military because they're idiots..." They have been since 2009.
Unlike the “elite” pre-2009 crew that bumbled into Iraq on a lie and Afghanistan with high hopes as a strategy? Big clown comment, well done.
If you are a great leader, you know when wrong is right.
I would have followed Winters into the gates of hell.
Especially after that pivotal moment.
7:26 Everyone goes home alive.
I hate most officers anyway. So to find one that was great like winters is awesome. Never figured out why they get better things and could/have special privileges all because they have a degree in interior design. 4 years of combat experience all to get trumped by someone with four years of ROTC is mind blowing.
So in short, no the order was NOT followed. He didn't openly tell the order giver "no", he simply didn't follow it, and worked to cover that up "officially". He did the correct thing. But the title and lead in is misleading.....
You gotta decide who your God is. I don’t mean that in a woowoo sense. Your God is whichever belief, principle, or thing you will abandon last and serve first. When you promise to do something else, and you realize your God both calls you to not lie, and to serve its purpose; You recognize the lie, and serve the purpose. If your God is both one of Truth and Good at their Highest, the calculus gets easier over time. If it’s not, the answer gets muddier.
Might not have been a lawful order if, as you read, Cink had too much to drink.
If the order came frome someone who had been drinking or was fatigued, would the order be lawful?
I think he was saying that like metaphorically. “Had to much to drink” as in he just took it too far or got complacent or something like that. Or maybe he was drunk
He might've mentioned this but at this point the war was winding down. So the idea of needlessly sending his men to their deaths in a war that they are already winning just didn't make any sense at all.
@@dismemberedlamb9104Col Sink after the war was stationed at Fort Lewis. He was known as Bourbon Bob Sink for a reason.
If your supervisor or upstream chain of command has had too much to drink and is giving orders…. 🙄
We did this in Afghanistan a few times. NCOs would take us out on patrol and we would not go into the area in which we were supposed to. We would then RTB after a hour or so and report no contact.
If they had followed common sense during Vietnam, they would’ve accepted jail time instead of raining terror down on an innocent people.
“Innocent”
History is chock full of bad officers making bad decisions. Sometimes there’s no option but to do what you’ve gotta do other times there are instances of inexperienced gung-ho officers making reckless decisions for minimal tactical gain .Vietnam in particular with its 6 month officer rotation had a lot of these issues. Sometimes the mission is more important than the men, but if that’s the case American fighting men have shown they can handle it .
We just had this discussion at work 2 days ago. My argument was, "there are rules (orders) you follow WITHOUT QUESTION...and others you do...but don't." I grew up in a military family (I was NOT military). My colleague is former Army. I could VISIBLY see him bristle at my comment. He didn't say a word and he and I are tight...but I KNOW he HATED my comment. Sorry. Not sorry. It's just the way it is. Not EVERY command/rule/order, given by a "superior" (be it CO or "boss") is sacrosanct. Or even "good". SOMETIMES...you need to make a different call on the ground. And live with the consequences.
Probably just hated the fact that you were pontificating about a situation you would never have to face. Easy to run your mouth like you’re the Big Man in that case.
A different time and era. In WWII, they didn't have state of the art telecommunications, SATCOM, or drones. There was no way to make sure that he (Winters) carried out the order to conduct a 2nd patrol across the river/creek. In todays operations, you can't get away with not carrying out orders. There are too many eyes and people aware of your missions.
What Major Winters did is something that happens in all levels of leadership. Particularly, in high performing teams. Sometimes, the leader will give his team a break because the leader doesn't believe the mission is the right thing to do. No one would speak, no one would say anything, we would pretend to do something about and the leader would go back and say we couldn't do it for one reason or another.
1) Say no, get demoted, men die anyway.
2) Lie, risk 50/50 getting caught plus jail.
3) Obey and lose men.
#2 was the only choice that resulted in no men dying. Dude put his soldiers first and that proves it.
#3 is one you cannot avoid. Men die in war. You can't know the future. Sometimes you don't have the whole picture or all the intelligence. I am not second guessing Winters but, #3 is not a justification for refusing an order.
@@Smitty657211
But loosing men with the combined factors of no good end and a situation where the commander is not in fit condition is good grounds, and justification wasn't OP's point, Cot Winters priority for his men was.
But wasn't Winters, in fact, a career officer? I mean, he spent a lot of time in uniform.
He separated from the service right after the war. He was definitely not a career officer
he was back in during korea, training rangers or something, according to him in the epilogue of the series.@@wyatt6721
@@wyatt6721he said in his book he was planning on an army career then got pissed that they wouldn't give him an MoH
great topic. I have read my fair share of BoB stuff and videos, never touched on this, even in this 4 plus hour one on one interview with Winters czcams.com/video/D03pUpbIEZU/video.html which people just dont know exist, you can come back and thank me later lol.
LieLieLie, denydenydeny
They could have captured a high ranking officer, he doesn't know who they would find. It wasn't there was no benefit but low chance of success that kept him from going.
Major dick winters was the true definition of a hood leader. I was in the army and went to iraq and Afghanistan and trust and believe a YES MAN is a cancer and it will kill. Respect to major dick winters on caring for his men. That’s why they loved him.