Maven's Mormon Story - Pt. 1 | Ep. 1596
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- čas přidán 13. 05. 2024
- Raised in a devout LDS home, "Maven" internalized teachings on divine gender roles and priesthood authority. Though recognizing inequality, she accepted exclusion as part of God’s plan. At church schools, the strict dating norms felt stifling and patriarchal. Understanding her divine worth as contingent on a future partner, Maven lamented what she felt was lesser love from God.
Serving a mission expanded her worldview through profound spiritual experiences. Connecting deeply with investigators and other sisters fostered an independent, confident faith centered on Christ. But returning home, expectations to marry quickly resumed, and with them, that message of being less-than without a husband. Still single, Maven grappled with her place in a church that couldn’t seem to value what she offered on her own.
Part 2: • Becoming "Maven" - Pt....
Show Notes:
Mormonism live: mormonismlive.org/
D&C Reference about Spirits: D&C 129:4-8
Emma Pt. 2 - Philippines Mission Episode: mormonstories.org/podcast/mor...
Mormon Stories Podcast of Jennifer and Steph: mormonstories.org/podcast/lov...
Chapters
00:00:00 Introduction
00:05:00 Growing up and family
00:15:00 Equality
00:25:28 Priesthood
00:40:28 Different shades of Mormon
00:51:30 Being the big sister
00:59:54 Motherhood instead of College narrative
01:11:15 Future is plan B
01:22:10 The red dress
01:34:28 Waiting for a missionary
01:45:51 Snow College
01:57:40 Mormon dating standard
02:09:10 The Bath House
02:24:12 Sex education in college
02:34:44 I work program
02:46:12 21 and not married and the stereotype
02:58:20 The temple and covering women’s faces
03:16:00 Accepting that God will never love me as much as a man
03:25:00 Mission
03:44:46 Being there for a family on her mission
03:57:05 Testimony and Jesus as she leaves her mission
___________________
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Maven is just an unspeakably wholesome person.
And so genuine in telling her story. It really is a gift to the community when these experiences are shared. It can't be easy... but its a great act of service to the rest of us.
And kudos to the MSP team for building a platform that allows these stories out into the world to do their good work.
Looking forward to the other parts when they release.
Agreed. Sharing stories is the strength of the MSP platform and the REAL reason the Church hates it so much. Because it works.
It brings awareness of the harm and toxicity caused by doctrines and culture, it brings to light so many of the doctrinal and historical issues it tries to hide, it helps those who have been harmed or who start questioning the things that don't add up to know they aren't alone or crazy or sinful for being troubled by gaps of logic or empathy, and WORST of all, it shows apostates can be moral, happy, and fulfilled outside of the "covenant path," often more so than they ever could while on it.
Instead of the pablum and platitudes proffered at the General Conferences, stories such as Maven's should be required of all the apostlesat the very minimum, and by the audience in attendance and viewing worldwide to really get an understanding of just how toxic their high demand religion is.
She really is an incredible gift to this community!
💯
@@amberlinton7919 ❤
Thank you SO SO much for featuring Maven!! As an asexual single adult exmo of the Oregon Trail generation I feel represented in a way I've been needing lately! I can relate to so much of her story so far, even with our different experiences! Thank you Maven for sharing and being vulnerable. Your voice is needed in this space and has been so valuable to me to hear!
I'm so glad it resonates so much with you! I think the reason MSP can keep going so long with so many new interviews is because there's so many different kinds of people and kinds of experiences in the Church. I think there will always be new perspectives to learn from
Is it possible to slow down audio?
@@sprucelane1271 Lower right screen, the settings gear, you'll see an option to adjust the speed. If you need to slow it way down you might need to mute the audio and follow along (at slow speed) with the subtitles.
Maven!!! Thank you for putting in words the invisibility and shame that women go through in the temple ceremony. I had to rewind and shed some tears a few times. “Faceless white blobs” is the perfect description. The pain is still there. Thank you for articulating and sharing this experience.
That was really powerful.
Okay, I can't even DEAL with the part about about hopes and plans never being too solid in case you're "redirected." Especially as a woman, this has been incredibly damaging. 😭 Biggest wound Mormonism gave me. Thank you for articulating that, Maven.
I hadn't thought about that in over 20 years and it horrified me to know how much I'd tentatively planned my life around another person's choices. A future man in my life. Any other people's choices. Living in fear of Heavenly Father changing my plans for me. Oof.
@@PrincessJamiG yes! I was afraid having my heart set too much on anything would jinx it and God would step in and take it away
Really sad.
Exactly. And this contributed to me not feeling like I accomplished anything real in life.
The red dress story had me in tears. So much empathy for her. Thanks for sharing, so many others can connect to this experience.
John's response at 2:21:17. Not only is consent not discussed but neither is sex in general. People are told never to do it and then flip on the sexual light switch after marriage and there is supposed to be a perfect sex life without any dysfunction. This is a common problem in evangelical churches as well. If you tell people enough times that sex is bad expect sexual dysfunction after marriage.
I went to a non-denominational Church, which is similar to evangelical, but we were taught that GOSSIPING was worse than committing murder or adultery. Which, l already believed. Because most murderers kill only ONE person, but gossip never quits.
I was fundamental/evangelical growing up and now I am in therapy for religious trauma a lot of which is sexual trauma with trust issues mixed in. I was in an abusive relationship in high school and couldn’t not go to my parents because I couldn’t trust what their reaction would be.
I remember being told that if I remained a virgin until my wedding night that God would ensure that things would go well. Of course a man was saying it.
Gossip is wrong & murders reputations. However, it is NOT equivalent to actual murder. Sooner or later maturity helps us realize that what others think of us (which is one'sreputation) is none of our business It doesn't count & doesn't matter.@@mammawlee
@@MissAmy2913 I grew up as a Southern Baptist. It was evangelical, but I didn't get the memo about virginity until marriage would ensure a good marriage.
I do recall the Youth Minister saying girls who smoke do other things or are assumed to be loose. I didn't smoke, but as a 12 year old I thought his message was faulty. I'm not brilliant or intellectual, but some degree of critical thinking was at play. I think being immersed in the Mormon culture cultivates magical thinking & encourages gullibility &/or exploitive behaviors.
Maven is WONDERFUL! She speaks so truthfully and from the heart! All good things for her! And Jen is such a wonderful addition to Mormon Stories. Jen exhibits such honest empathy and compassion toward the interviewees!
Thank you for your kind words! ❤️
So agree with this. Great insight and loving comments
@@jennkamp ❤
Loved the part where she talks about the Japanese bath house. So much body positivity! So wholesome! Thank you Maven!
Yes, this story reminded me of a similar experience I had my first year in Finland at age 19. Naked in public saunas. No big deal at all. It did a lot to help me get over American puritanism mentality.
A terrific and unique voice to have in the faith transition space. I have enjoyed your support in my journey. Thanks Maven!
♥️ Thank you!
Thank you for sharing Maven. Maven is such a lovely strong woman.
I remember clearly when I was a new nursing graduate when an elderly lady called me to her bedside and she told me that she was afraid of dying. I had no experience with this but I was led to just be present and that gave her some reassurance that she would not be alone. I told her that she would always have the Spirit to be with her and that she would not be alone in death. It seemed to give her comfort and she died the next day. It was one of the best experiences of my life to know that I would be led to help others in their time of need even whenever I felt unexperienced or trained.
Good message & realization as a nurse. I'm a retired RN. Nursing is a tough profession emotionally & physically.
Thankyou for your activism Maven and elevating the voices of post Mormon women.
Of alllll the Mormon Stories interviews I've listened to, Maven telling her story has touched me on many deep and personal levels. No, my experience hasn't been the same, but I identify with many of her internalized thoughts growing up. I've heard a little of her story with Bill Reel & RFM, but this depth is blowing me away. John, thank you for letting her talk and not interrupting or at all side tracking her. In my post TBM perspective Maven is what I now view as one of the "elect" souls. What a beautiful human being!
Record scratch moment, LOL. Gold! When I was 17 years old, I asked a non-mormon boyfriend to investigate the church. I was born into the church, attended everything, studied seminary, thought I knew everything. Ah, no. As he is studying there was a line in the investigator handbook that said, “ A woman’s role is to satisfy the husband’s physical needs”. Record scratch. He was like, “Have you seen this?”. So, no. I hadn’t. Maven is right they groom, gaslight and manipulate women to believe God wants this and it makes you worthy. 🙄
Ugh! That word “worthy”. Gross
OMG! Thank you for posting this, it makes TOTAL sense now why my husband has a certain attitude when it comes to who wants to have sex. No really, I left a year ago, being born in the church and raised, and so many guy issues, this clears them ALL UP! 🤣🤣🤣 So it really was them that was the problem the whole time!
What? Does it really say that? I never read the investigator handbook and a born mormon. This explains a lot of things I have heard in ppls marriages. Scary 😧 I have since left the Church and two bad mormon marriages.
She did a great job. I was always particular about equal role but the organization is patriarchal. Seems many hand over decision to leaders rather than thinking for themselves.
I'm glad it was a record scratch moment for you! ❤ I just assumed it was true, even while being resentful lol.
Although I did have a similar moment when my fiance was critical of the idea that women can't covenant directly to god in the temples... I was in college and had JUST learned the concept of Patriarchy so it was perfect timing
Maven thank you so much for delineating your experience with such honesty and detail. I can so identify with you. My experience was a little different but my concerns are very similar. My faithfulness was coopted and until you described it, I had no idea how much my beliefs and conditioning caused me to betray my sacred self. I am still trying to tease this apart. You have done us a real service.
Thank SO much for this fascinating and informative interview. Maven is refreshing, thoughtful and well-spoken. There were so many topics I related to and found her to be open and forward-thinking. I personally lean more liberal, and loved your open and unbiased discussion about political extremes on both sides, and how harmful they can be no matter if you are conservative or liberal. Asking questions and researching further is so important.
Maven! I was so excited when I saw that you were going to be on Mormon Stories. I already love you from Mormonism Live.
Thank you so much!
What an interesting interview! I've seen Maven on Mormon Discussion and really enjoyed this. She's so smart and insightful.
Thank you Georgie. That's kind of you
there is so much to learn from listening to peoples stories. This channel gives me language, understanding and insights and just enriches life> What a beautiful Human you are Maven. Thank-you for sharing your stories.
I had chills when Maven describes the white blobs in the temple.
👻
Maven, I relate so much to your story, thank you for sharing! When I first went through the temple, I went by myself. My also Mormon husband and I had already been married civilly for 10 years. My bishop thought I've waited long enough for my husband, and he thought that if I took out my endowments on my own, that it would bless our marriage and maybe bring more spiritual strength to my husband to get to the temple. It broke my heart when going through, the part that we had to pledge to our husbands, because here I was, righteous enough to be there on my own, yet I still had to yield to my husband who wasn't trying as hard spiritually. The whole experience was wierd. Went through once and never went back.
Oof. I'm so sorry. And I'm glad/proud you didn't go back! Even though that must've been rough in a way too (?)
@@stheno4783 Yeah it was rough. I have been out of the church for coming up on a year now.
Yeah it was rough. I have been out of the church for coming up on a year now.
@@kaylaly7811 GOOD for you. I hope you can find an actual church that preaches the GOOD NEWS of the gospel of grace.
i’m only halfway through the video and this may be my favorite mormon story so far. i find it so healing to hear others experiences. if i had an episode it would be just like this ❤
Thank you!
Remarkable interview! Maven illustrates perfectly why it's important to hear the female side of being lds. The sexism within the church is blatant; but women blame themselves for noticing that fact and being troubled by it.
Maven that story at around 1 hour and 25 minutes in broke my soul because something like that happened to me in YW's as well... That's just heartbreaking 😭
Would that be the dress? What's most sad to me is that I thought the boys were righteous for calling out my behavior. 🥺
Such genuine brutal honesty is so rare. It’s really hard to admit ignorance or talk about the times in your life when you held quite conservative/homophobic and racist views and I’m glad this is a safe space where Maven could be completely honest about her upbringing as it’ll help set the stage for her faith transition story. She sounds like an amazing intellectual and kind person, can’t wait to hear the rest of her story!
Maven, you truly have a gift for words and are clearly a very thoughtful person who is in touch with her whole person. Thank you for sharing your story!
Maven is such a thoroughly good person. Rare in this world. The details of her experience (family, bullying, "friends" the temple ordinance) are heartbreaking. More of these will further deconstruct the very complex LDS church.
Touching in temple at 1:28:13. It was a shock for me. I went pre-2005 so people were naked under the shield. I had no temple prep class and no idea of what to expect. Same with the endowment. I was told to bring money to buy garments, that's it. I have known people to go through the temple a few times or just once for their sealing day. It was that much of a shock for them.
Waiting and age differences in dating at 1:35:07. There was a missionary in my branch from Las Vegas. He was also a student at BYU. He returned a year after he finished the mission and brought his family. He introduced me to his wife. I asked what college she attended and she said she was still in high school. She had just turned 16. He was 23. I can't imagine what her life would become at such an early age. People are told eternal marriage was a high priority. However I could not help but think her life would have turned out different if she had married at age 26.
Still in high school? 😭
@@amazinmavenYep and newly married at 16. I guess Nevada had early age marriage laws. And the sad part is what kind of life would she have by marrying so young. She would forgo a mission, maybe college, experiences with single friends, and just become a baby factory.
Wait what? Can you marry at 16? This sounds a lot like child abuse to me. What normal 23 yo MAN marries a child? 🤦🏼♀️
@@Pinktoolbox In America some states allow a 16 year old to marry someone older. The age of consent was probably 16 in Nevada. She may have also needed parental permission to marry before age 18.
@@scottbrandon6244 well that is still crazy. What parents let their child marry a grown ass man? My sister married at 18 and it was way to early and it did end up badly. I was 20 when I married a man almost 11 years older with two children. I should have gone to college first, get to know myself and just grow up a bit. But I was at the ripe age and getting married early and having babies was all my life was supposed to be. So I did and I ended up a single mom with 4 kids at 30… let the girls grow up and have a carrier and a lite and not ”only” be wives and babymashines
Oregan Trail Millennial here. 🙋🏾♂️
What a gift for Maven to share her story with us. ❤️ Looking forward to the additional parts!
When you grow up on a shoestring, your view of middleclass people is almost magical. I understand what Maven is saying, when she describes her vision of the perfect family living space. The challenges involved in life without financial security are imperceptible to people who have an extra living room or a basement den or a ride to after school activities. I see you, Maven. I remember those things too.
💜
Thank you. Watching from Alaska.
👍🫂👍
WOW, love the comment and recognition that Hawai'i is an occupied nation. Mahalo
❤ 😢 I'm grateful I got to be there but I'm genuinely sorry for what happened in the past and the continued injustices now. It's definitely a complicated subject.
I haven’t got that far but if so exactly! Something has to change and Hawaii should be a sovereign country. Didn’t learn of this until I visited last year. So sad of the history and what has happened to Maui. I read they were going to get a big lump sum then that happened. So corrupt!!! I pray for Hawaii everyday!
I can't help thinking as a post-menopausal, woman not on hormone replacement, straight & divorced nearly 69 years of age that I am thankful to be asexual. But when I was younger, I had a son & enjoyed raising him. That makes me a little sad for Maven. She missed out on that experience, but that's OK too. No one lives every experience, & those who do are quite messed up in the pursuit.
I think parenting would have stressed me out, but I definitely would have loved any children.
I have found happiness helping with my brothers' children, and I tend to "adopt" nieces and nephews wherever I go. I will be assisting my friend with her daughters while her parents are out of town. Picking up/dropping off at school etc. We have fun. Thanks for your comments
@@amazinmavenare you ASD?
@@debrac1688 Possibly. I haven't tested for it. I am diagnosed with ADHD though
@@debrac1688 Possibly! I haven't tested. I've heard there's a lot of overlap with ADHD.
I have tooo many thoughts on this whole episode. I believe the intent of you podcast is to both inform and provoke. You get a gold star on this one. I can't put into words what I feel.
I'm so glad her professor chewed her out that day, that is the boldness that changes minds. Sometimes as adults we are so insolent publicly that public shame is just the medicine we need. It also made it clear that homophobia wasn't welcome there, and that likely taught the class an important lesson and created a safe space for lgbtq people in the room. Unfortunately sometimes we are shamed for our parents poison, but if someone holds us to a higher standard we can halt the cycle of violent ignorance.
I agree! I'm seeing now that sometimes soft voices work, but sometimes it takes loud, angry voices, and sometimes even mockery is what gets through to some people. I have a hard time figuring out which way I want to share sometimes.
Thank you Maven for sharing your story ❤️ I am off to listen to that last portion of your interview. Your experiences really resonated with me, especially your Mission. I believe we served around the same time and I experienced similar situations. The Elders that were not thrilled with the sister missionaries were called "sister haters" and there were a couple on my mission.
I had also gotten mixed reviews about my decision to go on a mission. My home ward and family in California was thrilled I was going and were super supportive. Then there were the people at BYU where I was going to college. I even had one of my dorm mates mom yell at me in the HFAC that it was not my place to go on a mission because I had a boyfriend at the time and it was my "duty" to mary him 😅.
Thanks again for sharing, it's very valedating to hear a similar experiences and feelings and I am glad you are healing and finding yourself ❤️ it gives me hope ☺️
That's messed up
@Gkit919, I fell like your experience with your roommate is exactly the kind of experience internet Mormons will say "doesn't happen anymore." Yet we experience it.
Loving hearing your story Maven - relating to a lot of it. Crying with you about the red dress incident ❤️.
Man and woman are made equal they walk shoulder to shoulder and the Lord is above them
Now I understand why & how Mormonism affected me. I moved to SLC, UT in 1984 & moved to Auburn, AL in 1989. I returned to Christianity through the Episcopal Church in 1985. Still live in Auburn, but am an Anglican vs Episcopalian now.
I didn't understand Mormon culture until I worked in the UT Dept of Health as the AIDS Coordinator. This is an enlightening program to anchor my understanding of the whole experience.Thanks!
Wow! I cannot imagine
The anonymity of the veiled women in the temple struck me so hard.
You mean when you went through it too?
I’m a never Mormon and my stomach dropped when she said that. She painted a very visual story and the “faceless” women like ghosts broke my heart.
@@katielynch9740 Yeah, what is their logic behind the veils? Just one more way to show women that they're inferior to men?
I certainly understand why Maven drew that conclusion. I'm not Mormon. I'm a Christian & member of the Anglican Church of North America. It's conservative, but not political & not anti-female. Mormonism screws with people in so many, many ways.
Thank you for sharing the touch the hips/butts ;) story even though you might be embarrassed. It’s so innocent. Hearing you makes me feel lighter and less embarrassed about my childhood things. Thank you for sharing your story
Thanks! Getting myself to the point to share it has been a journey, truly. But now that I've shared it, the shame I used to feel has significantly decreased. It does seem more innocent and funny to me now. I knew it was innocent before but still felt extremely embarrassed to even REMEMBER it, let alone think about sharing it.
I appreciate this comment a LOT
I totally relate to Magen.. I was not successful at school growing up. But I was a voracious reader and very good at tests. And I’m severe adhd. I was actually diagnosed as a kid. But my dad didn’t believe it… since I was “smart” so I wasn’t medicated or treated really. I still have a lot of shame and low self esteem around feeling like im lazy etc. because I have really hard time staying organized , etc.
I feel you! I still struggle with organization
I am not a Mormon but girls with ADHD are so often mistreated emotionally, such as being called lazy and even lying.
I didn't know WHY I couldn't hold down a job, why people didn't like me...l only knew l was successful in one way. I could make one man at a time happy while I, too, got extreme joy
@@mammawlee I want(ed) to be so much more than I am but still struggle! I get it, girl. Thanks for stopping by 💜
OMg!! As an atheist, I love Maven’s story so much!!!
❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
Too sacred for your face hahaha 😂 that was a great line. And on a serious note - as a woman who went thru the temple a bunch before I left, I never thought about why we had to veil our faces. When Maven described the blobs that women became, and how the men looked like ppl but the women just were a mass of cloth, not even their eyes showing like you would get with a berka.....like damn. That hits me just writing about it. The church really does do anything they can to take away your identity, especially as a woman don't they? One of the big signs of a cult. :( It's so freaking harmful. And I was always bothered that I wouldn't get to know what my husband's new name was. I just wanted to know. If he got to know mine, which was super sacred to me, why couldn't I share in that knowledge by knowing his?
I’m too sexy for these pants!
I think she's so adorable, and I love her on Mormon discussions
Maven is a delight and I am treasuring part 1, can't wait to make it to part 2.
Maven is such a sweet, sensitive, and emotional person. You can just tell she has a huge heart.
❤
Mavens story is as close to a reflection of my story, even though I am a daughter of the 50s and not a child of the Mormon church.
Temple changes at 3:11:32. There are even members who will deny the ceremony has changed over time. They conveniently "forget" about the penalties pre-1990 or other earlier changes. Then you also have people who went through post 2005 and don't believe you about initiatory and endowment changes.
I went through in 1978… the penalties and naked shield where they actually put the garments on you during the initiatories. But I went through because I was serving a mission.
It is interesting to here someone else's point of view. I never really thought about the veil as being erased or as a negative. Sometimes when you are so close to something, you really can't see it for what it is.
Jenn you are right about how they gaslight us into believing we have it better than the men! I was told that over and over again straight up as I was trying to figure out how plural marriage worked in Heaven. Did anybody ever picture themselves as being a subsequent plural wife? I knew I was going to be Wife Number One for sure! They also tell us we can't be loud, need to be obedient. We are drilled on this
I was going to be wife #1 too, but the older I got while remaining single, the more I came to terms with the idea that I would likely get "assigned" to someone already married so I'd be #...? Who knows?
Does anyone connected with Mormonism ever actually read the Word of God? The Bible itself? Does anyone ever put aside what Joseph Smith wrote and just read the Bible? If they did they'd begin to see the depths of the SELF-SERVING deception and imposed spiritual abuse/slavery intrinsic in the Book of Mormon.
"mom" sounds like a narcissistic person. My mom referred to herself a lot too when I tried to discuss something that concerned me.
I don't know about the label but when women are continually silenced and suppressed they are crying out to be heard, even at the expense of others perhaps?
Even without the label on the mom, the behavior is narcissistic
@@debbieshrubb1222 'Expense of others'? What others specifically? Both male AND FEMALE are made in God's image according to Genesis 2. Have you ever read it? Have you ever read the Bible at all? Consider putting aside all the writings of Joseph Smith and just spend time in the Word of God. Ask the Lord Jesus to open your heart to Him and Him alone.
@@71suns what an aggressive response. I suspect I'm much better versed in the Hebrew Bible than you.
Making me faceless. That made it so real Maven.
Maven you're adorable!!! (😊In my opinion ❤) I left "the church" in 1978 because that's when my shelf broke I guess (I'd never heard of a "shelf" but it started between my baptism & "confirmation") thank you for pointing out so many things I had never realized until now❤❤
I consider myself a Mormon by birth Christian by choice! God bless you in your life😊❣️
Maven you are beautiful and I'm truly enjoying listening to part 1 of your story. Thank you for sharing. This community is amazing. Thank you MSP💗
Early marriage at 1:36. This was the subject of many priesthood and RS classes at BYU in the 1990s. Eternal marriage was the goal, to get and MRS degree. There is that scene in the film Mona Lisa Smile where the professor asks the college women what their goals are. They want to get married as if that is the supreme goal. Then the one student who does marry is miserable.
WOW…..what a great discussion about women’s choices and roles! Sad but so true!
John, you are SUCH an amazing interviewer!!
I consider myself to be aware. I have always questioned things the leaders would say (in my mind). I never told the people in church because I didn't know how they would respond.
I really enjoyed listening to her story because she shared her thought process so well.
It is called "the Mormon dream" because you have to be asleep to believe it.
Maven, I was told by my father that the reason women have to veil their faces was because the motion of Raising arms and bringing them down at the prayer circle was to call God down into the room and if you don’t have the priesthood you couldn’t withstand his presence. All symbolic of course
That's interesting and confirms many of the things that Maven expresses.
Sounds just as good as any other made up reason
The self-serving deception and audacity of Mormonism is beyond horrific.
At 2:20:11. That was the story country singer Loretta Lynn basically told about her wedding night in the book and film Coalminer's Daughter. She was 13 when she married. No one had told her much of what to expect and she was freaked out.
What a lovely lady ❤️
I am an x catholic, and Maven’s interview is helping me heal from my religious trauma. Thank you so incredibly much for doing this.
I really wanted to hear Maven’s story but I just can’t bare to watch anything with Jen now knowing what would later happen.
This one is definitely worth watching.
Never heard anyone speaking faster than her.Good luck to her
I once told someone that I'd consider going back to church under one condition: The prophet would have to be a woman. And I wasn't joking.
Consider reading the book of Hebrews in the Bible.
Maven makes me glad I wasn't raised in a super orthodox conservative Mormon family. Being raised "normal" Mormon was bad enough.
Never knew Mormon were allowed to get divorced
30:00 - 32:00 I raised my hand to the square as a little girl and told a scary spirit to leave. It seemed to work. But I'm really not sure if it was my imagination and emotions getting the better of me, or if that silhouette of a large man was really there.
As an adult, I've had a friend visit me from the other side, but the handshake thing had been lost from my memory by then. I couldn't actually see them anyway, I could only hear them. But I felt I knew where they were standing. (It was actually pretty startling, which I had not anticipated when I was daydreaming about being able to see or hear spirits!)
The handshake thing seems laughable, though, because my spirit knows who they are.
And if you wanna know what she said... She told me a joke! You don't lose your personality or sense of humor on the other side! 😉
I'm from the same generation as Maven.
Maven is such a delight! Love her on Mormonism Live too. Hope you can have her cohost sometimes. I say this even though I’m a Philly burbs never-mo 😂
Which Philly 'burb?
@@amazinmaven I’m from Radnor.
The bathhouse story reminds me of the first time seeing this commercial in the 2000’s for a medication that showed all of these midriffs and I was like, “oh! Heroin Chic isn’t the only acceptable look”. Body Acceptance culture has come a long way but foundational influences are hard to shake
I seen her on a Short a few weeks ago and what she said stuck with me so deeply that I had to seek her story.
❤ Thanks for coming!
Much love to Maven! 🤗
❤
Wow. I never knew there were guys out there that had an issue with sister missionaries. I loved the sister missionaries on my mission and I don't think I would have had an issue marrying a return sister missionary. It never even occurred to me that that would be something people would have an issue with.
That's good! I definitely think the culture of missions is changing a lot now that more sisters are going. Each mission and mission president also has their own subculture, so you may have been in a much healthier one.
The talk of the RM at 2:48:37. I agree. An RM can tell a lot of "war stories" to some unsuspecting female BYU student and convince her "the spirit" told him this was the girl to marry. She will be more likely to have that "hero worship" phase. There is also the high RM status when elders return that make them a hot commodity among women. Unfortunately too many RMs turn into tyrants as husbands. There are horror stories of RMs marrying women they met on their mission or at university upon return and then it is all downhill from there.
I refuse to paint every single RM as a complete failure as a human, however you are not wrong it does happen. Dysfunction of a closed group can happen. I have met wonderful RM and ones you describe. I am RM and resigned out of it. I still help the missionaries out her tracking with cash as they eat poorly.
A 'spirit' may have told him 'something' BUT REST ASSURED it wasn't the Holy Spirit.
🙋🏽♀️ Me too! On the ADD thing….. If you’re smart they don’t notice and if you’re obedient by nature they don’t notice and if you somehow sit through 2 hours of General Con[men’s Biggest Lies] they don’t notice. Phew…. Okay. I will get back to listening to the show. Just came to say me too. Also only realizing this in my 30s and after deconstructing Mormonism. Glad I can get actual help rather than just praying to be “more Christlike” and “more willing to do the things I’ve been commanded to do.” lol xxxx
Agreed! Getting my diagnosis and learning more about what it looks like for adult women helped me so much. Because it was like everything I hated about myself and struggled so hard to change are things directly related to ADHD. But in the Church I had no other way to view it than as sins or character/moral flaws. 🥺
I tried to pray, read scriptures, set goals etc to try to access the Atonement to change my nature to be what I felt I was supposed to be and wanted to be
I remember Oregon Trail; I would ride my bike to the library to play it.
What a well-spoken and introspective young woman. She's so sweet.
It's interesting how the church teaches that when we are alone, we should search the scriptures and pray and try to feel "the Lord's presence" on our side. That toxicity is so clear to me now. The Mormon method, encourages people to isolate even more.
Instead of working on our social skills or searching for a new hobby, members easily follow that toxic council, and spend MORE time alone. Really, we should be trying to build relationships, go outside, try to get better at a skill or sample something totally new.
Isolating with the bible and praying in the closet, are the worst things to do. I was taught wrong also Maven. Much of my youth was very lonely too!
John often quotes Mark Twain “travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow mindedness” and I think that’s poignant. The more you pick out new hobbies, socialise and build relationships outside the church the more likely you are to meet people that open your mind, the church doesn’t want that.
It’s like all 4 parts of BITE model rolled into one.
I had never considered this perspective, before. So true.
Are you referring to the Word of God..the Bible, or the writings of Joseph Smith in the Book of Mormon when you say 'the scriptures'?
I think the temple garb they have for the women make them anonymous. It doesn’t matter who they are; it only matters what they are. If one of them fails they are easily replaced with a new anonymous female
There are two mosques in my neighborhood and I see women wearing burquas all the time. I would argue that they have it better in terms of at least their clothing are made with color and adornment. I was once in the dressing room at Victorias Secret while a few Saudi women were trying on lingerie. Let me tell you what they have on underneath those things are a lot sexier than the temple as well
I was very upset that the church had Boy Scouts but nothing for the girls. I was very involved in Girl Scouts and got an award for selling the most cookies in my region. I did it bc my parents wouldn’t help me. It’s so messed up there isn’t many things for the girls
Thats a GREAT reason to leave a church.....
@@johnnyonthespot1665 that the church doesn't allocate resources to support you, or indeed, your whole sex? I agree, it IS a great reason to leave!
@@johnnyonthespot1665 did they say they left over it? ... maybe you are assuming a bit here.
Surely feedback for an organization from within is more likely to be constructive than external feedback.
Agreed. It makes it so obvious how little they cared about us. There are still leaders who are legitimately baffled about why girls might want to do any of the fun things the boys did like lasertag when we could be staying at the church learning how to iron our future husband's dress shirts. 🤷♀️😬
@@JP-JustSayin You are right, that’s not why I left but I was like six years old
Jenn, your thoughts on how it's so sad re your college hopes made me so sad. I don't know exactly what you believe, I'm new here, but as a Christian I believe God made you with a brain, a good one by the sound of it! He (not literal he)...wants you to use your brain, get out there & become who you were created to be. You are a lovely, sensitive person. Take heart!
At 1:32:29 Purity culture. I will give an example of how much this is drilled into people's minds. I knew someone raised in the church who did not even kiss her husband until after they were sealed in the temple. It was drilled into young people that if they held hands, kissed, hugged or spent too much time together it would lead to sex. In young women they used to use the spit on a cupcake and chewed gum as examples. They would ask if young women would accept chewed gum or spit on the cupcake. It was supposed to a lesson on virginity and purity.
Good grief.
The feeling she's describing at around 1:45 sounds a lot like "inchallah" in Arabic culture, "Gd willing", like qualifying your plans "barring unforseen circumstances"...
Maven, you are a dear. Love to you.
Never Mormon, but the ADHD perfectionism fits the Mormon mold. Dx'd at 7 and discovered the Osmonds at 8. Tried to emulate them as a much as a Lutheran girl can.
Yeah, John is right. I think subconsciously most Mormon Moms want to teach their daughters have prescribed limitations. My Mom taught me that and so did my Dad.
Doubt at 1:08:03. The doubt thing is natural. There really is no place to go. If you go to your bishop you may run into losing a recommend. There is a lot of stigma to those who have doubt. However I feel everyone has it, even the so-called TBMs. Doubt is actually a good thing. Some doubts are never resolved, or meant to be resolved. Maven's talk about doubt and questioning Hinckley etc. is tied to an article "Infected with Doubt" from Dialogue (Fall, 2017) I read yesterday by Knoll and Riess. It looked at who was more likely to doubt. It may have some similarities to Dehlin's study in 2013. There definitely variation based on education, serving a mission, marrying in the temple, and whether the persona was raised in the church.
I'll check out that article. But at this point I want really expressing or even feeling doubts. I was EXTREMELY accepting, to a fault, of what I had been taught. So what I am describing here was a mental exercise to prevent against even a CHANCE at future doubt.
I couldn't even comprehend what sincere "doubts" about the Church even looked or felt like until much later in my life. Like, even when I began learning troubling things, my struggle to make it "fit" somehow was not connected to the Church being true or not. I took for granted that it WAS true, so anything I wrestled with doctrinally was still within that safety net.
@@amazinmaven I always hated the term "I know the church is true" because in reality it means different things to members. It has negative connotations. I hate when a child would "testify" on fast Sunday (or freedom of speech day) and be fed the lines by a parent. Ultimately each kid would say they knew the church is true. How would they know that unless someone told them it was true? There is also something you raise above. Even though you come to a point where you know the church is not true or maybe parts of it, there is a correction mode that kicks in. Good Mormons, especially the TBMs are supposed to rationalize any doubt. Apologetics is really good at this. For example we know JS married a 14 year old, but she was only a few months shy of her 15th birthday. Or sure we hear what you say about a controversy in the church, but that has not LDS logo on the document so I will not read it. There is a book called When Prophecy Fails by Leon Festinger et al. that deals with how people in high demand religions use coping mechanisms and continue in a religion when prophecy fails or members "wake up" to the truth. You should also watch the recent doc "Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed." There are still Hillsong members even though the leaders have been outed in media. Learning to deal with doubt and make it "fit" with the church is normal.
@@scottbrandon6244 What you're describing is brainwashing techniques cults instill on their followers. Consider doing some reading about cults. You'll find some real similarities.
Hello. Sorry in advance, but English is my second language. Around minute 22 when the guest speaks about angels I remember that on 1980’s D&C’s edition I read that angels had either white or yellow hair also. The one’s with white hair were the good ones but not the ones with yellow hair. Does anyone remember reading that as well? Thanks for your help
That is correct! In English versions it's "sandy-colored" hair that Joseph Smith said couldn't be on a real angel 😆
What would he have thought about purple hair? Lol
@@amazinmaven thank you so much for your answer. I joined the church in 1979 in Monterrey, México and the translation was very specific on white or yellow (blonde) hair but then later editions doesn’t mention those colors. Thanks again
Oh my god I forgot about the evil spirit handshake trick
Glad I reminded you! You never know when that'll come in handy. 😂
@@amazinmaven Truly 😂
Spiritual brainwashing leads to embraced spiritual deception and spiritual slavery. Never-ending performance based religion is NOT the good-news of the Gospel of grace poured out for us all.
Mission call to Philadelphia at 2:49:48. None too shabby. In the early days of the church there was a settlement of Saints in Philadelphia.
I used to tell my husband that he was not allowed to put that veil over my face in my casket as I had every right to look at God’s face with my face fully unveiled as any man. Now they have removed that procedure. Imagine that.
It's funny, I've been told I wasn't "spiritual" enough to understand the symbolism behind it but when I ask those people to help me out and explain what I missed, they have no answers. 🤷♀️
Discernment is a gift to us humans. With it comes responsibility. If something feels off, it is our responsibility to find out why and when we know, we must vow to do better. Those opportunities come at a young age with small matters. As we practice discernment, it makes the actions easier as we get older. I think that the church has done a disservice with this when they tell you every move that you should be making with all of the morality codes and such. We need to have our own experiences and learn from them because through these experiences we will gain empathy and compassion.
Great point! The Church successfully diverts us away from trusting our intuition in favor of dogma. It caused so many unfortunate moments. Near constant.
Her story about the young priesthood members making comments about her red dress is just another example why these boys were too young to have that authority. That was a big judgment error. They probably never were called on their behavior and they probably felt that they were justified in making their comments. This makes me angry.
Mormons are so judgmental and it's so heartbreaking to hear how you felt when you overheard the boys talking about your dress.
Please make a video about the Hulu new series “Under the Banner of Heaven” a Detective uncovers buried truths about the origins of the LDS religion and the violent consequences of unyielding faith.
I believe there is one in the works!
@@BackupChannel329 Yayy!
Have you read the Bible? All Christianity is the story of people thru slavery, escape, exile, destruction, refinement, change and coming to know God. In fact, it is the story of all humankind. Did you expect a true faith to have something less?
From what I hear the series is not that great.
@@jcrook5904 Some Christians will basically answer anything with such a nonsense answer. "My fingernail broke.' "read the Bible!" I wouldn't even bother to react.