Thank you once again for being the perfect host, Johanna! It's always a pleasure to chat with you. And a big thanks to Matt for gifting us Lord of Light -- and even being thoughtful enough to send us the edition with the cool cover!
I'm so glad you read the first paragraph! It drew me in instantly. Then this quote sealed the deal: "It is said that fifty-three years after his liberation he returned from the Golden Cloud, to take up once again the gauntlet of Heaven, to oppose the Order of Life and the gods who ordained it so. His followers had prayed for his return, though their prayers were sin. Prayer should not trouble one who has gone on to Nirvana, no matter what the circumstances of his going. The wearers of the saffron robe prayed, however, that He of the Sword, Manjusri, should come again among them, The Boddhisatva is said to have heard…" Thank you so much for chatting about this book. I read it for the first time this year and I absolutely love it. This was a great video! Big spoiler below for anyone that hasn't read it. . . . . . . . . . I cried at the end of Rild's fight with Yama. Few things have hit me that hard. I was just reading it again and had to stop because I couldn't see. Like Sam said, Yama killed the true enlightened one that day. Absolutely tragic.
Yes, I appreciate that opening so much! Rild's death was so unexpected and tragic. That was a very poignant moment. Thank you so much for sharing that!
My favorite comedic segment of the book often gets missed by readers. Zelazny spent four pages or so setting up his little joke. It's the part with the Shan who is hypnotized by Sam to take his place in receiving a new body as ordered by "Heaven" (the Madeline conversation). After the procedure Sam meets the Shan on the road to evaluate if he'd been correct to doubt Heaven's goodwill. The line that readers miss is "Then the fit hit the Shan" (epileptic seizure). The whole situation was set up by Zelazny to be a pun on the common English phrase, "Then the shit hit the fan."
We knew about the "fit hit the Shan" joke and forgot to bring it up on camera. I think we alluded to it in the spoiler-free section. Thank you for sharing that!
I always perceived Sam's motivation as less altruistic. He dabbled in acelerationism in the distant past, but the main reason he opposes the gods is he doesn't want to join the pantheon.
I was fortunate enough to have been on a few stateside retreats with Zen master Thich Nhat Hanh during the late 90s early 00s. I distinctly recall his presence, or 'darshan' if you will, being direct and palpable. To me he was without doubt a living breathing Buddha of recent times. Thanks for the review, LoL is an old favorite of mine, and it's refreshing to see the dust being blown off the cover of such a great SF classic.
Maybe the more popular Zelazny I haven’t read. I’ve had a copy for awhile, I need to get to it and you three keep reminding me with the recent mentions. Zelazny is an amazing stylist, his range is impressive. It’s been a hot minute since I’ve been to a Buddhist temple but I did study some in a class this years.
I would love to hear your thoughts when you read it, Liam! There is some fantastic, though maybe crass humor in this book. Zelazny's style stood out as a huge highlight to me. It took a few chapters for me to find a flow with what was happening, but chapter 4 onward blew me away.
I really liked this book when I read it back in May, but revisiting it through your discussion has me thinking even more deeply. I’m really intrigued by how the book is actually more interested in the interplay between religion as an institution (which is inherently flawed) and the power of religion as a spiritual narrative that affects real change (eg. the way Rill so powerfully internalizes Buddhism). Gaiman has often said that Zelazny was one of-maybe the most-important influences on him and LoL often reminded me of American Gods (though I think Zelazny does more interesting things with the themes). There’s also the way Zelazny seemingly frustrates shallow claims of appropriation. Certainly there’s a lot to say about a white dude writing a novel that deploys the surface (and maybe deeper) aspects of sub-continental religions, but the book is clearly being super shrewd by making it clear that it is appropriation and critiquing that; I wonder how many people noticed that in 1967. Fascinating book and a rich discussion!
Excellent insights on Lord of Light! I still haven't read American Gods, but this book conveyed those religious and societal themes in such a unique, humorous, risky, and clever way. I'd be very curious to learn thoughts from 1967 as well. I know it won the Hugo the following year and was nominated for the Nebula, which seems well deserved!
Ooh yes! I was looking forward to this conversation. I read Lord of Light last month because both Johanna talking about it and watching Matts review. The book was a lot of food for thought and I think you beautifully summarize and spotlight the interesting themes and peculiarities about the book. One thing that suprised me is that you kept talking about the gods like they were gods. Funnily enough my take during reading the book was that the gods were humans with access to very advanced technology who kept technological advance away from humans to keep them powerless and dependent (do what we say or horrible reincarnation for you). And it is not that far-fetched either as Sam himself, like you said does not present himself as a god. Or maybe I misheard. Great conversation! Also it was not lost on me that the dark one with the mindless zombie followers was the sole representation of Christianity 😂 I leave the implications of that to the reader 😜
I believe it's accurate to say that the "gods" were not really gods.😄 I certainly didn't mean to imply they were though the "aspect" each had was a little mysterious to me. I assume that might've been technology-based, but I'm not sure if that was ever explained. Nirriti and the zombie followers were pretty wild! Zelazny was not afraid to take risks in many ways. Thank you so much! I'm glad you enjoyed the book!
Enjoying the convo so far, and felt like I'd chime in on the topic of Sam's motives. If I recall correctly, when Sam essentially declares war on heaven for the first time, it's following a long period of absence during which he did not live among other gods, but among one of the two populations (humans) that he and the others of the "first" had been oppressing and exploiting for centuries. The impression I had was that he had become sympathetic to the injustice of their existence and their lack of self-determination - something that was driven home more keenly and on a more personal level when he engaged the newly-established bureaucracy of heaven in order to get a new body, and then further when he tried to pull the 'first' card and found himself in a situation where he had to do what Trimurti wanted in order to get what he wanted. Additionally, he just instinctively didn't seem to appreciate that while so much technology was being hoarded as a means of preserving the lifestyle of the gods, the only real technological developments that were making their way into the world of common people was invasive and manipulative, and mainly served to further enforce control over those masses. There was a level of indigence to Sam's opposition to heaven, is the impression I had, and it so happened to align with what the humans of that world might have felt if only they weren't kept so in the dark that they didn't even realize the reality of their exploited, oppressed existence. That's how I read his initial accelerationist shift at least. His motives may have been a bit more refined after he got pulled from "nirvana" by Yama, and was forced to contemplate life/existence/consciousness/will in order to re-assimilate to living in a body once again - as opposed to the time he spent living as energy in "nirvana," which, by the way, sounds like what the Rakasha may have been doing before the "first" came to colonize that planet. I could be mistaken but I had the impression that the energy surrounding the planet that Sam became a part of during his time in nirvana was the resource that powers heaven, and that could not be harnessed without first expelling these creatures of energy from it. It's been a long time though, I may be forgetting or misremembering some things. Colonialism, by the way, is a lens I think we're meant to view the Rakasha through. Philip came very close to nailing what I think is intended to be a key term for that analysis when he mentioned the word "otherize." I think the more apt term in this case, however, is 'demonize,' as they're literally called demons by their colonizers, and that characterization is used to justify their defeat, displacement and imprisonment. And we know the effects that imprisonment can have on the psychology of individuals and populations. Imprisonment doesn't generally cultivate anything healthy in the imprisoned. Even with that said, it's worth noting that many of the horrors described that Sam witnessed/participated in while he was possessed were things that humans have been documented as doing. It makes some sense that there was a part of Sam that came to enjoy those activities to some extent - they aren't as alien to humans as are the physiology (or lack thereof) of the Rakasha. The dynamics between the first and the Rakasha are very much like any other colonial project that almost necessarily dehumanizes its subjects in order to justify the project in the minds of the colonizers and lets them sleep at night.
I read this last year and was so confused. I had no idea what was going on! I think I'll give it a reread after listening to this discussion. I'm sure it will resonate more with added context. Nice discussion!
It's a tricky read, as Neil Gaiman said! I recommend checking out Matt's review. He also pointed out, right before we started recording, that Wikipedia has a good summary of each chapter. I hope that helps. Thank you!
What a remarkable book Lord of Light is. So lovely to see you all engage with the text at this level, I hope that this novel and video will be a gateway to Zelazny's wider works for many readers!
There is a slight spoiler in this rest of this comment, so do not read if you haven't yet read the book. - - - I too was confused at the end of the first chapter, so went back to figure things out. I then finished the book. Three months later I decided to read it again. The last line of the first chapter explains what is happening. I missed it the first time and only saw it because I was looking for it. An excellent book.
Possibly the best SF story ever. I too am always left deeply moved by Rild's story. And Lord of Light has one of the very best last lines of any novel. It must be understood that Zelazny was a child of the Beat generation. The only thing I'm uncomfortable with is Zelazny's treatment of Christianity. But I know what Christianity had become in mid 20th century America, and how ugly it can be when corrupted.
I love that you mentioned Zelazny being a child of the Beat generation. For some reason that really clicks for me. I once attended a workshop with a musician who worked with Ginsberg, and the creativity was off the chart. I can also understand being uncomfortable with the Christianity representation.
@@Johanna_reads /Lord of Light/ is not Zelazny's only work to show the Beat influence. It's explicit in at least one of his short stories, "A Rose for Ecclesiastes". That's one of the first SF works I know of to make use of jujitsu's Zen connection. (Even I, a Boomer, have difficulty really understanding how difficult it must have been for Zelazny's cohort to separate such things from the WWII perception of the Japanese.) And it foreshadows the religious questions in /Lord/. Speaking of his short works, the current AI faddishness should prompt a re-reading of "For A Breath I Tarry". I doubt Zelazny had ever heard of the Turing Test, but he absolutely nails the question from the AI's perspective.
Thank you once again for being the perfect host, Johanna! It's always a pleasure to chat with you. And a big thanks to Matt for gifting us Lord of Light -- and even being thoughtful enough to send us the edition with the cool cover!
One of those rare times the US cover surpasses the UK! (For contrast, look up both editions of Butler’s Kindred.)
@@paulwilliams6913 True!
My pleasure! I enjoyed chatting with you and Matt about Lord of Light. Thank you so much for your wonderful insights, Philip!
Thanks for hosting this Johanna, and I’m glad you enjoyed the book so much. 😀 Was a great chat.
I loved it! Thank you so much, Matt, both for the book and for adding so much to the discussion!
I'm so glad you read the first paragraph! It drew me in instantly.
Then this quote sealed the deal:
"It is said that fifty-three years after his liberation he returned from the
Golden Cloud, to take up once again the gauntlet of Heaven, to oppose the
Order of Life and the gods who ordained it so. His followers had prayed for
his return, though their prayers were sin. Prayer should not trouble one
who has gone on to Nirvana, no matter what the circumstances of his going.
The wearers of the saffron robe prayed, however, that He of the Sword,
Manjusri, should come again among them, The Boddhisatva is said to have
heard…"
Thank you so much for chatting about this book. I read it for the first time this year and I absolutely love it.
This was a great video!
Big spoiler below for anyone that hasn't read it.
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I cried at the end of Rild's fight with Yama. Few things have hit me that hard. I was just reading it again and had to stop because I couldn't see. Like Sam said, Yama killed the true enlightened one that day. Absolutely tragic.
Yes, I appreciate that opening so much! Rild's death was so unexpected and tragic. That was a very poignant moment. Thank you so much for sharing that!
My favorite comedic segment of the book often gets missed by readers. Zelazny spent four pages or so setting up his little joke.
It's the part with the Shan who is hypnotized by Sam to take his place in receiving a new body as ordered by "Heaven" (the Madeline conversation).
After the procedure Sam meets the Shan on the road to evaluate if he'd been correct to doubt Heaven's goodwill.
The line that readers miss is "Then the fit hit the Shan" (epileptic seizure).
The whole situation was set up by Zelazny to be a pun on the common English phrase, "Then the shit hit the fan."
We knew about the "fit hit the Shan" joke and forgot to bring it up on camera. I think we alluded to it in the spoiler-free section. Thank you for sharing that!
@@Johanna_reads I thought you were alluding to it in the first couple minutes of the video. I enjoyed the discussion.
I always perceived Sam's motivation as less altruistic. He dabbled in acelerationism in the distant past, but the main reason he opposes the gods is he doesn't want to join the pantheon.
It could be that he was selfishly motivated. He was a little hard for me to figure out. Thanks!
I'm so glad you're talking about one of my favorite books
Hooray! I was very impressed with the book. I hope you enjoy the discussion.
I was fortunate enough to have been on a few stateside retreats with Zen master Thich Nhat Hanh during the late 90s early 00s. I distinctly recall his presence, or 'darshan' if you will, being direct and palpable. To me he was without doubt a living breathing Buddha of recent times. Thanks for the review, LoL is an old favorite of mine, and it's refreshing to see the dust being blown off the cover of such a great SF classic.
That’s amazing! Thank you so much for sharing that experience with Thich Nhat Hahn and for watching the Lord of Light discussion!
Maybe the more popular Zelazny I haven’t read. I’ve had a copy for awhile, I need to get to it and you three keep reminding me with the recent mentions. Zelazny is an amazing stylist, his range is impressive. It’s been a hot minute since I’ve been to a Buddhist temple but I did study some in a class this years.
I would love to hear your thoughts when you read it, Liam! There is some fantastic, though maybe crass humor in this book. Zelazny's style stood out as a huge highlight to me. It took a few chapters for me to find a flow with what was happening, but chapter 4 onward blew me away.
I really liked this book when I read it back in May, but revisiting it through your discussion has me thinking even more deeply. I’m really intrigued by how the book is actually more interested in the interplay between religion as an institution (which is inherently flawed) and the power of religion as a spiritual narrative that affects real change (eg. the way Rill so powerfully internalizes Buddhism). Gaiman has often said that Zelazny was one of-maybe the most-important influences on him and LoL often reminded me of American Gods (though I think Zelazny does more interesting things with the themes).
There’s also the way Zelazny seemingly frustrates shallow claims of appropriation. Certainly there’s a lot to say about a white dude writing a novel that deploys the surface (and maybe deeper) aspects of sub-continental religions, but the book is clearly being super shrewd by making it clear that it is appropriation and critiquing that; I wonder how many people noticed that in 1967.
Fascinating book and a rich discussion!
Excellent insights on Lord of Light! I still haven't read American Gods, but this book conveyed those religious and societal themes in such a unique, humorous, risky, and clever way. I'd be very curious to learn thoughts from 1967 as well. I know it won the Hugo the following year and was nominated for the Nebula, which seems well deserved!
Ooh yes! I was looking forward to this conversation. I read Lord of Light last month because both Johanna talking about it and watching Matts review. The book was a lot of food for thought and I think you beautifully summarize and spotlight the interesting themes and peculiarities about the book.
One thing that suprised me is that you kept talking about the gods like they were gods. Funnily enough my take during reading the book was that the gods were humans with access to very advanced technology who kept technological advance away from humans to keep them powerless and dependent (do what we say or horrible reincarnation for you). And it is not that far-fetched either as Sam himself, like you said does not present himself as a god. Or maybe I misheard. Great conversation!
Also it was not lost on me that the dark one with the mindless zombie followers was the sole representation of Christianity 😂 I leave the implications of that to the reader 😜
I believe it's accurate to say that the "gods" were not really gods.😄 I certainly didn't mean to imply they were though the "aspect" each had was a little mysterious to me. I assume that might've been technology-based, but I'm not sure if that was ever explained. Nirriti and the zombie followers were pretty wild! Zelazny was not afraid to take risks in many ways. Thank you so much! I'm glad you enjoyed the book!
Enjoying the convo so far, and felt like I'd chime in on the topic of Sam's motives. If I recall correctly, when Sam essentially declares war on heaven for the first time, it's following a long period of absence during which he did not live among other gods, but among one of the two populations (humans) that he and the others of the "first" had been oppressing and exploiting for centuries. The impression I had was that he had become sympathetic to the injustice of their existence and their lack of self-determination - something that was driven home more keenly and on a more personal level when he engaged the newly-established bureaucracy of heaven in order to get a new body, and then further when he tried to pull the 'first' card and found himself in a situation where he had to do what Trimurti wanted in order to get what he wanted.
Additionally, he just instinctively didn't seem to appreciate that while so much technology was being hoarded as a means of preserving the lifestyle of the gods, the only real technological developments that were making their way into the world of common people was invasive and manipulative, and mainly served to further enforce control over those masses. There was a level of indigence to Sam's opposition to heaven, is the impression I had, and it so happened to align with what the humans of that world might have felt if only they weren't kept so in the dark that they didn't even realize the reality of their exploited, oppressed existence.
That's how I read his initial accelerationist shift at least. His motives may have been a bit more refined after he got pulled from "nirvana" by Yama, and was forced to contemplate life/existence/consciousness/will in order to re-assimilate to living in a body once again - as opposed to the time he spent living as energy in "nirvana," which, by the way, sounds like what the Rakasha may have been doing before the "first" came to colonize that planet. I could be mistaken but I had the impression that the energy surrounding the planet that Sam became a part of during his time in nirvana was the resource that powers heaven, and that could not be harnessed without first expelling these creatures of energy from it. It's been a long time though, I may be forgetting or misremembering some things.
Colonialism, by the way, is a lens I think we're meant to view the Rakasha through. Philip came very close to nailing what I think is intended to be a key term for that analysis when he mentioned the word "otherize." I think the more apt term in this case, however, is 'demonize,' as they're literally called demons by their colonizers, and that characterization is used to justify their defeat, displacement and imprisonment. And we know the effects that imprisonment can have on the psychology of individuals and populations. Imprisonment doesn't generally cultivate anything healthy in the imprisoned.
Even with that said, it's worth noting that many of the horrors described that Sam witnessed/participated in while he was possessed were things that humans have been documented as doing. It makes some sense that there was a part of Sam that came to enjoy those activities to some extent - they aren't as alien to humans as are the physiology (or lack thereof) of the Rakasha. The dynamics between the first and the Rakasha are very much like any other colonial project that almost necessarily dehumanizes its subjects in order to justify the project in the minds of the colonizers and lets them sleep at night.
Thank you so much for this nuanced analysis! While it's now been a while since I read the book, I think that all makes sense based on what I recall!
I read this last year and was so confused. I had no idea what was going on! I think I'll give it a reread after listening to this discussion. I'm sure it will resonate more with added context. Nice discussion!
It's a tricky read, as Neil Gaiman said! I recommend checking out Matt's review. He also pointed out, right before we started recording, that Wikipedia has a good summary of each chapter. I hope that helps. Thank you!
What a remarkable book Lord of Light is. So lovely to see you all engage with the text at this level, I hope that this novel and video will be a gateway to Zelazny's wider works for many readers!
Thank you so much! This book got me excited to read more from Zelazny. I was very impressed with this book!
Great stuff. I’m actually about to read it in the New Year so will return for the spoiler section 👍🏻
Fantastic! I hope you enjoy the wild ride this book takes you on!
thanks :)
Welcome! :)
It must’ve been great video 🎥🎥🎥
Thank you!
Such a wonderfully weird book!
It truly is!
There is a slight spoiler in this rest of this comment, so do not read if you haven't yet read the book. - - - I too was confused at the end of the first chapter, so went back to figure things out. I then finished the book. Three months later I decided to read it again. The last line of the first chapter explains what is happening. I missed it the first time and only saw it because I was looking for it. An excellent book.
I'll have to go back and reread that last line, and I don't think that's a spoiler at all. Thanks for sharing!
What the heck is Philip wearing??? Flannel? Where's the tweed?
I was actually also wearing blue flannel when we connected, and I took mine off to let Philip’s shine. 😆
He never said he would wear the tweed, but then he never said he would not wear the tweed. 😁
Those of us a certain age will recall the “Where’s the beef?” ads that used to be on television. “Where’s the tweed?” could be the next hot thing!
Hi there Hi there Hi there Hi
Hello! :)
Possibly the best SF story ever. I too am always left deeply moved by Rild's story. And Lord of Light has one of the very best last lines of any novel.
It must be understood that Zelazny was a child of the Beat generation.
The only thing I'm uncomfortable with is Zelazny's treatment of Christianity. But I know what Christianity had become in mid 20th century America, and how ugly it can be when corrupted.
I love that you mentioned Zelazny being a child of the Beat generation. For some reason that really clicks for me. I once attended a workshop with a musician who worked with Ginsberg, and the creativity was off the chart. I can also understand being uncomfortable with the Christianity representation.
@@Johanna_reads /Lord of Light/ is not Zelazny's only work to show the Beat influence. It's explicit in at least one of his short stories, "A Rose for Ecclesiastes". That's one of the first SF works I know of to make use of jujitsu's Zen connection. (Even I, a Boomer, have difficulty really understanding how difficult it must have been for Zelazny's cohort to separate such things from the WWII perception of the Japanese.) And it foreshadows the religious questions in /Lord/.
Speaking of his short works, the current AI faddishness should prompt a re-reading of "For A Breath I Tarry". I doubt Zelazny had ever heard of the Turing Test, but he absolutely nails the question from the AI's perspective.