Should Emulators be Banned in Speedrunning?
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- čas přidán 16. 06. 2018
- I took an Intro to Computer Science class once. It was ok.
Special thanks to Spikestuff, TimpZ, aldelaro5, JMC, mike89, Werster, Tompa, XYX, PistonMiner, GothicLogic, Shenanigans, RWhiteGoose, and bad_boot
Emulators are software made to simulate the environment of consoles to play ROMs of games. It is an ongoing debate on how the speedrunning community should deal with emulator usage as in this video I cover a myriad of different benefits and issues when it comes to allowing them in competition. Hopefully after watching this people will understand why it's controversial and hopefully I'll start to see the question "can I use emulators in speedrunning" far less now.
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I remember a guy who was speedrunning on emulator - then his cat ran across his keyboard and loaded an earlier save file, ending the run
Haha lol, do you have that clip by chance?
czcams.com/video/A294OqAA7Os/video.html
correction it was his dog
@@randyrandalman8234 thanks, I feel bad for him
Felipe Ruiz don’t.. he beat the shit out that dog afterwards. Almost GUARANTEED
the best part is his dog is named Carl lmao
"thanks Carl..."
Q: Should X be banned in Speedrunning?
A: No, never ban anything, make it its own category.
You're welcome.
PongoThomas yooooo that would be fucking wild, the only rule is that you can’t use a cheat that lets you beat the game with the cheat alone
@@cycofoo that'd be so fun to watch lol
@PongoThomas so basically an Any% GameShark mode?
@@cycofoo I'd love to see a GTA SA cheat % run, i know there's the riot% and the flying cars% but with all the cheats it would almost be like the code injection runs on Super mario world
Should cheating be banned in speedrunning?
Honestly loading times shouldn't be included in speedruns
I sorta agree but in my opinion I think that they should have load times count if they aren’t to long but if they are long then yeah the should not count it
Load times aint controlable by the player
We can't judge an speedrunner that ain't rich enough to buy an 2080ti
Honestly some games don't count that like new vegas
But there you dash dash load save load like every 5 seconds to avoid fall damage (the dash glitch can send you very high up)
Most (almost all) PC runs don’t count loadtimes, dunno why consoles do though
@@beni8001 which is really stupid, especially for modern systems, if you want to be competitive playing demon's souls, you have to go out of your way to buy an ssd, clone the ps3's hard rive and replace the drive with the ssd, otherwise you're losing minutes
i still find it hilarious how, "the game plays better so the experience is ruined" is such a big reason.
The games usually don't play better on an emulated system but that's besides the point. It's because it's super easy to mod emulation and tweak gameplay. Speedrun.com said they were going to add PC speedrun section and asked folks to submit and a month later they canceled it because they got more modded/cheat assisted runs than actual legit runs. Same thing will happen with Emulation section. Not only that, you're going to have assholes on there pissed off at each other for "cheating" and everyone will accuse others of cheating because either they were or they got a better score or whatever. Those scores, all of them will be suspect to the point that section will be toxic hellpit and nobody taking that section seriously because of how easy it would be to abuse the software and cheat.
@@JaymeSplendid some games do get better when emulated. breath of the wild for example is far superior emulated compared with the consoles. as for mods, that's a moot point when pc games also have incredible modability. and yet they are allowed. for example, you could easily mod DOOM(og) to run with a no random damage, and it would be borderline impossible to know. and that might've become a problem, if not for most runs being basically pacifist runs on many maps.
@@marcosdheleno WAIT A SECOND. There is a Switch emulator? Or is it BoTW from the WII-U version?
@@HardGuess there are 2 switch emulators, but while both can run BotW, neither does as well as the wii-u emulator can.
however, the wii-u emulator runs it incredibly well, in many cases, far better than either the switch or the wiiu can.
you can get it running at north of 60fps, with incredibly high resolutions.
and then there are the mods you can put, like custom skins, higher stats, dificulty, cell shade off, unbreakeable weapons and so on.
@@JaymeSplendid Games does work better on emulator. Unless the emulator is in beta or early stage.
Eventually emulators will be the only way to play older games. There are only so many NES systems still around for example and eventually they will all die. We have seen his happen to older consoles(atari) where you can basically only use emulators. As far as illegally obtaining roms copyright laws need to change. Many older games aren't available in digital downloads and often times it is nearly impossible to obtain a physical copy of the game or even the necessary hardware to play it.(ET on atari for example)
Older games for which obtaining consoles is difficult should be put into a category in copyright law where downloading roms is perfectly legal as long as they are for personal use and no profits are made. This wouldn't stop the IP owners from making a profit if they wanted to continue to support a game which I feel most wont.
Raggy123 it’s an emulator
not if nintendo can ruin the fun, they been suing every emulation site. they want to ppush their over priced retro consoles with crappy emulation and 20 games on it
What? You can get a Atari sixer for 50. A tv for 1 dollar. and a copy of e.t for 2 dollars. You can still buy all the parts used in a Atari brand new or New old stock.
@darklordster A old TV with a input for a Atari is usually really cheap. Usually they're free on craigslist.
@Raggy123 The rerelease runs an emulator, not actual hardware.
I say that as long as they're in separate categories, it's fine.
This. Not everyone can afford the consoles. As long as runs are labelled appropriately in their own category everyone wins.
Very true
Wise
while is isn't bad on paper the problem here in lies on the fact that it still does kind of ostracize runners mainly due to the fact that there will still be alot less runners and due in state makes the runners feel like there timer is less meaningful. Emulation should always be an option, but separating them i don't think is the correct way to go
Then people will only focus on the “legit” category, and runners in the emu category will feel like they have to spend a bunch of money on consoles that are already declining in population due to age, and capture cards, just to get recognition.
Shouldnt be banned. Makes the speedrunning cheaper and thus more available for people which is good.
Separate them into another category tho if it bothers
I don't even run, but i like watching some speedruns from time to time. I notice that the speedrunning community is very... how do i say it... USA centered.
Like, i get that people will spend money on hobbies either way. But a basic income here is at 250 usd. I don't see why people shouldn't be able to play games on emulators and run them. Feels a little gatekeepey tbh.
I hope it becomes its own category or whatever and everybody can have fun speedrunning games.
@Steven Murphy Yeah that's clearly not what i meant.
@Steven Murphy Your standars of decency are different than ours i guess. Are you mad about something? I don't feel i said anything harmful. You can buy a shit pc and play N64 games on it. What are you exaclty emulating to need a 1k pc as the bare minimun lol.
@Steven Murphy depends on the game
Probably anything N64/PS1 generation and below can run all right.
I practice Super Metroid on a laptop, along with MMX4. No frame drops at all.
It is gatekeeping to ask people to buy expensive stuff just to try and compete.
@Steven Murphy that would apply for emulation of console generations from 2001-present
The souljagame is fine though
Nice
needs its own category tho
Whoever gets their souljagame first wins. I'm going on a year and two months now
Ok First One To Buy Souljaboy Console, And Other Bootleg game Loses.
Two categories:
1. Speedruns using emulators
2. Speedruns using actual hardware
Problem solved.
yeah give the snowflakes their own category and we can get rid of the chaff from the get go. real players relish the challenge we dont try to augment our skills with exploits its pathetic
@@odoggow8157 Such a pretentious asshole lmao
Odog Gow ok big guy
For one, you're splitting a potentially small community even further. For two, there's plenty of ways (described in the video) to have emulators and consoles on the exact same playing field, so why bother? Speedrunning communities kill the fun with so many rule sets.
@@odoggow8157 small peepee
My opinion:
Not banned
But maybe separate cartridge from emulated.
MrSolidBlake you mean category?
@@supercool1312 autocorrecrion from a retro fan.
Speedrun.com already separates consoles from emulators so this is pointless
Good idea
@@alexhardline2208 then why ban emulators out right?
0:21
Ah yes. Speedrunning Bubsy 3d on an xbox one x with a gamecube controller. That is the way to speedrun.
Finally, speedrun
Ah, yes
My favorite arguments on these videos are "Emulation can have faster load times." Yet don't people pick the region a console is from for that, faster dialogue skipping, skipping X.
Speed Running is canceled now. Everything has an advantage.
Honestly, my initial thought was "So emulation offers an advantage...maybe people should just download the emulator and dump their ROM / ISO? Problem solved, you're not longer at the mercy of emulators being better than your official console."
It’s about access tho. As emulation get better, loading times will decrease making every prior run obsolete and forcing everyone who wants to stay at a competitive level to switch over. Everyone can change the language settings on their switch if they want to speed run odyssey. Not everyone has access to an emulator because they may need a computer, some may cost money, etc.
@@ompatel187 but you need to have a computer if you want to submit a speedrun. you can't submit a run through your ps2 or something, you need to use a computer at some point to submit the run. literally anyone who has ever submitted a run to speedrun.com has a computer, because you literally can't submit runs without one.
not to mention, emulation isn't as hardware intensive as you think. hell, even for something like the ps2, you only need to run a ps2 game at 800x600, because that's what the original hardware runs those games at. all those 4k+deinterlacing stuff you see are purely optional.
@@turkler1719 you can use a phone, it is harder tho
to be fair, I already owned the Atari from my childhood
darbian oh really? I thought you had gotten a 7600 for speedrunning my bad:p
Kek
darbian oh crap its darbian
I always had a n64 since I was like 10 or so (born 1998 so it wasn't really my time but I just love old classic games (as you can clearly see on my profile picture))
Haha to be fair darbian that was pretty funny XD
Glad I bought a whole new console for a $100 just so I can beat this video game ten seconds faster. : )
69 likes.
nice
this vid popped up in my recommends today and i was coming to flame it but i already did
People literally spent over $500 for an iQue player just to speedrun Ocarina of Time because Chinese text loads faster
420 likes. Nice
666 likes
Nice
Whole speedrunning community: should we ban emulators
This comment section: Separate times by creating new category
Easy solution to stupid questions
@thunder key Elitism and gatekeeping. You can't join the club if you don't spend hundreds of dollars on hardware, it's not enough to spend hundreds of hours researching and practicing to be considered legitimate.
Not that easy. Emulation isway too easy to cheat and tweak and because of that, everyone will accuse the other of cheating in that section. Guaranteed. It's the fucking internet and if you give people the right forum and atmosphere to become toxic, it will be a fucking toxic hellpit.
Nobody will take those scores seriously and it will become a huge, fighting mess.
The shit gets messy as it is, which is why every speedrunner has to film themselves AND the gameplay at the same time now just so people know with out a doubt that it's being played on the legit hardware and quash any rumors of cheating before it even starts.
People are going to fake their scores on emulated hardware. You know it, I know it, fuck even people who aren't even born yet fucking know it and if they don't cheat, everyone else is just going to assume/accuse that they did.
All scores will be in doubt and it would become too toxic and too much of a hassle to go over those videos way more hardcore than others just to see if there was evidence.
Jayme Splendid Ummm, there are many solutions.
1. Handcams will make emulator cheaters have a much harder time, and should not be hard to enforce at all.
2. People cheat on console too
@@JaymeSplendid your acting like its impossible to cheat on official hardware? Its incredibly easy to do itm
i dont see why you can't just have a second bracket for emulator speed runs ?
They do... this video is pointless
this was uploaded almost a year ago...
what was upgraded -_-@@syddasquidgaming6874
@@ninjaflashboy Think he means uploaded. Doesn't make the video any less pointless. Separate categories for emulators has been a thing for years.
I mean uploaded
If i had a penny for every time someone explained what a TAS is
TAS stands for tool-assisted speedrun.
TAS stands for tool-assisted speedrun.
TAS may also stand for tool-assisted superplay
If only you had some kind of way to streamline the TAS explanation. A TAS explanation TAS, if you will.
@DairunCates: A TASed explanation is called a copypasta.
0:40 "limited edition black smudge on it"
Could not stop laughing xD
Daring Darius you said 0: *40* and u have *40* likes!
@@Vorrimade you right :D
@@daringdarius5686 right? You have 295 likes,congratulations!
Yo,happy 314th like
373rd like
This was very interesting!
Didn't know about those floating point errors - would make an interesting video just collecting different examples of that!
He's a little bit off on that part. Computers are in base 2 so it's not exactly 1/3 it has trouble with. For example 0.1 in base ten goes on forever in base 2. So there are only so many numbers that can be used, reducing precision.
i found it really funny, lol xD
I love how in the thumbnail, the 'Console' version is still emulator. You can tell this by looking at the outlines of the numbers in both of them.
at a certain point, obtaining legitimate hardware will be physically and financially impossible. I doubt that every retro console will last forever.
Collin L i can relate.
I think they should just remove load times and other things that impact speed runs artificially from the record. Would take a lot more work to record times, but would level the playing field significantly.
Stefan Lopuszanski they should, but... how?
They'd have to manually go through and check the time. Or set it up inside an emulator.
Well one of the major issues with emulator vs console is the amount of lag generated, which is completely random and cannot be easily deducted from a run’s time.
They already take the load time out of emulator games. He talks about the software used by streamers to do this in the video. The real challenge would be taking the load time out of a console run.
It should only time the time the player can move
As a speedrunner, both a player and a moderator for various games, I can safely and comfortably say that arguments against emulator usage is nothing more than elitism from people who have all the required hardeware already. Any game that bans emulator use isn't worth your time running. It just shows that the community is toxic, has preferential favoritism (usually in favor of the mods and their personal friends, and wants special "exclusivity" to prevent new people from joining in. Avoid those communities at all costs.
I kinda agree.
I agree with you for retro games
In botw you cant perform some Tricks on the emulator bc the framerate is 60
Next you can get the shiekah slate faster on a console than with a tas on emulator cuz the emulator is not 100% accurate
Also to avoid cheating
Why not just make separated categories for console and emulator and avoid all this trouble :/
A separate category was made, however this video was posted roughly a year ago or so.
@@myhlosic If they didn't have a separate category until a year ago, that's pretty crazy. I'm not sure on the history enough to say.
obviously it should not be banned, but emulation should be its own category, wich it already is in most lists.... but i guess you covered this in the video, wich i will watch now :P
I don't want to sound rude but u misspelled which for the context of the sentence
You*
ah i actually didnt know that it had the "h" in there, so what does "wich" mean? , i know "witch" is something completely different yeah
im dutch btw
raafmaat "Wich" is actually not a word, so your mistake wasn't a bad one, just a simple misspelling. You don't have to worry about that kind of thing online, though, we all know what you meant
Which* mate.
at some point in 20 years none of this hardware is going to work anymore and we're all going to be stuck on emulator anyways. hopefully we've got accurate emulators by that time.
Preach. Talking as a programmer, in my opinion more effort should be put by the devs into making the current emulators future-proof. A simple upgrade of operating system, video card and the like can render an emulator unuseable; it's a real problem now, and things will probably get worse with time.
adv_veo Or a re- realease if the hardware/software
adv_veo i have 2 Atari 2600s from the 1980s and its still in a perfect condition. I thinks consoles are gonna be just fine 20 years from now.
I want these games to be lost in time.
Ever notice how few cars on the road there are from the 60s? in 20 years, you'll start seeing 2600s fail for reasons other than blown caps or dust issues. Even without moving parts, circuits degrade with use.
Keep that in mind next time you play pong :)
Thank you for this great documentary! I love watching speedruns, especially on events like AGDQ and SGDQ and I had always wondered a little about the vast mix of platforms - partially being VC or emulators, or real consoles - and I wondered how well they actually faired against one another in terms of accuracy. Again, thanks for this great video!
This is straight-up journalism right here. I hope you can leverage this work someday, great job!
If Emulators are Banned, its only a matter of time, until Speedrunning for ANY console dies. That‘s why i am against banning emulators. There should be another category instead.
and why exactly does it matter if speedrunning dies? It won't because it's a hobby and people will always do it.
I think a consensus of load time advantage could help the situation, based on hardware performance specs
Alowishus I guess his reasoning is that as time goes on, less of those old, no longer produced consoles will be available until it’s almost impossible to get one.
do you guys not realize that you can do whatever you like in speedrunning? it can't die just because some nerds say "emulators are banned". Even your argument of there should be another category doesn't even matter. Speedruns aren't some sanctioned activity. You can just do whatever. It doesnt matter. It can't "die".
Let's formulate it differently: If you want your speedrun result to be recognized by a group, you have to play by their rules. if they won't allow emulators, any emulator run will not be on their leaderboard.
So even if you beat a WR in half the time, it is only worth something to those who recognize that time.
Personally, I believe most speedrunning communities should do what Pokemon community did, and make their own forks of 100% accurate emulators that are designed ONLY for speedrunning that don't allow savestates, speed options or recording/loading inputs, ram viewing, and would check hash value of its EXE on startup to eliminate possibility of modding. Then require a controller webcam on TOP of that.
However, we can go even further.
If we wanted to be extreme, perhaps emulator would be designed to produce a 'verification file" after each run, which would be an encrypted file containing the full list and timing (both in frames and in real time, to ensure lag is correct) of inputs in a run, hash value of the used ROM file, and a hash value of the EXE file of the emulator itself. The file would be encrypted with a key that isn't publicly known - known only to the creator of the emulator, and people who validate the runs.
Perhaps one could create an 'emulator generator' - a program that takes the base code of said speedrun-viable emulator, and generates a unique version of it, that will encrypt verification file with a different key, and as its code will change, it's EXE will have a different hash value - and people could share that EXE within a specific community. Community for each specific game could create an UNIQUE emulator that would be legal ONLY for that one game (but would share 99% of its code with versions from other communities that play games on the same console). Since each encryption key would only work for one game/community, it would make extremely hard to learn it and modify the files, ESPECIALLY for outsiders/newcomers/kids who would be most likely to cheat.
I know it's a lot of work, but that's the only feasible solution I could think of to COMPLETELY eliminate the possibility of cheating when using emulators, at all.
I really like the idea of only allowing community made forks. I mean how hard would it be to REMOVE tools from an emulator and just leave in what's useful for speedrunning? It wouldn't. Interesting comment.
EZScape - and most emulators are open source anyway.
I came here to say this ^.
And the great part of this is that it not only makes emulator play MORE verifiable than console runs, but even more accessible. A single installable program with all the right settings already enabled removes even more hurdles from newbies, making it easy to get into speedrunning.
What yo wainting, start this project and put it on github.
What if you use a program like the Cheat Engine that can modify RAM addresses of the games while it's running in emulator? If you already know the RAM numbers of where stuff is stored then you could just use a trainer, no?
I like the idea of having logs that can spot stuff like this, though.
0:21
Console: Xbox
Controller: Nintendo Gamecube
Game: Playstation
*seems legit*
Bubsy 3d
Ok here's my idea:
1. Ban all officially released versions of the game
2. Only allow one specific emulator for a game
3. If emulation for the game has evolved enough, standardize the platform that the game is emulated on, that way you can just spend 100-200 dollars on a mini computer instead of spending all kinds of money on the specific version of the game, the console, the optimal controller, etc... (Also games on the same console would preferably try to share the hardware that they use to make purchasing a new console less important.)
4. Permanently affix a 360° orb camera on the top of the runners head so you can *always* know what they are up to
5. Require various probes and indicators be inserted into the runners hardware and visible at all times so that the exact voltage of the board components can be read.
6. Have the runner submit their computer harddrive for analysis
7. Require that the runner must be hooked up to a lie detector and interrogated about the legitimacy of their run in order for it to get submitted to the leaderboards (again, preferably the interrogation techniques would be standardized between games of similar genre to help new runners be more comfortable.)
8. Require all runners to cough up vouchers from atleast two friends (cannot also be speedrunners) saying that they did not, nor have they ever, cheated in anything in their entire life, ever.
You're god
That is the dumbest thing i heard today!
I want some of what you've been smokin
it still boggles my mind that it is illegal to download a copy of a game that is no longer being sold by the company who made it, but legal to profit from selling used cartridges for way more than the MSRP.
jan409 This makes no fucking sense. If you had a car factory that stopped producing cars, would it be unethical to sell those existing cars second hand? Would it be ok to steal one since they're not made anymore?
poika22 Lol, wouldn't it be more like creating an exact copy of someone's 20-year-old car to use for myself, without depriving them of the car?
poika22 a rom is a digital good, as long as you don't want to have it on a cartridge you can replicate it infinite times without cost and without taking anything away from anybody.
Poika22 that's a false equivalency and you know it.
poika22 I think it should be legal to steal a car that you can't buy anymore, if by stealing you mean touching the car, count up to 10 and you get your own copy of that car.
So wait.
The Pokemon community made their OWN EMULATOR for speedruns? If that could be done for other games, wouldn't that solve a lot of problems?
no because it could still depend on how good your computer is. Me getting a few frames more than you could make a huge difference in times.
Some games are easier to emulate then others. PS3 games are infamous for how horrible they run on PC and how hard it is to translate their codes over to pc.
but its illegal to downloade roms...
Patrick true but the legal fees it would cost to sue someone for using the rom of a game is too costly. Also they wouldn't get anything from sueing you since you aren't cheating them off any money because you can't buy the console or game from them anymore.
it is still illegal, so it should be banned
Imagine timing Usain Bolt based on how fast he can run and adding how long he takes to get ready from the locker room to the track to the overall time.
Using save states can be an amazing way to practice speedrunning, specially if you struggle with an specific part of the game, with save states you can practice that one super hard part of the run over and over again until you got it right
They should be a separate category, but not completely banned.
a separate category only if they vary from the original
Active websites that only recognise runs on true hardware will be forced to accept emulators, as the original hardware will degrade and there will eventually be none left. But to be fair, most communities accept emulation, even if it’s in its own category.
you are talking about ba time in wich hardware emulation is a thing. so whats ablut hrdware emulators xD? are they allowed or not because they mimic the SNES for example so technical perspectiv the consoles wont die so soon
Spooky Lemon:
What’s with everyone saying consoles will degrade? Not trying to be rude, I’m just genuinely curious. I mean, as time goes on, this break down, that’s a given, but it happens very slowly especially on metallic objects. Roman statues and temples still stand, some near pristine and unchanged 2000 years later. So I’m just wondering why people are so worried that in 20 years or whenever, all consoles are going to be a pile of dust or something to that effect? I am a game collector, and sure, some cartridges I own are inconsistent and especially early disc games are a crapshoot for functionality, but that’s mostly due to human errors, like mishandling a console, faulty repair jobs, or scratching discs.
I mean, the only way to bypass the emulator vs hardware, is for a speedrunner website to make a console themselves that automatically captures games and has a certain amount of emulators on, with official emulators being given through the website that would leave a watermark somewhere in the corner of a screen.
@@st.6413 Tons of things can go wrong with circuitry, not to mention pins, contacts, and solder. Accidents, fires, power fluctuations, even dropping it ONCE, can potentially damage or destroy components. You could probably repair or replace most bits but sooner or later the data itself will decay. Again, you can technically stave that off but 99% of people have no clue how to go about that, let alone even know of the issue. You'll have fewer and fewer until the pieces that are still working are in collections. That might take a hundred years but it will happen.
@@st.6413 Are you seriously comparing a piece of marble to a computer? a marble statue can crack and still be a statue, a console can get a particle on dust in the wrong place and get completely fucked up
And considering that Nintendo never release the blueprints for one, it's not like we could just restore it
"Now, it's only ten dollars. There really isn't any excuse to not being able to afford it."
Speedrunners that aren't above 18 and can't get jobs (me):
If you live in the USA you can legally get a job at 13.
@@raeesmohammed6080 where on like walmart?
@@khas6835 im not sure where as it varies by state. Im in nyc so granted my options were more varied than some others
OMG... Spyro speedruns are my favorite, and what I'm always hoping to see! I have a 14 talisman speedrun on my channel with a PS1 emulator (:
Not to mention, with a little trickery, you can use TAS on hardware, too.
All you need is a cheap Raspberry or Arduino, either plugged or soldered to controller pins,
even if not emulating the controller itself. Have fun.
Software for TAS is much more readily available on the internet
That's always my fear watching handheld game speedruns, because theres some tapping into hardware to capture video, what else was tapped?
Here's a little lesson in trickery~
@@slushierr ~this is going down in history~
doesnt people run tas on real hardware as well?
I don't even speed run games, yet I watch every one of ezscapes videos all the way through. Always quality content here, I appreciate that. Thank you for making good videos, CZcams nowadays needs this.
flopkin same I just like the community and find it interesting.
Well, I care :)
I usually read just about every comment, and although discussion of the video is what will be expected of the most, I love reading comments like these. So thank you guys, I'm glad you enjoyed it!
EZScape Hey thanks for replying man! Have a beautiful life!
same here
you guys have glitchless, any%, 100%, etc....why not emulator, console, and anyform categories?
The funny thing is that there already is an emulator category, it's a bloody checkbox when you go to submit a run on speedrun . com!
you have to understand that, ALOT of people have an elitism bias against emulators. they see it as "evil". so they dont want emulators out of principle, more than due to any real reason against it.
its kinda like the people who defends smoking but are against pot for being a drug...
Happy two year anniversary to this video for everyone that had just this recommended to them now!
Its not just speedrunners that help out emulator development. They're a big slice, yes. But the loudest voices will be the ones demanding accuracy, which is what emulator developers strive for. Banning them within speedrunning is sort of like kicking the ones that show the most care for data preservation and allowing gamers and speedrunners alike to enjoy console games longer...in the teeth. Hardware only lasts so long. If you have an emulation accuracy issue, report it, they'll listen. After all, the speedrunner is a big slice of the reason they still exist. They are the most capable of noticing...and accurately reporting inaccurate emulation, and therefore hold the most potential to provide proper data needed for bugfixes.
If only N64 emulation will get better. Last I checked, Project 64 can only run a few games accurately. I remember Project 64 killing my interest to emulate Majora's Mask because the timer on a mini game was running to damn fast. I've since then only relied on VC and a Ever Drive 64 to play any games on real hardware.
@Knobcore Not with modern solders they won't. Tin whiskers will eventually get that original hardware even if it's maintained.
Personally I just don't get why people cheat on speedruns. You put your record up as something you're proud of and worked hard at. What satisfaction is there in cheating? You feel witty that you suckered a bunch of people that trusted you? I just couldn't live with myself
Certain runners get more popular with better runs, like a lot of modern streamers or old "legends" like Todd Rogers. This can lead to business opportunities, sponsorships or donations. Pride is only a reason for some people.
Fame and money
What evil lurks within the hearts of men?
If you're already good enough that passing off a fake run actually makes sense, it's the sense that "you can do it anyway" so it doesn't matter.
@@Elitist Then do it and don't cheat lol
you make some lulzy conclusions. "emulator devs dont care about accuracy"; that is the priority of many of the well respected emulators. Look at Higan or Messen.
Se are talking abot decimal floats here, most devs are worries with collision detectision And graphics glitches
Most*. There are emulator for causal plays and emulaores for speedrun
@@Galomortalbr moron haha
Didn't realize this was an old video until the random RWhiteGoose shoutout. It's like seeing old TV make a positive reference to Bill Cosby
@Jonathan Aviles he got exposed for asking about the jewish question, as well as being a literal fascist
you can read about it here: imgur.com/a/X7qLRXa
As someone who did emulator speedruns of SMB1 I have some ideas on this. It really depends on how the emulator is timed compared to its console counterpart. For SMB1 the emulators we use do play at the same exact framerate as the console so they can be compared in the same level and do not require a separate category. For something like N64 the emulators unfortunately do have some advantage and for those I agree do require seperate categories. But there certainly is no blanket statement for all speedruns and should be done case by case within their respective communities.
Another very nice and informative video on speedrunning. Well done.
I still don't understand why we can't make seperate categories. That's the solution for most of these "yes or no in speedrunning" problems.
FanmaR most communities do that, but this is more about whether it should be included in the main leaderboard.
MeadowLion Answer yes. Make the emu speedrubs their own subsection and it won't interfere at all with console
Nice videos and series. You my good sir just earned a sub. Thank you and good day
Not banned, just given separate categories. Easy.
Next question.
i would say the egg, since you did not specify who was that egg from.
Also, if you mean a chicken egg, then in that case, the egg aswel because for a chicken egg to exist, some sort of life form must have placed it, and in that case, the evolution from whatever the fuck to chicken must have taken place during one of the egg placements.
John Freeman? I think i know what that's referencing...
Alright, what's the best game ever made?
correct.
W E P O N
Well, that first trick (Groovy Boss Kill) is no different on console and emulator, other than the 60.09 vs. 59.94 fps difference. We have no issues allowing emulator for Super Mario World speedruns, provided no advantage is gained that can't be achieved on console and the emulator is accurate enough.
Hey, it's Dode! I spotted sempai!
Oh I didn't even notice you here Dode! I actually didn't include that trick because it's related to the video, I just saw it and went "wow people need to see this".
Haha, I'd agree. It's a nice party trick to show to people who aren't as familiar with the game. Just thought I'd clear up for anyone who might question emulator validity for SMW. Nice video!
What's the timestamp? Not sure which trick you're talking about!?
YouLoveBeef 0:00
I've just found this channel and already love it
8 days exploiting a glitch. Not a speedun. I's a slowrun
It's a Meme%. Like a JOTWAD run in Twillight Princess. (Go watch Gymnast86's video if you want a good laugh)
Pannenkoek2012: builds up speed for 12 hours to complete Watch for Rolling Rocks in 0.5 A presses
Its a speedrun in the sense that it was literally the only way to beat the game under those conditions.
I think one the problem of this issue is that people tend to forget that the point of an emulator is to actually imitate the original hardware. Dismissing them completely is for me an error. This ability vary a lot with the concerned console. For example, nowhere near leaderboards should Dolphin or PCSX2 be (or at the very least in separate categories), whereas NES and Game Boy emulators are both able to perfectly emulate their respective consoles. And this is without taking account that the emulation can vary even by games. I think that if the generated input file works on the originals console and game, then it is legitimate. Also, emulation caused most cheating techniques to appear, but it could also be the way to counter them : by imposing an emulator that have been verified by the community, you could monitor everything the runner is doing. You could for example have that emulator needing to be connected to a server while emulating, ensuring people are using the official software to do the run. This would also be way more efficient than showing the emulator used on the video stream, which is blatantly amateurish.
The thing people don't get is that anything you can do to "cheat" on an emulator you can pretty much do with a modded console. And unless the run verfiers are gonna fly out and physically check the consoles not modded then there's no way to check. I honestly say let dishonest people be dishonest and stop trying to regulate them with more rules that only end up hurting the honest people. Eventually the dishonest persons gonna get caught, rules only apply to the people who choose to follow them in the first place.
exactly , also , what about spliced runs ?
easily do able on consoles , just record every level of a game and then splice them together
saying a console run cant be faked is foolish
Exactly, when I was a kid we had an Xbox that would play all kinds o GBA, NES, SNES, N64, and other games. That's an "official console" though so yeah no, you can easily mod a console just as you can mod a pc.
XerShade But its much harder and puts a barrier for cheaters. Anyone can tas a run easy on emulator or put on cheat engine to manipulate rng, but consoles don't have that. The closest thing is game shark and most of them don't work anymore.
Jon Really, then you are not looking hard enough. In fact since most consoles use SSDs and SD cards now it's MUCH easier to tamper with the game, same as on PC.
Im pretty sure that I can program an arduino to play shit for me on an old console.
Well, I have some input for the float rounding mode emulation on PC. It is very very possible to emulate the exact float rounding mode used on console with little to no performance impact on modern CPUs. Even something like converting a float to a double, using the higher precision to perform the arithmetic, and then truncating back to single precision float using the desired rounding mode. With extensions like SSE3 and AVX this can be performed with minimal performance impact, because although more instructions are required, they can be parallelised (assuming someone wants to get their hands dirty and write some x64 assembly.)
Not to mention CPUs are still getting considerably more powerful (though we are reaching transistor size limits), and a lot of high end CPUs are already very much capable of high accuracy emulation without any loss in performance, especially when it comes to older hardware emulation.
Good video. You handled a complicated and interesting topic of debate very well.
Banning emulators is an elitist attitude if you ask me. I vehemently disagree with RWhiteGoose on his views of emulation and I think it's a bad position to have. I still like the guy and sub to his stuff, but god do I hate when he talks about emulation. For most classic consoles, emulation is close enough to perfect emulation on at least one of the various emulators available. Exceptions do exist. Anytime no accurate enough emulator exists, that's when you split leaderboards. If a particular game is not emulated properly on an otherwise accurate emulator, that's when you split leaderboards. However in most cases, there's no reason to split emulation and actual hardware until you can see a huge disparity in the runs submitted. If emulation is consistently holding the top 10 places in a leaderboard with hundreds of submissions, then maybe split that leaderboard.
On newer consoles like PS2 or GameCube and newer then I can see reasons to automatically split all leaderboards. There is usually only one viable emulator for newer systems anyhow and those emulators are usually still works in progress and focused more on getting things working than optimizing accuracy.
tl;dr: Each community can and should ban *certain* emulators, but to blanket ban them is stupid and elitist. Splitting the leaderboards is the better solution and even then only if reasonable evidence can be provided that there is a significant impact on submitted times.
Emulators shouldn't be banned since they're incredible ways for people to get into the game and run it with low cost, they should however be categorised independently from consoles. "Close enough" leaves an error margin of non-zero compared to the console itself. You're putting different classes of car on the track, it's not a fair race. Competitive speedrunning is different to hobbyist speedrunning.
inb4 category bloat. The popular categories get ran for a reason, if emulator does well then it'll become the popular category. Don't see a problem.
Also: “Banning emulators is elitist.” Elitism is what you want in a competition. 100% just have to accept it. People not making the cut is the price paid for having standards. If you want to join a club, meet the membership requirements.
Just use a replica cart because they act 100% the same as the original.
@Daniel Well, the hunt for the fastest console version here sort of proves that "putting different classes of car on the track" is already an issue. And I'm not saying there aren't issues with doing it this way, but the fastest class turning up to be the most widely available one to get into the race would not be the worst option.
And there you have Ocarina of Time, where an emulation only glitch, and therefore not posible on original hardware, is the current WR holder.
The OoT rules are fucking trash thanks to Cosmo.
"how dare you not spend hundreds of dollars to do a challenge. For shame!"
There wouldn't be anything to challenge if everyone thought that way...
Justuas Oh yeah, forgot that you had to spend thousands of dollars just to show off your talents
What a stupid statement
its like complaining that you have to have a car to win a race
Runslik3Wind Not necessarily?
Runslik3Wind You know race cars aren't owned by the driver's right? I.e nascar,F1, etc
They shouldnt be
Speedrun.com already seperates console/VC from emulators. (Basically seperate category)
Anyone who thinks that emulation should be banned in speedrunning hasn’t ever considered that old gen consoles aren’t being produced anymore
Official releases of the game, including official re-releases for other devices, should at most be subcategorized imo. If emulators are both popular and accurate, they also fit well into a subcategory.
Examples where this works include Super Mario 64 and Plants vs. Zombies 2, and I don't know of a case where a subcategory doesn't work
Aren't there more emulator speed runners then old console speed runners?
Depends on the game
Hey it's that Skazzy community guy. Where you been?
Should you alienate 90% of your casual speedrunners?
No.
Justin Koenig indeed.
I'd rather alienate 90% of speedrunners than have 100% of leaderboards shitted on. You can still practice on an emulator before buying the real thing if you're curious. It's not like any "casual" speedrunner is going to break WRs. By the time you're good enough to qualify for leaderboards you've already put so much time into the hobby that getting a real console should be a no-brainer.
poika22 people like you are disgusting in my opinion, why should people like me be completely locked out of speedrunning only because I don't have money to spend? Elitists like you make me vomit.
"I'd rather alienate 90% of speedrunners than have 100% of leaderboards shitted on."
ah yes I too want my hobbies to die quick painful deaths due to my dipshit dumbfuck pride. go comb your neckbeard dude.
Guys I'm poor too. At least I'm not butt-hurt about it.
I just love how your thumbnail is the Wii VC
Another issue with timing accuracy from console vs emulators has to do with the way some consoles actually tried to keep their timing. The SNES used a synthetic quartz timer to my knowledge. After all these years those oscillators have become less and less consistent on the original hardware. Because of the aging of the console, the oscillators have become less accurate causing long pauses in some cases. This is why some TAS runs have the TAS pause much longer than necessary.
Emulators 'can't' be banned from speedrunning, they're too widely accessible to be stopped and are an excellent entry point for runners.
However, they should always be categorised differently to console runs. Easier to manipulate and cheat with, run games in states that are impossible to match with official release, etc.
Speedrunning is a hobby so if you're looking to just beat a game as fast as possible under whatever criteria you want then more power to you, do your thing. Competitive speedrunning with curated leaderboards, however, is a different realm and if you want your name up there, you have to jump through the hoops laid out.
Except those hoops have expiration dates.
Lowlightt Not sure I understand what you’re getting at, my man.
Daniel Scholes Agreed
you mean... like they already do? O.O
Daniel Scholes I could be wrong, but I think lowlight is talking about how old games and consoles become more and more scarce over time. Which would mean at a certain point, the hoops you mentioned to compeat would be practically gone given enough time. (Personally I don't share this opinion, but it's what I'm assuming that's what his point was)
I'm just now getting into speedrunning the game 'Gimmick!' and I would definitely buy a famicom, controller, and game to play it- except the game costs about $450 used and unboxed, and a LOT more if it comes with the box or is in good condition.
You deserve more subs! Great vid
I just found out my Grandmother still has most of my old game systems. Almost everything from SNES to PlayStation 2 but they're nothing but, "Gameboys" and "Game Machines" to her.
Is there a speedrun category for the Atari 2600 emulator built in minecraft?
Krisha Actually nah i don't think so, maybe WHITOUT MINECRAFT! If you wanna know how, then get YOUR BACK IN A CHAIR AND SEARCH THE EMU YOU NEED! *dabs* (sorry if this May has offended you, but I was bored and i really didn't wants to offend anyone;-\)
+Krisha Actually if there isn't..there should be!
I never understood why most communities don't separate Console, Emulator, and VC, it's like they want to ruin the leaderboards.
VC is emulator though
Lyra Levinston Yeah this bothers me as well.
"Who still has an original Atari....?"
but not this guy
Not that guy ^
Damn you put a lot of work into this
Retro collecting bloat is still a thing, though it's finally going down a bit. Let's say if you want to speedrun Earthbound. Yeah, good luck getting that game for a reasonable price.. Or as someone living outside of the US, let's say if the US version is the best version of that game for some reason and u need to import. That's even more money and you might need to fork out for a Power Step Down Voltage Converter depending on the console.
You made this point but I think it's the biggest point in favor for emulators.
Just waiting on N64 DD prices to die down.
This has nothing to do with the comment or the video, but at first glance I thought your picture was the penguin from toy story. But I think you make an excellent point
that is true but reproduction carts can help a bit got Earthbound for $15 for now till i can finally find an official one for a good enough price
Maybe in 10 years speedrunners will spend hundreds on game boys that are still in working condition, and possibly faster than degraded ones
Nintendo has re-released Earthbound on multiple platforms over the past few years. You can download the game on the North American Wii U and 3DS eshops, plus it's also included on the SNES Classic as well. I'm not a speed runner so I'm not sure if these options for playing the game would be legitimate, but at least it's another option.
Thanks; this was interesting. I knew about the differences between consoles and emulators, but I had no idea about the small timing differences between different console revisions. That's pretty nuts that people feel like they have to shell out hundreds of dollars just to shave off a second or whatever. The fact that those differences exist even in the hardware world certainly suggests that emulators should be allowed, though. Maybe someone could come up with a method of cryptographically signing a run in such a way that it'd prove that it wasn't spliced together, pause wasn't used, etc.
Something you didn't cover is using Modded Hardware. This day in age, almost every classic console can be soft modded to play a burned ISO to a DVDR or CDR, or a ROM played off an SDCard/USB/Internal/External Hard Drive.
This is something I've done recently. I tested on Emulator first to make sure my YuGiOh Forbidden Memories modded ISO worked, and did a full play through, but then converted it to the PSP format to play on my modded PSP and also put it on my PS2 hard drive which has FreeMcBoot on it to play PS2 and PS1 ISO files off the hard drive. My PS3 has the modded ISO on it as well since its Jailbroken. Even my Galaxy S7 can play it via emulation.
Point being, there's a lot of modding communities out there, and a lot of smart people. Even on-console runs can be faked via modified ROMs/ISO Images if you don't physically see the game before the run starts and just assume its a legit copy on a non-modified console.
When it comes to Sega Dreamcast, there's public tutorials on how to slightly overclock the CPU. Even a slight overclock lowers load times on games meaning over the course of a 2 hour speed run (for example), you could save 30 seconds or something just to load screens being faster and lag being less.
MLG players have gotten their entire teams banned from tournaments in the past as well by hiring hackers to modify Mouse and Keyboard firmwares to inject modded code to games during tournaments!
All in all, the honor system still is there, its just not fool proof. There will always be a way.
I had no idea the PlayStation 2 has settings like that.
It'd be nice to have links to the first two parts of this series in the video description.
Good call! If you go to the card linked at the top right of the video they are listed there too
Ah yes, cards. I can't stop forgetting about them. Thank you :D
Why not just only record the actual gameplay and exclude the loading times?
gammkrab
some games have their physics tied to the frame rate. Example would be fallout 4.(sorry one I could remember was fallout 4)
msr47gaming
That doesn't answer the question though?
@@Gamesfan34260 that is more common on PC, but if I were to split times excluding load times from console it would have to be done in post editing (a no no in speedrunning). And if the black load screens were 120 frames (4 seconds) but I stopped the timer for 130 frames of load screen, I would save 1/3 second every load screen. Autosplitters that remove load times use the computer RAM as the start-stop controller, removing the human cheating element.
The above guys point is that you could increase game speed on emulator by having a higher frame rate. Example being star wars pod racer is physics locked to framerates. The game runs at 100% speed at 30 fps. If you ran it at 45 fps it would run 150% speed. So a cheater could run at 31-32 fps and the game would run 3-6% faster and therefore he gets a 3-6% faster time. Most people wouldn't notice 1 fps faster.
Because then you can't tell if they skipped something else. If there are skips in the video then you can't tell if they were cheating
Benjamin don’t need to skip the loading screens just not count them in the time recorded as a world record/attempt
So where do FPGA consoles fit in here? (AVS, Analogue, etc.) Would be great to discuss in a future followup video.
I can only do this on emulator since it's too costly for me , even 10$ is too costly i.e I'm indian we are too poor 😭
aw damn
It seems like in speedrun communities, whenever someone makes a WR they start banning methods/glitches/emulators that that person used.
"I'm don't hold"
Nerd hierarchy in full effect, I guess.
Bree The V. Wait how did you edit your comment without getting the "edited" tag
I hate weebs No clue, cause I didn't touch it... not sure how that happened.
I don't have nay knowledge whatsoever of speed running, or leaderboards, but I think the best solution is separate categories. the beginning bit, about the "best running consoles" really states that emulators should be allowed. thats my 2 cents. also, I feel like EZ would be a great commentator for smash bros games, or the like. have a good day, and please stay positive in the comment section. creators are looking for critical feedback, not toxic waste. BYE!
Soooo, who's guaranteeing that people don't use modded consoles for faster clock speed to get faster loading times/higher fps/less lag to get better records? Or modded roms on their cardridges? if cheating or getting an advantage is a problem with emulators, who's to say people desperate for a world record won't mod their console or use a modded repro card?
Hence why speedrunning is kinda stupid. Its full of cheaters willing to do that kinda stuff just to hold some pointless record
@South Paw well yeah, almost everything people do competitivly is full of people cheating to get an edge. Its all stupid to be fair lol
It really amazes me that load times are included at all in the total time, especially with consoles using optical media, since different revisions of the same console can have different drives which can be faster or slower than another revision, which on its own can skew total run times.
I think the answer to all of these questions is let the community of people that have expansive knowledge about the game decide
Either they need to allow emulation, or have categories for different regions, and version numbers when feasible.
Leave it to the states, but for video games.
If you want to play (or speedrun) Snatcher, you'd have to pay $500~ for the game, a Sega Genesis & CD, Capture Device, a good-running PC that can handle streaming it all...
Or, just get it on emulator for free...
Piracy is sounding a hell of a lot better. Like I'd ever pay $1,000 for a video game that was once $50, to hell with rarity and collection. I just want to play the damn game. lol
Yeah most folks out there do not have the space for the console and games like others have. Let alone a gaming setup with the console the capture device and the Computer. Plus the TV/monitor.
Most people who would get on your ass about this want to waggle their moneycock and nothing more. They aren't in it for the speedgame, they're in it to go "look how much I own".
My opinion, games should be played and not picking up dust on a shelf for years 'not' being played. lol
No you wouldnt. Sega CD doesnt have any copy right protection. Nice try though. why the fuck would you speedrun snatcher any way?
I was referring to universal piracy.
People speedrun all kinds of games, those which you wouldn't expect. I only used Snatcher as an example since it's an expensive game, the one that popped up in my head first.
I'm not even close to good enough at speed-running to get to leader-board level. I can do what I feel is an impressive speed-run for the first two Mega Drive Sonic games (using the PS3 release), doing the first game in 34 minutes (without glitches), provable as I have the trophy on PSN which requires a speed-run in under 40 mins. The second game I can do in 49 minutes though I have no proof for that as I wasn't signed in to my PSN at the time sadly, will need to redo it for the trophy some day. Lastly, I managed a sub 1 hour run of Shovel Knight on my PS Vita, finishing in 58 minutes. Got the Platinum trophy back in January and it's my proudest trophy on PSN so far. Working on a few more games at the moment, not sure what my next speed-run challenge will be. Beat and earned the Platinum in Celeste but that didn't have a speed-run trophy or any speed-run challenge in place so I took it relatively slowly. It will have to be something I really love, like with Sonic and Shovel Knight for me to go for a speedrun on it. Was considering trying to go for one on Axiom Verge, also on Vita; I'd need to practice it a lot more though...
Like I say I'm not leader-board material, but I do enjoy trying to master certain platformers (it's my chosen genre). There are some games I where I look on with amazement though; like Super Meat Boy. I've managed to beat the game. Got the trophy titled "The End", that'll do me. It's just beyond my skill sadly; great game though. Honestly, once you're competing at the level where shaving seconds or even frames off the run makes a difference; frankly I can't relate. You're basically machines at that point. It's brilliant, but I don't have the time or skill to ever learn a game that completely and I'm OK with that.
2000 people don't appreciate hard work..
Great video man.
"limited edition black smudge" Haha. I like it.
EZScape, this made me think of when people use different versions of the same game. For example, if the Japanese release of a game is slightly different than a US release, how does that apply to the rules? Are there different categories based on what version you have?
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. It depends on the game :)
The "separate categories" solution is probably the simplest and the most fair one
I am interested in speedrunning some games, but I have no idea what kind of equipment I should get to record a speedrun. I am thinking perhaps connecting a console to a destop PC and try recording footage that way would be the way to go, but: - I don't know how its done or where to start - how to make sure to proof I play legimately, but retain a good video quality and frame rate - get the parts for a reasonable price I would also like to use that PC for programming or video editing. I haven't had a destop PC for over a decade.
99% of emulators are open source, why not just get an emulator and remove anything that could cause unfair advantage whilst adding a watermark to prove that emu build was used on the run. Upload this emulator to the relevant communities and make it a rule that this build of emulator must be used in all emu class speed runs, any runs that are missing the watermark will be automatically disqualified from the leader boards.
I know this probably isn't a perfect solution but it would make it a lot more difficult to cheat using an unauthorised version of the emulator - ie the runner would have to watermark each and every frame individually in order to pass his run off as genuine.
What in 10 years from now, you can't run this particular version of the emulator because it is not compatible with your new hardware or OS? What if there is a bug in emulator that is spotted years later? What if you speed run dozens of games, and you need to have dozens of different versions of the same emulator on your system?! Also it is open source, so you can rewrite parts, remove watermarks, add minor speed tweaks to change emulation speed, without ability to detect, etc. etc. How about people just stop cheating instead, and report honestly what they run?
If you seriously expect people not to cheat at anything then you are in for a nasty wake up call, with some people winning is everything and they will achieve that by any means necessary which is why we are having this conversation.
@@proffessorX rules and baning emulators etc will not change that.
using only one version of an emulator and adding rules is to simply remove variation. As any engineer or scientist will tell you variation is bad, even speed-runners rely on consistency in order to accurately reproduce skips and frame perfect jumps etc.
because emulators are illegal and not the same as the original game
When your girl's father isn't home 3:31
Jinsang-Solitud. That's the album playing at the end!