Yes, but that is not caused because the fret gets worn, but because of the minimal fret height, is like doing a bending down to the fretboard, and it will happen no matter how round or flat a fret is.
I prefer jumbo frets, simple reason is slides. Tall narrow frets catch my fingertips with fast slides reducing my speed considerably. I don't care about the intonation difference.....I can't hear it at all, I'm not sensitive to that in the slightest. Almost all of my string breaks were on tall narrow frets, don't know why but that is absolutely clear to me.
That’s why I had all my guitars stainless steel frets refreted (and no tonal differences in my case as the job was done with highly polish process and perfect set up)
@ no talk What kind of guitar did you put the stainless steel threads ill still frets on what were they medium smoke is medium's small jumbo and what about the tonal changes ?
It probably does affect the intonation, but it can be for the better depending on which fret it is. What is more important is to have a good tone, and the crown really affects that.
@@TexanUSMC8089 only if you’re not using a whammy bar. In which case the wraps around the post tend to get caught on each other when returning to pitch. This is especially true of the wound strings. Locking tuners allow for less -sometimes none-wraps, significantly helping tuning stability. Guaranteed.
You can always correct a wide fret's intonation with a regular file.....crown them sharper. You can put a thinner crown on your frets with a regular file. I like wider (110) higher(.050) frets or higher. They give you more metal to work with.....especially leveling.
@@TylrVncnt Your logic is off. A wide feet with a thin crown ia the same as a thin fret with a thin crown. I'd the crown ia the sake size on both fears the intonation is the same. And if the material is the same the thin crown will ware the same way on both frets.
I’ve gone recently for 6150, narrow tall, but just for one guitar. The rest I deal with as the cost is prohibitive for my vintage guitars. Good info for sure.
I bought a Les Paul in 1985. It was a few years old. The frets were wide and short and I loved it. I was 18 and it was the first electric guitar I ever played, having only touched an acoustic a couple of times before that. So I didn't really no anything about frets. Not longer after my brother bought a 4001 bass. The word that came mind was craggy. I loved that bass but it was so hard to play. Then he bought a Strat. The frets were so tall and narrow compared to my Paul. I felt like I had to work a lot harder. I had to dig in a little. There's other factors to that, ofc, but the frets really made a difference. It was a good learning experience. Then he got a 70s Mustang bass. The frets were kind of flat and wide like my Paul. It plays like butter. So smooth. I still have that bass.
I agree with this statement whole heartedly. Im just now researching specifics for my kiesel order. Ive played a lot of guitars and have owned a few prestige higher end models that played better than anything else I could find in stores. my gothic gibson sg was my 2nd guitar, my first real guitar that i learned the most on for the first 3-5 years of playing and its what I learned to shred on. I was 17 18 and could play faster on that guitar than i ever could in my life. Even when i matured as a guitarist and later started playing prestige ibanez shreddy types, my playing slowed down considerably as I got better, but i still always preferred my gibsons fretboard as i could just fly so much faster on that thing. What i remember most about my gibby is how low and wide the frets were to the board and also a very flat radius and on top of that the 24.75" scale for even faster noting. Speed and having a guitar that has superb playability for speed is under rated imo because from my experience being able tonaccess notes far easier and faster means just more control over all. I can choose to play as fast as i need or as slow as i need but the frets and super low action always make most situations while playing much easier.
@@monitorlizard9971 Interesting stuff. I actually haven't played much electric guitar in the last 30 years. I mostly doodle on acoustic. None of the electric guitars I've played since my Paul, which isn't many, had the same type of frets. It was almost like playing a fretless with a little help. Sometimes I wonder if I'm remembering it correctly, though. I recently watched some videos on fret types and they didn't talk at all about low wide frets.
@@redhorsereincarnated5040 yeah i feel you on my memory being a blur after so long. It was a while ago, my gibsons frets were somehow superior to every single gibson id try out in guitar centers during that time. Im really not sure why that was. Other gibsons frets seemed bulky and slowed me down. But my gibby had insanely low and flat action and the frets themselves were just as low and flat. Idl why... But like i said all other gibsons in store did not feel the same as this. Maybe it was because I wore the frets down so they were super low? Idk. my gibson was a 2000-2003 model brand new. Websites say gibson uses medium jumbo as a standard though. So I am assuming this has got to be it. It is also the standard size kiesel has on their builder, and kiesel is quite known for being the shred metal top g american standard instruments atm with popularity growing as we speak. So i would assume medium jumbo. I researched the specs on my sg and i cant find the specific fret sizes for that build. But I did read on some forums that gibson has used quite a few different fret sizes over the years and people even measure and realize that their older gibsons frets play so well because after heavy use and wearing it in much like a form fitted baseball glove, the frets will "wear down comfortably" to being flatter with the board and more comfortable to play on. Limits of my knowledge on frets for the moment. Shrugs
Fun fact i actually found my gothic sg in a used guitar store one day and was shocked. It was the same exact guitar with the same exact superb playability except, they had filed the frets down suuuuuuuuper low even further to where there was barely any fret at all. It was so easy to play that it was actually a tad harder to play and felt really weird playi g on almost flush frets with like less than 1mm of string gap. If that makes any sense. Definitely great for legato. But it was just crazy finding this guitar and seeing even lower frets than mine and my guitar was already way easier to play than anyone elses and this one with the frets filed down was even more so ridiculous. Even my JS and S series prestige ibanezes i would later get made in japan didnt fret or fly quite like my old gibby. I do say the 24.75" gibson scale versus the standard 25.5" scale is a huge game changer too though. But also the fret wire used. I wish i knew more about the exact finer details and specifics on fret wire.
The biggest reason i like wide frets vs narrow is feel. I get much smoother slides and it just feels better. Even though my finger tips are mainly dead callous and numb, going up and down the strings on wide frets is like going down a regular road. Where tall narrow fell like hitting rumble strips on the road. Some people I am sure like it. Which again is all a matter of the guitarist taste. I prefer rosewood fingerboards or ebony, vs maple, or unfinished wood vs finished wood. Its a feel thing.
Awe man. Yes. I have worn frets like your graph. I need crowned. I've had issues sliding up and my fingers grab the outside of the fret. I'm also hearing that slight off tune at times.
If the contact point shifted towards the tuners, then the string would buzz on the fret. The only time you would have this problem is with extremely worn frets that need a re crowning. Big frets last longer, and tall narrow frets feel like speed bumps. I refretted my Parker P-38 with super jumbo frets for this reason. The guitar plays much nicer now.
While the topic is something to ponder when determining fret size, it's an *important note that any guitar with standard fretwork is far from perfectly tuned. The difference in the contact point of used and unused is not important when the note is already off pitch. However, this would apply to true temperament fretted guitars, for they have perfect pitch with every note, but nobody's ears can truly detect the difference when it's that miniscule.
Another factor to consider is the wider frets will ware slower than the narrow frets because there is less material for the strings to wear off, therefore wearing the frets down quicker.
Interesting discussion. I thought it didn't matter how wide your frets are (in terms of intonation) because when they are dressed correctly, whether wide or narrow, they will have the same amount of contact area. BUT, now that I hear you talk about frets as they wear, I can see how wider frets (as they wear) can give more intonation problems than narrow frets. On another note, what brand of fret wire do you use? Thanks for another great video.
I am looking for that nice fretbuzz or rasp when you dig in a little on a bass guitar. I have noticed this is much easier on some basses than others. Of course its a about the action being low or high, but I guess it has to be something about the frets as well. If they are wide/narrow etc. What kind of frets should I go for to get the Marcus miller rasp tone when digging in on with fingerstyle. I don't mean slap bass btw, but a similar sound just with digging in with fingers. Thanks
A professional guitarist uses up fret material much faster than the casual player. If you play for fun in your bedroom, maybe a total of an hour or two a week, then your frets will last a very long time. He wasn't talking to you about needing new frets on every couple of years, so calm down, your frets are fine.
If you have regular nickel alloy frets, do not use cobalt treated strings. Those strings are meant for stainless steel frets. You will wear regular frets quicker.
I love the Jumbos. My fingers don't hit them when I am sliding up and down the neck like the skinny frets. The Jumbos are also slinkier and easier to bend notes. Also, I believe the Jumbos sound better and harmonics come off them easier.
Hey Chris, what's your opinions on True Temperament frets? I've seen some builders using them and gluing a fret SEEMS like it ought to have some strength issues besides crowning (for later) problems. I haven't used them myself but it makes me wonder about it.
Well, you talk about perfect intonation in your video, and the effect on it caused by slight fret changes. Fine. But however, that effect is smaller than the rise of (different per string and position) tension of a string being pushed down to the fret, which was never part of the equation. TT just solved that, as goofy as it looks. Also, before hating them, people should dive into the physics of intervals and harmony, which is the reason why a perfectly tuned guitar will never be able to play two chords perfectly where one has it‘s major third on the B string and one the perfect fifth… Anyway, this is why (where I guess we have the point where we totally meet) I say that tuning a normally fretted guitar is searching for the best compromise where no one can hear that every interval is slightly off, but none too far. And also, a good guitarist has to learn intonation by micro-bending and light touch ok the fret that can be pushed when a few more cents are needed.
@@Maschine_Elf Well, fret wear makes playing the guitar harder and makes it necessary to put the strings a little higher, which THEN results in worse intonation. I just got my main guitar PLEKed and I'm stunned how easy that guitar plays now and how flat I can have my strings without outfretting any note. (not trying to over-praise this machine, a good luthier is able to get 99% the same result)
04/02/2023: I am a beginner bedroom player. I just bought an Eart T-380 with HH splitable pickups. This guitar sound good to me, and has a lot of features for an inexpensive $400.00 guitar to include stainless steel frets. I have as bad habit of notching fret wires no matter what size, so I though steel would be great for me. But, they are very small, narrow, and highly polished rounded tops, and highly polished rounded ends. The action for 10-46 is very low with no buzzing. They feel OK for me, but will they last is my question to you?
good tip. Guitar in general it is not solid accurate pitch in my personal opinion. you was right about nickel fret. 6 hours a day of play...one year gone!
Well dam I should refret my guitars cause I play hard and know the frets are worn but never thought this was why it sounded off 😬 time to learn to do a new skill
ok so....sorry if youve already got a video addressing this, but why do people want wider frets? im probably going to go google it and see what discussions i find, but it sounds like there are a lot of upsides to narrow/medium frets but...why wide?
I'm a bit heavy with my left hand, that is why I fret all my guitars with 6130 instead of 6150. It is worse when you press heavily a tall narrow fret than a worn short wide fret. You do not need super hears to hear it. Obviously stainless steel frets will last more. But they sound different and do not please to everybody. Then we talk about re fret or re shaping worn frets. Imo re shaping is a waste of time. The best is to put new frets. I will not explain why, but thrust me. I've done a lot of fret re shaping...
No, you’re not doing it wrong. You’re just failing to grasp the topic. No matter where you press the strings with your fingers, you are pressing them DOWN and their first point of contact is the top center of the frets.
My workhorse is a mim Strat, on which I killed the frets within 2 or 3 years. I relevelled the frets and had to take away a big amount, so they were evenly flat again. So I am thinking about getting new frets. But I am not sure which frets I should take. I mainly play blues lead and rhythm. Now I have narrow frets. Any suggestions?
Go to a guitar store and play all of the guitars until you find the frets you like. Research the guitar to find out what about the frets it has and bingo, you’ll know what to get.
Coincidentally, it's the same as the number of licks it takes to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll Pop. In other words, it's one of the great mysteries in life. But in all seriousness, I'd say 3-4.
Okay so narrower frets may be better for intonation... So why are wider frets so popular? Whats the benefit? Slightly slower wear if you dont recrown as it wears? If its crowned to a fine point anyway I dont really understand why they're so well liked?
Need to start planning after 12-18 months, means planning 3.5yrs in advanced for most people... That some seriously slow planning. :) So, for narrow frets intonating longer than wide frets, I guess the trade off is that they don't last as long? Because narrow frets have less metal to wear down than wide? So either the frets go out of intonation faster or wear down faster, either case you're recrowning or replacing them at the same time.
Best tone comes from a wider contact patch, a worn in fret. Bad for intonation, but great tone. NOWADAYS with steel frets, this should be accounted for and built into the fret and fret placement. A very old idea I first thought of the first time I had fretwork done and was dissatisfied with the change in tone and feel. Gibson knows/knew that a flat contact patch makes for a great playing and feeling guitar, have you ever heard of traintrack or schoolbus frets. Gibson did them for YEARS and millions of guitars.
Man... I agree that when the point of contact wears down it sharpens the note a little bit... but all strait fret instruments are a little bit out of tune anyway... so... I dont think it matters a lot for tunning... and if someone says that can hear the diference but didnt heard before that even the perfetcly leveled and dressed frets are out of tunning because its gonna be anyway with strait frets... well its bullsh1t... if you read this comment and think I am incorrect go search about true temperament guitar... its not a perfect solution but looking at it you will be more aware of the real intonation problems of all freted inatruments
Hi Chris! I know it's kinda of an obvious question but if a guitarist uses to much strength to press the frets then he shouldn't use jumbo frets, right? Just subscribed to your channel, cheers from Brazil!
I have a quicker tip. Perfect pitch is scientifically impossible to achieve on straight frets. If you have an ear that good, look into those wacky shaped true temperament fretboards. But I get your poiint. If its starting to sound extra sour, it might be time for a recrown. But you'll probably start wearing strings out quick in those spots long before you hear it.
My guitars will ALWAYS, be flattened out quick, i get G string dents that are massive dents in tje first 2 months of a brand new crowning. And my frets look like plateaus quickly also . I totally agree with all your feedback, but i also, know, guitars are an imperfect instrument , and even intonating a guitar, is based on the players finger pressure. You can compensate for heavy fret hand pressure pushing things sharp . I also know, anytime i play a guitar with a buzz feiten nut , its almost sterile, how in tune it is . Its not my thing . I prefer a vintage 62 real strat , with all its flaws .
Are you using stainless steel strings? Stainless steel strings are harder than most Nickel Silver Fret wire, as such the frets take a beating in short order. Try switching to vintage Pure Nickel guitar string, they might slow down your fret wear issues.
Very informative, but I think the diagrams don’t indicate how a string looks when it touches the fret. You would be pushing it down onto the fretboard, so wouldn’t there be a sharper angle on the tuner side? You don’t press on top of the fret - you press up against it, or in between frets, depending on your technique.
@@HighlineGuitars the wider fret would have a wider (worn) contact area so even with the same fingers pressure, the PSI of the contact area is less and therefore also has slower wear. In other words, only some sort of mechanical testing or advanced physical modelling would be able to say for sure which changes the intonation more over time.
Of course what you're saying is correct. As frets wear, they will decrease the distance from intonation and cause a variance in the natural tone. In reality, the distance of so minute that it becomes irrelevant. The player will make more of a tonal variance based off of how much pressure is exerted on the string with his fingers.
Yeah but you dont press the string down on the fret you press in the middle of the two frets so that picture isnt right the string would be going up from the fretboard and over the fret. And i doubt youd be able to notice the difference with your ears or a tuner.
Eh it's negligible. The guitar is flawed and doesn't have perfect intonation on each fret anyways unless you have True Temperment fretwire system. Either perfectly crowned or flat, it will not be perfectly intune either way.
BS. Just pressing the fret at a slight angle or pressing with a bit more force would cause much greater intonation differences. On top of all that guitars do not have perfect intonation, you can get closer with temperment frets. Still, the problems above remain.
I agree w the concept but your illustration is flawed slightly imho. When u fret a note, your finger goes in back of the note being played. So on a worn flat fret the note would be made slightly FLAT, as point of contact would be on the nut side of fret center. Not the bridge side as show in the illustration which would make the note sharp.
The instant you play a single note on your guitar you should be planning on replacing every single part of your instrument. If you even touch it, you should be aware that it will begin to sound like trash within 30-45 seconds. So refretting is pretty much a necessity after the first day you buy it new. So just be aware of that. 🤡
Yes, the width of the frets can affect the intonation. However, how hard you press the strings, can affect it even more.
That'll be covered in the next Luthier's Quick Tip (already in the can).
Yes, but that is not caused because the fret gets worn, but because of the minimal fret height, is like doing a bending down to the fretboard, and it will happen no matter how round or flat a fret is.
@@nicolashrv Exactly my point. The effect fret wear has on intonation is minimal compared to the effect caused by pressing the strings too hard.
@@pallecla the fret wear has the same effect as having the strings too high in first place.
@@nicolashrv That must be some seriously high frets we are talking about, if you compare them with too high action...
To hear the difference when a worn fret is off by 1/64th of an inch you're going to need more than a "trained ear". That's gonna require super powers.
totally, this comparison is a bit ridiculous.
Really love your videos sir!!
U r very helpful person.
Love from India!
I prefer jumbo frets, simple reason is slides. Tall narrow frets catch my fingertips with fast slides reducing my speed considerably. I don't care about the intonation difference.....I can't hear it at all, I'm not sensitive to that in the slightest. Almost all of my string breaks were on tall narrow frets, don't know why but that is absolutely clear to me.
i just realized i prefer narrow frets, after buying a classical guitar with tall narrow ones. they are a charm :)
Great info as always !! Thank you !!
Stainless refret with 6100s, now I’m set for life (especially since I just bought a new Suhr that also has stainless frets).
no way.....way too high! Too big in general.
@eltigre8978: Too big? It’s all down to personal preference.
That’s why I had all my guitars stainless steel frets refreted (and no tonal differences in my case as the job was done with highly polish process and perfect set up)
@ no talk
What kind of guitar did you put the stainless steel threads ill still frets on what were they medium smoke is medium's small jumbo and what about the tonal changes ?
Finger pressure differs from individual to individual and I noticed that is much greater intonation factor to be considered when fine tuning guitar
I'll touch on that next week.
I would think that the wider frets would also wear down more slowly because of more material in the fret, negating any difference.
Thanks sir, good information
I've always been a fan of jumbo frets, but I have to say that I'm liking the tall thin frets these days.
Narrow tall stainless steel are the best.
Stainless steel are the way to go. Don’t worry about the size with stainless steel
Extra jumbo player here. Thank you for providing me a brand-spanking new excuse for my lackluster playing.
It probably does affect the intonation, but it can be for the better depending on which fret it is. What is more important is to have a good tone, and the crown really affects that.
Fret measurements effect: tuning, intonation, tone, tembre, sustain and playing articulation ! ! ! Peace & Play 🎸 On . . . 👍🤘🎸😎 DDH 8-24-2020.
This is a great point, but I can't tell A from B, so i'll be fine. Stainless jumbos feel awesome and that is what i care the most.
Love the stainless steel Frets on my Suhr. . . also the Locking tuners.
All locking tuners do is help you change strings faster.
@@TexanUSMC8089 only if you’re not using a whammy bar. In which case the wraps around the post tend to get caught on each other when returning to pitch. This is especially true of the wound strings. Locking tuners allow for less -sometimes none-wraps, significantly helping tuning stability. Guaranteed.
It is true. I put deep dents in Fender fretwire after about three years.
You can always correct a wide fret's intonation with a regular file.....crown them sharper.
You can put a thinner crown on your frets with a regular file.
I like wider (110) higher(.050) frets or higher. They give you more metal to work with.....especially leveling.
This thin crown is quickly worn thru tho
@@TylrVncnt Your logic is off. A wide feet with a thin crown ia the same as a thin fret with a thin crown. I'd the crown ia the sake size on both fears the intonation is the same. And if the material is the same the thin crown will ware the same way on both frets.
I’ve gone recently for 6150, narrow tall, but just for one guitar. The rest I deal with as the cost is prohibitive for my vintage guitars. Good info for sure.
6150 is medium jumbo. 6105 is narrow tall.
I bought a Les Paul in 1985. It was a few years old. The frets were wide and short and I loved it. I was 18 and it was the first electric guitar I ever played, having only touched an acoustic a couple of times before that. So I didn't really no anything about frets. Not longer after my brother bought a 4001 bass. The word that came mind was craggy. I loved that bass but it was so hard to play. Then he bought a Strat. The frets were so tall and narrow compared to my Paul. I felt like I had to work a lot harder. I had to dig in a little. There's other factors to that, ofc, but the frets really made a difference. It was a good learning experience. Then he got a 70s Mustang bass. The frets were kind of flat and wide like my Paul. It plays like butter. So smooth. I still have that bass.
Scale length and string diameter can come into play the same way you're describing. Shorter scale will be easier to play.
I agree with this statement whole heartedly. Im just now researching specifics for my kiesel order. Ive played a lot of guitars and have owned a few prestige higher end models that played better than anything else I could find in stores. my gothic gibson sg was my 2nd guitar, my first real guitar that i learned the most on for the first 3-5 years of playing and its what I learned to shred on. I was 17 18 and could play faster on that guitar than i ever could in my life. Even when i matured as a guitarist and later started playing prestige ibanez shreddy types, my playing slowed down considerably as I got better, but i still always preferred my gibsons fretboard as i could just fly so much faster on that thing. What i remember most about my gibby is how low and wide the frets were to the board and also a very flat radius and on top of that the 24.75" scale for even faster noting. Speed and having a guitar that has superb playability for speed is under rated imo because from my experience being able tonaccess notes far easier and faster means just more control over all. I can choose to play as fast as i need or as slow as i need but the frets and super low action always make most situations while playing much easier.
@@monitorlizard9971 Interesting stuff. I actually haven't played much electric guitar in the last 30 years. I mostly doodle on acoustic. None of the electric guitars I've played since my Paul, which isn't many, had the same type of frets. It was almost like playing a fretless with a little help. Sometimes I wonder if I'm remembering it correctly, though. I recently watched some videos on fret types and they didn't talk at all about low wide frets.
@@redhorsereincarnated5040 yeah i feel you on my memory being a blur after so long. It was a while ago, my gibsons frets were somehow superior to every single gibson id try out in guitar centers during that time. Im really not sure why that was. Other gibsons frets seemed bulky and slowed me down. But my gibby had insanely low and flat action and the frets themselves were just as low and flat. Idl why... But like i said all other gibsons in store did not feel the same as this. Maybe it was because I wore the frets down so they were super low? Idk. my gibson was a 2000-2003 model brand new. Websites say gibson uses medium jumbo as a standard though. So I am assuming this has got to be it. It is also the standard size kiesel has on their builder, and kiesel is quite known for being the shred metal top g american standard instruments atm with popularity growing as we speak. So i would assume medium jumbo. I researched the specs on my sg and i cant find the specific fret sizes for that build. But I did read on some forums that gibson has used quite a few different fret sizes over the years and people even measure and realize that their older gibsons frets play so well because after heavy use and wearing it in much like a form fitted baseball glove, the frets will "wear down comfortably" to being flatter with the board and more comfortable to play on. Limits of my knowledge on frets for the moment. Shrugs
Fun fact i actually found my gothic sg in a used guitar store one day and was shocked. It was the same exact guitar with the same exact superb playability except, they had filed the frets down suuuuuuuuper low even further to where there was barely any fret at all. It was so easy to play that it was actually a tad harder to play and felt really weird playi g on almost flush frets with like less than 1mm of string gap. If that makes any sense. Definitely great for legato. But it was just crazy finding this guitar and seeing even lower frets than mine and my guitar was already way easier to play than anyone elses and this one with the frets filed down was even more so ridiculous. Even my JS and S series prestige ibanezes i would later get made in japan didnt fret or fly quite like my old gibby. I do say the 24.75" gibson scale versus the standard 25.5" scale is a huge game changer too though. But also the fret wire used. I wish i knew more about the exact finer details and specifics on fret wire.
The biggest reason i like wide frets vs narrow is feel. I get much smoother slides and it just feels better. Even though my finger tips are mainly dead callous and numb, going up and down the strings on wide frets is like going down a regular road. Where tall narrow fell like hitting rumble strips on the road. Some people I am sure like it. Which again is all a matter of the guitarist taste. I prefer rosewood fingerboards or ebony, vs maple, or unfinished wood vs finished wood. Its a feel thing.
Really interesting and educational.
But watching this I just want to see what's going on with that steampunk copper aluminum beauty right there
Awe man. Yes. I have worn frets like your graph. I need crowned. I've had issues sliding up and my fingers grab the outside of the fret. I'm also hearing that slight off tune at times.
Mine are narrow tall. Well classic vibe 60s.
If the contact point shifted towards the tuners, then the string would buzz on the fret. The only time you would have this problem is with extremely worn frets that need a re crowning.
Big frets last longer, and tall narrow frets feel like speed bumps. I refretted my Parker P-38 with super jumbo frets for this reason. The guitar plays much nicer now.
While the topic is something to ponder when determining fret size, it's an *important note that any guitar with standard fretwork is far from perfectly tuned. The difference in the contact point of used and unused is not important when the note is already off pitch. However, this would apply to true temperament fretted guitars, for they have perfect pitch with every note, but nobody's ears can truly detect the difference when it's that miniscule.
Another factor to consider is the wider frets will ware slower than the narrow frets because there is less material for the strings to wear off, therefore wearing the frets down quicker.
yes, but refret is cheaper now and the material is WAY more durable than it used to :)
If you're wearing frets down that often then put on stainless ones.
On the other hand, low-wide frets are the easiest kind to slide barre chords up the neck. We all loved the Gibson "fretless wonder" back in the day.
My guitar teacher had one when I was a kid... It was awesome buttery goodness
Interesting discussion. I thought it didn't matter how wide your frets are (in terms of intonation) because when they are dressed correctly, whether wide or narrow, they will have the same amount of contact area. BUT, now that I hear you talk about frets as they wear, I can see how wider frets (as they wear) can give more intonation problems than narrow frets. On another note, what brand of fret wire do you use? Thanks for another great video.
I like Evo Gold for all mine, that I build How do they compare in this mix.🥑🍋
I am looking for that nice fretbuzz or rasp when you dig in a little on a bass guitar. I have noticed this is much easier on some basses than others. Of course its a about the action being low or high, but I guess it has to be something about the frets as well. If they are wide/narrow etc. What kind of frets should I go for to get the Marcus miller rasp tone when digging in on with fingerstyle. I don't mean slap bass btw, but a similar sound just with digging in with fingers. Thanks
🤷♂️
Why Gibson Ls custom has so low profile frets ? It doesn't have round ones pr maybe it waas used one i looked...🤔
A professional guitarist uses up fret material much faster than the casual player. If you play for fun in your bedroom, maybe a total of an hour or two a week, then your frets will last a very long time. He wasn't talking to you about needing new frets on every couple of years, so calm down, your frets are fine.
Chinese frets don't last long.....very soft......a couple years with a bedroom player.
@@cugir321 All my guitars have Korean frets but I recently bought a Sheraton II made in China, I guess I'll find out.
If you have regular nickel alloy frets, do not use cobalt treated strings. Those strings are meant for stainless steel frets. You will wear regular frets quicker.
My frets say otherwise
Not about wear for me.
I love the Jumbos. My fingers don't hit them when I am sliding up and down the neck like the skinny frets. The Jumbos are also slinkier and easier to bend notes. Also, I believe the Jumbos sound better and harmonics come off them easier.
When you say wide frets, same as jumbo frets...?
Hey Chris, what's your opinions on True Temperament frets? I've seen some builders using them and gluing a fret SEEMS like it ought to have some strength issues besides crowning (for later) problems. I haven't used them myself but it makes me wonder about it.
Goofy. Weird. Unnecessary. Expensive. Inflexible. Five words that sum up why they never caught on.
Well, you talk about perfect intonation in your video, and the effect on it caused by slight fret changes. Fine. But however, that effect is smaller than the rise of (different per string and position) tension of a string being pushed down to the fret, which was never part of the equation. TT just solved that, as goofy as it looks. Also, before hating them, people should dive into the physics of intervals and harmony, which is the reason why a perfectly tuned guitar will never be able to play two chords perfectly where one has it‘s major third on the B string and one the perfect fifth… Anyway, this is why (where I guess we have the point where we totally meet) I say that tuning a normally fretted guitar is searching for the best compromise where no one can hear that every interval is slightly off, but none too far. And also, a good guitarist has to learn intonation by micro-bending and light touch ok the fret that can be pushed when a few more cents are needed.
@@Maschine_Elf Well, fret wear makes playing the guitar harder and makes it necessary to put the strings a little higher, which THEN results in worse intonation. I just got my main guitar PLEKed and I'm stunned how easy that guitar plays now and how flat I can have my strings without outfretting any note. (not trying to over-praise this machine, a good luthier is able to get 99% the same result)
@@Maschine_Elf oh, that is a good point!
04/02/2023: I am a beginner bedroom player. I just bought an Eart T-380 with HH splitable pickups. This guitar sound good to me, and has a lot of features for an inexpensive $400.00 guitar to include stainless steel frets. I have as bad habit of notching fret wires no matter what size, so I though steel would be great for me. But, they are very small, narrow, and highly polished rounded tops, and highly polished rounded ends. The action for 10-46 is very low with no buzzing. They feel OK for me, but will they last is my question to you?
I have no idea. Only you can answer that question.
Why don’t manufacturers put stainless steel frets on so we keep the intonation and longer life?
@@MsDenver2 Cost.
good tip. Guitar in general it is not solid accurate pitch in my personal opinion. you was right about nickel fret. 6 hours a day of play...one year gone!
Well dam I should refret my guitars cause I play hard and know the frets are worn but never thought this was why it sounded off 😬 time to learn to do a new skill
ok so....sorry if youve already got a video addressing this, but why do people want wider frets? im probably going to go google it and see what discussions i find, but it sounds like there are a lot of upsides to narrow/medium frets but...why wide?
how long will evo gold last? how long will stainless steel last?
Average play time 7-10 hours a week on the instrument
Ask Jescar.
I'm a bit heavy with my left hand, that is why I fret all my guitars with 6130 instead of 6150.
It is worse when you press heavily a tall narrow fret than a worn short wide fret. You do not need super hears to hear it.
Obviously stainless steel frets will last more. But they sound different and do not please to everybody.
Then we talk about re fret or re shaping worn frets.
Imo re shaping is a waste of time. The best is to put new frets. I will not explain why, but thrust me. I've done a lot of fret re shaping...
wait... who presses down on the TOP of the fret?? I always press down above the fret so the string is tighter against the fret. am I doing it wrong??
No, you’re not doing it wrong. You’re just failing to grasp the topic. No matter where you press the strings with your fingers, you are pressing them DOWN and their first point of contact is the top center of the frets.
My workhorse is a mim Strat, on which I killed the frets within 2 or 3 years. I relevelled the frets and had to take away a big amount, so they were evenly flat again. So I am thinking about getting new frets. But I am not sure which frets I should take. I mainly play blues lead and rhythm. Now I have narrow frets. Any suggestions?
Go to a guitar store and play all of the guitars until you find the frets you like. Research the guitar to find out what about the frets it has and bingo, you’ll know what to get.
@@HighlineGuitars that's a good idea :) thanks!
Roughly how many re-frets can you get away with before needing to replace the neck entirely?
Coincidentally, it's the same as the number of licks it takes to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll Pop. In other words, it's one of the great mysteries in life. But in all seriousness, I'd say 3-4.
I want a neck that has wider frets for the first 14-16 frets and then more narrow frets after that but the same height. Anyone?
For more room for my fingers high up on the scale.
Okay so narrower frets may be better for intonation... So why are wider frets so popular? Whats the benefit? Slightly slower wear if you dont recrown as it wears? If its crowned to a fine point anyway I dont really understand why they're so well liked?
For the same reason high output pickups are so popular. It's the illusion that bigger is better.
Can you explain if a shop write 24 X-jumbo fret or just jumbo fret. Is there a diffenrence?
What?
Some artists want to swap out regular frets on their bass for Mandolin frets. Why?
🤷♂️
Need to start planning after 12-18 months, means planning 3.5yrs in advanced for most people... That some seriously slow planning. :)
So, for narrow frets intonating longer than wide frets, I guess the trade off is that they don't last as long? Because narrow frets have less metal to wear down than wide? So either the frets go out of intonation faster or wear down faster, either case you're recrowning or replacing them at the same time.
Best tone comes from a wider contact patch, a worn in fret. Bad for intonation, but great tone. NOWADAYS with steel frets, this should be accounted for and built into the fret and fret placement. A very old idea I first thought of the first time I had fretwork done and was dissatisfied with the change in tone and feel. Gibson knows/knew that a flat contact patch makes for a great playing and feeling guitar, have you ever heard of traintrack or schoolbus frets. Gibson did them for YEARS and millions of guitars.
Man... I agree that when the point of contact wears down it sharpens the note a little bit... but all strait fret instruments are a little bit out of tune anyway... so... I dont think it matters a lot for tunning... and if someone says that can hear the diference but didnt heard before that even the perfetcly leveled and dressed frets are out of tunning because its gonna be anyway with strait frets... well its bullsh1t... if you read this comment and think I am incorrect go search about true temperament guitar... its not a perfect solution but looking at it you will be more aware of the real intonation problems of all freted inatruments
I wonder if there is any upside in those pyramid shaped frets then. I guess there is a reason they aren't popular.
Stainless steel? Or is there something better?
Hi Chris! I know it's kinda of an obvious question but if a guitarist uses to much strength to press the frets then he shouldn't use jumbo frets, right?
Just subscribed to your channel, cheers from Brazil!
If you want to use jumbo frets, you have to accept the possibility of intonation problems.
I have a quicker tip. Perfect pitch is scientifically impossible to achieve on straight frets. If you have an ear that good, look into those wacky shaped true temperament fretboards. But I get your poiint. If its starting to sound extra sour, it might be time for a recrown. But you'll probably start wearing strings out quick in those spots long before you hear it.
That's not what the term "perfect pitch" relates to in any way, but okay
Yep exactly I'm going back to the garage
Which are easier to level and recrown?
They’re both the same.
I spent all this money on having my guitar refretted and setup and then the producer goes and puts a Eventide H3000 on my tracks :D
Damn! I got some really worn frets on my favorite guitar. Gotta recrown the frets asap.
And polish them to reduce wear.
That's why I'm going stainless Steel. Fix these problems and extend the lifespan of my fretboards. No brainer IMO
Healthy vibrato can negate that effect to a point Open chord's would be affected the most one would think
My guitars will ALWAYS, be flattened out quick, i get G string dents that are massive dents in tje first 2 months of a brand new crowning. And my frets look like plateaus quickly also . I totally agree with all your feedback, but i also, know, guitars are an imperfect instrument , and even intonating a guitar, is based on the players finger pressure. You can compensate for heavy fret hand pressure pushing things sharp . I also know, anytime i play a guitar with a buzz feiten nut , its almost sterile, how in tune it is . Its not my thing . I prefer a vintage 62 real strat , with all its flaws .
Are you using stainless steel strings?
Stainless steel strings are harder than most Nickel Silver Fret wire, as such the frets take a beating in short order.
Try switching to vintage Pure Nickel guitar string, they might slow down your fret wear issues.
Man I couldn't imagine needing to refret all 6 of my guitars in 3 years.
Given it is going to take microtonal frets, blueprinted to a specific set up, to achieve perfect intonation, this is kind of a moot point!
Very informative, but I think the diagrams don’t indicate how a string looks when it touches the fret. You would be pushing it down onto the fretboard, so wouldn’t there be a sharper angle on the tuner side? You don’t press on top of the fret - you press up against it, or in between frets, depending on your technique.
If you could draw some new illustrations that show what you are describing, that would be great.
@@HighlineGuitars how do I add a drawing or photo? I googled it, but there is no camera icon next to my reply....
@@HighlineGuitars the wider fret would have a wider (worn) contact area so even with the same fingers pressure, the PSI of the contact area is less and therefore also has slower wear. In other words, only some sort of mechanical testing or advanced physical modelling would be able to say for sure which changes the intonation more over time.
Of course what you're saying is correct. As frets wear, they will decrease the distance from intonation and cause a variance in the natural tone. In reality, the distance of so minute that it becomes irrelevant. The player will make more of a tonal variance based off of how much pressure is exerted on the string with his fingers.
Yeah but you dont press the string down on the fret you press in the middle of the two frets so that picture isnt right the string would be going up from the fretboard and over the fret. And i doubt youd be able to notice the difference with your ears or a tuner.
Proper technique requires you to press the string down not on the center of the fret nor between two frets, but right next to the fret.
To have perfect intonation for all notes with normal straight frets on a guitar ist a myth.
That is correct and is the reason we need to do all we can with what we have.
A compensated nut will largely dispel that myth.
@@johnnypk1963 When the frets wear the compensated nut is not valid as much anymore.
Check true temper frets
Eh it's negligible. The guitar is flawed and doesn't have perfect intonation on each fret anyways unless you have True Temperment fretwire system. Either perfectly crowned or flat, it will not be perfectly intune either way.
True, considering inconsistent downpressure of fretting hand being a factor that shifts pitch up slightly anyway.
Throw some vibrato into the equation while we're at it.
The diagram is wrong! The string on the left sife of fret should be going down as the finger presses down the string.
No, the diagram is not wrong. Since I am a left handed player, the diagram is how it will look to me when I look down at the side of the fretboard.
Why do a lot of players say they love fat frets?
Because you don't need to press to hard.
im a stickler unfortunately LOL!
More reason to believe jumbo frets (specifically nickel ones) are just the worst
BS.
Just pressing the fret at a slight angle or pressing with a bit more force would cause much greater intonation differences.
On top of all that guitars do not have perfect intonation, you can get closer with temperment frets. Still, the problems above remain.
True temperament frets - and then watch this video again
I have experience with TT frets. And I also know why they never really caught on.
@@HighlineGuitars Would be great if you can explain this on a future video
@@bocote3119 No need for a video. They never caught on because they are way too expensive and no one can work on them.
Vibrato FIXES EVERYTHING
, except that squelchy wet fart,,, you need a well design cork
If you have a perfectly trained ear and are a stickler for intonation guitar is probably not a good choice for you. Switch to viola instead lol
Dude if anything the smaller frets are going to wear down faster.
Dude, the shift in intonation will still be less with narrow frets than it will be with wider frets.
@@HighlineGuitars mandolin frets
imagine replacing frets once per year
4:00 luthier attempt to secure more income by telling people to “plan” and budget for a refret
I don’t do refrets.
2 thumbs down on this video. Trained ear? Really? C’mon. Plus fix your diagram as nobody frets a note on the wrong side.
In order to give a video two thumbs down, you need to click the thumbs down icon again.
I agree w the concept but your illustration is flawed slightly imho. When u fret a note, your finger goes in back of the note being played. So on a worn flat fret the note would be made slightly FLAT, as point of contact would be on the nut side of fret center. Not the bridge side as show in the illustration which would make the note sharp.
Yup.
That's what the illustration shows. The point of contact on the worn fret is on the nut or tuner side.
Totally dislike the tone of stainless frets. I would rather re fret every year , 6100 jumbos , than get stainless.
the G string is a bad student
The instant you play a single note on your guitar you should be planning on replacing every single part of your instrument. If you even touch it, you should be aware that it will begin to sound like trash within 30-45 seconds. So refretting is pretty much a necessity after the first day you buy it new. So just be aware of that. 🤡
Aha! So being tone deaf is a clear advantage, just as the man admitted! Who's laughing now?
The waste of the frets change the harmonic shinning but the entination you becominng more popist than the pope.
Lmao, what a missleading title.
How is it misleading?
I watched the video again, my mistake. You did mention the different wire and the impact.
@@StankoAx No worries! I do the same thing. Maybe CZcams should allow comments only after the viewer has watched the whole video. Twice!