Why Less Motion Is Best Motion ! - Motion Simulators For Race Drivers
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- čas přidán 8. 06. 2024
- Having experienced almost every type of motion simulator on the market I explain in this video why less motion is almost always better when it comes to realistic race car motion simulation.
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#motionsimulation #GamerMuscle #Racing
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Production Music courtesy of Epidemic Sound: www.epidemicsound.com - Hry
Thanks for watching and hitting the like button with the force of a subtle suspension compression.
TRy building yourself an SFX-100. 10cm travel, but fast and responsive. Best part: you build and print it yourself (sounds dodgey, but look it up, it really isn't)
I know it is cheeky, but at 0:13 I can see you in what looks like the SRD Motus Ultimate, from the time you spent with it would you say you could recommend it as a motion rig?
So what motion rigs do you recommend?
out of curiosity will less work for flight and space sims too?
Its like watching an egg bouncing around in boiling water.
Lol
Like a bowling ball in washing machine.
I’m dead 😂
muhahahaha
im bald and thats funny af🤣🤣
My girlfriend came home from work and when she heard the intro music she asked: “are you watching a dirty movie from the late 80’s?” I answered “no, I’m watching GM’s latest video. She looked at the screen and walked away. 🐴 approved.
What ever you do dont watch an old skool health n safety vid late at night when shes in bed.
Hi, I'm Mr Muscle. I understand you have a problem with your... "simulator"?
@@toxaq 😂
@@chilli-soup I will only watch it if GM is director and actor. 🙂
Worked as an engineer on a top level race series motion rig which saw a variety of pro drivers come through for a couple of years and this was the exact same conclusion that was arrived at even before I got there. Almost all of the motions focused on the impulse movements, so not just suspenion inertia but kerb strikes and high speed weight shift. The only sort of "G Force Simulation" we had were seat belt tensioners for braking simulation. I chuckle every time now I see one of those gigantic gymnasium filling G force simulators because I know someone has put way too much money in to make the simulation experience worse (Unless it's for a flight simulator or something)
I thought of that actually, Mercedes seats with active side bolsters must have been a cool idea to experiment with that tighten on certain side when turning the wheel
As someone who's looking to purchase a rig, what would you recommend?
@@Moose1776 a 2 dof racing seat with scn5 actuators or gs-5 gseat.
@@systemachic not the H3 DOF?
All I want is a sim rig that vibrates a bit and feels realistic when I play forza horizon 5
These kinds of 'informational' films, you're putting out recently have a very Alan Partridge feel to them. I want more!
Crash! Bang! Wallop! What a video...
@@putzak 🤣🤣
Before this video I thought you were just a torso, arms, bald head and socks. Glad to see you actually have legs.
100% agree, all movements of the rig must be quick/short and precicly and that‘s why I love my DIY SFX100.
I've been saying this for years. Glad someone finally brought it to the attention of the sim rig community.
I have a simrig and a masters degree in mechanics so... braking affects your complete body in one direction up to about 1 G at the same time 1 G is pulling you down. If you tilt the seat 45 degrees while sittning still you get the feeling of braking. The problem is the transition. This gives unwanted dynamic effects due to inertia. So the only thing you can simulate, to a degere, cleanly is bumps. So some rigs say 1-6 degree of freedom. That is true but they can not simulate dynamic transitions correctly. So with less motion less wrong dynamic transition effects.
This is exactly my experience and why pressure seats + tension belts to me are 100x better than tilt to simulate g-forces and sustained forces.
As someone who's recently been getting into Racing sims and is looking to get a simrig in the future, where could I look around for a good rig that takes in account the tips mentioned in this video? :O
I mostly do VR drifting, not sure if that's important or not, but I'm super keen on getting one of these for myself at some point! I found one called Yawvr that I thought was good, but after watching this I'm starting to reconsider it haha
With a 6DOF rig you can achieve great results regarding transition and sustained G force by combining the DOFs through filters. Basically the horizontal movement gives the initial spike feeling but since they have a limited stroke the motion transitions to a sustained G force by tilting the rig through lower frequency lowpass filters. For example the "FlyPT mover" motion software allows for fine-tuning these transitions. In case of a rectangular 6DOF rig (not stewart platform) you are using the vertical actuators' stroke mostly for tilting the rig, while still having enough headroom left for simulating the bump on the heave DOF and also allow for extra tilt due to the geometry of the race track for places like eau rouge, or for rallying, etc...that's why my motion rig has 180mm of vertical and 360mm of horizontal stroke. The actual heave movement is very much dialed down but the extra stroke comes in handy when simulating the transition between initial and sustained forces. Motion platform size alone is not telling the whole story, the devil is in the details how you drive it...
yes. exactly my thoughts. tried 3 different motion sims so far. the best experience 100% was when it was not overdone. this is a video i will def save and link people to in the future. great content. thx
Loving all the content you are putting out lately. I have my own DIY motion rig and have been using it about 3 years, and definitely agree that smaller subtle but accurate motion really works and makes it much easier to drive for long sessions.
Thanks 👍😊.
Nailed it mate. Excellent video.
So right, so many motion cockpits I've tried felt more like randomly shaking around than anything which did make sense and a few that were setup in a way just doing things which make sense and not overdo stuff felt by far better than the more extreme ones.
Been thinking of a motion platform and thought that some rigs have too much aggressive motion.
Very helpful, reinforced my thinking.
Thanks 👍
I am partially agree on the statement. Most motion platform were design by geek or engineer who had never drove race car before, therefore there are lots of imagination involved and thus it is very difficult to do a right job. Motion platform are also limited to amount of moment that can be done to simulate the g force and angular momentum of each axis. Thus, motion platform is best to give user just a kick and let user's brain to take over the rest. Human brain is very interest device, as long there are an associated feed back force to each action, our brain will eventually translate that into the right feeling.
"Welcome to the BBC. This is the weather."
Fantastic video! Keep up the good work!
Thank you for explaining why smaller is better in literally the plainest realistic manar possible. I congratulate you for saving my pockets from getting a 6 dof to looking back into a 3dof. You’re truly an amazing specimen lol rock on 🤘
VR + Motion Compensation + quick low lag servos + large surge and sway movements = Amazingly real. Less is not always more with the right gear and tuning. VR and Motion compensation is required if your not going small though.
Well placed bass shakers and a diy "turntable" the rig can sit/rotate on is honestly all that you need to not only give the transient response on a budget but also prevent motion sickness many associate with sim racing (using VR especially). It's a real good question why they don't utilize these systems more for drivers licenses now that manual gearboxes are a thing of the past in modern cars. A bonus is that you can't burn a clutch or brakes (or crash).
Really loving that 80s intro music!
I’ve been saying this for years, since 2010 actually when I first got D-Box. D-Box is the most realistic motion/tactile solution you can have. Your brain is the most important component in any simulator, it will fill in the gaps missing.
Absolutely agree ... Have my D Box since last christmas and can't be any happier. Dont think there a many better solutions out there...
Glad to see a video about this far too common pitfall. Chassis movements are OK, tilting is usually too laggy to simulate g-forces. In the end after trying many systems I went for a GS-Cobra. It pushes your torso and you have to counter it to keep steady, so basically it is a FFB seat., sensations are very familiar.
Good info just in time for my motion rig arriving this week.
I guess you haven't tried yet a 6axis PT-ACTUATOR rig with Surge and TL axis... it will still do these small vibration type motion that D-box give, but will combine larger angles for sustained accelerations... just perfect motion cues, especially combined with SRS motion software 👍
I have never tried out a motion rig, would love it no doubt. However I do have 2 bassshakers attached to my simrig, one underneath my pedals and one on the back of the seat. I'd argue that hey are a great compromise with them being very cheap, not taking up any space and being very informative and immersive when setup right.
Bass shakers are an awesome value add... I think the further up the stack you go the less value for money you get in terms of improved experience.
Great information 👍
I would have liked to hear your thoughts on oversteer simulations too.
Excellent, thanks
Thank you, this video helped a lot.
This is why I’m happy with my nlr v3 motion platform on my p1x rig and it’s turned down to 60% or below on settings
This video felt like an interesting public service announcement from the 80s.
Love that intro music!
Oh a video I 100% agree with you :) cheers.
Maybe some may like these kind of rigs, but I feel they may not represent a true 100% realistic driving feel. But I know it is the fun of that additional motion rig feel along with the force feedback of wheel controllers, and adding in VR gets us more into the game. Not exactly for me, but they do look cool. I do have the FF wheel and VR. thanks for the video.
I purchased a 4250I DBox based simulator a year ago, and it's the best investment i ever made when it comes to gaming. It's expensive as hell, but you get full suspension and tactile road feel, along with just enough Gforce to deliver the best possible immersion.
No motion simulator can match the instant transfer of motion and vibration that one of these systems can deliver.
Agree, if the motion is turned up to much it makes me think about being shaken and I loose concentration, and it's no longer immersive.
Im right there with you. The only time you need big motion is when your doing the Lucus Oil Trucks or Rallying.
You make a good point actually
your whip skills are amazing man. What do you drive??
As sooneone who's been playing on DIY and paid to play on commercial rigs, and had professional drivers play on my DIY rigs, yes, less is better. A more refine motion can give much more feedback that just tossing you around.
Sprouts and baked bean diet, train yourself to pass wind on the rumble strips, ff wheel, and job done. Or I recently viewed a VR centre in China where you sit on a plank suspended by 4 chains while a bloke pushes you around from behind. Probably more effective and cheaper than some of these contraptions. Nice vid Mr Muscle, but out of all the rings you've sampled, which ones the best?
I love how you look "scared" while driving, it's like "omg omg omg omg what am I doing, im going too fast" lmao
That's just my day to day face
@@GamerMuscleVideos perpetually scared 😆👍
@@ACasualRacer I mean, after the year that is 2020, I wouldn't blame him for being perpetually scared lmao
Karts do up to 2.5 G in corners and it's easier to simulate any GT-car with under 1.8 G or close to 1G in the usual supercars. I've tried a dozen motion systems and IMO my GS-5 with G-Belt and Simvibe is the best and the Raceroom 3Motion. Maybe I've just had bad settings with others, but felt always more convincing when the motion was not moving the hole rig (other than TL), but just me or me with the seat. Maybe the pt-actuators or SFX100 with 750 Watts each are a bit quicker than the D-box with 400 something. Last ones felt disconnected and more annoying to me probably due to latency combined with too much movement. Unfortunately no company is copying the 3Motion concept which is undoubtedly the best seat-mover on the market by far since it does what all seat movers do plus hieve with far lower weight.
*Feeling load. Information.* Exactly. That is what you want when you want to drive good.
yeah, feeling suspension load seems to be maybe the most important thing. Getting the pitch and roll from a motion simulator. Especially roll.
I'm interested in throwing away emersion.
Nice video thanks
Thankyou for that informational video. I am now informed.
I'm sorry but you are missinformed about being informed , sorry to inform you of this information.
@@GamerMuscleVideos Dammit.
I have a DOF H2 on the way. Hopefully it's good for racing and flight sims.
Owned a motion base for a number of years now and properly tuned there’s no going back to a stationary setup for me. Motion, VR and a good FFB wheel = consistency, immersion, and faster lap times. That’s my experience anyway.
What's a good value motion base that you would recommend?
I totally agree with this video.
Really interesting vid but I must ask... @3:19 what is on the screen in the background?! Dan Cammish's Halfords Yuasa Honda.. could it be the new BTCC game?!?
That‘s old wisdom in the industry, yet not widely known in the community. Most people are falling for the „exhibition style monster movements“ you mention in the beginning. Tests with real life professional race drivers using VR had been done a few years ago. They had to tell when the motion felt most „real“ for them when doing simracing. Interestingly they all said that very subtle or no motion at all felt the best and they were able to get the best results with that.
Why then is the industry shelling out super expensive extreme motion systems? Because they can sell them! 🤷🏻♂️ The higher the price, the bigger the margin! People with deep pockets often go for the show factor and are happy to report to their friends and business partner exactly what insane amount they have spent on that rig.
For the everyday enthusiast a 1.5“ 5DOF with good software and high fidelity feedback will do the trick and more. There you peak out around 15k$, which is no conservative amount to be sure, but far far away from the craziness that you can find in the „high motion“ market.
This is well put. Most garage band style motion simulators advertise things people can comprehend, which is stroke, speed and DOF's.
But I would submit that increasing stroke length, DOF's and even speed has significant compromises. You are in a simulator and NOT a real car, so what you want is 'accurate recreation' and not "exact replication". Besides exact replication not being attainable at most homes, (concrete screws to hold your chassis past 5G) this would also be a massive health/safety concern. Most people, "think" they want real motion, but what they really want is for the physics engine to accurately communicate data and expect the motion supplier to accurately translate that for all cars, tracks and sim softwares (this is the hardest part). You have start at the fundamental level of signal processing to achieve such a result, but as this video accurately describes, most, what I call garage band motion systems, just take raw G-force data and move the actuators as quickly as possible to achieve position targets, which never works as the change of position targets, or JERK moments, happen quicker than most current controllers, hardware and even software can handle. [speaking from 10 years of track experience and 11 years of sim experience] (could still be wrong here) :-)
@@PeterSosinski Exactly. If people do some research on proprioception, they'll make much better purchasing decisions. You can mount a NLR V3 (low) into a t-slot like a GT-1 Evo, add a 4 or 5-point harness with the vertical belts attached to a simple DIY tensioner, then add the Simrig SR1 actuators for the 4 corners. Add a couple of tactile transducers and after 10-20 hours of consistent use on the right setup, your brain will map all of the cues you have in the rig: DD FFB, seat moving (subtle & quick with the seat belt tensioning), 4-corner motion, and the tactile rumbles/vibrations. You don't need a lot of movement, just sharp, precise movements properly mapped.
"Less is all we have" is already Ken's trademark 😂
LOOK AT YOU!! You might need to Close the Door on that 911 style Sim Rig (In your Intro segment).. It might slow you down.. hahahahah! JK Less is Best, as you say, So that's what I built! Only 3DOF, Only 'Drive' in VR, with the tactile feedback and wind.. I don't know any better. But I take your word for it so Thanks GM!! The one I built has most stuff I care about (Acceleration, Braking, Traction loss, a tiny bit of pitch and roll covered. I didn't want to wait to buy one of those other consumer grade Rigs so I went ahead an jumped in and built it. (Have posted a few vids too) if you want to take a look at my B.S. I am having an absolute blast driving it whenever I can. Love your videos GM!!
I've been designing in my mind a suspension-focused sim rig, but I know nothing about how to create or align the software. My idea starts with a spring setup similar to a real car, with motors that "jab" at the springs to simulate road feel, and they wouldn't have more than 4 inches of movement at the most.
Hi, have you tried Yaw 2 VR motion simulator before? Wish to know what do you think about it. Thanks!
I'm trying to figure out how to get my SFX-100 to simulate g-forces only from turning accelerating and braking, based on my setup .... maybe feeling some effects that show my setup sucks but that's it. -edit- ok based on your experience, i might be wrong.
Does a proper tuned motion rig help you improve your lap times?
Esta muy bonito ese simulador de movimiento al momento de jugar se siente como si estuviera manejando un vehículo en la realidad de dónde son ustedes..
So would you recommend one that only moves your seat, not the wheel or pedals? I felt like that would kill immersion but the ones that move everything are so much more expensive. What do you think?
Love the 80s vibe
Having said all of this - what do you think about DOF reality P3?
2:49 did you almost brake that DD wheel lol it looks like it wasn't tight enough and drops as you turn. i know i spot such silly things
Last week i tried for the first time the combo motion simulator and VR. I almost threw up. So for me at least, or as Mies Van der Rohe said, less is more!
u gotta try the nlrv3 seatmover with vr... worked most for me....
Hi Dave, have you ever test the Actoracer?
I never tried a simulator like this myself, but I always thought it looks more natural with less movement. Some of the rigs Ive seen seem to throw you around in there. Instant motion sickness.
Since we built the system shown during your opening sequence, here are some additional thoughts! First: It's entirely possible to build big-motion platforms with lots of latency, and those systems can 'poison the well' for those of us who do the job correctly. But it *is* possible to do the job right, with the right hardware, sufficient power, and the right motion cueing. To see what we mean by that, check out a video of a direct, 1:1 comparison of the same accelerometer showing g-loading in a real race car vs. our 401cr platform:
czcams.com/video/hzAIVzAMNg0/video.html
Yes, our systems have a lot of motion. Yes, systems with a lot of motion can suck if underpowered or even if they have great hardware set up incorrectly (or set up to impress at a show rather than for the best driving feedback). But done right, they can provide true acceleration feedback you can use to drive the car better, rather than just moving your seat relative to your steering wheel and pedals (!!!?!?). We design our hardware like this because we race in real life, and because it works.
Also check out our page on continuous rotation and why it matters:
www.force-dynamics.com/why-cr
Happy to answer any other questions!
-David / Force Dynamics
Your message got filtered due to the link , should show now 👍
I quite liked the force dynamic rig but personally I much prefer rigs that move less / just the simplicity and practicality that comes from more minimal solutions.
Obvously any person looking to buy a rig for training or commercial use should try a bunch out before they buy and make there own mind up.
👍🏻 all motion systems have extensive tuning menu’s and properly tuned for each individual sim they add so much immersion and consistency especially in a long race season. I love mine and couldn’t go back to sim racing without it! I can catch and control slides better. I can feel the bumps, the change of camber, braking on the limit better etc etc. Nothing compares except real life it’s self.
Everything that is wrong with motion sim rigs. Sorry the worst of the lot!!!
the demo you provide about constant turning and G force comparaison are amazing . Nobody provide such real comparaison to prove efficiency of there system ! i love your good sim !
There was a really good cameraman
Have you tried the GS-5 g-seat yet? You mentioned in this video that you haven't been all that impressed with g-seats to-date, but I haven't seen you publish a video about the GS-5, and it seems like one of the better commercial g-seat options.
I have a GS5 seat and it works great simulating g forces...! What a great product..!
6DOF is best but the software is critical, has to be coded to the game properly in order for professional drivers to utilise it. MOTUM Simulation MP6 is best I've tried and like you Mr. Muscle, I've tried a fair few! You need to try one ;) Get ye sen down to Melbourne, Australia for a go. For Grand Prix wknd maybe?
Lol I'd love to visit au at some point who knows it might fix my sleep issues 🤣☕.
man 0.16 is epic!!!
How was the experience on the force dynamics?
"suspension focused motion" is key.
With all your testing, can you give us 3 "less is more" very budget motion rig recommendations?
Sfx100
I was waiting for this all the vid too :) u'r experimented ? alright ! but tell me how to spend my money lmao
I would say DofReality is a great budget rig.
are these good for reducing moobs, or just make you more aware of them?
What do you recommend? What is a good setup that's not just a crazy price?
After many years of building and running motion sims, with and without G belt and pressure paddles/pads, allot of motion is not required for race cars, but can help in other simulations like aircraft and roller coasters etc.
I just got an SFX-100 and I'm finding myself much more comfortable & fast at 70% travel than 100% even after motion compensation.
Even on top of less travel: Less effect & less smoothing feels better, cranking everything up is fun for a couple of laps but becomes a chore.
I use the motion for suspension/traction loss & haptics for everything else.
Im a newbie. Im wondering what do you mean by haptics? Im planning to buy sfx100 too
@@Jason-tk8wm Bass shakers, I have 3 in the seat (left/rear/right) and 2 on the pedals. These use soundwaves to give feedback for things like wheel slip, TC/ABS, Gear change, etc. It's vibration, not motion basically.
I'd get the haptics first, they add tons for a lot less money and time than building SFX-100.
so which motion systems are then recommended?
completley agree, not to mentions its really a distraction making you a less good driver.
Can you please advise, how to buy good sims at a good price point, for a be gaming arcade.
Thanks & Regards.
Do you have a list of different minimal motion rigs that you recommend ?
Most important thing not being covered..
What was the Vasaro direct drive base?
Which rig do you find most immersive then?
Can you give some examples of suspension-focused minimal motion systems?
think of rigs that use either 'butt-kickers' or D-BOX for their tactile feedback vs systems like the ones that were shown towards the beginning of the video!
I built mine with an anvil hanging over the seat so whenever I crash it unlatches and crushes my skull and abdomen instantly killing me for added realism.
The best platform outside of a professional setting is the G Force Factory 6DOF platform. It’s much faster than D-BOX, which is just a toy in comparison.
What about the H3 DOF?
@@TheLeblancGroup i have a dofreality h3 and love it in Compilation With vr. But i Never tried another Motion rig. I think small roadtextures and bumbs are in Otter Rigs With acctuators better. But for the Price it’s a Good Motion rig. And for My Taste to less Motion is less fun and immersion.
So what motion rigs do you recommend?
I have tried a few motion rigs and they do nothing for making me feel more connected to the driving, I just found it annoying and I think I am faster without the motion.
You are in good company, see my comment above 🙂 nothing to worry about.
Properly tuned and there’s nothing that comes closer to giving you the feeling of the forces you feel in a real life car. Iv owned a motion base for a number of years now and combined with VR I wouldn’t go back to sim racing without it. Motion, a good FFB wheel and VR= immersion, consistency, depth perception and faster lap times. That’s my experience anyway.
@@tradesman1000 And more power to you when that does it for you! Me, I can’t even bear being on VR longer than 10 minutes, and those 10 are pure torture. Yes, I‘ve tried multiple products. Doesn’t work for me. So there’s undoubtedly an individual factor. Still, the rollercoaster-style show motion rigs out there are for one thing only: Show. Not immersion, not consistency, not faster times. Subtle goes a long way in motion. As you say: Properly dialed in.
@@MajorWolf72 agreed, 👍🏻 it took me a number of months to dial it in. Less is more. Too much and you feel like your inside a washing machine! 😁 i don’t enjoy the experience as much on my triples as I do in VR. When you can’t see yourself moving around it then feels like G forces.
@@tradesman1000 good point. on a good motion system you don't want to get off after continuous laps, and when after 20+ laps it should feel like its almost not there at all. You should ONLY notice a motion system, after you TURN IT OFF, after you've ran it and forgot about it. That's usually a good indicator. Many non-motion, non-car enthusiasts/companies out there just making expensive torture toys don't have genuine signal reproduction.
In my experience (13 years racing cars, 12 years or so in sims) this is spot-on GM. I've driven maybe a dozen motion systems and less is almost always better, unless you are simulating off-road or rally conditions (which should still be limited to vehicle dynamics, there is just more of it).
What do u recommend as the best set up? Was looking at the DOF H3?
I'd be terrified of those crazy rigs ripping up my floors. They'd be great for flightsims though?
Not a single video of you crashing the car? Did you use a body double for these?
The bigger question is: Locked to horizon or locked to the car, in the view settings?
Horizon for non VR.
I like lock to horizon in general , I think it's unrealistic but I find it way less fatiguing as less of the image is moving
@@GamerMuscleVideos For the NLR V3 you need to lock to car in VR otherwise motion compensation doesn't work correctly.
Great info and fully agree, but that intro music reminds me of a urinal
wow how cool
Little known fact... scientists believe there is actually a perfect motion:hair ratio, although they have yet to pinpoint it. Work at CERN continues.
As the owner of the FD 301 you are driving in this video (and 10 more like it), i have a couple of comments. Yes, there is no doubt that sitting absolutely still, and concentrating on driving only will probably make you faster, but real drivers don't have that luxury. And, you are absolutely right about setup. This particular machine can be setup to give you exactly what you want in any given situation, from chassis only movement, to full G-force, which is a blast, especially in VR. Again, it's all about use case, personal preference, and setup. If you want the ultimate customizable machine, to give you a blast, wether it's driving, flying, or playing GTA, I can't recommend it enough. czcams.com/video/rEKOwFr8smg/video.html&t
After using lots of large motion rigs , I don't find tilting back to be an adequate representation of acceleration as it always feels more like being rotated rather than being pushed into a seat from getting on the gas. For me personally the only thing analogous to acceleration/ braking are systems that apply pressure such as G seats and tension belts.
Obviously an end user can set up a rig how they want to and a larger motion rig will accommodate a wider number of use cases. That said I found the "basic" corner actuators to provide me with the most compelling and least immersion braking motion.
I'm sure there are wide ranging opinions on motion rigs and what people want and need for specific use cases.
Full G-Force!! Yeah couldn't take anything you said serious after that.
If less motion is better, what kind of motion is best? Yaw? Pitch, surge, roll? Is there a hierarchy of motion in generating a realistic sensation? Thanks, great vid.
In my opinion, it‘s not easy to answer that question. But with a 2DOF seat for pitch and roll, you can cover most of all simulations types in a very good way.
I'm getting motion sickness just from watching that red VR Rig...
Any thoughts on the DOF H3? I am really thinking of getting it but if it has latency issues that break immersion or doesnt bring more immersion in other ways, I wouldnt buy it. It's a $2k consumer rig.
It‘s okay for the money. Do you drive only or do you like also simfly? Because if you like both, then i would recommend the new yaw2 before the H3.