The Mystical Dreams of Descartes - Exploring the Origins of Rationalism and Modernity
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- čas přidán 18. 06. 2020
- In this episode we explore the non-rational origins of rationalism by investigating a series of dreams had by Rene Descartes - thought to have founded rationalism and modern philosophy - on the night of November 10/11, 1619. Early in his career Descartes, like many intellectuals of his day, was searching for new intellectual and scientific foundations as the worldview provided by Aristotle had become moribund. In this search, Descartes explores many avenues for the truth from strict logic to mystical Rosicrucianism. In this context, he experiences a profound fit of 'enthusiasm' and has a series of three dreams which ground and propel his own foundationalist project. This episode explores how the origins of rationalism and modernity are simply more esoteric, even mystical, than we typically learn in intellectual history or philosophy classes.
Recommended Readings:
Adrien Baillet - La vie de Monsieur Descartes - archive.org/download/bub_gb_R...
John Cottingham - The Philosophical Writings of Descartes in 3 vols.
Alice Browne - Descartes's Dreams - www.jstor.org/stable/750999
Michael Keevak
- Descartes's Dreams and Their Address for Philosophy - www.jstor.org/stable/2709883
William Shea - Descartes and the Rosicrucian Enlightenment - Metaphysics and Philosophy of Science in the Seventeenth and Eighteenth Centuries, Pages 73-99
Frances A. Yates - The Rosicrucian Enlightenment, pgs 113 et passim
#descartes #philosophy #rationalism
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Sir, for one I profoundly appreciate your teachings. You're much more than CZcams presenter, your a reminder, an intellectual nudge to aim higher. In this time of triumphant "ordianism" you are a sharp, a well defined study in contrast and focus. Thankyou
Makes me think of the Einstein quotes "logic will take you from A to B, imagination will take you anywhere" and "imagination is more important than knowledge"
Descartes’ “enthusiasm” sounds a bit like one of my manic episodes (including vivid dreams). I know it’s probably a separate phenomenon, since most manic episodes don’t result in a revolutionary new philosophy, but there could be some kind of link between this old emotion and what we now call bipolar manic episodes.
I was gonna comment this exact thing lmao
excellent! Jeff Kripal's recent book "The Flip" is all about scientists and philosophers who had some kind of mystical or "paranormal" experience that influenced their worldview and work. He also is always mentioning how after he gives presentations as universities, professors who would never admit the paranormal into their professional life come to him afterwards or over a beer and always have some story to tell him about their brush with the mystery. It's funny how public intellectual culture maintains this strict persona of materialism when behind the scenes almost no one is actually a materialist lol.
Thanks! Yeah I've been meaning to get around to his text. I think he also has one about comic books and esotericism which seems great. I think the truth of it is that very few people actually have a very worked out metaphysics. I worked in metaphysics for years and the one thing I consistently noticed was that so few people actually belonged to one school or line of thinking. They would study Deleuze or Kant or Strawson but when pressed or if I asked them over drinks "What do YOU think of the ontological status of phase sortals, an ontology of pure difference, or their position on mathematical realism, etc., most folks would take a stout dram and say, "Well, it's complicated...."and proceed to talk for ten minutes without once making a personal, metaphysical commitment. My experience is that meeting someone in the wild with a developed metaphysics of any kind if pretty rare.
@@TheEsotericaChannel if you go to buddhists or vedantins they all have very developed metaphysics which they are ultra-dogmatic about, but mostly they are just repeating shit they read or stuff their teachers told them. At least philosophers can say "well according to this view.... but on the other hand....and it is not entirely clear whether...." To me, this is a more honest perspective. The problem is our language is mostly designed to talk about practicalities, not mystical or supernatural states, but it may be impossible for any language to articulate such experiences: hence apophatics. You talk in the video about how Aristotle's physics has been superseded, but I would add that his metaphysics has not been. This is because metaphysics is more akin to art than to science, and no one would claim that Bach has been superseded by Xenakis, they can co-exist perfectly well. I think we can also say that during the entire history of Western Philosophy not a single question has been answered decisively lol. I'm not saying that's a problem, it's the nature of the beast. It's probably better to have some ineffable metaphysical experience anyway than it is to attempt to work out a highly abstract theoretical metaphysical framework, although I sure like Spinoza's attempt. It's really the old cliche about the blind men and the elephant: every religion, every philosophy is perceiving or intuiting some aspect of the infinite, they only err when they become triumphalist, which unfortunately they almost always do.
@@danterosati "that his metaphysics has not been." - For sure, I just read a very rigorous defense of scholastic metaphysics including teleology which, as I'm sure you know, is very unpopular these days. But for sure, it's super difficult - perhaps the most difficult problem of all.
@@TheEsotericaChannel what's the difficulty? I go for a walk in order to be healthy. Simple, no? lol Teilhard de Chardin didn't seem to have a problem with it either. But seriously, of course what you say is true, but it's not about deciding whether the Stagirite was correct or off his rocker: the very process of thinking it through even though there is no answer is the whole point, and the telos is, dare I say, awakening. You know, like how Descartes analyzed his dream while he was still dreaming: isn't that what we are trying to do in this waking reality?
@@danterosati Certainly, it could be. The question of teleology was never about us. We are obviously creatures who tend towards self-conscious ends. The question is does nature or more generally does being itself have 'teloi'. And one has to prove that to get Aristotle's final cause and without it, the system, from 'natural place' to 'eudaimonia' breaks apart. That shattering, is to my mind, the greatest event in all of philosophy since there was philosophy. And why I think, modern philosophy, is utterly liminal. We are caught between the totality of Aristotle and the totality of Spinoza.
I just included this episode in my first year bachelor course "Diversifying Philosophy". It worked very well to show the students the exclusions that are generally made in the philosophy curriculum. Thanks for your valuable work!
I'm glad it was a useful episode - thanks for including it!
I know you get tired of this...your lectures are refreshingly well paced and informative..no clowining around...very good and thank you for your balance...thank you
I don't think anyone gets tired of being told they did a good job :) Also, I don't take it for granted. Thanks for your saying so and taking time to follow my stuff.
Would have never guessed Dr. Sledge is a black metal fan 🤘🤘
Dr. Sledge is a pretty metal name
@@evanstevenson329 Dr Sledge of Esoterica: exploring the arcane, no less
Love these videos...watch nightly before bed.
around minute 32!! AGREE. so cool.
Thanks!
Me too. Makes me think of Israel Regardie's mission writing publicly.
"We doubt our way to the truth." Damn right.
One of the best videos so far. Love Descartes and love black metal
\m/
Thank you for this! I have heard Terrence McKenna talk briefly about Descartes dreams in one of his bardic lectures, but not to the degree you have here. It is a beautifully crafted wrench to throw into the machine of atheistic scientism.
Absolutely, I think it's a fascinating window onto the origins of rationalism. For me, I just want to be honest about how these ideas develop rather than spinning them into something that makes contemporary philosophers comfortable. Thanks for taking the time to watch the episode!
@@TheEsotericaChannel it doesn't seem like you have to spin it to make contemporary philosophers uncomfortable though ha.
This is truly fascinating! I see Descartes in a whole new light.
Great mathematician and philosopher.
Thank you for enlightening us.
My new favorite channel.
Please keep doing what you do!!
Oh and I read in my dreams quite often, so I believe it's a myth which causes those who believe it to fulfill it!
I was reading in dreams before I was exposed to this myth, thankfully, so I dismiss it.
It's not always intelligible, sometimes it's a string of seemingly random words, but at the very worst, it's still words, and that's the rare "worst".
I don't know what people that believe they cannot read in dreams claim to happen when they try to read, so I give you my raw experience.
Nice to know - I'm not sure where I heard that but always happy to hear other experiences! Thanks for the compliment and for watching!
Yeah, just to confirm it as well, I've read in dreams before too, even longer phrases that made logical sense and occasional language switches that also made sense (along the lines of English: "Translate this text" and then words in another language). We would probably realise that strange dream stuff is way more common if more people recalled their dreams (even if Descartes vision still sounds extremely extraordinary)
@@Diamantenvogel I've had hypnogogic state visions (dreams?) in which I'm reading a page of text that I simultaneously understand on the 'dream' side but haven't a clue on the 'awake' side. Upon fully awakening I still haven't a clue.
Yes, one can read inside a dream (sometimes). Reading inside a dream is one of the criteria I use to determine if I am lucid dreaming or not. I have often read things in my dreams but sometimes for whatever reason I can not.
Reading in dreams isn't exactly reading, it's an image of written text but that is all, your brain will tell you what it is while dreaming, and you'll recognize it's words but only as one image, not as word by word text.
I love this video so much. It reminds me so much of the relationship of Kant to Swedenborg. Absolutely fascinating
Thank you, thank you, thank you, I can't thank you enough to put this properly into words on top of the wonderful research.
Glad you enjoyed it!
the description of enthusiasm has me thinking of "fire in the head" as described by some religious and mystical sources. I've experienced this while meditating and while playing music a few times. It's like the top of your head opens up. And in the case of playing music, time dilates.
The band Killing Joke, who are so into esotericism they found 2 of their band members with a spell, describe such an experience during one of their performances in the movie "The Death and Resurrection Show".
PS Wolves in the Throneroom! Saw them years ago. Great band. Furious!
had experiences like this; can confirm you can read in certain types of dreams. not all dreams, but spiritually significant ones are different. wildly so.
Appreciate your videos Dr. Sledge!
I first heard about these dreams from Terence McKenna lectures where he said Descartes had a dream where an angel told him "The conquest of nature is to be achieved through measure and number.” I used to repeat this story until I saw this video now and researched a bit more that McKenna had invented aspects of his story or misremembered and that based on the period evidence there was a different nuance to the details.
After watching this the first time, I watched it again with my friend. This is a perfect example of philosophical irony. It's extremely upsetting though that the rationalists are trying so hard to keep this stuff under wraps.
You may be interested in hearing that my apologetics professor at seminary has extensive lectures on the influence of mysticism, alchemy, hermeticism, etc, on the ancient world into our modern day. People around here joke that one of his courses is essentially alchemy 101. So its interesting to hear a similar set of theses from a much different corner of scholarship.
I simply love your channel...wish you the best.
Thanks so much - glad you enjoy the content!
Closet full of black metal tshirts, I feel u bro!
Speaking of which, if u wanna make a one off just for fun video on the influence of mysticism in metal, that would be really cool.
Great show - thank you!
Your remarkable talks manage to communicate an enormous range of information with dry witty asides. I share many of your interests including the history of absinthe. I was amazed when you mentioned Johann the civil & military engineer most known for his mathematical adances. I had never heard of his "Rosicrucian adjacent" writings. Not since learning rational thinkers like Descartes, Newton and Leibnitz had occult interests was I so delighted to see the dichotomies at play in a single individual.
Impressive analysis and content! 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
" Method On Discourse" is an amazing book by Rene Descartes;, and like Aristotle very logical. Thank you.
Really your videos are always a treat, never regretting my donation
Such an interesting discussion, thank you. Just to say that I have had the experience of reading inside my dreams. It is possible.
Absolutely superb. Thank you for this
Thanks so much!
Great video, thank you!!
Thanks for watching!
This is a good one!!
What a wonderful lecture!
I have been able to read in dreams (and occasionally, but not with complicated lines,) re-read sentences. I can also do sums but subtraction is difficult
Really enjoyed this. Subscribed.
Fantastic!! so interesting!
It returns!
I had no idea. Thank you so much.
You are very right about the active suppression.
I had to pause the video and give you props for that banger of a French joke, absolutely saw it coming but it was still fire
You know, I am interested in many weird and wonderful things, but I get bored easily and don't have the dedication to pursue some of these ideas to their roots, so I am thankful to have found a person who can hold my attention, amaze me, teach me and give me the broad strokes and a base understanding. Oh, and also more questions, damn. Thank you sir for your work and your time.
p.s. I think the word "enthusiasm" would most closely relate to "fervor" as I understand it.
Good day, Doctor!
I was curious if you're still spinning out ideas for this series on the esoteric aspects of canonical philosophers? If so, I have been curious what your take on Hegel and his Phenomenology of Spirit would be. I've only read through it once, but throughout my trek there were numerous instances of parallels between the notions of universality and the hermetic notions of 'The All'.
Thank you for all your work! Your presentation is excellent, approachable, and highly insightful!
- Drew
Absolutely - Hegel (and Schopenhauer) are certainly on the agenda and hopefully I will get to one of them later this Fall or Winter!
@@TheEsotericaChannel
Fantastic! Thank you for your scholarship.
excellent!!! if you were her in this space 7 years ago, you would have saved me so much confusion... trully, Thank You!
I've read in dreams! It usually goes haywire but sometimes comes out as names of really weird places or words or just plain silly
I love the mention of incubation, I’ve been digging into this topic as of late. I’d love to hear more from Dr. Sledge about this.
This week's video touches on it as well. But yeah, could be a whole episode!
Bravo!
32:24 love it! everything has its Rhythm
I want to stand up and cheer for this video.
I have read inside of dreams. The letters and words have been constricted to their image value, in that numbers and names on mail don’t have to make sense, Coca-Cola and like iconography is still also very readable. I’ve never read a short story in a dream, mind you, but I’ve definitely had dreams with readable text.
The tricky bit is that if you look away and look back the words will change and if you look at it too long or hard, the words will twist on you. So, to read in a dream, it has to be something you can take in at a glance.
I have had many dreams in which I have read, the words are intelligible and I usually remember them when I wake. Nothing earth shattering so far.
It's so interesting to see so many people that read in their dreams!
@@TheEsotericaChannel It may be related to lucid dreaming? Fun practice and not hard to learn..
The natty lights got me. I’m rolling over here
One must obey the natural light (of reason)
One of my favorite dream stories was from a college roommate of mine: where in his dream he visited a gypsy fortuneteller -- who showed him snapshots from his dream the night before.
this is so badass!
A "logical" explanation for finding valid solutions in dreams or thoughts seemingly out of nowhere is the fact of the human brain having two almost totally separate hemispheres that communicate with each other very little, one of which deals with what we are intentionally paying attention to while the other is aware of the things on the periphery like the snapping twig of a predator sneaking up on you while your focused on something like picking up nuts or some other task. You may only have a vague feeling of uneasiness because you didn't consciously hear the snapping twig.
I too have had dreams where I am bent in a terrible position unable to move correctly. This I always associated with my dream awaring myself to my own paralyzed body. Same with speech being weak. I've even had dreams where people usually my brother will tell me that all this is a made up world inside a sleeping body. It's incredible to know that Descartes had the bent dream, and you even realize it was sleep paralysis!
NOTE: You can't read in dreams, however you can kinda. Text can show as a image, or symbol. Like if you are familiar with some phrase, and know it's written form, you can dream that, but it's just an image in your mind of it as it looks, it's not really word by word reading.
That analytical/middle school geometry equation had me rolling on the floor. There are definitely more important lessons to learn at that specific age.
I think the problem for hardline rationalists is that the scientific process starts with (hopefully correct) intuition. If the idea can be tested, it becomes a hypothesis. If there's more evidence going for it than against, it becomes a theory. If there's almost no evidence against it, it become a principle. And if there's no evidence against it at all, it becomes a law. However it all starts with an idea. So what is the basis of generating many great ideas throughout history?
(CZcams) René Descartes - Science Was Founded in a Dream (Terence McKenna)
Your humor is desiccated. Bravo.
When Descartes interprets the dream within the dream I believe it can be attributed to Lucid Dreaming : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucid_dream
Cool!
This is amazing. I certainly never heard of this in my into to western philosophy or intro to philosophy classes. Actually no esoteric sources that I can recall were ever covered, let alone links between esotericism and philosophy.
I am really wondering now about links between esotericism and early linguistics, especially with figures such as Ferdinand de Saussure. I don't suppose you would happen to know of any works related to this idea?
13:10 why is "l'esprit humaine" translated with "human intelligence" rather than "human spirit"?
Rock on Sledge, another coffee for you
You should interview Hanegraaff about what you're presenting here. This seems to support the FA Yates hypothesis pretty strongly and makes the connection between modern science and the hermetic tradition (through rosicrucianism) quite obvious.
I've always held that a (much) weaker version of the Yates' thesis is defensible and this Descartes connection isn't trivial in that respect.
There's an interesting story about Isaac Singer, who invented the first practical household sewing machine. He was working on the problem for years, but was frustrated with making it work. Until one night he had a dream of a snake that zoomed in and paid special attention to l the eye on the snake's head. And as the story goes, Singer then woke up and realized the solution to his problem was that he needed to put the eye (hole) of the needle near its point, instead of its back end as is the case when you sew by hand. Don't know if the story's apocryphal or not, but I do think dreams overall tend to focus on what's important to us -- even if for some reason they tend to do so very often in strange and unusual ways.
That picture of Descartes is so French it looks like Rowan Atkinson pretending to be French
in my experience you CAN "read" in your dreams, however I find it exhausting because it requires active effort. In my case the first few lines are there and they're easy but then something happens to the way i'm processing the dream and the text itself and suddenly i have to try to find the words on my own, as if it suddenly it turns into a lucid dream or have to translate a grammatically challenging sentence/slang from a language I do understand
Fantastic stuff, thank you! It would be lovely to know a little bit more about Isaac Newton's involvement with the esoteric side of science. I read a book about him some years ago called "Isaac Newton - The Last Sorcerer", and it suddenly came to my mind as I was listening to your lecture. I understand that Newton was inspired by Rosicrucianism as well, is that correct? Great channel, by the way!
When I was in Cuba I met a Colombian philosopher who was going on and on about Bruno (which sent me down a fascinating Giordano Bruno rabbithole from which I have yet to emerge) and Descartes. He was saying that Princess Christina of Sweden had him killed and that a recent exhumation proved it. Well you know I scoured the internet for that news article and never found anything beyond some theories to that effect. Any thoughts on the premature end to the life of the philosopher?
*JUSTIN SLEDGE:* « You can think of Descartes' project as something like cleaning out a closet. Well, what's the best method for cleaning out a closet? So, you take everything out and you sort it out into three piles, right? There is the _trash_ pile, there is the _keep_ pile, there is the _donate to charity_ pile, there's the _"maybe I'll fit into this one day" but probably not_ pile.
« So if you sort out what's in my closet, which is a lot of detached starched collars *and Black Metal T-shirts,* and substitute in for that, clear and distinct ideas, you see what you get to keep. That is to say, you take out all of the ideas, you find out which ideas are clear and distinct, and those ideas are placed back into the mind to become the foundation for all other ideas... »
*Aha! **_Metal Head!_*
Reminiscent of the structure of the benzene ring being discovered in a dream.
Ok, so I normally just listen to your lectures, but the on screen commentary is very silly, the Natural Light bit got me.
Yeah, it's beer 🍺
The jokes were fresh and spicy this episode 🤣
I have learned so much from Esoterica. I don't know if (Rabbi?, I want to be respectful but I don't know for sure if Mr. Sledge is a Rabbi, or how to spell said title) Rabbi Sledge reads these posts. I hope so! I could listen to these lectures all day (although I often need time to digest the information, it is so mind blowing). I found this episode fascinating. I remember memorizing Theorems in Geometry class as a kid. But I only knew that Descartes was a mathemetician of note. I was unaware of his contributions to science and rationalization.
I'm commenting here regarding "Reading within Dreams". Mr. (Rabbi) Sledge commented that he wasn't sure if it was possible . I'm here to say that I did this once. I was missing my deceased mother very much. She died at the age of 53 in 1984 from cancer. I went through a period (around 10 years later?, Not sure) where, if was was having a rough time, I would dream of visits with my mom. I would awake feeling like a load had been lifted from me. One night I had a dream of her where she was in bed. (I dreamt this a long time ago so I have forgotten a lot of details). I remember that I had asked her something, I think it was related to her death. On the bed was a large book that lay open and she told me to read the pages there. It was a very realistic dream, crystal clear. I looked at the book and it became the whole of my focus (like in a movie). The text was sharp and clear and I read every word. It was an answer to my question. Unfortunately, I didn't write it down upon awakening. But I remember it was something very meaningful and beautifully written. Upon reading those pages I awoke remembering what I had read and moved by it. So, at least one person other than Descartes has read within a dream. I'm sure others have, maybe they just don't remember.
Thanks for the kind comment - not a rabbi, just a phd ;)
I can't read French and I don't think JSTOR will let me make an account.
How can I access and print this?
The moment you described the dreams I was like "oh, holy shit, all of this is in The Meditations." xD
This is wild
The suppression of this pervasive current (Neoplatonic, mystical influences) in Western philosophy (which I refer to as the pornography of philosophy - assiduously studied by predominantly male philosophers, and its influence on their work dissembled about and denied) by academic philosophers is a disgrace and a profound failure of intellectual and social responsibility. A display of the most determined, ideologically motivated ignorance.
ouch. calling something pornography because it's attractive to men is needlessly degrading to the work and the scholars.
Wait, are you in favour of it and it’s also pornographic? That was some tortured syntax.
What is the fundamental problem with modern science you speak of at 8:08? Asserting that the structure of the modern age has flaws usually requires more substantial expansion than that the founder of the idea had a dream.
I think he's just referring to the big gaps in certain fields (like the continued inability to reconcile gravity and quantum mechanics), rather than saying that the scientific program is fundamentally wrong. He may however argue that it's incomplete, or at least not demonstrated complete.
What did you end up making the seminar paper about ?
Diachronic analysis of Descartes' concept of "substantia." Not really as fun as mystical dreams but still worthwhile philosophy, I think. Thanks for asking!
Does anyone know where the La Vie de Monsieur Descartes his dreams are? A page number would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
Book II, chapter 2, page 81ff, link to the original French text in the description
what's the differentiation between enthusiasm and mania?
also i'm looking forward on a video on spinoza 😍
You mention "Rosicrucians" (sp?). I believe there is an organization based in California that identifies itself as such. I know they have been around since the early 1940s (advertisements in some old "Popular Science magazines). Is there any relation?
not the same type of folk
There are Rosicrucian orders AMORC is largest. But do they have continuous connection with the original Rosicrucians is in question.
I have read tombstones in dreams.
Once in a dream I became aware I couldn't read in a dream. A person, I think myself, held up a chalk board with CAT scrawled on it, and said I can.
You should be talking to Jonathan Pageau
What is the name of the picture at 12.35?
It's called the Flammarion Engraving
@@TheEsotericaChannel ok, thank you 😊
Maybe Descartes was going through a mani episode BECAUSE he was going through wine withdrawal :P
Ha! - even better than rationalism having its origins in a fever dream than it being from the DTs :)
There's scholarly work on Leibniz and Kabbalah by A.P. Coudert.
Yep
I can attest myself that reading in a dream is possible, sometimes it's some kind of useful information/food for thought. Layers of dreams and recollecting dream content in another layer isn't that crazy too.
Descartes did have pretty clear mind and I wonder - what kind of spiritual exercises/meditations he practiced? Inner life of philosophers is very interesting and usually ignored. When studying at university, I had this idea that to fully understand some thinker, you need to imitate him to some extent - at least in your imagination. As a result, his views become living expression of a person instead of a dry number of statements.
Thanks for the thoughtful comment!
Reading in a dream is possible if one prepares. A friend of mine does this in his lucid dreams.
I feel like you could make an episode of “ancient aliens” about this topic
That stuff is toxic nonsense
Yup you can read in dreams. But in my experience the words shift in and out of intelligibility
It needs t be bbrought intoo llight lay out the dreams!
I feel like Doctor Sledge is definitely my spirit animal.
"The foundations for Modernity may be Rationalism, but the foundations for Rationalism appears to be Mysticism. And Modernity would be well to come to terms with that."
Let me quote Spock: fascinating...
I had no idea about it.
It's strange that it's being suppressed
Not really - philosophers really like the idea of being supremely rational, logical, etc., and anything that disrupts that narrative freaks them out for some reason.
Scientistic modernity is comfortably conceited in believing that it is self-evident and self-justifying, instead of facing the actual reality which is that it is yet another belief system, and, evidently by the course of current events, one which has produced its own brand of religious zealots just as fanatical, if not more so, than any that have existed in history.