Video není dostupné.
Omlouváme se.
Harley Twin Cam, Cam Chain Tensioner issue.
Vložit
- čas přidán 9. 03. 2018
- Hi, new bike, new problem. There seems to be an inherent problem with early twin cam engines and cam chain tensioners. This will be a series of videos not detailing the work but just pointing out some of the issues faced whilst undertaking the install of a 'Screamin Eagle' upgrade kit.
Awesome video man! Not a lot people know about these chain tensioners on the twin cam engines. Especially if you have a Harley that has spring loaded tensioners like the one in the video. The hydraulic tensioners last a bit longer than the spring loaded ones; however, you still have to check it and replace when necessary to avoid engine damage.
Stay safe and safe riding.
Thanks for watching and taking the time to comment.I'll certainly take a look once I take it off the road over winter to assess wear rate.Best regardsPB
I agree with the concerns about the camchain tensioner shoes. I just uploaded 4 videos of my 2003 TC88 at shop yesterday. I have only 11k original miles, but dont ever want to go through a chain tensioner failure. I had a 2002 TC88 with 57k and still no tensioner fix yet. The bike was very unique, from what Ive learned.. This was before I became aware of the importance of preventing failure.. I checked the crank runout and ordered an S&S 509g complete camchest upgrade. I truly love the Harley motorcycle, and believe with this fixed, the bike should be all good for many years. Everything has ups and downs. This is the crap, however could be much worse. After all, nothing else is a Harley !
i'm an american born and bred and bought your british triumph r3r; 28k trouble free miles. You're from the UK and supported our Harley hopeful this fix works out for you mate i'm very happy with my rocket from Hinkley's Triumph.
Yes I had a 1600 Thunderbird for 3 years before the Harley but much prefer the Harley,.Thanks for watching though!regardsPB
If you dont want to throw the money at a hydraulic upgrade , you can take some polishing compound and clean up the tooling marks on the outside of the chain , helps the life of the tensioner a lot
I completely understand how you feel. I bought my 2001 FXSTD in April 2016, and didn't know about the issue with the cam tensioners until I overheard someone talking about it at the bike shop I go to. If I'd known about it sooner, I probably wouldn't have bought the bike. I'm the third owner, and it only had 6400 miles on it, so I'm thinking the previous owners found out what I did, and didn't ride it much. They were probably glad to get rid of it before anything happened. Now its my problem, and I cant afford to fix the problem properly, so I probably won't ride it as much as I wanted to. Ive had it checked twice. First when I learned of the problem, and again at the end of last year. It had 19,000 on it now. Very poor design. I expected better from Harley.
The only thing I'd say Jerry is if you can spanner it yourself the cost of the fix is less painful than the cost of it going wrong on you!!!! and it is quite doable although a bit fiddly.Thanks for watching and the comment.Best regardsPB
Thanks for responding.
I also overheard people talking about this problem and scared me into thinking I might not make it home because I had 70,000 kms. Not wanting to spend $2000. and not being a mechanic I watched a lot of CZcams and decided to take it one step at a time. It took me a long time but it turned out well for about $300.
The biggest surprise was it looked like it would’ve gone for a long time without problems. Good luck.
Hi, I really wanted to swap out the exhaust system on my bike just to give it that deeper Harley sound but I knew that even if it sounded great (in my mind) I'd still have a nagging concern about what was going on in the engine. There are obviously still no 100% guarantees, it being a mechanical thing anall but again in my mind I've removed one source of possible issue.Enjoyed doing it as well!!!!Anyhow, thanks for watching and taking the time to comment!Best regardsPB
The replacement tensioner shoes are longer lasting and pretty easy to do yourself. Just stop using synthetic oil. I heard from an HD mechanic that it makes them break down faster.
If I had Not noticed my Oil Gauge go down to zero and shut the engine off, I would have never known about this problem. I had a shop replace mine and clean out the engine ($1000 Gone) My engine would have blown at 28,000 miles. This is crazy engineering. (2004 FLHTC).
Some early twin cam engines had cam bearing failure which was bad. Harley installed better bearings the second year and that went away.
Using good synthetic oil makes a huge difference in lubrication and the cam shoe life.
My 2000 wide glide now has 85,000 on the factory cam shoes. But, I have used amsoil since the second oil change and I change oil and filter at 5,000. I don't hot rod it and the engine seldom is revved higher than 3,000. I knew about the bearing failure but the dealer reassured me mine had the newer bearings.
Besides I had the extended warranty so if it blew, I got a free repair. Once It turned over the 50,000 mark I knew It had the good bearings. I only recently learned about the shoes that needed to be replaced! It was part luck but I think mostly the Amsoil, and I don't ride hard. I cracked the cover and I could see the shoe was worn down to the halfway mark. So, I got out the shop manual and I'm tearing into it to replace the shoes.
I went with the Screamin eagle hydrolic kit and was totally worth it and peace of mind
I know Harley come in for a lot of stick but I thought it was good value. The quality was superb and as you say piece of mind.Thanks for watching.PB
How much did everything cost? Parts and labor
your friends will use these tools you made Haha, also charge them $10 to use them. this will help to pay for them... you have the same problem all twin cam owners have... this is a good video... thank you from San Diego, CALIF. USA...
Thanks for watching John and taking the time to comment.RegardsPB
Great video. At 64 Im never to old to learn a new trick or two. A man that makes his own tools is a rare breed in today's world. If Brady Texas USA wasn't so far away from you I would take you out to lunch just to pick your brain. Ill bet I would pick up a few more nuggets of wisdom. Wishing you the best sir.
Many thanks for your kind comments sir. RegardsPB
Always used amsoil if that tells you anything 😉. Upgraded with screaming eagle cam plate stage 2 cams and high volume oil pump
I can understand you wanting to be cautious and replace the tensioners, that's fine but WHY REWARD Harley by purchasing their Screamin Eagle Twin-Cam 'upgrade' kit. They designed this mess and now you're going to let them profit off of it as well?? I have a 2006 NightTrain. When the time comes- I'll use S&S or Fueling. I LOVE my Harleys but HATE HarleyCorporate.
Good luck with your bike - Ride safe.
I'm new to the Harley scene, I have a good local dealer (which is not the dealer I bought the bike off) so for me it was I guess the least hassle option. I'd looked at S&S but don't recall much success with finding a UK outlet and I just wanted to get the job done with known parts.RegardsPB
Exactly! That's why I went to Andrews cams and finally S&S gear drives.These tensioners are junk.
Every engine had it's flaws. The twin cam with chain tensioners. So be it. Check it every 30k and you're good. I see it as a tune up. If you can turn a wrench you can change a tensioner. Honestly it should have either been better plastic or gear driven. But.... The Harley has a crankshaft that may wobble when hot so a gear driven cam system is just a comfortable fix for a time. I'd rather have a cam tensioner degrade than a gear explode.
@@nickkorte Nick... the actual job or changing the tensioners is doable by the backyard guy.. IFFFF he has the tools; cam bearing remover, installer. Yes- you can get by with HaborFreight 'disposable' tools but then... you're fishing needle bearing pieces out of the crankcase. As far as 'every engine has it's flaws'- THIS particular 'flaw' as you put it- could have been handled better by Harley. This is a MAJOR flaw and Harley has NOT stood by it's customers and they get away with this way too much. Anyway- ride safe.
George Harrod : S&S Gear Drive is this way to go !!!
Drop your back wheel down if on lift, then your don't need that piece of plastic. One tool I found fantastic and only cost £25 from USA was a tool to remove and reinstall push rod tubes (like a big pair of clamps)
I couldn't understand you when you gave the mileage on the bike. How many miles? Thanks.
Bike had about 8500 miles when I did the work.
Did you have a symptom or did you just not like the look of the tensioner?
Any chance you could draw up the plan for your "Nut & Pin" for the cam tensioner. Would be much appreciated
Hi Kev,
I'm away at the moment but I'll try and sort something out when I get back next week if that is soon enough.
In all honesty the tool I made was only any use for the primary chain tensioner as it was too clumsy to work on the rear so I would redesign to make another.
Thanks for watching.
Regards
PB
Hi Kev, this is where I'm at a loss...................I've just been out in the shop, took a picture, put some dimensions on it but I don't know how to share it with you.Essentially the tension tool has a 24.5mm bore which then has to be cut along the periphery to allow it to slot over the tensioner body. Mine was made from a block of steel 20mm thick but in all honesty I wouldn't do it that way again. Better off using a but of tube or boring out a bit of steel if you can. The nut on the end is pretty much irrelevant...........what ever you've got that fits will do, it was just a means of putting a socket / spanner on. The pin is 3.0mm Dia. with a working length of 55.0mm, then you need enough on the end to create a loop to work as a handle, something to get hold of.I made reference to this in a previous response but my tool would not fit the inner chain tensioner because it was too clumsy.Hope that may help.............................let me know!Best regardsPB
Your tensioner doesn't have much wear at all
.but, since you're that that far...might as well change them out. I recommend. Cyco parts and gaskets
Cut the push rods and replace with adjustable push rods. Makes for less work pulling head.
Wouldn't disagree with you, especially if you have to take it into the shop to get it done.
I'd probably still do it the same way........cos I like doing that sort of thing, especially through the winter.
Thanks for watching and commenting though.
Regards
PV
If you crack a cam chest open replace with a gear cam kit always and call it a day.
Make sure you don't have adjustable push rods...if you do
.you don't need to pull the tank and the valve covers
I believe you if you say it so can you post a picture of when you're removing the rocker cover,, Just for my own
Nuggets pickles Under Under Never pull out the ones that are holding your rocker arm support plate,, thanks..S
Scott, have a look at the other videos in the series where you'll see the work progressing with the tank in place.RegardsPB
My twin cam has 94 thousands miles and still going strong with no issues. Tensioners have never been changed and bike has never had any issues but finally decided to have it worked on for shits and giggles lol
That's some mileage James. I probably over reacted, but I was fortunate enough
That's some mileage James. I probably over reacted, but was fortunate enough at the time to have the money to fit the Screamin Eagle upgrade so just got on and did it.
Thanks for watching
PB
What year is your Deluxe? I have a 2006 Deluxe with 40,000 miles on it now. I've checked my cam chain tensioners at every 10,000 miles. The tensioners are still within the wear limit (less than half of the shoe thickness). I was intending to change them but I figure I have another 10,000 miles before they need changing. It seems that the shoe material was not as resistant from 99' to 02'.
Hi Claude, mine is a 2005 bike with very low mileage. My understanding at the time I did this, was that the spring tension on the tensioner was too strong and caused excessive wear on the pad until such time that the blade wore away and the tensioner collapsed. The resultant tensioner material blocked oil ways, especially those in the crank cases, that blast a jet up at the under side of the piston. As I say somewhere amongst the videos, I was fortunate enough at the time to have the money around to swap it all out for hydraulic system. I probably over reacted, but that's nothing unusual. I would have thought yours being a 2006 model, already has hydraulic tensioners in it?
Thanks for watching PB
@@PB-yt7bf Mine also has the spring style tensioners but they are still good. I thought the cam chains from 99' to 03' (Not sure of last year) were rougher and tended to saw through the shoe material. But now I rethinking that because your tensioners look more worn at 8,000 miles than mine are at 40,000 miles. I do use Amsoil synth oil and maybe that reduced tensioner wear but who knows! As they say, it's a crap shoot. I'm pretty sure my cam chains are smooth. That would explain the lower wear.
We are going to shoot a CZcams video ; of a twin-cam 88 running with the cam chain tensioners pulled.
Then, we are going to look for a Mil-8 motor ; pull the hydraulic tensioners out ; plug the oil feed ; and re-shoot another video of this motor running without those chain tensioners.......
Interesting Gary but what results are you looking for?
@@paulbuckberry7683 ........ results would be to show that a Mil-8 motor can run without cam chain tensioners ; just as my old TC-88 can....
I have this same issue today!
Oh dear, did you catch it before it caused you major issues? Are you fixing yourself?
@@paulbuckberry7683 Yes... I got lucky I guess. I'm waiting on parts.
@@Tom-W7TMD Excellent news, hope all goes well with the rebuild!
Regards PB
I was lead to believe the tensioners were a bad problem and there not,I replaced with just shoes at 30000 miles I could of went a lot longer,well at 60000 I'll change them again need them or not.mine is 2006 softale deluxe
Been 30,000 miles is absolutely nothing that was a Henry Ford design
I have to agree. I have seen many bikes that were just doing it to "check and make sure". Almost every one of them with less than 25K miles were still good to go.
Great video thanks you
Hi
My Dyna has 16000 should I get them checked? Is there a average mileage?
Cheers
Gary
Hi Gary, firstly, what year is your Dyna?
I'm fairly sure that anything above the 88, so 96 cu.in. onwards has hydraulic tensioners as standard, so less of a problem area I believe. If you can't do it yourself, find a dealer or independant guy you can trust and discuss it with them. The cost of checking could well be a lot less than the cost of failure.
Best regards
PB
@@paulbuckberry7683 hi Paul
It’s a 2005
@@garywhiteman8798 trouble is Gary, I'd say have a look and then someone will shoot me down and say they've got 50k on theirs no problems.
Can you do it yourself??
PB
@@paulbuckberry7683 bit above me I think but never mind , I will check them
@@garywhiteman8798 wish I could be of more assistance Gary. Good luck!!
PB
I just replaced my tensioners at 47,000 miles. I bought the bike new in July of 2001 (Heritage Softail). I have always used synthetic oil in it and change every 5000 miles…. the tensioners were about half worn through. I usually ride Interstate roadways at 75 MPH. Rarely on city streets. The tensioner pads were very brittle... Tying to convince my friend to do the same on his 2000 Deuce that has 30,000 on it.
And that brittleness is the problem. You never know when they are giving up the ghost after 30K miles. I think city driving is harder on them due to increased crankcase temps.
What did you make that tool out of?
Hi, the first tool was just a piece of steel machined to suit with a 16mm nut welded on. Turned out to be completely over the top and there are numerous alternatives shown on the many other videos on CZcams. The second was made from a piece of nylon block.
Hope that helps.
Thanks for watching.
This cam chain design nearly killed Harley Davidson and put it back in the amc day again. The EVO design with gears was about as good as it good for the technology of the day but the huge primary chain rotating in oil was problematic as well making Harley Davidson motorcycles to labor intensive even for mechanics trained to work on them. Other manufacturers have gear drive primaries, full counter balancing, full liquid cooling and large radiators that keep them running like a car. HD doesn’t change until forced to which brought on the Milwaukee 8.
*AMF
Hydraulic tensioners also wears off.
The only way to do it without pulling the tank is to cut your pushrods,, there's not enough room to take The Rocker Box covers off with the Tank on not alone get in there and do any work.. good luck
Sorry Scott have to disagree with you on that.Admittedly it's tight but it most certainly can be done without taking the tank off. What really made it easier which I didn't cotton on to until some way through the project is that you need to take the console off and disconnect the wiring, it's amazing how much additional movement on the tank that gives.I wouldn't disagree that cutting the pushrods is the easier route though as it would save disturbing the rocker assemblies etc.............but I still think I would do it the same way again!!Thanks for watching and taking the time to comment though.Best regardsPB
@@PB-yt7bf you're right about JUST removing the console and pulling the connectors off. No need to remove the tank which means you don't have to worry about draining the gas / depressurizing the system on EFI models. A lot of guys cut the rods - that's their choice but it also introduces a failure point... last thing a Harley needs. If any of you guys go the adjustable route- make damned sure you wait long enough for the rods to bleed down before final slack adjustment. Ride safe everybody.
I understand your frustration, but if your car requires a timing belt at every 60,000 miles, why is it such a issue to check and or change the tensioners at 40,000 ? I understand not being in the states has its own issues as well. All the very best. Remember, FULL SYNTHETIC OIL goes a long way in regards to the life of your Twin Cam, including the POORLY DESIGNED spring loaded cam chain tensioners. Yes brother I build Twin Cam Dynas for a living.
Thanks for the comments Sarge, it's been two years since I did the work. I don't do massive mileage on the Harley, but boy do I enjoy it...............riding and tinkering!!!
Regards
PB
I cannot think of a single car that requires a timing belt change at only 60k miles.
And if I bought a car whose timing belt or chain was failing at 15-20k for a significant number of folks, I'd not be happy.
What years are effected by this problem I'm new to Harleys and I am looking at a 2003 Road King with 22xxx miles ?
In all honesty I'm not sure, other than it was early twin cam models that had the spring loaded tensioners rather than hydraulic.Mine is a 2005 model and I think they went hydraulic in either 2006 or 7.RegardsPB
99 to 2006... went to 96 cubic in 07
Every single Twin cam engine needs this service. So 1999 to 2018
Last_Stach_Standing ! Sounds about right. I would advise anyone trying to decide to go 09 and later models though. Especially if they are planing on doing any kind of touring. Alot of the harley dealerships no longer stock 88cu parts any sort of break down may require a couple days for parts to be shipped in. And though i believe the 88 is a better running motor with the tensioners being the most common issue, the 6th gear of the later model bikes come in handy on the open road. Just food for thought
I pulled my tensioners out ; and threw them away......
The 80ci evo is harleys masterpiece. Its a bulletproof engine and will run 200k easy. No plastic or cheap engineering in it. Stick with 90s harleys there high quality. I have acouple evo harleys and will never go twin cam.
I didn't have much respect for the evo when it first came out. Now, I'm inclined to agree with you, it's probably the best engine ever produced by Harley. I still love my shovel though.
totally agree evo engine is way superior. but what can you do. sooner or later you gotta buy a twin cam . I have a pan , an ego. just bought a 103 twin cam, love my other rides, but the ride of this 103 twin cam, is worth the issues
Don't forget that in the evo engines breather valve wear engine case to. There are no bullet proof engines.
To replace can chain tensioners is easy job
wojpyz the breather valve can be replaced with an s@s steel one if you like,the stock one works just fine youll see evos with 100k+ still running em.
Carlos Resende Yes. I know that. But this is still job on the engine.
All harleys are very good
harley knew what they did, manufactured crap then crammed it up our asses. why in the hell would anyone buy more harley parts to fix them??
You know i hate to hear all the crying about twin cam tensioners. Check them if they are bad replace.
Pull the cam plate every other oil change and check them.
Ive a twin cam myself and i will be checking mine shortly. A will replace with oem parts no up grade no performance parts. Its a two cylinder engine. You can only expect so much.
Bought a Harley... will NEVER buy another.
Each to their own.........some people just dont have the staying power and commitment required to own and ride a proper bike!!
@@paulbuckberry7683 That's dumb. Why pay premium prices for inferior product. My Triumph is engineered far better... with brakes that actually work!
Funnily enough Jimmy_jim_jim, I ran a 1600 Thunderbird for three years before I bought the Harley, I never got the same level of satisfaction out of ownership and riding that, as I do the Harley.............as I say each to their own!!
Regards
PB
@@paulbuckberry7683 Every bike has it's problems. I had a Triumph Thunderbird once. What a piece of crap it was. The electrical system was a nightmare.
Every maker has issues.Yamaha roadliner, strat had 3rd gear failures requiring total engine split costing thousands to fix.BMW had mismatched gear failures on their drive shaft.Vulcan early models had plastic oil gear!!!Honda famous for poor electrical wiring rectifier, failures VFR's CBR's etc.My point is every bike has some kind of weakness.
And engine ever made with a timing chain has this issue this is nothing new, knocking harley for it is a cheap joke
Yes and no, the problem with these cam chain tensioners is they fail at different rates. Some will last 70,000 miles, some won't last 10,000 miles, nobody knows why such a large difference. Upgrading to a different system is the best solution for these.
@@thermalreboot exactly!
Damn shame that the engine only has 8k miles on it and its needing wrenched on like that. I noticed that you have a softtail model. Wait til you see what's INSIDE of the engine cases, yes, MORE TENSIONERS!! 🤣
The "B" engine was (is) the biggest piece of garbage Harley Davidson EVER made! Also the crank pin is PRESSED into the flywheels and known for scissoring which causes them to get out of true. When that happens it's done for, they also did away with the Timkin bearing which took out the thrust. Again, fix it and sell it, go buy yourself a carbureted Evo powered HD built between 1985-1998, you'll thank me later. Cheers..
PS- Here's a link to what I was referring to above.
czcams.com/video/n_V9ttdu0Uc/video.html
If you were to search "Tatro twin cam b" on CZcams you'd see all of the videos regarding that stupid HD engine.
Absolute junk bikes, should have got a metric.
Should have got a metric what??
Combustion69
He’s talking about a crouch rocket a cafe style Japanese bike. Don’t listen to him he’s just a speed freak!
You ride want you want.
Sounds like your mechanical inclined. Enjoy your bike!
Kawa vaquero is my next scoot 👍
Buy a metric bike for $13,000 and 2 years later it's worth $3000 maybe. I hope your WIFE OR MOMMY does your financial planning genius.
Look... Go get the metric. You'll still lose money in the end unless you keep the bike forever. Harley has one of the lowest depreciation of any bike out there. The only one that might be better is the Honda Goldwing.