WHY I'm Ditching Index Shifters in 2022
Vložit
- čas přidán 3. 09. 2022
- Why I'm ditching indexed shifters to go all friction in 2022.
PATREON: / pathlesspedaled
STICKER STORE: www.pathlesspedaled.com/store
SHIRTS: shop.spreadshirt.com/pathless...
INSTAGRAM: / pathlesspedaled
Affiliate Links:
Riding Camera: www.insta360.com/sal/go_2?ins...
360 Camera: www.insta360.com/sal/one_x2?i...
Studio Camera: amzn.to/2U9SQiJ
Studio Mic: amzn.to/3eehci8
Fave Multitool: amzn.to/3ec9ntk
Fave Pump: amzn.to/3kd6Any
I'm kind of old, so I came up on friction shifting. You commented about being "between gears". From what I can remember, once muscle memory kicks in, you can about nail the shift every time. And if you are off a bit, you learn the sound and just trim it out a little so that it is quite and smooth. Personally, I have no current plans to go back to them, but but do still appreciate them. They just work, they are simple, you never worry about cable stretch as you said.
As another old guy, I can just remember learning to use friction shifters mounted on the down tube, and it not being difficult or being a problem. In fact I liked the ability to micro adjust. Indexed gears only became a thing for me when I started xc mountain biking. There I needed to keep a firm grip on the bars and I was doing a lot more quick gear changes.
I remember that too, adjusting based on sound and feel of pedaling, I was just the way it was back in the 30s, lol (OK, 70s)
im 47, also came up on friction shift. still have my 86 raleigh technium with 2x6 friction shift and it still has the original shifters, cables, and derailers
Once you learn your bike, the indexing is in your head.
The big question is if it's possible to shift rapidly and accurately enough with friction shifters to actually differentiate 10-12 gears.
Having 5-7 gears in that range of motion is workable, but using a friction shifter accurately on maybe a not so smooth road surface.. I'm not so sure.
I still ride a 3X7 and love it because even the indexing doesn't really have to be all that accurate, as long as you're in the ballpark the chain will hop onto the right gear, unlike 11-12 gears where the indexing needs to be spot on for it to work well, so I wonder how well that's gonna work with friction shifters.
Maybe if the lever is long enough to be able to make very small adjustments it'll work fine, but the friction shifters I've used in the past probably would be a pain in the behind to actually get (and keep) into exactly the right position for an 11-12 speed cassette...
You’ve really been speaking my language lately - you’re mixing the best of old and new. After years of indexing, carbon frame, hydro brake (and even the future shock) I am going back to my first loves with a combo of new and old tech: bar-end friction shifter in an ultra wide 1x setup, mechanical disk brakes and a metal gravel frame with room for big tires. All the best simplicity of my first bikes (even simpler with 1x) and a huge improvement in braking, gear range and tire size. Your logic here is right on!
I agree, but it really annoys me that hydraulic calipers are now cheaper than mechanical calipers! Seems bonkers to me how expensive TRP spyres are.
The obsolescence/environmental aspect of new components could lead me down this path one day. It concerns me that electronic groupsets (which will be the standard in the next 5-10 yrs) will become like mobile devices with short life spans due to software support or being tied to specific battery types that are no longer manufactured.
Wasn't bicycling supposed to be a 'green sport'? I find materialism and 'use it, throw it away' consumerism quite ironic!
Its amazing how many bikes I put together from free unwanted, yet perfectly functional 'old junk' I got for free or dirt cheap!
Since I'm a mechanic in a high end shop, modern overpriced bike junk is little more than job security for me! More complexity, more service, more sales.
MORE PROFIT!
Consumers know more than my decades of expertise? They drank the marketing BS koolaide?
Haha, I'll gladly upsell them and take their freakin money. Its literally like taking candy from babies!
@@rollinrat4850 I just got another old bike runs perfectly but looks old so that’s why the switch bikes lol I can’t believe how much people waste on everything,
@@pepemontoya9634 I can't believe how much perfectly functional parts go in the garbage due to 'upgrading'. Its good for me. I find it and use it up. Cycling is not only supposed to be a 'green' sport, it can also be an affordable sport. Much more so than my 4wd hobby.
Eddy Merckx said it best. RIDE up grades. Don't buy them.
@@rollinrat4850 not garbage but a big useless bin usually. Would be good for charity tho.
@@rollinrat4850 The least green part of cycling as a sport? Travel to a race 200km away and back, and you have put more carbon in the air than a CF bike and all the components it will consume in the lifetime of the bike. Component choices are virtually insignificant.
I have used friction for my front derailleurs on all my bikes for about 10 years. I just got fed up with hearing chain rub especially on triples. Now it’s just a quick adjustment and the noise goes away. Result 👍🏻
I did the same thing 6 months ago. Being able to trim the front was refreshing
Same! When my Campy Ergo left shifter started slipping (and i jusy havent had time to fix it or send it for repair), i slapped on an old downtube friction shifter and it is perfect! Not much incentive to go back... Right shifter is still Ergo.
Something I like about friction shifters is the ability to micro adjust the front derailer as an example, when in the large chainring in front and large gear in back most of the time you will have the chain run on the front derailer, no problem with friction shifter you just adjust it to not rub on the fly. On indexed systems you are suppose to shift front derailer and then shift rear to try and match the gear ratio you want
I've been raised on indexed shifters, never knew anything else. Friction shifters were relics from a bygone era for me. One of my early bike projects was an old 80s 3x7 road bike with downtube shifters. Shifting gears was such a strange experience I decided to convert it to a single speed :) Much time has passed, then I started watching your channel and since my style of riding is now closer to the party pace style, the idea to try friction shifting grew on me. I bought a microshift sl-m10 thumb shifter for my recent project and paired it with a 10s cassette and Shimano XT derailleur. When I switched shifter mode to friction it stayed like this ever since. I love it. Feels so smooth and natural and quiet. Suddenly I hated that clicking noise of every indexed shifter. And when you have to shift the whole cassette it's done not with nervous finger actions but in one smooth motion. Yes, when in friction mode you tend to miss the gears and they skip sometimes but a little adjustment on the shifter and you are set. It's always worth trying something new, in this case something old ;)
Downtube shifters are no prob, lol.
@@0xsergy Depends on your frame size - as a taller rider, my bikes have longer head tubes and the down tube is notably lower relative to the top tube than would be the case on a smaller frame, so the downtube shifters are a further reach from the natural riding position. Some riders may only have to move their hand from the bars to the downtube shifter, others may also have to lean forward, lowering their back and shifting their overall position on the bike.
@@chrislukes9037 Ive seen large custom bikes with DT shifter, brazed bosses on the top tube. Ive also seen them mounted on the stem. You can get clamps to put shifters most anywhere on your frame.
I used DT shifters as a road racer several decades ago. I'm 6' tall and like big frames. Ive used barend shifters mostly since then, for racing, touring and hardcore offroad riding. I have several sets of 8 or 9 speed Dura Ace bar ends. They're used very roughly offroad in all conditions. One set I used 'cross racing, (crashed on, powerwashed, thrown down in dirt and mud) stopped indexing well. I switched to the friction mode and realized I forgot how well friction shifting worked.
The modern chains, ramped and pinned gears and slant parallelogram derailleurs are what's truly improved shifting to its current ease.
The indexing clicky bits just make bikes more complex and unreliable.
Recently I custom built friction shifters that sit under my brake hoods so I can shift with my thumbs riding in the hooks on my dirt drop h'bars. This is a dream I finally realized and made happen. I had several old MTB thumbshifters and bar ends unused in a box. I modified and combined them to make these cool shifters.
With older index shifters, I've often ended up changing them to friction mode when the indexing gets out of adjustment. Glad I've never had an expensive index system that doesn't have the friction option.
Yeah. I love my metallic silver Sharpie. Marks on the shifter ring twister thing. Ignore the original marks.
During the last thirty years of road biking, I made the transition from flat peddles to clipless pedals, from bar-end shifters to integrated brake lever shifters, from rim brakes to disc brakes, and from cable-pull shifting to electronic shifting. For each of those transitions, I was a skeptic who was slow to the party. After making each of those transitions, I wondered why I had waited so long.
I agree with clipless. I'm OK with integrated shifters. Disc brakes are fine so long as you spend the money for a dual piston caliper. Though I see no great attraction for non-racing cycling. I doubt that I will ever have a battery operated shifter. The mechanical systems work too well and I hate the idea of being a slave to batteries.
Frankly, I'm tired of the marketing driven bicycle industry. The cost/benefit ratio of so many of the advances isn't that great in my experience. And I'm not a Luddite. I'm currently running tubeless (though I've gone about 90% "ghetto"). And I think I might prefer it.
@@wturber I love it all. Group rides and rough off-road I like indexed. I still ride a steel road bike half the time. However cruising around town I love friction, fixed, or cruisers.
I’m also always late to the party. I rode my 1990 Pinarello with Campy Synchro (first down tube, then brifters) and tubulars (of all things!) until a couple of years ago when I bought into carbon fiber, tubeless and Di2. I’m in my 50s and really appreciate the ease of use of electronic shifting, though I totally understand that the cost is a deal-breaker for most folks.
@@wturber I don't think electronic shifting is in the cards for me anytime soon, but as a mechanic I get to work on and use Di2 quite a bit. You can't compare the shift quality of mechanical to Di2. Even perfectly setup mechanical systems don't match the crispness of Di2. Can't say the same about AXS for the road, and haven't worked on the campy electronic stuff. But it's a no brainer that if money isn't a problem, Di2 is better.
@@dvoob what's battery life like?
For me the important question is seldom what is best. The important question is usually what is good enough.
My first 10 speed (1971) had friction shifting and I’ve never used anything else. Currently using Silver Shifter thumbies mounted reverse-riv style. Pleasant, reliable, maintenance free. Good decision, Russ. 😉
What kind of brand was it in 1971? I had no idea this was available at that time
@@antonijankowski3379 The bike was an off-brand aluminium framed cheapie! The drive train was also brand-less. Read my original comment... Not indexed, friction.
Love all of this. Reminds me of ideas that sprung up in the 70's in relation to the energy crisis, culminating in the "Appropriate Technology" movement.
I often wonder where our species would be if we could get comfortable with "good enough" technology.
Keep being awesome.
I can't help but think of Star Wars tech with your comment.
Have friction shifters on my touring bike. Other benefits include: They're damn near bomb proof and they are super easy to adjust and fix because they are mechanically very simple.
On my road bike over 1000s of miles Ive wrecked and broken my ultegra shifters more than a couple of times, it's an expensive fix and they're more brittle than you think.
I'm a pro mechanic. I replace brifters after innocent little crashes and not so long term dirty abuse and neglect all the time. They're very expensive compared to good alternative shifters and they never last long, unlike the alternatives.
NOW, add in INFERNAL routing and integrated cabling, not to even mention aero BS, even the added hydraulic bits for (MUST HAVE) disc brakes.
Nobody realizes how complex the innards of brifters are. I dare EVERYONE to disassemble one and put it back together! Its not impossible. Haha. It was part of the job interview at one shop I worked at. Fortunately I've helped built aircraft, spacecraft and other high reliability devices. Modern bicycles have nothing in common with such machinery.
There's lots to go wrong with brifters, lots to easily get damaged or to wear out from ignorance and dirty usages.
I was at a bike show when Shimano first unveiled brifters in the late '80s. The rep wanted to demonstrate how serviceable the new (CLOCKWORK like) brifter's inner workings were. He disassembled them during the show. After a few hours I came back. He was just finishing! And a few parts were still left on the table. He was starting to blush and sweat! Pretty funny stuff.
I recently was given barely used Ultegra shifters. I put em on my long distance bike just to try em out. They were there for only one freakin ride. I sold them to a worthy 'sucker born every minute'.
My Dura Ace 8&9 spd bar ends have survived decades of hardcore riding. Racing, crashing, (racers EXPECT to crash!) touring, fun hog antics, ignorance,offroad abuse, power washing at 'cross races, thrown down in the dirt, etc, etc. My bar ends still shift perfect after over 30 years.
You'd be lucky to get 5-10 years out of a set of brifters if you never crash and pay a little attention to them.
Ive got an axe to grind with brifters. But they're definately JOB SECURITY for me! That's the best thing I can say about all sorts of 'new and improved', 'just GOTTA have it' overpriced bike tech!
More complexity? More proprietary. More service! More sales! MORE PROFIT......
Oh yes!
There are electronic shifters starting to appear on aliexpress where you can set how many gears the rear derailleur moves in software. Shimano should pay attention.
Through time I've started to develop similar thoughts about bike industry and industry in general. If you mix hype culture and shortage due to the world falling apart, you get a crude scenario. I've been trying to cope with the fact that my bikes could become less "legit" with less racing oriented parts, but I now realize that it's something I could be proud of, a statement against the state of the art in marketing bullshit
As a stubborn and grumpy old man, I have grown increasingly irritated with the exponential increase in cost of bike components for what is, IMHO, only a marginal improvement in performance. And I like the idea of having a shift system on my bike that would allow greatest flexibility if the wheels finally come totally off of our glorious global supply chain.
Asks bike shop guy.
#1. Does it make getting groceries any easier.
#2. Is it shiny, sparkly and makes me smile.
No and it only comes in black.
The only friction shifters I've tried are the old/vintage downtube ones, though there are some decent ones too. The system is so simple that it does seem effortless to set-up and maintain. But then again, a well adjusted and indexed system is so satisfying to use and the clicks are enjoyable, but it goes down to personal opinion in the end I guess. Both systems have some ups and downs.
I didn't start with friction shifting. I got into it around 2010 or so, but I've never looked back. I've never tried it with more than 8 speeds (I've never needed more than 8; I run 11-28 by 42/28). Sometimes I think about going up to 9, to expand my current 11-28 cassette to 11-32, so it's nice to hear that more gears is actually easier to shift rather than harder. But yeah, I love being able to shift many gears in one fluid motion. I love the low maintenance. I like the feel of friction shifting. I also do appreciate the small but real skill component of friction shifting. It makes me feel more in tune and connected with my bike. And yeah, it's super cheap and simple. It probably is not ideal for competition cycling, but I don't compete and never plan to. I like simple, efficient, and cost effective equipment. Friction shifting fits the bill. I don't intend to ever go to index shifting. JUst no need for it. Indexing is nothing but downsides for someone like me.
You might be overlooking something:
Not all RDs parallelograms or geometry is equal. So the same cable input might translate into a different sweeping distance on any given system (i.e. 7x / 8 x and so forth).
Cable pull amount is therefore the active ingredient of indexing shifters for each system, but geometry might be the secondary one.
IF you go completely friction and not indexed at all, you might still get them to work, of course.
Right, but this just essentially means that a given friction shifter (with a fixed amount of total cable pull, from end to end of its sweep) _may_ have a max # of speeds with a given rear derailleur (given its geometry will dictate a certain amount of left-right movement over the shifter's total cable pull). That said, given that cassettes with more speeds are generally only _slightly_ wider (since cogs are spaced more tightly - e.g. a 12 speed cassette is _not_ 12/9ths as wide as a 9 speed), I think most combos will sufficiently cover the cassette range, unless you are using derailleurs specifically designed with a smaller "shift ratio" (e.g., SRAM's "1:1" series). And to your point (and Russ's), as long as the max range is sufficient, a friction shifter will be able to "find" all the speeds in between.
EDIT: just realized Russ addresses the "max cable pull" consideration of some older friction shifters @12:07
I use mostly old friction bar ends or modified thumbies. My Dura Ace bar ends are so old, the indexing clicks wore out. They still shift perfect in friction. I own even older Sun Tour and Campy ratcheting bar ends. They all still make the shift, so they're functional and usable.
Cycling is supposed to be a 'green sport'. Use your junk until it's non functional! Stop adding to landfill. That's 3rd worldly. Parts of Wackofornia are beginning to look like India!!
I'm shifting across 6-10 speed freewheels and cassettes. That's more than enough gears for me.
Wide range 1X, 11 and 12 speeds offer huge gaps between gears. For mixed road and trail riding, I'd always have too high gears or too low. There is no 'Goldilocks gears'. I'm not a fan. I'm not about to PAY MORE for less! If I want to ride in the wrong gear all the time, I'll pick one of my several singlespeeds!
I can also buy and afford all the 'latest and greatest' high end bikes and gear near cost at industry discounts. want, lust or lose sleep over NONE of it! Its mere job security.
Ive found that 8/9 speed derailleurs work well with bar ends to sweep across the whole 10 speed cassette.
A Shimano 10 speed derailleur requires a different pull ratio and comes up short.
The best and widest range 9 spd derailleur I can actually find is the Deore M592. This unit will allow you to set up incredibly wide range touring gears. Both lower and higher than I rarely need.
Totally agree! You should also mention this: An important capability was taken from riders with indexed. It took the feedback loop out of shifting; the human could correct for bad shifts by fine adjustment of the shifter, because we have sensory inputs and a brain to process those inputs (noise picked up by the ear, roughness picked up by our sense of touch). But with indexed shifting, this feedback mechanism was taken from us. An indexed shift has to happen in a pre-designed way ("baked in" as you say), and there is no provision for correcting any imprecision on the fly.
I returned to down tube shifting on one of my bikes after watching one of your videos. It is so much better. I am thinking of converting all my bikes to friction shifting. The main point is, the human body is capable of changing gear very accurately after a few days of practice. Also much lighter.
You don't even realize the tiny nuances aftwe awhile. Some cable/lever combinations requre that you overshoot the gear alignment a tiny bit, then trim it back. It becomes so smooth that you forget that you are doing it.
Something to think about…for those of us that jumped on the gravel train because you could “ride everywhere” but you realize you would actually like to switch from drop bars to swept back bars like Jones H-bars…the friction shift is a life saver. Instead of having to buy a new derailleur, you can just swap to a friction and the bars and find some new brake levers and you’re good to go.
The big change in shifting happened with the RAMPS on the rear cluster and the pins on the front chain ring. They made the shifting process so simple a machine could do it, and in the process, made friction shifting easier and more positive. When I replaced the 5 speed freewheel on my 50-year-old Schwinn with a modern 7speed cluster, shifting became much easier with no other changes.
Very true. This is why friction shifting works so well compared to what I remembered in the '60s &'70s, when I learned how to friction shift.
The other thing that made an equally huge difference was invention of the slant parallelogram derailleur. This kept the upper derailleur pulley at a more equidistant and closer position to the cogs. It made shifting wider range freewheels much quicker and more accurate.
Here's a bit of shifting history.
Sun Tour was the original inventor of the slant parallelogram derailleur. When I was a racer, many of us changed our Campy derailleurs to cheaper SunTours and realized big shifting improvements. The then newest Uniglide freewheels and improved modern chains also made big shifting improvements. Sun Tour also made modern freewheels.
When Shimano came out with SIS Dura Ace 7400, ('85 or '86?) it offered all these shifting improvements, plus indexing in the mid '80s. Lots of traditional roadies were still on Campy at the time, whose design was by then, DECADES OLD. Campy was so well made it lasted a really long time! The shifting performance difference (between old Campy and newest SIS) in my point of view was like night and day. As far as the indexing was concerned, it took Campy and Sun Tour several years to catch back up to Shimano.
I still maintain that my decades old Dura Ace 7400 shifts just as fast as modern DI2 and even more solidly. Its still doing so, to this day! Downtube shifting offers the shortest possible cable and just 6" of cable housing.
Sun Tour tried to bite off more than they could chew, made bad business decisions and went out of business. If it wasn't for racing and rich fanatics, Campy wouldn't exist anymore either.
@@rollinrat4850 Very true: I can imagine a vid on "Hidden Design Changes That Improved Bikes". Another hidden change is the switch from helical wound cable housings to today's multiple strand housings, MUCH stiffer in compression. That's probably behind the success of indexed shifters even though end-to-end housing runs are used.
@@markfisher7962 I use
linear wire housing for most everything. Even friction shifting. But old cheap housing will always work in a pinch. I use compressionless brake housing on most of my bikes. It makes a big and noticeable difference. NEVER use shifter housing for brakes. It WILL burst.
Totally agree! Although I don’t love having them in the bar-end position because they often hit my knees. I know you mentioned the different handlebar placement options but it would be cool if you included them visually in a video! Curious about setting them up thumby style with drop bars.
Easy with Gevenalle brake levers with bar-end mounts. You could also use a Paul Thumbie mount it you didn't want it on your brake levers
Most drop bars have a smaller diameter than mtb levers,where you'd want to mount them.
I modified ancient SunTour XC pro thumbies to fit under my brake levers on a drop bar. Its the perfect place to shift from in a position of power and stability when riding aggressively on rough trail.
In order to pull this off you will need some fabrication, tinkering and wrenching skills. The key is patience and determination!
Try Gevanelle shifters...they're ace...far easier to use than they look like they'd be.
I machined my own Gevenalle style perches, drilled and bolted them to old brake levers I like. I used really nice old shifters I already had. Gave 'em a try on one ride and realized they were really hard to reach. Even on the hoods they were very awkward, in several different positions.
I ride in the hooks at least half the time so they're pretty much worthless for me.
I've been using bar ends for decades and Im very accustomed to those or custom modified upside down thumbies.
If the bar-ends are hitting your knees your frame is too small.
The first indexed Shimano shifters were on the down-tube and you could convert to friction on the fly if the index was off. Which was nice. Except the down-tube part.
I took Dura Ace DT shifters and mounted them to bar end mounts. After I poked my legs a few times, I cut the levers shorter and reshaped them. They make very nice, yet very simple shifters than last virtually forever in the friction mode.
@Kevin Sandberg: You're right. All my downtube and bar end index shifters had that index lock-out option.
My DA shifters still index perfect after 35 years. Friction works 'practically' as well. But only because I learned how to shift before those clicky bits existed. Haha, You'd be lucky to get 10 years of hard riding out of modern brifters!
I have them on my retro roadbike and actually like them a lot, I wouldn't trade them for those fashionable bar end friction shifters. Gear changes are quick and bang on every time, I much prefer that over the friction mode. (Which I can use fairly well, but I'd rather spend 5 minutes to adjust the cable tension every few weeks than spending 2 seconds more to feel out the gears every time I'm shifting..)
I have a set of RSX stis that I'm debating putting on that bike, but I'm not sure what condition they are in and the downtube shifters just work awesome..
@@Finnspin_unicycles I bought the 7 speed DA drivetrain when indexing (SIS) was a brand new invention. I had been riding/racing Campagnolo Nuovo/Super Record for several years before that. The difference in shift quality was astounding indeed. The difference was truly like night and day. As soon as I tested a bike with then brand new SIS, I bought the parts to convert.
I wrench in a high end shop now and get to try all the latest and greatest electronic shifting. I tune it all and fix all the problems. I believe shift quality and shift speed is really no better now than it was with my old Dura Ace. Certainly not if a rider actually KNOWS how to shift smoothly and quietly. I'll just assume its an aquired skill!
Nevertheless, I don't see the point in more and yet even more numbers of gears. I definately get it in terms of increased sales, more and yet more work and all the proprietary issues! Tens speeds is more than I'll ever 'need' no matter where I ride in mtns, dirt or freeway overpasses.
Its the rider, not the freakin bike! My favorite, most used bike is a fixed gear cyclocross bike. There is nothing more reliable and simple. I ride it most of the places I'd ride my mtb.
Modern shifting and INFERNAL routing are nothing but job security for me. I fix all the issues, bent hangers, QC problems, see the cost of replacements and its lesser reliability over long periods of time.
Ironically, I very very rarely need to fiddle with my own old school bikes. My customers also provide more work than I'll ever need! I'd actually prefer to ride more than I wrench!
Personally I'm not easy on bikes. Even my road bikes will see trails. Underbiking simply rocks and I can't ever resist a good explore!
What has improved shifting the most in mechanical reality was modern chains, ramped and pinned chainrings and cogs. Modern slant parallelogram derailleurs keep the upper pulley at an equal distance to the cogs. Sun Tour had that patent. I still use some of their derailleurs. Indexing only solves human operating issues. Again, rider not the bike. Its just an inanimate machine that a human needs to operate.
I don't race anymore and don't need super fast accurate shifting. Indexing never saved me any time! Riding singlespeeds does make me stronger and faster!
Friction shifting allows better reliability with no reliance on proprietary parts, so I can mix all sorts of free old junk together. Ive got access to all sorts of free parts.
In other words I can keep using 'nice old junk' that would otherwise be useless landfill. Cycling is supposed to be a 'green sport'.
Let’s fast forward 30 years. Russ will have his UNO shifter - pulling enough cable for a 12-sp cassette - on his downtube.
Another reason for avoiding STIs: in the very cold weather the grease inside them can become too thick and make the thing very fiddly to use.
I went friction recently and now I’m completely sold - for all the reasons you stated here. All my bikes are now set up friction. Thanks for another great informative video Russ!!!
Same! I recently picked up an 80s Marinoni frameset and built it up using stuff from my parts bin. I had a complete 10 speed Shimano drive train...minus the shifters. What I DID have were 80s Shimano 600 downtube shifters and for a laugh I figured I'd give it a try.
To my complete surprise, the shifting works great! As Russ mentions, you're basically always in gear. The only bad part is having to reach down but I've got a pair of Microshift flat bar shifters on the way in the mail. I'm never going back.
Bar end 11 speed with friction option is my go to shifter as well 😁 Takes some learning like you mentioned but it’s surprisingly easy once you get the up-up idea 😉 the cost can creep up though when you factor in shifters, levers, cable calipers, compressionless housing, etc compared to a hydraulic setup all inclusive… but you’re on point. Those were just my considerations and I still went with the mad max setup 😆
@@sindlero I have the trp levers. They’re ergonomic and have a short reach.
What about the pull ratio of each derailleur? I have tried 11 speed derailleur on 10 and 9 speed shifters, unsuccessfully. The design way the cable goes through each derailleur will affect the pull ratio of the shifter. Am I wrong? Maybe there is some exceptions.
Absolutely agree - just recently built up a Rockhopper with Deore XT clutch 11speed deraileur and microshift bar end. It just works.
Russ, you're great! Love this stuff. Love these "against the grain" videos. Always good food for thought.
I’ve gone back to an Italian steel bike with down tube shifters and I love it, after a few rides it’s second nature and I’m just as fast on a bike that cost a fraction of my carbon bike!!!!!
I just put my modern fizik seat on and that’s it, I’ve come to the conclusion that most “advances” are gimmicks.
Could a Microshift bar end shifter that is "Advent 9v compatibility only" works with a Deore 11spd derailleur / Cassette 11-46 if this shifter is on friction mode and not in the index mode? I have this bar end shifter from my past Advent 9v derailleur but now I have that Deore and I want to convert to drop bar.
When riding offroad you often can't hear the chain being misaligned on the gears, so once you pedal harder, the chain skips pretty bad. Granted, I have this on my 80s MTB with a 3x5 drivetrain and possibly misaligned hanger, so now I'm curious to try friction with 10 speed or higher.
I saw a difference even going form a 5 speed to a 7 speed. I will say 10 speed felt rally smooth never missed a gear (but I have skipped a gear). You can just feel the right gear to be in.
Yes, indeed, I agree that friction has less moving parts, less to wear out, and makes for lower maintenance costs. Smooth and accurate shifting takes practice, especially uphill, but is very possible. I have a hybrid with nine speed Shimano cogs, 11-32, with 52, 42, 32 on the Shimano Sora crankset. Hydraulic discs, front and rear, but separate Sun Tour friction shifters. Even though I have a modern Ultegra rear derailleur, (with some carbon fibre bits), it works very nicely, once the new chain is worn in, as long it is routinely cleaned and the chain is well lubricated. The Sun Tour shifters were less than $25 for the pair, and have needed little maintenance, (occasional tightening). On my road bike, I removed the Campy brake/shifters, installed a used brake lever (old Shimano Ultegra, eighties), and mounted the same cheap Sun Tour friction shifters near the apex of my drop handlebars, outboard. Kept the 52 39 chainrings on the front, and again used 9 speed on the back, 11-32, but this time used a Sora rear derailleur. Worry free, practically maintenance free, and super cheap. After all, I started cycling to work because I couldn't afford car insurance, I needed a cheap way to get to work. The more complex bikes become, the less they serve the needs of the working poor.
Hi Russ, I been restoring used bikes for several years now, using used and cast off parts. I’m always looking for an excuse to dump indexing and go friction. For no more
than $20 I can get a set of “OK” quality friction thumbies. Keeps the cost down and allows me to mix & match parts. This is all you need for “around town” bikes.
Whats the name of the model of component you talking about?
I'm not sure friction shifting is a good ideal for three speed hubs, because over shifting or under shifting will sort of work but it can really wear out the internal hub parts. But I wonder if I can make my old bike a 10 speed with the old derailleur and a friction shifter. Is all I need a new chain and cassette?
Question, you may have the answer I'm looking for. I have a 9100 shifter and I'm running 1x. Is there a plain left handed brake lever I can use that is close in resemblance to the dura ace lever so it feels the same while riding on the hoods?
You may be crazy, Russ, but you're the good kind of crazy, no doubt. And thanks for being our man in the street for the neato and cool and all the cycling off-beat. You are the best at it, a big thanks from this supporter who sometimes gets sent to the hallway for my quips about party pace, sorry, just being an occasional wiseacre.
Yay for Microshift, yay for single speeds!
Want to convert my 1X7 twist grip shifter on my hybrid straight bar bike to a friction thumb shifter. Which would you recommend I buy. Thank you. and yes, I have ridden with a friction shifter back in the late 70'-80's so I know what I'm getting into. 😀
I tried some friction ratcheting shifters from velo orange on my 9 spd Lht. Had no issues until I pedaled out of the saddle and the skipping would begin. Love the front friction, so easy to trim. The bike came with Shimano bar end shifters that could go from friction to indexed. Those I would use as indexed in the rear. Thoughts.?
Switched from brifters to Retroshift (now Gevenalle) in 2007 with 9 speed Dura-Ace shifters. It was so wonderful getting rid of index shifting in the front, which IMO should never exist (although there's an argument for electronic with auto trim, but I'll never have a non E-bike that I'll have to charge). When I needed a new rear derailleur after a crash in 2020, I went to 11 speed Microshift with GRX 810. But where I completely disagree with Russ is rear shifting, I'll always use index in the rear. Yes, it's great that when things go wrong, I can switch to friction to get home, but it's just great to get into the ride & not think about trim in the rear. Plus, with the Gevenalle system I dump 5-6 gears at a time easily at the crest of a climb and won't need to fiddle with trim while recovering from the effort. Not to mention there is much more wear & tear being between gears in the rear, where as being off in the front usually just means a liitle FD rub. Just my $.02. Oh, and I don't have issues shifting the rear while standing up with Gevenalle.
I machined my own Gevenalle style shifter perches. Just out of curiosity. Gevenalle are quite overpriced IMO. I suppose they're cheaper than freakin brifters!
I didn't care for the shifting position from the hoods. Riding on hoods in rough offroad conditions is a really bad idea, IMO. Genenalle is virtually worthless if you ride much in the hooks. Offroad, that's where I ride most of the time. But I'm probably just weird that way.
Does anyone remember what the hooks are for?? Why not just cut em off to save weight?
I recently modified old thumbies and bar ends to mount under my brake hoods to shift with my thumb and forefinger while in the hooks. This is the cat's meow!
Great video! I’ve used friction all my life until the last two years where we (wife and I) have updated to disk breaks and sram apex road lever/shifter connected to rival derailleurs. The reason being we travel and move all the time always riding in new unfamiliar places and the ability to shift quickly and comfortably into an easier gear at high speed in traffic without the nano second of terror shifting weight and moving a hand to the bar end is supremely worth it for us. That moment doesn't happen often, we avoid traffic and we’re not racing, but if you travel, or tour, regularly it can happen often enough when conditions are less than ideal. Same goes for the disk breaks, less fuss to set them up to stop in the rain. Rim breaks can absolutely be set up to stop well in wet conditions. Just requires more attention than we sometimes have. That said, while I greatly appreciate the upgrades for what they offer, I don't like the plastic/weak feel of the Apex when shifting, though it shifts flawlessly all the time. It is also nice that it cleans up the bike a bit as far as cables and less mechanics sticking out to get bashed or caught. Again often a problem that occurs more with frequent travel than actual riding. So while I love love love our new bikes and what we use them for and wouldn't trade them for the world. I am imagining one day building up a simple, light, quill stem, friction shifting, rim breaking ran-do machine if only for the purpose of pure joy. All depends on what ya do and where you take your bike. Man this comment is embarrassingly long, just waking up after Long work day. Ride safe and enjoy life.
If you travel and tour 'long enough' you will eventually wear out proprietary parts (at the worst time) that you may not be able to find in some 'armpit' of the world. Friction shifting and non proprietary 'old junk' can solve that problem. Believe it or not.
Been there, done that. Lesson learned.
Just had the thought, I currently have a 10-speed Microshift Advent X, but if I get a friction bar-end shifter, and a 12-speed 11-50 cassette (I’ve tried that before for 10-speed on Advent X and it works fine), I can have more fun with my bike eh?
Everything old is new again..... love your work. Can always get a simple friction shifter. Works with Everything and there is this weird satisfaction of nailing a seamless shift from o e gear to another 😊
I started biking with downtube friction shifters, upgraded to indexed downtube shifters, tried bar-end shifters on a touring bike, and eventually moved to Campy ergo shifters. Never looked back. Bar-end shifters in my mind offer nothing over downtube shifters. The idea that you don't have to take your hands off the bars to shift falls apart unless you spend all your time in the drops. (And really, who does that?) The only thing friction shifters offer over indexed shifting is the ability to "trim" the front derailleur. The campy shifters offer that so no worries there.
Granted, all may experience is old, as I haven't upgraded from my old Campy 9 speed. Maybe if/when things wear out and I start pricing new stuff again I'll think about this again. What would be nice to see is a more in-depth video of the various types of friction shifters you show along with sources.
For drop bars, the choice for levers without shifters is really small. My hands just like GRX hoods better than the Tektro’s (and the like). It is a point of contact, so just as people are fussy about saddles or pedals, they also want a brake hood they like. For flat and alt bars, I think this all makes sense for non tech terrain, but for bumpy singletrack, friction is pretty finicky when the bike is in rodeo mode.
Yeah, I once tried my friend's bike with bar-end shifters and it was pretty fine all around except for tiny brake levers hand space. As it was supposed to be an offroad bike, loosing grip was way too easy.
Exactly my thought! Friction shifter is great in cruising mode when you no rush to urgently upshift before the sudden uphill. I wish there were friction shifters with customizable add-on indexed plates. Read my dedicated comment on that to learn more.
I modified thumb shifters to fit underneath my dropbar brake levers. I ride mostly in the hooks on singletrack. This is the best and most secure place to be on rough trail.
Riding on the hoods raises your center of gravity and forces your weight forward, not great for steep fast descents, nor will you have as secure a grip on the h'bars. Also powerful braking is not very practical riding in the hoods.
Most dirt drop bars are specifically designed to be ridden in the hooks. The key to utilizing them is to get a nice tall stem so your bars and saddle are about level.
Shimano 600
The answer for me there was to eliminate drop bars. I ride with a vintage Scott AT4 Pro with bar ends centrally mounted. How often do I see road riders on their drops? Almost never.
Hey, man ,can I use drop bar shifters on alt bars (something like surely open)? As in would it work. Got grx groupset and buying new shifters an brake levers would cost fortune. Just temporarily before I save up , drop bars are killing my wrists 😢
In the event I switch to a bar end shifter, what is your favorite mechanical pull drop-bar brake lever?
I was trying to build my bike with indexed bar-end Suntour Accushift, but didn't realize until the bike was built that I had paired accushift shifters with an accushift plus cassette. It's another example of the finnicky compatibility issues between systems of indexed shifting. Even though the shifters and cassette were both 7-speed, it wouldn't shift through the cassette unless I ran the shifters in friction mode. Not only was I forced to use friction, but I decided at that point that indexing was stupid. On a 7-speed friction system it's true that it's easy to end up between gears, but if you ride your bike frequently you learn how to shift by feel. You can also always look down at your derailleur to see if your chain is straight. A similar issue of something being slightly out of alignment on an indexed system would be ride-ending.
Proprietary parts and clicky bits are job security for some of us. Its an everyday thing. Go figure! Being a mechanic, I know that locating a very specific part on a moments notice is our biggest challenge.
As a mechanic, I'd much rather spend more time riding than wrenching. Ironically my friction shifting bikes require very little maintenance and fiddling, even when I beat the snot out of them!
I'm quite old school and I ride steel bikes with alloy rims and calliper brakes. I have however moved from down tube shifters to brifters for the convenience of not letting go of the handlebars. But the way bike design seems to be herding everyone into the race bike category, I too have been wondering if the prices continue to make sense. Where I ride, roads are often crowded, and usually rough. So till now safety is one reason I've remained with brifters without too much thought. But increasingly, I've been wondering about the Gevenalle shifters. Your video came at the right time.
So true. High quality simplicity meets most needs for a pleasant ride that is also easy to maintain and upgrade. Everything in bikes seems so geared toward speed and competition it’s nice to see someone talk about what really works. Thanks.
I ride single speed. Converted from a road bike. Can someone explain to me why there are now 13 speeds? I understand why and what gears are for. I understand pro racing. I understand dialing in and the “exacting everything” ho-ha. But why?
That’s a great explanation and it makes a lot of sense but where I ride, there’s a lot of short, steep climbs that are followed by short descents. I shift A LOT. Bar end shifters definitely wouldn’t be good. Maybe something thumb-operated would work. The friction-part doesn’t scare me. I do love the low-maintenance aspect. Great info again!
Maybe this will change after my 20s, I really appreciate the ergonomics of an indexed brifter on a drop bar bike. For me a better compromise to make in order to achieve a reasonable price is in drivetrain speeds. 10 speed sram, and even better 9 speed Shimano have built in "mullet compatibility". Brand new Shimano 9 speed brifters and derailleurs can be had for $200 or less brand new.
You rule Russ!! Keep fighting the good fight!
Any problems holding gear climbing steep gradients when in the small-front to big-rear gear combo? Thanks
I'm older, and I do sometimes feel nostalgic for the old friction shifting (downtube in my case). But surely it would be worse in the era of 10,11 or even 12 cogs on the back, not better as you argue. I remember that six cogs were covered by a 90 degree movement in lever (15 degrees per gear) and that could now be as low as 7.5 degrees per gear with 12-speed cassette. I think it would be easier to mess up than ever, because more precision is required. In the old days we used to pull the lever a little too far and edge it back until any noise stopped.
Front friction shifting was the best. Slam forward or back. Hand off the bar for two seconds max.
Until you’ve actually tried it I’d withhold judgement. I thought it would be worse but it simply isn’t. A total freakanomics misconception.
As you kind of pointed out It depends a lot on the actual shifter, if you try and use an old friction shifter from the DT era to operate 12 gears, its doable but it will take some time and finesse (some have difficulty holding the tension of modern derailleurs in the bigger cogs too). A later shifter made with more gears in mind that has a larger cable spool and a more sophisticated tension system (basically any produced in the last 10 years) become really easy and intuitive to operate. Another thing to consider is the pull ratio of the RD Vs. the size of the spool. RD's that need to pull more cable per shift may run out throw at the lever on a small spooled shifter before you hit all the gears, and ones that pull very little will hit all the gears but "waste" half the throw.
@@PathLessPedaledTV I think the point Is why the hassle? You’re already saying you’ve tried this and that bar end. That means one is buying numerous parts to find the correct one. Less distractions and muscle memory. Vintage shifters are also not cheap. I know it’s opinion. I’m just making a counter argument.
Oh. Chinese shifting companies are getting much better. It’s at a fraction of the cost - wire or electric. Yes, sensah is becoming popular, but I just saw a company called Wheeltop which makes a flat bar EDS totaling for $300 on flat bars which can be programmed via app 7-13 speeds. All wireless. If they made a drop bar shifter, wow. Just have to look out there. My two cents. Supply chain problems are an issue, but there are solutions.
Oooh now I want to see videos on all the friction shifter options. Especially alt bar stuff.
Very appreciated on this vid. Ill be building up a 90's mtb and modernizing the drivtrain. This just backs my thinking of going with friction shifting. Thanks Russ!
I have a touring 🚲 with these shifters. I've been looking at changing it out for thumb shifters plus it's ALWAYS had a problem between 7-8 ⚙️. Taken it to several shops over years no one has figured it out?
While I love some things about friction shifting, some are just inconvenient making shifting a bit more inconvenient means folks tend to shift less. Like anything, it's a use case and pros cons conversation.
I would put shifting into 3 categories.
1. Friction and indexed bar end
2. Integrated indexed shifting (brifters or STI levers)
3. Electronic
With each, these things are potential on a sliding scale....some are more rhetorical than others
1. Friction or IBE :
slowest shift,
most inconvenient shift (reaching or modified hand/body position to shift).
Bombproof: even bent derailleurs can be worked with and slight Friction adjustments can eliminate rub.
Limitations on higher speed count cassettes
Cheapest
2. Indexed integrated:
Shift from multiple hand potions on the bars and body positions.
Much faster shifting.
Potential for levers breaking or bent derailleur causing need for new parts and some great adjustment skills. No on the fly repair may leave you stuck in one gear.
Much more precise chain placement on the cassette which has implications for shift smoothness, speed, and wear of chain/cassette
Much more expensive incrementally when gear number increases
Can handle the latest higher number of speeds cassettes well
3. Electronic.
Theoretically the most likely to break....though I've yet to hear it leaving anyone stranded.
Fastest, smoothest, easiest shift and tactile pleasing.
Most expensive.
Best at handling all new high speed number cassettes.
Will optimize wear of components by exact chain placement (by how much ???)
Needs charging.
Shifting can be more easily done in even more hand positions because it is pushing a digital button not actuating cable.
No cables to get gunked up and sluggish.
Totally with ya Russ in that "you don't need these" but after touring with bar ends and a 3x8 for ultimate bomb proofness I so love the STI levers. Electronic is just an embellishment on everything great about indexed brifters.
What I love about STI levers and even more about electronic is the ease and quickness of shifting....it means you shift more and at least my ride is more smooth and enjoyable. I can shift in the drops and from the hoods where I ride a ton of the time and when I need to dump gears to climb it is quick and smooth so I can keep a nice cadence. I'm going to ride just STIs and electronic for a while and just see if I ever have any problems that I've been theoretically fearing.
Shifting is fun....I like lots of gears....I, like 2x and 3x too. Unless I really want to go supa party pace then 1x with a max 32 ring is just fine 😉🤙
BTW don't use friction shifters for shimano internal hub gearsets. You need indexed shifters specifically for those hubs of they have serious problems.
If you have an 8 speed Shimano internal hub, I've had the Jtek bar end shifter for internal hubs and it works great.
Except, of course, Rohloff hubs with their internal indexing. ;-)
You have a lot of valid points...you've given me food for thought.
Well done 👊
Love this. Although I will say I do have one bike with downtube shifters yet I run the rear der. (10spd 7900) in index mode. So I am kinda crossing two worlds? Anyhow, it's the best shifting bike I own. The cable runs are short, the shifts are positive and accurate.
One thing that seems attractive is the offering from Rivendell with the ratcheting shifters (Silver 2). Seems like a good way to get the versatility of a friction shifter with the tactile feel of an index. The one thing that confused me about them is the 9spd limit (I guess that is a cable pull issue) and the fact they don't work with Sram. Any experience here Russ?
I was cynical going into this video, but this was really well explained and I'm actually now quite interested in trying friction shifting. I like simple, elegant engineering and hate the way groupsets (and the bike industry as a whole) are going to be honest... Sounds like friction shifting is worth a look for me. Nice one Russ 👍
Interesting take! I never thought friction would work with so many speeds. Totally hear what you're saying: brifters are far too expensive, complicated and annoying and don't get me started on electronic. Back when I last did use friction (6 speed) you get the muscle memory after a very little time and shifting is very easy. Chain never rubs because you have infinite trim. I like 9sp indexed barcons but friction solves the whole galaxy of arbitrary compatibility problems you mention. Enough is enough with all that!
My Dura Ace 8&9 spd bar ends still shift perfect. On one set of the 9 speeds, the indexing wore out after only about 25 years or so. Friction still shifts perfect. Except for 2 of my MTBs all my bikes friction shift now.
I run 3x9.
And alt bars with lots of sweep.
Purchased for $100 ish a pr of MicroShift thumbies.
The left friction shifter shifts better than anything previously, and to be able to trim is just wonderful.
The right is either/or, but at the moment the index shifting is so much more precise than previous Shimano trigger shifters. Its staying as is.
It would be nice if there was some sort of internal micro-ratchet brifters, (like the freehubs with "over 9000" points of engagement or something) that would effectively be "friction" shifters. As other people have mentioned, having to take your hands off the bars (and brakes) to shift is less safe for me. (and to head off the gatekeeping "lern 2 shift" people, I've ridden enough tens of thousands of miles on various combos of friction, indexed, thumb, downtube, grip, stem, bar end, brifter, rapid fire, etc.. to know what I prefer and how to "shift good") The brifter-like Gevenalle system seems like it might be close, but just can't get over their aesthetics (shallow, I know, but I find them ugly and would not be happy with them because of that)
If you don’t like it, you don’t like it.
Yes not the best for riding among cars in the city trying to shift while you my have to emergency brake
I came up on friction shifting like a number of others here. I still like the action of friction shifting, but I've never had a friction shifting setup that didn't move around on its own, both front and rear. It triggers an OCD-like reaction in me. Kudos to those who have no issues along these lines but apparently this cannot be me, including a relatively newer Clem L so it's not just old bikes for me either.
I agree with you. Indexed rear is wonderful. I still prefer the speed and control of friction front shifting. Could be due to my cross chaining habits though.
I grew up with downtube shifters, and know exactly what you mean about friction shifters moving out of position on their own - for example the old Campagnolo levers from the 1950/60s. A major refinement came out in the 1980s, maybe earlier. These were downtube levers made by Simplex, and they were called 'retrofriction' levers - once in place, they stayed put. I've never taken one of these apart, so I don't know how they work - but they're excellent. I have them on all of my bikes. They're compact and elegant - have a look on eBay, or you might be lucky and fine some NOS examples.
@@gam1471 I don't know what it is with me but all retrofriction shifters move around on me front and rear.
You left one thing out. I have the Gevenalle shifter made for a rear freewheel cluster of 7 or 8 speeds. I leave it in friction mode. I will upgrade my rear derailleur to a dyna-sys shifter. Now the plan is to convert the rear cluster for hill climbing, maybe not super pancake but semi-pancake. Are you saying that my Gevenalle shifter could handle that? If I instead made the gear cluster a 10 or 11 speed it could, in friction mode only, handle that too?
10 is fine. 11 you may need a new shifter.
I finally did it! 2x10 Deore MTB drivetrain with Microshift bar end shifters!! Thanks for these videos for giving me that push to do it
When they first brought in index shifters, it always seemed to me a solution to a non-existent problem. Every bike I've had with index shifters, they've got increasingly temperamental in some part of the range as time goes on. Friction shifting was just so blissfully simple and reliable. But don't listen to me, I'm an old fogey....
Someone once said that the ability to change gear while sprinting (an ability they attributed to indexed shifters) was so advantageous it felt like cheating. Not that I, an old fogey, shift while sprinting.
YES. Friction shifting is just plain fun. You can feel your drivetrain and coax your chain to the next gear and move it back after moving too far. Index shifting takes work to setup and maintain. Friction shifters are install and go.
Stupid question, do I still need to adhere to the RD max cassette size recommendation?
I set up a 10 speed with bar and shifters with the fixie brakes that were set back a little bit. The breaks were placed in between the middle finger and the ring finger. I first cut a groove on the inside of the clamp to allow the cable from the shifter to pass through the break clamp. I then made a metal sleeve from a strip of an aluminum can to cover the shifter cable between the break clamp and the shifters. I then wrapped that up with tape. I added foam padding to level it out out before I put the grip tape on it.
The cables were a bit tight around the bends. I experimented with flipping the breaks.
I utterly loved moving to indexed shifting... It's so great just hitting the thumb levers up or down and being 'in' the gear without a thought. Friction shifting is a solution to a problem that SHOULDN'T EXIST. The crazy stupidity of incompatibility of pull-ratios between manufacturers and WITHIN manufacturers is the real problem.
Yup. Couldn't have described it better. Both have their place, but the problem is literally & figuratively a manufactured one.
Think its more a branding issue. They should really make things standard across the board.
I tried an older friction bar end shifter with my SLX 11spd deraileur, and was only able to get about 6 of the 11 speeds. Do newer friction shifters pull more total cable length? I was disappointed that it didn't work, but I'll give it another shot if it's a simple matter of getting a newer shifter.
Yes you need a newer friction shifter.
@@PathLessPedaledTV Got it, thanks! 🤘
Thinking about moving back to friction shifting as well. One shifting issue that may be easier with friction is when the chain gets nasty dirty or worn past its prime and you can’t readily change or clean it (such as on a multi day rides on gravel or trails).
Does anyone else out there have any thoughts?
I switched back to friction shifting on my recumbent bike years ago-- the long chain line and complex cable routing made friction a better choice. Friction shifting is great! Welcome to the world of retro-grouch living, Russ!
Now, if you want to go a step further for fun-- 1/2 step + granny 15 speeds are absolutely lovely without the huge cluster and without the wear of cogs smaller than 14 teeth.
Really appreciate this, great stuff Russ
I go even simpler, 2×setup 26/38 to a 12-36 9spd cassette. Most of the time I use it as a 1× so both front chainrings can be narrow/wide teeth, no front mech and just manually change in the rare times I need the 26 tooth chainring, more durability less complication.
Good to see someone not following the party line.
how well would friction shifters hold up on a surly crosscheck gravel bike that only does rough terrain? does bumping around through rock gardens mess with the shifters?
I have it on all my personal gravel bikes and it works great.
There is no doubt that friction shiting while riding on rough technical terrain is more frustrating and more problematic than indexed shifting. But gravel, except maybe high speed on 2" (or larger) crushed rock isn't what I'd call rough or technical in this context.
Thanks for the content Russ. I am currently building up a gravel bike that will also be used as a light touring machine. My plan is to go 1x on this one and use friction with an 11 speed rear mech. I want this one to be simple and trouble free. Would you recommend the Riv shifter or do you also have some other recommendations? Seeing a few others out there. I would appreciate any other viewer suggestions also. Ride on!
I have an 11 speed Deore setup with the compatible Microshift shifter. You can get them in bar end or thumbie. I run it in friction on my Evasion, but I had the same setup on an old Rockhopper and indexing worked really well too. They also have SRAM compatible options.
Sounds like a great advice, I guess I wait until my brifters break and convert to friction!! Thanks for the great content 👏
I ditched the index since my last tour in South America in 2016; now running exclusively friction shift and 26 inch. I've been riding since 1986 and witnessed all the booms and bursts but nothing beats the simplicity of physic.
Hell yeah Russ, makes total sense! Love all your vids.
Hi,
Thanks for the infos. You made me searching for the microshift gear. For 11 speeds, i found BS-A11 for road compatible Shimano rear derailleur but it seems for indexing only (micro-index for front). There is too the BS-M11 suited for MTB Shimano derailleurs. Since the 11 speed rear MTB derailleurs need more cable pulling than the road ones, i think the BS-M11 would be the only solution to use with road derailleurs, but without using indexing (and perhaps OK with 12 speeds ?). Does anyone know other shifters that can be used in friction mode for 11 speeds?
Diacompe has a handlebar and wing shifter that will do 11spd.
while waiting for parts for my grx gravel bike, all summer, have been riding my old steel road bike with friction shifters. took the front deraileur off too. = no more frustrating, chain rub, no more deraileur adjustment, simple, easy, reliable. i love it
been the only way to make a mtb deraileur work with the 46t cassette i put on this 1988 marinoni. no worries
I love friction and may consider changing all my bikes to it one day. People say it's too hard to get into the right gear. I say the problem is they aren't taking the time to get familiar with the bike. You have to develop the muscle memory of how much cable to pull, and learn to do it slow until you feel the gear click on.
Totally agree with you. I love my mid 80s friction shifter (Deerhead Shimano). It’s worked since 1986!
I have grabbed an old 35 years old bike with friction shifter and Ive fallen in love with it.
It takes time to have the muscle memory not to shift in between but its just takes a weight from my shoulder as maintenance goes. Im not sure its a good idea on a CX or XC bike.
so, I have a 7 speed shifter and a 7 speed cassette. Can I upgrade my rear derailleur with a Shimano 105 which is a 10+ speed derailleur with no issues since, The shifter itself is what dictates the amount of gears a derailleur can shift into?
No. Past 10 speed the required pull has increased. You would need a modern friction shifter like the Microshift ones.
@@PathLessPedaledTV So a Sora would work then? Sora is a 9 speed.
@@JohnLumapaskeith No. 10+ derailleurs require more pull than 9spd friction shifters. You need to get the 11/12 spd Microshift or Dia Compe shifters.
@@PathLessPedaledTV OK, thank you.
One of the things I love about friction shifting is that I can do it much more quietly than most people using indexing. It's a skill you develop, muscle memory. If you can learn to ride smooth and straight, maneuver your bike nimbly riding in a group or in traffic, then there is no reason you can't learn to shift accurately and quietly with friction. I love the simplicity of bicycles. New bikes are becoming more and more complex. Some don't mind, but for me, simplicity is beauty.
Russ, Thank you so much for all the info. You have made my decision for the retro rando build that is being made for me.
Could friction shifters be used to make a 10spd derailleur work with an 11spd cassette?
Yes
Thumbies for drop bars? Any links for where I can purchase / review?
I have 5 bikes: My MTB is 1x8 with a $20 GripShift running a 11-42; my gravel bike is 1x10 with an option ghost ring up front (no front derailleur) for really low gears, everything else is 2x10. I did a cassette and chain change last week for $45: Made me smile (when my buddy bragged about his $320 new cassette)
Fantastic video. Totally agree. In my new build going da 10 speed bar end shifters. Looking forward to it. I am a huge fan of Gevenalle but, had to switch it up because of the pull on the brake cables. Keep up the great work!!!
I waited to hear everything you said. Happy to hear that you do recognize that there are valid uses for indexed shifters. I've been riding electronic groups since 2010, I will never, ever, go back to mechanical---indexed or not.
I really want to try bar end friction shifters but I also love having a bar end cateye mirror. I was actually looking at the grevenalle shifters, but they seem kinda pricey, especially when my current ones work fine.
Used a cat eye bar end mirror for a long time but go with a bar end for your front derailer and start using a mirror mounted to your glasses. Glass frame mounted mirrors are a lot better than bar end mirrors!