***This method of backing up my device is the result of a handful of conversations with Robert Wood (Wood Hunting Saddles) and not my own method. Thank you Robert!
Matt, I do basically the same thing but use an ATC instead of a mechanical belay device as like to be as minimalistic and don’t want to use mechanical devices or spend the money for one. The ATC or ATC Guide tends your back up hitch in the same fashion and the set up works great and is very safe. No need to detach or change anything to repel. Enjoyed your video, us older guys need to keep the young bucks in line…..lol!
Just bear with me. I took down my latest SRT climbing & rapell system out of a climbing 🌳 in my yard. I did it an hour after sundown in chilly MN. All o had to assist was my dim headlamp. I also 30 feet up in a maple 🌳. The crotch or union in the 🌳 is @ 32' feet. I repelled down from 30' & collapsed my whole system in the dark in less than 5 minutes. The preset I use to attach my climbing rope to the 🌳 was tied nicely 7' up. My system is a Sterling CRV 9MM rope with a large sewn loop. That sewn loop is what the tag end of my SRT climbing line goes through to the ground. A length of paracord that has a loop @ the end attached to a clip @ the base of the large sewn loop is all that is needed. I simply pull the girth hitch out of the tree. When the loop is on the ground the other end of the paracord loop I going over the crotch 3×' up. When that comes down u simply wrap the clip & the loop around a 🌳 like 7' off the ground. Exactly like u would do after an evening hunt. If u take 8 feet of Oplux there is a way to make an adjustable redundant bridge that is not single but double Oplux with just one single link of chain & no carabiner. I do alot of 🌳 cutting up off the ground & the redundant bridge supports my lifeline in case something in the tree fails that I'm tied into that I have a backup to another 🌳 nearby which will avoid me from hitting the ground. It's a very easy to tie the redundant bridge that way. My saddle is tied on the right side & on the left the Oplux simply just threads its way to the loop on the left & comes back to the right side to finish the hitch system. 😮😅
Great video, exactly what I've been looking at. I've been asking tons of folks who make their own hitch cords, what is your preferred way to tie/make loops on each end? I've been toying with making some tied eye to eye split tail cords but always looking for better/easier ways.
Thanks for watching, Anthony! I'm glad it was helpful. My preferred way to make loops is to make sewn eyes and then put heat shrink over the threads. It was a bit of an overkill but I used 300lb braided fishing line because I have a bunch on hand. I went to Walmart and bought a pack of large sewing needles really cheap and they work great. Hope that helps!
Nice video. I'm wondering about the hitch though. It looks like you are tying a Distel and not a Cornell. I've used both, and like both, so not super important but wanted to mention.
Was think about when I get to hunting height, unhook my linesman belt from around the tree. And use linesman belt that to create a secondary bridge as backup,tied off to the linesman loops. Would this be a dumb idea? Haven’t tried to see if it works.
Thanks for the information Matt. But I am still wondering what mechanical damage it is. I can imagine the Safeguard stop function as brake if the rope is not feeded to it. If somehow the mechanical damage really happened, what would the climber be? Because there are tons of videos that say "tie a stop knot for safety" and the stop knot will definitely stop feeding rope.
Good information and well thought out and tested. Excuse my ignorance, but are you backing up your device because it’s mechanical or is there another reason? To me you’re only backing up a portion of the setup (for example the tree tether)
Great question, Dave! Mechanical devices have the potential to fail under certain circumstances due to the positions we put them in and by the way we use them while one-sticking. When bending down to grab your stick while making a move the rope "can" slip through the device and you can fall. I personally witnessed this happen (along with Robert Wood - Wood Hunting Saddles owner, and a few others) to a guy at the Florida saddle meet up. He dropped straight to the ground in an instant. Luckily he was only up about 8 feet. In addition, rock climbers and tree arborists always back up their devices (including an ATC belay device) above the device as a secondary safety. In the event of a heart attack or blacking out or some other emergency situation a backup hitch will stop you from falling if you inadvertently hold onto the handle of the device. Great question! Thanks for watching!
One additional point I'll make regarding why you should always back up your device is this... We all know that you should never take your brake hand off of the rope and saddle hunters do it all the time while sitting and hunting, hanging a platform, stick, etc. so backing up your device is essential.
Might be an elementary question but first year saddle hunter here … why do you need a second bridge? Couldn’t you just add it to original bridge and still have a backup? I am concerned with hip fatigue with a secondary placement on the bridge area.
First thanks for not using an 8mm rope in this while worried about how we back it up. The context as to the falls and how the device works is NOT now we using it. I’ve been working on collecting B-roll. As a professional mountain guide I have and continue to put a friction hitch below an assist braking device (madrock, grigri, etc) and I will continue to tie a hard blocking or a soft blocking knot. We are not lead or even top rope climbing, which is the context the madrock safety pamphlet addresses. I’ll pause product design and focus on a video clarifying all of this.
I'm not a professional, and I agree that we are not lead or top rope climbing, but backing up above the device even in our application is still the correct method simply by how the device was designed to function once under a load/fall. I don't think putting a blocking knot below the device would necessarily be a bad thing if it was only to go hands-free while sitting stationary while not moving up or down your main line but I do think any time we're moving a hitch needs to be above. While at the Florida saddle hunter meetup this past winter a few of us witnessed a guy fall to the ground while reaching down to grab his stick while making a move. Luckily he was only about 8' off the ground. Looking forward to seeing your video on it. Thank for the comment and for watching! 👍🏼
@@madhuntsadventures I'd like to hear more about the situation of the fall. I agree a friction hitch above is A correct way of connecting and I am aware of what Madrock says. In my experience it is not the ONLY safe way to back up the device. I should have the video up today, editing is a perishable skill ha!
@@thefullaj All I know is that he was bending down to grab his one-stick which put his Safeguard at an angle (to the rope) and he went straight to the ground in the blink of an eye. I've been told that when you twist a mechanical device in that type of angle with a load in it it can allow your rope to slip through it. After witnessing that incident I believe it so I alway back it up while climbing or rappelling.
Watched your video AJ. Noticed that you didn’t address one sticking (many guys do so using a belay device and their climbing line. You didn’t even use a platform to mimic a fall from the platform. Your knot seemed to get extremely tight from just your weight being applied to it. For our application guys who one stick are unassisted “lead climbing” as they advance their connection up as they climb the stick and aider. Guys that SRT climb are basically self belay/rappel top climbers. They are always below their connection point and would basically dangle however even the smallest introduction of slack (such as a small branch breaking or the eye slipping in wet conditions) can produce a dynamic event. Again this is tree climbing static lines not rock climbing dynamic ropes with a secondary belayer. You also didn’t mention the potential for the brake line autoblock to lock up in even a short dynamic fall which could cause someone to twist in an unexpected and unsafe way. If the angle of a twist is severe enough the assisted braking cam can release which is what happened at saddleflaooza. Further more there is a big difference in a hands free device that is “auto braking” and an assisted braking device which is why the MANUFACTURER of the belay/rappel device recommends the hitch above the device instead of the knot or hitch below it. Saddle hunting is “work positioning” which means it must meet fall restraint measures but with the caveat that there is potential for a dynamic fall (OSHA/ANSI says that fall is to be 2 feet or less) on static line a 2’ fall can produce pretty high forces. Since Madrock hasn’t told us the force required to damage the internal clevis pin, we should stick to following their recommendations for using their products, as a professional guide, we would think you would do the same for people that you lead up mountain sides. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience and good luck with HuntLyte and your saddle hunting endeavors
@@WoodHuntingSaddles Thank you for your feedback, I'll make a new video addressing the points of concern you bring up. Can you please clarify what you mean by "...there is a big difference in a hands free device that is “auto braking” and an assisted braking device..." An example of each device would bee helpful so we are on the same page. I look forward to seeing more of your content and likewise you've a great looking saddle.
@@ToddCBrown I'm actually using 5mm cord which isn't recommended but I bought 2 different cords (6mm & 7mm) and neither of them work with my 9mm main line. So I tried my 5mm Sterling cord and it works great. However, I reached out to Sterling and they didn't recommend it (they couldn't for legal reasons) but I can tell you that I've tested it and it works just fine. But I don't recommend it either. lol
Great question, Otis! The dog bone is from Custom Gear Modifications (CGM) and is a 3/16" Amsteel and is 22" long. You could email CGM and ask if they are selling them. Hope that helps!
That’s actually not a Cornell hitch. Your tying it incorrectly. When you bring the top leg down and across, go under your tether and over the other leg of the hitch and poke under the x. You went under the other leg not over, missing a big portion of the friction hitch!
Amsteel is incredibly unsafe. It's slippery and wasn't designed for rope knots, and it's fed into itself like a chinese fingertrap that can, and does, come undone. I've already had to trash a bridge prussik because it wore thin after only one season.
I'm using 5mm Sterling accessory cord but I don't recommend it. Sterling recommends a minimum of 6mm cord for a backup. I tried using 6mm and it kept slipping on my main line so I went with the 5mm and it holds really well. I've tested it and feel comfortable using it. It is recommend to use no less than 2-3mm smaller than your main line. I don't recall the length of mine. Since I made it myself I just held it up to my setup and used what I needed. Hope that helps!
Great question, Micah! I am using 5mm Sterling accessory cord but I don't recommend that you use what I am. I believe Sterling recommends 6mm as the minimum for a backup but I have tested mine and feel comfortable using it as a backup. I tried using 6mm but it wouldn't bite on my 9mm Sterling HTP climbing rope so I went with the 5mm. It is recommend that you only go 2-3mm smaller than your main climbing line. I don't recall the length as I handmade it myself (sewn eyes, etc.) to work with my secondary bridge. Hope that helps!
@@madhuntsadventures thanks, my rappel is 9.5mm and I can’t seem to find any cord that is good length wise and I’m definitely not comfortable making my own haha
@@micahroberson1234 Have you tried emailing any climbing supply companies? Many of them will make custom gear if you tell them what you need. Just a thought. 👍🏼
I never understood the concept of backing up below. Mechanical rope grabs can cut the rope on a hard enough fall. If the rope breaks in the device you are done.
***This method of backing up my device is the result of a handful of conversations with Robert Wood (Wood Hunting Saddles) and not my own method. Thank you Robert!
Matt,
I do basically the same thing but use an ATC instead of a mechanical belay device as like to be as minimalistic and don’t want to use mechanical devices or spend the money for one. The ATC or ATC Guide tends your back up hitch in the same fashion and the set up works great and is very safe. No need to detach or change anything to repel.
Enjoyed your video, us older guys need to keep the young bucks in line…..lol!
At this point why not ascend and hunt from a friction hitch and rappel with a figure 8 type device? Making things way to complicated imo
Thanks for being you brother. God bless you
All glory to God, Sean! May God bless you as well, brother! 👍🏼
@@madhuntsadventures amen, thanks !
Good info safety is important! Thanks!!
Absolutely it is! Thanks for watching, Mark!
Thanks for the update and trying to keep everyone safe
You bet, C Price! Thank you for watching!
@@madhuntsadventures looking forward to Birmingham
@@cdp50359 You got that right! 😂
Thank you I will give this a try. Keep the info coming. Thanks again
Just bear with me. I took down my latest SRT climbing & rapell system out of a climbing 🌳 in my yard. I did it an hour after sundown in chilly MN. All o had to assist was my dim headlamp. I also 30 feet up in a maple 🌳. The crotch or union in the 🌳 is @ 32' feet. I repelled down from 30' & collapsed my whole system in the dark in less than 5 minutes. The preset I use to attach my climbing rope to the 🌳 was tied nicely 7' up. My system is a Sterling CRV 9MM rope with a large sewn loop. That sewn loop is what the tag end of my SRT climbing line goes through to the ground. A length of paracord that has a loop @ the end attached to a clip @ the base of the large sewn loop is all that is needed. I simply pull the girth hitch out of the tree. When the loop is on the ground the other end of the paracord loop I going over the crotch 3×' up. When that comes down u simply wrap the clip & the loop around a 🌳 like 7' off the ground. Exactly like u would do after an evening hunt. If u take 8 feet of Oplux there is a way to make an adjustable redundant bridge that is not single but double Oplux with just one single link of chain & no carabiner. I do alot of 🌳 cutting up off the ground & the redundant bridge supports my lifeline in case something in the tree fails that I'm tied into that I have a backup to another 🌳 nearby which will avoid me from hitting the ground. It's a very easy to tie the redundant bridge that way. My saddle is tied on the right side & on the left the Oplux simply just threads its way to the loop on the left & comes back to the right side to finish the hitch system. 😮😅
Another stellar video Matt. Glad to hear the hitch and tender method worked out. Great detail in your explanation. You get a 5 on our spreadsheet!!!
😂😂😂 I love it!
Thanks for the information Matt. I'm still just using a prusik, but it's good seeing all the methods others use while keeping safe! God Bless!
Nothing wrong with a prusik, John! I'm just glad to hear others are using them and practicing safety. Thanks for watching! 👍🏼
Good video. Thanks. My question is, why don't you go with a JRB Hitch or one of his other hitches and just get rid of the MadRock?
Great video, exactly what I've been looking at. I've been asking tons of folks who make their own hitch cords, what is your preferred way to tie/make loops on each end? I've been toying with making some tied eye to eye split tail cords but always looking for better/easier ways.
Thanks for watching, Anthony! I'm glad it was helpful. My preferred way to make loops is to make sewn eyes and then put heat shrink over the threads. It was a bit of an overkill but I used 300lb braided fishing line because I have a bunch on hand. I went to Walmart and bought a pack of large sewing needles really cheap and they work great. Hope that helps!
Awesome Content. Thanks For sharing. have a nice day!❤👍
Thanks for the video and this video is very helpful! Odd question but who did your hats because they are 🔥
Nice video. I'm wondering about the hitch though. It looks like you are tying a Distel and not a Cornell. I've used both, and like both, so not super important but wanted to mention.
Was think about when I get to hunting height, unhook my linesman belt from around the tree. And use linesman belt that to create a secondary bridge as backup,tied off to the linesman loops. Would this be a dumb idea? Haven’t tried to see if it works.
Thanks for the update
You got it, Kevin! Thanks for watching!
Thanks for the information Matt. But I am still wondering what mechanical damage it is. I can imagine the Safeguard stop function as brake if the rope is not feeded to it. If somehow the mechanical damage really happened, what would the climber be? Because there are tons of videos that say "tie a stop knot for safety" and the stop knot will definitely stop feeding rope.
Good information and well thought out and tested. Excuse my ignorance, but are you backing up your device because it’s mechanical or is there another reason? To me you’re only backing up a portion of the setup (for example the tree tether)
Great question, Dave! Mechanical devices have the potential to fail under certain circumstances due to the positions we put them in and by the way we use them while one-sticking. When bending down to grab your stick while making a move the rope "can" slip through the device and you can fall. I personally witnessed this happen (along with Robert Wood - Wood Hunting Saddles owner, and a few others) to a guy at the Florida saddle meet up. He dropped straight to the ground in an instant. Luckily he was only up about 8 feet.
In addition, rock climbers and tree arborists always back up their devices (including an ATC belay device) above the device as a secondary safety. In the event of a heart attack or blacking out or some other emergency situation a backup hitch will stop you from falling if you inadvertently hold onto the handle of the device. Great question!
Thanks for watching!
One additional point I'll make regarding why you should always back up your device is this...
We all know that you should never take your brake hand off of the rope and saddle hunters do it all the time while sitting and hunting, hanging a platform, stick, etc. so backing up your device is essential.
Great tip! Thanks Matt!
Thanks for watching, MHF! I appreciate it!
Might be an elementary question but first year saddle hunter here … why do you need a second bridge? Couldn’t you just add it to original bridge and still have a backup? I am concerned with hip fatigue with a secondary placement on the bridge area.
He just appears to want as much redundancy in his system as possible.
What is the length of the amsteel continous loop and dog bone that you was using as secondary bridge and the back up for the madrock.
Good info buddy thanks for sharing
Thank you for watching, Brian! I truly appreciate it!
Have you ever considered using the Notch V3 Quickie to replace a delta/ quick link?
I don't use a quick link but the Quickie does look cool! I'm currently running the JRB Cinch. Thanks for the info, Konner!
I usually tie an alpine butterfly as a stopper knot and clip it into the carabiner. Is this unsafe?
cant you just attach the fritction hitch to the main carrabinger? I dont understand why you need an extra bridge or carrabinger.
What size Amsteel are you using for your secondary bridge. Is it the same for the dog bone and the continuous loop?
Also what length are each of those?
First thanks for not using an 8mm rope in this while worried about how we back it up. The context as to the falls and how the device works is NOT now we using it. I’ve been working on collecting B-roll. As a professional mountain guide I have and continue to put a friction hitch below an assist braking device (madrock, grigri, etc) and I will continue to tie a hard blocking or a soft blocking knot. We are not lead or even top rope climbing, which is the context the madrock safety pamphlet addresses. I’ll pause product design and focus on a video clarifying all of this.
I'm not a professional, and I agree that we are not lead or top rope climbing, but backing up above the device even in our application is still the correct method simply by how the device was designed to function once under a load/fall. I don't think putting a blocking knot below the device would necessarily be a bad thing if it was only to go hands-free while sitting stationary while not moving up or down your main line but I do think any time we're moving a hitch needs to be above.
While at the Florida saddle hunter meetup this past winter a few of us witnessed a guy fall to the ground while reaching down to grab his stick while making a move. Luckily he was only about 8' off the ground.
Looking forward to seeing your video on it. Thank for the comment and for watching! 👍🏼
@@madhuntsadventures I'd like to hear more about the situation of the fall. I agree a friction hitch above is A correct way of connecting and I am aware of what Madrock says. In my experience it is not the ONLY safe way to back up the device. I should have the video up today, editing is a perishable skill ha!
@@thefullaj All I know is that he was bending down to grab his one-stick which put his Safeguard at an angle (to the rope) and he went straight to the ground in the blink of an eye. I've been told that when you twist a mechanical device in that type of angle with a load in it it can allow your rope to slip through it. After witnessing that incident I believe it so I alway back it up while climbing or rappelling.
Watched your video AJ. Noticed that you didn’t address one sticking (many guys do so using a belay device and their climbing line. You didn’t even use a platform to mimic a fall from the platform. Your knot seemed to get extremely tight from just your weight being applied to it. For our application guys who one stick are unassisted “lead climbing” as they advance their connection up as they climb the stick and aider. Guys that SRT climb are basically self belay/rappel top climbers. They are always below their connection point and would basically dangle however even the smallest introduction of slack (such as a small branch breaking or the eye slipping in wet conditions) can produce a dynamic event. Again this is tree climbing static lines not rock climbing dynamic ropes with a secondary belayer. You also didn’t mention the potential for the brake line autoblock to lock up in even a short dynamic fall which could cause someone to twist in an unexpected and unsafe way. If the angle of a twist is severe enough the assisted braking cam can release which is what happened at saddleflaooza. Further more there is a big difference in a hands free device that is “auto braking” and an assisted braking device which is why the MANUFACTURER of the belay/rappel device recommends the hitch above the device instead of the knot or hitch below it. Saddle hunting is “work positioning” which means it must meet fall restraint measures but with the caveat that there is potential for a dynamic fall (OSHA/ANSI says that fall is to be 2 feet or less) on static line a 2’ fall can produce pretty high forces. Since Madrock hasn’t told us the force required to damage the internal clevis pin, we should stick to following their recommendations for using their products, as a professional guide, we would think you would do the same for people that you lead up mountain sides. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience and good luck with HuntLyte and your saddle hunting endeavors
@@WoodHuntingSaddles Thank you for your feedback, I'll make a new video addressing the points of concern you bring up. Can you please clarify what you mean by "...there is a big difference in a hands free device that is “auto braking” and an assisted braking device..." An example of each device would bee helpful so we are on the same page. I look forward to seeing more of your content and likewise you've a great looking saddle.
Thank you, How long were the dog bone and continuous loop for your backup?
Great question, Todd! I'll need to take a measurement and get back to you on that. 👍🏼
While you're look at that, what is the size? 7mm, 6mm... ? I used this method but what I bought seems much thicker than yours.
@@ToddCBrown I'm actually using 5mm cord which isn't recommended but I bought 2 different cords (6mm & 7mm) and neither of them work with my 9mm main line. So I tried my 5mm Sterling cord and it works great. However, I reached out to Sterling and they didn't recommend it (they couldn't for legal reasons) but I can tell you that I've tested it and it works just fine. But I don't recommend it either. lol
Attached to a second (2nd) bridge?
Can you not attach to main?
Ok… just seen your side note. Thanks
Basically it a prusik above the gri gri. Different name same concept
Same concept but totally different hitch. The Cornell Hitch breaks under load 10x better than a prusik. Thank you for watching!
I don't see the bridge material you use in the linked website. How long is the dogbone?
Great question, Otis! The dog bone is from Custom Gear Modifications (CGM) and is a 3/16" Amsteel and is 22" long. You could email CGM and ask if they are selling them. Hope that helps!
@@madhuntsadventures Thanks
That’s actually not a Cornell hitch. Your tying it incorrectly. When you bring the top leg down and across, go under your tether and over the other leg of the hitch and poke under the x. You went under the other leg not over, missing a big portion of the friction hitch!
Amsteel is incredibly unsafe. It's slippery and wasn't designed for rope knots, and it's fed into itself like a chinese fingertrap that can, and does, come undone. I've already had to trash a bridge prussik because it wore thin after only one season.
What diameter and length is the hitch cord?
I'm using 5mm Sterling accessory cord but I don't recommend it. Sterling recommends a minimum of 6mm cord for a backup. I tried using 6mm and it kept slipping on my main line so I went with the 5mm and it holds really well. I've tested it and feel comfortable using it. It is recommend to use no less than 2-3mm smaller than your main line.
I don't recall the length of mine. Since I made it myself I just held it up to my setup and used what I needed. Hope that helps!
What size rope and length are you using for the Cornell hitch?
Great question, Micah! I am using 5mm Sterling accessory cord but I don't recommend that you use what I am. I believe Sterling recommends 6mm as the minimum for a backup but I have tested mine and feel comfortable using it as a backup. I tried using 6mm but it wouldn't bite on my 9mm Sterling HTP climbing rope so I went with the 5mm. It is recommend that you only go 2-3mm smaller than your main climbing line.
I don't recall the length as I handmade it myself (sewn eyes, etc.) to work with my secondary bridge. Hope that helps!
@@madhuntsadventures thanks, my rappel is 9.5mm and I can’t seem to find any cord that is good length wise and I’m definitely not comfortable making my own haha
@@micahroberson1234 Have you tried emailing any climbing supply companies? Many of them will make custom gear if you tell them what you need. Just a thought. 👍🏼
@@madhuntsadventures I haven’t but that’s a good idea
I never understood the concept of backing up below. Mechanical rope grabs can cut the rope on a hard enough fall. If the rope breaks in the device you are done.
At this point all of this makes the old tree stand harness look simple. I’ll just stick with a ropes and no device.
😂😂 It really isn't as bad as it looks but I completely understand where you're coming from. Thanks for watching, Osborn For This!
Jesus all these ropes and knots just give me some sticks and a hang on stand
😂 It's really not as bad as it looks. Thanks for watching!
@@madhuntsadventures I’m still young maybe one day I’ll give it a shot