Indy 500 Red Flag History
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- čas přidán 22. 05. 2024
- / davidland
The Indy 500 has had a recent bout of red flag fever. Talking about the odd and sparse history of the use of the red flag at the Indy 500, NASCAR influence on the race and stoppages of the race through history.
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Red flags being used as a manipulative entertainment tool rather than a safety tool is as backwards as it gets in motorsports
Exactly this... It should be only done for entertainment purposes if before the race all the drivers agree to it. That's how I see it at least.
1:36 racing was so dangerous back then that you could even get decapitated heading to victory lane 😅
Haha right?! Wtf was that?!
Green, white checkers at Indy, is only inviting danger. This isn't NASCAR.
Even in NASCAR it’s proving to be overkill. The 2020 Daytona 500 comes to mind
Or 2021 Abu Dhabi F1 for that matter 😂
@@LessGo7921 No Michael!
@@danielarndt284”No Roger! This is so not right” - Chip probably in 2023
Cautions breed cautions
There is a fine line between an exciting and entertaining finish and having cars covered with a tarp, if you get what I'm saying...
My only issue with races ending under caution is if the caution came out with more than 8 or so laps to go and it ends the race. A rule that I'd love to see for NASCAR (and I think Indycar could possibly implement it too in some way) is if a caution comes out with more than lets say 4 to go, there is one guaranteed restart, and if the caution comes out after 4 to go, the race is over.
I would alter that a little. If the yellow comes out with ten laps to go, yellow flags laps only count down to 4 then we stop counting until the green flag comes out. Cars keep circling the track that way. Pits should be open during that time.
@@NavyBlueSTL Only problem with that idea is that IndyCar only allows enough fuel for 203 laps of the track (three parade/pace laps and 200 race laps). If they stop counting laps under yellow, they could conceivably have every single car run out of fuel before the race was over (I recall one time when there was a red flag on the pace laps, USAC actually sent a fuel truck out to refill everybody's pitside fuel container to accommodate the complete restart since that required extra laps to be run). That's not a totally insurmountable problem, but it would require a rule change to make it happen.
I think IndyCar will continue with the current way of throwing the red until tragedy strikes. Then I think we will see a change again
Unfortunately, I think you're right. It seems like racing series don't fully appreciate just how dangerous certain ways of doing things are until there's a tragedy. One example I can think of is F1 being more willing to red flag a start post 1994 San Marino GP. A lot of the theories surrounding what happened with Senna's Williams stem from the caution after the crash on the grid at the start.
I sure as hell hope 2021 Abu Dhabi didn’t rot the brains of race control for good 🤞
I remember vividly back in the 2020 Indy 500 when they “controversially” ended the race under yellow after the red flag for Pigot’s awful crash, a lot of people complained about it not restarting and ending under green. Now that Indycar tried doing a bs “end under green” finish last year, I hope it made them all learn that forcing a green flag finish is not necessarily worth it 😂
Very timely David. Thanks. Last years red flag use was unprecedented and hope they are more judicious with its use this year.
With the 90% chance of rain, we’re likely to get at least one red flag Sunday
The Indy 500 is too dangerous to use the red flag like this.
I was hoping for a more comprehensive history of the red flag such as the 1964 race or the 1973 500 Salt Walther incident.
I believe if things were flipped (Newgarden 1st) then it wouldn’t have gone green
No doubt. I also think that in 2020 had a penske been in second place at the moment of the red flag they would have at least waited more time before deciding to finish under caution
Absolutely 👍
100% Agree
You have to remember that Newgarden was leading when the 2nd Red Flag came out so that SHOOTS your theory down! TRY AGAIN!
@@pulishem There is NO WAY that they could have done that when it would have taken close to 2 hours to fix the attenuator! I can't fathom why people can't use common sense! SMH on this one!
One of your best video David. Excellent job on the history and how it all changed in the last 20 years. Particularly the NASCAR influence. I was disgusted by what happened the last 2 years with these red flag finishes.
David, the Green, White, Checker if used at the 500 is just inviting a crash that could seriously injure or worst kill a driver. Look at NASCAR and races at Talladega or Daytona. How many times has the Green, White, Checker caused an even larger crash at those two tracks. There they are in full body stock cars, but In IndyCar with the vehicles massive speed I can only imagine the results of a huge NASCAR type pile up. Like I said I would hate for someone to get seriously hurt or killed just to have a green flag finish.
The drivers are aware of the risk and have fully accepted them. The fans in the seats are mostly not aware of these risks and mostly wouldn't be accepting of them.
What they're toying with here is putting fans at a serious risk. Unnecessarily IMHO.
Last year was embarrassing. If I see another late red, I'm not gonna bother watching the finish.
I hate contrived finishes. Sure, it was exciting last year, but was it fair? If this trend continues, drivers and fans are risking great injury or worse.
David! Thoroughly enjoy your CZcams channel. I’ve always prided myself on being an amateur Indy historian. Thought I knew all kinds of minutiae about the race history of rain delays, red flag’s etc. this particular post, is your finest! Donald Davidson, Robin Miller & Bob Jenkins would most definitely agree. Well done, my young friend!
NASCAR had a cutoff lap in the years before GWC. 5 laps to go was typically the point of no return and any caution after that meant the race would always end under yellow. If Indycar wants green flag finishes without extending the race distance, then they should adopt this rule.
As someone who attended last year's Indy 500, if the race had ended after that last yellow, I would have been bummed but still would've left the track satisfied. I don't believe finishes always define the quality of the race and I think we sometimes put too much emphasis on the finish. The 2015 Indycar race at Fontana is a great example. It ended under caution but the overall race was so amazing that most fans didn't care.
Love these history segments
I still stand by what I said last year : I am perfectly fine with a race ending under the yellow flag. If you throw the yellow with a handful of laps to go, that's it. race over. Do NOT throw the red flag to set up a god damn shootout with a handful of laps to go. IndyCar last year got SO LUCKY that nobody smashed into the pit wall at 230+ MPH because if Newgarden did? it would've been blood on their hands. Dead serious, we all look to NASCAR as the golden standard of end of the race officiating ? We need to tell them to get their act together. And I'm saying that as both a NASCAR and IndyCar fan.
This is my favorite source for Indy news and history. Love this channel.
they should not continue with these messy red flags, if it ends under yellow so be it
NICELY DONE David!
That restart last year would NEVER had happened if it was Marcus behind Josef. Indycar has not been "racing on equal terms" for a long time, but never has it been shown as blatantly open as that...
Wow, I never knew that before. This was a very good interesting video.😀✅
I'm ok with using a red flag to get one last shot at a green flag finish; emphasis on one. I also think there should be a rule in place that dictates the last lap a red flag can be thrown that can be followed by a green to restart the race, probably around 2-3 to go. Otherwise just let the race finish under yellow to the scheduled distance. I'm so tired of the chaos that typically happens at the end of NASCAR races when they keep attempting the GWC.
Hi David, thanks for your quick videos you made after each day or racing at the Speedway. I watched almost all of them.
I have a question, why the small wall on the main straight has never had a fence ?
I find it strange that on the back straight, there is the track and on its left, the apron, the grass, a wall with a fence, but on the main straight, just a small wall
If the yellow flag meant "stop" in the early days, what was the equivalent of the yellow flag, and how did it actually work? I know they didn't pack up behind the pace car til 1979 (having what was basically identical to Formula One's Virtual Safety Car with the almost-comical pacer light system in the 70s), but before that was it basically what we'd call a local yellow today or what?
holy crap at 5:10. did that tire go outside the track and where did it end up?
Please no green white checker overtime crap. Nascar is way too gimmicky.The leader in the last lap wins the race it is that simple
With 90% chance of severe thunderstorms on Sunday per the SPC Outlook it’s looking likely that the 500 will be held on Memorial Day
I hate that racing is unable to finish behind a pace car anymore. Maybe im just a salty Ericsson fan. Last years Australian GP was red flagged with 2 laps left, naturally half the field wrecked on the restart in a mad dash to gain spots. And nascar devolves into chaos with its overtime rule where they keep going if the leader doesnt take the white flag. Just left them finish under caution
Last year I was in the stands and the fans around me were annoyed with the late reds. Was it exciting? Sure. Was it dangerous? Potentially. This is a race that doesn’t need to finish under green if conditions aren’t right. Driver safety shouldn’t be sacrificed for the TV audience.
Racing is entertainment. A dramatic ending is why we tune in. It’s a letdown when a race ends under caution.
Well, we'll just have to live with that. Artificially trying to make it exciting just for the sake of it is just stupid
Could a practical approach to finishing under green be halving the pace car speed in the final 25 laps from say 60mph to 30mph? This would double the time it takes to make a lap under caution (2.5 mins to 5 mins), providing the time to clean debris while lessening laps under caution.
you rang? (side note, the fact last year's 500 was the first time since 1973 that it had at least three red flags is mind boggling)
In Supercars the rule was if more than 75% of the race was completed the stewards MAY at their discretion red flag the race and declare results at that point (don't think that happened in a dry race, closest was Bathurst 2005 with the pileup at The Cutting with less than 20 laps to go). Would that be palatable for US fans?
No, fans would pelt the track with beer cans.
The crashes at the end go to show what happens when you arent as worried about dying as the drivers from the past were
Considering how many laps are wasted under cautions that happen through
Out the race normally, I think it’s pretty reasonable to have the red flag come out immediately if there’s a wreck in the final 10 laps, and then whatever provisions are needed for the final 2 laps, write those into the rules so there’s no grey area. Maybe a red flag for laps 12-2, and then the penultimate and final laps any caution ends the race
I’m pretty sure the rule is if a Penske car is in second , a red flag/shoot out finish is going to happen. If a Penske car is in the lead, we end under yellow.
I remember it in 1964 which was my first time attending the 500.
this fans opinion - using a red to try to finish under green is fine, especially in the modern era when cars are always dueling for position right until the very end. however the race should not go longer than the scheduled distance, and red should not be thrown after a certain point, say lap 195.
trying to minimize the chance that the 500 winner is just the driver who happened to be in the lead when the caution gets thrown is worthwhile.
I would be very happy if this was the rule going forward, with the added rule that there are no one lap runs to the finish. If lap 199 is under caution, so is lap 200
3:22 ok yes technically 2011 ended with a crash, but it was after turn 4 on the final lap and it involved the leader, so ... Not the same as the others
Questionable finishes Ericsson and Newgarden winner Penske. Castroneves and Tracy winner Penske. Unser and Andretti winner Penske
While I agree with what you’re saying, I think they got it right 02.
Given how the weather looks on Sunday, we may see yet another red flag. Or am I reading the SPC outlook entirely wrong though? I'm seeing rain and storms possible for the Midwest with a chance of severe weather including Indianapolis
I would love to see the statistics of how many cars have been wrecked in NASCAR during GWC finishes vs. final 3 laps before they started GWC finishes. I understand trying to finish under green, but safety comes first and the race should always be the Indy 500, not 502.5 or 505.
Amen! Green-white-checkers are stupid and have robbed rightful winners of races, especially the Daytona 500...Mark Martin and Kyle Busch were both leading after 500 miles and ended up losing.
I think the rule should be that the red flag comes out once, only between laps 190 and 195.
I have another question, I try to be a historian, but never have found this answer. Have they ever waved off a start at the 500 due to poor line up?
yes, many times, cheers from italy,mate
@@ror312gallery19 any idea of the years?
@@briancampbell5272 no sorry, BC,
The start of the 2009 race was waved off at the flagstand due to poor alignment. They went green the next time by.
In 1981, Duane Sweeney was not satisfied with the alignment, and held back the green flag (and was reaching for the yellow). But the field was racing anyway, and he changed his mind and put the green anyway (it was a little late, actually).
As for during the race, there have been a number of restarts "waved off", for a variety of reasons.
I’m honestly fine with nascar using GWCs/overtime, but like…. This is literally the opposite of IndyCar’s historical position on things like that. IndyCar is the racing purist’s league, and not just to keep the boomers happy: there’s a reason IndyCar runs things that way.
Last year…. I never ever ever want to see that again.
I understand why people want the race to finish under green. If there's a crash and not enough time to clear up before the finish, sure throw a red in an attempt to set up a green flag finish. But if the drivers can't do it the first time, then it ends under yellow. Otherwise you end up with the ridiculousness of last year.
4:28 That was because Pigot was injured.
Once the 198th lap has commenced. No Red Flag should be used to ensure a Green Flag Finish.
one thing that nascar does good is overtime i think...i hate everything else after the 90s
2022: Red Flag was okay
2023: 2nd Red Flag to much
Green White Checkered is a completely different animal if you mix it in Indy Car. It's only in NASCAR because we fans are entertainment animals and couldn't care less about spending all of that time and money to watch a race just to end in a boring yellow flag. However I do feel like in a G/W/C Styled environment, you are putting the drivers in a more dangerous situation not too dissimilar to the time when Dan Wheldon died. The drivers are going to be put in a position where they need to act within 2 laps to finish the race and are more prone to accident. In Indy car is a hell of a lot more dangerous than NASCAR will ever be.
Should’ve thrown it in 2020 dude. I’ll die on this hill. Just one of the many times Dixon was scammed out of a win.
So its cool for Harun to run 500 miles as fast as he can, but when I do it AAA wont give me a tow after blowing my tires???
The red flags last year were so absurd it turned me off of the series for the rest of the season, taking an hour to finish the last 15 laps is unacceptable.
3:10 Does 2011 really count though?
Didn’t like the 3 reds last year. No matter what they do They have to preserve the 500 mile distance and the fastest 33 at all costs.
All of the “arm chair” comments have merit. Our opinions are based on our passion for this great sport! However, from the perspective of professional race drivers it depends on your position. If you’re leading and the yellow is thrown, great! If you’re in second or third position with no chance for that “Shoot out”, not great. If it’s red flag instead, the leader surely has his work cut out for him as he knows that those behind are going to do anything that they can to win. Good for fans? Good for tv ratings? Good for the leader? Good for the challengers? Always fun to have controversy. Just glad I’m not the chief Steward!!
C O N T R O V E R S Y
I guess.... We should just make our peace with red flags. I suppose I can swallow that pill as long as they never extend the race distance.
Same, green-white-checkers belong in the trash.
One rule I would add is if at least 90% of the race distance is completed (180 laps for the Indy 500), anytime the red flag is displayed after that point, the race is automatically over, with scoring reverting to the last completed lap.
Formula 1 has gone the same route
Remove cars a lap or more behind at lap 190
last years red flag was not a good look. just seemed too convenient for boogarden.
k
Just count green flags to the race distance. Problem solved.
I'm all in favor of Green-White-Checkered in non Nascar races. 2021 Abu Dhabi could surely use it, as does the Indy 500 for that matter. Sure it has its cons, but do does Red Flag Shenanigans.
EASY, JUST STOP COUNTING LAPS UNDER YELLOW IN ALL RACING
I actually agree. But … fuel? tires? Add an extra pit stop?
Second
Yup. I stopped watching NASCAR because of this nonsense. I really hate that Indycar is doing it too. It's race manipulation.
I remember being at the edge of my seat when the green and white flag came out last year
My rule would be "Caution laps don't count within the final 10 laps of an oval race or 5 laps of a road/street course." Stamp it, print it, do it. Indy and NASCAR
Nah either yellow flags do or don't count , I think yellow finishes are fine
No saying first
So all these red flag winners are a joke and Dario is also a joke 500 winner.
I disagree since the field had the same opportunity to step on the loud pedal as the red flag winner did. As far as Dario goes, he was a great racing champion throughout his career and just because he crossed the line under yellow as the winner does not make him a less than driver. He is revered for his driving skills, so much so that he has been a driver coach since his devastating accident in a Houston street race.
@@craigchristensen6140he seems to be happier now he is divorced. I think that was a PR publicly stunt type marriage and other relationships in a huge public eye.
Marcus was robbed
Unpopular opinion on this channel but the race to the finish last year was exciting. There was no harm that came out of it just passing and a green flag finish. Ask the 250000 fans there how much better that was than a parade behind a pace car on lap 200.
I was in the crowd and fuming, was gonna leave cause they crashed so many cars for a stupid race towards the attenuator, now we have track limits at indy
i did not think they were controversial at all. a driver should not be given the win. when drivers in the back crash when trying to finish 21st. throw the red to allow for clean up of the track. no yellow flags wasting laps when they try to clean the track.
I think every race not weather related should be finished under a green flag. As much as everyone criticizes NASCAR, I think the Green, White, Checkered overtime is the best for fans. Yes I’m a Hamilton fan and believe they should have red flagged the last race in 2021. Let’s Hamilton and Verstappen fight it out on equal footing.