Developers Killed Back 4 Blood Speedrunning
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- čas přidán 1. 01. 2022
- A story about how Turtle Rock Studios turned against the Speedrunning Community of their game. Watch the whole video, because this goes beyond Speedrunning. Turtle Rock's actions explained in this video should show the entire player base that the developers don't understand how to keep their game fun and balanced, and are trying to control player behavior with nerfs/buffs, instead of features like Vote to Kick, or editing the AI Director.
► [Merch] veiledthreads.com/collections...
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#Back4Blood #Speedrun #Maxylobes - Hry
After doing a lot more research, and hearing more thoughts on it (beyond Crowbcat's video), I've come to the conclusion that Back 4 Blood may actually not be more "evolved" like I said in the video. What I saw in B4B was "potential", not evolution. That potential could have made something truly amazing, and I will always stand by that statement... but obviously a lot of the things that Turtle Rock tried to do didn't lead to evolution. It led to wasted potential. For those of you who have commented in disagreement, I simply hope you actually watched the rest of the video. This video is simply a story from the perspective of the actual Speedrunning Community. NOT the dumb public lobby rushers. Thanks for watching, and thanks to those who have had such nice things to say about my work. Cheers.
It's a lot of small things we don't realize at face value, that end up making a big difference.
Good thing you realized it.
Sounds like the game is less evolved and more Evolve.
@@camunderlain ouch.
raised my brows when I heard that part. lmao. its a shame B4B turned out the way it is.
7 out of 150 employes who worked on left4dead are from turtle rock
Just a reminder to everyone: Remember, Turtle Rock is not the creator of L4D, but the creator of Evolve.
Oh god. How did i not see it. Both games were hyped to hell and back before launch, and then complete ass at launch.
A few more months and this waste of 60 bucks will be evolve 2, dead lobbies and almost no players
@@godofazureflames13 What is even more fun is they advertised Evolve just like they did B4B as "the creators of left 4 dead".
Yes yes we all saw the crowbcat video, good job.
@@godofazureflames13 people who played evolve said it was pretty dope, alot of people describe it as the perfect assymetrical game, it's just that the game was expensive, and all the shit inside the game was microtransaction ridden, like really bad microtransactions.
@@SadToffee i enjoyed it but every character was dlc and it was not enough for 50-ish quid, not even a single player just multiplayer, worth like 20-25 just about
Problem: Player is running off on their own
Left 4 Dead solution: Spawn a smoker, hunter, jockey, etc to punish the player for poor teamwork
Back 4 Blood solution: Attempt to remove the option to do so at all
remove running maybe even moving at all no more problem XD
they legitimately nerfed speedrunning. It's as if they don't want to learn anything from L4D2, no mods, no details, no gameplay nuances and now no speedrunning.
what a waste of time.
In L4D, it was entirely possible to negate those spawns due to being able to bash special infected mid-air. In B4B, it's possible to simply oiled-up-slippery-man past them and, even if you do get grabbed, use something like a stun gun, card, or Evangelo's inherent perk to break out half a second.
L4D's speedrunning community is based on skill with the mechanics. B4B's is based on cheese and exploits.
And just like L4D, the person who speedruns and skips when the other three are barely out the door, they're a dick. And in B4B, those speedrunners aren't skilled. They're people who have put in a couple of hours.
This whole video feels like a "they took my toys away".
@@bruhmyster813
Downgrade it to a Mobile port, where players are on rails.
@@veraducks
Obvious Bait.
They realized that there was a TINY chance that someone might actually enjoy this game and had to stop that at any cost.
technoblade reference?
@@casesater 👍
Bethesda: "These bugs are features"
Turtle Rock: "These features are bugs"
Different sides of the Chaotic Spectrum.
bethesda famous for their coop shooters
I'm reminded of the Principal Skinner meme.
"Are we out of touch with how people want to have fun with our game? No, it's the players who are wrong."
Actually, Bethesda still has issues that feel like targeting speedrunners.
@@artman40 Bethesda doesn't fix bugs to impede speedrunners, they create bugs to do that for them.
Reminds me of when I speedrun Remothered, a solo game. We had a glitch that would let us run instead of walk in autoscroller sections if you changed your keybinds at a certain point. We told them about this because they PROMISED they wouldn't patch Speedrun glitches. Their words "come on guys, have a little faith". Literally a day later the dev patched it. How did they do it? They COMPLETELY disabled the ability to change keybinds. They made the casual experience worse JUST to hurt speedrunners. And this was a single-player game so they had no excuse. I will never get why devs do this stuff.
I remember this happening. Remothered is a cursed game, honestly lol
it still makes my head spin that they did that lmfao
This is what i loved about bungie, back with halo 3 glitches were part of the experiance and were never patched because they were fun and didnt hurt anyone, they'd let you explore out of every map seeing cut and extra content as well as easter eggs or even something funny like ripping your arms off and having them stretch across the map on purpose.
The only glitch I remember them patching was the one that let you get inside the anti air wraith but thats because it made it too easy to get certain achievements.
Western devs are usually embarrassingly petty and spiteful losers. Harsh, but true.
Game devs and companies often have terrible social skills. Cliche but if history has taught us anything.. The times communication is good it feels like gold though.
Speedrunners: *Optimize for speed*
Nightmare players: *Optimize for damage*
Developers: First of all, how dare you
I imagine that how dare you in bass boosted greta's voice.
@Enioko I mean, you can still solo HoE with both. They were more brought to line cause they were just ridiculously OP. like solo 6 man HoE OP
@@ordi8725 well yeah, if you can't solo them on any class, what the fuck is the point of having singleplayer?
@@rsj2877 So, very tardy and condescending? lol
"It's much more evolved"
Idk if it's a pun intended, but "From the creators of Evolve" fits this line perfectly
The game has devolved :)
Same with the devs who can't just let people play the game however the heck they want solo or with friends. They put money into the game and they should have a right to play the game however the heck they want as long as they arent ruining other peoples fun or being toxic
They tried to evolve their games, but it was killed in the cocoon.
@@delivererofdarknessshoguno1133 especially to the game "evolve", quite ironic too.
@@gamingcantina9157 Yeah, tbh not even sure if it's the devs that are doing it, at least by choice, must be a higher up ordering it as I don't think any dev would honestly make half of these changes unless they literally don't test the game or don't have people testing the game and give feedback (or don't care about making the game fun or enjoyable, in which case, don't be a game dev), like idk, I just don't buy it, like if I made a game and made a change that got a ton of backlash like movement, i'd be like, ok, I messed up, `git revert` and boom, included in new update or do a hotfix, don't get why devs always double down on bad decisions, it's like what, is it a power thing, if you show you cave in, players will make outrage more often on bad changes and oh god, you'll listen to improve the game, so horrific, it's like, sure it's your game and you can develop it in your direction but... the players literally have the power, they determine if you get money, if your game survives, etc. Not sure why they double down, just say, we fucked up, we're sorry, we hope this won't happen in the future but if it does, you can let us know at feedback@gamecompany.com or smth
This dude was literally about to create a life long community for the dev's and they literally ruined it for themselves.
This dude literally just said literally that soon after literally just saying literally!
@@rude.comments literally.
If the devs revert the changes, the speedrunning community should just say fuck you and leave.
@@rude.comments literally
fr, among unpopular games speedrunning communities are consistently the most active and long lasting ones.
The easy and logical solution would be to add a vote-kick option to get rid of the guy running on his own, triggering every alarm imaginable, but instead they just dick on the speedrunning community and call it a job well done.
Legit 200IQ comment. Someone hire this man
I would argue the best solution would be to implement a special infected, or a mechanic, that specializes in picking off people by themselves/or are way out in front, and you can't break out of it with Evangelo's Breakout. Maybe if you're near water, a giant tentacle grabs, stuns, and drags Evangelo to the water, and if your teammates don't shoot the tentacle quickly, he gets dragged under and dies. The game badly needs vote kick, restart, and the ability to see other player's decks upon the character selection screen.
@@wusscake But that could ruin it for speedrunners, vote to kick gives players a way to kick anyone who is trying to do it just to be annoying without hurting the community itself
AKA literally what Left 4 Dead did 13 years ago.
No because then people would use the feature to kick people before the end of a level or just out of toxicity. I know it seems like a good idea but in the hands of toxic people it's not fun
Speedrunners: Hey this is pretty fun
Developer: I'm gonna have to stop you right there
I really enjoyed the doom eternal developer speedrun commentary.
Good, that means no more people speed running the whole level in a public lobby
@@crash4267 achievement unlocked: bad opinion!
@@jakezacche1254 cringe
>speedrunning
>fun
sure
Literally why I hate live service games
“Oh shit the players are having fun and experimenting and playing it in a fun style we didn’t necessarily intend better ruin everything for everyone”
THEY ASKED MORE SKINS
It is entirely your fault for buying a live service game in the first place.
Trueeee
@@notatrap6586 This is a fair take on it really. Also a game dev does not have to make a game speed run friendly its nice if they do but speed running is a very small slice of the pie if you need to chose between the average user and the speed running community you pick the average Joes every single time.
There are very good reasons for not allowing people to downgrade a live service game or to fuck the meta for the aforementioned average users which speed-running stats and builds can do.
@@smoky-phil7694
The thing is that kneecapping the speedrunners ended up having a domino effect which ended up impacting the average joe anyway
Reminder that, following the Last Stand Update, L4D2 had a bunch of large skips and tricks patched out of the game…
…to only be immediately reverted in singleplayer and co-op game modes whilst keeping the changes in versus because the people who worked on TLS update have actual brains.
Aka: The last stand update is good because it was made by actual living people who know what others like them enjoy and wasn't made by mindless company drones who listen to their hive mind.
It's a great idea honestly. Won't make PvP broken.
And keeps the regular experience for standard modes.
Balanced PvP AND a functional co-op or speedrunning environment?! Who could even begin to design such a thing!
@@unoriginalperson72 yeah sadly with gaming, there will be companies just looking to make money and not companies that are actual gamers that enjoy games and want to make enjoyable games
@@JordanPlayz158 That's what happens when something goes mainstream, it used to be made from passion, now it's just made for business.
Left 4 Dead fixes the problem of players rushing ahead by spawning hordes and special infected to specificaly target them, causing them to have a high chance of slowing down and getting stuck to death.
And even then speedrunning is still possible
You saw those moments when player who's running get captured in video, right? So imagine developers removing Angelo's ability to run away from capture, and instead of blaming speed deck nerf people would blame Angelo nerf, aren't they.
You can still outrun all infected in b4b.
@@PancakemonsterFO4 yeah, cuz it's all about not making mistakes and thinking outside of the box. Like taking routes that were never meant to be taken or using a glitch. Why do you think speedrunners are not against using glitches and bugs. Some games were just not meant to be speed run, or in the case of Left 4 dead, not meant to be spend run without cooperating properly with your team. You can speedrun Left 4 Dead with your team if you guys cooperate. But doing a solo, you got to get creative. And this is coming from a guy who doesn't even really like speed running himself. I've just seen a few speed running videos of Left 4 dead. People get really fucking creative when they want to get to the other side of a building or a Wall.
Respect for blood it's all about a good deck. With Left 4 dead, your skills came more so from your ingenuity and you just paying attention. Never mind your proper cooperation and communication in the case of playing with teammates.
@@HK47_115 just because a game is in the same genre and shares mechanics that doesn't mean they all have to be played the same. If the game gives you speedrun cards that only make sense to soely build your deck around if you can stand your own ground speedrunners should be able to use said speedrun mechanics instead of nerfing something only a minority of your playerbase will ever attempt while there are more important issues to focus on (as in harder difficulties being borderline unplayable and people hating fixed gun parts)
You might not have noticed it but plenty of games try to be MORE speedrun-friendly not the opposite because the speedrun community keeps your game alive and there is still space for improvement even if tools like speedrun cards exist
Original Left 4 Dead only ever fixed the really cheaty aspects. Ghost scratching, invincible door rooms, and the dumping of an entire clip in a second come to mind. Other aspects or elements they hadn't expected, like certain areas being horribly nasty ambush points, just became part of the online experience and learning curve.
Because a lot of the developers at Valve were always very aware of how the best games are created by the players as much as the developers. Be it through modding, or clever use of game mechanics to come up with weird and interesting ways to play.
And this kind of super-hands on patching/nerfing/babysitting never ever works for holding a playerbase. Even the most airtight balanced games will have salty players complaining that something is unbalanced. And most of the time those players are either casual players who are gonna stop playing in a week or two anyway, or players that will complain but keep on playing anyway. The other players are those who've already embraced the systems as they are and trying to make the most of them and have fun, and that just means when you patch shit like this all you're doing is making a bunch of previously happy players unhappy, whilst simultaneously almost never appeasing those who originally complained. It's just dumb.
Oh we're playing versus and I'm a smoker? There's no collision on this cranes control room? There's a window and a ledge right there survivors HAVE to go through? ...HEHEHE
Hey I just wanna say I remember the smg mag dump and it WAS the mfin strat to handle tanks. It was a feature xd
This is actually funny in a tragic sort of way... Back4Blood finally finds a playerbase who is committed to the game and has fun with it. Turtle Rock Studios: "I guess we've gotta change the game now..."
when the devs are the issue
Turtle Rock Studios is committed to building the best game that nobody wants to play.
From the moment they confirmed that there's no modding community like l4ds, its already a sign that they have an intent to play god and control their players. Its like they're nerfing speed in general so that players are gonna take time to explore and look at their game even though the more we look at it, the more we realize its undeserving of the "from the creators of the critically acclaimed Left 4 Dead franchise".
Considering that only 7 of the 184 people who worked on the L4D series are at Turtle Rock kind of invalidate that claim altogether.
“From the creators of Evolve” is more appropriate for these shitbirds.
@@crimsondynamo615 destroyers* of evolve
It's because of the left's lack of work ethic, Sonic
@@sauvagess This does seem more like someone who has nothing to do with L4D trying to make a superficial rip-off. It has the same stench as dozens of other early-access Zombie games that have filled steam since 2012.
Between this and Crowbcat's video I'm convinced turtle rock is unable to balance a game or make it fun, and this comes from someone who loved evolve and wanted more of it, the game just wasn't balanced for fun and it was frustrating to play especially with randoms and this game is similar. I've given up on it and sold it and just went back to L4D2 and had way more fun on it especially for speed running
I mean I dont get how anyone had interest in them after evolve. I refuse to consider playing it even if it was free.
@@Ay-xq7mj I let nostalgia blind me and made a good faith purchase and deeply regret it, I almost never do that anymore outside the indie scene
@@Ay-xq7mj Evolve had a lot of promise behind the idea, it is a really fun sounding idea. It seemed like it was on a good track just not quite -there- yet, and then a lot of the things that pissed people off were more so 2k's doing then anything else.
Seemed like hey maybe they could learn some lessons and make a real banger of a game from it but nah.
@@Bread-kun fully agree. Evolve did not deserve what happened to it, was a brilliant idea, that happened pre micro-transactions domination of the gaming industry. If an evolve-like game came out today, it would fare far better than it did back then
@@VivianGoat obviously you didn't watch his video then as it's far more then cherrypicking pointless visuals as you say. Mostof it has to do with gameplay specifically enemy a.i. and patching and balance and more.
if you think 5% nerf is irrelevant, over a 30 minute run, it accounts for a solid 90 seconds being mechanically added to the run
Thanks to MMOs I have come to know how much 5, 3, or even 1% can effect something, especially when adding in something else. 5% damage boost from this skill and a 1% damage boost for how many sets you wear may not seem like a lot, but it adds so much. In ESO specifically, the best way to test damage is to parse on a 24m hp dummy, this can take from 7-3minutes depending on your dps. That 6% increase lowers that number from 7 mins, to 6.5 mins, and thats only one thing. In the short term a 1% buff may not seem like a lot, but in the long term it greatly increases effectiveness
realistically that 5% nerf over a 30 minute run can end up being something more like 3 minutes depending on the situation because there will end up being things you just can't run away from anymore in plenty of games. Just because of a speed change.
Also, i don't know if you did the math to account for the acceleration timing as well. less stamina = more time accelerating later on
Yeah DBD helped me find out the value of 5%
yeah, i kinda wish he had showed what the "best" times were like after each patch.
PSA: Turtle Rock are not “the creators of Left 4 Dead”. That’s a full fledged lie. Only 7 of the original 185 staff members from the L4D and L4D2 dev teams went on to work on Back 4 Blood at Turtle Rock.
Turtle Rock also didn't work on L4D2 lol and only made about 75% of L4D1. What game did they fully develop? Evolve :)
They touched L4D1, that would look a lot better than Evolve, even tho I personally liked Evolve
not just 50+ original devs, there were 185
@@stuffums I have no clue why I said 50+, now I feel like a dumbass. I saw the Crowbcat video and thought “huh, like 50 people”. Now I feel stupid as fuck, thank you though, imma edit the comment now.
@@HipposaurusRex they contributed very very little. Valve poured most of the effort into it.
I'm not even a speed runner, I just ran speed decks because the game had infinite spawns with limited ammo. It intuitively encouraged players to move through the level efficiently instead of trying to clear the whole map. Sadly there was a clear divide in the player base as many people I encountered played the same while, while just as many others wanted to crab walk and exterminate the entire zombie population (likely in ignorance of the spawn rates) and our playstyles clashed quite often in matches.
Goes to show that back 4 blood... just doesn't work in random lobbies. Some builds synergize better than others. If you're a grenade build and a teammate with a melee build just runs up to melee everything, you can't grenade stuff without blowing up your teammate. If you're a speedrun build, you're going to outrun everyone who isn't also a speedrun build. Et cetera, so on and so forth. It's simply not built for it and no amount of fixes will change that short of trivializing the effect of cards to begin with.
If you used to play left 4 dead 2 competitively or at least seriously then you would know that the game is actually has to be run. The slower you go, the more health you will lose.
So, running as fast as you can was not intended but in the end was the strategy of the game.
How did turtle rock missed this point? They never played left 4 dead themselves?
I thought constantly moving through a level was kinda the point of these point a- point b horde games. You aren’t going to sit around in vermintide or l4d
@@erichooper2794 true, but in both those games the hordes seem manageable, I'm b4b the near endless feeling spawn basically demands movement, especially with all the forced damage you take with little to no counter play to negate it. Can't tell you how naked I felt trying to spam melee to block or keep hordes off me. Needless to say in the absence of defense I opted for evading encounters as often as I could.
This is why I bring Ammo Stash on a Tec9. The weapon functions (with any gold ammo mod) as a replacement of a primary standard level SMG with a decreased clip size. 20% reload speed isn't too terrible and can be offset with other cards, some you are likely going to be using anyway.
I like to play careful, calculating, and smart. Running off by myself is not a thing because I'm not the best at solo survival. That said, I'm willing to swap from my primary (usually an RPK or Barrett) to the Tec9 if we need to move things along as it does a good job of wasting enemies that are surrounding you or to run and gun.
Maybe I'm a bit too careful, trying to plan for a lot of eventualities, but when I play with my friends, I gotta plan for when the one idiot does run off and get jumped and downed. Then the medic. Then the dps. And here is Mom, trying her best to just keep the team from cussing each other out for not playing the way each other wants.
......sigh. At least I give everyone a free life and have a free instant revive once a round (much to Doc's bitching "I heal faster and pick up faster").
not just speed running, but the fun for me personally. every patch they nerfed a deck so now my whole melee deck has been nerfed with some cards changed entirely and speed run cards were part of my build, it was fun getting in a hordes face and having my stamina Regen instantly.
anything done to spite speedrunners/metaplayers always screws the regular player.
Bro I don't even understand the changes to adrenaline fueled. That card opened up the option to play melee on someone other than holly and now they have taken away that option (too an extent). Narrowing our options doesn't make for fun replayability in a game
Solo progression and scaled spawn were a simple fix to the people speed running in pubs. Nerfing shit in a pve game lol
@@drakecamasso113 Seriously, already quit the game after the December patch. Their method for “fixing” the meta is just nerfing the good cards. So now everything is equally as shit. My copper build was nerfed to the ground, my melee build was nerfed to the ground, my speed build was nerfed to the ground…
Good job on bleeding your player base TRS.
@@RainCloudVideos Just play a better game. Left 4 Dead/2
Deep rock galactic once added interaction countdowns. They were removed a few patches later because the community felt like it’s breaking the flow of the game.
Ghost ship games know how to make a great game. Rock and stone
rock and stone
Rock and Stone!
ROCK AND STONE!
ROCK! AND! STONE!
"We made the following changes to bring speed running more in line with the viability of other strategies and skills."
"We preformed a lobotomy on you in order to bring your thinking abilities more in line with your peers."
These patches and way turtle rock is handling the game shows that they not didn't learn from their mistakes with evolve but have compounded their problems into something worse.
No one cares about speed Runners developers are not going to cater to you guys
@@RUDY-COLEMAN im just gonna look at deltarune chapter 2
@@MahNamJeff bro thats an indie game
@@RUDY-COLEMAN I remember the halo c.e devs being happy with speedrunners
Someone hasn't seen the DOOM devs react to a speedrun or talked to their therapist in awhile huh
Turtle Rock doesn't understand what makes games fun. They only do it what they think the player wants without asking actual questions.
The playerbase DID want speed running nerfed though.... "Nightmare is too hard unless you speed run" is something that was constantly said as well as "People load into my lobby speed run and trigger every horde and leave"
Another thing that the players wanted was to make the solo experience better which goes back to people loading in and speed running making it unfun for those legitmately playing the game. Speedrunners are such a niche thing it just makes sense to cater to the actual playerbase who is paying to play the upcoming DLC with upcoming infected and see the upcoming maps
@@JozieXP "Another thing that the players wanted was to make the solo experience better which goes back to people loading in and speed running making it unfun for those legitmately playing the game."
they should add something like the option to vote to kick someone instead perhaps, i know of a zombie game made by valve in 2007 that had this feature, a game made, you know, 14 years ago...
@@DustyyBoi the same game where if you're new you're instantly kicked for not knowing there's an instakill spot.
@@JozieXP it's the community problem not game problem
@@JozieXP maybe, just maybe the best thing would have been to rebalance nightmare to me other deck build more viable or give buffs to more cards instead
Calling Back 4 Blood 'more evolved' than Left 4 Dead is true. If you mean evolved backwards.
EDIT: REFER TO PINNED COMMENT
I personally think the game had way more potential than Left 4 Dead, but everything that is "evolved" about it, isn't utilized to it's full potential. So like, I agree it went a bit backwards, but you have to admit that B4B has a lot more to offer in it's formula. A shame it wasn't taken care of for those things to matter.
Honestly I don't see it. Left 4 Dead is filled with love and care. From it's lighting, animations to it's characters. Back 4 Blood is a shallow, empty husk in comparison. Literally even if you compare the simple act of shooting a zombie between them. One is weighty and impactful with impressive detail. The other is a web blorp and randomly tossing corpses around.
Evolved in graphics and nasty monetization strategies, nothing more
@@Maxylobes not really unfortunately due to the bad a.i. and less interaction between the enemies and players compared to L4D, B4B tried to do too much and succeeded at none and any potential it had to was nerfed into the ground ruining what fun there was.
@@Maxylobes I disagree with you. They added too much bloat.
Not only did Turtle Rock make a disappointing and objectively bad game, but they're actively sabotaging themselves. Ridiculous.
I mean, what did you expect from the guys who rather kill their own game than nerf a single character/buff the other characters (the Evolve Wraith fiasco)
@@weebcraft6829 link to video on the topic? I didn't know Evolve got killed in the same way.
Wraith and monster to monster strength is not really why evolve died. Like at all.
This was a good decision. Game is much more fun now.
@@weebcraft6829 Evolved died because the decisions and microtransactions of the game.
Back in the day, the one saving grace bad developers had was that their game shipped on a cartridge or floppy or CD, so you'd buy their failure and that was it. Nowadays with everyone having internet access bad developers can KEEP adding bad stuff to their already bad game.
The problem with speedrunning new games nowadays is that both Developers and Players alike don't seem to be able to grasp that a game can be speedrun in 2 hours DOESN'T necessarily mean a game only has 2 hours of content, that's why both sides go anal whenever something gets cleared so quickly: They think it makes the game look bad and, therefore, can negatively affect sales.
Then they shouldn’t have to implement speedrun features in this game on launch day.
if thats true thats sad. i genuinely enjoy and love the speedrunning communities...like has no one heard of GDQ?
@@lumirairazbyte9697 easier said than done.
True. This, and the fact that this is a live service game, doesn’t bode well with a “2 hours of content” that you can speedrun with.
If a consumer can't tell the difference between speed running times and content times then they likely lick windows
You’d think the obvious solution to fix a line player speeding ahead of his team is to have all/most the zombies spawn around that guy to overwhelm him, killing or slowing him down until his buddies catch up…
Would fix the “selfish” speedrunning problem while also letting it work in solo games, given we assume the game cranks spawn numbers up for larger player games.
The thing about the speed running build being used with randoms came to be because of the melee nerf. With the nerf to melee the best way to beat nightmare was to use the speed run build and just run past most of the game.
So while the apeedrunning community didnt encourage people to use the build with random, the devs indirectly did.
Amazing that the best way to play the game is to avoid as much of it as you can
@@samgraffen9212 i mean, technically that's also a good way to survive in real life
Not that I'm encouraging any of this or saying that it's a good thing.
A good way to survive, sure, but to live? What is life without problems to solve?
Maybe I shouldn't use the word "best", but instead "enjoyable" or even "doable", at least on nightmare. Speedrunning is a small part of any player base, and while its great that they find fun in it, it is very rarely the meta, as a large portion of people just aren't interested in it or find it fun.
The hardest difficulty in any game is usually played by more hardcore people looking for a challenge, the challenge itself being a fun and rewarding experience, but when that challenge is so tedious, poorly balanced, or otherwise incompletable by normal means that the "hardcore group" is effectively forced to play as "speedrunners", then there is a big problem, as it practically forces people to play the game in ways they don't want to.
All in all, the developers come off very similar to a bad Dungeons & Dragons game master. The railroading sort that tries to "win" the game against their players. Who puts anti-magic fields everywhere rather than having the wizard be able to get clever, who houserules away all the best comboes or whose monsters mysteriously never deal fire damage anymore after you gain fire resistance.
That all sounds really personal lol
@@X19Virus Actually no, never experienced it myself, but I can get the gist of it through reading about others' experiences.
Man, playing against your players is never fun. Roleplaying should be about telling a story and giving players oppourtunities to hop in, not punishing them for giving a flip about the world you created.
If somebody has fire resistance, stick a ring of fire around the legendary sword so they can coolguy run through the flames.
@@X19Virus it sounds personal because stories like it are sadly really common. Bad DMs and Bad Players alike taking a cooperative game like D&D and turning it into a player vs player mentally. Game Developers after their contractual release should put effort in fostering a wide community of players and playstyle rather than just nerfing stuff in the ground like with B4B. They seem to just really hate speedrun builds and want to try and make them as unviable as possible while losing sight of how it affects their wider game.
Look if at least 2 players don't die every session they have too much fun and I can't have a power trip. How difficult is that to understand?
If people wanna play melee L4D2 in a modern game, I highly recommend Vermintide 2. As a former L4D2 player, that game has been AMAZING to play, and has made some of my favourite game moments of all time. Love that game.
BY THE HAMMER AND THE EMPIRE I ABJURE THEEEEEEEE
Bardin: Come on, hit me harder hahaha!
Kruber: Ha! This is were we stand, and they fall!
Saltzpyre: Repent! REPENT! *REPENT!*
Sienna: Fulminate Fulminate!
Kerillian: Lumber Foots!
How much cost that game was cuz i really want to try that game
@@luwmnopick4787 if it's Vermintide 2 you are asking, I bought mine full price which was either 60 or 40 bucks, but if you're lucky, you could buy it for 30 dollars
@@starhornboy6495 damn hmmm....maybe i could try to buy it if it were that game gave me worth and satisfying
Honestly, developers like Turtle Rock (and I'll extend this out to BHVR, too, as this reminds me of their choices) are completely inept as to what their communities actually want and don't know what actually ruins their game for their communities. All Turtle Rock did was create substantial trust issues while also making their (already kind of meh) game worse as a result.
This mentality from developers is what makes these games unappealing even at a casual level. It's not even something that primarily affects their online play. It's something that affects their offline play, so it boggles the mind even more why they would change it.
I don't know which is worse. Turtle Rock immediately nerfing builds that were fun and didn't hurt the online experience; or BHVR taking *years* to nerf both memento moris and the hatch/keys, which were overwhelmingly considered cheap insta-wins.
oh don't remind me BHVR. christ, they're the worst game developers ever existed in this world. constantly shitting on their game for at least 2 years
As someone who has never seen B4B's deck mechanics until now, it's really nice that they let you play as a meth head with the ability to sense nearby copper.
The gypsy build
me as a kid: ICE CREAM TRUCK!
me as an adult: COPPER WIRING!
And a methhead with the power to sense meds through walls and run like sonic
The fixed an isssue bs is what incompetent devs and publishers like to pull when they just dislike some of the techs and skills are used by the higher end players to in MMOs or speedrunners. Unfortunately this card they pull is nigh invincible because all they have to say is that it was not the intended way.
Truly unfortunate that a community with some of the most devotion to a game, the speedrunners get the brunt end of this kind of treatment.
When a glitch/speed run gets noticed and/or retweeted by someone on the dev team it either means fully embraced or *scorched earth nerfs*
With no inbetween
The explanation behind nerfing the speed cards seems to me like the worst part of all of this, instead of just explaining in a normal way why they dont like these cards, they instead put selfish people playing in co-op in a selfish way as a reason, which makes literally no freaking sense in a co-op game, what's next? Nerfing grenades because there are people who sabotage their teams by throwing them at their teammates instead of the enemies?
Also, I really dislike when devs nerf stuff so it becomes in line with other stuff instead of just buffing other stuff to be in line, because nerfs will drive away waaay more players than if they just buffed some cards and people would like it.
Honestly, the card mechanic was a bad idea to begin with. Being able to innately be faster makes it impossible to have speedrunning and random lobbies both work at the same time. Either people can speedrun (and then inevitably outrun the rest of their team who don't get to play the game proper), or they're slowed so the rest of the team can keep up (which makes speedrunning builds useless).
By contrast, Left 4 Dead doesn't have that. You can still speedrun it pretty well, but if everyone else runs after you they can still keep up in theory.
At this point, if certain decks aren't in line with other... why not just remove them? Make it even more similar to L4D!
Core-A-Gaming (mostly a fighting game youtube channel) has a good video on this.
Players feel nerfs are about three times worse than an equivalent buff.
Honestly, they should be looking at how to make other kits stronger, not a few of them weaker. And synergistic builds will always be stronger than a cobbled together one.
wasnt there some famous MMO that at first added a XP reducing mechanic where overtime, you gained less and less XP because they wanted their players to not spend excessive hours on the game. And after backlash, they revrsed it, so if you dont play you get a catch up XP multiplyer. Where if you didnt play for several days, you could get as much XP in short time, as consistant players long time. It was the identical thing, just reversed and came off as a positive.
@@WyvernWolfe Pretty sure a lot of games do similar stuff to this, I remember one event in League of Legends had something similar, ended up with players pissed off for wasting their time instead of letting them enjoy the game how they wanted
The only thing that comes to mind when they say that "Speed running decks needed to be brought back in line with the viability of other decks" is:
What about all the Mutated Ridden, whose sole purpose is to disable and kill a Cleaner? Do you somehow not trust your own game mechanics? Are you worried someone running a speed-efficient deck (not even a speed runner, just someone who wants to go fast) will be aware enough to kill every single Special on their own? Games like this punish players who run ahead alone by having disablers catch them, it's a core game mechanic to encourage teamwork.
Player builds speed deck in public lobby; Runs ahead, gets got by special infected. Screams at his team because they're not also using speed decks and were left in the dust. Everyone has a bad time.
Player builds speed deck in public lobby and isn't a toxic shit; doesn't really get to do the thing his deck is built for because if he gets too far ahead, then his team won't be able to help him if he gets got. Speed-deck player has a bad time.
Thinking about it, it sounds like those cards were a mistake altogether.
As someone who heavily roleplays vanilla gaming (even to the point of poor performance). I find satisfaction watching speedrunners do stuff I can't comprehend, like a kid watching a magician's show.
So developers actively prohibiting just feels dumb and unsatisfying.
Its even worse because it fucks over the normal players too. anyone that used some of the agility cards now is weaker overall.
If you try to spite speedrunners or/and metaplayers, the overall player base gets fucked as well because the nerfs come to them as well.
Yeh i personally am fucked because i rely on the agility cards 😂
@@punished7030 even in the presence of "speedrun" techniques and exploits that can be done easily. I'd still play vanilla.
@@punished7030 Roleplaying is when you try to get into the mindset that you're actually there, embodying the character, and play accordingly. Taken very literally, this means refusing to use optimal strategies in cases where your character wouldn't know about them, even if you do. Doing things "because the character would" not because you think it'll give you some advantage. You can role play in any game where there's any degree of realism. But you have a Skyrim username, so it makes sense you wouldn't be familiar with the concept.*
*This isn't intended as an insult to you. Skyrim is just very low on RP compared to previous Elder Scrolls titles and this was a good opportunity to make a snarky joke about it.
nothing wrong with playing in a cinematic and immersive way, devs sometimes dont understand that playstyle is a variable they cant control because alot of players will wanna play optimally, casually, or immerse themselves in the experience
pigeonholing and nerfing playstyles in a multiplayer game will never be a good idea unless its objectively too strong that it becomes the end all be all playstyle
Man Crobcat's video shed light on how bad B4B was quality wise. This ideo however explains why so many stopped playing B4B in favor of going back to Left 4 Dead 1 and 2. Devs nerfed the cards the only unique thing about B4B to the point where they killed their own game which already had a bad reputation.
i mean b4b achieved a raise in player count in l4d2 lol so thats something they managed XD. IMO it was always going to be a disaster because they were trying to release a spiritual successor to a valve game. They tried too hard to be better, but ultimately lots of the things added detracted from the game. I mean I love playing l4d because I can boot it up, and have a finale where I try to signal a helicopter using a rock concert by acdc and when I win the team america theme song starts playing XD
Honestly, if the accelerated movement was there from the beginning, it could be interesting for speedrunning as you have to find ways to conserve your speed, much like p-speed management in SM3. But having it introduced in a later patch is definitely not fun
This really could just be fixed if you could patch select for solo campaigns.
I feel so bad when Speedrunners are screwed over, because they are some of the most dedicated players out there. As said, years down the line it’s the speedrunners still making new content around the game. The actual dedication and skill it takes to do some of this shit is way beyond what the normal person whole do.
Watching a speed run can bruise the ego for a developer, as all of their mistakes and inadequacies are laid out in front of them. Some choose to embrace it and invite their unexpected fans with open arms, and others choose to fight back and throw everything they were cultivating to make the game "perfect."
Theres not a whole lot of skill involved exploiting bugs and glitches in a game if they do it without either then yes that's skill and something that only elites can accomplish
Speed runners aren't really worth ruining the game for literally everyone else that's greedy and absolutely disgusting to think yeah maybe when they stop making updates and patches they can downpatch the game for speed runners but let normal casuals have fun too
And people wonder why fans resort to review bombing.
Oh wait, the answer's always been obvious, it's because the developers don't listen to the people who know best, aka, the people who will always rack more hours in their game than the developers.
Sometimes I feel like game dev teams should literally have staff, long-term staff, whose job is to play the hell out of the game theyre working on and then to help detect post-launch problems. Realistically I'd argue that the entire team should play the game for a solid month after release, that way they can get a personal grasp on the problems and can more effectively start working on fixes even while playing it.
@XxTreXXockxX or maybe the testers they get are just casual players/streamers so they could potentially market the game. These casual players/streamers do give feedback and the devs will fix them, but they're not like those speedrunners who intends to break the game as much as possible to be used as an advantage.
I dropped the game as soon as the melee patch n few others dropped. I've never personally understood the idea or thought process of developers when it comes to nerfing something especially in regards to what's practically a solo game with your buds. I was legit having fun in the game, but apparently it's not the way to developers want you to have fun.
15:35 hey that's me, hypers
I'd like to say, as a former mod/speedrunner of B4B, that I paid NINETY dollars AUD - FULL PRICE - for the game at the recommendation of a friend, specifically TO speedrun it. I have never played it casually. I tried to run the 1.1 patch, and just could not do it.
After all the time and money I put into that game (90 hours in 3-4 weeks, nothing to scoff at) I had no choice but to quit because of how unfun and helpless it felt. We all watched as that board, which had peaked at over 100 active players, quickly drop from the top down to about 34 where it is now.
Countless discussions with the mods and other runners all went down the drain. There was nothing we could really do to save it other than just take what they gave us.
This is a really good video maxy - thanks for making it!
Its funny how B4B devs call themselves the creators of L4D
And yet they've done everything opposite of what Valve and L4D did.
L4D has such a cool speedrunning scene and then here Turtlerock just tries their best to screw speedrunners/players over by limiting the game so much.
I'm not a speed runner but i get the frustration. You are 100% right. Turtle Rock is none to release games and nerf quickly when players don't play the game the way they want it. Evolve was another example. It didn't work and this won't either at this rate. Pity Valve is not over them lol.
With this video, and CrowBcat, I'm convinced the developers never had players first in mind.
Like how the fuck can to justify nerfing builds on a PvE game? This isn't like Smash or other games where a single character dominants tournaments, this is meant to be a multiplayer experience hoard shooter.
I said it once, and Ill say it again.
B4B asked 'how can we make a L4D killer'
L4D asked 'how can we make a fun game'
Heard they sold to tencent on DEC 17th
@@dorkydragon5055 The nerfs were released before tencent bought them
the majority of people that worked on the left 4 dead games where valve employees.
so you shouldn't be surprised why they where so fun.
B4B shoots its own foot, and its chest, and its own head.
@@alvianekka80 then shoots its own casket
Turtle rock, a company who killed their asymetric pvp game by releasing paid overpowered player options is concerned abt balance and player inequality
The main takeaway I am receiving from this is that the issue was not "Players are utilizing speedrunning decks in average PUG lobbies and harming the player experience," but rather "Speedrunners have found out the best way to play our game that we did not test as thoroughly as we should have, and we didn't like being exposed like that." I saw it as lead developers, marketing, and executives of Turtle Rock seeing speedrunning as a genuinely negative source of exposure for the lack of effort that they put into proper gameplay testing.
Speedrunning, in my eyes, has never been about finding the most fun way, and the best way of playing. Speedrunning has been the most efficient way of playing, with increasing amount of nuance, skill, and increasingly risky exploitation to get the best time. The fact that speedrunners inadvertedly found out that the seemingly best way to play Back 4 Blood was by not playing it and going through it as fast as possible demolishes the Card Build system entirely, and the path of least resistance was not to rebalance game difficulty and buff underperforming Cards and Builds but to punish the objective Best Way to play, which was showcasing the fundamentally flawed/clashing systems of Card Building and actual gameplay of the game that many people have discovered actually isn't what it should be.
The last part of your comment pretty much nails it on the head. I had trouble comprehending at first because it is one hell of a run-on sentence, but you definitely understand the point.
I don't even understand how "Players are utilizing speedrunning decks in an average PUG lobby and harming the player experience" would even WORK!
If you're in public random 4-player lobby and BLJ your way 4 parallel dimensions ahead of your team into the safety house... Then what!? IIRC, the level doesn't end until *all* cleaners are in the safe house. So now they're stuck with 1 less cleaner to work with through the level and your stuck *waiting* for the cleaner team to make it to you ruining your Speedrun!!
Now you might make the argument that the other 3 cleaners could just suicide and cheese the level sure, fine. But what would that accomplish, supply points achievements,level progression? Nerf that instead then!
The real issue is I think they saw the speedrunning news as negative exposure and can you blame them? (Yes, but I'll play a little bit of devil's advocate.)
B4B is forever overshadowed by it's successful cousin L4D2. To the point where a lot of gamers don't want to even sniff it because "lol not l4d2 why bother." And will take ANY thing that could be negative as negative.
So I'm pretty sure a lot of ignorant comments were like " lol a $60 AAA Game ripoff that can be beating in 1 hr and 45 minutes? Haha hard pass! Lololol Gaben4ever" without even knowing you could probably do something similar for l4d2.(but That's muh classic beauty and it's so old doesn't count.)
So what do they do? NERF!!
Is it right? Nah still don't think so. But that's what at least comes to mind when trying to rationalize their decision.
@@Videokirbyo There in lies a very, very small problem with their marketing:
They say, (not directly quoting, of course): "We're the dev team that made L4D2, and this is the game that's meant to be compared to it and we made that game what it is."
This is also despite the fact of there are... what, 4-7 devs from the original 60+ on the L4D2 team, and their previously horribly balanced title Evolve (Which I wish they did well. The concept is really fucking good.)
People have a pretty good reason to compare it to L4D2 and not give it a shot, simply because the devs WANT to be compared to L4D2.
@@Videokirbyo you can bhop to the end of the level in L4D too.
Only difference is that hunters, jockeys, smokers and chargers are actual well designed threats and no bullet sponges. Unless you are extremely skilled, you will not survive to the end without your teammates.
Every time I think about B4B I just say "man, what a waste of time".
Imagine if the game learned anything from L4D.
Beat the game on Veteran and I’ll probably never touch it again lol. The developers claim that they patched/toned down the corruption cards but it honestly feels like they doubled down on them. It’s not a fun experience.
I want to preface by saying that I don't like the speed running nerfs or nerfs to the cards in general.
I feel they nerfed the speed running cards because people were taking these builds into quickplay lobbies and ruining the experience of the other 3 players who were trying to play more 'normalized' builds that were more focused around looting, fighting, and pushing as a unit.
I remember reading a lot of complaints saying that they 'ruined' quickplay because of these actions, and I think TRS made a knee jerk reaction to nerf speed running cards. The issue is that because the balance of the game was all over the place, and people love to suck the fun out of a game by min/maxing for supply points, they chose speed running decks into random lobbies because you couldn't farm them in solo lobbies yourself.
TRS has a bunch of systems working against each other and they only facilitate this issue more and more by NERFING things and incorrectly choosing to balance improperly. One example is how the entire first act and half the second act are some of the easiest things to push through on recruit (before the December patch), but it took you half the game to get to what you expected the whole of the game's difficulty to be on the first setting.
Another issue is how veteran and nightmare had the wonkiest balancing I've ever seen. Because of what I mentioned earlier, pushing quickplay past act 2 was insanely hard on veteran because you had to rely on RNG and whether or not your teammates were running the right builds for your team to work to make up for either your own or your teammates shortcomings, whether it be from gunplay or decision making.
Instead of BUFFING cards in other, weaker areas, like making gun builds STRONGER, they chose to nerf the most popular builds and say, "this was to bring the game into line" while then nerfing the difficulties the player base was already trying to get accustomed to.
From my anecdotal experience, I had to push through all of recruit to finally start enjoying the game. The game quickly ruins any chance at being fun by removing the ability to keep your cards through the entire run of Act 1, 2, and 3. I understand that it is for balancing, but the true meat and potatoes of this game is when you finish your deck and you're running around having a blast on whatever difficulty and enjoying your power climb. You simply don't get enough time to enjoy that, that or the game was simply too easy on your first showing, even without the cards.
TL:DR - You really should read, but basically, TRS chooses to balance in ways that goes against what makes the game fun; people enjoy the card building mechanic and the climb to gathering and seeing their efforts rewarded. Only, they choose to take that power away, both by choosing to only let you enjoy one or two levels at your max power or nerfing the more popular builds that were taken into quickplay which led to the consequences of these decks having power taken away. The choice to balance the 3 acts in the way that they did made the game's difficulty spike feel more like a straight jump to a 1000000000m cliff side rather than a gradual climb to difficulty.
The balancing team at TRS needs some balancing, ironically.
almost like it's an issue with the other systems not punishing players acting solo properly
The lack of a vote to kick seriously harmed this game in the long run.
I will never understand why some developers want to control how their players enjoy the game
Probably for the same reason those DMs in D&D stories sideline the players in favor of their NPC main character, because they had a wonderful story/experience in mind and didn't want the actual players doing something that deviated from their glorious vision.
Developers killed Back 4 Blood, period.
Ok so I hadn't seen the design of the saferoom doors until just now and I audibly laughed at how similar they are to L4D. Also Great video, you're good at explaining things
The few people running ahead and abandoning the team in public lobbies ruined speed builds for everyone else...
I did find a way to mesh it with other decks, I play with 3 other friends and it's amazing to run speed when playing as a scout/frontliner for the team. I can herd normal ridden and funnel hordes for everyone else, and quickly fall back into the team if it gets overwhelming or specials show up. It's a very fun and hectic playstyle, and perfectly viable on Nightmare as well. High risk and high reward.
Tbh the main culprit in the whole thing is Turtle Rock themselves since the AI director can't handle spawns when the group is separated 3-1, so instead of fixing the director and figuring things out from a gameplay perspective, they just threw a wrench on it.
back when it came out i was playing with my friends almost every single game because it felt fun, we had a full comp of healer, back line firing squad and myself as a melee front line, we were progressing trough the campaign, then the first update came out and absolutely destroyed my build and with it my enthusiasm of the game.
As you said since the first update i felt that the devs were trying to control how people played and that alone for me was enough to drop the game completely and worst of all was reading the comments of people defending the nerfs as something good
Reminds me of that one time, devs from Doom Eternal placed an invisible wall to an area so that you can't just sequence break to that area until you do the intended path. And lots of eggregious changes to some levels that deter non-OoB skips.
At least you can still play the older patches where that isn’t an issue
At-least in that case they didn’t nerf the game’s core movement mechanics and mobility options.
@@marakrofitcac3425 That would be ridiculous for Doom
We have noticed that melee players were running ahead, into the zombies and away from the other players firing at range. To make melee builds fall more in line with the others we have universally reduced their viability as melee builds and also reduced melee damage across the board.
This makes exactly as much sense as their statement about go fast builds. You stop players from running away and ahead by making it risky, which you already have. You make it so running far away from your team risks losing the game and you have a system where you can report griefers who just afk or refuse to do team play by shadow banning them or real ass banning them. Making it so everyone is sluggish and the same speed won't even stop players from running ahead. They could literally remove all speed boosts, make everyone exactly the same speed and have zero speed reducing things in the game and some people would still dash way tf ahead and be hella out of position and cause you to lose.
This is insane and before I was waiting for it to fall in price, maybe a sale, to pick it up but now im just straight up not going to. That is boneheaded design and a surefire sign that they're going to nerf everything fun until you cannot possibly have fun anymore.
I mean a much better experience would be to buy l4d2 and boot that up and have fun. Plus you can install mods to make it as goofy or more challenging as you want. Nothing better than signalling rescue with an acdc concert and when finally getting rescued team america theme starts playing XD
Devs removing fun tech, that isn't game breaking, speed related or not, is always the worst.
Even though this covers the speedrunning aspect of it, I can now see why I saw so many of my friends playing this game when it first came out in the first month down to no one by about mid November. The nerfs didn't just hurt speedrunning, it seems like it hurt the casual experience as well, which is a damn shame considering how many people were super into this.
Or maybe they finished the 4 hour campaign and are bored with it
"We nerfed speed running to be more viable alongside other builds"
"We messed up The art major's art so it'd be more similar to the athlete's"
"Turtle Rock doesn't want players playing the game the way players want to play it, but rather the way Turtle Rock wants them to play it."
This sounds just like how Riot handles League of Legends, or how Blizzard handles WoW and Overwatch. If players ever try to do anything new or unique or, god forbid, actually _fun_ , the devs just immediately ban those people and change / nerf things so nobody else can ever do that. Even when it's something that doesn't affect other players negatively in any way, or even sometimes actually benefits teams and teammates.
"Play our way or go fuck yourself" seems to be those dev's motto, and sounds like that's also Turtle Rock's.
The problem with “speed running builds’ viability” is not really directed at people who solo speed run, although of course they are also affected by the change; the thing is, specially when playing nightmare with randoms, one of the most viable things to do was have someone with a speed tun deck run ahead and lure everything and finish the level, which is actually really annoying if you are just joining a game and you don’t even get to really play because one guy is using Evangelo and running in front if everything. I feel for the speed running community, they were colateral damage on that change. If nightmare was actually properly balanced maybe people wouldn’t use those kind of strategies, but well, here we are…
Yeah if only they did what every other horde game does and spawn specials on players far away from others.
@@martmine4618 They do spawn the specials. The problem is that high movements speeds break their ability to track and interact with the player. Furthermore if you had one person run through fast enough, it would actually cause the game to de-spawn a lot of the enemies.
Yeah. It's what always ends up happening "players hate our hardest difficulty because nothing is viable. it must be balanced properly then! *shrug* " followed by players figuring out some 'meta builds' and devs instantly going "what?! players figured out how to make viable builds for our hardest difficulty?! we must stop this!"
I mean this kind of sounds a bit like payday 2 in that regard. Every time a new build would show up for payday 2, it'd be tested on the hardest difficulty, if it was shown to be capable of surviving for any time at all, devs would nerf it to the point that people were forced back into the same pattern they had been using for the past three years on it. Which usually involved builds which existed since the game started, are barely viable if you have a proper team who are all excessively practiced on not just the difficulty but the map choice as well, as well as needing to basically scrape by and wait for perfect opportunities which might take an hour to reach, on a mission that even one difficulty lower usually would only need a few minutes to complete.
This reached a point where even the people who play nearly exclusively on the hardest difficulty started complaining, because out of a roster of like two hundred guns, only FOUR were viable, so Overkill was forced to buff it all, which led to making the mode actually too easy, which led to them, instead of trying to reel it back just a little bit, just straight up buffing the difficulty until it was once more in the same state.
Sadly it sounds like the same is going to be true for back 4 blood, which also means there's going to be tons of animosity between communities within the game itself, as one side will blame another side who is blaming another side, all the while the real solution would be to simply take a little time and slowly incriment buffs and nerfs, get some feedback and decide if those changes should stay or not.
@@antirevomag834 yeah, I agree. I actually completed the campaign in Recruit, then jumped to Veteran and found it super fun. After I finished Veteran, I tried Nightmare and out of like 20 runs there was only 1 where there wasn’t an Evangelo speed running everything and then everyone else just looting, which is REALLY boring as you are basically skipping the game itself. PS: on that 1 run where no one was speed running we got wrecked, and it was a pretty solid team, so yeah, we should all blame the devs, players are always going to take the path of least resistance so the devs should plan and balance accordingly to avoid these situations.
i feel like those people arent really 'speed running', they're just using the most effective method
if only the game buffed so others were as good, then there wouldnt be any need for people to just go for one singular 'rush ahead' build
You know how to solve this problem?
Add some Free DLC "Speedrun mode" where you only use un-nerf speed cards and bring back not-so-bunny hop "issue"
well it's not the speedrun of main game anymore
I never really showed interest in this game but you did an awesome job at explaining this. I'm sorry this happened to all of you
this update also hurts normal players not just speedrunners. Devs should never update the game just cuz speedrunners.
I feel sad for those who paid $100 for the ultimate edition
Shit I paid $60 and regret the fuck out of it.
I got it on game pass and I regret installing it
Imagine paying a cent for the shit turtle rock spews out
some probably got jebaited when the trailer comes out with the l4d nostalgia, also they probably expect Turtle Rock to listen to the players and adjust the game and not just leave the prob like it is.
After months and there's still no sound cue, no way to distinguish the special infected from its variants, bots still dum and no mod support
Turtle Rock tried to please everyone, but ends up pleased no one. Ironic, isn't it?
My favorite part of this video is simply that u used timesplitters 2 music. I feel like its rare to find someone who actually played that masterpiece, thats a special game of my child hood and this video is now special to me
All the Timesplitters games have bangin’ soundtracks
I wish I had chance to play ts2 I did get to enjoy future perfect lol, SO MANY GOOD TRACKS CHARACTERS AND MINIGAMES.
Even though this video was very focused on a few specific instances, it really makes me aware of the "patch style" for this game. To me, the major incentive for this game over L4D2 (apart from being new content) is the idea that the card system was going to allow for certain builds and synergies to emerge that really make the more casual player think "oh wow, this is good, I wonder if I could take this up to the highest/higher difficulty level with this build?".
But Turtle Rock's philosophy seems to instead be to nerfing builds to mediocrity, which is completely against what I saw as the real positive to playing this game.
So sad and bewildering to see developers kill the small communities their games cultivate
Meanwhile, games like Metroid actively reward players for sequence breaking/speedrunning. Seeing someone speedrun without any glitches/exploits in particular will always be impressive to me. It shows the player's skill and memorization of the game. Here it just seems like TRS have a grudge against their player base or something. Balancing a game is one thing, but nerfing to the ground several abilities that players enjoyed using is not the way to balance a PVE GAME!
I don’t like the idea of nerf or buff the cards
But the horde spawn still not balance is the biggest problem!!!
Yeah I'll be honest, I was one of the few people who actually really liked this game, and these nerfs completely killed it for me. The removal of stam hopping (something I called sprint hopping up until now because I wasn't aware of the speedrunning community) was the final nail in the coffin. Turtle Rock has proven time and time again that they do not care for, nor do they listen to the community (something that was obvious for alpha and beta testers). They only thing they care about is being an oppressive nanny that dictates your actions and how you play. As one of the very few people who actually really liked Evolve as well, I am fucking done with these devs. Let the game die, and let them be forgotten.
You think turtle rock would learn after evolve was DOA
Let's not forget that, inherent within speedrunning, is the desirability of skipping as much of the content as possible in order to reach the end state faster.
This approach is an existential threat to a cooperative PvE game, so while there is a definite need to keep speedrunners from ruining the experience for casuals, there's also much better ways of doing it that don't involve kneecapping an entire devoted player base.
Except for the fact that Speedrunners probably spend the most time out of any exploring every nook and cranny of every map trying to find new strategies, and spend more time than any other players playing the game, practicing their strategies.
Turtle Rock punished Speedrunners, when really what they should have been punishing was online co-op griefers.
@@kabusohikaru6187 Almost like they should've designed their game to inherently discourage anti-cooperative play like running off on your own. It amazes me that these developers claim B4B to be a spiritual successor to L4D when it's obvious they've not even listened to the developer commentary of L4D where Valve developers literally talk about some of the ideas implemented in B4B as something they considered but ended up changing because they had too many issues... Issues you can see first hand in B4B.
fun fact; something very similar to this stam hopping mechanic has been possible in cod since at least cod4 and i always liked using it to get around a bit faster. it made the multiplayer game a lot more fun, to have some skill based movement techniques, compared to for example csgo where bunnyhopping is very luckbased and all you can do besides that is hold W with your knife out.
Man, you really sold me on this game as a single player experience in the first eight minutes lol. I honestly might have bought it just for the speed game, even with the multiplayer not appealing to me anymore. Shame the devs shot this play style in the head.
This reminds me of Outlast 2 where the devs put in a feature that kills you if you skip checkpoints.
I don't remember the exact story behind why it was put in, but I think a playtester or dev was testing the game, accidentially skipped a checkpoint, and got softlocked, so they put in the checkpoint kill as a failsafe.
It took a bunch of a community work to create a mod that removes that checkpoint kill in order to make the speedrun more interesting.
That's at least an understandable fix, though. Accidentally becoming softlocked because you took an unintentional path and missed a few event flags in a game where the last time you may have manually saved was a few hours ago is something that could actively harm the casual player experience. MercurySteam did the same for Dread when it was discovered speedrunners found a way to utilize a glitch to get into the background of areas, effectively making them immortal-- but something that your average player could run in to and destroy their experience.
I'm not even a speedrunner and i find this immensely dissappointing. Friendship ended with turtlerock. New friendship started with maxylobes.
Turtle rock: huh a new speed running community has popped up using unique and entertaining techniques to go through the game fast spending countless hours playing the game and encouraging others to play and buy the game
kill them all
I will never understand why a developer would try SO hard to force players to play their *PVE* game in a specific way if it's not harming the community. I never played B4B, but I don't think these speed cards hurt lobbies anymore than some random deciding to run off without using speed cards. So what is the harm in leaving it alone, especially considering it's JUST movement speed and not a build that makes you do 100x more pistol damage or something. I think players should have the freedom to enjoy games in ways the developers didn't initially intend as long as it doesn't ruin the fun for others. I don't understand why some devs hate speedrunners... It's someone having fun with the game, and it's not like anyone is telling THEM how to have fun.
This game was so frustrating bro. I'm sorry they ruined it for themselves.
No speedrun community
No modding community
Probably barely any L4D fans left
This company really doesn’t want their game to succeed do they?
• "Fixed an issue where falling did not consume stamina."
Love the video Maxy, stam hopping was the last straw for me, there was literally no reason to do this other than hurt speed running, I have now stopped speed running the game and have pretty much stopped playing all together.
This is the same bs attitude that removed points from battlefield, we can’t let the players be competitive because that’s “toxic” so we’ll keep stripping away options until the game is no fun.
Devs need to understand it's possible to compromise without ruining the experience for everyone. When Rift Apart came out there was a glitch that was affecting people and got patched, but since speedruns used it, Insomniac introduced it in a way where you can still perform the glitch if you want but doesn't affect casual players.
Punishing players for playing your game in a particular way its weird imo, games are about joy, why take that way from certain people.
Turtlerock is on track to kill another one of their games for no reason whatsoever. Good ol' turtlerock.
I love how you used timesplitters music for the background. It's the best non copyright videogame OST for me. so retro! also funny because the timesplitters series was very speedrun oriented.
Thank you I knew I heard the bgm somewhere before and this answers that
The speedrun was doomed to die the moment it was decided to keep the leaderboard on current patch with a live-service game such as this. Yeah you were dealt a bad hand by the devs, but you still shot yourselves in the foot with that.
Edit: I looked at the leaderboard and it seems that 1.0 runs are being accepted once more, so props for reverting that decision if that is the case.
That acceleration change basically made your stamina bar smaller and made movement less efficient.
imagine if they removed bunny hopping way back when it was first born in Quake and calling it an issue
How many times has Valve nerfed laser sighted AK because it was a super good special killer or a rival to snipers?
the 7 B4B devs that were involved in developing L4D be like "game design is my passion" *makes B4B*
I don’t even think they’re bad devs, but they’re just way in over their heads to be able to properly take care of their game. Much like Evolve. This video is just a good example of that, by telling the story of how they betrayed our community (the official B4B speedrun community/discord)
0:20 I appreciate the use of Nico's theme/van theme from DMC5. Such an underrated, groovy song.
Man that Timesplitters ost in the background really brings me back
I already suck at ego shooters, mostly I really just enjoy the movement. The movement "fixes" they did i.e. acceleration and deceleration would piss me off so badly, I'd just toss the game into the bin.
What the fuck is an ego shooter?