I understand why some people might not like the over the top, patriarchal world Bakker has created but for someone like me who was born and raised in Iran, a country ruled by religious men, this is something I can relate to and emphasize with many of the hardships that women in this world go through. Fantastic video as always Philip, keep up the great work.
Thanks! You are absolutely correct that Bakker has plenty of real world human-imposed suffering, both historical and current, to draw from, and that is one major reason why this sort of storytelling is important.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy totally agree. His books came under fire for sexism awhile back and that was a shame. A book can include historically influenced patriarchal themes as a way to show how awful they were, this book doesn’t glorify that. No one is rooting for the sexism in this book, this series is as much a horror book as it is fantasy at times, and that shows up in many ways. Including sexism. Imo.
Thank you so much for hosting this excellent discussion, Philip! I had a wonderful time and am very excited to discuss The Warrior Prophet early next month! Hope you're having a lovely week!
Thanks for having this one Philip, such a fantastic discussion, I'm so glad everyone can come together on such a difficult set of topics and all contribute so well.
It's good to have varying points of view, but I really felt Raf derailed the discussion a lot. He may be better off just reading historical fiction or straight up history instead of a fantasy that takes some inspiration from history
Thank you again for having me on this great discussion, I had a ton of fun! I'm looking forward to the next one and better start reading Warrior Prophet too.
This is so great. I'm so happy you guys are reviewing this. I really wish you'd commit to the entire Second Apocalypse and not just the first three :P The latter books make the first three so much more interesting. But beggars can't be choosers! I'm just excited you're reading what you are! Such a great convo!
Thanks, Jacob! At this point, it's more likely than not that I'll end up reading all of Second Apocalypse, though I might take a tiny break after the first trilogy. Let's see!
It’s a series with a lot of meat on its bones, and I anticipate it will be conducive to some great discussion and analysis. As I progress in the series, I’ll be able to watch the discussions on it that you’ve participated in!
Great discussion, I do disagree with a lot of Rafs points but it’s nice hearing other points of view about the series. This is one of my favorite series and I really hope u decide to read all the books it gets absolutely nuts later on. Thanks for the great discussion !
Thank you, to all four of you for this nuanced and thought provoking discussion on a book that certainly seems to have it's challenges on so many levels. An extra thank you to Raf for being angry! For me it infused a great discussion with a critical layer that enhanced this even more. Thank you, Philip for hosting this excellent exploration and making it available to the rest of us!
It's a challenging read, but I do feel like this discussion helped me to sort my feelings about it. That's the beauty of these chats, for sure. Cheers, Angela!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Indeed, it definitely helped a lot with finding a position toward this author's work for me as well and I have to say it's much more negative than any of yours. And yes, I'm aware that it's not based on first hand knowledge of the books. But if an author thinks it's a defense of misogynistic scences that he wants to shock his readers and show that men holding these views are shitheads, well, that's not really any news for female readers. We have established this long ago. And that demon scence does not give me the feeling that the author has any further awareness no matter what philosophical packageing he might have chosen. So, I don't think I'll pick this up in a hurry.
Great discussion people. It was fascinating watching Raf making so many interesting comments and assumptions knowing how the story develops and how wrong, and right, he will eventually be. Just a note. When Bakker says about the Darkness that Comes Before he is not talking about biology solely, but more about heritage, culture, upbringing, habits etc.
Definitely -- I think Bakker would enjoy reading Sapolsky's book Behave. While Sapolsky is a neuroscientist, he draws on other realms, such as sociology and psychology, to explore many of the larger determinants in our lives. Cheers!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I wish you could ask him. He is an avid reader of scientific and philosophical works but unfortunately he is pretty much in stealth mode the last 2-3 years. His blog, the Three Pound Brain has many interesting posts on such fields
@@Red21Viper I am certainly looking forward to be proven wrong by Bakker. While I fundamentally disagree with his position on free will I do think the series has a lot of potential and hope he does fulfill it.
@@RafBlutaxt your point of view highlights really interesting parts. Thats the spirit of discussing things. My biggest regret is that you probably will not reach the end to see how he really handles these themes. The first book only scratches the surface and by the end of the series many of the assumptions we made while reading the series are replaced or subverted.
@@Red21Viper I am certainly willing to read the whole thing, just nee to find a way to circumvent region lock on Aspect Emperor books 1 - 3 in audio but I'll cross that bridge when I get there.
Wow! That was such a thought provoking video that I have thoroughly enjoyed. Raf suggested some really intriguing ideas. Looking forward to the second book discussion. Great job as always Phillip.
Really great discussion. This book definitely left a mark on me. I thought because it was so bleak, but there's a lot of good and controversial ideas in there too, and it's good to see them talked about and debated, especially with folks I have a lot of respect for.
Great conversation. Watching this, I was definitely the least intelligent in the room, by far. Honestly, most of the philosophy discussion goes over my head, but what made reading Bakker a frustrating experience for me was Bakker took the philosophical concepts that would ordinarily be a subtext that I could ignore if I wished, but instead subverted that approach and made it explicit from the beginning. He showed us and told us what was going on, but in a way that was still opaque to me, challenging me to understand. Still, I really enjoyed the book and the entire series.
Johanna I'm so jealous of the edition you have!!!!!!!! I'm about to finish The White-Luck Warrior. I've been loving this series, it might take the throne of my all time favorite. Jimmy!!!! I had the same experience. For whatever reason I had collected PoN but waited over a year to start it, slightly afraid of it because of the things I had heard and a lot of the subject matters make my ego clench. Its so freaking good though, I'm glad I finally started it. After I got through the first chapter of the darkness it just took over and devoured me. I just love it when I find something that resonates with me so much that I'm driven to read it without friction.
Thank you, but it's actually my local library's edition, and I've used every renewal possible. Looks like I'm going to have to collect my own editions. The Warrior Prophet is already making me want to revisit parts in book 1!
The edition that Johanna was reading does look cool! It sounds like this series really speaks to something in you, and that is something I find it does for me so far too. I'm looking forward to the full context of the series.
Oh I see, well either way I need that copy in my life. Thanks for the responses by the way. Also I watched your ranking video Phillip on top 10's and I have to let you know, Malazan is my favorite too and I've read the whole series 3 times plus a deep dive to find everything I could related to the Talon. Absolutely love it. Having said that, 2nd apoc is a contender for #1 in my eyes. Hope you enjoy the rest of it and have a lovely day!!!!
Really interesting discussion, I’m really interested in y’all’s take on women especially by the end of the trilogy. Aspect emperor without spoiling anything does a lot of interesting things There is something about the way Bakker writes that makes this bleak world so damn compelling that you can’t put it down.
darn time zones making me miss this live! I've only read the first book but I've been looking forward to discussions of this book immediately since finishing it.
Wow! I read these books when they first came out, ages ago, and have sought an intelligent discussion of them, not just a rehash of the plot. I've felt very much alone for the last 15 years since it seems they are only now beginning to be read for the first time. Kudos for a deeper, darker philosophical dive.
I’m glad you enjoyed the discussion! We tackled book two, The Warrior Prophet, on Johanna’s channel as well, and soon we will be on Raf’s channel talking about book three, The Thousandfold Thought.
Reading these books is great in and of itself, but having these discussions at the end of each books makes them even better! I haven't finished watching the video, but I have to point out how amazing Bakker's prose is. Rare is the book where I can just sit and enjoy the imagery painted by the author because it's just so interesting and beautiful to read. English being my second language, I don't always explicitly get when prose is very good compared to German books (Steven Erikson and Tad Williams are authors that read very well, but don't make me notice the prose itself that much), but Bakker's writing is a joy to me. I don't know how to call it - lyrical, purple prose-ish? Whatever it is, I want more of it! Coming from a German-speaking background, it was also interesting to hear how you pronounced the names, as the use of umlauts made me read them very differently! Although Bakker being American makes me think that you had the right pronunciation.
I agree with you about Bakker’s prose - he’s a fantastic writer on the sentence level, which is not all that common these days. He’s actually Canadian, but my copy of the book has a pronunciation guide in the back, and I definitely needed it. I’m pretty terrible at pronouncing vowels with the umlaut in German, but I still love the language. Cheers!
I'll probably never read this series, but watched this to see what kind of philosophy is discussed. Predestination, to me, is a very jaded approach and something I don't believe in and feel like it's an excuse or a crutch for some people. The subconscious is definitely controlling things that you may not have full control over consciously, but we all have the ability to make our own decisions and how we react to internal or external forces. Probably my views are influenced by Buddhism which I like to study and implement in my life, but it was still my choice to purposefully study Buddhism which leads to that worldview. But who knows, maybe it's all a simulation to make it look like we have free choice, but I'm glad I've convinced myself there is no predestination at the very least! Ha
@@thefantasynuttwork Definitely not saying it's a crutch for everyone, but I've heard many people in my life argue for it in a religious and philosophical way. Religion being that they have no control over their lives, it's in God's hands. Philosophy being that nothing really matters so why care. Both are crutches. Your reasoning from what I heard in the video is great Jimmy because you may believe nothing matters or lack of will but yet you still try to experience it all as if it does. No crutches for you! Ha
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Raphael is a bit on the spectrum. I can tell he has a pretty sharp intellect but seems to struggle with certain aspects of storytelling that I enjoy immensely. Such as mystery, intrigue, imagination, personality and, well, fun. I don't always require every little detail be explained up front in order to enjoy a good story. But I guess we all have our own different reasons for being drawn to fantasy. Going off this discussion I'd probably put myself more on Jimmy's side of things. Good discussion, though would have liked to hear more from Jimmy and Johanna instead of Raphael just rambling on and on about how smart he is.
I'm glad you enjoyed the discussion overall, Andrew! Jimmy may not have said as much, but I thought he did a great job of representing fans of the series. There's a lot to admire in Bakker's writing, and I'm curious to see where I finally land after finishing the series.
I didnt agree with a majority of Raphs points, but I guess I appreciated his POV. He lost me when he mentioned how Bakker trying to make a humorous situation out of the bird poop was problematic. I just don’t understand how someone could be upset with that! It felt like he was reaching pretty hard. But again, I appreciated his PoV. Just finished the first book and decided to reread through it again as I feel I missed a lot. I appreciate this discussion! Love you all! Wish I heard more from Jimmy! When he did speak, I agreed more with the things he had to say.
You nailed why I didn't keep going with this series after The Warrior Prophet; lack of hope. I read Fantasy to see glimmers of hope in live. To see simple people doing heroic things in a self-sacrificing way, because that is how I want to believe I would act in that situation. I loved the worldbuilding and the philosophical themes, but ultimately the lack of "hope" feels purposeless. I guess it gets down to why we each read.
Thank you all for this discussion. I just finished this first book in the series and in my opinion it's the best fantasy book I have read in many years and is up there with my very favorites. I mean it's not entirely without flaws, but it's strengths so vastly outweigh them. There is an obvious comparison to GRRM a song of ice and fire, in a good way since this is definitely it's own thing - but I think Bakker's prose is more poetic, beautiful and profound even though so much still seems left to be unveiled in the further books. Don't get me wrong, I consider GRRM a good writer and love ASOIAF, but the written-word-as-art-form is more beautifully rendered by Bakker IMO. I enjoyed all four of your perspectives but like Jimmy I don't need there to be any hope, I can go re-read Tolkien for that hahahaha.
I’m glad you enjoyed the discussion! I too have great respect for GRRM’s writing but agree that Bakker’s books have more layers. My guess is that ASOIAF has much broader appeal, but Bakker goes much deeper with the themes. Cheers!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy well said, I have already started book two and look forward to your review and chat on that as well. I'm enjoying your channel in general too. Thanks again and and Cheersalot back!
I'm a little late in watching this. I loved every minute of it. And as a fan boy of Bakker, I really appreciate having Raf's more critical POV, gives me things to think about. Regarding True Believers in the story - one POV of a true believer (but not a Inrithi true believer) we get is Kellhus. He believes in the Dunyain mission fully. Hope you continue these discussions as you read the rest of the series
Thanks, Jason! I think Raf added a ton to the discussion. Just as I’m glad Bakker challenges me, it was great to have Raf raising points I hadn’t thought about. Great point about Kellhus too. I’m excited to pick up book two soon!
(Spoilers) The way Khellus comes into the story is absolutely terrifying. I remember thinking i wanted him to come back and do his thing to everyone after the prologue. After i started to 'care' for the other characters and he showed up I felt absolute dread and how he was going to do his 'thing'. The way he still manipulated cnaiur and everyone around him was actually terrifying in a weird way.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I listened to the non-spoiler section of the discussion, and it's definitely piqued my interest. I don't have much philosophy background, which was part of my initial hesitation in picking up the series. But based on you all's general thoughts, it seems like an incredibly thematically rich series, regardless of academic background. Thanks for posting this discussion!
In response to the postulating around the 24:00 minute mark about what it means for a man to understand what he is doing. (Spoilers.) One realization about the series that blew me out of the water is that; No. Kellus is not a man able to operate out of his own "self movement", and even he is inslaved to the darkness that comes before. Being aware of your own darkness does not render you unmoved by it, or an independent soul as Kellus thinks he is. later, in the 2nd of series of books, we are introduced to the character who (in my opinion) is truly a self-moving soul, in the vein of what Kellus desired to be. However, in meeting this character, we see that living without the darkness that comes before renders one, effectively, insane. It makes you a creature of impulse, not an unmoving or masterful sage pure understanding. It means you are instead enslaved to biological processes, and physical stimulation, because dispute what the Dunyane tried with their selective breeding, a man still has biological need. I will never be unimpressed by the idea that despite everything the Dunyane tried to accomplish, Kellus is still a slave to unconscious motives and impulses as anybody else is, only he has super powers and a rockin' Jesus bod.
It's been a few years since I've read the series but I remember having to wait for both Great Ordeal and Unholy Consult to be released to read them. I can confidently say I was not ready for this series. My breadth and depth in the genre was limited and my mainstays were things like Wheel of Time, LotR, Harry Potter (even as a 20-something), and similar. I had barely gotten into A Song of Ice and Fire and I jumped straight into these books. It was honestly hard to read, never having really read something so unforgiving and brutal and hopeless, even in a post-apocalyptic world it was a massive shock. In any case, after the initial trilogy, and hopefully the 2nd quartet, I'd love to get any/all of the panel's thoughts on how Bakker's work compares to something like Malazan Book of the Fallen (I'm currently reading Bonehunters) or Black Company (haven't read). My understanding is that Bakker doesn't necessarily give the reader any sense of the light at the end of the tunnel, it's just continually dark and devoid of hope. Malazan, on the contrary for me, feels different. I'm not as analytical in my reading but something about what Philip and people like A.P. have stated about hope and empathy in Malazan must bleed through to me on some level to get a different "feeling" coming from the story. Sorry for the lengthy message, but In reality appreciated this conversation and can't wait for Book 2 discussion!
Thanks, Adam! My sense so far is that Bakker’s series lacks the hope, humor, and exploration of compassion that Malazan features. But, I do need to read at least the first trilogy before making up my mind. There’s a ton of talent in the writing too, so I’ll stay the course.
I can't help but feel, that every time Raphael talked about how Bakker would use minimal description and then allow the reader to use their pre-existing knowledge/understanding/insert whatever, and then use their imagination to fill in the rest, that someone needed to point out, "... I know you're taking issue with Bakker's writing here, but, you're just describing what good writing looks like..." Loving it, looking forward to the next two.
I’ve read this series a couple of times. I love it! I’ve cast these characters in my mind. I would love to see a movie but, we know they won’t stick to source material!
Watching Raf drink that beer makes me thirsty, am guessing Phillip has whiskey in that mug. Oh yeah, and love the darkness discussion. One of my favorite books.
Than you for this scintillating conversation! I'm totally caught up in Bakker's books but there aren't so many people whom I may discuss it with or listen to interesting thoughts. This book was my first attempt to read a fantasy novel in foreign language (English is not my native tongue) and I found it challenging but in a positive way. By the way, could you share with me this discussion between Bakker and blogger about misogyny which Jimmy mentioned? I'd be interested to look into this
I’m glad you enjoyed the discussion! I’m not sure where Jimmy heard about or read about that exchange, but I’ll ask him the next time I see him. All the best!
Friend of mine who had read the series, said: “Imagine “The Silmarillion” or Michael Moorcock’s “Corum” got smashed into the Crusades, then got pummeled by “Dune” and “Event Horizon”/“Hellraizer”!” The Yimaleti Mountain Range is clearly modeled on the shape of Norway and the human name for the Nonmen, "Oserukki" ("Not Us"), seems to my Norwegian Eyes and Ears eerily similar to almost an anagram of "er ikke oss" (standard bokmål Norwegian: "Are not us"). "Er'u" is also a common contraction in some Dialects/Sosiolects of East Oslo for "er du" ("are you"), so it also sound as "Oss er'u ikke!" (Us, you are not!). "INRI" was indeed a bit on the nose Jesus-reference, but the second name, Sejanus, must be referencing Sejanus who was the Commander of the Pretorian Guard under Emperor Tiberius and essentially remembered as the posterboy of a favorite who both was a manipulating puppeteer and did the dirty work of Tiberius, only to finally get his comeuppance and executed. Ben Jonson wrote a play about him, and the most famous portrayal of him in "recent" times, is definitly Sir Patrick Stewart in the 1976 BBC adaptation of "I, Claudius" (sidenote: GRRM famously based his Stannis Baratheon on that adaptation's Tiberius, played by George Baker). SInce Sejanus is credited to be responsible for the appointment of Pontius Pilate as Roman Governor of Judea, who judged Jesus to the Cross, I suspect that is intentional, with his thoughts on determinism, manipulation and violence. As someone who wrote their History Bachelor essentially to refute one of my History101 lecturer's take that "Emperor Constantine invented Christianity", I do have some sympathy with Raf on the Cynical Take on Religion by Bakker, but again, this I feel have heavy influence of Frank Herbert's "Dune"(which is interesting, since "Dune" is often referred to as Genre-defining in its portrayal of women with agency and strength).
Excellent observations, MacScarfield! It’s spelled Sejenus, I think, but that doesn’t invalidate your point. Interesting that it contains all the letters needed for “Jesus” with a couple extra.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Can recommend this video by "Kraut" as an example of why I have some sympathy with Raf's "indignation" over how the "Grimdark Cynical" view has become the "Realistic Middle Ages" used in say "A Song of Ice and Fire" etc : czcams.com/video/H03H73tdh6s/video.html
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Can also recommend this video by "Kings and Generals" as agreat summary of how the "Grimdark" View of the Middle Ages has its origin in Renaissance Humanists, Protestants and Enlightenment Writers View of the (Early/Whole) Middle Ages as "Backwards", while "Classic Fantasy" has an origin in the glorification and romanticizing of the Middle Ages by Counter-Reformation Catholics and later Victorian Romantics (with Tolkien as a clear example) : czcams.com/video/9kHvlapsJjw/video.html
On the subject of whether or not Bakker was clear on being anti-misogyny, I think he was clear enough. The prologue establishes the Human Quandary, that everyone is defined by The Darkness. And I love that we start with Kellhus' perspective arming us with the universe knowledge that there are levers that control humanity unseen even by their own thoughts. That essentially, any perspective we enter into moving forward, we shouldnt even take their most intimate and inward thoughts at "face value". Also there are 3 instances i recall of boys being sexualized and SA'd within the story, my criticism of the criticism is that everyone seems to overlook that. We have already been trained after the prologue in psychoanalytically deconstructing these character archetypes along with the author. While he obviously isnt a feminist, Bakker is clearly a No-Misogynst. One thing I noted about the Scylvendi worship of war in and of itself (equated with intellect) is that the swazond indicate specifically a foes "absence". I think in terms of the author defining and trying to understand evil, hes trying to establish that there is an evil and finding some rationally sound method to defy it, but not to necessarily define any good in the world. Instead of venerating goodness and virtue, I find the overall meta-narrative more about negating evil. I find in dark/modern fantasy the moral grey motif comes up all the time, that somehow tolkein was all about black/white morality. But within Tolkein it was not Black/White, there was no Black, for Tolkein Evil had no ontological status and is merely an absence of Good in a place it could potentially return. I myself find morally grey fiction drunkenly returning to this true point of Tolkein, that Good is not relative, but it is in fact Evil that is relative. That people only claim good is relative to justify an evil they are about to do. But if we find that these characters in Bakkers world are wicked internally, but do end up saving the world, then we can say that they remain instruments of good, just like Smeagol was. The same way wicked men wield the holy war in this world, Illuvitar wielded the wicked men of Middle Earth
@@followingtheroe1952 I’m glad! There are discussions on my friends’ channels on the subsequent two books. I’ll be reading Aspect Emperor in 2024. Cheers!
I read the first 3 books in this series, earlier this year. Whilst I really liked the 4 main characters (especially Kellhus), and 2 or 3 scenes in each of the books, I felt very lukewarm on the series. Hopefully this discussion will ignite my need to read the next 4 books in the series.
Firstly, discussion. \o/ Secondly, I see where mr Bakker came from with this book but it just is too... it's hard to sum up or explain, it's many things that combine for me where it kind of overshoots the philosophical aspect, for me there is like a layer of gloom (sterility? not sure which words!) such that it almost feels like a onesided exploration, without necessarily only having such topics. It should be for me because I definitely like both historical, psychological and 'realistic' fantasy. However it was a while since I read them and I did finish, but I was considering not doing that by the last book - it's not that I think the writing is bad, it just wasn't for me. Also, I have a personal problem with the series that I feel like is better to talk about later when all the books are read.
I’m glad you enjoyed the discussion, Violet! I can see this is a series I’ll be reading to feel challenged. I hope to hear more about your take in the future!
Imperial incest is icky. I'm hoping 2nd Apocalypse gets more readers from this exposure because it really is a work of Quality. Going to have to reread these myself.
I see your book, and raise you three! The Atlantis Gene Winter World (both of these are by A.G. Riddle, and free if you have Amazons Kindle subscription). And the final title is "New Eden", by Kishore Tipirneni. Again, free with an Amazon Kindle subscription. Now, all three of those are the first book in their series. As far as I know, all three are trilogies. The first one is just a question about the origin of mankind. Winter World, is more about first contact and needing to leave planet earth...maybe forever. And New Eden is essentially a better written version of both of those ideas, but in the form of us leaving earth WITH some assistance. Again, all three of those are the start of a different trilogy. I have read all of them and their respective series.
It has been about ten years since I read these books, so my memory is rather fuzzy, but I did like the first book a lot and the next two were still good, but after that the tendency for all characters to be completely broken and/or sociopaths got so prevalent that it got on my nerves so hard that I quit the series somewhere in the beginning of The Judging Eye...
Yeah, having all the characters be broken or sociopathic could be an issue for me too, but I’m hoping to find enough to admire to keep me going. Cheers!
I would say the way Bakker writes in Darkness comes from who inspired him: Frank Herbert and Dune. Even when Herbert is making up things outside of the Lawerence of Arabia framework of Paul's journey, he will barely describe anything and spend most of the narrative on people's interior monologues.
hello dr chase.. i have a malazan question for you if thats ok. malazan spoilers follow... i am very excited to start my malazan journey hopefully soon . but throgh my own fault i was spoiled about karsa and i have heard that he commits atrocities and then gets a redemption arc .i personally think some things are unforgivable. so my question is is it ok in the fandom to not redeme a a character yourself even if the author wants you to do so?
The answer to your question is undoubtedly yes. Also, I’m 100% sure that Steven Erikson does not actually insist that Karsa is redeemed. In fact, he wants the reader to think about redemption, and he does not offer a definitive yes or no. Having spoken with Steven Erikson about Karsa, I’m fairly comfortable in making these assertions. Best wishes for your read!
Does Bakker agree with the philosophies he's put forward in these books. As an fiction author, the freedom to explore ideas outside of the context of reality is THE benefit; to wind them up and then to set them at play amongst a universe that is not ours but might give us some insight into our own conditions. One does not need to agree with an idea to entertain it nor to play around and interrogate it.
I am by no means expert on philosophy, so my understanding might be flawed. From what I get out of Sartre is that the brutality of those people's world makes the burden and weight of choice and freedom almost infinite. Embracing a deterministic view of that world and the total obliviousness to a scarier "option" makes life less brutal for them. So the book might be about the solace of blocking out the idea of freedom to cope with the immense brutality.
This book is effing masterpiece and I only just gotten into fantasy! Wheel of time first book in comparison is pile of boring shit in every aspect! Can't wait to start with book 2!
I read this book a long, long time ago, and basically all I remember of it was that it was completely fucking miserable. I'm not sure that it would appeal to myself nowadays, but I at least appreciate your discussion of it.
"Raph at about 1:10 seems to suggest that dystopian themes or worlds without perfect justice shouldn't be created in fiction. I find that extremely problematic.
Of course, we very much need dystopian themes and worlds without perfect justice in fiction, not least because of the world we actually live in. I can’t speak for Raf, but I suspect he would agree.
I was looking forward for this discussion and really enjoyed it. 👍 But I need to say one thing: I agree with nearly everything Raf said and I totally get his points, but I don't think these points are valid critique to the world building. The builder of fictional worlds can choose the conditions he wants if they are not self-contradictory and as a reader you choose to enter or not, but I see no reason or possibility to argue about it. For example I believe in free will, but I find it very interesting to explore a fictional world that denies it. If it shows how f... up a world like these would look like, it could even be an argument for my own worldview. But concerning the mysogyny I agree. Maybe Bakker has gone a bit too far. This might not have been necessary to make his point. (Sorry for my probably bad grammar! 😥)
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Thank you for your kind words! I always find great value in your content. It especially helped me to give Steven Erikson another try. And I share your admiration for Robin Hobb. I hope one day you will do a re-read and video about Susanna Clarke's first book. 🤩 And do I remember correctly that you mentioned that you are going to read Gene Wolfe in the near future? He is also one of my favorites and I think The Wizard Knight is truly among "the best of fantasy" (many people might disagree and I admit it is a challenging read, but I think it is worth it).
So much to cover... I hadn't noticed the lack of description. The story is so character driven. There are examples of faith but only by action, the pov's are the ruling class who are mostly cynical. It is an interesting question if Kellhus believes he has freewill. I would say somewhat but the goal of the Dunyain appears to be how to break the chain of causality. But predestination vs. freewill doesn't really fit. Rather the war between intellect and emotion. Kellhus takes full advantage of the emotions that he has eliminated, it they were ever there in the first place. He is essentially a Bene Gesserit in everything but name...and gender I suppose. But Bakkers writing is just so immersive. Which makes multiple scenes that much more disturbing. But he wants you to be disturbed, but I really wish he wouldn't be so effective. One topic that Raf touched on is that Bakker never, as far as I can tell, comes out as anti religious. Rather he ramps up the dangers of a charismatic leader and how easily faith can be manipulated. If you cande convinced to believe anything even contrary to your own belief or logic, you can be convinced to do anything. But glad to hear you are continuing as now you can see what all the fuss has been about. I will echo Johanna's sentiments that I am very glad I read them but processing the experience is difficult and ongoing.
Well said, Eric, especially in regard to the immersiveness of Bakker’s writing. The fact that it’s so effective in that regard is no doubt part of the reason behind the difficulty of some scenes.
Please do some #NoGodChat next time because what a cool version of a Dark Lord: a metal sarcophagus in the center of a whirlwind, so opposite to life that every child is stillborn while he exists.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy a little more like a bookmark, but yeah, i think i did pause it specifically there because of how, er.. spicy? the convo was getting?
An important point, though I think we didn’t get much into the perspective of anyone involved in the Vulgar Holy War. Their doings and fate are mostly reported. Cheers, Will!
The funny thing is that word “ramble” is one he uses to describe his videos all the time, but I think he comes up with some powerful points in those rambles. All the best!
Interesting point Raf brought up about religious zealotry and the fact that few characters actually embody it. On the one hand it could be a very cynical view of the human nature. A small number of people genuinely hold a belief to be intrinsic to their self, that self same belief is held as lip service by the masses out of fear of being branded "the other". Those in power use that belief sparked by the true believers as the catalyst for an undertaking that will ultimately serve their bottom line. The Emperor is the prime example in the book and is the most explicit example, and frankly we've seen this in modern times with the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan. On the other hand, I would say that the Mandate schoolmen are true zealots. Sure, they get a horrific dream every night that helps solidify their belief but the nature of magic in Bakkers world is obscure enough that one could interpret this as a side effect of Gnosis. They truly believe, to their core, that they hold the keys to stop the second apocalypse, and we see in Achamian the inner wrestlings of a believer when confronted with an equal and opposite pull to their faith
Excellent points here! I agree about the exploitation of beliefs versus genuine faith. And that’s a valid perspective on the Mandate Schoolmen, whom everyone else thinks of as crazy and deluded. Cheers!
Understanding that this is loosely based on the crusades and early 11th century Europe/Middle eastern time period, were there a lot of options for women that would have thrust them into the spotlight/position of power? Bakker doesn’t offer many POV from farmers or cobblers. It’s a bleak world for all except the ultra rich and that’s just in a materialistic way, they mostly seem morally bankrupt and miserable creatures. While I don’t envy the life of a sex worker, is surviving a 1,000 mile march through the desert starving and dying of thirst just to be hacked to pieces or burnt alive much better? Also, Esme is one of the more “good” characters in the book. Not to mention, she might be one of the strongest people in the entire series.
Its ironic, this discusion opens with a Nietzsche quote about the pitfalls of certainty. Throughout the discussion we have 3 panelists who frame their perspectives with an open and inquisitive dialoge, they seek to be enlighted through the discussion. On the other hand, their is Raf, who makes assertions in a more absolute and assertive manner, while reveling in being contrarian. Raf's inability or unwillingness to suspend disbelief makes this discussion almost unbearable. He picks at the low hanging fruit and stymiese the discussion more often than he adds anything meaningful to it.
One thing that seems important to me about Bakker’s writing, which is exquisite even as it feels so bleak, is that he is trying to explore and perhaps even warn about the consequences of certainty. That’s something I deeply appreciate. Thank you for watching and for the feedback!
This dude Raf is a total goober stroking his mustache and trolling Bakkers writing. Every point that Philip, Joanna, or Nut God make are immediately shot down by the mead drinking troll. Really wish you guys were able to do the streams without him as, in my opinion, he contributes little with his criticisms. Seems like he’s just constantly reaching to not only disagree but to bash Bakkers writing.
I love that you used one of my favorite words, “goober,” in your comment, Conor. Also, “Nut God” makes me smile every time. 😁 To your point, Raf does tend to offer the counter view much of the time. It can be frustrating - I hear you - but I also find value in that. If someone like Raf makes me think about my position on a book, or anything else - then I’ll be better able to defend my position later on. I think even Raf would say there’s a lot to admire in Bakker’s writing too, but he likes to take things apart. Anyway, thanks for watching!
I got like 30 minutes into this and had to stop listening. With beard guy trying too hard to prove his philosophical superiority to Bakker (who’s a professor I’m pretty sure) and going off about no religious zealots in the book, and not knowing main character names, it seems like he didn’t read it. I think I’m too much of a Bakker zealous to tolerate this. If someone can tell me the next hour is beard guy letting others speak about the book I might listen to the rest of it. Kick him out for the other talks and I will buy you an ice cream.
I'm afraid I did not like this series (DNF'd halfway through Book 2) or the representation of...well any characters but definitely the female characters! Also I found it quite boring sadly. Will still be tuning in for the panel discussions of the later books (I don't mind spoilers). 🙂
I love Raf with his counterpoints and unique takes, but he got tiresome throughout this discussion. Yes, Bakker relies on our predetermined ideas of what certain historical civilisations look like, but to immediately equate this to western propaganda of the Byzantine empire is a bit much. I would say the vast majority of readers would equate the Empire to the imperial Roman Empire, for example, with their superstitions, their augeries, their pomp and ceremony.
The truth is that the vast majority (I hesitate to write “all”) of fantasy writers rely on aspects of our world and human history and cultures to create their worlds. This creates a sense of recognition in the reader that is very useful and can be used creatively, as I think Bakker does.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I had that thought also while listening to your fantastic discussion. I would throw out the idea that it'd be almost impossible to examine and create cultures in a fantasy setting without basing them somewhat on real world historical examples. I'm sure it could be done, but the effort it would take for a ,likely, shallow, paper thin version of something that should be rich and immersive simply wouldn't be worth it. I'm only half way through the warrior prophet, but I think a key part of Bakkers writing is that rapid oscillation between "the grand events" at a deliberately high level and the intimate interpersonal details of the main movers in these events. Which is very interesting, since in most of the fantasy I've read there isn't that reflective disconnect. To reiterate, I've got absolutely nothing against Raf. He's a very thoughtful and insightful person that brings a lot to discussion. I feel that for Prince of Nothing, the series happened to touch on something he's particularly knowledgeable about, hence causing him to see flaws in that area and this hyper scrutiny is carried over to everything in the novel (if that makes sense) For me, I know more than most about historical swords and somewhat about how they were used. Some of Sanderson's early works in Stormlight drove me insane haha.
@@koleary1798 Ha ha! Yes, we do tend to be sensitive about our realms of expertise. I’m sure any decent sailor would recognize me as a landlubber from my descriptions of sailing in my writing, and, being a medievalist, I often wince at many fantasy writers’ attempts at archaic English in their dialogue or exposition. I agree with you about some grounding in the world around us being helpful, perhaps even necessary, for fantasy. Cheers!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy thanks for taking the time to chat Philip! I'm fervently waiting for March to get my hands on The Way of Edan! Not sure when in the month it'll be out but I've kept all of March flexible so I can read it ASAP.
@@koleary1798 It’s my pleasure! Thank you so much for your interest in The Way of Edan! The planned release date is March 21, and things are looking good for meeting that goal. All the best!
I understand why some people might not like the over the top, patriarchal world Bakker has created but for someone like me who was born and raised in Iran, a country ruled by religious men, this is something I can relate to and emphasize with many of the hardships that women in this world go through. Fantastic video as always Philip, keep up the great work.
Thanks! You are absolutely correct that Bakker has plenty of real world human-imposed suffering, both historical and current, to draw from, and that is one major reason why this sort of storytelling is important.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy totally agree. His books came under fire for sexism awhile back and that was a shame. A book can include historically influenced patriarchal themes as a way to show how awful they were, this book doesn’t glorify that. No one is rooting for the sexism in this book, this series is as much a horror book as it is fantasy at times, and that shows up in many ways. Including sexism. Imo.
Thanks for having me Philip!
It's always a pleasure to chat with you, my friend!
Jimmy your are the MVP for getting these to join the slog of slogs… Do they know there’s no weeping on the slog?
I’m sorry Phillip but after finishing the video I realised you 3 would never reach the coffers 🤣
Thank you so much for hosting this excellent discussion, Philip! I had a wonderful time and am very excited to discuss The Warrior Prophet early next month! Hope you're having a lovely week!
It was wonderful to get your perspective on The Darkness That Comes Before, Johanna, and I'm excited to hear what you make of book 2!
Lol i love how bakkers work effects people.
A real testament to how great his books are.
True!
Thanks for having this one Philip, such a fantastic discussion, I'm so glad everyone can come together on such a difficult set of topics and all contribute so well.
It was, I think, a great conversation with valuable contributions from all. Cheers, Zan!
Great video! I recently just finished this book and watching this was a nice wrap up, I really enjoyed nuanced perspectives! Thank you Dr. Chase!
Thank you for watching!
It's good to have varying points of view, but I really felt Raf derailed the discussion a lot. He may be better off just reading historical fiction or straight up history instead of a fantasy that takes some inspiration from history
Raf definitely gave me some points to think about, even if I don’t entirely agree with all of them.
Thank you again for having me on this great discussion, I had a ton of fun! I'm looking forward to the next one and better start reading Warrior Prophet too.
It was a ton of fun, Raf! Thank you for contributing such great insights and for having the courage to speak your mind!
This is so great. I'm so happy you guys are reviewing this. I really wish you'd commit to the entire Second Apocalypse and not just the first three :P The latter books make the first three so much more interesting. But beggars can't be choosers! I'm just excited you're reading what you are! Such a great convo!
Thanks, Jacob! At this point, it's more likely than not that I'll end up reading all of Second Apocalypse, though I might take a tiny break after the first trilogy. Let's see!
more Bakker content! praise be! excellent discussion from everyone
Thanks, Will! We’re happy to oblige!
Great discussion, love to see this series getting more attention!
It’s a series with a lot of meat on its bones, and I anticipate it will be conducive to some great discussion and analysis. As I progress in the series, I’ll be able to watch the discussions on it that you’ve participated in!
Finished the book last night and I have to say that it's one of the most brilliant books I've read in a long time. Very dense but beautifully written.
I’m glad it impressed you, Dan, and I predict you’ll feel similarly, if not more impressed, about book two!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Excited to start book two tonight and watch your videos on it soon!
Yes thanks Dr. Chase, Raf, Jimbo & Jo, I've been looking forward to this!
Happy to oblige, Mathias!
Great discussion, I do disagree with a lot of Rafs points but it’s nice hearing other points of view about the series. This is one of my favorite series and I really hope u decide to read all the books it gets absolutely nuts later on. Thanks for the great discussion !
Thanks, Daniel! I think it’s a matter of when, not if, I finish the entire series. There’s too much talent in the writing for me to walk away.
Thank you, to all four of you for this nuanced and thought provoking discussion on a book that certainly seems to have it's challenges on so many levels. An extra thank you to Raf for being angry! For me it infused a great discussion with a critical layer that enhanced this even more.
Thank you, Philip for hosting this excellent exploration and making it available to the rest of us!
It's a challenging read, but I do feel like this discussion helped me to sort my feelings about it. That's the beauty of these chats, for sure. Cheers, Angela!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Indeed, it definitely helped a lot with finding a position toward this author's work for me as well and I have to say it's much more negative than any of yours. And yes, I'm aware that it's not based on first hand knowledge of the books. But if an author thinks it's a defense of misogynistic scences that he wants to shock his readers and show that men holding these views are shitheads, well, that's not really any news for female readers. We have established this long ago. And that demon scence does not give me the feeling that the author has any further awareness no matter what philosophical packageing he might have chosen. So, I don't think I'll pick this up in a hurry.
@@DoUnicornsRead Fair enough! I’m sure you’re right that there’s no breaking news here for female readers, and that scene is indeed disturbing.
I've been looking forward to this conversation for a long time and I think you all had a wonderful discussion!
Thanks, Jeroen! I felt like it was one of the most engaging BookTube chats I’ve been in, but I never know how others will experience it.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy It definitely was that.
Fantastic panel and discussion! Really looking forward to the next one.
Thanks so much, Paromita!
I loved this discussion and the different points of views. Great panel
Thank you, Darren!
Great discussion people. It was fascinating watching Raf making so many interesting comments and assumptions knowing how the story develops and how wrong, and right, he will eventually be. Just a note. When Bakker says about the Darkness that Comes Before he is not talking about biology solely, but more about heritage, culture, upbringing, habits etc.
Definitely -- I think Bakker would enjoy reading Sapolsky's book Behave. While Sapolsky is a neuroscientist, he draws on other realms, such as sociology and psychology, to explore many of the larger determinants in our lives. Cheers!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I wish you could ask him. He is an avid reader of scientific and philosophical works but unfortunately he is pretty much in stealth mode the last 2-3 years. His blog, the Three Pound Brain has many interesting posts on such fields
@@Red21Viper I am certainly looking forward to be proven wrong by Bakker. While I fundamentally disagree with his position on free will I do think the series has a lot of potential and hope he does fulfill it.
@@RafBlutaxt your point of view highlights really interesting parts. Thats the spirit of discussing things. My biggest regret is that you probably will not reach the end to see how he really handles these themes. The first book only scratches the surface and by the end of the series many of the assumptions we made while reading the series are replaced or subverted.
@@Red21Viper I am certainly willing to read the whole thing, just nee to find a way to circumvent region lock on Aspect Emperor books 1 - 3 in audio but I'll cross that bridge when I get there.
Wow! That was such a thought provoking video that I have thoroughly enjoyed. Raf suggested some really intriguing ideas. Looking forward to the second book discussion.
Great job as always Phillip.
I’m happy that you enjoyed the chat, Avi! Thanks!
Really great discussion. This book definitely left a mark on me. I thought because it was so bleak, but there's a lot of good and controversial ideas in there too, and it's good to see them talked about and debated, especially with folks I have a lot of respect for.
Thanks, Oso! I thought it was a great chat, and I’m glad it was useful for you. It’s a book that sparks ideas and debate.
Great conversation. Watching this, I was definitely the least intelligent in the room, by far. Honestly, most of the philosophy discussion goes over my head, but what made reading Bakker a frustrating experience for me was Bakker took the philosophical concepts that would ordinarily be a subtext that I could ignore if I wished, but instead subverted that approach and made it explicit from the beginning. He showed us and told us what was going on, but in a way that was still opaque to me, challenging me to understand. Still, I really enjoyed the book and the entire series.
I'm still amazed at how engaging I found Bakker's philosophical explorations -- that's true talent! I'm glad you enjoyed the chat, John!
I truly enjoyed this discussion. I also didn't regret reading it. 😊
That’s excellent on both scores, Chadia! 😁
On the sentence level Bekkers prose is fantastic. Like Victorian writings, lyrical and poetic. Maybe an episode on best prosesmiths?
I agree about Bakker’s prose. That’s an excellent idea for a video about the paragons of prose!
Johanna I'm so jealous of the edition you have!!!!!!!! I'm about to finish The White-Luck Warrior. I've been loving this series, it might take the throne of my all time favorite. Jimmy!!!! I had the same experience. For whatever reason I had collected PoN but waited over a year to start it, slightly afraid of it because of the things I had heard and a lot of the subject matters make my ego clench. Its so freaking good though, I'm glad I finally started it. After I got through the first chapter of the darkness it just took over and devoured me. I just love it when I find something that resonates with me so much that I'm driven to read it without friction.
Thank you, but it's actually my local library's edition, and I've used every renewal possible. Looks like I'm going to have to collect my own editions. The Warrior Prophet is already making me want to revisit parts in book 1!
The edition that Johanna was reading does look cool! It sounds like this series really speaks to something in you, and that is something I find it does for me so far too. I'm looking forward to the full context of the series.
Oh I see, well either way I need that copy in my life. Thanks for the responses by the way. Also I watched your ranking video Phillip on top 10's and I have to let you know, Malazan is my favorite too and I've read the whole series 3 times plus a deep dive to find everything I could related to the Talon. Absolutely love it. Having said that, 2nd apoc is a contender for #1 in my eyes. Hope you enjoy the rest of it and have a lovely day!!!!
@@shadowtemple7426 I hope you have a lovely day too! First in, last out!
Really interesting discussion, I’m really interested in y’all’s take on women especially by the end of the trilogy.
Aspect emperor without spoiling anything does a lot of interesting things
There is something about the way Bakker writes that makes this bleak world so damn compelling that you can’t put it down.
I’m nearly done with Warrior Prophet, and I completely agree with your final statement!
darn time zones making me miss this live! I've only read the first book but I've been looking forward to discussions of this book immediately since finishing it.
Oh, it was actually recorded, not a livestream, so you didn't miss any fun, Joseph! We'll be chatting about book 2 in early December. All the best!
Wow! I read these books when they first came out, ages ago, and have sought an intelligent discussion of them, not just a rehash of the plot. I've felt very much alone for the last 15 years since it seems they are only now beginning to be read for the first time. Kudos for a deeper, darker philosophical dive.
I’m glad you enjoyed the discussion! We tackled book two, The Warrior Prophet, on Johanna’s channel as well, and soon we will be on Raf’s channel talking about book three, The Thousandfold Thought.
Reading these books is great in and of itself, but having these discussions at the end of each books makes them even better! I haven't finished watching the video, but I have to point out how amazing Bakker's prose is. Rare is the book where I can just sit and enjoy the imagery painted by the author because it's just so interesting and beautiful to read. English being my second language, I don't always explicitly get when prose is very good compared to German books (Steven Erikson and Tad Williams are authors that read very well, but don't make me notice the prose itself that much), but Bakker's writing is a joy to me. I don't know how to call it - lyrical, purple prose-ish? Whatever it is, I want more of it!
Coming from a German-speaking background, it was also interesting to hear how you pronounced the names, as the use of umlauts made me read them very differently! Although Bakker being American makes me think that you had the right pronunciation.
I agree with you about Bakker’s prose - he’s a fantastic writer on the sentence level, which is not all that common these days. He’s actually Canadian, but my copy of the book has a pronunciation guide in the back, and I definitely needed it. I’m pretty terrible at pronouncing vowels with the umlaut in German, but I still love the language. Cheers!
I'll probably never read this series, but watched this to see what kind of philosophy is discussed. Predestination, to me, is a very jaded approach and something I don't believe in and feel like it's an excuse or a crutch for some people. The subconscious is definitely controlling things that you may not have full control over consciously, but we all have the ability to make our own decisions and how we react to internal or external forces. Probably my views are influenced by Buddhism which I like to study and implement in my life, but it was still my choice to purposefully study Buddhism which leads to that worldview. But who knows, maybe it's all a simulation to make it look like we have free choice, but I'm glad I've convinced myself there is no predestination at the very least! Ha
Idk if I feel it’s a crutch for me, but something I consider almost daily in life. It’s pretty worthy to explore imo, especially in fantasy/fiction
I try to convince myself that I have some agency too, Josh, and then I try to behave as if I do. That's perhaps heroic in itself.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy could argue it’s the obvious way one would behave, regardless if things are pre determined or not
@@thefantasynuttwork For sure
@@thefantasynuttwork Definitely not saying it's a crutch for everyone, but I've heard many people in my life argue for it in a religious and philosophical way. Religion being that they have no control over their lives, it's in God's hands. Philosophy being that nothing really matters so why care. Both are crutches. Your reasoning from what I heard in the video is great Jimmy because you may believe nothing matters or lack of will but yet you still try to experience it all as if it does. No crutches for you! Ha
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Raphael is a bit on the spectrum. I can tell he has a pretty sharp intellect but seems to struggle with certain aspects of storytelling that I enjoy immensely. Such as mystery, intrigue, imagination, personality and, well, fun. I don't always require every little detail be explained up front in order to enjoy a good story. But I guess we all have our own different reasons for being drawn to fantasy. Going off this discussion I'd probably put myself more on Jimmy's side of things. Good discussion, though would have liked to hear more from Jimmy and Johanna instead of Raphael just rambling on and on about how smart he is.
I'm glad you enjoyed the discussion overall, Andrew! Jimmy may not have said as much, but I thought he did a great job of representing fans of the series. There's a lot to admire in Bakker's writing, and I'm curious to see where I finally land after finishing the series.
I didnt agree with a majority of Raphs points, but I guess I appreciated his POV. He lost me when he mentioned how Bakker trying to make a humorous situation out of the bird poop was problematic. I just don’t understand how someone could be upset with that! It felt like he was reaching pretty hard. But again, I appreciated his PoV. Just finished the first book and decided to reread through it again as I feel I missed a lot. I appreciate this discussion! Love you all! Wish I heard more from Jimmy! When he did speak, I agreed more with the things he had to say.
Jimmy is very polite, but I agree that he has insightful things to say. Thanks for watching, and all the best as you read through the series!
You nailed why I didn't keep going with this series after The Warrior Prophet; lack of hope. I read Fantasy to see glimmers of hope in live. To see simple people doing heroic things in a self-sacrificing way, because that is how I want to believe I would act in that situation. I loved the worldbuilding and the philosophical themes, but ultimately the lack of "hope" feels purposeless. I guess it gets down to why we each read.
Well said, Thomas. I do like to be challenged in my reading, but I don’t think I’d do well reading only stories that present no hope.
Hello 👋 great video with ur CZcamsr friends.... happy reading to you!! 🎥⚔️📽
Thank you, Safina! The same to you!
Thank you all for this discussion. I just finished this first book in the series and in my opinion it's the best fantasy book I have read in many years and is up there with my very favorites. I mean it's not entirely without flaws, but it's strengths so vastly outweigh them. There is an obvious comparison to GRRM a song of ice and fire, in a good way since this is definitely it's own thing - but I think Bakker's prose is more poetic, beautiful and profound even though so much still seems left to be unveiled in the further books. Don't get me wrong, I consider GRRM a good writer and love ASOIAF, but the written-word-as-art-form is more beautifully rendered by Bakker IMO. I enjoyed all four of your perspectives but like Jimmy I don't need there to be any hope, I can go re-read Tolkien for that hahahaha.
I’m glad you enjoyed the discussion! I too have great respect for GRRM’s writing but agree that Bakker’s books have more layers. My guess is that ASOIAF has much broader appeal, but Bakker goes much deeper with the themes. Cheers!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy well said, I have already started book two and look forward to your review and chat on that as well. I'm enjoying your channel in general too. Thanks again and and Cheersalot back!
I'm a little late in watching this. I loved every minute of it. And as a fan boy of Bakker, I really appreciate having Raf's more critical POV, gives me things to think about.
Regarding True Believers in the story - one POV of a true believer (but not a Inrithi true believer) we get is Kellhus. He believes in the Dunyain mission fully.
Hope you continue these discussions as you read the rest of the series
Thanks, Jason! I think Raf added a ton to the discussion. Just as I’m glad Bakker challenges me, it was great to have Raf raising points I hadn’t thought about. Great point about Kellhus too. I’m excited to pick up book two soon!
(Spoilers) The way Khellus comes into the story is absolutely terrifying. I remember thinking i wanted him to come back and do his thing to everyone after the prologue. After i started to 'care' for the other characters and he showed up I felt absolute dread and how he was going to do his 'thing'. The way he still manipulated cnaiur and everyone around him was actually terrifying in a weird way.
I totally agree - well said!
This is my best friend's favorite book series of all time, so I've been meaning to read it for a while. Excited to hear your thoughts, Phillip
Thanks, Terry! It's a challenging series but also extremely engaging. If you give it a try, I hope you'll get a lot out of it.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I listened to the non-spoiler section of the discussion, and it's definitely piqued my interest. I don't have much philosophy background, which was part of my initial hesitation in picking up the series. But based on you all's general thoughts, it seems like an incredibly thematically rich series, regardless of academic background. Thanks for posting this discussion!
In response to the postulating around the 24:00 minute mark about what it means for a man to understand what he is doing.
(Spoilers.)
One realization about the series that blew me out of the water is that; No. Kellus is not a man able to operate out of his own "self movement", and even he is inslaved to the darkness that comes before. Being aware of your own darkness does not render you unmoved by it, or an independent soul as Kellus thinks he is. later, in the 2nd of series of books, we are introduced to the character who (in my opinion) is truly a self-moving soul, in the vein of what Kellus desired to be. However, in meeting this character, we see that living without the darkness that comes before renders one, effectively, insane. It makes you a creature of impulse, not an unmoving or masterful sage pure understanding. It means you are instead enslaved to biological processes, and physical stimulation, because dispute what the Dunyane tried with their selective breeding, a man still has biological need.
I will never be unimpressed by the idea that despite everything the Dunyane tried to accomplish, Kellus is still a slave to unconscious motives and impulses as anybody else is, only he has super powers and a rockin' Jesus bod.
Well said! If only we all had superpowers . . . and the rockin’ Jesus bod wouldn’t hurt. 😁
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy We can only wish... 😔
It's been a few years since I've read the series but I remember having to wait for both Great Ordeal and Unholy Consult to be released to read them. I can confidently say I was not ready for this series. My breadth and depth in the genre was limited and my mainstays were things like Wheel of Time, LotR, Harry Potter (even as a 20-something), and similar. I had barely gotten into A Song of Ice and Fire and I jumped straight into these books. It was honestly hard to read, never having really read something so unforgiving and brutal and hopeless, even in a post-apocalyptic world it was a massive shock.
In any case, after the initial trilogy, and hopefully the 2nd quartet, I'd love to get any/all of the panel's thoughts on how Bakker's work compares to something like Malazan Book of the Fallen (I'm currently reading Bonehunters) or Black Company (haven't read). My understanding is that Bakker doesn't necessarily give the reader any sense of the light at the end of the tunnel, it's just continually dark and devoid of hope. Malazan, on the contrary for me, feels different. I'm not as analytical in my reading but something about what Philip and people like A.P. have stated about hope and empathy in Malazan must bleed through to me on some level to get a different "feeling" coming from the story.
Sorry for the lengthy message, but In reality appreciated this conversation and can't wait for Book 2 discussion!
Thanks, Adam! My sense so far is that Bakker’s series lacks the hope, humor, and exploration of compassion that Malazan features. But, I do need to read at least the first trilogy before making up my mind. There’s a ton of talent in the writing too, so I’ll stay the course.
I can't help but feel, that every time Raphael talked about how Bakker would use minimal description and then allow the reader to use their pre-existing knowledge/understanding/insert whatever, and then use their imagination to fill in the rest, that someone needed to point out, "... I know you're taking issue with Bakker's writing here, but, you're just describing what good writing looks like..."
Loving it, looking forward to the next two.
Bakker is an excellent writer - top tier, in fact. If you enjoyed The Darkness That Comes Before, you will almost certainly love the rest!
I’ve read this series a couple of times. I love it! I’ve cast these characters in my mind. I would love to see a movie but, we know they won’t stick to source material!
I’d still love to see a screen adaptation, especially if they consulted Bakker, but I won’t hold my breath. Cheers!
Watching Raf drink that beer makes me thirsty, am guessing Phillip has whiskey in that mug. Oh yeah, and love the darkness discussion. One of my favorite books.
Ha ha! I wish it had been whiskey! Just water, though I do enjoy a bit of Scotch now and then.
Than you for this scintillating conversation! I'm totally caught up in Bakker's books but there aren't so many people whom I may discuss it with or listen to interesting thoughts. This book was my first attempt to read a fantasy novel in foreign language (English is not my native tongue) and I found it challenging but in a positive way. By the way, could you share with me this discussion between Bakker and blogger about misogyny which Jimmy mentioned? I'd be interested to look into this
I’m glad you enjoyed the discussion! I’m not sure where Jimmy heard about or read about that exchange, but I’ll ask him the next time I see him. All the best!
Friend of mine who had read the series, said: “Imagine “The Silmarillion” or Michael Moorcock’s “Corum” got smashed into the Crusades, then got pummeled by “Dune” and “Event Horizon”/“Hellraizer”!”
The Yimaleti Mountain Range is clearly modeled on the shape of Norway and the human name for the Nonmen, "Oserukki" ("Not Us"), seems to my Norwegian Eyes and Ears eerily similar to almost an anagram of "er ikke oss" (standard bokmål Norwegian: "Are not us"). "Er'u" is also a common contraction in some Dialects/Sosiolects of East Oslo for "er du" ("are you"), so it also sound as "Oss er'u ikke!" (Us, you are not!).
"INRI" was indeed a bit on the nose Jesus-reference, but the second name, Sejanus, must be referencing Sejanus who was the Commander of the Pretorian Guard under Emperor Tiberius and essentially remembered as the posterboy of a favorite who both was a manipulating puppeteer and did the dirty work of Tiberius, only to finally get his comeuppance and executed. Ben Jonson wrote a play about him, and the most famous portrayal of him in "recent" times, is definitly Sir Patrick Stewart in the 1976 BBC adaptation of "I, Claudius" (sidenote: GRRM famously based his Stannis Baratheon on that adaptation's Tiberius, played by George Baker). SInce Sejanus is credited to be responsible for the appointment of Pontius Pilate as Roman Governor of Judea, who judged Jesus to the Cross, I suspect that is intentional, with his thoughts on determinism, manipulation and violence.
As someone who wrote their History Bachelor essentially to refute one of my History101 lecturer's take that "Emperor Constantine invented Christianity", I do have some sympathy with Raf on the Cynical Take on Religion by Bakker, but again, this I feel have heavy influence of Frank Herbert's "Dune"(which is interesting, since "Dune" is often referred to as Genre-defining in its portrayal of women with agency and strength).
Excellent observations, MacScarfield! It’s spelled Sejenus, I think, but that doesn’t invalidate your point. Interesting that it contains all the letters needed for “Jesus” with a couple extra.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Can recommend this video by "Kraut" as an example of why I have some sympathy with Raf's "indignation" over how the "Grimdark Cynical" view has become the "Realistic Middle Ages" used in say "A Song of Ice and Fire" etc : czcams.com/video/H03H73tdh6s/video.html
@@MacScarfield Thanks, as always! I'll check it out now.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Can also recommend this video by "Kings and Generals" as agreat summary of how the "Grimdark" View of the Middle Ages has its origin in Renaissance Humanists, Protestants and Enlightenment Writers View of the (Early/Whole) Middle Ages as "Backwards", while "Classic Fantasy" has an origin in the glorification and romanticizing of the Middle Ages by Counter-Reformation Catholics and later Victorian Romantics (with Tolkien as a clear example) : czcams.com/video/9kHvlapsJjw/video.html
It's great to see Raf in the mix! Thanks for hosting Philip. Great stuff!
I’m glad you enjoyed the chat, Jon! Raf made some excellent contributions, which is no surprise.
On the subject of whether or not Bakker was clear on being anti-misogyny, I think he was clear enough. The prologue establishes the Human Quandary, that everyone is defined by The Darkness. And I love that we start with Kellhus' perspective arming us with the universe knowledge that there are levers that control humanity unseen even by their own thoughts. That essentially, any perspective we enter into moving forward, we shouldnt even take their most intimate and inward thoughts at "face value".
Also there are 3 instances i recall of boys being sexualized and SA'd within the story, my criticism of the criticism is that everyone seems to overlook that.
We have already been trained after the prologue in psychoanalytically deconstructing these character archetypes along with the author.
While he obviously isnt a feminist, Bakker is clearly a No-Misogynst. One thing I noted about the Scylvendi worship of war in and of itself (equated with intellect) is that the swazond indicate specifically a foes "absence". I think in terms of the author defining and trying to understand evil, hes trying to establish that there is an evil and finding some rationally sound method to defy it, but not to necessarily define any good in the world. Instead of venerating goodness and virtue, I find the overall meta-narrative more about negating evil.
I find in dark/modern fantasy the moral grey motif comes up all the time, that somehow tolkein was all about black/white morality. But within Tolkein it was not Black/White, there was no Black, for Tolkein Evil had no ontological status and is merely an absence of Good in a place it could potentially return. I myself find morally grey fiction drunkenly returning to this true point of Tolkein, that Good is not relative, but it is in fact Evil that is relative. That people only claim good is relative to justify an evil they are about to do.
But if we find that these characters in Bakkers world are wicked internally, but do end up saving the world, then we can say that they remain instruments of good, just like Smeagol was.
The same way wicked men wield the holy war in this world, Illuvitar wielded the wicked men of Middle Earth
Thank you for the thoughtful comments! I agree with you about Tolkien’s stance on good and evil. All the best!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy just finished the book and this panel left me with so many thoughts!
@@followingtheroe1952 I’m glad! There are discussions on my friends’ channels on the subsequent two books. I’ll be reading Aspect Emperor in 2024. Cheers!
I read the first 3 books in this series, earlier this year. Whilst I really liked the 4 main characters (especially Kellhus), and 2 or 3 scenes in each of the books, I felt very lukewarm on the series. Hopefully this discussion will ignite my need to read the next 4 books in the series.
I hope the chat was inspiring for you, Elna!
Firstly, discussion. \o/
Secondly, I see where mr Bakker came from with this book but it just is too... it's hard to sum up or explain, it's many things that combine for me where it kind of overshoots the philosophical aspect, for me there is like a layer of gloom (sterility? not sure which words!) such that it almost feels like a onesided exploration, without necessarily only having such topics. It should be for me because I definitely like both historical, psychological and 'realistic' fantasy. However it was a while since I read them and I did finish, but I was considering not doing that by the last book - it's not that I think the writing is bad, it just wasn't for me. Also, I have a personal problem with the series that I feel like is better to talk about later when all the books are read.
I’m glad you enjoyed the discussion, Violet! I can see this is a series I’ll be reading to feel challenged. I hope to hear more about your take in the future!
Imperial incest is icky. I'm hoping 2nd Apocalypse gets more readers from this exposure because it really is a work of Quality. Going to have to reread these myself.
I agree with both statements, Kalle! 😁
I see your book, and raise you three!
The Atlantis Gene
Winter World (both of these are by A.G. Riddle, and free if you have Amazons Kindle subscription).
And the final title is "New Eden", by Kishore Tipirneni. Again, free with an Amazon Kindle subscription.
Now, all three of those are the first book in their series. As far as I know, all three are trilogies.
The first one is just a question about the origin of mankind.
Winter World, is more about first contact and needing to leave planet earth...maybe forever.
And New Eden is essentially a better written version of both of those ideas, but in the form of us leaving earth WITH some assistance.
Again, all three of those are the start of a different trilogy. I have read all of them and their respective series.
Thank you for the recommendations!
It has been about ten years since I read these books, so my memory is rather fuzzy, but I did like the first book a lot and the next two were still good, but after that the tendency for all characters to be completely broken and/or sociopaths got so prevalent that it got on my nerves so hard that I quit the series somewhere in the beginning of The Judging Eye...
Yeah, having all the characters be broken or sociopathic could be an issue for me too, but I’m hoping to find enough to admire to keep me going. Cheers!
I would say the way Bakker writes in Darkness comes from who inspired him: Frank Herbert and Dune. Even when Herbert is making up things outside of the Lawerence of Arabia framework of Paul's journey, he will barely describe anything and spend most of the narrative on people's interior monologues.
That's spot on, Andrew! Cheers!
hello dr chase.. i have a malazan question for you if thats ok.
malazan spoilers follow...
i am very excited to start my malazan journey hopefully soon . but throgh my own fault i was spoiled about karsa and i have heard that he commits atrocities and then gets a redemption arc .i personally think some things are unforgivable. so my question is
is it ok in the fandom to not redeme a a character yourself even if the author wants you to do so?
The answer to your question is undoubtedly yes. Also, I’m 100% sure that Steven Erikson does not actually insist that Karsa is redeemed. In fact, he wants the reader to think about redemption, and he does not offer a definitive yes or no. Having spoken with Steven Erikson about Karsa, I’m fairly comfortable in making these assertions. Best wishes for your read!
Does Bakker agree with the philosophies he's put forward in these books. As an fiction author, the freedom to explore ideas outside of the context of reality is THE benefit; to wind them up and then to set them at play amongst a universe that is not ours but might give us some insight into our own conditions. One does not need to agree with an idea to entertain it nor to play around and interrogate it.
An excellent point!
I am by no means expert on philosophy, so my understanding might be flawed. From what I get out of Sartre is that the brutality of those people's world makes the burden and weight of choice and freedom almost infinite. Embracing a deterministic view of that world and the total obliviousness to a scarier "option" makes life less brutal for them. So the book might be about the solace of blocking out the idea of freedom to cope with the immense brutality.
That’s a wonderful way to put it - thank you!
This book is effing masterpiece and I only just gotten into fantasy! Wheel of time first book in comparison is pile of boring shit in every aspect! Can't wait to start with book 2!
Bakker is an extremely talented writer, for sure.
I read this book a long, long time ago, and basically all I remember of it was that it was completely fucking miserable. I'm not sure that it would appeal to myself nowadays, but I at least appreciate your discussion of it.
I'd say this book was an 8 on the Misery Index, just so it could leave room for the subsequent novels, which are much more miserable by far.
"Miserable" is an apt word in this case, I think!
@@johnbarry6914 🤣
"Raph at about 1:10 seems to suggest that dystopian themes or worlds without perfect justice shouldn't be created in fiction. I find that extremely problematic.
Of course, we very much need dystopian themes and worlds without perfect justice in fiction, not least because of the world we actually live in. I can’t speak for Raf, but I suspect he would agree.
I was looking forward for this discussion and really enjoyed it. 👍 But I need to say one thing: I agree with nearly everything Raf said and I totally get his points, but I don't think these points are valid critique to the world building. The builder of fictional worlds can choose the conditions he wants if they are not self-contradictory and as a reader you choose to enter or not, but I see no reason or possibility to argue about it. For example I believe in free will, but I find it very interesting to explore a fictional world that denies it. If it shows how f... up a world like these would look like, it could even be an argument for my own worldview. But concerning the mysogyny I agree. Maybe Bakker has gone a bit too far. This might not have been necessary to make his point. (Sorry for my probably bad grammar! 😥)
Your grammar is great, Mirko, and you make your points well. Also, I’m glad you found the discussion engaging. Cheers!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Thank you for your kind words! I always find great value in your content. It especially helped me to give Steven Erikson another try. And I share your admiration for Robin Hobb. I hope one day you will do a re-read and video about Susanna Clarke's first book. 🤩 And do I remember correctly that you mentioned that you are going to read Gene Wolfe in the near future? He is also one of my favorites and I think The Wizard Knight is truly among "the best of fantasy" (many people might disagree and I admit it is a challenging read, but I think it is worth it).
@@mirkoeinhorn09 Yes! I hope to read Book of the New Sun relatively soon.
So much to cover...
I hadn't noticed the lack of description. The story is so character driven. There are examples of faith but only by action, the pov's are the ruling class who are mostly cynical.
It is an interesting question if Kellhus believes he has freewill. I would say somewhat but the goal of the Dunyain appears to be how to break the chain of causality. But predestination vs. freewill doesn't really fit. Rather the war between intellect and emotion. Kellhus takes full advantage of the emotions that he has eliminated, it they were ever there in the first place. He is essentially a Bene Gesserit in everything but name...and gender I suppose.
But Bakkers writing is just so immersive. Which makes multiple scenes that much more disturbing. But he wants you to be disturbed, but I really wish he wouldn't be so effective.
One topic that Raf touched on is that Bakker never, as far as I can tell, comes out as anti religious. Rather he ramps up the dangers of a charismatic leader and how easily faith can be manipulated. If you cande convinced to believe anything even contrary to your own belief or logic, you can be convinced to do anything.
But glad to hear you are continuing as now you can see what all the fuss has been about. I will echo Johanna's sentiments that I am very glad I read them but processing the experience is difficult and ongoing.
Well said, Eric, especially in regard to the immersiveness of Bakker’s writing. The fact that it’s so effective in that regard is no doubt part of the reason behind the difficulty of some scenes.
Please do some #NoGodChat next time because what a cool version of a Dark Lord: a metal sarcophagus in the center of a whirlwind, so opposite to life that every child is stillborn while he exists.
I hope to find out more about the No God in book two, and I'm sure we'll have to discuss such an important and intriguing entity.
54:40 this is for me
It was an interesting part of the discussion!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy a little more like a bookmark, but yeah, i think i did pause it specifically there because of how, er.. spicy? the convo was getting?
@@billyalarie929 Yes, indeed, a bit of spice there, but still palatable and respectful.
Just casually dropping Nietzche talk 😂
Oh, you know, the other day I was reading Nietzsche . . . 😁
there was the entire vulgar holy war glossed over here for true believers
An important point, though I think we didn’t get much into the perspective of anyone involved in the Vulgar Holy War. Their doings and fate are mostly reported. Cheers, Will!
The truly true believers will come later on
@@Red21Viper Good to know!
For me the next book was the best one, simply amazing, but the next trilogy is not capturing me
The Warrior Prophet was also my favorite of The Prince of Nothing Trilogy.
this guy raphael just likes to ramble jesus
The funny thing is that word “ramble” is one he uses to describe his videos all the time, but I think he comes up with some powerful points in those rambles. All the best!
Johanna, you're "much older" than 31?!
i would've GUESSED 31, had i been asked!
Same, though I actually know how old she is.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Ancient assassin elf magic!
Interesting point Raf brought up about religious zealotry and the fact that few characters actually embody it.
On the one hand it could be a very cynical view of the human nature. A small number of people genuinely hold a belief to be intrinsic to their self, that self same belief is held as lip service by the masses out of fear of being branded "the other". Those in power use that belief sparked by the true believers as the catalyst for an undertaking that will ultimately serve their bottom line. The Emperor is the prime example in the book and is the most explicit example, and frankly we've seen this in modern times with the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan.
On the other hand, I would say that the Mandate schoolmen are true zealots. Sure, they get a horrific dream every night that helps solidify their belief but the nature of magic in Bakkers world is obscure enough that one could interpret this as a side effect of Gnosis. They truly believe, to their core, that they hold the keys to stop the second apocalypse, and we see in Achamian the inner wrestlings of a believer when confronted with an equal and opposite pull to their faith
Excellent points here! I agree about the exploitation of beliefs versus genuine faith. And that’s a valid perspective on the Mandate Schoolmen, whom everyone else thinks of as crazy and deluded. Cheers!
Understanding that this is loosely based on the crusades and early 11th century Europe/Middle eastern time period, were there a lot of options for women that would have thrust them into the spotlight/position of power? Bakker doesn’t offer many POV from farmers or cobblers. It’s a bleak world for all except the ultra rich and that’s just in a materialistic way, they mostly seem morally bankrupt and miserable creatures.
While I don’t envy the life of a sex worker, is surviving a 1,000 mile march through the desert starving and dying of thirst just to be hacked to pieces or burnt alive much better?
Also, Esme is one of the more “good” characters in the book. Not to mention, she might be one of the strongest people in the entire series.
Esme is definitely one of the characters for whom I have the most sympathy, and that is probably intentional on Bakker's part.
I can understand some of Raph’s points but they’re bizarre in almost how wants Bakker to write a completely different book.
You’ve got a good point there!
Its ironic, this discusion opens with a Nietzsche quote about the pitfalls of certainty. Throughout the discussion we have 3 panelists who frame their perspectives with an open and inquisitive dialoge, they seek to be enlighted through the discussion. On the other hand, their is Raf, who makes assertions in a more absolute and assertive manner, while reveling in being contrarian.
Raf's inability or unwillingness to suspend disbelief makes this discussion almost unbearable. He picks at the low hanging fruit and stymiese the discussion more often than he adds anything meaningful to it.
One thing that seems important to me about Bakker’s writing, which is exquisite even as it feels so bleak, is that he is trying to explore and perhaps even warn about the consequences of certainty. That’s something I deeply appreciate. Thank you for watching and for the feedback!
This dude Raf is a total goober stroking his mustache and trolling Bakkers writing. Every point that Philip, Joanna, or Nut God make are immediately shot down by the mead drinking troll. Really wish you guys were able to do the streams without him as, in my opinion, he contributes little with his criticisms. Seems like he’s just constantly reaching to not only disagree but to bash Bakkers writing.
I love that you used one of my favorite words, “goober,” in your comment, Conor. Also, “Nut God” makes me smile every time. 😁 To your point, Raf does tend to offer the counter view much of the time. It can be frustrating - I hear you - but I also find value in that. If someone like Raf makes me think about my position on a book, or anything else - then I’ll be better able to defend my position later on. I think even Raf would say there’s a lot to admire in Bakker’s writing too, but he likes to take things apart. Anyway, thanks for watching!
I got like 30 minutes into this and had to stop listening. With beard guy trying too hard to prove his philosophical superiority to Bakker (who’s a professor I’m pretty sure) and going off about no religious zealots in the book, and not knowing main character names, it seems like he didn’t read it. I think I’m too much of a Bakker zealous to tolerate this.
If someone can tell me the next hour is beard guy letting others speak about the book I might listen to the rest of it. Kick him out for the other talks and I will buy you an ice cream.
Ha ha! I'm very tempted by the ice cream bribe!
I'm afraid I did not like this series (DNF'd halfway through Book 2) or the representation of...well any characters but definitely the female characters! Also I found it quite boring sadly. Will still be tuning in for the panel discussions of the later books (I don't mind spoilers). 🙂
Thank you, Paromita! I tend to be that way when it comes to spoilers too.
I love Raf with his counterpoints and unique takes, but he got tiresome throughout this discussion.
Yes, Bakker relies on our predetermined ideas of what certain historical civilisations look like, but to immediately equate this to western propaganda of the Byzantine empire is a bit much. I would say the vast majority of readers would equate the Empire to the imperial Roman Empire, for example, with their superstitions, their augeries, their pomp and ceremony.
The truth is that the vast majority (I hesitate to write “all”) of fantasy writers rely on aspects of our world and human history and cultures to create their worlds. This creates a sense of recognition in the reader that is very useful and can be used creatively, as I think Bakker does.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I had that thought also while listening to your fantastic discussion. I would throw out the idea that it'd be almost impossible to examine and create cultures in a fantasy setting without basing them somewhat on real world historical examples. I'm sure it could be done, but the effort it would take for a ,likely, shallow, paper thin version of something that should be rich and immersive simply wouldn't be worth it.
I'm only half way through the warrior prophet, but I think a key part of Bakkers writing is that rapid oscillation between "the grand events" at a deliberately high level and the intimate interpersonal details of the main movers in these events. Which is very interesting, since in most of the fantasy I've read there isn't that reflective disconnect.
To reiterate, I've got absolutely nothing against Raf. He's a very thoughtful and insightful person that brings a lot to discussion. I feel that for Prince of Nothing, the series happened to touch on something he's particularly knowledgeable about, hence causing him to see flaws in that area and this hyper scrutiny is carried over to everything in the novel (if that makes sense)
For me, I know more than most about historical swords and somewhat about how they were used. Some of Sanderson's early works in Stormlight drove me insane haha.
@@koleary1798 Ha ha! Yes, we do tend to be sensitive about our realms of expertise. I’m sure any decent sailor would recognize me as a landlubber from my descriptions of sailing in my writing, and, being a medievalist, I often wince at many fantasy writers’ attempts at archaic English in their dialogue or exposition. I agree with you about some grounding in the world around us being helpful, perhaps even necessary, for fantasy. Cheers!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy thanks for taking the time to chat Philip!
I'm fervently waiting for March to get my hands on The Way of Edan! Not sure when in the month it'll be out but I've kept all of March flexible so I can read it ASAP.
@@koleary1798 It’s my pleasure! Thank you so much for your interest in The Way of Edan! The planned release date is March 21, and things are looking good for meeting that goal. All the best!