Is The Quran Really A Miracle? Dr. Shady Nasser
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- Äas pĆidĂĄn 18. 09. 2021
- Muslims today say the Quran is a miracle, but MythVision obviously doesn't find that true. Dr. Shady Nasser gives his thoughts on the subject matter. We can learn how this all began by understanding why Muslims think it's a miracle.
Professor Nasser teaches Arabic literature and Islamic Civilizations courses. His previous posting was as a University Lecturer in Classical Arabic studies at the University of Cambridge (UK), in the Faculty of Asian and Middle Eastern Studies.
Shady started his PhD at Harvard University in Arabic and Islamic studies under the supervision of Wolfhart Heinrichs. He completed his PhD in 2011. From 2009-2012 he was a senior lector of Arabic and the coordinator of the Arabic language program at Yale University. In 2013, he was appointed University Lecturer in Classical Arabic studies at the University of Cambridge (UK).
nelc.fas.harvard.edu/people/s...
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Thank you, Derek, for venturing into Islam, an area where many Westerners fear to tread. You really get into dangerous and scantily mapped territory when you explore the mythicist position regarding Mohammad and the origins of Islam. Some argue that Mohammad, Islam, and the Qur'an were later inventions, Mecca barely existed, and non-Arabs formed the backbone of the incredibly successful Muslim conquests in the first 200 years. After that, a religion and a history were reverse-engineered to fit what the rulers wanted the people to believe. It would be very cool to get more of this on your channel.
Someone challenged me recently and in ten minutes I came up with this, I am no poet, I failed grade 10 english 6 times LOL.
Everything together in one tiny space.
Till it expanded, and things took their place.
As things cooled, things started to pool,
and swim in circles with such grace.
From tiny things attracting, great suns were born.
and clouds of dust started the planets to form.
The planets would circle the suns throughout space,
and our planet is 3rd from the sun in its place.
@021 Or maybe we can talk to some of these scientists about science in the quran. czcams.com/video/hzrSWJYRiYU/video.html
czcams.com/video/eziurUGGens/video.html
czcams.com/video/YJUu1wfUzec/video.html
czcams.com/video/6aR7uFYuiKk/video.html
And why wont keith moore talk about it anymore? Why is he not a muslim? Look at what those certain muslims did to those scientists in the videos I posted. What a crock of lies and deceit.
This guy is a pseudo expert at best....
czcams.com/video/SRvc6YARzRY/video.html
The miracle is tens of millions have memorized the entire book. No other book can say that not even close.
Only miracle is that people are still following it
yes
You seem like a calm and reasonable person
đ€Łđ€Łđ€Łđ€Łđ€Łđ€Łđđœâ€
New coverts daily
@@rg6310 people are leaving islam daily
My 5yo memorized, with PERFECT ACCURACY, the entire script of 'Bee Movie'; This incredible miracle is objective PROOF that Jerry Seinfeld is the morally perfect, divine creator of the universe!!
Is that like, can you get 2 people to agree on anything?
WWJSD bracelets needed.
Memorized by ONE 5 yo kid ONLY!!...... That may be a fluke!!...... We are talking about millions and millions of pple! From age 3 yrs to 90 yrs old, from all around the world, and all kind of races, and the best thing is they dont even speak arabic!!........ Thats miracle!!
@@shamjb2278 Iâve memorized Japanese and German songs, and tons of Jewish kids without knowing Hebrew memorize the Torah.
@@shamjb2278Yeah people can memorize stuff.
Means nothing.
Especially when the substance teaches the Sun hides away at night.
Allah was just Muhammad's fake ID
The Quran is a miracle. It's a miracle anyone could be gullible enough to believe its nonsense.
Any one with an IQ lower than 20.
Do you mean it's a miracle anyone could be gullible enough to believe it, the quran, is nonsense or it's a miracle anyone could believe the nonsense that is the quran? That apostrophe is kind of important.
Same with the bible.
@@inova11901 Yes, same as the bible.
Here, grammar is important!
"... to believe it's nonsense." --> qoran is not nonsense
"... to believe its nonsense." --> qoran is nonsense
The problem is miracles are not a real thing.
The only Miracles weâre fronted by Smokey Robinson.
Yes dude , miracles are fake . Doesn't exist.
Something limited atheists would say
@@killyac3548 Or anyone not engrossed in fantasy.
@@louisbauer8669 what makes it a fantasy? The real fantasy is atheists thinking humans were born randomly or from nothing. And that humans are just matters of this universe and all we do is live and die and become worm food. Nothing more?
If the Qur'an is a miracle because people memorize it, then so are the Iliad and the Odyssey.
So is the torah for jews every boy at age 13 (orthodox jews) must remember it by heart
@@immanueljijib3878 for your kind information, no one has memorized Torah ever, these kids you're baiting on don't âmemorizeâ it,
it's called *recitation,*
Nice try though
@@just-some-muslim Orthodox Jews do.
@@TheDizzleHawke Do they memorize the entire Taurat or just portions?
Specific people memorized Homeric epics not average people.
In the apostate wars, Maybe abu bakar fought and kill the 70 quran reciters who perhaps had interpret differently the quran than him and muhammad
You accept every narration you like, even if you don't understand it correctly, from the sources with huge amount of narrations which contradict things you like.
What a brilliant guest! You are absolutely smashing it Derek
It's a miracle that muslims could believe their cult book was really a miracle.
Same with the bible.
,đđŻđđđ
1400 years later and you still can't find any error in the Quran or make a single chapter like it.
@@northwind8821 1400 years later and still no one but its own cultists can find anything believable, relevant or likable in the quran. It's easy to find errors though.
@Greg Kanowitz Yet neither of you can actually provide proof or examples of such alleged errors in the Quran. Keep coping.
Memorising and understanding are two different things!!!
Believing and knowing đ€
Believing and knowing đ€
Yeah
And both must be done
Then tell us do you have anyone who memorized your book to keep it from revisions....?????
So which version do you believe in?????
Thanks God for Islam
Iâve heard a lot about Christianity now Iâd like to hear more about Islam. Itâs a growing religion and I feel we in the west sound ignorant when talking about Islamic history
So what happened over the last 2000 years. That's the question. Does God send messages through men, like Moses and Jesus? And if He does, is it a completely different religion each time? Did God send information to Muhammad? Have there been any messengers since Muhammad? How can we know? Which version of Judaism is the real one? Which version of Christianity is the real one. And if Islam is from God, which version is the real one?
Don't ask those religionists, go to the scripture, the words of Moses, the words of David, the words of Jesus and the words of Muhammad. Well how can we know that the words from each of these guys were not distorted or changed in some way? The Bible is full of nonsense, so do we blame this on God or on those who inserted injections and distortions over time maliciously or innocently?
If you consult the Quran alone and not muslims, you will learn that God allows all of His messages to be distorted. This is God's system. This happened to Jesus's message and it happened to Muhammad's message. Islam is a distortion based on hadith or fables after Muhammad died. God allows this to let those who have disbelief in their heart to be attracted to the distortions and not the truth. God is guiding only the sincere.
The Quran will tell you that all of the messages of God were aspects of the one overall delivery process of instructions to mankind. The concept that Islam is different and relatively new religion from God is false according to the Quran. The Quran states that there was only One religion being built by God. The truth in the Bible was being overlooked by the religionists and the distortions were louder than the truth. So what did God do? He sent a replacement scripture to all the believers of the world. This scripture is intact and completely reliable. It is a replacement scripture. Quran was simply a condensed and purified scripture with all of the relevant stories and examples for us. It tells the correct and accurate history. People think that the stories are copied from the Bible, but really, it is the corrected versions of those stories and some stories that had gotten lost.
We have mathematical proof that it is miraculously mathematically composed and intact. Here is the proof if you are interested.
www.masjidtucson.org/quran/ReadQuran.php?appendix=1
Peace.
@Matthew popp
"Growing religion" because of reproduction ratio!!
@@jefftaylor19 Quran is plagiarism from fake sources as Talmud Sanhedrin Mishnah 4:5 , cave of treasures, apocalypse of Abraham, targum Sheba, infancy gospel of Thomas even Zoroastrian
â@@albusai I have heard your opinion before. Forget what the muslims say about the Quran as they do not know it or follow it.
What does the Quran say it is? The opinion of the Quran is that it is a restorative replacement scripture from God to give believing individuals the correct versions of the various religiously relevant historical events that had gotten distorted or lost over time. It says that there was only one macro religion being developed over time, and that the various messengers and peoples were to provide the learning lessons to be included in the final scripture for mankind. The stories are all a part of the lessons to mankind and of course they are repeated as they were intended to be crucial to the education of a believer.
Islam is a manmade religious concept. However in the Quran, "Islam" the word, means submission. It is just a disposition of all believers. To submit is simply a disposition of a devotee of God alone, whatever they call themselves, Jew, Christian, Muslim, Zoroastrian, Sabean or whatever. But the Quran is the culmination of the scripture delivery process. It is the finished version, reliable and fully intact: a restoration of the one overall message to the devotees submitting to God alone. This is according to the Quran, not the stories according to so called "Muslims".
Peace.
It grows by lies,many left it when they know the truth
Please upload the whole video, this professor is fascinating and its on to something.
He also has a great talk which you can find on Islamic Clarity channel on the canonization of the text. It's about 18min long.
@@theastronomer5800 thanks i will check that out
Thanks for analyzing Islam!
The miracle is that many muslims are convinced that the quran is what it purports to be, without even reading it.
Do you even know what you are saying? The Quran is not only read by Muslims but it is often memorized. It is recited daily around the world.
@@GrimSingmuf Shakespeare is read and memorized all around the world. Plus you can see Shakespeare performed on stage which you canât with the Quran.
@@GrimSingmuf yet the majority of Muslims do not even speak Arabic⊠just because you memorize something does not mean you know what it says.
@@Anonymous-sq6eo there's still 15% of muslims who have read it in a language they understand
@sk roy large-scale surveys, they surveyed something like 3 million people
Which isnt a lot compared to the extrapolations (they extrapolated that about 260 million muslims had actually read it) but we cant exactly survey 1.9 billion people (a number which is also based on a survey btw)
The language of Quran such a miracle that no one understands the book properly, not even the native Arab speakers. Wow đ
Itâs linguistic nature is so divine even the people of the prophets time who were his staunch enemies accepted Islam because the fact that everyone around him knew that he couldnât read or write made it impossible for him to write a book like that.
@@smartiesmmm195 Hahahah .. i feel for you dud ( wish you have hur in jannat).
@@mezbamaniac8645 so prove 1.9. Billion people wrong. Create a book like it. I mean, anus sharosh tried and failed miserably. Thatâs before he went to jail for arson fraud lol.
@@smartiesmmm195 Dud ! It is useless to argue to those who have already formed their mind set. but since you are pushing me too much so i have to. For your kind info "the prophet's time who were his staunch enemies were forced to become muslims ( advice: the stories you have been listening to since your child hood unfortunately not true) . Furthermore, lot more brilliants books and novels are being published everyday and will be published but where there are dumb guys like you would never be able to acknowledged them coz you have already formed your mind. but dud listen to me and please try to follow my advice keep watching video like this and open up your mind to accept new things. Thanks
The Quran is a miracle from Allah and its easy to understand for people who understand Arabic, only ignorant people who don't understand Arabic claim its difficult to understand
Dr. Nasser spent the first part of this too-short interview bloviating on how contemporary scholars don't tackle the miraculousness of anything. Then he got into something actually interesting and the interview abruptly ended. (Fatwah?) I googled the good doctor and he does have some CZcams videos, which are next on my list.
There are many versions of the Quran which Version is the real one.
I have 6 more clips with Dr. Shady Nasser on my Patreon.
@@MythVisionPodcast Are you planning on uploading them on CZcams at a later date?
@@buzzwordy9951 The standard narrative has holes bruh
@021 You are like spaming everyone, it seems..
Derek, wish you add those fun comments and visuals to your other videos too, so hilarious lol
Excellent interview, thanks Derek.
This is good,i hope we see more on this,and Shady Nasser đ
How to answer a question without attracting a fatwa! đŹ
Quran is a complete miracle because it needs dictionaries like hadith and tafsir to get its meaning. Quran is miracle because it is far more not organized compared to bedtime story books for kids.
It is miracle book wchch needs countless scholars who interpret it in countess ways.
The most miraculous part is when it finally is interpreted, and you get no extra knowledge.
@@goddessr3065 Yea, but it says on multiple times, that it is as clear and easy to understand as anything can be! đ€Ł
The Quran is a miracle because itâs clear to us now in this day and age and it lasted all the way till now. For example the words angel and devil are both used 88 times. Winter and summer are used the same amount of times. Rich is used twice more than poor. Hell and heaven are used the same amount of times. Life and death are used the same amount of times. Water and land are used proportionally to the amount of land to water ratio in the world.
You can look them up if you want.
Great talk gentleman!
Arabic 0erson here. The guy goes on a rant about memorization as a cultural issue. That's lies. You know scientifically memorization is very limited and you know the game of telephone is proven to be highly inaccurate. Even in the west, the history of vikings and Ragnar or Saxons or chronicles which were oral are now scientifically mythological and highly inaccurate. It's not a cultural issue. It is advancement issue. The west rejected oral tradition as inaccurate whether it's polytheism or Christian monotheism.
And as an Arab who have grown up with all BS and mythology treated as objective history yet seeing every two people having different objective histories, I know they're BS
The quaran is a miracle, because some people can memorize it?
This would only be a miracle if people could only memorize the quaran.
Your comment should be pinned at the top somehow
@@wizolufa1452
I have not said anything wise or profound.
I have only said what is obvious.
@@tdwebste you would think itâs obvious. Yet there are people on this video still claiming that is a miracle because multiple people memorized it
@@wizolufa1452
If multiple people memorised it and magically understood it...... that would be a miracle!
@@fatmaramadan6928
Are you saying understanding the quaran is a miracle?
Ibn warraq next please
Dr. Gerd Puin!
Derek, this is just my 2 cents. These inserted jump pics are totally unnecessary. It's fine if you're listening to the audio alone. But it's very distracting visually. It breaks the flow of the conversation and diminishes the seriousness of the subject matter. Maybe it's just me, but FWIW.
This is what we used to say;
If you don't read the Quran and still believe it, you are a Mu'min, (believer)
If you read the Quran, don't understand it but still believe it, you are a Muslim (In Islam)
If you read the Quran and understand it, you are an atheist.
The indians too had a tradition of passing all knowledge by rote. However the process is specific and practically ny one or rather almost everyone of a community could do it. The amount of rite is almost 100 times the size of quran
Indians oldest scriptures of the Rig-Veda are over 3000 years old
I was in Dubai then and Indians were celebrating their Devali festival. Our office held a Devali party for Cheering Hindu employees. So when one my British senior invited 5 Hindus on the stage to explain the historical significance of Devali, each told a completely different story. Lol.
The Quran is a compilation of bits and pieces from several different sources.
can you please enlighten us with your evidences?
@@SaidSaadouni Talmud Sanhedrin Mishnah 4:5 , infancy gospel of Thomas, targum Sheba, apocalypse of Abraham, cave of treasures even from Zoroastrian
Why would Derek "heart" this before he has examined the evidence? Because we all have bias and our examination is informed by it. It is truly difficult to be objective.
What does the Quran say it is? The opinion of the Quran is that it is a restorative replacement scripture from God to give believing individuals the correct versions of the various religiously relevant historical events that had gotten distorted or lost over time. It says that there was only one macro religion being developed over time, and that the various messengers and peoples were to provide the learning lessons to be included in the final scripture for mankind. The stories are all a part of the lessons to mankind and of course they are repeated as they were intended to be crucial to the education of a believer.
Islam is a manmade religious concept. However in the Quran, "Islam" the word, means submission. It is just a disposition of all believers. To submit is simply a disposition of a devotee of God alone, whatever they call themselves, Jew, Christian, Muslim, Zoroastrian, Sabean or whatever. But the Quran is the culmination of the scripture delivery process. It is the finished version, reliable and fully intact: a restoration of the one overall message to the devotees submitting to God alone. This is according to the Quran, not the stories according to so called "Muslims".
Peace.
@@paultarsus5844 lol so the torah is 10th century also ?
The torah was verbally passed down for thousands of years the oldest and PRESERVED written version of the torah was written 1250 that doesnt mean the torah was written in 1250 it estimated to be written around 3000-3500 years ago
This needed to be longer....
We do know for a fact that a sheep ate part of the Quran so the idea that the book is perfect with no modification is a JOKE.
âThe Verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed, and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it.â Sunan Ibn Majah 1944
Memorization is one of the worst ways to pass down information. That is a scientific FACT. That alone discredits the accuracy of the Quran.
Wasnât it a goat.
Good man. blessed are the sheep that eat!!! Hallelujah. Jesus is the way and truth and none other.
I wonder how that sheep tasted after eating the Quran. It must have been a Holy feast
@Qadir Ibn Israila ok can you recite the page of the Quran that the sheep ate please? The one about stoning women and breastfeeding adults
@Qadir Ibn Israila There is a reason why when the police have a choice between eye witness accounts and video evidence, they put more emphasis on the video evidence. if I tell you something by the time it gets to the 3rd person the information would have been modified one way or the other. Memorization is not a way to convey reliable information. Why are you arguing over a scientific fact bro?
You should read work of Maurice Bucaille in which he is discussing Miracles.
Also read book ( Embryology in Quran )written by Professor Keith Moore.
Great work
The outro sounds is a bit off too loud/sharp and electric imho
It depends on how you define miracle. Miracle doesnt mean that it's unexplainable but that the likelihood of all the factors contributing to it are seemingly unlikely to happen if it were to happen again. From the preservation to the literary text, the Quran is impressive and that's why scholars are so interested in it.
70 Septuagint writers
70 disciples of Jesus
70 memorizers of the Quran
All unnamed, all myths
jesus only had 12 deciples. and they are all in the bible. get your facts straight.
@@crusadeprince 'And after these things the Lord appointed also other seventy-two: and he sent them two and two before his face into every city and place whither he himself was to comeâ
Luke 10:1
Get your Bible read my friend
@@dust001 yes Jesus have 12 known deciples and he sent others like you mention 70 as well. everyone wants to follow him. and spred his word to teach pople. so whats the problem with it my friend. are you a muslim or athiest so i can have an idea who im talking to.
We have the name of the 12 Disciples.
Those 70 are followers, there are thousands of people that follows Jesus Christ, so you can't expect Bible to give account of all their names tho few among the followers were mentioned.
New Testament is an account that explain the life of our Lord JC (His Purpose on Earth đ, who He is), also explain some prophecies from Old Testament that relates to Him, impact of His teaching and how it started and those closed to Him that Spread His teaching.
So what's your pointđ€·đŸââïž
Nicely critiqued
great
Where is the full interview
How do you think Odissey began? Memorisation.
I see you have a fair amount of believers here that are trying hard to find something wrong. So I promise I wonât try hard, just easy.
Exmuslim here and no matter how many time I tried to make sence of and I did what the imams say. "Ohhh keep reading go deeper and deeeeper and deeeeeper etc" I come to the conclusion it's jacked up.
The challenge is, is there any book preserved for centuries by oral transmission. From Indonesia to Morocco, you do not find any difference, not in one letter.
Not all Quran are identical. The most popular Quran in Morocco is called warsh. Most popular Quran in the rest of the world is called hafs. There are hundreds of work differences as well as letters in the original Arabic between these two versions and there are other versions in existence as well. Search Quran Hafs vs Warsh and begin your learning journey.
70 Quran reciters is not strange because every companion of the prophet was a rĂ©citer to some degree. And in an army of thousands and thousands of companions itâs not impossible to count hundreds of Quran reciters . Reciting the Quran was not necessarily a profession but rather a common practice among all Muslims at the time.
....But what are they memorizing ?, That the sun sets in a muddy water? !
Can you name an ancient book which had also been transmitted orally till today and is still in memory of more than 1000 people? I am just curious.
If you memorize the preamble of a country, the constitution becomes a miracle.đ€
Allah: Indeed we have sent it as a miracle.
âąAbrogated verses
âąUthman burnt manuscripts
âąMissing ayahs
âąReciters lost in the battle of Badr
âąQurashi Dialect
âąSkeletal Text
âąSatanic verses
âąVerses eaten by Aisha's sheep
#Qurangate
Made up narrations you like. How about the ones that negate them?
If anybody wants to really know, there is an introductory lecture here on YT by Hamza Yusuf called âHow the Quran was revealed and compiled.â
Quran analogy story,
If a serious news channel that has evening news summary every day for the 23 years, then you collect all these 8,400 news broadcast as is, then collate them into one book.
Would one get a readable book?
Would it maintain the same style and content across the book?
This is the basic story of the Quran..
The Quran still present a serious challenge to be studied by serious life dedicated researchers.
It was revealed in 23 years, addressing the social issues at that time, an times since.
It came in parts and sections (aya /sura) on daily bases.
Quran effect on events and all aspects and need of humanity since it started to be revealed until these days are huge.
Human misgivings/nature of fear, greed, lust, mob behaviour, vengeance, prejudice, search for meaning of life, hope , the need to belong, the need to feel superior by dehumanising another group... has been used...in religion..... some more than others...
@021In a way religion helped in organising society.....what one shud and shud not do( morality).....as human society advanced it gave legitimacy to those in power....
It is the complex intermingling of politics and religion ( spiritual/ moral ) aspects.....that is troublesome.
The more political a religion is ...the more weight it provides to its leaders. The more misused the people can be.
Since he did not actually answer the question, does this mean you should ask someone else?
The "70 memorizers" sounds like an allegory to the Greek translation of the Old Testament, the Septuagint ("seventy" in Latin), or (ÎΔÏÎŹÏÏαÏη ÏÏÎœ) ÎÎČÎŽÎżÎŒÎźÎșÎżÎœÏα [metĂĄfrasÄ tĆn ebdomÄkonta] in Greek, meaning "the translation by the 70 (men)". Another attempt to imitate aspects of Greco-Judaic tradition, like Safa and Marwa, etc.
Read 'The Miraculous Language of the Qur'an Evidence of Divine Origin' by Bassam Saeh.
even tho all other societies/religions didnât value memory like the Middle East they ended up inventing something better than relying on memory itâs called digital media. So now the Quran, Bible and everything else in the world can now be âperfectly perseveredâ
minor tidbit, but his name is NaSIR, like Sir/Lady, not NaSEER
Oh just get to the point! If the Koran is a miracle as Muslims claim, what makes it such? Shakespeare's writings are a "miracle" by Muslims standards...đ
There were hundreds, if not thousands, of memorisers of the Quran at the prophet's time.
Later, In one battle, approx 70 died.
Hence the cause for concern to now compile the quran in one official book, bearing in mind that it was already fully written down and fully memorised.
It's a summarisation from the inscriptions of the Temple of Ptah. I'm a habibi.
So many words used to transmit so little information and not answering the question....
The miracle in memorisation is the number of people memorizing the Quran. There is no other text, as long as the Quran, memorized in the world today by millions of people ( Their is around 15 Millions people who memorises the Quran from cover to cover) and trough history. Christians and Jews were often challlenged by muslims to bring some who memorises the Bible or the Tanakh from Cover to Cover....not 15 millions just one person. Til now their is no christian or jew who have being able to stand the challenge.
Ok so consider this: the 70 ârecitersâ are not truly reciters - but a sect of Jews, the âTorah onlyâ Jews called Koraiters (the RECITERS). This means that it was not people who were trained to recite the Quran who died, but (70) fighters from the Jewish sect of Koraites (AKA the âPeople of the Bookâ, or those who rejected the oral Jewish tradition, Talmud). Those people, those ârecitersâ are those upon which the Quran was collected. What they recited was their teachings / interpretation of the Torah out of which the Quran as we know it today came to be. They are predecessors to Islam and THEY are the ones who made up the Quran. Completely without âthe prophet Muhammadâ who had not existed as a real historical person. This would resolve your problem âwhy would the Quran reciters go into the battleâ. They were not essentially people trained just to be the memorizes of the Quran (hafiz). They were simply the âPeople of the Book,â the Koraites, members of the alliance of the believers whose tradition was to recite their teachings based of the Bible (but in the Arabic language)
Was there really such sect of jews whose teachings are basically anti jew anti Christian?
And how do you get from there to the traditional Islam?
@@Napoleonic_S yes - of course !! Of course there were such Jews - who rejected the rabbinical tradition.
They could be compared to todayâs âQuran onlyâ Muslims. So just as today we have the âQuran only Muslimsâ who reject the Hadith - we have the Jews who rejected the Talmud (The Koraites). They Talmud oriented Jews are called the âKuffarsâ (because they âcoverâ the Torah with their own inventions, the Talmud). The Koraites were the reciters (of the Law, the Torah). They were the proto-Muslims. Islam did not exist yet in the 7th century, it developed later - although the QURAN existed - because the ârecitersâ invented it. The traditional Islam came to be because of the necessity to establish the original caliphate law - so it came to be with the schools of law/ Madhabs that came with the Hadith
@@MBiernat0711 that's a fascinating point! Definitely worth more investigation to see if it has legs.
@@thenun1846 I bought a bunch of books on the KoraitesâŠ. I also need to learn more about the heretical Christians who believed that what/who died on the cross was the APPARITION of Jesus, not Jesus himself. Todayâs Muslims totally miss the point -/ they think that the early âMuslimsâ rejected the crucifixtion all together- they did not. They just saw it through heretical Christian eyes. Well, that is besides the point, but Iâm starting to see the beginning of Islam âŠ.. anyway -- Koraites ⊠the Reciters âŠ. The QuranâŠ. DAMN right in front of our faces ⊠right in front ⊠HOW COULD ANYONE MISS IT?????
â@@MBiernat0711 The Hebrew text has no written punctuation, no written vowels and no written explanations how to keep the commandments. It is impossible to follow it without the Oral Torah the Karaites hate so much.
If divine revelation really is a thing, then it can only take place at the initial point of contact between the Deity and the human recipient. From that point forward as the message spreads outward it's rumour and hearsay (you have to take someone's word for it) and therefore easily corruptible. So why not avoid this problem, Allah, and reveal your "perfect" word to everyone (or at least every culture) simultaneously. Now that really would be a miracle. But just giving it to one guy in private looks kinda Shady to me.
Many singers memorize hundreds of song text, the songs are miracle đ
Why don't you ask one of them to memorise the Quran and see how far they get.
@@sidprice6214 it is easy to memorize when everyday 5 times a day you recite one of surah. I did it many years a go now I have forgoten almost all of them.
@@priyatmadi5433 Its only easy to memorise some of the smaller suras found in the 30th chapter. However its not so easy to memorise the other 29 chapters where the longer suras are found. For example did you memorise sura Yaseen as this is one of the regularly recited suras yet quite a bit longer than the ones in the 30th chapter? Did you memorise sura Bakara as this
Its one thing memorising a few small suras but quite a different matter memorising the entire Quran. Comparing memorising songs to memorising the Quran does not make sense.
@@sidprice6214 Do not you believe that many Muslims memorize the whole Quran? So what is the difference a lot of singers memorize a lot of songs
@@priyatmadi5433 It is true that many Muslims have memorised the Quran. However what you don't seem to grasp is the amount of effort and practise required to do so.
By comparison memorising songs is easy. Of course every kid can memorise sura Faatiha or sura Iglaas or Sura Naas but how many can memorise sura Bakarah just as easy as the previous ones. Its not that easy.
Songs are pretty short (ie don't have hundreds of words) and the sentences rhyme just as some of the verses of the shorter suras rhyme. However this is not the case with the larger suras which make up the majority of the Quran. Reading and pronouncing some of the words are difficult let alone trying to memorise them. Try memorising sura Ali-Imraan for 1 month and tell me how far you got. Chances are you'll be lucky if you were able to memorise a dozen pages.
The name gives it away shady. gonna give shady answers
He's the real slim shady!
It means "seeker" in Arabic. You came to defend the Arabic Quran, and make fun of an Arabic name. Your cope has you looking foolish.
Do keep in mind that Dr. Nasser is a Harvard scholar and has published some very important books on the canonization of the Quran, as well as numerous interesting research papers...
@@theastronomer5800did something come from nothing explain pls. Not mocking you want to learn
drop the video
Nice strawman! Make an argument yourself
Refute the argument, and claim victory
What an oddly abrupt end to the video
Yes, there are 6 more clips with him dealing with various issues. The videos are topic related.
I will admit if ancient scriptures are miracles if their content applicable to far future and still relevant to whoever read it on different time period and have no logical fallacy
You got a guy name Shady?, LMAO! I love this kid.
I find it interesting that Muslims point to people memorising the Qur'an as a miracle whereas one would have thought the greater miracle was an angel reciting a book to some rando in a cave over 20 odd years.
I think most of the comments here are quite negative and come from people that have never read the book even in their own language. The negative Nellyâs literally do not know what they are talking about, but just express group solidarity and knee-jerk reactions.
The point has utterly been missed. It's not special that it "can be" memorized (any book obviously can be memorized) it's the fact that it "HAS been" memorized to such a large extent amongst potentially millions of individuals spanning centuries in a manner which is unparalleled in human history.
In what way has that done any good? Are Islamic countries the leaders in science, technology, medicine, commerce, art or anything else in recent memory? You are right. We missed the point. Maybe, you can enlighten us. What is the point of forcing kids to memorize the Qur'an? What good has it done for the Islamic societies?
Dr. Timothy Winter, Andreas Tzortzis, or Hamza Yusuf may wish to differ with some of the points raised in this interview.
They probably mean that it is a miracle that it is labelled a religious book. Light banter.
The Quran is much a miracle as water is dry
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Was there any book memorised by millions around the world across ethnicity, geography, timeline...? No other book were taken seriously to the point of memorising it....not even the bible.
They can memorize the text because it has already been written.
The question is whether the Quran was written or memorized first.
Thanks God for Islam and the Quran â€â€â€â€â€â€â€â€â€â€â€â€â€â€â€â€â€â€
@ 11:33 What is is Shady saying is unfortunately incorrect, we know all or most of these names.
Shady has been exposed by many Daâis, not even knowledgeable people, just Daâis which is ironic coming from a Harvard âprofessorâ
@@GoPrayDontDelay Yes, I am surprised with his statements, for this particular one, I immediately recalled from my memory at least 10 names of Sahaba muirtutred in Yamamah battle!
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To reveal a book that is easily memorized which contains a high level of eloquence and relevant content is the miracle. If anybody can be taught to memorize other religious texts then why is it not happening at the scale of thr quran ?
âYou can teach a kid anythingâ compare the Quran to a song or bible. Where literally no person in the history of the world has memorized the bible. LOL.
The Quran is composted in a style that actually makes it easy to memorize, based on pre-Islamic poetry. The Bible is not written in a style that is easy to memorize. This is why people often recite poems, but have book readings :)
@@theastronomer5800 exactly! Even the most famous poets of that time couldnât understand how an illiterate man could write such a book. Thatâs why the Quran challenges the people to create something like it. Because no human can as the Quran is not the words of Muhammad, (pbuh) but God himself revealed through Angel Gabriel.
Ask him why his prophet walked around wearing clothing covered with seaman...
It's a miracle how the prophet would have memorize them unchronologically as presented in the book while receiving them chronologically throughout the last 24 years of his life.
It's a miracle that the book claimed as the most clear and concise book yet it left many holes and blanks in the narrations.
But this prophet often forgot what he said before, so there are many contradiction in this quran, e.g. what was created first? the Earth or the stars? So where is this miracle?
đŻ is a miracle.
If these are completely personal, subjective claims then why does the Quran advance them as proof of its authenticity?
First we should understand that god doesn't sit and wrighting books for best sellers purpose đđđ
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the 70 initial apostles in christianity fits that 70 pattern too
Children who memorize the Quran do so much more effective than adults and even then must refer to a text to do so. A duly rigorous exercise, that wouldnât have been available to 7th century adult men who were scattered throughout Arabia. Not impossible, highly improbably and most likely did not occur
You will not find Muslims say something odd things about Quran. It's true there are thousands of people in a single Muslim country can recite the whole Quran by heart. It's a very old tradition regarding Quran. There are more people in a south Asian country than the whole middle east who can recite whole Quran by heart. But that does not mean it's devine or error less. Muslim are not in a condition to face reality.
It is a Miracle that the Quran and the Gospel of Mary say YESHUA spoke in the Cribb (to say his mum wasn't an adulterous) and That YESHUA made a bird out of clay then brought it to life and that the Angel Gabriel meet them in a Cave đ Miracles happen every so often đ€
Which quran there are so many different variations
people memorizing a book means people are a miracle not the book
teachers would beat us up in school to memorize it
and arabic wasn't even my first language
Yikes. What you say is true, people used to memorize the Iliad and the Odyssey, which are longer than the Quran. Pre-Islamic Arabs would memorize very long poems also which they recited while traveling with their caravans. Also, people can memorize (and play) very long pieces of classical music. The human mind is there miracle :)
I see kind of presentism in his question why you send 70 reciters to the battlefield. he thinks that the reciters had a specific statute in early Muslim society right after the death of the prophet peace be upon him. The answer is NO, they were part of the society and went to war as the rest of the army. For you Derek, the Number 7 and 70 in Arabic means some time ALOT (used to mean a big number without pointing to exact number 70 or 7), so the number 70 here has nothing to have with the 70 translators of the Septuagint. In addition, the interpretation Shady is trying to Give to QARI ( Reciter) looks very bizzar and unusual in islamic tradition. Again, your guest is assuming that the Reciters had a special statute that make them protected from going to war. Th simple explanation is either, the prophet or aboubakr, believe that the Quran is preserved by Allah, and the reciters were only the mean through whome Allah preserved the Quran. This is the best explanation of his doubt about the fact that receiters were sent to the battle. You see you dont need to be a "Harvard Professor" to understand the history
This is the FIRST decent Muslim speaker Iâve heard after Shabbir ally
interesting that you mentioned the 70 in the quran - 70 is also mentioned in the bible - Ezekiel 8:11 : And there stood before them 70 men of the ancients of the house of Israel, and in the midst of them stood Jaazaniah...............also in jewish literature - the midrash = â70 facesâ of the Torah: The midrash...................the 3 abrahamic religions are all connected - they all worship the same god........
Tsunami of ex Muslims on the net and in the world
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A lot of Muslims say they believe Mohammad because they know he had the same message as every other prophet. I hope you test that idea.
@021 I believe the scriptures as they are. That the patriarchs were given promises, that Moses was given the law and more promises, and that all the prophets were only sent to Israel. And then King David was given promises, and more promises were revealed through other prophets. And all the promises revealed more and more detail about the coming of Jesus, who would be take away the sins of the world, become King forever, and give his people a new heart and a new spirit. And Jesus himself confirmed that he was that saviour, the Son of God, the fulfillment of all that was promised since the beginning. That he died and rose again. And that Jesus was the very first person from God to tell anyone about judgment day, paradise or hell.
And I believe that the stories and the prophecies and the rituals in all the Jewish Bible are full of foreshadowing of all of this.
I also believe Mohammad put his own words into the mouths of the people who came before him. And that is the only reason why Muslims think they know what the earlier prophets said.
@021 yes Jesus was a prophet, and is a king, and a high priest. Deuteronomy 18:18 and 34:10 describe a future prophet who does many wonders like Moses did. This was Jesus. He himself said that Moses wrote about him. The title prophet just designates that a person reveals prophecies, which Jesus certainly did.
Most Muslims seem to believe that every nation had a prophet sent to them. You don't?
The Torah says that Abraham wished for Ishmael to recieve the special blessing and covenant that was promised to his descendants. God said he would bless Ishmael, but his special covenant was only to Isaacs line. And an angel prophesied that Ishmaels descendants would always be people of hostility against the world. This is written in Genesis 16 and 17. I don't know of any tradition that said Isaac was a prophet until Islam.
The Angel of the Lord in Genesis 16 is actually the same as who spoke to Moses in the burning bush in Exodus 3. I think this angel (ie messenger) was actually Jesus, before his incarnation.
@021 You say that is who the prophets were and that's what the prophets did. But my point was that needs to be tested. Why do you believe that? Is there any evidence of it I don't know about?
As far as I can tell there is no other investigation into it, there is no corroboration with previous scriptures or traditions. It just comes out of thin air in the 7th century. Mohammad reimagining respected figures in his own image, saying the same words Mohammad was saying, all to give Mohammad's own narrative more clout.
If there is more to it then by all means tell me.
Also, the idea that Abraham visited the Arabian peninsula, that he built the Kabaa. Did anyone in the world say that before Mohammad did? Again it looks like Mohammad was reimagining people in his own image, integrating them into his own narrative.
I don't think it is a coincidence that Joseph Smith, the LDS prophet, said that America was a special land that many prophets visited, or that he also invented details about Abrahams life to support his own narrative. And he also bestowed upon himself unique privileges about he was permitted to marry. And there are more similarities, but the main ones as I see it: inventing details about the past prophets, and about the land he was native to.
As to the idea God had to send prophets to every country, then why did Israel get so many prophets? And who has ever been identified as a monotheistic prophet anywhere outside the middle east? What traditions remain of recitations of such prophets anywhere? Is there anything at all?
I think this is wrapped up in the idea that all prophets had the same thing to say to everyone. I expect you believe not every nation got the message at the same time. So that doesn't seem the most just and fair approach, that generations of Arabs would go without knowledge while Israel is getting many many prophets. As it happened Israel was special, because they were supposed to lead the rest of the world toward the knowledge of God. Is that really more unjust than the idea that Arabs didn't receive their prophet until 2000 years after Moses? Really they probably received the gospel only 1500 years after Moses, through Jesus' disciples.
What the Torah says is that Israel was supposed to have the special relationship with God, and Israel would become the light to the world. All nations knowing the truth and the power and wisdom of God through Israel. Now this didn't happen by Israel keeping their law and covenant. But it did happen through Jesus the King of Israel, who is the light of the world, who has revealed the knowledge and power and wisdom of God. And Jesus sent his disciples to all the world. And we are going to all the world. Although some countries have criminalized us preaching and kill or imprison people who come to believe the gospel of Jesus.
@021 I will post about Moses and Jesus later today
Lets start with the scripture
Deuteronomy 18
The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your *brothers* You must listen to him. For this is what you asked of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, âLet us not hear the voice of the Lord our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.â
The Lord said to me: âWhat they say is good. I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their *brothers,* and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet *speaks in my name.*
Deuteronomy 34
Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord *knew face to face,* who did all those *signs and wonders* the Lord sent him to do in Egypt-to Pharaoh and to all his officials and to his whole land. For no one has ever *shown the mighty power or performed the awesome deeds* that Moses did in the sight of all Israel.
If you read it in Hebrew it does literally say "among you brothers". Whenever the Torah talks about their brother - it means a brother Israelite, it is the same word in Hebrew every time. Look at these examples where it obviously doesn't mean Ishmaelites. If you want to fact check me on this Biblehub is a good website.
Numbers 32:6
Moses said to the Gadites and Reubenites, âShould your *brothers* go to war while you sit here?
Deuteronomy 3:19-20
Your wives, your children and your livestock (I know you have much livestock) may stay in the towns I have given you, until the Lord gives rest to your *brothers* as he has to you, and they too have taken over the land that the Lord your God is giving them across the Jordan
Deuteronomy 10:9
That is why the Levites have no share or inheritance among their *brothers;* the Lord is their inheritance, as the Lord your God told them.
Deuteronomy 17:15
be sure to appoint over you a king the Lord your God chooses. He must be from among your *brothers*. Do not place a foreigner over you, one who is not a *brother*
Deuteronomy 17:20
and not consider himself better than his *brothers* and turn from the law to the right or to the left. Then he and his descendants will reign a long time over his kingdom in Israel
I will detail more of the specific parallels between Moses and Jesus, but just on these prophecies - as far as I know Mohammad did not do mighty miracles, at least the Quran says:
"Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?" But thou art truly a warner, and to every people a guide." Surah 15:7-8
And I will explain more about Moses and Jesus knowing God face to face, but just for now, Mohammad did not speak to God face to face. He only spoke to an angel. (And Jesus did say some angels are of the devil - that is whole different thing)