One Size Doesn't Fit All: Democracy is Not Always the Best Form of Government
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- čas přidán 15. 03. 2014
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Democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried. So said Winston Churchill and who would disagree? One man, one vote, the rule of law, equality and a free press. These are the Enlightenment principles the West has developed over the centuries and fought tooth and nail in countless wars to preserve or to propagate.
But is the assumption that democracy always leads to a more liberal and tolerant society correct? Many would argue that it can lead to quite illiberal outcomes especially where there is profound ethnic division. Take for example Yugoslavia. Slobodan Milosovic -- the democratically elected president -- left a legacy of more than 200,000 dead in Bosnia and ethnically cleansed more than 800,000 Albanians from their homes in Kosovo. And what if democracy were installed in Syria? It's not hard to imagine the outcome for the minority groups who for decades have enjoyed the protection of Assad's regime.
Is democracy always the best outcome? Come to Cadogan Hall on March 11 2014, hear the arguments and decide for yourself.
Mr Shevchenko, I'm Singaporean and Singapore is 3rd on that world's richest state list that you have referred to. I would like to remind you that Singapore is not a pure democracy now and it was even an autocratic state in its early days. However it will not have the kind of development if it had followed western-prescribed democracy. I really believe, and agree with Mr Jacques, that every country will need to pursue whatever system that suits them and not pursue democracy just because it works for the west.
doomprox so true. Live and let live. The world should give the freedom to every country to find their own best solution, unless serious humanity issues are detected. No-one has the right to tell others what they should do.
And “democracy works for the west” is also a debatable statement to begin with.
Singapore in history the city of burglars, robbers, smugglers until now. The West (UK) created Singapore to control Indonesia in trade and financial services. Event Singapore control air and sea traffic in Indonesia. Without Western support, Singapore would not be as it is today. It's a part of colonialism...
@@coolcalm1605 Of course, I think Singapore did benefit greatly from being a British colony. But if I may ask, what is your point? That colonialism is good or that Monarchy is good (because Britain was a Monarchy/Oligarchy when they colonised Singapore.)
@@coolcalm1605 ah yes, the west creates all!
If Democracy is the best form of governance than why not have a democratic UN?
😂 un is only for upper class countries . Hahaha hypocrisy of west
Democracy the god that fails, from Hoppe. It is an amazing book explaining why democracy is NOT the best form of governance. Democracy is only better then "Benign" dictatorship because you have more FREEDOM, remember what she said in the begging your success depends on 3 thing, your hard workings, the government not screwing u up and other people not putting a government that will fuck u up.
By definition, a "benign" dictatorship will NEVER restrain your liberty because it is benign, and if they do it, it is not a benign dictatorship. And it will never end, because there is no democracy, by definition it will be perfect forever. BUT THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS BENIGN DICTATORSHIP.
The only other option to end democracy is libertinism, is anarcho captalism
@@shariqueahmad1050 UN is just controlled by the most powerful countries that work nearly in unison, which are the western countries along with Japan and maybe South Korea.
Other countries may also be powerful like China or Russia but they don't hold the voting power of the combined West
@@adamgillespie3393 Utter rubbish. It is an excuse for western countries to assert their authority. They’ve lost already though, broken from within, and outside other powers are growing.
@@KingKhan20000 true and they want to push it on China to.say look even.china had to change to democracy but democracy is the undoing of national unity in many places
The 2 British speakers especially rosemary Hollis's argument spoke to my African heart. I am certain many Africans will agree with her analysis
I came to the conclusion years ago when I was studying for my A levels in Zimbabwe that western democracy could not help to deliver economically for Africa. It is the reason why you see that china is making inroads into Africa because they focus on infrastructure and building economies while the west constantly harps on about democracy. Now the west is feeling threatened by China's rise in Africa. .
Iro zimbo riri kwese🍿👀
Jamaican here. Our democracy was destroyed in its cradle by the United States and its NGO arms during the Cold War era because our leadership was trying to protect the people from corporate exploitation.
Her argument was unambiguously true. The strength to say no to other powers is a prerequisite to freedom.
@@jeremygardner5987 going to break usain bolt records next year...
Now China owns African nations resources, ports, and their entire futures. The belt and road initiative was a veiled land and resources grab from the start.
How undemocratic it must be for some countries to disrespect and infringe on the rights of other sovereign nations to decide how best to live and govern themselves.
Democracy is good. But it ought to be adapted to the local people considering their history, experiences, compositions and cultures.
That much is agreeable.
i see two realists who respect history vs two idea-worshippers who see the world as a vacuum to be filled with their ideals
Max Jing especially the second guy on the opposition team. Literally paid on pity, sad-guy rhetorics and dumb liners to sway the dumb crowd.
It’s ironic how democracy won in the 20th century for its pragmatic and realistic approach while Soviet Union was very ideological. Now it reverses, the one that is ideological is democracy
I'm Chinese. Let's face the fact, every man for himself and every nation is for themselves. So, why western countries want china to be democratic? They want China surpass US more quickly? They genuine wish Chinese live a better life? LOL. I'm sorry, i really don't think so. So given the fact that China and we Chinese are on our own. We will figure out our way. I, as Chinese, think CCP have done a great job so far. So, please, live and let live. Let's hope Americans back off and get busy with their own problem instead of guiding China what they should do. We are fine. Thank you...
And shall democracy will be the optimal choice of China in the future. I DONT THINK SO.
+孙正峰 Friend. Us Europeans are in the process of proving just how bad and just how easily corrupted democracy is. I wish you all the best. You have weathered the horrors of communism and crazy leadership. And my guess is that you are adamant of not going there again. Thus, you do not need democracy. Just hang on to your memories of the Cultural revolution and the great leap and the other abuses of central authority. And you will be ok.
Also look how Europe burns and exterminates itself. Democracy is no safeguard against selfdestroying insanity.
Martin Andersson Thank you, friend.
+zf s you don't speak for all chinese
risingsun08107 who said i speak for all chinese.
it's implied by the grammar of your comment "we chinese..," "as a chinese...," and so forth
Democracy benefits politicians, not the people!
In the meantime, in the US, we have 100 gun deaths PER DAY (about half are suicides), and 110k overdoses per year. We have a majority of fourth graders who cannot read or write or do basic math. Normal, healthy family life in the US does not exist, exacerbating the issue of pervasive violence (including all-pervasive irritabilitiy, rudeness, incivility, anger and indeed the most violence of anywhere). It is NOT safe to go outside. In St. Petersberg or Shanghai, it IS safe to go outside, even at night. Of course, I'm grateful I can say these negative things (truths) and not be arrested as a subversive. But the issue of poverty, for me, is decisive: in the last forty-five years, some 800 million people have, with government help, lifted themselves out of abject poverty. In this China has done something incredible, something never seen before, in the history of humanity. Also decisive, for me, were the PEW results, about overall feelings of well-being, in China, cited by Martin . In the US, there is no public safety or public order, either one. So indeed I've noticed, when I read the news here, that perhaps we'd ALL be better off with a BENIGN DICTATORSHIP.
There is no correlation between democracy and economic development in Africa
Exactly.....democracy in Africa is nonsense and doesn't work
not only in Africa
Hence why Africa is so poor
@@thomasneedham1224 That doesn't really make sense, European states didn't get rich democratically, its like you're working backward. Remember democracy is incredibly young in the span of world history and many of the richest countries today have long histories of autocracy and monarchical rule.
Democracy is very young indeed compared with the human history, however, it's what is preferred by most counties NOW in the world for different reasons. These reasons are often historically, culturally and economically determined by the citizens of that Country and most importantly their democratically elected government is accountable to the voters by law.
If this debate is held in front of an Indian or Chinese audiences you will get an opposite result.
Or African audience
That's correct bcos in the existing audience, majority are already brainwashed to favor democracy since birth. Their entire lifetime is indoctrinated with democracy is good designed as good vs the evil Communist.
Present People of Western -european developed countries preaching democracy to poor developing countries like(India & China) should realise that the privilegeness they're enjoying comparing to people of other parts were built on other systems suitable to their circumstances by their past generation but not on democracy.
For us, living In Africa I want to see us forging our own form of governance.
Read things fall apart. Democracy is a very bad system,
@@sulayotega9557 Because it's not democracy!
@@collentreefelling9142 What is democracy?
To me democracy is known through any leadership that consistently educates its people towards knowing whats best for them. Because what good for one doesn't necessarily going to be good for the other and only its citizens should decide whats good for them. The problem comes when whether the citizen are well educated to be able to think for themselves on whats actually good for them or not. So if they're not and one among them is and has taking the role of leading and it seems to go well through uplifting them to prosperity and enlightenment i think thats good and it should be their own kind of democracy regardless there's is envy among the type A personalities which is normal.
Respetedallwaysladisandjantelemanpleseexisemesirrespectfullrajeevethankyousomachsirgodblessyousir
Democracy is a road, to achieve something, not the destination.
Journey entered with democracy with economic in all the way .
And what is that "something"?
Idealistically, an ideal democracy would still be better than an ideal (“benign”) dictatorship.
@@alphabeta4028 Higher quality of life, liberty and self-determination for all its citizens.
@@alphabeta4028 Justice, liberty and pursuit of happiness for all people.
USA: mid-east should have democracy
Mid-east: elect anti-western leader
USA: try my bomb
20:02 *DAMN!!!*
That applies in Latin America as well.
Latin America and easy Asia and africa
USA: Ukraine should have democracy, just ignore Russia
Ukraine: elect anti-Russian leader
Russia: try my bomb
USA: fight Russia to the last Ukrainian.
Then USA call for “freedom fighters” to take down the anti western “dictators” to restore “democracy” back😂. While Trump Capitol Hill protestors are deemed as illegal and rioters 😂
the arguement "only 6 of top 30 rich countries don't have democracy" is meaningless. I have checked and 9 of 10 poorest countries are run with democracy. So numbers can be further analysed.
It's difficult to define democracy, but you will recognize it when you don't have it.
I don't think so. Look at China and Russia. The people there insist they live in a democracy, but it's clear to everyone else that that isn't true.
A German philosopher once remarked that democracy and the rule of law simply mean that you do not have to worry every time when the doorbell rings whether it is just the milkman or rather the secret police that wants to imprision you (GeStaPo).
Whether you recognize it when you don't have it is completely beside the point. The question is whether there's something that we ought to be pushing on other countries.
@@xornxenophon3652 The Gestapo came about in a democratic country, unless you're just making a circular argument by defining the best governments as "democratic," in which case, yes, obviously democracies are always best.
@@patrickcleburneuczjsxpmp9558 Nope! Gestapo was created only after all traces of democracy and the rule of law had been abolished by Hitler. It is really that simple!
The argument of the last speaker(Ukraine) is not logical. The majority of the rich country is democracy because they are already in the mature stage of capitalism with huge numbers of middle class who has the ability to supervise the power which is not the case in poor and developing country.
How ironic that they vote at the end of the debate to decide whether democracy is right or not. That is a little bit messed-up.
I cannot believe this happens 8 years ago when I debated with my American friends every day and they slammed me for supporting Chinese system now we see the result.
It’s ironic how democracy won in the 20th century for its pragmatic and realistic approach while Soviet Union was very ideological. Now it reverses, the one that is ideological is democracy
@@ericjiang7986
If I may ask, between a democracy and a technocracy, what is the purpose of a government with respect to its people?
@@ericjiang7986 and now us supporters of China have been proven right ☺️
It’s disappointing that Singapore was not talked about here.
I realized that we don't all know what a democracy basically is and is not. A very good point to ponder
Democracy is everything western at that particular moment. US was democracy in its constitution even when Black and Women could not vote. UK is a democracy even when most of its representatives are not elected by the people. Russia is undemocratic because Putin is too popular, he receives more than 70% approval from his people, much higher than any western leader. They keep electing him. Germany is democratic even if they elected Angela Merkel for 5 terms.
Democracy is when all exercise of state power ultimately originates from the will of the population.
I think it's rather that economic growth will lead to democracy, not the other way around. Which is why democracy only dominated recently with human development.
Well, that's not always right.
@@radioreactivity3561 and who says you are right??
Nope. Most European countries got democracy first and prosperity second. They generally have better gdp per capita and score better in happiness index than dictatorships like China too.
@@NoobieToob what the heck is a happiness index ? Some of these indices are quite useless btw ...remember in 2019 when it was said that the US and UK are the countries best prepared for a Pandemic.....how did the 'Pandemic preparedness index ' work out for them when it was put to the test...in a real Pandemic
@@Avaricumstudios It worked out relatively fine dude. The pandemic was a shitshow everywhere. In less than a year a new vaccine was tested and put to effective use in the western world whereas China is still coping today and hiding their recent deaths when rest of the world has largely moved on too.
The fact is that richness creates democracy, not democracy creates richness. Hope the world understand this.
徐进 And this is a conclusion from economic researches.
Dongxu Zhou If you want you can give a look at Swiss GDP in 1848 and at Swiss political institutions in 1848... You'd be surprised.
All long standing democracies in the west started out having high rates of poverty and much less access to technology to better their lives then today.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 so capitalist thought.
@@Achcautli69 i fear socialist
I come from Subsaharan Africa and in a democracy, and honestly if people were given the choice whether to live in a democracy or a dictatorship where they don't have to worry if their child will live to 5 years ,if they will have water to drink or food to eat ,if the hospital will have a doctor or medicine ... I know what they will choose
This is so true for me as well. I live in Nigeria, and I've seen older people say they preferred our past dictators because at least the dictators could guarantee us security and they were responsible for the economic development that our current democracy destroyed.
Greetings! Well, I think that some so called "democracy" is just a noun. Because a democracy is meant to be a regime that do take care of the population... If this is not the case, it is not a democracy in a sense... In the opportunity, I wish that Jesus, the Name above all names (Phillipians 2), bless you/family/friend readers and may you feed from His Word, and Salvation!
I agree, democracy is not really for developing countries. In my country, we have five year terms of rule and we've changed presidents 6 times. The problem with this has been that the country doesn't have a vision, direction and self definition. Every new president comes with his own ideas which do not stay long to be proved or work before a new government takes over.
With democracy comes inconsistency and loss of direction. In a world where every idea should stand, we are left with million voices to hear from and in the end fail to move forward.
Libya under gadaffi was a good example
@@zenxel The first service the state, in truth any form of government, ever gave in the existence of our species was the service of protection, think about it "Listen tribe, me says if you listen quick, me lead tribe to hit with axe enemy tribe who steal game from ancestor land", you can imagine every iteration of this message for the next 200,000 years, from mesopotamians and egyptians, to romans and greeks, to indian and chinese right up to this age of highly developed countries capable to produce AI, nuclear weapons and spaceships.
An state which fails to ensure security of their own people is a state soon to be wiped out.
I've come to the table a little late; Never-the-less, great debate & questions by audience.
Would love to see more of this.
2 very witty remarks from the audience: (i) we are debating on whether democracy is the best form of government, and yet the speakers had no consensus on what democracy is/should look like; (ii) the other side is arguing that democracy is always the best form of government and yet none of them represent democracy from a developing economy perspective.
in the dominant narrative of the fragmentation of modern social thought, the most important sphere that affects our lives -the economy-is not questioned as being undemocratic (dictatorial even). Hence the acceptance of representative democracy (the form of democracy as the best shell for capitalism) as the ‘least of evils’.
Correct!!
😂
Ok
True.. Even if the country considered as democratic, still the democracy is not properly practiced by the citizens..
There is a long list of undemocratic practice that demonstrate that the issue is not about citizens, but about state, power and class relation, feudal and capitalist institutions.
Two examples: a football player gets in 16 minutes what a nurse earns in a week.
Support of dictatorship and complicity in crimes.
Those only two examples which are outside democratic say.
Universal Truth is not always measured in mass appeal.
Democracy is not about truth.
There is no such thing as universal truth
Is this offered in other languages????
@@user-ok8gp4vx3t is that a universal truth?
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This is amazing short, sweet, straight to their points. Am loving this
It would be nice to have an updated discussion about this topic!
It's funny how democracy was democratically voted to victory in a debate concerning democracy.
Only available in English?
This hasn't aged well at all man
@Kwok Wai Lai you couldn't be further from the truth in 2022. Learn from it.
In the end, the audience voted for the wrong question in support of the chinese speaker & the Ukrainian speaker. They didn't really vote for whether every country should pursue democracy in their present status. For sure, not every country can organise a fair contest for democratic governance in their existing level of existence, so most democracies need to go through a period of benigh dictatorship rather like having a capable CEO of a company.
@Kwok Wai Lai oh my, your comment has aged really well, sadly
In todays world privately 18/11/2022, 8 years after the debate, most arguments would miserably flop, collapse & go extinct.I like the lady who pointed to the absence or lack of the most afflicted participants in this debate. Theres alot of "pretence" of democracy when they are absolute dictatorship.
00:00 Introduction to the debate on democracy
02:21 Arguments for democracy not being the best form of government
15:56 Government's lack of power in underdeveloped countries
18:08 Democracy's correlation with economic development
30:00 Discussion on economic development in China and its impact on democracy
42:14 Discussion on correlation between democracy and economic development
43:01 Personal experience and preference for democracy
44:02 Announcement of debate results and conclusion
Depriving people in other countries the right to choose their form of government is not democratic. Andriy does not quite understand democracy and that what works in one nation doesn't necessarily work in another. Martin is outstanding, closely followed by Rosemary. Ian did okay while, of course, Andriy was not that great at all.
Baby girl infanticide is no more in China. It's about tradition, backwardness, poverty, and in some degree policy.
A guy travelled to India a few years ago and passed by a remote village. He told me that he witnessed a baby girl infanticide there. The newborn's father basically soaked the baby girl's head in the water of a basin. The villagers told him it's very common in the villages.
Baby girl infanticide is still going on in India. Of course, the western media don't have any interest to report this kind of story in India
Now, worse than dictatorship happens in India because majority finds it okay to kill anyone from minority. Government is happy that it gets votes for allowing this.
Democracy without strong independent just judiciary, clean police, checks on corruption by government, independent press and strong opposition are must for success of a democracy.
India is a classic example of failure of democracy. Human rights abuses to freedom nothing exists.
and terrifying caste system.....can not believe that still happen in a ‘democracy’ country...
@Karan Kumar we don't have castism shows that you are a previledged person
This problem has been eradicated in China because of development, not because of democracy. It was a problem rooted in tradition combined with poverty. The lady who asked that question doesn't know what she was talking about.
@@rexch5998 Don't forget linguistic Fascism too exist in discriminating other lingo!
Democracy in 70 years has not given Indians enough food today they rank 104 out of 117 countries on the WORLD HUNGER INDEX. Can some one tell me how Democracy has helped majority of Indians?
good argument based on reality and figure.
you are commenting that without getting shot no? Voice of people is voice of God. There is no going back from that. But we cant forget our own culture either. What the west did for Japan and Korea wont work for India and China
In China they learned how to feed one another, didn't ask democracy to help, and they did pretty good with Communism, that it's so bad for indians.
Did other forms of government in the previous thousands years of history give Indian people enough bread?
@@MrKarpovy good question and the answer is yes. There is evidence even upto late 19th century of local authorities and the rich joining together to procure and distribute grain whenever there was a famine. Also religious institutions of all kinds daily distribute food since forever.
Its a perfect sentence said by lady.
One size doesn't fit every where. It should always hard enough in morality and without curruption 💖👍
"...without corruption." It seems that is impossible.
Mr. Bremmer acutally said it well, China knows that well, they might need to create a more democratic system in the future to satisfy people. The goverment needs to adapt according to economic development, culture and history, education of people. With the economic level of people elevated, the peopole will start to think to be more politically involved and to have more say about how to run their own country. This opinion is exactly the same as Professor Jacques, the political system evolves with each country's culture, history and ecomical level. We can not force any country to adopt the Western democratic system by ignoring those factors. The best way to bring the world to "democracy" is to address the poverty and elevate the economic status of people. Then people will start to ask for more political right and think how to run the country.
"Growth is not the only thing that matters in the world" You can easily say that if you are from a developed country
Absolutely right 👏🏿
well then wealth is the only thing that matters not growth.
@@milesdunstan-daams4855 the obtainment of wealth is growth
@@stanleywang7367 yeah but if your already wealthy you dont need growth.
@@milesdunstan-daams4855 which was precisely the point made
A wrong question to debate. The right question is: when is the right time for democracy?
The right question is: Is there only one type of Democracy?
@@UnierseTruth The rigter question: is Democracy better fried or cooked?
The right question is : Can Developed & Rich Western democracy countries will let poor developing countries to be little less democracy in their early stage of economic growth as they also compromised democracy in their early stages of development?
Should you take part in the decision making of any that impacts you in some way meaningfully?
True, everyone's development has its own time but it does not mean that we compromise with non-democratic regimes.
I love these debates!
80% Oligarchy 20% Democracy in the large western countries
There is NO perfect political system in the world. Each has its own pros and cons. The success and real benefit
And also, is not the system by itself, but the government, the real system that they use is often different than the one they claim to use
It is interesting to see and judge these arguments over 8 years later 😊
and it's funny how democracy only wins with ideological arguments in the sense that they are not grounded in reality. the reality is that africa has been devastated by democracy, latin america and poor south asian countries. Democracies only work when the country already is flourishing and even that is not for sure.
@@aminekakla10 dig deeper you notice we people of the planet are all spiritually sick and confused. The ways we govern show symptoms of the disease. We are living in a global village, where we have no choice but to come together, and solve our problems collectively, while old habits of thinking are keeping us apart. So we need spiritual remedy, rather than to worry about the aspirin we take 😂 or the type of Band-Aids we use 😂
@@mrlool1991 what about the city on the hill, America, in the last 2 years?
@@aminekakla10 A country with a high level of corruption cannot be considered as a democracy. I studied in political science and for me the definition is clear. A democracy is a form of government that elects representatives through free elections, where political disagreements are expressed freely, there is an independent media acting as a check & balance, a constitution with a judicial system that can censor unconstitutional laws and is also independent from political interference, a plurality expressed in the public discourse, within the legislative body and with a constitutional right to protest peacefully and a strong civil society to express that plurality. I might forget a few other criteria but if democracy was only a matter of votes and freedom of speech and expression, it would be ease the work of political scientists. LOL These are definitely essential elements but insufficient. A society where corporations can buy politicians or political power is an oligarchy, not a democracy even if people vote and are free to express themselves. However, a society where corporations do not rule and the government is improving the qualify of life of his citizens who are overall satisfied is not a democracy if political dissidence is illegal.
@@mrlool1991 the Europeans 🇪🇺 🇺🇸 & japan split China into a lil slave mini banana states. CCP saved the world from 1.5billion( 2-2.5 billion if there was no 1 child policy) from mass starvation and migration. Let’s be real now
No Africans, no south Americans am sure it would have been a different result. Thanks for the lady who pointed that out.
"Suppose you live in a small underdeveloped country dependent on investment and aid from the developed world for you to achieve a halfway decent standard of living and gainful employment. Whether elected or not, your government will have to bow to the dictates of multinationals and international financial institutions whose priorities are profits and loan repayments, not your well-being." Very well said, I would also add when it's aid, in most cases ideologies and values that are different than what you believe in may be imposed on you. Which is why it is very important for developing countries specially African countries who are rich in natural resources to insist on making trade deals that are equal and mutual benefit. Most importantly, it is very essential having righteous, honest, qualified and accountable leaders in all positions so that the proceeds from trading are invested back into the country and not just for their own personal use, family or even tribe. Hiring the best minds in building the country and creating an economy that provides opportunities not just for the generation of today but for future generations as well.
I feel like Democracy isn’t a way of governing. Democracy is more of a way to find how you want to be governed.
I'm amazed how stupid people are.
Shevchenko is only talking to peoples feelings, a real politician, using death of brave people to promote his views. Despite ukraine having president elected in democratic way that was put down in undemocratic way, he still has the balls to equivocate what democracy is. Stating that 3 countries out of 20 were not democratic was redundant because with basic math we can expect that there would be more democracies. The fact is that most of the powerful nations that were democracies come from christian -> enlightenment (unlike ottomans or japan that were not democratic or christian), enhanced with imperialism forced other countries into becoming democracies. Against motion continues to equivocate democracy by saying that everything good that happens to system, like riots (but not to be mixed with those of south american countries, cuba, vietnam or china) is because of democracy and everything bad that happens to that system, for example private sector making USA democracy slightly less democratic, is not because of democracy. Certainly purpose of life is not economic growth but why would you again mention how rich democratic state are every now and then? Seeing how this motion was voted later, just hits nail on coffin. Democracy is not only overrated, but dangerous in long run. There are more stupid people, and they will prevail.
对啊，这些观众很不理智
I noticed how vague Shevchenko was about what he called democracy (and rightly challenged by one ot the proposers). Anything that makes you feel good is democracy, and so he probably wants to keep his hands free to impose on "his" people the kind of democracy that suits him best when the time comes. And this game with words has already been widely expoited by the most repressive regimes, for instance the "German Democratic Republic", the "Democratic Republic of North Korea". Have your pick. So you would say: ok, these are not real democracies, but the failure on the opposition side to define precisely and concretely what constitutes a real democracy (if it is not just about voting) makes one wonder whether the slogan "democracy" is not just another of those bad words that anyone can use and abuse in his/her own favour. Democracy is anything that makes you feel good: surely so if you are the politician telling "your" people what they should feel good about.
Funny also that the question of whether or not Britain is a real democracy remained unanswered. If the (probably one of the best) criteria is that it is one in which the people can hold its government effectively to account, then Britain does not score very well on that test. I don't think that in the last century, if ever apart from the times of Cromwell, even the British parliament, let alone the people, has managed to hold its executive to account in any meaningful way. Numerous scandals (Iraq war, failure of finding WMD, the Scots report on alleged government collusion in weapons trade and then the covering up of it, the secret Al-Yamamah weapons deal, the alleged involvement in torture, etc all spring to mind) on which in other countries a government would certainly fall, have never managed to unseat a British executive. A true democracy? Hmmm.
I really can't believe how many people were against the notion. Then again, I can because JUST LIKE POLITICS charisma swayed the vote. People vote with feelings, not facts. I guarantee you if you had switched the panellists that there'd be 75%+ FOR the notion. As you can tell I am definitely for the notion. Democracy won't work in countries with tradition and cultural uprisings. You try add democracy in the middle east and you'll see that's what the people WOULDN'T want. Secular states. Already seen the evidence with Arab Springs as Islam has a huge sway in how things are run. Development is another big issue. Great points were made for the notion. Good debate overall.
Also, this is a liberal idea of democracy (from Shevchenko's point of view). A fantasy of how the world should be run. I'm not a realist but we can't be dreaming!
+Idrees Ahmed By the way. It's "Motion", not "Notion" they are talking about. Unless you know it and really prefer the word "Notion" and so in that case there's no problem at all. Peace. ;)
It's a great debate and thanks for sharing!
First speaker mentioned Iran as an example of USA and UK trying to bring democracy and failing horribly. If that was in reference to the 50s regime change, then it is a very backwards characterization. They literally replaced a democratically elected government with a dictatorship.
Also I wonder where the lady looking for benign dictatorships proposes to find them and how she plans to keep them benign? Just comparing democracies and dictatorships, which side has more "benign" governments as opposed to oppressive ones?
Finally coming from 8 years in the future, I wonder how they'd rate Putin's performance now that he has invaded a neighboring country yet again, introduced conscription and wasted the lives of many Russian servicemen and citizens for little gain while suffering major geopolitical setbacks.
It’s always easy to argue for democracy on ideology level, but when dealing with reality and actual challenges in societies, its effectiveness and adaptability is yet to be seen I’m afraid.
state the alternative form of governance u prefer please
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It produces an accountable and less corrupt form of government. Less corruption means faster economic growth. This is seen around the world.
@@tc98826
India is looking at you
Nigeria too
Both democratic
Pretty much all countries developed when they were not democratic.
The USA was not democratic as there was no universal suffrage until the 1960,s. At one point only white wealthy male landowners could vote.
Taiwan, South Korea and Singapore,s growth were kickstarted and overseen by autocratic leaders
Meiji Japan was not democratic
Britain was a monarchy during most of it,s development and most of that development happened by wealth transfer from it,s colonies and the industrial revolution. Same with France
Generally increased wealth brings democracy not the other way round.
@@fewblack1572 DICTATORSHIP
The fact that the final result was against the motion, despite that those who defended it had not a single logical argument and only appealed to emotion and ideals, is the most important and biggest argument FOR the motion and against democracy, since it demonstrated that people are too easily manipulated and vote taking stupid arguments to make their mind.
Well said. I find the result quite disturbing.
That's more of a rhetort than anything, because the question is: what are we supposed to do about that? If people collectively simply do not have the critical thought necessary to govern themselves, what is the solution, aristocracy?
@@Synodalian A (tentative) solution, if it exists, must be highly circumstance-dependent and complicated - it does not admit a simple description. The point is that no system is intrinsically/inherently good, i.e. good under all circumstances.
Indeed ma'am that's what I thought.
@@DaylenAmell
My real question is what kind of society we're supposed to be fighting for if we're so ready to put our own political freedom on the chopping block for convenience's sake. Just because there is no ideal system out there, doesn't mean that it's all _relative._ When we sink to that level of ambiguity, we open up the space for localized tyrannies all over the world.
Neither failed democracies nor "benign" dictatorships are in any way legitimate arguments against the principles of democracy.
Tanks for an excellent program.
It might not be directly relevant to the debate. But I suggest you to watch an Anime: The Legend of Galactic Heroes. On the surface it is a space opera, but deep inside it is a debate between benign dictatorship and representative democracy.
By the people for the people? What a joke! The US has not practised that for the last 40 years! It has been by the rich for the rich! The US government is democratic in name only and not in practice!
I've heard so many examples of India is being a great successful case of democracy so far. Do you know:
1. 95% of Indians live in rural area, which have a minimum connection to the central government?
2. The Indian government is SO corrupted, a very good example used by the speakers.
3. When the average population is poor, in this case 5% of the top Indian elites drive 99% of th GDP. You should expect the "vote" is VERY cheap to purchase.
I don't know which country do you belong but in comparison to Communist countries we have lots of rights and satisfy .India have lots of problem such as GDP and Corruption etc but at least we can ask question to our leader and raise concern.What about Communist world ???Can you ask any Query to them infornt of their Media?? Aftemath you will search other country for asylum..
@@avi7771987 But the media can also be bought just like the votes of people can be bought. But this is not because democracy is bad but because the system needed to keep the democracy in check and to ensure that people's rights are upheld are bad and corrupt.
@@avi7771987 lol. Mla Mp can be easly bought here with few lakhs.
@@darthsorosious3985 Please read my comment before replying and do some reasearch for MP Salary and Indian Politics.However if we accept your comment it is means democracy is alive .Otherwise in some another courtries either you will disappear with in week or your height will reduce 6 inch . ...you don't have basic data about India.
Growth is the only thing that matters to most poor countries, anyone who has lived in poverty can tell you that there can be no decency in poverty, there's nothing that dehumanises like poverty...
Unbelievable that they not also mentioned the tyranny of the majority. Or that in a democracy is control by interest groups. For example. Brexit, alcohol prohibition in the US, dictators like Hitler elected to power, the current drug war, in Indonesia wants 70% of the population introduce Sharia law, etc.
The key is clearly not that ignorant and undemocratic people have the opportunity to vote. The important thing is that there always are laws that protect the individual and his rights, restricts state, properity rights, free markets, etc.
Finally someone who says the truth not to mention hindu fascist modi getting elected , pshycopathic obama getting voted twice with racist trump boris Johnson getting elected
They did mention it, that was the woman's main argument. But the tyranny of the majority concept is simple fearmongering.
We are in an even worse situation, the tyranny of the minority, an elite minority that use political power to their advantage at the expense of the rest
Where? In what country are those laws of protection enforced? They r not in the US.
We do not have a Democracy in the US. Its a Plutoctacy. Our basic systems are propped up by capitalism. Not good.
Hitler wasn't elected... go and learn history before posting again.
The arrogance of the west.
Not all minds can forget the kills in the name of it.
Yan Zhaoci Ok, so, hundreds of thousands of pro-democracy activists in Tienanmen Square in 1989 were "the West"? They look pretty much Chinese to me.
a b : They were Chinese . But China has done much better for its citizens by suppressing them.
@@pardeeptandon6730: So any one who is against communist dictatorship is a "non-citizen" by definition and must be suppressed to the benefit of the "true citizens", who are apparently the conformist robots? What could be more arrogant than deciding who is a real citizen based on their points of view?
a b : The millions killed by the Democratic NATO in IRAQ, Syria, Libya, and now they are getting ready to kill thousands in Democratic Iran .
12:07 is my favourite moment when camera switches to audience with perfect timing, bonding the speech with those expressive eyes.
“Ask the indigenous native people of Canada 🇨🇦!” 🤷🏼♀️
To people who have to struggle to get bread (or rice), the freedom to get food and schooling for kids and medication for the sick are true freedom while the freedom to vote between a LSGB advocate and a Christian advocate seems something so irrelevant.
Yes I totally agree with the title "one size doesn't fit for all" we all have our own culture our own believe and our own value.respect their differences.
That's the most pathetic argument in favor of your position. "We have our own culture" LOL. So you can deny people their rights and that's "culture" ? Even slavery was "cultural" but it's wrong and immoral.
A dictatorship typically doesn't respect the differences inside it's own nation, be it ethnicities or opinions. Why should a democracy respect a different system which itself inherently doesn't respect differences?
@@SuhaibZafar are you giving the country to choose their own democracy? If not, you are not democratic.
@@SuhaibZafar what’s pathetic is the virtue signaling you just did. western democracy doesn’t automatically equate to virtue or a moral government
@@tonyeffik6781 Not everything is "virtue signal". At least learn the meaning of your buzzwords. And stop liking your own comments, it makes you look foolish.
The lady who gets a bit aggressive in the discussion is right: Government "by the people, for the people" is useless and sucks if the government doesn't work well. (The rest is ideology - that's the opposite of critical thinking, whether you live in a democracy or not.)
I enjoy debates like these. 👏🏿
The Against motion where only using emotional arguments, not much added substance other than feel good and self pats on the back, very disappointing debate tbh
Martin Jacobs a very wise man
Democracy, i.e Governance of the People, requires valid Rule of Law that allows a checks and balance system enforceable throughout all levels of governance regardless of jurisdiction. Democracy is successful only if its administration secures democratic order. Such democratic order is rendered invalid the moment a level of governance relies on autocratic or dictatorial rule.
Nations that fail to adopt a valid democratic system are Nations whose ideologies are incompatible with democratic ideals. There is no democratic ideal thus no possibility of any sustainable democratic order where legitimate checks and balances are non-existant and where citizens have no valid say in their public affairs.
I think democracy isn't as bad but corruption in democracy is real challenge
why has this been cut? i would have liked to hear the answer to the last chinese question.
and i think this debate had the major, major flaw of only having debaters from relatively rich countries. i mean 800 million people have to deal with hunger. hundreds of millions dont have basic sanitation. this point hasnt been made good enough, yes. after you have a safe place to sleep, do not go hungry and dont die early because of your access to clean water, you might lose a thought or two on how your voice should impact the next street to be build. thinking about how your government works/ should work is a major luxury, we here tend to easily to forget.
I believe all panelists would've agreed that democracy is the way for the future, but just not yet. Although maybe benign dictatorship would still be the answer of the lady? Unsure.
Do you think a dictator would develop the country and get people out of poverty?
What if the dictator is corrupt and only cares about himself?
The problem isn't a particular system. The problem is always the people in power. If those people are good and want to develop their country and give people good living conditions then it doesn't matter how those people come in power.
The problem is when bad people come in power who don't want the good of people but just care for their own greed.
Democracy or any other system with checks and balances is the way to go. Where, if the people in power are not doing enough for the people, they can be called to question and take away their power if needed.
In theory, democracy can do this. because in a democracy, people have the rights granted to them by the constitution. And the government is basically a service provider that does what it needs to ensure people's rights and their well being.
Poverty, hunger, bad living conditions that are prevalent in even democratic countries, just tell you that the system is corrupt and tells you that the government is not doing its job properly and that the checks and balances that are need to ensure people's rights are not working.
There wasn't much of a debate!
The moderator didn't let them argue and focus on a point, but just got through questions meaninglessly with worrying about time.
Culture and traditions however ancient and rooted in people's lives can always be updated to sync with better livelihoods accommodating and accomplishing the more desirable path to greater good
We saw what the push of democracy done to libya.. syria.. afghanistan, iraq.. and many others
They are living hell ! But the oil is secured for the west !
Stop pushing democracy as the only method possible !It depends on your culture, religion, and interests.
And the be honest the best form of democracy is a one solid party , with freedom and debates inside the party .. and not an authoritarian
the election of Trump proves the guys for the motion right. anyway the lady in the panel was right all along, i live in Mexico that's supposedly a democracy but in reality it just serves an oligarchy whereas half the country live in poverty and narco run states, where violence and human rights abuse is the norm. Democrazy is very certainly not for everyone
People are starting to see through the fallacy of the liberal representative democracy because it doesn’t represent us. It’s that simple.
100% agree.
So, dou you want to be under the rule of Porfirio Diaz or the mighty PRI? I will see your answer with great interest.
Democracy is not a "Form of Government". It is a principle. It really does not matter what you call a government, it's what it does that matters, and the masses have been very poorly represented the world over in recent decades no matter what a nation calls its government.
The root meaning of govern-ment = to control-mind... why does anyone want to vote for anything other than self to control their mind?
@@thedude5740 stupid, cryptic comment.
@@rufanuf1 you obviously haven't caught on to what language is. My comment wasn't stupid or cryptic... simply the truth. Of course in a world full of lies the truth looks weird...
I once heard a great philosopher say, allow a fool to persist in his folly and he will become wise...
@@thedude5740 Theres no "truth" in what your saying. Only opinion and even a fool can see that, but hey most people do go thru their lives thinking their opinions are fact.
@@rufanuf1 so no amount of evidence or logic I present would show you otherwise? Simply your opinion is correct no matter what can be proven?
There is a terrible cost of living crisis in Britain today. The poverty levels are shocking to see. The poor quality housing stunned me, the homeless people on the street, the healthcare system buckling under pressure, people with jobs who are still suffering and cannot pay adequately for basics, people now cannot afford to heat their homes, many are going hungry and cannot even afford to shower... So how come British democracy cannot solve their peoples hardship. You cannot eat democracy when you are starving can you??
Democracy is the worst form of government
I am for democracy but we shuld keep in mind that democratic system can also be corrupted when you have circle of intertwine parties like in case of some ex dictatorship contries.
They don't even need to be ex-dictatorships All democracies are in danger of corruption. All systems are in danger of corruption.
Or when it is unstable like in Subsaharan African countries when you have 30 political parties in an election
how you anylized the level of corruption
@@Iv4Bez By observing.
it actually a feature of democracy - the ability to lobby. You shouldn't be surprised that most governments care more about $$$ than what you want.
I would submit the importance lies not in democracy, but in the Rule of Law, whatever the system mayst be.
But in a one party system the people in power can manipulate the law to their advantage and can't be held to account.
@@freebornjohn2687 They can do that in whichever system is at place, so long as they all agree to it. That is also why increasing the number of people to share power from many different kinds and places is a very republican (not democratic) thing to do.
There are (and have been) plenty of unjust laws. Slavery was once legal - that doesn't mean it was moral or just.
@@sohangchopra6478 Given that observation, I would like to point that the Rule of Law should be, at its best, the Rule of Natural Law,.
Democracy is the safest option if the alternative is blatant repression.
Hello Professor
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I wish you peace and happness under the sky of prosperity. Take care and have a good time.
All the best.
Your Student from Algeria
Tow basic systems, the first when people do not trust their government and society is divided by politicians (e.g., as in most of the west) . The second people trust their government and society is united (as in China). Which system is democratic ?
I am Chinese from China too, I used to believe democracy is the best form of government but then I realized it is because I am always living in China so I crave for a different kinds of government system but now I live in the west and I am able to compare the two. So I do not actually agree with the Chinese student on that even tho I am Chinese. Now I see a very different scenario of government system and I think the west is too arrogant on it.
I am glad you finally wake your A** up and wise man because it’s true the West is very arrogant . I am Chinese 🇨🇳Vietnam🇻🇳 American 🇺🇸, and I born in Vietnam , but I love China because I am also have Chinese blood Hahahaha lol 😂😂😂😂👍👍👍👍🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇻🇳🇻🇳🇻🇳🇻🇳🇻🇳🇻🇳🇻🇳🇻🇳🇻🇳🇻🇳🇻🇳🇻🇳🇻🇳🇻🇳🇻🇳🇻🇳🇻🇳🇻🇳🇻🇳🇻🇳🇻🇳🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸!!!!
It doesn't matter if it's real democracy or a fake democracy, as long as it makes people's lives better, it's a good democracy. - China
The host was appalling. Why did he keep insisting people announce which way they were voting, and why did he not give the panellists a chance to respond to the last round of questions...
Let us compare three families , one is very rich , other is middle class and the third is very poor. Democracy is good for very rich families where the kids opinions have equal importance to that of other family member otherwise the riches are just stagnant and useless but for middle class and poor family if kids tantrums are given equal importance to that for other elder members opinions then the economy of those families will largely destabilize. Comparatively if a stricter form of governance is applied in middle class family ( something like communism ) then kids will have better discipline and hence the use of money will be more efficient , moreover something monarchy is applied to a very poor family where the most wise person assume the power then the dictator will have power with responsibility without any riches to spoil him so this type of governance will benefit the family. So democracy for developed countries , communism like model for developing countries and monarchy for poor country are more suitable models for their individual benefit. Unfortunately being an Indian I am very disappointed with the way our constitution was drafted because a developing country which is India ( back then and as unfortunately as consequence now) should not be given the freedom and liberty of democracy but would have grown into it after something like communism ( like china for example) , now as a consequence in 64 years in the name of equality the votes of illiterate gullible majority population carry equal weight as that of very high intelligent people which is easily grabbed by corrupt politicians using communal politics.
Vikram Bhat That’s what we observe at economic scale. Democracy is great but a democracy government isn’t necessary to raise a nation or to serve its ppl in the nation.
That's why we must strive to educate the population. Like in kerala. Where even a labourer is able to take an informed decision. Because it's a 100 percent literate state.They know the value of education.
IT SHOULD BR THR JOB OF POLITICIANS TOEDUCATE PROPLE AND BRING THEM YO POLITICSL AWARENESS
Spot on!
It is not important how the leader is elected, his personal integrity and will to serve his people is. If the leader is honest, dedicated and has a vision he/she would uplift the country if he/she is corrupt, and may be democratically elected he would ruine the country.
That's why having checks and balances are necessary.
Yes, the speakers on the left lost the vote, but voting is not always the best system for answering the question of whether democracy is always the best form of government.
Good job (very interesting arguments) by the 2 speakers who argued for the unpopular opinion - democracy is NOT always the best form of government.
no matter what the accountability is the key point. In this world we have good governments in democracy and non-democracy. And bad governments in both forms.
35:36 Well, China handled Covid almost better than any other country in the world, and certainly better India so.......
I wonder what Ian Bremmer would say after the fact.
Democracy comes in so many forms, multi-party democracy, single-party democracy, Council rule democracy
Democracy is not one thing. There are different types and flavors of democracy that fits everyone. The real question is not whether we need to democracy or not. It is rather what type of democracy we need.
We do not want any flavor of democracy, keep it to yourself if you like it so much
@@primeminister1040 Who said you have a choice. We will force it on you. No need to thank us. We will take your resources as a compensation.
@@primeminister1040 we? Who is that we? Is that an accurate representation of your whole group? Your neighbourhood? City? County? Country? What is that based on? Why?
@@thorthewolf8801 the ones who got bombed to death in the name of democracy, ever heard of them?
@@primeminister1040 Yes, germany got bombed in the name of democracy, I hear they are quite fond of it.
Ok, you answered one question (well, not really, but close enough), now answer the others.
It's so nice to see young people participating in these kinds of debates.
talk is cheap, see
Wonderfully wonderful
To Listen to the Debate about
Democracy Western World and
Oiental World led by China and
Hindusthan. Hindutva ........
So important 😎
@ThePHiLsTeR True
@ThePHiLsTeR Lol
I want to believe the youth aren't as naïve anymore this decade especially with all what has happened since.
Four speakers did a great job on their view-point. Interestingly, It had been a good debate for original thesis of discussion before audiences joined the discussion. and then all of them totally lost in a fuzzy direction and diverged the thesis that they originally talked.
original: democracy is not always the best form of government.
at end: democracy is right or not.
The last Ukrainian dude, wow, you are so political and charismatic, Bravo
Now I hope mr Lee Kuan Yew's approach would be revised and appreciated more in the context of Singapore. The West has learned a lesson in understanding the other world.
The pro side argued with facts and logic. The con side had to use, at a lack of such, emotional appeals.
Yet people fall into the emotional appeal, a showcase of a typical democracy.
Which shows exactly why democracy is so flawed. Emotional, pathetic idiots.
Agree
Bcos it is a fact, more stupid people than smart people. And majority wins.
Chinese hybrid system suits their culture and vast numbers perfectly. Yes, people there may not be "free" in the western sense but in ex Yugoslavia we also had a hybrid model under Tito and yes, certain freedoms were definitely not on the menu but since your housing, medical, education, job etc.. was taken care off people taught it was a fair trade.
And housing, medical and education isn't being taken care of in democracies? Oh my, you confuse the way power is legitimized with how a state is run. Democracy is only a way to legitimize the rule, nothing else really.
@@dabozzcrgDoes approval from an ignorant and easily manipulated electorate legitimize any rule?
@@dabozzcrg not necessarily. A leadership that wasn’t elected can still be loved by people and guarantee their many freedoms
socialist aspects of democracy make housing/medical/education affordable for the masses, not democracy itself. money is fluid and the govt's means to pay for all that - either through high taxes or lower wages - is the same thing.
poor countries will never be able to afford the same standard of living as rich ones even when their govts enact the purest form of democracy. this is a concept most citizens in rich democracies struggle with.
india vs china is a great example of how the effectiveness of both systems depends on who's in charge. in india's democracy, a lack of common language is tolerated and the rich rule by proxy through division & campaign funding at the detriment of society. china's authoritarian regime commited grave mistakes in the early days but it stays in power long enough to learn and unified the country with a common language common culture ironing out most of their petty differences to benefit society as a whole.
sure they both suffer fron corruption but, had the chinese officials picked the pockets of the country as much as their indian counterparts, development would have been roughly equal. we have to remember that most bad debts shouldered by poor countries are borrowed to catch up with centuries of needed infrastructure - something the imperialists havent bothered developing beyond facilitating commerce for the express purpose of resource extraction.
China will go the Yugoslavia way if it follows the democratic mindset, for 1million members of the communist party cannot always rule over the huge non-comunist members.
The fact that Democracy and capitalism, AND POPULISM, are synonymous, will be it's very downfall. IF NOT ARROGANCE AND DECADENCE.
Democracy is not the best form of government, but is the one having the least dangerous problems of all forms we have so far tried.
Wait when the dollar will no longer be the reserve currency and then you will tell me if democracy is sustainable in America
28:36 most eye opening moment. Would have liked to see members of developing countries take part in this debate.