The Most Powerful DIY NAS I've built (ft. LattePanda SIGMA)
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- čas přidán 13. 06. 2024
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Timestamps
00:00 Intro
01:33 Brilliant.org
02:50 Overview and specs
04:54 RAM and In-Band ECC
06:56 Turning Sigma into a NAS
08:21 Software setup
10:49 Jellyfin & Video transcoding
12:05 Enabling In-Band ECC on Linux
13:28 Performance impact of In-Band ECC
14:23 Thunderbolt networking
15:44 Power consumption
18:02 Price and competition
21:03 Outro - Věda a technologie
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Buy LattePanda Sigma: www.dfrobot.com/product-2671.html?tracking=65279afa9679e
A ".org" selling a subscription service? Should've been a ".com"....
I have a home server for storing media and photos. 1 x 16tb HDD raid 1 with backup 4 x 4tb ssd raid 0 and 4 x 22 tb hdd raid 5 for storage. Basically its a 82TB google drive.
I also been buying more and more smart devices ( smart light bulbs, google chrome cast, smart plugs , cameras , ring , thermometer , google home) and kinda notice that internet is slower, the range and reception is weaker.
My questions are
1. Are my smart devices slowing down my internet / interfering the range?
2. Should I get a wifi extender or an extra router for better range and connection?
3. Should I have a separate server for my smart devices or should I use the same home server ?
4. If you have a server for storage and more and more smart devices , how would you set it up?
I would prefer the easiest and most cost-effective solution.
Thx
To people who didn’t like the overused slow focus effect in this video - you’ve been heard! 😅 Camera slider is in the mail.
Thanks it hurts my eyes :)
I don't normally comment but my god - it was distracting I came down here to ask you to stop. ❤
I thought it was fine and took nothing from the content but props to you for being empathetic
Thank you! You are the best!
I didn't even notice at first, and it didn't bother me. I consider it part of your artistic freedom either way.
It'd be so cool if Raspberry Pi could sell the RP1 as a separate product now that it's just PCIe - could be cool to have a true Raspberry Pi hacked into a board like the Sigma... or any other X86 or Arm machine with PCIe!
I would really like to tinker with PCIe interfaces - so could be super cool with off the shelf "cheap" hw. My end goal would however be an fpga board on a PCIe interface where the CPU is interrupted by fpga over PCIe 🤓
Like a true co-processor?
Make an Rpi 1 and put it inside the rpi 5
Your Raspi obsession gets weird in times of a Rpi5 which is so far from what the Rpi has been and what it‘s sold to be.
No offense, still watch and like your stuff.
Clones are already there with some caveats, but realistically there isn't a good reason to go this route unless your only priority is power usage. A recycled desktop in won't take more space than the NUC plus it's external array and will be more flexible in every way.
I like your noise comparison. A lot more useful than a decibel measurement for a casual viewer.
blurry fade ins... That's a choice.
Oof, I was captivated by the vid until the price slapped me! Naaah sticking to 11/12/13 NUCs personally :P
really appreciate the mouse clicks as reference for noise. Very clever way to actually give us context.
I think the framework mainboard is also a very interesting option. Ram is upgradable and it’s powerful with 4 Thunderbolt ports and even expansion cards. It’s also efficient and fully compatible with Linux
An m.2 enclosure would be a cool video! I wish there were streamlined way to connect a single PCIE card over m.2 with power supplied by thunderbolt so it could be run off a laptop with no additional power.
Your drive detection issue is 100% thunderbolt. I would've used a m.2 to SATA adapter since direct PCIe is just the better overall spec
Consistently great content, thank you Wolfgang. You're my favorite NAS DIY CZcamsr. I would give the Zima Cube a look if you can get your hands on one, it's a NAS solution, but it looks really interesting when looking at the connectivity options for their custom motherboard design. They have an N100 and I5-1260P models. Currently on kickstarter, but I know they have shipped working prototypes and close to production ready models to some CZcamsrs for testing. There is a good chance they'd ship you a model if you reached out. Would make for really interesting content.
The price-to-performance ratio just isn't there to make this a recommended buy.
Now fix the power button in the das with the built in arduino. I wanna see a really hacky fix :D
Thanks for the vid!! I've been running Unraid like this for a few years now and it's been no issue at all, I only use unraid for NAS purposes and nothing else so I don't have any issues.
No auto restart on power outage is a deal breaker for me. And $600+ for a NAS board looks like overkill.
100% overkill, in fact you can buy a decent factory NAS for 600+ what he paid for the case, raid board and so on. The only thing going for it is that it's pretty small and has m.2 slots.
For those people that wanna save a huge buck, buy a 10 year old matx PC, ddr4 one if you can, find sleek cooler and a smallest case that can fit 4 to 8 3.5 drives. You can now fill it with any kind of drives, add cooling and so on. One thing you might want to buy is a network card, cause not all of them support 1gbps speeds over rj45 and you might want wifi.
8:25 seems like a nice use case for uC, simple code, delay 60sec, press button on DAS and go to sleep or while 1=1 { delay 10}.
Would love to see 3x LattePanda Thunderbolt ring network cluster + Ceph. Probably not C-State friendly, but probably a pretty cool Proxmox cluster none the less.
I'm having similar thunderbolt issues on startup with an Intel NUC and Yottamaster Thunderbolt DAS and Proxmox. I've been thinking it's the power-on sequence, or maybe it's just a delay after boot. Either way, eventually the drives become visible after much fiddling, and are stable until next power cycle. An UPS helps make that a pretty rare occasion.
Do we know if recent ryzen mini PCs are getting better at managing low power consumption when idling ? It would be interesting testing them as, and correct me if I'm wrong, those 760M and 780M iGPU can do AV1 encoding and not only decoding !
Wolfgang I am been watching your channel for a while and is one of my favourites, I was wondering if you can speak a little bit in one of your future videos about your router and switch you use, or how it integrates with your home network and your lab setup, and maybe the security of a home server in general. You are amazing mate. Thank you for puting so much work into your videos
Thank you for your in depth video. You gave a very fair and balanced review of the Latte board that was informative. If the Arduino had actual integration in the main CPU somehow, at least being able to interface with the GPIO without having to flash the ESP every time, which is what I assume you have to do in this case, it would be more attractive. Mini PCs seem like the way to go right now though since I am interested in a good performance portable NAS.
what i've been wanting, for a long long time, is something like an sbc with a picmg edge connector or pcie/104. it's a perfect size and list of capabilities.
I think the advantage of LattePanda is the expansion especially the dual M.2 with full x4 lanes combined with low idle power. As you were able to use a ASMedia expansion card and make this into a viable media server as well as having dual ethernet, M.2 storage and more. A desktop PC will have plenty of SATA and PCIe port, great performance but the idle and load power draw will be higher. Mini PC are very efficient and sometimes also powerful, but come at the cost of expansion and require some workarounds for adding storage drives. I hope TopTon or other Chinese will make a similar board to their N5105 DIY NAS with N100 or 12th gen mobile CPU as the N5105 quad core is not that fast compared to similar options.
One of the n100 router / firewall mini pc looks interesting for this. Doesnt have the sata ports but has the 4 2.5gb ethernet, and 2 m.2 slots from the picture (plus a mini pcie i think, might be m sata). So you could put an m.2 to sata card in one of the m.2 slots
Can't the GPIO pins of the LattePanda be connected with the power button of the DAS enclosure and start the DAS?
Couldn´t the Framework Motherboard be an alternative to the Lattepanda Sigma?
Its cool for DIY projects, but i think it has not enough PCIe connectivity as a homeserver for my usecase.
The lattepanda has one 4x PCIe 4.0 M.2 and one 4x PCIe 3.0 M.2 + 1x PCIe 3.0 M.2 E Key
The 13 inch Framework (1340P) boards only have one 4x PCIe 4.0 M.2
The Framework 16 Motherboard will likely be more interesting for those sort of project. Besides having two Nvme M.2 slots, there is the PCIe interface for the back modules. With the three official confirmed back modules using it being the GPU module and more interesting for a NAS/home server, the back module with two more NVMe M.2 slots and the empty one with exposed "GPIOs" for DIY projects. We will need to see as much piwer can go through the PCIe bridge bur I guess we could have more than two SATA drives data bandwitch wise. And even without that, like with the Framework 13, we can boot from one of the USB SSD modules, so we should at least run UNRAID or TrueNAS from an USB SSD module (or a USB stick for UNRAID) and have 4 NVMe SSDs for the Raid with just the official modules. And with a port reserved for the USB4 power input port, there would be 4 USB-C left for USB, 2.5GB ethernet port and video port modules.
@@18earendildid framework release a price for the 16 inch mainboard? Im thinking its gonna cost much more than the 13 inch one.
For me, homelabbing is also about having good price to performance :)
if you wanted to solve the DAS power up problem, you could always use one of the Arduino outputs from the latte to toggle the power switch contacts after power is restored. You’d want to do this through a small relay to keep the grounds isolated.
If you wanted to go for the DIY look, you could always use a Framework laptop motherboard!
I was going down a DAS road until I saw this and changed my mind based on your advice.
Very interesting video for the idle power consumption part.
I'd love to have this latte panda compared to the lastest 13600h Erying ITX motherboard which is a little more than half the price with the black friday.
My Amazon cart still has a 12v Y-Adapter in it I wanted to buy for a similar project. Thought that's funny how you also did it that way
I run this DAS with UnRaid with an HP 600 G3 SFF. Internal Drive is for parity and all data drives in the DAS. I’ve found as long as you boot up the Das prior to booting up the PC i haven’t had any problems with drive recognition. Just a random data point.
Love your videos Wolfgang :D Always put a smile on my face!
I love your wallpaper, where can I find it?!
Also, super cool video as always! Have a good one!
When an old desktop will generally outperform this while housing the same number or more drives while being expandable and (let's be real here) only add a couple hundred watts, these still make very little sense. It also means you don't need thunderbolt. The icing is being able to run just and anything you might need.
Agree with everything apart from performance - i5-1340p outperforms even something like i9-9900KS, which retailed at $513. 12th gen was a really big leap for Intel
@@WolfgangsChannel I just can't figure out a mini home server usecase that'll require that level of CPU performance. I've got a bunch of services running on mine - including a Microsoft Exchange mail server that I admittedly only use for testing - and the thing idles at 2-3% CPU usage at most despite being a much weaker R5 3600. Unless you do lots and lots of video encoding you're going to run out of RAM long before you run out of CPU.
@orbatos Are you looking at old dual-socket workstation with tons of GPUs or how do you get of 'a couple hundred watts' idle power? It's a very rare desktop that'll idle beyond double digit power.
Minisforum just released a 13900H with dual 10G SFP+, dual 2.5G, dual usb4, 3 M.2 and 1 half height PCIE miniPC, with a much practical price
Thank you for the review of LattePanda Sigma
Can you please do a video on your Home Assistant setup? I’m very curious how you are measuring energy usage.
The TerraMaster F4-212 is coming out soon
The Realtek 1619B SoC and 2GB RAM is rough...
Maybe not best for any tasks other than serving data, use something else for processing. Cheap though
I've once done the calculation on the pico PSU with the sata power splitter and that cable is definitely not rated to run 5/6 drives. In my case I broke out the 24pin side to 2 molex cables which handle 5 drives
Probably not. I’ve been running 4 HDDs on it without any issues though. Let me know how you added two Molex cables though, I’d be interested in the pinout
Thanks for the video. Can you post links to the nvme extender and nvme to SATA adapter that you used in the video? Thanks!
I wonder how much the passthrough situation and unraid on top of proxmox impacts the transcoding performance, I'd imagine at least a little
I wish someone made a 2.5" hard drive bay with power that didn't use a USB or TB connection. So we could set up exactly what you showed, but in a tidy enclosure. I'm glad you tested thunderbolt with unraid, I was about to buy a OWC 2.5" TB enclosure. You saved me some headache.
I'm pretty sure Icydock has a product like that in a 2x5.25" size
@@meco Not with power.
@@fwiler what exactly do you mean by that bc the ExpressCage MB038SP-B for example has two sata power connectors for 8x 2.5 ssd's
I was thinking more of a fully integrated PSU, just connect it to the mains and that’s it. That and an oculink port to connect to the PC
I’m interested but $600….?🙀🙀🙀
Love the features…that price is hard to take
Omg that intro, I noped right out of this video.
Thank you as always
@Wolfgang On your main home sever, what OS are you currently using?
NixOS
Were you going to make a video about the ASRock N100 motherboard?
It escalated a little bit, and now I think i'll have to make a big video about Alder Lake in general
@@WolfgangsChannel I'm looking forward to the video! I have been considering purchasing the ASRock N100DC-ITX.
@@WolfgangsChannel Intriguing words 🙃🙃 That would be really awesome if you make a video about the N100 ITX board!!!
@@cno1009what are you planning to do with it?
my head hurts from all the blurry closeups
So great to see this video today! I wanted to do something similiar, but now I can save some money, because of your honest opinion and the alternatives you included. Thank you very much Wolfgang!
Was this a Brazilian song in the begining?
From my findings the shellyplug is not so reliable on measuring power usage, it's also slow to update. Don't you have anything else like a BlitzWolf BW-SHP15?
It’s been pretty reliable for me. I have an old school power meter with an LCD and the readings are within a margin of error
I disagree with unraid on a VM being a bad idea.
As far as hypervisors go, unRAID is very basic. If you intend to use it only as a storage/docker machine, running it in a VM is a great idea.
17:23
PicoPSU is redundant here, you could power up those hard drives using just 12V from the power supply splitter. This will result in better power consumption as well as there's no switching.
HDDs also need 5V
If you need to turn it on always, then just write a script for the Arduino part and connect it up, so it will start when the Arduino tells it so.
That's the big question - connect it up how?
Transistor, Mosfet or relais if you're scared. There's probably a lot of possibilities. Maybe even some passive electronics on the switch itself which act like a switch press. Even just a capacitor might be enough.
@@WolfgangsChannel maybe like @TheManfet said, try to Solder or so... Need to get me this DAS case too to diagnose how to do this the best way.
You probably would have had an easier time just running a TerraMaster NAS and replace the TM USB stick with your Unraid stick.
is the asmedia asm1166 card just plug and play? do i need to do any software tinkering?
10gb SFP+ optical adapters are pretty cheap, and a 300ft optical cable is pretty cheap too. I have them run all over my house because they are so cheap.
Thanks Brilliant for patrocinios this video 😊
You got a like for the intro alone
What makes you prefer Unraid over TrueNAS Scale for example?
Easier container management, the ability to mix and match drives and add drives to an array after the fact, the ability to spin down individual drives when not in use, easier and more power effiicent 'caching' workflow which lets you cache the most recent files on the SSDs and let HDDs sleep
@@WolfgangsChannel thank your for your answer. I am currently torn between these 2 systems so thats very useful.
Is there a video coming about how you setup unraid for your needs?
@@WolfgangsChannel Biggest thing is container management and ability to add more drives. But I do love the simplicity of TruenNAS scale over Unraid and the UI. Each has its pros and cons I guess.
Interesting...hear the conclusion.
after the first 10 seconds i wonder if you are okay /s
Word of warning to anyone wanting to try this...
DO NOT USE the ASM1166 SATA controller. Only the JMB585 works fully.
I setup UNRAID with the ASM1166 and whilst everything *appears* to work, when the drives spin down and subsequently back up, you'll get corruption on the array. Mine did this with 2 1166 cards and was only resolved by swapping to the JMB585. Now, it's rock solid stable. It moves power states and never corrupts the array.
Do you have any sources on the issue? CZcams won't let you post web links, but posting search terms may work. By searching for "ASM1166 corruption", I didn't find anything.
It’s been the exact opposite for me 🤔
Mouse Clicks for reference are such a great idea!
Or maybe a terrible, since now everyone wants different mice for reference... Logitech M500 please ;)
It's been quite a while use in mech keyboard community
It'd be nice to see vendors using AMP Enterprise ready CPU's - to allow remote KVM. Like some of the Intel NUC's have.
OK so the tldr is that a synology nas still is the best option and considering the time involved hacking around costs 4x as much on my hourly rate as the premium the synology would cost me, the synology is a no-brainer. Of course if all you ever wanted to do in your life is build a custom nas by all means, but if you just want a nas that works out of the box the synology is pretty unbeatable.
Can’t argue with that!
Just like gaming consoles are objectively the best choice for most people compared to a gaming PC. As people who like to build stuff and tinker with hardware, we're in the minority
@@WolfgangsChannel I hear you. Though I would say this: building a gaming PC gives you multiple times the console's power, building a diy nas probably won't do that unless you are planning on turning it into a kubernetes cluster but then what you are building isn't a NAS at that point.
For example the synology I bought recently has a ryzen CPU pretty powerful, consumes very little power(on top of what the drives do) 8 bays and can run docker and has 32GB or RAM and costed me around 900 pounds. And what I absolutely love about it is the quality software. I have been using synology DSM NAS units for over 6 years now and never once an update broke the system for me. It is solid and the support is amazing(I had a ticket once about something that wasn't in the release about app port changes, very responsive support), oh yes and meaningful error messages/release notes, it integrates with your ups runs any VPN service you could possibly want, what else do I want? :D
Oh and of course I have a PC I built because the level of performance and quiet, I consider acceptable does not exist in a pre-build. My PC is completely quiet and packs a punch and leaves any console behind by a wide margin.
For enthusiasts, the increase in performance/graphical quality on a PC when compared to a console can be worth it. But it comes at its own price - buggy drivers, OS updates, hardware/software issues, and so on. Most people would probably not be able to tell a difference, but will definitely notice an overall 'smoother' experience on a console.
Your PC can also probably do other things than just "gaming". Similarly, a DIY home server/NAS can be used to host VMs with device passthrough, transcode media, and do a lot of other things. You also get access to hardware video transcoding, 2.5 GbE (Synology NASes still come with 1GbE by default, with an optional proprietary 10GbE module), Thunderbolt and a more extendable platform that doesn't limit you to a certain number of bays (sure, Synology has their 'extension units', but it's not quite the same). For 900 pounds, you can build a very capable machine that would be as power efficient as a pre-built NAS, and deliver way more performance and upgradability.
Just like a self-built gaming PC, a self-built NAS also comes with its own drawbacks - you have to pick and choose the right hardware, install and configure the software, and deal with any of the issues in the process.
At the same time, if you don't need any of the benefits of a self-built NAS, prefer a device that just works out of the box, and if you're fine with the performance and functionality - Synology is a no brainer. Just like a person who only wants to game would probably not be swayed by the "but you can also do other things on a PC!" arguments.
As a sidenote - this video was never meant as a "build your own NAS" tutorial, and more of an "impractical hacking around" session. If you watched the "price and competition" section, you probably also know that I don't actually recommend the device for personal use. If you want to see a more realistic NAS build that I did recently, check out this video: czcams.com/video/vjDoQA4C22c/video.html
@@WolfgangsChannel oh never misunderstand my comment. It is not bashing the video in any way, we are just having an interesting conversation. Btw. my synology nas has 4 GbE interfaces with link aggregation. In my case the problem will always be the switch and the hard drives would never saturate even 2 Gbs. Hence I only have 2 interfaces bonded.
I would buy a good quality 5-8 bay NAS case for the LattePanda SIGMA.
Given the price, I wonder if a mini-ITX build might be better given the ability to expand the RAM at a later date
i didn't know this was a Wolfgang video before clicking, but i knew on the intro before your face showed up ^°^
A person could even remove the top on one of those much cheaper mini PC's to expose the M.2 ports, install an M.2 to SATA card and 3D print a case that the mini PC sits in with room for several hard drives. That would be fun to try.
All gus from reddit ZFS worn me to use controller different form lsi HBA. What is your experiences with adm1186 controller?
thanks, you pratically validated what i'm builing right now, just i'll use a geekom A5 instead of lattepanda sigma that makes me save some money
I think that there are a lot better options for almost 700 dollars for the 32GB RAM, 500GB SSD, WiFi 6E version. Even the base model at 579 is an extremely steep price compared to other options for around the same price. You could almost build out an entire amateur home network minus HDD of course for the same price of their top trim.
For me it would be a Beelink or similar, whereby it could be used as a Proxmox host.
I think so too
That DAS power on sounds like needing a Swithbot and an automation solution.
I immediately thought about Switchbot too, but there's gotta be a better way :(
I would definitely go for the Ryzen.
i have the most important question, how much did all of this cost? Also the intel arc comes with av1 encoding, does this come with that?
N100 nas board 4x2.5gbps + jonsbo n2 or n100 minipc 2x2.5gbps + usb c DAS ? I donno what to decide to make my first nas. I will use 4 seagate exos drives
I thought the brazilian funk at the beginning was an yt ad 😂😂😂
Acho engraçado que esse tipo de funk tá fazendo sucesso na gringa
Great video.
How come this has 2x2.5 Gb NICs, but almost none Synology has that in offer?!
I diy'd my synology using tinypill and it runs on an old ryzen 4600g. 3x 10TB WD gold and 2x 128GB running DSM and dual 2.5gbe. Quite fast.
the edit at the start of the vid 😂
humm brazilian funk? dope KKKKKK AGORA SIM !
JAJAJAJA COME TO BRAZIL
@@WolfgangsChannelBrazilians don't say "jajaja"
How many Operating systems can i run at the same time with this? I am a security researcher and i would like to run Proxmox at it, with for example: Security Onion distro, RockyLinux, Kali Purple, Windows 10 / 11. Windows server w/ AD for tests, Win 11, 10 for malware tests, Remnux + containers, Suricata / Snort, Elastik ELK /Wazuh, etc. I might add or change stuff in the future but would be something like that. Would it run all at the same time100% smooth? Id buy the sigma 32 GB RAM versioN (64 woud be perect but ive read cant add till 64)
Running 24/7 whole year.
Unless you need GPIO or eDP, you’d be better off with an Intel NUC 13 Pro or another comparable mini PC. Same CPU but way cheaper.
It should be able to handle multiple VMs, though I didn’t exactly test to see how many it can run at the same time. That being said, the virtualization overhead is very small these days, so I think you’ll be fine with an i5-1340p. Get a beefier AMD 7xxx miniPC if you want to be on a safe side
You can put an ups for 50€ in front. The most power losts are just seconds.
I ask, nay I DEMAND a Wolfgang remix channel. Jeez that intro was good why'd it have to eeeeeeeeeend
Oh the music is not mine 😁
@@WolfgangsChannelWhile it may be so, the editing was delicious
@Wolfgang, please review Minisforum's ITX board that houses 6 NVMe drives. That's your all-flash server done.
Unfortunately it uses a PCIe switch to get more lanes. That’s usually bad news for power efficiency
Came down here to realise nobody appreciated the meme introduction despite it being really funny. Please make more, Wolfgang
how do u get such low power usage? My 7700k unraid server w/ 4 drives does 44w 24/7, any idea how to get it lower?
Enable ASPM in the BIOS
Run `powertop --auto-tune` on boot
Spin down your drives when inactive
@@WolfgangsChannelI will try that out, thanks.
How is the reliability of the AsMedia HBA card? The TrueNAS crowd seems to swear by the LSI cards but they tend to run quite hot.
I can only speak from my personal experience, but I've never had issues with the ASM1166. Have two of them (in the PCIe and M.2 format), and they work well.
Many PC motherboards also include ASMedia SATA controllers onboard, and I don't see people having a problem with that
What was that intro.... hahahahahahah awesome
That's a lot of money for a board that has so many caveats and pain points. Hopefully the pain points have been addressed by now.
uh lattepanda v1 was out way before rpi4
"But can it run Dune" new benchmarking meme
Is that's easy to passthrough the igpu in proxmox?
Depends on the GPU, but Intel GPUs are usually ezpz
I just love the balls on LattePanda: rip the guts out of a NUC, slap a GPIO header on it, and charge $600. Wow, so disruptive! How odd - compute prices have never been lower, and yet new hardware has never seen such ridiculous retail markup in such a small form factor. At least buy me a drink before screwing me (the consumer over), Latte! #getOffMySiliconLawn
You could say that they didn’t even buy you a latte before screwing you 😁
I really like your video's, but I really can't stand the transition from out of focus to focus... You should speed that up, or (better yet) just put it in focus (and use in focus zoom if you don't like the static image).
Thx
Damn it’s fast tho.
Nice video, but the panda is with 600$ very expensive.
I can't wait to see what an AMD version.