Is Hydraulic Steering ALWAYS Better Than Electric? ft. BMW 130i vs BMW 130i
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- čas přidán 14. 06. 2021
- A big thanks to @GeorgeAusters for bringing me his 130i for today's video. We are going to be talking about steering - specifically, is hydraulic always better?
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![[ENG CC] Hot Hatch Battle - Integra R DC5, BMW 130i M, Golf R32, 147 GTA, Audi A3 Tsukuba 2006](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/bF4upRjLqig/mqdefault.jpg)
You deal with real world car driving issues, concerns and mythical considerations superbly.
Why thankyou kind sir
Without a doubt 2021's best motoring channel and certainly the one which delivers real world driving content - there's always accessible cars on this channel, and dreamy ones too. Great work @JayEmm and top video.
Currently driving a pre-LCI 118d on summer tyres. I have to say - the hydraulic steering is unbelievably lovely. Makes the car an absolute joy to drive. Particulary next to the Mk5 Golf (electric rack) I also currently have.
Was a pleasure to meet you James, top notch video as always!
Btw thanks for turning my trousers brown from driving “enthusiastically” on your favourite roads👌🏼
Really helps me, a car person but wouldn’t go as far as enthusiast or mechanic type, bring to life the differences in terminology. Another great video
Always answering the most important questions, I love this channel
You're absolutely right. I bought a pre-LCI 130i and the steering is overly heavy. That would be ok if it would return feel but that's just not the case. Changed the PS pump + fluid(2x) but to no avail. Steering becomes super light when the rack is emptied of fluid. Checked it with other pre-LCI owners and they have the heavy steering too.
You can retrofit the HPAS instead of the EPAS steering and you can also use the E9x M3 steering rack with its shorter ratio. Its quite common mod to do and in UK its quite cheap to do around £300-£400 is what people on the forums usualy mention. The price can vary depending on if you get used or new hoses,pump,cooler and all the bits. From what ive read people who done this mod are very happy with it including those who went from standard hydraulic rack to the m3 one.
Thank you so much for this video
I can tell you’re absolutely right, because I did exactly that to my 1 series (although F20): I improved it for the track, replaced suspension, replaced brakes, adjusted the steering to be more sharpened. And while all that improved the track capabilities significantly and I kinda liked it - on the other side it completely ruined the car as a road car…
So yes, that’s what I was saying in your 130i video: the car is surely compromised, but it’s giving you pretty much 8 out of 10 for both the road and the track. There are better focused cars for sure, but there aren’t many compromises that are equally as good…
Thanks for the review! 👍
Always like your honest opinion that others might not dare saying
George stole my feature. For that I will never forgive him. Thanks for the moshimoto intake boot install video though 👍
Thanks J!
What about electro-hydraulic systems? They normally have the feel of hydraulic, but are still essentially electric. Peugeot 106, Citroen Saxo, Mini R50/53 for example...
Underrated comment..
the 3rd gen MR2 also uses this system
No, they are still exactly the same as any other hydraulic system in terms of what affects steering feel. They just power a hydraulic pump with an electric motor instead of a belt driven pump. That's totally irrelevant to how the system provides assistance to the rack.
@@pjay3028 that's what I thought
And most famously the entire McLaren range! :) So if it's good enough for McLaren, it must be jolly good. [In run-of-the-mill cars, the old Mazda range used electro-hydraulic steering up to 2012 too, before Mazda steering went fully electric.]
Thanks Jay, very useful! I have a question for all 130i owners on handling: Do you find that the handling limits (with standard tyres) are- like all modern BMWs- simply too high to toss around safely+explore the limits on public roads? (Versus for example an older car like and E30 or a Toyota GT86 with its skinny tyres....) Thanks!
I was recently looking for a 125i (coupe), specifically a small, fast drivers car. Then you released the recent review of the 1 series, and that sealed it for me. I now own a manual 2012 125i. I find the feel from the electric steering very positive. I think you are right - in real world terms these cars deliver perfectly good performance, feel etc and for the average enthusiast like myself (who doesn't have the road-telemetry-gathering hands and butt cheeks of an F1 driver), electric steering is absolutely fine in the 1 series. Cheers!
Thanks for the comparison, sounds like the lci overall will be a nicer car to have.
Imo the geomitry of the steering does more than what type of power assistance it has.
You can over assist a hydro rack too, robbing it of all feel.
I love the steering in my VW Corrado vr6.. that just has MacPherson struts, basically nicked from the Mk3 gti.
(Different springs and dampers iirc, but the same dimensions)
My Saab 900 classic (2.1i) has double wishbone suspension at the front.. but it doesnt come close to the Corrado in terms of handling and steering feel.
Depends, electric power steering can be done right.
What I don’t like is when they make the steering heavy but it has NO feedback at all, I prefer the steering in my 2010 Volvo V50 over whatever they put in the new 2-series. I drove one and BMW should go back to the drawing bord with that FWD chassi.
It own a e90 06 07 330i hydraulic stearing and its heavy and loose under breaking corners fantastic. But I do like it feels more natural
Which video is it, in which you talked about handling and steering feel?
For me I can say I like the hydraulic steering way more, I had a LCI 1 Series and have a pre LCI 2006 130i now for a year. The hydraulic steering feels a bit heavier in a really nice way, it just makes the handling better and it gives you just a really nice feeling I can't really describe in words (but yes I have KW Suspension in it and also a LSD, so I can't say how it drives stock). I think there is a good reason why the M models of this generation like the E92 M3 and the 1M coupe also had hydraulic steering, also as facelift. My brother just got himself a 130i aswell, this one is 3 door LCI and I am really looking forward to compare these two when the snow is gone in Austria. Interior wise I can confirm that the LCI is a bit better, but I don't really care about it and wouldn't give up my hydraulic steering for it.
Well. Depends on which car too. Some cars hydraulic steering is much better.
Or on the Alfa 4C, where its not really an issue of the non-assisted steering, but the suspension geometry.
I have the EPAS in my 130 and don’t think it’s all that bad, it’s certainly nicer than the EPAS in later cars like my previous M140i. The hydraulic steering in my old E90 was ok, but not exactly brimming with feel.
I’d far rather the benefits of the LCI with regards to interior improvements.
It's not only about feel (and the 130i hydraulic steering is FAR better than modern EPS).
It's the way it weights up in turns, not just feel/feedback.
EPS will never have that same feeling.
When dialled in (like you said not for everyone), the steering feel in the 130i is brilliant!
Just watched your review of the E86 Z4 3.0si with EPS. How do the two 130i (pre/post LCI) compare to the Z4?
Did all prefacelift versions of 1 series have hydraulic steering? I love hydraulic steering on my e46
They have hydraulic steering on the John Deere tractors I used to drive when I was younger. Lock to lock with a prod of the finger 🤣. I think there's much more to steering feel than people realise, like what suspension type, weight distribution for example
A manual steering rack is best...but if it has to be powered, go tranditional rack with hydraulic power.
I love the handeling of my old 87 supra and i love the hydrolic steering and its quite fun that the good old powersteering pump needs a sec to kick in if i start the car and go i will have to do the fist quarter of a turn with no power steering but what i thing is funny is that i have never driven a car with sutch clear driving feel and cumunication and still the power steering takes a second to get going i just call it the character of the car
Try a ma61
@@petersturt8746 i would love to bit they are cuite rare in my area (aka i havent seen one and dont know somone who has one)
@@MrPleps is that with the variable steering weight at speed? I bet its a similar system to my crown VX. It's just very high geared in mine, a fair bit of arm twirling but plenty off feel
@@chappy2121 nah i think it just does steering things tbh
Its not the rack you want to change, its the control arms, just switch them to M3 items and the steering feel will be much better
Seconded. the best mods for these cars involve OEM M3 parts.
my opinion is there are pros and cons of both but for me hydraulic has a little more feel but is slow and a little laggy in turning in and i prefer the response of the electric rack
What about Jaguar F-type?
Prefacelift got hydraulic, after facelifting got electric.
Is anybody was tested these two variants?
Is that a bot replying to everyone? ✌👍Love the channel
Yes, annoying
Do this video comparing B8 S4 with B8.5!
My e86 Z4 is electric steering and it is good but fall short of being excellent.
JayM. Recall the Tesla driver who had an unfortunate near fatal crash on the Pikes Peak Hill Climb event in 2019 ? He was referring to the electric steering that didn't respond fast enough into a corner on opposite lock & drove over a cliff ! V.
What about the birds M235i vs 130i hydraulic? If I recall correctly you really liked that steering and it was electric. Was it really better than the e92 m3??
Yeah, I mean, there’s way more to good steering feedback than just it being hydraulic, and the 1 series (besides the 1m) never had much feedback compared to like an E36 M3 or something.
McLaren use hydraulic power steering with an electrically driven pump, so I think that tells you all you need to know. :) Of course as to the question: a good electric system is still better than a bad hydraulic system. But McLaren's choice shows the fundamental benefit of how hydraulic assist doesn't filter out road feedback as much, due to the nature of how it works compared to the inertia and damping introduced by an electric motor, IIRC the problem is that electric motors 'hate' being driven backwards by road feedback in the opposite direction to the applied power assist torque.
@📍JayEmm 0n Cars reported 😉
I’ve owned both E90 325i pre LCI and LCI at the same time. I can tell you the steering feel is night and day btw them. I ended up selling the LCI and got a 987 Cayman S. I can also attest 987 hydraulic steering is so much better than E90 hydraulic rack.
It feels different, but neither car handles better because of the steering assistance or lack of. My old 3 series with hydraulic steering was terrible at low speeds because it was so heavy. But I’m sure that Porsche is a really nice handling car regardless of steering assistance.
I wonder if there will ever be a car that has switchable steering feel, so we can have that sharp feel for sporty driving and then go full Lexus for motorway journeys. Would be nice to have.
Without that, I'd much rather lack a little feel and be able to do long journeys comfortably- my 981CS has that balance spot on in my view. Precision can't be sacrificed though. I do think the top 3 cars I've driven for steering feel all had hydraulic racks (MX-5, FN2 Type R and Pug 306- the 997.2S I drove was a dog). However my top 3 cars for steering precision were all electric racks...
certain mclarens have a electric/hydraulic steering’s which is cool so you have the best of both worlds
Hi JayEmm, Great video. I had a pre facelift 130i, and the one thing that really bugged me was the steering. It had almost no self centering. That, in my opinion, was the one thing that stopped it feeling chuckable. An E36 328i I had also suffered from insufficiently strong self-centering, although not quite as bad as my 130i. Is this just a BMW power steering thing, that they don't put strong enough self centering on it? Maybe the electrics are better in this regard. I couldn't say as I've never driven a BM with electric PS. Keep up the good work. Thoroughly enjoy your vids.
Hmm.. I think it depends on geometry and what not. I had an e36 and still have an e46 and both had/have strong self centering. I've driven multiple e46s and all had good self centering. There was one 318CI pre-facelift that particularly struck me as having a very nice steering rack.
I know for sure that, on launch, the e46 had some overboosted racks. Maybe those were also put on the e36? What year was is yours.
I have both a pre-LCI (hydraulic) and an LCI (eps) 1 series. If your opinion is that the hydraulic 130i is bad, then I advice you stay really far from a EPS 1 series. The EPS is the one I drift the most, but you *really* need to quickly push the steering wheel yourself in order to catch and maintain drifts, specially linking corners: if you leave the eps try to do the countersteer for you, by the time the electric motor has accelerated the steering wheel, the car is already sideways spinning out. It's only acceptable self-aligning when doing very controlled slow drifts. The hydraulic steering whoever reacts much faster in those situations.
My ma's new CX-5 turbo had way more feel through the electric rack than any modern BMW I've driven (440i, M8 Comp, 330i 4cyl, 530i 4cyl)
The Mk7 golf I had (brand new company car) had truly awful steering (the Mk 7.5 we have now though is great so VW must have sorted it) however, my current car (2015 BMW F36) is not great holding dead centre. I prefer hydraulic tbh.
Power steering is great until it fails, then try turning the steering wheel.
This is when electric power steering gets you into a lot of trouble,
the same BMW system was used in the 3 series and the Mini.
It look a lot of bad press before BMW issued a recall to correct
a known problem.
I like the steering on my Peugeot 106 diesel. It makes every journey an adventure...
Is it because the steering wants to go it's own direction, not yours?
@@winterwinter7505 Ah, another 106 driver?
Luckiky no, but I wouldn't mind to try a GTI one some day. I'm just a Honda Jazz driver,. Are the normal 106 that terrible? They look kinda cool though
@@BibtheBoulder I don't have money to any cars right now, have 3 atm (have to get rid of an 06 Subaru Outback 3.0r, bought a 05 honda jazz as a beater.. And the collector/summer car is 99 Toyota MR2 sw20, the very last model year of these, German spec one though).
@@winterwinter7505 How ironic. I have a Subaru Forester, and also own a 'summer car'...
Yes.
CSL review would be bonkers.
I don't know if the electric steering in the lci 130i is the same as in the 428i, but if it is, it's horrible. I agree that you don't notice a huge difference when you driving spiritually. But and it's a big but, your everyday driving will be affected a lot. Just taking your eyes away from the road, even for a second, the car moves out from your lane without you noticing anything. Making constant corrections to stay in lane. In comparison, there is no comparison, the difference is night and day. I'm definitely missing the wonderful hydraulic rack of the older bimmers.
Having driven both the 130 and the z4m I’d say the z4 is faster slightly but the 130i handles much better or at least inspires more confidence
quite a bit faster if going 10/10 but more of a handful with the size
@@papa_pt which one is handful? The Z4 or the 130i?
Everyone who has driven my rx8 commented on how nice the steering felt, and that's all electric, some manufacturers get it wrong and right in both applications sadly
Toyota 86 does electric steering and does a surprisingly good job.
Lots of steering feedback gets really tiring on a long drive, BMW have a consistent amount of kingpin inclination (self cantering) across their range of models that reflects a compromise between comfort and driver enjoyment.
What gets annoying is that constant correction to stay in lane in your everyday driving. Makes you scared of taking your eyes away from the road to just read what song you are listening to, or even checking your mirrors a tad longer to see if that's really a M3 e46 csl behind you...
What he should have done is to hop back to his electric steering 1 series and tell us how that feels after a BMW with hydraulic steering. When something is good, it may not seem a big deal until you compare it with something worse back to back.
Did you say the 991.1 elec. steering was "pants"? I have never heard that before and have no idea what it means! Good or bad???
Pants is bad.
I have a late E90 320d Efficient Dynamics. The only E90 with electric power steering. I have no issues with how the car feels or steers. Having said that, it is the only BMW I have ever driven, so nothing to really compare it to.
Where's the Celica?
Progress not always better but not always worse. However, my mk V Golf GTI gave amazing feedback but my make 7 Golf R can feel remote. Yet there is 15 years of ‘progress’
@📍JayEmm 0n Cars ? Not sure that formatted correctly. You can drive the R estate if you’re ever down in Bristol. Although I really want to swap out the tyres for Eagle F1s to get the most out of the car.
Nah hydraulic for me however certain electric racks can be good such as the bmw 130i one very accurate
@📍JayEmm 0n Cars telegram? Jay is old fashioned but that's a bit extreme
That wasn't me
Not fair at all James. Apples with apples mate. Yes compare the hydraulic steering rack of a CSL M3 to a Porsche 911 GTRS. Compare the hydraulic steering rack of this model BMW to the electric steering rack in a Nissan Sentra. These two BMW 1 series steering systems...should...be kinda close.
But the point of the test is to ask if just being hydraulic automatically makes steering better. If I was comparing a Rolls Royce with a Lotus Elise, that'd be a terribly flawed test. As pointed out in the review, the truth is there is so much more to it than simply what kind of assistance the steering has
@@JayEmmOnCars The problem is BMWs have so many impediments to being the "Ultimate Driving Machine", be it dual-mass-flywheels which are lazy to respond or rubber steering column couplings even on M models! For a driver's car they seem to err on the side of isolation and ease-of-use. Your Lotus Evora would've been a better point of comparison. (BMW's latest quest to remove "unwanted steering kickback" and "reduce steering effort" seems unsurprising in this context! Ref: famous Car and Driver article.)
@@TassieLorenzo Oh, i read that article some time ago and was looking for that for quite a while. Do you have a link?
If I could like this video twice, I would
Then like it for me as it bored me stiff
👍🏼
You cannot just separate electric and hydraulic, as some electric are also hydraulic.
When it comes to electric there are two main varieties.
Electric columns and electric pumps.
For the purposes of this, electric pump = hydraulic
@@JayEmmOnCars Different types of pure electric as well. Rack assisted and column assisted. Rack assisted tends to be better in my limited experience.
👍
@📍JayEmm 0n Cars ???
Sorry, you've lost me there 🤔
Was giving the vid a 👍 with no hidden meaning.....
P5B still in garage. Will message you when available for filming.
I don't "do" FB/Twitter/Insta; just YT, email, text or public post.
Loving the content. Respect 👊👍
R56 has electric steering and I find it better than the r53
Jay 130i or 135i
No difference between lci and pre lci stereos all the same, uk 130i never got the full screen found in 2010 plus coupe’s, that’s technically lci lci
There is a difference between LCI and pre LCI in the stereo system. I owned both pre LCI and pre LCI.
@@YusufIslam1 do elaborate, I’ve had 7 1 series, 5 of which were 130i’s lci and more lci including an LE
“pants...”
All you've done here is demonstrate that a manufacturer can (obviously) fail to make a decent hydraulic or manual system. If you watch the Engineering Explained video about this you will see how an electrical system can never actually match a well designed and implemented hydraulic or manual system.
Your review is useful for potential 1 series buyers, but irrelevant to the wider electric v hydraulic discussion.
Yeah. Jason has a good explanation of why McLaren use hydraulic power steering. You'd think Jay Emm would remember this too from his own substantially similar Lotus Evora, also with hydraulic power steering. Perhaps driving Ferrari's with light Italian steering has gotten to JayEmm? :P
Electric is better I’m in no way biased .....🤣🤣
My E89 had electric steering, pretty lifeless and neutral, nothing to report
Can confirm, the only time you get info from it is on potholes. At least the car doesn't understeer on stock tyres so you don't really need to worry about losing the front.
@@maximravinet9950 I had mine on the Pilot Supersports, great traction but the car always felt like it needed to be bullied round tight, fast corners. It would turn but it felt like it wasn't comfortable doing so. Mind you it was a lot better than the car I replaced it with - a GTD mark VI. That was a disaster in the corners, lol
@@visionist7well, a vw will be a vw. Honestly, to have seen what my car could do this weekend (slaying a latest gen lotus élise's ass in the Ardennes), it doesn't feel like it had to be forced or that it was uncomfortable. I have the stock horrible runflats with the adjustable shocks (on comfort setting, not sport) and 19" wheels. It really took the abuse very well, I'm very happy with it even if the steering is far from ideal.
Ps: I wasn't driving the car, I'm a pretty new driver so even an untrained ape would have roasted me in the Elise, it's there for context not to brag
You're separating steering into two categories, when in fact there are three... pure hydraulic, belt driven pump, hydraulic rack... hybrid, electric pump, hydraulic rack, and pure electric.. servo motor on the rack....
The "hybrid" steering is really just hydraulic in just about every way that matters. The only difference is that it can switch the pump off when not in use (which actually could also be done, probably more easily and reliably, with a clutch).
yet to drive a good electric rack.
would you please stop going on about the 130 ,,, i want one and the prices just keep going up , and your not helping ...
messing aside a great video on a very interesting subject , especially if your 130 shopping.
I have sold it so that will be fairly easy
@@JayEmmOnCars we will just keep the 130 a secret between us then , at least till I get one bought.
Nothing like a bmw manual
Never driven a manual I liked less than every bmw. C6 and c7 Corvette, Camaro SS, Mustang g, Honda s2000 civic SI and type r, Toyota MR2, every Miata all have shifters that make the bmws seem terrible.