LIES AND COPE! Rings of power is NOT Tolkien
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- čas přidán 27. 07. 2022
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If I want Tolkien, I'll get Tolkien. If I wanted current-day US politics, I'd get a lobotomy.
. If I wanted current-day US politics, I'd get a lobotomy. - HAHAH
If I want current day politics, I just watch Lord of the Rings videos on Nerdrotics, Critical Drinker, Mauler, and Shads channel here.
Instead of tolkien, u get token
Leftist politics specifically. And if you think its just in America, you're not paying attention.
@@hearthseeker2425 the best part of garbage shows coming out is the criticism :)
Rings of Power can’t accept the fact that they’ve already been defeated by the fans before this series has even begun. Lol
Yup, will be glorious once this piece of hot dog crap called fan fiction of power gets cancelled
That’s what happens when people who are used to dealing with Harry Potter fans try to pick a fight with people who actually read.
@@NathanCassidy721 or care about the lore. yes.
rings of power isnt an enitity
Their ego can not handle the fact that the ignorant peasents whitout a university degree get to have an opinion
Imagine if Rosa parks said ”I’m the first black female to refuse to get off a buss” or Martin Luther king “I’m the first black man to have a dream”, the narcissism is rampant.
Maybe she wishes she were Queen Latifah. To be fair, I wouldn't blame her.
There have been plenty of movies with inspiring black female leads, including curvaceous ones, many of them specifically dealing with race relations and racism in modern America. But somehow that's not good enough, the fantasy genre has to be corrected. Well ok, how about finding and adapting any of the fantasy fiction that has explicitly included characters of darker skin colors and/or been based on African mythology? No, instead they single out Tolkien's work as the root of the genre and presume that if they can "correct" it, it will symbolically cleanse the wider genre.
if everyone told you all the time you're special you'd end up like that as well
Imagine they made a movie about Rosa parks and she was played by a white woman, and they added a bunch of extra characters that weren't there. That's pretty much rings of power.
@@hado33_ that movie about the African amazons should come out with white warrior women as being the strongest and most virtuous out of all the other characters, otherwise that story will be racist
@@roguewasbanned4746 oh but that would be racist ;p
The more I learn about Rings of Power, the more it feels like Tolkien fan fiction by people who aren't fans.
Gee I wonder why! 😆
Anti-fan Fiction. The fiction being their warped view of reality.
"Fan fiction by people who aren't fans."
I'm feeling that a lot about many things these days.
Hatefiction then.
@Adam James why, cause they've both got a dragon slaying? They're two entirely different stories with vastly different characters mate.
"I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history - true or feigned- with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author."
-JRR Tolkien
That’s nice. Now where does the rings of power contradict that?
@@Sichlittby the writers using allegory to bring modern politics into a middle earth setting.
@@Sichlitt Stop trying to defend this absolute mess
@@Sichlitt tell me you’re a shill without saying so outright. You nailed it. Show your folks: you’ve got an accomplishment under your belt.
@@ReelJV cry more. Does it sting to no longer have hegemonic control over all ideology in media?
I just realized that if you fuse Nathan and Oz you get Shad.
You get a pepperoni for discovering this
Both in looks and personality
Bruh.
Fuuuuuuusion HAAAAAAAAAH!!!
Damn. I totally see it.
"All shall love me and despair." Seems to be Tolkienesque inspiration for this series, they got the despair part right.
The paid shills would absolutely love it
i can totally hear Bezos saying that...
"Galadriel? Why are you squatting like that? What is that odd shadow? Oh dear..." -Bilbo Blackins
Sounds like Google's new slogan, now that they've discarded "Don't Be Evil" --
_"All shall love me and despair."_
Both Galadriel and Elrond have been severely downgraded. Their roles have been flip-flopped but Galadriel has little of Elrond’s sophistication or eloquence and Elrond has little of Galadriel’s wisdom or charisma. They both seem to have received most of each other’s negative aspects but few of each other’s positive aspects, other than Galadriel seems to have retained a certain amount of Elrond’s intelligence.
Galadriel is a trainwreck. Especially in combination with her love interest Hallbrand(Yes they killed her husband and daughter), who later in the show is whipered to be a Sauron skin change.
@@christianefiorito3204 Oof! That’s bad, but hardly surprising.
@@christianefiorito3204 Whoa, that's powerful story element; too bad Tolkien never mentioned that.
i really dont like the elrond actor. didnt like him in got either.
The hilarious thing is that their efforts at "diversity" are tired and lazy. How is making a heavy-set black woman a gospel singer edgy or innovative? Or making all the female characters essentially men? Can't strong women, like maybe Galadriel, command respect by being you know, women?
That would require Amazon to hire someone who thinks women can command respect though 😂.
But in all seriousness, the problem with completely eliminating men as heroes, be they protagonists or side characters, is that you often need someone to fulfil the masculine roles. That someone has to now be a woman. Coupled with their inability to see any strength in being feminine, it leads to this.
Someone with less of a complex would be able to write strong feminine women who are also good characters and (because let's be real we all have seen what their "strong women" look like) strong masculine women who are also good characters. But as it is, they just shouldn't be writing women. At all.
Which is not to say that they should be writing men instead...
I mean Galadriel was called Man-maiden by Tolkien, he said she had a deep voice, competed against men in sports, and called her an Amazon. History of Middle Earth describes all of this. So uh, Tolkien did that.
@@hearthseeker2425 nope
@@hearthseeker2425 no point in bothering with these people, they haven’t read the source material.
@@hearthseeker2425 That's not the problematic part. The problem is that Galadriel was always showsn as being powerful, but graceful. Authoritative but elegant. Amazon threw that out the window and went for "Woman must be harder than man.".
I've recently watched "The Wire", great show, based in Baltimore in the early 2000s. Note how the population of that city is like 65% African American, making the casting understandably not very white, and due to the logic of location the show is very good without feeling forced, weird how that works
Not too long ago I watched _The Boy who Harnessed the Wind_ which takes place in Malawi. All the characters are of course black Africans, and I identified with the protagonists despite not looking like them. Weird how that works.
@@charlesstanford1310 Thanks for the recommendation.
Yeah, it's a bit like saying no-one who's not Japanese can enjoy Kurosawa's films because they can't identify with the characters...
The Harder They Fall is one if my new favorites. I'm mixed, no one ever looks like me, but I've known, even as a little child, that it doesn't matter the actor's race, it's the story. Am I lost to reality and being carried along a fantastic journey? Are there patterns I can follow or shun? What can I learn about myself in whatever hypothetical setting I have given myself to? My stories don't tell me who I am, they invite me to discover that for myself.
In the early 90s, there was another police procedural set in Baltimore. The lead character was a black detective. He was a deep, fully formed character who acted like a human being and not some caricature.
I miss the days when movies and shows had great characters involved in actual stories.
I love how Oz is the audience's insert character so that he can get Shad to break down his points into digestible pieces for us!
I'm Asian and I was quite capable of enjoying the Lord of the Rings movies without being "represented". In fact, I connected quite well with Samwise Gamgee.
He was the true hero.
True
I love many Asian movies taking place in Asian stories and Asian histocal contexts... I would be quite annoyed if they place a bunch of white guys in those settings and pretended they where like ordinary midieval Chinese people. Which is what they keep doing to European fantasy and history. They need to stop. History and fantasy is seperate from today. Creators of shows are destroying one show after another with their pandering.
Make the people you put in the series or movie fit the story and the rules of the universe. Its that simple.
If I may...Allegory is very common on medieval traditions and writings. It can be found on many works such as Dante's and Christine de Pizan's, they loved to present you with people and places and objects that represented other ideas, values or even something that should be avoided and despised.
Tolkien knew very well this kind of literature, but didn't like to use allegory. In his opinion the reader was the one who could find new meanings and connection, not the writer
That’s literally what the writers said themselves.
@@Sichlitt Indeed the showrunners have been saying good stuff BUT a lot of people around like producers, actors and the "Tolkien expert" said so much BS so far.
He said as much in his letters. Here's a direct quote:
“I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history - true or feigned- with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.”
I don't know about anyone else, but allegory was the exact intent Dante had. He legit put a contemporary guy he knew (and had face-to-face spoken to) in hecking Hell and handed the story to the guy with NO shame whatsoever lol.
excellent
Yeah. One actor already confirmed this, saying that will modernized Tolkien work to this "new" era!
Then thats not Tolkien at all
So in other words, what they’re making isn’t going to be Tolkien at all. That tracks.
Giving me Scar's speech to the pride/hyenas vibes.
It’s going to be what every other reimagined tv show is. Their own thing with someone else’s work name slapped onto it for views.
My dad is the biggest Tolkien nerd and he's not even interested in watching rings of power.
Good
The healthiest attitude, IMO. Why should we be concerned with the novelties that Bezos and company spit in our faces? We have centuries of works to enjoy. Can this current and passing thing even attempt to diminish them? I believe not, they are too great, they stand too tall, IMO
Tolkien bless your father.
I wish the fans weren't.
Can't wait for the series to come out. Because we will have so many uploads from Knights Watch.
Meme culture thrives on the crimes of the chromatic horde
when the knights watch becomes a pack of wolfs tripping and ripping a series! hilarious! 🐺
It’s gonna be a good couple of weeks watching Knights Watch and Disparu tear this series apart episode by episode (rightfully so).
After Woke of the Rings, Mass Effect should be coming, and that’s even more content because I think Paramount (Amazon?) is producing that.
We shouldn't tho. They shouldn't give this any attention
Watching it ensures Rings of Power's success.
Honestly? This show doesn't even deserve a hate-watch. It deserves nothing. It's not LotR. It's not Tolkien. It's pure garbage and any second of time spent thinking about it is wasted. Screw this, move on and act like this doesn't exist. Because that's all this deserves.
Gonna get this in TPB+++ and mock-watch with my buddies!
Exactly. People bitch and moan about all these crappy movies and shows, but then they still give them views and wonder why they still get made... BECAUSE YOU'RE GIVING THEM VIEWS. Stop it. When you view and interact with content -- whether you actually "like" it or not --- you're essentially "voting" for it in the marketplace, which increases "demand," which leads to more supply. So if you don't want this crap, THEN DON'T VOTE FOR IT BY VIEWING IT. Why is this so hard to understand?
@@Sam-lm8gi must the flouride in the water and lead in the air
@@Sam-lm8gi That isn't true, Netflix's awful Resident Evil was a huge flop, as was live action Cowboy Bebop. If people aren't warned they'll stumble into these things and give them support. Right now the best thing to do is warn people so they don't watch the premiere, then when the show releases go to reviews of episodes rather than actually watching them. If, by some miracle, it was actually good, then go support it, but judging from the interviews and trailers this show will be awful. The best arguments against bad entertainment are Mockery and Criticism. Apathy will set in on its own, and it will vanish ignominiously as it deserves.
That's what I keep saying even bad publicity is good publicity to them they don't care. To hurt them ignore this series and focus instead on the books.
I wouldn't care about the diversity in the cast if they weren't already using it as a kind of shield. Whenever a show touts its diverse cast, it's a warning sign that the show is going to be bad and they're going to use that diverse cast to deflect valid criticism of the show by saying "y'all just don't like it cuz you guys are racist!" It really doesn't bother me that there are black dwarves, elves, and hobbits, as long as the story they tell with the characters is good. But the way they're talking about all their diversity is a warning sign that the show doesn't have anything else to offer.
Except the main thing everyone is criticising is the diverse cast. It isn’t a shield, it’s literally what everyone is complaining about.
@@Sichlitt because the showrunners have made it one of their main selling points. So yes, if they focus of diversity more than the writing we should all be worried. Diversity by itself does not mean better by default.
@@Sichlitt It's a problem because you can tell they're going to focus on their diversity instead of just telling a good story
@@Sichlitt When you get away from meritocracy and are selecting to have a gender, ethnic or any form of visual diversity, which is not based on skills, character, intrinsic value to the organization, that is inherently discriminatory.
@@donnmckee4973 no, that’s just called how the film industry works. Aragorn was only allowed to be caucasian in the Peter Jackson trilogy. It’s simply the artistic vision of the creators. Or was peter jackson racist?
An Allegory is specific, that is the most prominent difference. An Author putting in an allegory inside his work, takes a very specific item that is usually relevant to his time.
Themes are timeless, good vs evil is the best example. They can encompass so many different things.
At this point "Diggy diggy hole" by Wind Rose has more Tolkien vibes than this show
Love that song
@@rockinHurley777 Same, absolute masterpiece
Lmao
I have to plug Clamavi De Produndis.
"by wind rose"
I think you mean by the yogscast
As much of a disaster that Wheel of Time was, dear god, did it give me a lot of laughs.
Can't wait for this disaster to come out so I can hear Shad spitting fire
The best woke entertainment is mocked, ranted and roasted.
He, very true. I really enjoy those roasting videos. I have even saved all the Kenobi roasts in order to absolutely enjoy them, when I one day watch that show. Halo roasts where wonderful
Wheel of Time?
Oh right. You mean Oprah's halcyon induced fever dream.
Then Rings Of Power has succeeded.
I’ve said for a while and in multiple videos:
They picked a fight with the wrong fandom.
Because this fandom existed before the term existed and because they read books, they aren’t as stupid as other fandoms.
Tolkien fandom is the most loyal fanbase in literature, these guys are learning the hard way lol
Great points lol.
@@reek4062 shill harder
@@reek4062 Are you talking about yourself?
Because you're argument doesn't apply to anybody who is criticizing this universally hated show. Because the book part of the fandom hates this about as much as the movie fandom.
Also, "incel" doesn't apply to the people you think it does.
I'm convinced she has 10 minutes of screen time over the whole season. This is really reminiscent of Force Awakens when the actresses playing Phasma and Maz were hyping their characters up and making them seem like they are going to be both narratively and culturally significant but ended up having no bearing on anything and being completely wasted and disposable.
Looks at china
Phasma was a case of the creators trying to make a new boba fett, not realizing that boba fett's popularity was an accident.
I mean, a character who barely has any dialogue and only appears for a very short time before dying anticlimactically, but got popular simply because people thought he was cool?
Phasma wasn't the Boba Fett of the sequel trilogy, the stormtrooper who shouted "TRAITOR!" and fought Finn was.
The fan base will punish them for their insolence, they will pay the price for this transgression against good writing and goodness in general.
The fan base can only punish them by not watching. Relevance is all these story tormentors need.
@@SoundEngraver Exactly. Including not hate-watching.
I'm a huge fan of The Last of Us, so when we saw leaks from the vandalized mess that is The Last of Us 2, I just refused to interact with it. Many fans did. Instead, we chose Ghost of Tsushima, which is actually good; and each week, I could see copies of TLOU2 rotting on store shelves while the store kept selling out of GoT.
How DARE you notice "The Rings of Power" being politicized!? There is absolutely no political overtones in this series! Also, it's GROUNDBEAKING and better than the source material for its beautiful political messages!
@Adam James There's a difference between the politics of Numenor and the politics of our world in current year. Purposely drawing parallels between them is exactly what Tolkien wouldn't do.
@@Dizzifying1 that is the exact kind of allegory Tolkien said he despised. Draw your own likenesses where you can sure, but recognize that Tolkien wrote his own unique story.
@Adam James How does anybody with half of a brain read the word "politicization" and think "Well duh of course the fictional nations will have politics!"? Why would anybody be worried about that? What we ARE worried about is the creators making shallow creative decisions so they can check modern-day political checkboxes, because shows that do that age like milk.
6:11
Okay, it's time for me to assume the literature teacher role!
A "Theme" is the central message a story is trying to communicate. These are NOT, as many people commonly seem to think, one-or-three word motifs such as "Good and Evil" or "Resurrection" or "True Love." I always teach my students that, just as we would communicate our complete thoughts to another person using a sentence, the theme of a story has to be a complete sentence. So, for instance, one of the themes of "The Lord of the Rings," could be stated as, "Important changes to the world are not made solely by the most powerful individuals, but can be enacted through the seemingly inconsequential actions of the seemingly most insignificant."
An allegory is a story that uses direct analogies in order to convey a hidden message that is usually either moral or political. For instance, in "Animal Farm," certain pig characters are directly tied to the political figures of Stalin, Trotsky, etc. We also find allegories in the scriptures, such as (and I know Shad will know about this one) the Allegory of the Wild and Tame olive trees, which reference direct political and historical events that took place in Israel.
When Tolkien was saying his work was not allegorical, he was stating that his story was not commenting on concurrent political events. For instance, The One Ring, was not the nuclear bomb. Sauron was not a direct analogy to Hitler, though one could see characteristics of his which were similar. Frodo Baggins was not a representation of England, now was Gandalf a representation of Winston Churchill. Tolkien's work certainly has themes, or messages, that it wants to convey, but those messages are not a purely political one with characters symbolizing direct historical events or figures.
This is excellent, thanks!
20:19 Agreed. In LOTR, I related most to Boromir, Faramir and Samwise and I'm not white, and it shouldn't matter.
Exactly! The fact that people think you have to look like someone to relate to or feel empathy for them is racist!
Boromir was my favourite too, what a heroic death scene he got.
Another notorious example of allegory is Aslan in The Chronicles of Narnia, who is an intentional allegory for Jesus. Tolkien didn't want to make Aragon (or Gandalf or Frodo) a Jesus, but rather have them inhabit Christlike traits.
That's how I've always explain it. It's like if you you split jesus into three parts.
Aragorn, The King. Gandalf, The Divine, Frodo, the passion. Suffering so that others don't have to.
@@jamesfitzgerald1684 I think the hobbit characters were meant to be a stand in for Tolkien and his friends from the war. Very ordinary rural Englishmen forced into the worst hell on earth they'd ever known by that time
@@filmandfirearms They can have multiple meanings. That is certainly true as well.
But Frodo carrying the ring to mordor is blatant symbolism for Christ carrying the cross.
@@jamesfitzgerald1684 Eh. I dunno. If it wasn't for Sam and Golum. The ring would have fallen into Saurons hands. I don't see how that could be compared to Christ carrying the cross.
It's more an example of being selfless or doing something very hard because your are the one who can do it.
@@ironhelix306 The ring symbolizes sin and is the Achille‘s heel of the enemy. Likewise, Christ as the sinless Son of God being killed like a sinner was the Achille‘s heel that defeated the devil.
Christ had help carrying the cross, from Simon of Cyrene.
I love how the people making this could not help but be honest in the end. Totally destroying their previous lies, as well as those of all their shills.
"The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its own. I don't think it gave life to the orcs, it only ruined them and twisted them..." - J.R.R. Tolkien
Glad you guys finally figured out the actual quote instead of corrupting what he originally said lmao
@@Sichlitt that is a distillation of the meaning of that quote and I think you know it. it is saying the same exact thing. and its much easier to understand out of context but go ahead I guess, take those "wins" wherever you can.
Hmmm...that quote....guess he forgot about his dragons...lol
@@Stratocumulus25 the dragons are in form a mockery of the great eagles tho
@@zatchbell5678 Most likely. Though the dragons didn't start out being winged creatures. Also Tolkien seemed to forget about not being able to create something new w/o the Flame Imperishable...see Yavanna creating the Two Trees for example...though I think that he might have been thinking along the lines that the Ainur could "pinch off" a portion of themselves/essence/power when creating great works like the Two Trees or in Melkor's example; the dragons. Sauron & his Ring is another, lesser example of this ability in action.
Tree Beard is actually based off of his friend C.S. Lewis, but as a joke. Tolkien often thought C.S. Lewis would often talk about very boring things in a very slow way. C.S. Lewis commented to Tolkien: 'That is so me! Fantastic.' a heavily paraphrased quote from C.S. Lewis.
And ( a very tenacious link), Tree Beard was voiced by John Rhys-Davis in the Jackson films, and C S Lewis was played by Anthony Hopkins in the film Shadowlands. Both are Welsh born and C S Lewis was Irish born! Now that's diversity ;)
Shad I would recommend you watch the council of the ring youtube channel as he has a series dedicated to pointing out all the lore inaccuracies in the rings of power trailers, posters, interviews and articles on it.
I would add, watch the most recent CZcams video from Nerd Cookies too. Her RANT video is eloquent and calm in delivery and points out the possible deception Amazon has practiced in launching this fiasco.
This is "their Tolkien" has the same air as the phrase "my truth". As in, they don't care what is factually correct, this is what it is to them and how dare anyone tell them they're wrong for thinking that way.
That is truly reflective of the time and world we live in. Which is what "their Tolkien" would want.
I thought Tolkien didn't care for domination by the author as everyone is saying here. If the reader is the one who is supposed to interpret the story then the phrase "my Tolkien" is perfectly fine because it's what they got out of it
@@Vegan_GooseThe difference is, that Tolkien did not intend for people to make their own stories with his name attached to them based on their interpretation of his work, and act like their interpretation is the correct one. especially when it contradicts his own writings.
Anyone is allowed to interpret whatever they want, but that does not give them the right to tout it as the actual truth of what Tolkien was writing.
@@austinschmidt8054 no but they do have the right to re interpret it and make it their own. You don't have to like their interpretation but Tolkien has no right to tell you you can't. No one does. You don't need to like it but getting all moral about it is exactly what you guys are complaining they're doing
This will never ruin the LOTR Trilogy just finished the extended editions with my brother in law and they are amazing.
Or the books
Amazon will never ruin the LOTR trilogy because the Peter Jackson movies already did that.
@@deriznohappehquite bait
My point is
Where are the bearded female dwarves?
Tolkien is Crystal Clear when he wrote that you would have troubles separating a male to a female dwarf
Let’s take an African legend about Africans…pump it up with white, Asian and Indian actors playing key story roles…next let’s take the themes about Africans and change them to be more accessible to everyone else except Africans. Wipe the history, rewrite the themes, re-cast the story about Africa to include people other than Africans.
People would lose their damn minds and rightly so. The different cultures are allowed to have their own legends, their own culture centric stories. AS THEY WERE INITIALLY CONCEIVED.
It’s just because a white guy wrote the story that they think it’s fair game.
The only reason they’re targeting Tolkien is because they lack the creativity to make their own IP. They need to latch on to other success to have a hope of succeeding. But in the process they completely change its identity which will piss people off…because THEY LIED.
They're treating Tolkien's work like the fantasy genre in general, and they're acting like it's still the 1970s and they're the first people to get the idea of injecting black power into it.
@@charlesstanford1310 If you ask me, Democrats haven't changed their policies since the 1860s, they've just learned that they need to hide it behind nicer language. Case in point, I've seen leftists talk about black people like they're fucking dogs, not in an openly degrading way, but more in a paternalistic way, just like most slave masters viewed their slaves
"Let’s take an African legend about Africans…pump it up with white, Asian and Indian actors playing key story roles…next let’s take the themes about Africans and change them to be more accessible to everyone else except Africans. Wipe the history, rewrite the themes, re-cast the story about Africa to include people other than Africans. "
The irony is that if the person trying to do this had an iota of history, they'd realize you could do it without mangling history. Have it set in East Africa sometime between the 1500s and now. The Indian Ocean had washed Asians, Indians, and so forth into African Ports for centuries and Africans to Indian and Arabian ports, and after the Portuguese you could add "white" people to it.
Now dig around for an appropriate legend to set in the period or "re-imagine", and Viola. Historically accurate diversity in an African Legend, or at least some variation of it.
But can these clowns ever do that?
@@vandeheyeric I would _love_ to see something like that.
Screw that I don't want Hollywood touching our stuff I'm only gonna trust indie studios with our stuff.
To finish the allegory conversation, that both Oz and Shad were conflating with theme, metaphor, and so on to some extent. I think what Oz was trying to get at, regardless of intentions, all writers are influenced by the world around them, what they've studied, read, been told, upbringing, role models, family relations, relationships, and so on. That influence then, whether consciously or subconsciously, is reflected in the writers works and words. A writer's work is a direct or indirect reflection of their loved experiences.
Which is probably why writers today are so shite because most don't have any significant lived experiences. They can't even be ambiguous with their writings. Meaning, everything is so "on the nose" that you can smell all the crap that's been shoveled into their mouth
I see an Oz scholar in the making here.
Yep but Tolkien makes a clear difference between Allegory and Applicability, the former is the dominion of the authornover the reader, where the reader has no other choice than to realize the parallels with real life, the other is much nuanced and flexible where the reader can chose to see such character or event as one from real life but the author hasnt wrote in a way that is so obvious that thats the only way to be seen.
CS Lewis used allegory, Aslan was a representation of Jesus, Tolkien did not used allegory, someone can see Sauron as Hitler but most chose not because Tolkien never wrote it to be an allegory.
I think that difference is small and a detail but just shows how Tolkien was a master of his craft, as a writer its really hard to scape allegory, but when you can deliver a story of the scale Tolkien did without it, you get something that is TIMELESS.
So far we've watched Star Wars morph into the Snoring Wars,
The Wheel of Time, morph into The Waste of Time.
Now its the turn for the Lord of the Rings. What will it be? The Unbinary of the Rings? Woke of the Rings?
Dr who and star trek too
And the mcu
Failo with Master Cheeks
Hmm 1, 3 and 7 and 9 rings. Nope, no binary rings here.
@@jackr2287 at this point i would not be supriesed if they add some new ones.
You never know. And then like thanos galadriel would wear 5 at once.
I don't think that the haradrim were actually black, just generally darker skinned. Middle-eastern, not african
near Harad is MENA. Far Harad would be black.
@@deriznohappehquite oke, thanks
Yep Tolkien made no mention of black people. We don't exist in Arda and thats fine.
@@deriznohappehquite thats not true Far Harad is land of Half trolls not humans.
@@admirekashiri6651 Some men from Far Harad travelled north at the time of the War of the Ring, and fought on the side of Sauron at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. These warriors were described as black men with white eyes and red tongues like half-trolls.
I have to say, watching Nathan express so much with his expressions is just as fun as listening to all the commentary. Nathan is a Wizard with that gaze.
Seems like a lot of comments agree, we're all just waiting for all the videos that will tear amazon rings apart.
So in some of Tolkien's later letters he discusses the fact that allegory can be found in his work and he unfortunately let it slip through. But he was trying really hard not to make an allegorical story. His letters are a great thing to read to hear from the man about him and his world
I used to go to a pub where a hobbit used to drink, this was also in a shire, also had a party tree, and people used to live in holes in the ground, and tolkien lived in the area for about a year.
There are so many woke franchises that I once greatly enjoyed before this modern age of Hollywood ruin; Star Wars, Star Trek, Terminator, James Bond, Lord of the Rings... I've tried watching them, but as soon as shoe-horned feminism, gender identity or diversity appears, I am immediately withdrawn from the story and just as quickly stop watching altogether. I instead find myself greatly enjoying various CZcamsr analysis of what went wrong, with the Knight's Watch being one of my favorites. Many thanks for your efforts, they are highly entertaining and confirm my instinctive reaction to today's woke Hollywood ruin!
I'm sorry but what world do you live in where Star Trek wasn't "woke" before modern times. Roddenberry was pushing anti-capitalist utopian space communism before it was cool. And have you watched the stories they covered? Wars, plagues, racism, exploitation, coercive control, brainwashing, gender norms, etc. Drumhead is literally an allegory for the McCarthy trials.
I mainly stopped watching any Hollywood franchises after The Force Awakens massively underdelivered. Back then, I felt the story was crap, but I didn't know there was a hidden political agenda to it. It goes to show that even if you're apolitical it will still affect you because it discards the spirit of the work. Fortunately, there's a lot of other media that has not been tainted, such as East Asian stuff, that still show people with believable struggles and motivations in universes that stand by themselves.
Agreed! I do the same as well!
Movies have been more and more harvested into pro-Revolutionary psychological warfare, at least since the 1960s.
We're not doing A, but A is evident in our other media advertisements...
They can't please everyone and they're made to look a fool.
It is just a blood damn shame they did this (again) with Tolkien's work.
Lawrence Makoare was the guy who played Lurtz (the uruk hai commander, one of the strongest characters in the original movies) . But this hypocrite of an actress seem to ignore him completely cause he played a villain & then say there were no POC in original trilogy .
Well it's that, and it's also the fact that you do not see the actor's ethnicity under all that makeup and prosthetics, and quite possibly also the fact that they really do not care for Maori people and often use the word "POC" to mean something more specific.
Also the actor who played Sauron in his Dark Lord form during the Prologue scenes.
Technically that doesn't count
@@admirekashiri6651 who not ?
@@shibalikchakraborty5344 Orcs aren't human anyone can play an Orc with all.that make up. So the character he was playing was a creature not a black human.
Oz at 3:50 was referring to the Celebration Parallax.
1) "X is not happening."
2) "It would be a good thing if X happened."
3) "It's happening, and it's a good thing."
27:42 I'm so glad I wasn't the only one that raised an eyebrow at that scene.
Yeah, that was pretty racist, ngl
@Joe Schmoe Weird, it's now at 23:20, maybe some parts got cut...
Oz was commenting on the scene in Black Panther where they all started whooping like monkeys.
Tolkien is right and the entire purpose of fantasy is to convey timeless themes ethics and morals. He isn't writing an allegory but as readers we will see an allegory because as by nature anything timeless is applicable to our own time. In contrast science fiction is pondering how those very same ethics and morals. It still isn't supposed to be allegory when written but will be interpreted as such.
When you get away from meritocracy and are selecting to have a gender, ethnic or any form of visual diversity, which is not based on skills, character, intrinsic value to the organization, that is inherently discriminatory.
I am Asian , and I don't give a damn if my race is not represented in Tolkien's lore, I still can enjoy watching the LoTR trilogy, as well as enjoying reading many books that Tolkien wrote. I think in the near future the idea of representation, inclusion and diversityyy will become a norm ....which is just sad, now I can imagine a very famous chinese lore - Romance of the Three Kingdoms being adapted by big hollywood movie corp, and the main casts will be mostly whites or blacks Lol...
I'm pretty sure you guys put more effort into hating Rings of Power than Amazon put into making Rings of Power.
I'm pretty sure more effort has gone into this comment then the script for rings of power
@@KingFancyson I'm pretty sure more people put effort into breathing then they did into the rings of power script.
Ironically, Amazon doesn't need to put any effort in because fans will watch anything.
Its not only not Tolkien. It is decidedly anti-Tolkien
Its Anti white
Reading that interview left me actually nauseated, that's the most disgusting and vile ideology being spewn in full display, and ironically you can make tons of allegories to this evil in Tolkien's work, that's really how you make a timeless work, this perverse corruption of his work will feel horribly dated even before it comes out.
It really is a breath of fresh air listening to people who speak the truth. Thank You 😃
Oz - "I have to watch 'Black Panther' in photo-negative." 😆🤣
I have a sneaking suspicion this actress may not be the smartest person to ever try and put words together. You think she has ever said anything that 1) she thought of herself and 2) made sense
Maybe this is just a failed attempt at Monty Python humor?
"You have not seen what I have seen"
"Yes I have"
"No you haven't"
"yes I have"
"No you haven't"
Want black people? Focus on Haradrim, or Easterlings. Hell, Rhun is untapped. Go for places that makes sense! It makes no sense how people can all be from one geographical place and look so diverse and different. That isn't how it happens.
That would be facinating!
No. Make rather some Zulu mythology series that I won't watch lol
@@DaLordIsBack1 I dunno, the Zulus did have some epic battles and history, it didn't just start with Rourke's Drift. Still, it would have to represent the world we live in, and have half the cast be Chinese and Indian...
Screw that adapt an African fantasy instead where in which actual ooriginal characters who happened to be black exist according to the author's vision. Tolkien made no black characters leave the tales he wrote all white.
Anyone remember the great Redwall series? Apparently nobody could connect with that because none of the readers were animals.
Just when you thought they couldn't dig their grave deeper.
If they keep this up, they could open the bowels of Hell.
I'm starting to think "Rings of Power" is just a glorified fanfiction. Just like Red vs Blue, but worst than Red vs Blue.
tbf most things are worse than RvB
Funny how the England football team should get mentioned, last year the Mens team were playing in the Mens euro’s the big things as diversity is our strength, we are winning due to diversity, until they lost the final.
The woman’s team which has no coloured players in the squad has also made it to their respective final on Sunday, not maybe they lose I can’t predict the future but if they win and the squad has no diversity in it. By the logical the left used in the Mens team, that diversity is our strength and tee we’re only winning because of how diversified our team was it would actually mean it is in fact not our strength.
Shad you really should read The Silmarillion. It's so good. If Claudia is a Dwarf than she's a hot dwarf. I think she's dreamy.
Sam wise thought this part in the book, given to Faramir to say in the movie, “It was Sam's first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much. He was glad that he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would rather have stayed there in peace.”
One of my favorite passages in all of Lord of the Rings.
when they released the pictures and names of the actors. they didnt say what role they would play. i was so happy, i thought alot of them wouldve been from harad, rhun and umbar. i really want to see those places to the east and south.
For Oz
theme :
1) A topic of discourse or discussion. synonym: subject.
2) A subject of artistic representation.
3) An implicit or recurrent idea; a motif.
Theme is a "big picture message/idea" while allegory is a direct ( or even indirect ) representation of something from the real world.
Modern leftists work only in allegories ( poor ones in fact ) while good writers/storytellers embrace a theme, and give it their own spin.
Theme is harder to work in because it takes intelligence, something modern leftists do not have.
@Joe Schmoe Also, that was written BEFORE modern leftists started writing their own "stories"...
Remember when movies or tv shows used to advertise the writers or showrunners of other highly successful shows? Like when a show was announced they used to lead with written and directed by as a selling point because it used to be merit based. Now the selling point is how diverse the cast is and how it "represents" society
Yeah they don't even do it right. Its fantasy. If you're going screw this anyway why not add some new races and color. Like i would want to see some blue dwarws, dark elves, yet it always adding human like colors.
I don't think they think they aren't being timeless. I truly think they think their modern politics IS timeless.
I've started reading the silmarillion. Feanor's oath, the first kinslaying,
(Spoilers)
when Feanor's son wants to save Fingolfin's people but his dad laughs and has the boats burned, oh gosh and how self-sacrificing and peace seeking Fingolfin is. Gosh I was on the verge of tears. (Not done with the book yet! So plz no spoilers on the rest).
Last night I had a dream where ungoliant and the female titan from attack on titan were fighting outside my house. Scary but very cool.
I have to say, although I'm like 25% through the silmarillion, so far it is so damn magical and sorrowful and it tugs at your heart strings. You're just routing for Feanor to not fall into such a destructive spirit, sad for his sons who took that oath on the spur of the moment, just so sad for the death that has happened so far.
There's also a ton of great artwork inspired by tolkein's work. Imo just random stuff you find on pinterest hits so much harder than the polished cgi they have in the show. With their budget surely they could have hired the most creative people to make a work of art.
I've got similar issues with The Hobbit but it gets a pass for a few reasons
* Martin Freeman as Bilbo was GREAT
* the story isn't supposed to be too serious anyway. It's a lighthearted adventure. It's not like they're butchering an epic saga of the world.
*Peter Jackson originally wanted it to be 2 movies and to have plenty of time to figure things out, but the company pushed them so hard Jackson had to stop working on the film! I feel sympathy 4 the directors.
Anyway, listen to a silmarillion audiobook.
Jenny Dolfen has AWESOME Silmarillion art, especially with Maedhros (Fëanor's oldest son). You may want to wait before checking it out though, as she has illustrated many scenes from all parts of the book, including parts you haven't read. She has a website, so you can just look up her name and easily find it.
Allan Lee also has great illustrations, especially of landscapes, and of course there are many more artists out there, if you want to search them by name.
Have fun with reading the rest of the Silmarillion, if you liked it so far you'll probably like the rest of it too.
@@georged.5595 I will totally check it out when I'm done reading!!!!
@@audreyandremington5265 So cool to hear how much you are enjoying The Silmarillion, its a masterpiece and my favorite book ever.
Its so epic yet so tragic, the characters are all fascinating and its great to see how Tolkien connected his whole mythology into a single cohesive narrative, where you can see the actions of the past echoing into the future.
I can only dream of an adaptation of the first age, but I think only animation or video game could do justice to the scale of it.
Anyway, have fun with the rest of the book, it only gets better!
@@aesir1ases64 I actually really like anime. I think it works pretty well with serious themes. My whole family loves attack on titan (my teen brother, my 56 yr old stay at home homeschool mom, my business and weather geek dad) and I think in the right hands something cool could definitely be done
Its so hard being a black nerd. Everywhere I look people say isn't that great that your people are now in movies. crazy thing is that I've seen black people in everything since I was a kid.
A good example is marvel acting like Nick Fury wasn't one of the most important characters. AND IS IT CRAZY THAT IN A WORLD WITH EUROPEAN CASTLES, ARMOR, WEAPONS, AND SPEECH THAT THE POEPLE BE WHITE!
Exactly and tbh this shit they're doing today undermines the characters we had growing up as they're just tokenizing. They could adapt fantasies with real authentic diversity, or adapt African fantasies they've never made such films or TV shows. But seeing this crap I'm sure they'll add some political BS, so screw that indie is the future.
I know you're still gonna watch it to give your full thoughts on how they've butchered Tolkien's writing, but I kinda wish you don't have to. I get that you need to give criticisms but I feel like it would genuinely be agonizing to watch the show for any one of us who love Lord of The Rings, The Hobbit, Silmarillion, and all of Tolkien's works.
Plus, watching it fuels the success of these monopolies.
@@SoundEngraver EXACTLY!! It just gives them revenue, and I'm just... honestly so tired that I'm not gonna bother.
@@KamalAdnanTheFirst Me neither.
OMG! when they were talking about racial accessibility I started thinking about how I can enjoy The Lion King without being a cat. What a coincidence they start taking about the lion king.
The Cosby show was one of my favorite shows as a kid, I didn’t care about their skin tone, it reminded me of my family sorta, it’s funny and I liked it. Mrs Cosby was and always will be one of the prettiest gals on TV imo, I love her smile.
As someone who ignores Tolkien, the Legendarium is basically an English Mythology, because the britons (aka Welsh and Cornish) have Arthur and his cycles; the irish have their own mythology, the norse have their mythology, but the English did not had a... well copilation of stories of the anglo-saxon deities and adventures, correct?
I think amazon took a quote of Adam Savage a bit to literally. "I reject your reality and substitute my own."
If Tolkien needs to be rewritten why can’t they write their own story? Why fix a story you don’t like when you can create something entirely new with everything you want included?
haha "rumors" ... more like "i know what you're trying to do and i don't like it" - Happy Gilmore
Tolkien hated allegory because it was a tyrannical decree of an intended interpretation by the author. He wrote stories with applicability - leaving the interpretation as an exercise up to each reader - free, as it were, of authorial tyranny. As such, we can each derive our own 'soul' of the literary work. Is it a story about how friendship and avoiding pursuit of power saves the world? How becoming adult through adventure or soldiery makes you unable to "go home" again? It's up to you, the reader, and your specific experiences.
Faramir actually says that in the books about the dead haradrim. Such a good character.
Side note, it was a shame how they stunted the love story between him and Eowyn from how it was in the books. Also it really was a shame they cut out the Battle of Hobbiton.
I still like the OT film by PJ.
Have you seen a trailer “Medieval”? I just saw it recently and I am curious if you know what period is being done and your overall thoughts on it!
You guys are so funny and insightful. I love watching people with views paralleling my own
Most people do..
@@rockinHurley777 Yeah, the commentary was about how I don’t see it as often
Liked and commented to help beat the algo. Now as for this rewriting of things people love, and purposely ruining it. The things we can do about it is A not watch the new junk, B buy the old stuff where you can, and C create new original stories.
I remember the show runners in an interview saying their philosophy for writing the show was “refer to the books, refer to the books”, all I could think was, what books you don’t have the rights to the books(Silmarillion etc.) just an appendix
So...we have a story based on European culture and European geography with a twist that there are number of non-European-like people that never existed in the original story suddenly turned into indigenous.
How original.
I'm almost finished my vfx course at uni and I've worked on some small projects in the industry. From what I'be learnt, almost everyone that is an artist/employee has similar views to you three and myself.
The problem is the bosses, the corporate a-holes and the investors who force the artists and employees to make woke propaganda and historical inaccuracies.
....yes, if you don't do the job you have been hired by a client to do, you will be fired. That's not wokeness, that's just how jobs work.
@@Nofixdahdress of course u get fired for not doing your job. The problem is some of these jobs are run by evil, racist woke people.
Two contradicting interviews so close together. Imagine that!
As a Tolkien fan I’m very glad you guys are this honest! Many Tolkien Lore channels are just overly hyped knowing it’s gonna destroy a part of Tolkien’s legacy
Amazon we’re battling a losing war the minute they decided to make this shoe to begin with before a single trailer or image was shown
I feel Shad nailed the difference between applicability and allegory with his comments about theme. Obviously, there may not be an exact hard line between it all. But you always can tell when a story is deep and rich in "history" as Tolkien would put it, and when a story is permeated with modern day fads and fancies (even if they may try to mask it). The Wheel of Time TV show is a perfect example with all of their HEAVY handed attempts at critiquing "toxic" masculinity - to the point where in the climatic final episode which was supposed to finally reveal the power of the male half of the One Power, they had all the males doing nothing all episode. Indeed, the hero doesn't refuse the villain because he is evil or for a desire to do good, but because his lady "wouldn't want it." FFS.
I can't wait for shad to rage out on this tv-show and show his indie movie to us all. so that we as fans of his work can always find a something with WAY LESS munny to make it (could not think of the work) to see what respect and passion can do to a piece of fantasy where someone has had to work hard for to realise. the "gif" when shad gets mad are going to be al over the place.
rings of power reaction is going to be so much fun to listen to when they come out.
For Oz. Winston's job at the Ministry of Truth was to re-write newspapers so they aligned with the Party's official line, every time they changed their story.
The show runners were also ignoring or editing key words out of the quotes. The way they presented one of his quotes was the opposite of how they presented it because they left out the last most important word.
"Absurd"
And what came before, which was "Do not laugh!"
5:27 I think this quote by Tolkien is relevant to the discussion where Oz talk abbout Allegory
“I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history - true or feigned- with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.” -Tolkien
Does all stories have Allegories?
I do not think so, but at the same time i can't say that with confidence..., let me elaborate:
Not all stories are intentionally created, if a person recalls a story that happened in any day of their lives i'd think it would be hard to say it was allegorical because most likely, the person telling that story had no full control of what was happening to them, therefore, it would be difficult to believe they intended or intentionally created that story as an allegory.
That said, i do believe any story could be INTERPRETATED as an allegory, but that would be more so on the eyes of the beholder than something inherent to said story.
So since NOT all stories are intentionally created, i do not think it's possible that all stories have allegories, you can ascribe meanings and allegories to any story, but that won't be something the story has, it would be something that you interpretated and placed there yourself.
As another example, if you watch the news and see the recounts and reports of stories that happened with other people who had no full control of how things happened to them, i don't believe those have allegories, but i do believe you could interpretate and infer any message/allegory/ symbolism that you like.
Also, as for "All story has an allegory, otherwise there is no point for the story... ", but couldn't a story exist just to enterain? If i excitedly tell you about a match in game, wouldn't that be qualified as a story? and would that necessarily have an allegory?
Well those are my thoughts on the matter, very fun video by the way!
👍
Oz and Shad: *disagree on a topic*
Nathan: *clasps hands and smiles at camera*
Galadriel Warrior Princess defenders will point out that in The Silmarillion Galadriel was desirous of new lands and to rule a realm of her own BUT they miss the point that this desire was before the 1st Kinslaying which in the Unfinished Tales says she fought against Feanor. While she went to Middle Earth anyway she may have grown disgusted with the House of Feanor which is why she didn't participate in the War of the Jewels and took the path of Melian ruling a land in peace rather than in conquest. I feel the reason Tolkien never really dwell on her past was because she was meant to be that otherworldly being like the faerie folk of old legends (before being downsized to tiny silly creatures) something which is beyond the ken of men. You can see how Tolkien treated her in LOTR compared to Legolas and even Elrond. Both of them are elves and Elrond is given a lot of praise, Galadriel's presence has a completely different affect. She is truly the magical other being from old myths who gives the hero the gifts they need in order to fulfill their quest. The lore backs this up because by the time of the War of the Rings, she's one of the few elves in Middle Earth who was born in Valinor and saw the light of the Two Trees. By making her a revenge-bound warrior princess, it ruins her ethereal mystique.
gotta love the changing definitions though, can i do that too?
"Murder? No Judge, i didnt commit murder."
"You beat that man into a bloody pulp"
"i did not. I enthusiasticly petted his head. You see murder is defined as..."
"i know what murder is, you killed that man"
"Nah you see in order to kill him he must be dead"
"he is dead!"
"No you see by definition dead means still breathing, since he aint he cant be dead and since he isnt dead i couldnt have killed or murdered him"
"I see...ok you get off with a warning. good day sir"
20:27 I think they were trying to make "POC" who are good guys? But if you've read Tolkien's Legendarium, are all the good guys considered by our modern standards as "Northern European or white"? Of course not! Do your research Amazon. It's not difficult.
The Easterling named Bor the Faithful, his three sons and his warriors, the axemen of Lossarnach, the hillmen of Lamedon, the wild tribesmen of Ghân-buri-Ghân, the Easterling and Haradrim rebels under the Blue Wizards Rómestámo and Morinehtar who opposed against the domination of Sauron?
I thought the Easterlings were so cool, I would have loved a tv show about them
@@marfin4325 It can be done. However it would be difficult since there is no lore to base upon. As such, if a film or mini series is indeed made, it should be considered as fanfiction and in all fairness I'm truly fine with it.
@@thegermaniccoenus2525 So long it is actual _fan_ fiction and not whatever Amazon is doing. From what I hear from people who played the games, they were good despite not being canon. Fans could (and probably already have) make a similarly good fan-film based on Tolkien's work.
Too bad Amazon just wanted tokenism not these characters
I would like to know what Tolkien thought 'English' heiritage actually was. He certainly draws from Germanic and Celtic sources for inspiration and that is understandable as the English are basicly Germans inhabiting a previously Celtic land. But to say the English do not have a Mythology is a strange statement to me as it removes England from her roots. The English HAVE a mythology: The Germanic/Scandinavian mythology of their ancestors. The mythology of Thor and Woden, of Beowulf and Wayland, Hengist, Horsa and Havelok the Dane.
I think what motivated Tolkien to a degree was the idea that England should spring free of her old ancestral ties and just imagine a new past, so to speak. In an age of often unsubstantiated and missplaced national pride, this is all to understandable and the result was a great boon for literature internationally, so who could complain ...
England -- the *place* -- is far older than the official formation of the country and the Anglo-Saxon invasions. From what I've learned, Tolkien regretted the loss of the native "English" folklore that predated, and was largely eradicated by, Roman occupation.
This is suggested by the fact that Middle-earth contains a creation myth. It isn't simply a tale of heroes, but a description of how the very world and its inhabitants came into being. It's a true origin for "England" -- not just the origin of the country, politically, but the origin of the land itself.
English are made up of Celtics, Anglo Saxons (Angles and people from Saxony etc), Scandinavian ancestry.
This takes me back, when my brother waa gushing about Mandalorian's first episodes.
Bro: Omg, it's soooo good! I know you have a beef with star wars, but they're doing it, man! They're getting it *right!* For once!'
Me: wait.
Bro: what do you mean, "wait"?
Me: they will destroy everything you love. Just give it a minute.
*one canceled actress later*
Me: it's not easy being right
O the perfect timing of the CZcams ad-break:
"...Elrond was a fighter. He was there in the fray and now they are making him-"
"-watch yoga videos ad-free and practise uninterrupted..."