Fight Club: 22 vs 24 Neck Humbucker Shootout
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- čas přidán 27. 07. 2024
- Check out the Angled vs Straight Humbucker Shootout video here: • Fight Club: Angled vs ...
Learn more about the 24 Fret Reposition for guitar bodies here: warmoth.com/24-fret-repo
Learn about the 24 Fret Extension for guitar necks here: warmoth.com/guitar-neck-fret-...
00:00 Intro
00:57 What is the 24 Fret Reposition?
01:21 Test Parameters
02:10 Test 1
02:45 Test 2
03:28 Test 3
03:57 Test 4
04:11 Aaron's Observations
05:25 Possible Conflicts with 24 Fret Repo
05:51 Wrap Up
I definitely prefer the 24-fret position. This hardly came as a surprise, since I don't really like the sound of most neck humbuckers - they just end up as mud. The 24 position would be a lot more useful to me.
The 24 fret is really "the neck humbucker without any of the muddy boominess". it's pre eq'ed to actually work in the mix! Might feel less nice while playing, less strong, but probably so much more usable in a band setting.
exactly what I think too :) might feel less "organic" somewhat, but more efficient
Maybe I'm just biased, but is it just me who listens to those 80s solos and, when Aaron switches the humbucker to the 24th position, feels like it just "unlocked" that iconic 80s-esque tone? Amazing how we admire and seek after all the vintage BS we're fed by the brands - PAFs this and that, tonewoods, brass stuff, etc etc - and such a simple and scientifically-based change that can noticeably get you in the hair metal territory is so underrated.
I play a lot of high gain and still prefer the 22 feet position. Sure it loses some definition to mud, but that’s what the bridge (or middle) pickup is for. Having such a deep sound makes for great fat leads. Finding a good bucker really helps too.
love the 22 too
it’s good for getting away with playing sloppy but i use it in the studio for almost clean and with the bridge combined old school at the time high gain before amps like the slo100 came out
Hey Aaron, since you have that big cavity at the neck, you need to test a single coil vs the Jake E Lee reverse slant single coil!!!!
I have been waiting for this video to drop!! Thanks for posting, Aaron! For years I’ve been convinced that’s 22 fret just nails this sizzle, especially when playing around the 12th fret. Have heard it’s because of the location of the harmonics. Could hear it for sure in Test #2
Would be cool to do a follow-up comparing the differences when BOTH pickups are on!
Just what I was going to say. The interaction between the pickups adds or subtracts different frequencies... I really want to hear that difference!
Yes! Compare with H-H. S-S (coil split humbuckers), H-S , and S-H. I found some really nice acoustic-like tones on my Gibson Les Paul Special by splitting the neck and adding in some bridge humbucker. Having separate volume knobs for each pickup helps a lot, too bad you don't have that on this guitar. But hey, you could easily add that.
These are absolutely amazing videos! Thanks to everything in Warmoth!
I moved the neck pickup on my 21 fret Strat about 1/2 inch closer to the bridge. I did this because in its original position, the open strings 5th fret harmonics were directly over a node, and that meant that they were silent. I just couldn't stand that. I'm happy with the mod and the way the harmonics ring out now. The mod didn't make too much difference in the overall tone - perhaps it's a little smoother sounding. I have a noiseless stacked humbucker in the neck position.
Well, the middle pickup the open strings 5th fret harmonics will be louder than the neck pickup, and the bridge pickup will be even louder than the middle pickup, for obvious reasons. No reason to move your neck pickup just for that, and then you lose SO much. Almost every guitar maker puts the neck pickup at the harmonic-nodal point FOR A REASON.
@@pharmerdavid1432 And that reason you SHOUT didn't work for me. 24 -fret guitars have the neck pickup in the same position mine is in now, and I find it works very well me.
I had thought I might not like the 24 position humbucker on my PRS Special 24 years ago. Turns out to be a favourite!
Hey Aaron, another good comparison. These really help us to figure which options we should get so thank you. I could hear a difference on all the clips but I can't tell you which one sounds better to me because they both sounded very good in their own way. Last there was something that I couldn't put my finger on watching this video so I had to go back and check out earlier videos until it finally hit me that you cut your hair! Never cut your hair.
Another Aaron video YAYYY! Love these!
Called it! Also, you can reduce mud by dropping your pickup and raising the polepieces -it can make a huge difference. You may have to drop the bridge to maintain even output.
Man... I waited a lot for this comparison. Thank u!
Good test. Good info. Thanks.
The 24 feet position sound is underrated. A lot of players think it’s “worse” than 22. It’s not worse, it’s just different. Frankly having guitars with both is just nice for more variety imo
I agree with you Aaron; I heard the sonic difference clearly. And my preference would be the standard position for that tone.
Great video. For us bass players, please do a bass video where you compare a standard P-bass pickup to a reverse mounted P-bass pickup keeping the centerline of the pickup the same distance from the bridge.
it would be a great test :)
For some reason I wasn’t subscribed anymore.... I definitely heard a difference in all clips. Interestingly, I preferred each for different things. I really like the 22 for the single stuff, but the 24 was really clear and bright for chording.
Cool content.
Thanks man.
A new warmoth video! It’s a good day
Wow much more mid/ treble punch in that lower position. That guitar looks way cool too! Love that tiger stripe on the wall🎉
wow I love this! I like the 24 reposition sound much better, more midrange focus and less bassy. Not saying it's better overall but I like it better myself. Given me something interesting to think about for my next build!
I've compare both positions with my guitars, and the difference is huge o my ears!
I would like to hear split coil (the 2 coils) in 22 and 24th position.
It would be interesting compare the timbre betwren the two positions with the other pickup, also with bridge pup...
You're the best. Keep on.
Always good shoot-out.. 😊👍🏼
You're right man,
I prefer 24 fret position ,
but for Clean #4 the 22 Fret Position= sounds better.
Good Job Man.. 👌🏼👏🏼
Great video thanks. I know what I prefer.
The answer to the question is, "No, it doesn't make enough of a difference to care about." However, I think I slightly prefer the "24-fret reposition" position. It has a slightly brighter, sweeter sound to me.
Thanks for this test! I value rich clean sounds over higher gain sounds, and the 24th fret placement sounds way too trebly to me, but on a darker sounding instrument it probably works well.
Great comparison....I'd be interested in seeing a similar video with a single coil...!?!?!?
Awesome and informative video. Can you please redo the experiment with 23 frets as well. I am very curious!!!
i'm surprised i found the 24 fret position better for this specific test, but my opinion might differ with different types of pickups too, e.g single coils or P90s or even just a different humbucker
Yes, very true!
Coincidentally, I started flipping around my neck humbuckers around the same time Adam Jones did, but for a different reason - the reason for the attraction to the 24-fret reposition. On 22-fret guitars, the dominant coil of the humbucker is placed right under the 24th-fret harmonic node, which leads to some harmonics being muted. When repositioned to make room for more frets, the tone becomes more trebly, but the sound becomes fuller, due to being moved away from the node, and thus, more harmonic content of notes.
It’s like -3dB low shelf down on the fundamental and second harmonic.
If you’re playing in an ensemble, it makes sense to have the 24 reposition. In contrast, if you’re playing solo guitar, you might want the extra girth from the pickup moved closer toward the 24th fret harmonic position.
I love when you play your Romantics riff! lol... Test 3 the 24 position was pretty darn mean and nasty. Shocked me. Good test AC...
I personally liked the 24 fret position, its more focused with just enough clarity and tightness, its makes it useable for more styles and genres imo
Can you do a test of whether a guitar with a floating tremolo system has a different tone from an identical hardtail version?
I second the motion... My Robert Cray hardtail strat is the best I've ever played, both in feel and sound (and looks - Inca silver). My Nash strat with wang bar is a great strat too, but the wang-bar block and springs change the sound considerably, giving it reverberation, and a "clanginess". The Robert Cray is more woody sounding, and has the best strat pickups I've ever heard, including a flat-pole bridge pickup that sounds more like a telecaster (a good thing)!
I’d be curious to see a comparison between the brightest and warmest guitar you could build, like a long scale,all-maple, stainless steel frets vs a short scale mahogany one, or something like that.
Warmest is a thick mahogany body with a thick mahogany neck, and rosewood fretboard without stainless steel frets (they make it more trebly), with humbuckers or P-90 pickups. That's why I have LP Specials 1999/2000 with humbuckers and P-90 pickups! I now also have a 2001 faded 'Special which is going to get some Firebird pickups in humbucker mounts, unless I use them in a newly acquired 2011 Epiphone Wilshire Pro reissue (batwing headstock!). It has a chunky C neck, and is so light weight that I I luvs it to death.......!
wasn't expecting the volume drop. but makes sense
I was unnecessarily satisfied when the headstock lined up with the picture on the wall…
Haha! It's become a thing!
I've subscribed to this channel, I activated notifications and I liked all videos. What else can I do to show how much I love this channel? :)
haha! Thank-you!! Email Warmoth and tell them Aaron should get to get an unlimited budget to film as many videos as he wants! ;)
Being a Strat player who used the neck position 3/4 of the time I had a problem with getting a useable sound from the Ibanez rg550. To my ears it was in this neck/middle limbo. 20+ years later I'm 80% bridge and the Ibanez would be fine for me, depending less on the neck pickup for rhythm. For lead it's a bit clearer.
Aaron's observations are in line with mine, especially the bit about the style/type/genre music played may be better served on one setup over the other.
In lieu of anything else to add, I'll instead comment on Paul Red Smith and his namesake guitars. He "famously" split the 25.5" Fender and 24.75" Gibson scale lengths to come up with 25". However, a true 50/50 split would result in a 25.125" scale length. Now, PRS has an exacting personality, so why did he go with 25"? As I hate it when people post questions, but don't answer it themselves, here's my take: 25" is a whole number.
Years ago I had a 24fret HH guitar, but after a few years decided the tone just wasn't right, and sold it (much to my retroactive regret :) ). Now I'm thinking I may just have to go 24 frets on my latest build (a headless demi-Telecaster with a neck HB). I think the brightness and somewhat different harmonic content will make a good contrast to my "normal" 22 fret guitars. Prob. be nice to have the additional tool in the tonal toolbox again.
I think tonal differences might be even more noticeable if you're using the traditional 2 volume controls, the tone blending you get by using the neck volume as a master would shift for sure.
i used to like guitars with two volumes and the neck for gritty cleans live or both for medium gain but i like the volume roll
when switching tones just using the bridge live really cuts through that kind of mix better
I don’t know how it is with all guitar brands but with PRS, they don’t move the neck pick up. As the fretboard is 3/4” inch longer they instead move the bridge and the bridge pick up. That means you get all the frets 3/4” away from the body and a little different position to your fret hand. That could be a little strange or odd if you are used to 22 frets.
Yes, and that's exactly why I don't like PRS 24 fret offerings. The neck feels too far away. If you want to play an F bar chord you better pack a lunch.
What I heard in both the samples and Aaron's comments is that 24 reposition is for rhythm (makes chords clearer) and 22 standard is for lead guitar (makes it throatier). You're welcome!
Those glassy leads on the 22 position :)
Wow, such a huge difference, 22 frets all day
My favorite is reverse slant in the neck position, roughly 24th fret pozish under the bass strings, 22nd under the trebly strings. Jake got it right. But it really depends on the output and EQ of the pickup.
Ah Yes The Jake E Lee Configuration...
Love the Journey solo during Test #2!!!
All that being said, I think I prefer the 24 position... Hmmmm
I think a video about the rare woods and special runs at Warmoth would be super interesting. Like, remember Chechen? Tell them kinda stories. The Warmoth HoF.
On my iPhone, could not hear a difference on test #4. Could hear small difference on the other tests, and preferred the 24 fret position. Another idea I’m quite curious about, is how a Strat neck pickup would sound if it was placed right between the stock middle and neck positions. I have a Teisco with just one “foil” pickup in about that same location, and it has led me to believe that pickup position is quite the “sweet spot”.
Single coil --> 22 frests to add "body"
Humbucker --> 24 frests to "remove mudness"
Two considerations I'll mention I haven't see in the comments are:
1) What will this mean to your playing style especially in regard to free space for picking "behind" or "between" the pickups (such as HSH), likely a "con" for voting 24 position.
2) The 24 fret pickup position should yield more structure of body wood in the neck pocket area. Likely a "pro" for the 24 fret position. In this test with the "body of tone" oversized rout any sonic differences gained by improved neck area structure would not be observed.
Hi Arron. Yes, I can hear it for sure but it made me wonder, how would it change the tone with both pick ups on, and did the neck pick up moving closer to the bridge pick up effect it at all.
I was curious if you tried it in this test and found it was to minimal to put it in, or did I just suggest your next video?
Before this, I prefer 24 fret simply because of the extra two frets giving me two full octaves and also for the looks. After listening to this comparison, I'm happy with my preference because I think the neck pickup in the 24 fret position is much better sounding in my opinion. More clarity, and you don't have that flabby low end.
In my guitars with more distance between the 22nd fret and the pickup - SG and a single-pickup Danelectro - I find that the 5th fret harmonic is much stronger. Same goes for a Strat middle pickup vs. the neck.
Greatly preferred 24.
New suggestion for comparison and clarity video’s! About one piece necks vs 3-5-7+ pieces. Does it make it a difference in sound or stability! What is the piece limit? Et cetera
Always wondered about this, with both my neck and bridge pickups. Any videos coming out with the bridge pickup moving toward the neck? (Besides the EVH one you described)
I obviously expected the 24 fret to be brighter, but it's more like the 24 was more scooped where the standard had more low mids.
Warmoth still needs to make a proper 24 fret version in this day and age. Moving the frets up with a finger board extension doesn't do much
The reason we have never offered that is because it cannot be done without altering Fender's vintage/original neck pocket specs, and that is what our entire product line is based on.
Mother, Father. Nice choice, Aaron!
I am in a Journey tribute, so I know them all. M/F is one of my favorites though!
Ed Roman, you were right
I don't know you personally but you seem like a cool dude so I hope you're feeling OK.
I feel a little less definition when the pickup is closer to the bridge. More noticeable in solo lines for my taste.
My ears could hear a difference. I liked the 24-re-position better, soundwise. Especially clean. This is one reason why I prefer 24-fret guitars. Many thanks for this "scientific" video, it is highly appreciated.
Can you do reverse vs regular heastock comparison tone test? Wanna know what is the effect of longer string and the distance of tuners to nut.
I do prefer the 24 fret position, though I'm not big on neck humbuckers. I just got a single coil in the neck position of my 24 fret Warmoth build, and I don't find it to be much different from a regular neck single coil. Maybe closer to a Jazzmaster neck pickup? I dunno, it's unique and I dig it so that's what counts. :P
The standard position sounded fuller to me in all the clips.
Aaron, can you do a shootout between lam tops?? (Maple over Mahogony vs Black Korina over Alder for example)
The biggest reason- pretty much the ONLY reason- that one would want 24 frets, is to play in the highest registers.
The 24 fret neck-pickup relocation ACTUALLY IMPROVES that "roundness" and "girth" for lead playing in those highest registers. To prove this:
Take a Strat style guitar or an axe with a similar three pickup arrangement.
Play lead-lines and licks in the 15th position or higher, using the neck-pickup.
Then continue playing the same, but switch to the middle-pickup;
the middle-pickup will suddenly sound more like the neck-pickup than the neck-pickup does when playing in the high registers.
This is because a pickup nearer to the middle of the length of vibrating string will have more 'fundamental' tone and less 'overtones', giving a round, hollowed, bell-like tone, the way the standard neck-position pickup does over MOST of the fretboard.
Move the middle of the length of vibrating string toward the bridge- by playing in the higher fret positions- and a pickup placed closer to that new 'middle' will have those qualities.
Mother, Father by Journey? VERY nice....
I know I noticed a huge difference having a bridge humbucker in the neck position without reversing it so that the single coil split wasn't the one nearest the neck in a HSH layout, the neck/middle out of phase position sucked, the wrong frequencies got canceled and it ruined the usual strat position 4 sound, I can see that being a problem with a 24 fret neck, you can't do a proper SSS spacing.
The thing I'm wondering about is that I want to take a "24" fret neck, but change the scale to 26-1/8", it should come out to 21-22 frets overall. I'd need to move the bridge back, and all the pickups could shift with it, but I haven't worked out the math on all the relative p/u positions. I know it can be done and still have good out of phase sounds, that custom strat Billy Gibbons gave SRV was done this way, or it's a completely custom neck, I don't know, but I think a 24 fret neck could be used as a base for it. I emailed warmoth a question about this years ago and never got a response.
Kind of surprised the bass difference didn't wash out in moderate distortion. I've long wondered if the best position for a single humbucker guitar isn't somewhere between the bridge and middle position. It'd never sell though because it makes it look like a First Act single pickup guitar.
The Supro Jamesport has a single pickup in the position you described. A lot of dealers blew them out for like half off, though, so yeah, might not be a popular option!
22 fret position is much better for me. You have the middle (in strats) and bridge positions when you want that brighter sound. For me the neck pickup is *supposed* to get that bassy low-harmonic-heavy sound. So when you want that, use the neck pickup. Putting it closer to the bridge just loses a bit of that. And I say this as a player mostly of 24 fret guitars who has to switch to my strat or humbucker tele when I want that particular neck pickup sound. If only they could put the pickup *under* the fretboard, things would be perfect.
Would love to know what pickups you recommend for getting EVH's Ernie Ball tones in the beginning of Humans Being, with that 2nd position sound, and Don't Tell Me What Love Can Do. I've heard Duncan Custom recommended but, your thoughts?
I once had a guitar with 24,5 inch scale and 24 frets with single coil pickup in the neck position. It sounded almost like strat middle pickup, i hated it so much :D
I could change pickup to hot rail or something, but it was a cheap guitar so i didn't bother.
YES!!!
can you please do same thing with single's.
can you do the same test with a single coil in the neck?
I don't call it added girth in the standard position. I call it missing tone in the 24 fret position. It's just gone. I think it would really be missed on single coil pups as they already sound thinner anyway. While it's subtle I think it could really affect how you play. I'd be hunting all over the place with my picking position and technique trying to find that missing sound. Might even uninspire me while playing.
What if the guitar is equipped with coil split? I believe that the split coil should sound better closest to the neck (fretboard)? On a 24 fret guitar?
Derek Trucks mostly uses the neck position on his vintage SG standard, despite it being moved from the best position at the harmonic/nodal-point (is that a correct term?). First year Les Paul Special double-cuts had the neck pickup at the harmonic/nodal-point, which weakened the neck joint, but improved the tone? Looking at my Epiphone SG '61 Custom reissue, there is a hole underneath the pick guard plastic between the neck hum bucking pickup and the fretboard, so it didn't strengthen the neck joint much by moving the pickup ~1/2" (inch) towards the bridge. It seems like they could have moved the neck pickup to its "proper" position without weakening the neck joint, or am I missing something? That said, many slide players prefer the middle pickup, or one pickup guitars with the pickup positioned in the middle, maybe because it's more "middy" sounding without as many overtones, which translates to a better slide tone...?
Another suggestion for a comparison video: chanbered body vs non-chambered
Already did that one. Check it out: czcams.com/video/I6U6EV7jSyc/video.html
I checked the video and it was great! Very usefull comparison.
Another request: bolt on vs neckthrough. Is there a difference in sound, sustain? I look forward to see a vs video about that🙏
On my iPhone 11’s speakers, the difference is audible, but not anything worth caring about. There wasn’t even a consistent winner, IMHO. I’m pretty sure either position could be made to sound like the other by choosing different strings or EQ settings.
Dunno if that’d still be the case with single coils, since IIUC their narrower design makes them more susceptible to having their poles being directly under a node.
I love the neck bucker with 22. Huge open sound. Does it get muddy fast when you hit it with gain, of course and I love that too, pure filth!! What about if I want to play metal? Wait you use the neck pup for metal???! Now who’s weird!
great video! i wish all guitar manufacturers would stop making guitars with less than 24 frets.
pick up location matters! And the location that matters the most by far is the bridge lol. FACTS!
Just ordered a body and a neck to my specifications hopefully it’s going to sing…
In which shootout was there more difference with distortion than clean?
I wonder how different it would sound with a single coil in the different positions
a bit more treble, a bit less bass and a bit less "wooly" fuzzy sound with the 24 fret position. Overall I like it more. Sounds a bit more like "fat" and smooth bridge Pup then traditional neck Pup. Probably more usable unless for some reason you really like that muddy sound or play mostly clean/jazz and want as much full and thick clean tone as possible.
Same…. On 24 fret you can take that bridge pup and roll the tone knob all the way back and get so close to the neck pup sound (neck pup with tone full up.).
Hi Aaron, what neck pickup did you use for this shootout? I like the way it sounds in both positions.
IIRC it was the Seymour Duncan Jazz.
24 fret sounds more middle pickup which is the most Strat-like position.
How about 21 frets vs 22 frets of strat?
My experience is you lose all the warmth and dimensionality with 24 frets. BUT, if play up to far up the neck, then the 24th fret actually contains more harmonics and is in fact warner, because the pickup is closer to half way to the fretted note.
I believe Joe Satriani uses a single coil sized humbucker in the neck to keep the 22 fret sound while having 24 frets. Possible sequel to this video?
The problem with this video is that it ignores the fact that there are two pickups on the guitar. Yes, of course, the 24 fret position is going to have a dramatically different sound that is going to de-emphasize bass response, but that is exactly why I dislike 24 fret guitars with humbuckers-you lose so much bottom end and richness. It might be exactly what you want for your style, if you frequently play the neck pickup alone, but I rely more on the blended tone of both pickups together, and to my ears, the 22 fret guitars sound better because the heavier bass response of the pickup in the 22 fret position balances the bridge position pickup better.
I waited decades for Warmoth to do a proper 24 fret neck. 30 years, more. I basically have to have 24 frets. And from my own tonal excursions. I'd have built many Warmoth guitars by now, they might have even been my main guitars for as long. But the hang over shelf thing is a no go for me. I've noticed a difference in how necks are attached and the type of wood and construction to the tone of the 24th fret, how it rings out and i use the 24th fret enough that it matters. Neck pickups are another thing. Not many that i actually like. However concerning the difference between the 22nd fret and 24th fret tone on the neck pup in general. There is this thing called a tone knob. And you can use it to thicken up the neck pup to sound more like a 22 fret guitar on a 24 fret guitar.
The MAIN difference "imo". Is the feel of how the guitar sits and the confort if you will between a 22 or 24 fret guitar. 22 fret i have found on some guitars to be more comfortable. in just the way your wrist sits and especially over the knee in some of the more common positions. It's slight but noticeable. On some types of builds. Still 24 frets all day for general use for me. I actually have my tone knob slightly turned down just for that. Doesn't affect the bridge tone as much negatively, but sweetens up the neck pup. Depends on the neck pup though.