It’s time to bring Russia in from the cold: Rapprochement is in the West's best interests
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- čas přidán 28. 06. 2017
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Isn’t it time we took a more intelligent approach to Russia? You don’t have to be a fan of Vladimir Putin or support his invasion of Ukraine and annexation of Crimea to see that an accommodation with Russia might be a good thing. Many would argue that it’s the West that is to blame for the bad blood between Russia and the West in the first place. Ever since the Wall came down, NATO has been expanding eastwards without any regard for Russia’s security interests. Russia’s actions may appear aggressive and expansionist to us, but in Moscow they are seen as a defensive strategy. Surely it is in everyone’s best interests if we understand that. As for the recent US airstrikes on Syria, Trump may have wanted to look tough on the world stage, but the conciliatory line he took towards Russia during his campaign was far more constructive. It’s easy to paint President Putin as the bad guy here, propping up the murderous Assad, but his main aim is to end the civil war in Syria and defeat ISIS. Does the West have anything better to offer?
That’s the case for improving relations with Russia. But should we come to an accommodation with a foreign power which threatens our Eastern European partners and goes so far as to meddle in last year’s US presidential election? The problem is not that the West has been too expansionist towards Russia, but that it hasn’t stood up to Putin’s aggressions. After failing to act over Ukraine and Crimea, the West is now confronted by an emboldened Russia which is helping Assad wreak destruction against captive Syrian civilians, and trying to destabilise Europe at this volatile moment by cultivating populists such as Marine Le Pen and extremist groups sympathetic to its interests. Russia is an unpredictable, dangerous power and should be kept at arm’s length.
For this major debate, Intelligence Squared put together a stellar line-up. Making the case for rapprochement with Russia were Vladimir Pozner, one of Russia’s best known television journalists and a former advocate for the Soviet Union, and Domitilla Sagramoso, a leading expert on security in Russia; arguing against them were Michael Hayden, former director of both the CIA and the NSA, and Radek Sikorski, who was Poland’s foreign minister from 2007 to 2014.
"Former director of the CIA..."
And out flies any credibility...
no applause :)
@@notastone4832 the other 3 didn’t get an applause so what’s your point
47 minutes? Are you kidding me? Did these guys not have enough money to rent the place for a bit longer?
Well it's far more than enough to indoctrinate you.
My God, I'm from Russia and I haven't seen such a civilised argument since... Never, I've never seen such quiet and peaceful conversation between sides. That's really cool
well, why would you even expect to see a civilised discussion in an uncivilised country like modern Russia, where even the chief of the country's military forces and foreign minister regularly use obscene language and disgraceful jokes?
@@motttamottta Sergei Lavrov, Russia's Foreign Minister is a smart, intelligent man. He outwits Western journalists with each encounter he has with them. The military chief is also a good man who is not going to aim bombs at anyone unless western forces do so first.
Good words!
That is what I thought too (from Canada former Hungarian) they even applauded each other's speeches at the start. It is a step in the right direction.
It should be common. Sigh ~~~
The Polish guy is like a Polish Boris Johnson
Poland was and is just now the hungry hyena of Europe, the conscript of Hitler, unleashed the Second World War. Itself and suffered !! Contributed to a coup in Ukraine!
@@yourygromadskyy3674 what do you mean unleashed the second world war ? are you talking about the supposed attack on the radio tower ?
More like a Boris yelstin
@@arthurcaron9453 starting since 1933 the USSR conducted a policy of collective security - wanted to reestablish ww1 Entante. Poland constantly put a spoke into a soviet wheel. Poland was one of the biggest obstacles on the way of creating anti german block between England, France, the USSR
"Is the US meddling in European affairs?" and everyone laughs. The bias has just been shown. The US meddling everywhere is "laughable" and Russia worrying about it's security is unacceptable.
that part was pure gold :D
People were not laughing at the fact, they were laughing at the irony of the argument; They were laughing at the sudden reveal and the ridicule of the very nature of USA foreign action: hypocritical.
Damn, even I laughed, but I take it quite seriously, to the point where I question the advantage of the EU being de facto guided by the USA in action (gladly, we're becoming more independent on the intelligence aspect of things) .
No they were laughing at the former CIA head being asked the question because everyone knows the CIA meddles everywhere
Control of the internet in Ukraine, which does not seem to bother the west.
ya because we installed a nazi government.
@@davids2368 Pompeo said they Lied, Cheated, did every kind of criminal activity, as a matter of course!
I like when americans call Russia as: "interventionalist power all around the world.."
That should not be like that, but people still listen and blame Russia for everything. just nonsense.
only to hide their own wheekness
SYRIA is very happy with Russian Intervention!
@@JeanLucCaptain and welcomes all the others
Well when americans intervened the regions became super powers, where russians put their hands it became wastelands.
@Ciprian Popa You're talking about Iraq, Libya, and Afghanistan?
I Love Pozner!!!!
He is an asshole!
Водный Мир peace by name, piss by nature.
@@user-hz3og2fb7k why
He's a liberal I don't like him
Polish clown with stupid jokes made Pozner look pale
so pleasing to see how a Reporter in russia is smarter than a minister in poland and head of cia.
Absolutely! He had informed, facts backed non-bias opinion compared to the other two
Слава Україні!
27:11 It's funny to hear how this polish minister speaks with that kinda "russian" accent which is so often can be heard in american movies when the actors are trying to imitate russians.
Agree. Former head of CIA sounded hypocritical saying we should all embrace amnesia of forgetting how Russian intervened into US and European elections... While USA openly invests billions of dollars sponsoring coups, opposition combatants and even organisations with relationships to ISIS in order to change political regimes in other counties around the globe they don't like. They did that for decades and are not going to stop it seems.
Yeah, that's right! Reporter is just the word! Pozner was a KGB reporter and now he is a FSB reporter!
The Polish minister is preposterous :D his so called arguments are more about comedy, not politics really 😅🤦♂️
You never heard of polish jokes?
Polish clown
You just described Polish politics.
From the very beginning the Polish speaker is clearly dishonest. He acts like Russia-Western relations were all going swimmingly until 2014 when it suddenly pivoted, completely out of the blue. Hard to believe he really believes that himself, bizarre that that's the basis for his argument in a public forum...
Michael Hayden is a really good speaker, an intelligent man for sure. But he is full of crap. 90% of the things he says about Russia also applys for the US: Corruption, the Exceptionalism, the rule of the rich. Princeton University 2014: the USA are de facto not a democracy anymore, but an oligarchy. Russia tried so hard to become a part of western structures in the early 90s and early 2000s that even many Russians crititcized it, because it made Russia look weak and needy. But Nato decided already in 1993 to expand the NATO as far as we know, maybe even earlier. The West, especially the US didn`t want Russia as a partner, but as a self-service outlet. for the same reasons it is utter BS what Sikorski says. Especially Poland did everything possible to keep Russia out of the western alliance, e.g. its membership in the WTO.
It was very good that Vladimir Pozner was there, he has the most differentiated point of view of them all. I didn`t expect that from a russian TV host/Journalist to be honest. Sikorski on the other hand is a clown, good for a laugh, but not providing anything of substance.
like what? he said they tried Russia to become a member of the western security architecture, which is by fact not true - especially not for Poland. The Nato Russia council was created because they didn`t want Russia in the Nato, but he says it as if it was a good thing, when it was just a put of for Russia. He said that their afford to integrate Russia to the west ended when Russia seized Crimea, but just look what happend before, like the US powering up Georgia`s budget of defense by 900% and sending drones and military advisors. We know what then happend. And what happend in ukraine, the west forced them to decide between Russia and the west instead of a coorpartion between the west Ukraine and Russia. Listen to Putin`s speech at the security summit 2007 in Munich. Sikorski said Russia has so many tanks, which was rightly undercut by Pozner who explained that modern war is not about tanks. that`s why russia is spending so much money in modernization and a flexible army. No Sikorski didn`t contribute anything of relevance
Dram Sikorski brought no substance at all to the debate...it would have been better without his clumsiness and him trying to be a clown.
"ut he is full of crap. 90% of the things he says about Russia also applys for the US"
Haha, one fifth of the Russian military budget is lost in corruption. To equate corruption in the US with that of Russia is laughable. You are using whataboutism
NATO decided nothing about the East. I live in Romania. We asked NATO to be a part of it, but they refused in 1997. They accepted our membership only in 2004, after long deliberations. You know why we want NATO. Because Russia is inherently violent and unstable. In the last 100 years Russia was a deep deep problem for itself, for Europe and the world. NATO is a defense alliance and right now it is the only hope for the Eastern Europe against Putin's autocratic rule. Without NATO the Baltic states will be dancing cazacioc right now.
We have other words, too. We have the word "iubi" meaning "to love". It comes from Russian "liubliu". But we also have "fute", a Latin word, from our Roman ancestors. It means "to fuck you". It is better, for now, to stay away. I know what am I talking about. I live in Moldova, Russians are not strangers for me.
I expected a more serious fact based argument from the polish guy .. he s just entertaining the crowd... Just being a politician I guess...
often using it to mask shaky points too. Makes his crowd pleasing jokes after implying that the West would be satisfied with a democratic referendum in Crimea, despite the fact that everyone knows that no one in the West would accept that as a solution to the conflict, because Russia would clearly win it...
Also, he implies that it was Russia that pulled out of the Minsk process, when, as far as I understand it, under the Minsk protocol Russia pretty much got everything it wanted, and it's the Ukrainians that unilaterally pulled out because they "refuse to deal with terrorists"...
Very frustrating, I was hoping to hear real arguments on both sides, but all we have on the opposing side is a CIA hack and a clown. Was hoping for sth a bit better than that...
CIA guy did make a few good points about Putin's precarity at least. And was definitely an intelligent speaker, if not particularly forthright
Syria didn't use bloody chemically weapons for heaven's sake.
And Iraq didn't have any nuclear weapons. Who cares about such little things as truth when there is a will to bomb an oil-rich country, eh?
Agree, the war in Syria was organized by foreign interests and they will keep that war going on for ever because, nobody wants to invest in a trouble a country and the war will keep future investors away. Secondly USA, Turkey and Israel can't allow Iran - Irak to build a pipeline through Syria because they already had built one through Azerbaijan and Georgia and had invested billions of billions. Just take a look of the dimensions of that business in that area and also see how Iran was ready to finance a pipeline through Syria and you will understand why suddenly all the complains about religion began to increased in that country. The entire war in Syria is an example of how far nations are willing to go to protect their economic interest . They don't care to lie to the core or kill million of people. There will always be stupid people who can be bought to start a local protest that escalates into a national protest movement and the MSM is always there to cover the atrocities against humanity when come from their political side. Taking advantage of the complains of some citizens against their government in office has become the easiest way to destabilize a nation.
Michael Hayden is incredibly disingenuous. Talking about Russia's intervention in the US election (BullS#it), while the US poured money into Ukraine, had US politicians making anti-Russian speeches in Kiev, and then deciding on the makeup of the Ukrainian government.
Radek Sikorski though funny, is also extremely biased. The west, in his mind, should be forgiven for their mistakes, while Russia pay for its.
And of course both of them forgets all about what the US did with Kosovo.
well Russia did basically same thing in Abhazia and Osetia :)
JEREMIASZ! Similar, but their status was different from that of Kosovo. And anyway it happened in 2007, after Kosovo.
USA WILL KILL NATIONS AND THERE PEOPLE FOR THERE GOOD. hOW F....K UP CAN YOU GET
Maybe Russia is the chief
But America is the Boss and should everyone have to know that there is nothing powerful than America
@@sztamgast Mate, Abkhazia and South Ossetia hated Georgians since the 1930s
Oh Mr. Hayden, mr. "you cannot base todays policy on history", may I remind you that there are NATO-troops at the boarder of Russia right now exactly because the baltic states and Poland are afraid that Russia will attack them like the czardom and the Soviet union did? THAT is the problem with US foreign policy, maybe because the US hardly have anything you can call "a history" - no war against a foreign power on their soil EVER and only about 250 years into existence. They don`t get it. They don`t take history into account, but history is absolutly important to countries, todays policy and the people. You can`t understand Russian policy without taking it`s history into account. They don`t even take the collective trauma of 27 million killed Russians and Soviet Citizens in WW II into account. That`s why US policy fails towards Russia again and again and again.
That is absolutely right, by the way Russia isn't in the cold by choice, but what's in it for Russia to leave the Savanna, what would the West offer that Russia hasn't got already?
solokom The War of 1812, I think that's a war that was fought on American soil.
solokom Are you arguing that Russia is going to attempt to conquer Poland and the rest of Europe? If so, they will be defeated within the first minutes (and I am not talking about the use of nuclear weapons).
solokom They only had one major war, amazingly with themselves, called the Civil War. BTW, I doubt if any white man would give his life to free a black man, lol.
masonmmaspecilist Why should the Russians even want to do that? Dance the Polka in the streets? Or rob their oil, which they don't even have.
USA meld in russia electionin 1996 in favour of boris yetsi
I didn't know Russia had a Yetti working in electronics.
@@gaiusquintilliuslupus8786 lol good one
@@gaiusquintilliuslupus8786
Three American political consultants-including Richard Dresner, a veteran of Clinton’s campaigns in Arkansas-went to work on Yeltsin’s reelection bid. Every week, Dresner sent the White House the Yeltsin campaign’s internal polling. And before traveling to meet Yeltsin in April, Clinton asked Dresner what he should say in Moscow to boost his buddy’s campaign.
Michael Meadowcroft, a Briton who led the election-observer team of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, later claimed there had been widespread voter fraud, which he had been pressured not to expose.
Thomas Graham, who served as the chief political analyst at the U.S. embassy in Moscow during the campaign, later conceded that Clinton officials knew the election wasn’t truly fair. “This was a classic case,” he admitted, “of the ends justifying the means.”
@@almazblanco6676 My country interferes with everybody and if the interference doesn't work we pull off a coup.
What Pozner said in the introductory speech is absolutely true. When hostility comes from the west towards a country, those anti-western people in that country always say to others, 'see.... we told you so.'
So were the 3rd and forth interventions. We all agree that Russia should be in the club but only when they do their laundry first. This is the only difference in the speeches.
... русские - варвары.
Does this go the other way? I suppose we should take seriously the fact that Russia has been relentlessly propagandizing its citizens to hate the west, to have nothing but suspicion for the outside world, to be subservient to a cynical, malicious, moronic tyrant. In other words, anti-western sentiment, now written with the blood of innocent Ukrainians, is allowing those who were sceptical and suspicious of Russia to say "See? We told you so!“
Indeed, Pozner was 200% correct
"NATO is not offensive alliance." Oh yeah, I'll remember that quote
Hello! 2022 now I'd love to know what you think now😉
I thought membership was voluntary?
@@upheaver на случай, когда тебя наконец разбанят в гугле ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Операции_НАТО
They discuss the wrong topic. They must discuss why the US killed half a million of people in Iraq for no reason at all, and is still there, created chaos in the middle east, thousands of refuges, supported ISIS and extremests ,armed them, attacked Lybia, Syria, Afghanistan - all countries that are on the other continent thousands miles from US.
shut up, it's taboo. nothing happened. forget it.
Don't forget the economic war and war it is that America is waging against Venezuela and now Iran and China and that they have been waging against Russia ever since the USSR collapsed. I can't even imagine why Russia would want to trust America or Europe when they promised not to move NATO any closer to Russia when they agreed to tare down the Berlin Wall. They didn't waste any time at all in breaking that promise and moving NATO right up to Russia's borders and completely surrounding her.
@@RonzigtheWizard Nobody takes care about any promises. Russia, UK and USA had agreement if Ukraine removes nuclear weapon they will protect our borders. We got rid of nuclear weapon and as a result we have Crimea under Russia and war in Eastern part. In Ukraine people didn't think about joining NATO but now most of the people are ready to join anything to be safe from our neighbor. USA doesn't create enemies of Russia, it's Putin himself.
@@oleksiifedosov579 Naybe the US should have not toppled the government of Ukraine and installed an Anti Russian regime in its place in 2014.
Ronzig the Wizard p
Pretty much everything Hayden asserts what is wrong with Russia, may be said quite confidently about the US.
Clue ; compare what countries are under siege (sanctions) by Russia with those under siege by the US.
Compare the number of US military bases (over 1000) all over the so called free world and the number of nations the US has bombed and invaded for regime change (interventions), with the stark lack of all these warring activities.
Compare the number countries whose wealth and assets are exploited by extreme US globalists with the lack of anything like it that can be attributed to the US.
How is that wherever a war is going on the US is virtually always involved in some way.
The US has never been bombed or invaded, or had foreign military bases within or (unlike Russia) even close to its borders.
Is the US pursecution of whistle blowers like Manning, Assange and others not an indication of US hypocrisy about free speach on a global scale never mind in the US.
One could go on and on and on.
Bottom line there is trillions to be made out of waging proxy wars all over the world, selling weapons, invading and exploiting (plundering) the resources of countries not equipped to defend themselves from the military and economic might of the US.
Well, this comment hasn’t aged so well. The United States, as complicated and cynical and clumsy and mixed up as it is, looks virtually angelic compared to Russia. How much territory has the United States annexed in the last hundred years? Everyone knows it could have, but it didn’t. My God what would Russia have done if it had the power of the US? Well, we know what it DID do with far less power, and it’s not a record to be proud of.
We also know that Russia has been actively trying to destroy sovereign countries, and failing that to annex whatever parts of those countries it can. So much for lazy juvenile what aboutism.
@@dingai The Washington Corporatocracy has about 750 military bases in 80 countries spread accross the world mostly thousands of miles beyond America's borders. A country hosting a foreign army is a (some illegally) occupied territory. An occupied territory is a colony, in all but name. You won't understand what this means and probably never will, even when it adversely affects you more acutely.
This is because as George Bush reiterated in 2001, "You can fool some of the people all of the time, these are the ones to concentrate." you are one of the fooled.
After watching this debate, looking at people saying jokes and laughing at them, i have got a feeling of the fact that we are all humans. Yes, we argue a lot, we are fighting but what is the sense? We are people of Earth, we are killing each other just because we were born in different sides of the planet. I am russian and i do not consider west to be a danger but looking at american policy in the arabic countries like Libya, Iran, Syria, changing regimes (even though they are athoritarian) and devastating these countries, i am asking myself - is it really safe? What is the chance that being "democratic" my country won't become a raw material exporter for the west like ukraine?
West countries have their double standards. They are against some dictators while being for others.
What about russians, i can surely say that in the next 20-30 years Russia will stay athoritarian as the soviet generation does not need in "democracy". They have enough money to buy what they want, to say what they want. Of course corruption is a problem in Russia. By the way, what about saudi arabia? It is not democratic, so why don't you locate your nato forces here? Everything is because of money.
I have a lot to write here because i study international history and relationships but it would take hours. I just say that every country has its own path and you should not interrupt it.
P.s. 38 minute, ukranian saying that there is a freedom of speech in Ukraine. Nobody commented on this, then, i will. There is no freedom of speech in Ukraine, channels are controlled by rich people, main government channels are controlled by president, who is also a businessman (which is illegal), Poroshenko. Many people who are against his regime are imprisoned. There were lots of examples of breaking international law, however the west hasn't reacted. Double standards, again. Ukraine is more athoritarian than Russia just because most of its population is senior and has no knowledge of law and rights. Still west does not react just because it benefit from current ukranian regime.
Many here in europe, especially in my country (germany), have not forgotten that Russia gave up its sovjet empire peacefully. What other country has done this? Mistakes were made on both sides since then but that's politics, people are imperfect and greedy and selfish. I really see Russia and Europe as close allies in 20-30 years, just like France and Germany are now.
The United States have no authoritarianism (yet) but still show no respect for european nations. 'Fuck the EU' has also not been forgotten. There is a reason Macron talked of an european army without the US. If you ask ordinary people here, they speak out against american imperialism and do not see Russia as their enemy. A Europe that moves away from the US is a Europe that will move closer to Russia, this is inevitable.
советую тебе прочитать "Гомо Сапиенс"
Just the fact that each side applauded the other's speech is a step in the right direction, and sadly the west tried to extract as much profit as possible as opposed to offering the proverbial olive branch during the tumultous post communist period out of Russia.
I am from former Communist Hungary emigrating to Canada in 82 and rather see Russia as a world leader and equal partner than not.
Lastly, we cannot equate or try to mold Russian politics to any other in the world, it is apples versus oranges, and not many even acknowledges that fact.
Никита Зозуля great words! “Every country has its own path and you should not interrupt it”👍
Don't worry West will come to Russia after bombing middle east, china and south america. Look at the map your country is already surrounded by american troops. its just about time when will they start bombing russia.
The opening apeaker said this " Rusia is so assertive with intervention.." it is the US, not the other way around.
The thinking of the CIA guy is one of the reasons why Ukraine is such a mess.
If Russia was brought in from the cold, Ukraine crisis could have been averted. It's good to learn from history and make friends with your enemies with one eye opened.
Maybe Russia should have been brought in from the cold in the mid 1990's. Instead, we chose continued a cold war mentality with NATO expansion.
Nato is a self defense alliance. We in Eastern Europe asked to join because we feel directly threatened by Russian expansionism.
@michaelmazowiecki9195 we in Europe are experiencing the consequences of NATO'S "self defence" war in Libya NORTH AFRICA. Now a failed state and haven for terrorists (Manchester bombing) and a contributor for the migrant crises. If NATO expands to threaten another countries security, don't be surprised of the result.
OMG polish man not grown for debates this level..
A very figurative moment was in 32:45 when the CIA representative started speaking another language when he was asked if the US also meddles in other countries elections.
Radek Sikorski showed his hand straight away, he couldn't even applaud the speakers for the other side of the arguement, just shows how bitter a person he actually is.
I also find it hilarious that the speakers from the west didn't mention the missiles we've installed or the fact that Putin asked to join NATO after he was first elected but was rejected, we in the west put Russia in the cold, we forced their position.
According to the Polish speaker, Russia-Western relations were all going swimmingly and great until 2014, when they suddenly changed out of nowhere, completely unilaterally. Bizarre...
Vladolf had been conducting an information war and meddled in former USSR republics for a very long time.
Appeasement of Putin was rife, his requests about NATO was trolling, he was told to apply but NATO is rule based so a non-starter for someone of Putin's ilk.
What gave Putin the right to use Novichuk?
Radek Sikorski is brilliant and clear sighted.
The argument of Poznan is disingenuous, projection of blame for things his absolutist Czar could moderate.
@@Muzikman127 Yeah, I often wonder what could've possibly happened back then to sour relations. Hmmmm 🤔🤫
@@roguetrooper9871maybe I'm misunderstanding your comment, but I think you really haven't understood the point I was making, which is about relations _pre_ 2014
@@Muzikman127 I know what you mean mate, just a bit of sarcasm from me. 👍
NATO is a defense organization ) LOL) ask this in Belgrade and who bombed and destroyed Yugoslavia and the capital In the centre of Europe in 1999) or Iraq in 2003. or who bombed and destroyed Libya in 2011.or Syria in 2013. when something is allowed to be done by one and it is forbidden to do by another it's so democratic) and why when Putin offered to admit Russia to NATO in 2000 he was refused? Yes, in 1993 agreed on the inviolability of the borders of Ukraine, but in 1990 also agreed, with the unification of Germany and the fall of the Berlin Wall, that NATO would not advance an inch to the east. and who was the first to break the agreement? and why? then there was no reason for this. after Yugoslavia Libya Syria Iraq, Russia is right what fears NATO. NATO was created against the USSR. and became against Russia with the beginning of expansion in 1999. 90% of all time allowed to answer to the right side of the table. it's so democratic) I've seen enough. it's obvious to me who is to blame for what is happening today.
czcams.com/video/hQ58Yv6kP44/video.html. Munich 2007. Enough is enough,
I'd like to see full version of this
29:48, If Russia defines acceptable security as controlling the behavior of its near neighbors in terms of what its near neighbors consider to be their government, their policies and their relationships, that simply can't stand...
But if Washington does it, even with interests beyond their neighbors, that is perfectly ok.
I'm NOT surprised by the Polish speaker. In Poland, they actually teach HOW TO HATE RUSSIA. The Polish speaker has so much anger in him he couldn't contain himself and a bit UNPROFESSIONAL, too...
It must've hurt so badly they'd lost! 🤣
This is not hate it's called common sense. They are always remembered how was it in soviet times. Can you blame them you righteous poser?
@@ciprianpopa1503 Yes, because the English and the French for example have far more hostility against one another. My fathers generation went to war with one another in Bosnia, should I still hate Bosnians? Croats? Serbs? Albanians? Are we talking about peace, are we talking about justice or simply emotional outbursts from people who should know better.
@@vtheman1850 English and French never invade each other. You cannot put on the same level the examples you gave. When you have the example of Russia invading Ukraine not long ago one cannot talk about emotional outburst but legitimate concern.
If us stop trying influencing Russian neighbors , Russia will certainly not do what it does.
Ha ha .... How on earth does Hayden keep a straight face when he accuses Russia of military aggression ?
Dodged the question he was directly asked about accepting the outcome of a second vote in Crimea.
Practice....he is CIA
This comment aged like milk lol!
What is this "democracy" we are asking the Russians to participate in within their own borders? It is just a word used by the west to claim moral superiority but when this democracy proves against the west's interest it is ignored. I refer here to the massive vote in Crimea to remain with Mother Russia!
Plebiscites conducted by authoritarian regimes have been used in the past, they simply have no legitimacy.
An illegal annexation undermines peace between sovereign states, so unrecognised.
When Sikorski talked about the "crimea Anschluss", I got a cold feeling. He compared this situation with Nazi Germany and apparently didn't understand what was happening. Germany was under enormous economic pressure over the Verssail Treaty. That was "the" or at least one of the drivers for the political rise of the Nazi party. And now he is proposing that we should do the same with Russia. Well, good luck to Poland. You will be one of the first victims in the event of an escalation. Not the first time, do not get used to it...
And as for the Americans, they have the least right to accuse someone of interfering in internal affairs. That's as clear as water. Period
If we didn't treat Russia as an enemy, we wouldn't need NATO any more. But NATO wants to expand, so it needs Russia urgently, not as a friend but as an enemy.
US Senator John McCain gave a speech to the demonstrators in Kiev in 2013. And now the Americans claim they had nothing to do with it. What the hell is a US senator doing at a demonstration in a foreign country? And how can you be so bold as to claim that you have nothing to do with the coup?
Not only do many Russians live in Crimea, Russia also has a strategic military base there. So how can you believe that Russia would not react to this?
So the Americans actively intervened in the affairs of a direct neighbour of the Russians and immediately hoped to make a strategic base inaccessible to the Russians. And now they claim that the attitude to Russia results from his reaction to this almost warlike action?
That is breathtaking.
Germany wasn't under "enormous economic pressure over the Versailles treaty". The entire globe was reeling from the great depression and the Nazis' ballooning public spending on military rearmament meant that they needed to invade other countries to maintain that level of spending. In any case, the Nazis' always planned on conquest, the idea that the primary, or even a major, reason for Nazi aggression as economic does not fit with the facts.
@@Red1Green2Blue3 "reason for Nazi aggression as economic does not fit with the facts"
Read -> Think -> Comment
Try again.
The Polish guy didn't represint himself in the best light, that's for sure. The Poles have an understandibly deep seethed hate for Russians and their 'interventions' but if they will not put it aside, we will always remain as we are now
Is it just my impression, or have to anti Russia faction get more time to speak?
chaolla park Just your impression
chaolla park, agree.
They cutted all the good responses from the Pro motion faction.
Of course!! As always....
@chaolla park
Hate is always louder than balance and objectivity!
Big respect to Mr. Pozner and unfortunately there are some cheap clouns over there.
why all the stone faces in the audience when Pozner is speaking?
When an intelligent person speaks, everyone listens in silence.
Why is this not available in the US?
it seems the part is missing where V. Posner is speaking on 31:57
Huh, I thought, and posted a comment saying the same thing. Seems like a sneaky edit. Perhaps just for brevity, nevertheless, quite strange...
I mean maybe he was just cut off that quickly, but it doesn't sound natural, seems like an edit to me...
Russia is not in need to be brought in neither from the cold nor from the heat. What is necessary is to bring the British bullies back in reality and in their normal senses!
Why is the format so limiting to the speakers. The moderator seems to be rushing them all along to answer as quickly as possible, sometimes at the expense of actually having reached their point.
Terribly inefficient way of communicating.
Where's the fire if the event gets extended by 20 min?
How might a Polish man help this debate? Like asking a Czech to give a sane opinion of Chamberlain.
Polish looks so rustic and uncultured
Certainly they are more cultured than you Russian trolls
Russia,China and India should work towards forming a NATO like alliance under BRICS that is what is required in 21 st century.
America and nato don't let them to do that
Genius idea! Sort of like an anti-US axis or smth 😂
So what gives the former head of CIA the sense of superiority when it comes to the KGB？
Only a snake can spot a snake
If only the world had listened to Sagramoso.... What is happening today would have been prevented.
Russia was always hated
The 'pro' side win even though kamerad Pozner didn't have as many chance to speak as the 'against' side did.
Its better for everyone to be friendly with Russia
That aged well
What the West also miss portraits is countries "running from Russia". The border countries have a lot of links with Russia but they also want cooperation with EU. The EU made a big error (on purpose I think) to put those countries in a position where they have to chose either EU either Russia. They cannot do that without damaging themselves but the West still does it for geopolitical reasons.
absolutley!
great comment
I think, it was not an error, but deliberate move. And not as of Europeans, but by US. Another Red Scare is profitable for some groups.
Nie prawda! My sąsiedzi Rosji chcemy być w NATO bo się jej boimy. Mam 45 lat i pamiętam jak jest pod Rosyjskim butem.!!!
"The EU" didn't do anything. Those countries chose to join. Those countries have 0% intent or capability to invade Russia, so Russia complaining about security is nonsensical.
In this debate, I take pro motion position. Pozner is an intelligent, clever person with true journalistic values. From now on I will follow his interviews, seminars to master my skills. Saying about his opponents, I should state that the Polish man is an experienced politician who has demonstrated fantastic public speaking skills along with an ability to lead a tactical dialog! Thank you for an awesome discussion!
At the 30 minute point, the CIA guy is precisely describing the actions of the US towards international relations.
Why did they cut it in half?
USA's expenditure on the military is ten times that of Russia and more than the next seven countries i.e. Russia, China, UK, France etc.. The USA has more than 800 bases around the world. Russia has two!
Russia itself takes up so much latitude & longitude it effectively has 2,500+ bases. Check a map some time.
@@DataWaveTaGo well Russia should really protect itself, especially when there's so much hatred towards it.
@@DataWaveTaGo On its own soil. There's a difference, you know.
@@DataWaveTaGo that's absurd!!!!!!!
@@ineshvaladolenc6559 It's own soil? RU is a cobbled together prison of 21 captured regions. People in Moscow & Saint Petersburg consider the other regions to be inferior.
Radek Sikorski is so funny! The best comedian in Poland ever. Except his not.
You can have different opinions currently towards Russian state or russian democracy, however at some point everyone will face the fact that Russia is an independent and powerful country deserving much more respect rather than many other of her so called "westernized" counterparts. And, I agree, the biggest irony is that the process of "demonization" of Russia will bounce back and it will hit the attackers themselves. Badly.
Pozner say that internet in Ukraine is controlled by goverment and it`s not controlled by goverment in Russia. This statement devalues everything he said before and after.
Don`t forget about who pays Pozner`s bills in Moscow 😉
It's true, though.
Pozner is Superstar!
V.Posner Is brilliant, particularly from a European perspective. Russians are our neighbors and peaceful relationships between neighbors is essential if Europe is to thrive and develop together. The US General should have nothing to do with this meeting and his is only interested in US security. The future is European and Russia is a part of Europe.
Putin has not started the War in the Arab countries, it was the so called “ democracies” who have caused chaos, mayhem and destruction in Afghanistan
NATO is part of the problem, so is the U.N. they don't actually strive for altruism. Russia is a super power that has its finger in every bag because of the paranoia during the Cold War. NATO might look like it's fighting a good war but there is no such thing. No one seems to look at the real problem Chechnya. Kuwait. Places in the world where slavery is still rampant what is NATO doing to prevent that?
Polish man is mistaken he is a clown autocrat,
One of the best iq2 debates ive heard but I just wish there was more of it!!
Agree! Also, -the Polish guy should open a comedy club with Zelensky....
I wish this was a longer debate
Sikorski is not debating, he is playing a clown for the auditory.
Maidan - Spontaneous combustions where by magic appeared Victoria Nooland and McCain and American money.
Popa Dorin didn't u see Mcain in Miadan Square publicly pleading for America to support the democratic revolution... He was there as a private citizen of the US not sent by America.... Unlike Russian, Americans are free to align themselves to whosoever they please with no fear of being shot in the street...
Jentul Jay Shut up.
More time given obviously to the right side. Add a totally rabid, illogical, crassly biased Polish pro-US, plus an ex-CIA 4-star General, plus an absurd and applaud-begging question from an officious but anonymous pro us servant in the audience. Also all this on a BBC program!
We must admire Polzner for playing along. He has been on both sides of the camera, on both sides of Russian media world and was a voice of reason in the West, ages before every one else on the panel. If you look at that Polish fellow in the eyes, you will see the CIA and NATO and the fond dream of wealth and fame and power which was in the Golden XVth Century. The current Polish neurotic stance against Russia is directed at the Soviet Union. Those people have not realized that Gorbachev happened, and they want their revenge with the assistance of NATO and the USA. Not a way to cool things down in Europe.
Amen
You were right.. It was such ashame not to listen that NATO is the threat to Russia. It was not acknowledged by West that democracy act of pure vote of Crimean people which disapointed russians all over the world ans shown that democrasy rules are only pretty words and doesnt have anything behind in realpolicts.. Such a stupid policitical officials with personal reasons for revenge are the key reason of the disasted happen.. Now we all switched to war mode. And what scares is the Russia will not move back as pro - western any more in the nearest decades or maybe centuries..
Vladimir speak some good points. Yet, Russia needs to be more opened to it's people as well as the world.
We are open, but again and again EU and US batting Russian hand away and always sayd Russia is bad and use double standarts on my country
@@pavelmesherskii881 very true Pavel. I hope future generations can overcome this.
@@pavelmesherskii881 As a European, I'm sorry!
Russia is European! Culturally, spiritually, and historically! Maybe not like the French, the British, or the Germans, but in its own, just as beautiful, Russian way.
It's our governments, they don't work for our people's interests, they all work for America. It's America directing our policy towards Russia through the media (Russophobia), NATO bloc as military suppression, and IMF as economic suppression.
Russia (and maybe Serbia) is the only true FREE European country. All the rest of us are American vassals.
Stay strong, Russia, keep on fighting the good fight. Many of us in Europe are rooting for you, although our leaders will not say. Our leaders only say and do what America wants them to say and do.
America has cruelly divided Ukrainians from Russians, and Russians from the rest of Europe. Evil empire!
But we the people have no voice. It's supposed to be a free and democratic voice, yet us the people don't get to choose.
Let's defeat Nazism together, and throw away our American shackles.
Hopefully one day we'll be reunited again, but America has to go!
Urrraa!
Same old story. Best friends with thugs when there's big money to make.
Fierce advocates for democracy and human rights when there's no big money to make.
Michael Hayden.
The two speaking for the motion put the other two to shame. How the undecideds were swung by the opponents sentimental shallow tosh I don't know.
I would like to be a mediator between the two sides since I know how to be neutral and have no interest to take any one's side. I would also take Mr. Pozner to be my partner as a mediator.
44:17 I mean... he just destroyed himself there
About M. Hayden, after seeing the movie "a good american" and reading C. Johnson's "empire trilogy" and Weiner's "legacy of ashes", I can't take him very seriously.
It was literally sensing the hate which was exhaled by this polish "friend"... There is absolutely no difference between him and nazis. It was so obvious.....
Pozner was too soft. Because of his softness he did not counter the allegations of Russia meddling in USA elections even though no proofs have been shown. But I know his views and he tries to play the middle man but he fails to communicate what is the Russian position truly. He has also been misrepresented when he was introduced as being a supporter of the Russian government. He is not in open opposition but is critical on some issues. The problem is that in the West not a lot of people know what is the Russian position on different issues and it is often misrepresented intentionally. Just watch "The Putin interviews" and you will understand more.
is it me, or is there a nifty edit at around 31:56? Perhaps not, but it seems like the discussion was cut, and the next question overlaid.
Why not full version. The debate format is messy
I was expecting Hayden to say something really interesting and exciting, turn me in to beleif that i am the second kind man... Hm, no he made me think he is wrong for sure...
Anton B w
Anton B sse
This Polish dude is trying to be clever with his quips but he's simply making a fool of himself. This is a serious debate not a comedy show.
Isn't the "KGB in Putin's eyes" a John McCain quote?
Are you cutting out the answers to most of the questions? I don't get what's going on.
Anti-Western sentiment, also known as anti-Atlanticism or Westernophobia, refers to broad opposition, bias, or hostility towards the people, culture, or policies of the Western world.
So, - the automatic presumption from kick off is that Russia is 'outside'??
Tell me about Ukraine Internet Control, please. I live in Ukraine, so I am really curious.
Pozner as always.
@ Venetica Zero
Well it ain't your fault, living in ukraine. Nevertheless, ukraine is blocking access to a number of countries, some of them are in Europe
@@DushanGrujich well, you try to be funny but it isn't your best asset.
@@ciprianpopa1503 If you think that living in ukraine with neo-Nazism on the rise is easy then go and live there yourself!
@@dushangrujich5101" If you think that living in ukraine with neo-Nazism on the rise is easy then go and live there yourself!"
Q: What time is? A: It's raining outside.
This is the level of conversation you are "able" to. Can you stick something more meaningful to the initial raised question ? I mean you are so brain washed about any one criticizing Russia as being nazist that you through it in every sentence. Go away you droid.
@@ciprianpopa1503 To have a meaningful conversation, as a starter, you would have to improve your English.
Vladimir Pozner has a strong American accent
Duvee Hie ‘cos he’s American... daaaah
He lived in America as a child.
had George Galloway been on the debating stage the motion would have been won by a massive majority
I’ve always admired how Pozner carries himself and effectively gets his points across to the audience.
I'm a little surprised there was no discussion of how cozy the West is with countries like Saudi Arabia, China, etc. and a discussion of why relations with Russia can't at least be equally warm (at least in the context of 5 years ago.)
The CIA guy looks like the emperor from star wars, lol.
A lot of comments who didn't like Radek Sikorski's case, but now with 20-20 hindsight he was spot on.
People don't like hearing facts often, Russia was appeased, messages sent which simply didn't affect Putin.
The second speaker is already "conflalting issues".
"Bringing nations together" (emotional appeal) and "security issues" (grand strategy) are two entirely different concepts.
As former director of the CIA he should know, but doesn't say this.
It seems like Polish jokes are true. This is a person who held high office talking. Imagine regular folks.
With the former CIA director on the panel, I now understand why this show is called "Intelligence Squared"!
"Independent press"... Hello from March 2022
That my friends is what one calls LOGIC !!!
In my opinion entire land mass of Europe should join hands to increase their own population in order to deal with shortage of workers ten to 50 years from now.
Unarguably - in a way that nobody can disagree with.
it seams to me that this video is cut in the way to don´t show all the important things