The most important protein study of the year! | Dr. Gabrielle Lyon and Dr. Don Layman
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- čas přidán 30. 06. 2024
- This study investigated the muscle protein synthesis rates in older adults after consuming two different types of meals: an omnivorous meal consisting of lean ground beef and a vegan meal composed solely of plant-based sources. The aim was to understand how these meals affect the body's ability to synthesize muscle protein following the ingestion of a meal containing the different types of protein. This is the first study to compare the anabolic response following the ingestion of a complete omnivorous versus vegan meal.
Article: www.sciencedirect.com/science...
Disclaimer: The Dr. Gabrielle Lyon Podcast and CZcams are for general information purposes only and do not constitute the practice of medicine, nursing, or other professional health care services, including the giving of medical advice, and no doctor/patient relationship is formed. The use of information on this podcast, CZcams, or materials linked from this podcast or CZcams is at the user's own risk. The content of this podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Users should not disregard or delay in obtaining medical advice for any medical condition they may have and should seek the assistance of their health care professional for any such conditions. - Věda a technologie
Dr Lyon and Dr Layman are a few experts capable of analyzing this study. Thanks for this great interview and public service. Dr Layman is a national treasure on nutrition and exercise.
Thank YOU
Wrong, I'm capable of analyzing this study except I'm too stupid to understand it. (sarcasm)
You should interview Jorn Trommelen to get his explanation of the study.
We would love to! It's a wonderful group!
Thanks to both Drs for adding valuable caveats and context. Really refreshing and informative.
Thank you Dr Lyon and Dr Layman for discussing this study. When I heard about the study my first thought was "What do Dr Lyon and Dr Layman think about this?" Surely if the study results were true, Dr Layman would have come across similar findings in his many years of protein research. Thanks for breaking it down and showing that the study isn't what the title says it is.
I am very glad you discussed this study so minutely. I had heard some less reflected opinions on the findings prior to your conversation. So thank you very much for the clarifications and you being so differentiated ! I appreciate that thoroughly ! 👍🙏
We appreciate you❤
Thank you both ever so much, for all the knowledge you share, all the work you put in to get it to us.
Really enjoyed the way the data was taken a part! Thank you for an extremely informative and valuable breakdown!
Love your channel Dr Lyon and I have soooooo been waiting for the two of you to analyse this study🙏
Wonderful response to the study! Science at work . Thanks. I love it when people do forensic reviews. You can learn so much
Thank you so much Dr Lyon. The normal person could not have taken this study and poked the holes in it like both of you have. I learned so much. Listening to Dr Layman shows me how to start to critically think about these studies. Im listening again and taking notes. Loved this video. Thank again so very much
Thank you for your interest !
This is a very detailed and intellectual analyst of this study.
I have seen others rave about this study as ground breaking, but you both have revealed "the holes" and problems in it. THANK YOU.
Ive heard another youtube channel discuss this study, take it at face value and pass on the information as is, basically advise just to follow it.
Thanks so much for analysing it thoroughly and giving real insight. So grateful for this 😊
Thank you Dr. Lyon, for this presentation, and for your fantastic book. Both are pure gold.
This analysis of the data is much better than others. Agreed, the design of this study was subpar. The protein quantity of 25g seems insufficient for a meaningful comparison, considering existing literature suggests that muscle protein synthesis tends to plateau around 40g, depending on one's body weight.
So glad to hear this breakdown of the data! I’m interested to see what others in the space think about Dons take on it as I’ve already seen several others in this space very excited about this study (Mind Pump, Thomas DeLauer, etc)
Mind pump latched on to this study with positive remarks after consulting with Layne Norton. 🤔
Very helpful breakdown on this, thank you!
Thank u both 4 all u do to help others get strong
Very good both, thoroughly enjoyed listening in! Paul
Bravo! Thank you for a wonderful critique of a scientific paper. Dr. Layman‘s review of a published article illustrates the need for critical thinking that goes beyond the headlines.
Thank you so much for always simplifying the info for your listeners. God bless you both.🙏
❤
Great video, thank you both for this.
Our pleasure!
Hi Dr Lyon! Im reading Forever Strong, it's one of a kind book! Love it. In Page 30 you suggest Health Coaches (I'm certified) to take one of your courses to expand our skills. Thanks for the empowerment, but when i tried to join, there no course in your website. Instead, there was a waiting list. Could you please direct me to the right person or place to take your course? Blessings and Happy New Year!
This is amazing info!
Thank God for the two doctors. The real true that we have from them. Many experts believes this new research and they are wrong.
I am from India I do watch ur episode it's very to watch ur channel
Dr Layman is a pit bull. Tore that study to shreds. 😂
In a good way. 💪👌
Video description says: "This study investigated the muscle protein synthesis rates in older adults after consuming two different types of meals: an omnivorous meal consisting of lean ground beef and a vegan meal composed solely of plant-based sources."
... er... ah... what?
thank you
Could you discuss women on Ozempic who are not exercising? Aren’t they losing a lot of muscle mass as a result of that extreme weight loss? Thank you for your presentation
Thank you for this “Forever Strong Friday” lol 💪
Hi,
Thank you for covering our work and I enjoyed the podcast.
I'll likely publish an "author response" on my website.
But I would also be happy to come on the show and discuss (either with or without Donald). LMK if you're interested.
@DrGabrielleLyon did you see this 👆
This would be great! Hope you'll tweet at her as well
The age of the subjects is in the supplemental table 1. It ranges from 24 ± 5 to 27 ± 7, so from 19 to 34.
Thanks. Came here to point this out, but you beat me to it. Given he made such a big deal of the supposedly undisclosed ages we can probably safely assume the rest of his analysis is equally shoddy.
Great discussion thanks for this. I also was surprised reading the study - no methods! I first looked for the subject demographics and…. 🦗
Also, recs are 0.25-0.40 g/kg per meal/feeding, where did 20-30g across the board come from
You have to look at the very end, (oddly) after the references for subject characteristics. They are not novice lifters. E.g. chest press 1RM is 91 +- 25 kg @ 77kg bodyweight (~200 lbs @ 170 lbs bw)
"where did 20-30g across the board come from"
Stu Philips et al. did dose ranging studies years ago.
Proteins are broken down into their base amino acids prior to absorption which is a consideration where protein assembly is concerned.
This was very much worth the listen.
At the very bottom of the study webpage on Cell--> age is 25 +- 6
However, they are not exactly 'untrained' novices. E.g. chest press 1RM is 91 +- 25 kg @ 77kg bodyweight (~200 lbs @ 170 lbs bw)
Yes, it's weird to put the subject characteristics way out of the way at the end.
This is the kind of information I need. You, two, evaluate the peer-reviewed paper in depth and talk in language I can understand without formal medical education/training. Fitness comunity mostly use whey protein for recovery. Why did the researcher use casein? And why didn't researcher use subjects who have been training, at least, moderately over years?
Yes! That is the million $ Q to be answered here: why??? Why do a sub standard study with weird parameters???
The paper claims they chose milk protein (80% casein 20% whey) because worldwide milk is the most commonly consumed. I cynically suspect it was really to get the desired outcome.
Also, they're not exactly novices. E.g. chest press 1RM is 91 +- 25 kg @ 77kg bodyweight (~200 lbs @ 170 lbs bw).
Please clarify, Dr. Lyon, your definition of animal based protein. A large portion of my protein comes from milk, cheese, and yogurt. Because it comes from cows and sheep, I consider it animal based. Therefore, I was shocked to hear Dr. Layman pan milk-derived casein as a poor protein source, when you have been hammering at the importance of animal based protein sources. Doesn’t whey also come from milk? Is casein a poor protein source in this study because it was separated out of the whole food and fed to the subjects in a powder form, without whey? In their whole forms, are milk, yogurt, and cheese on the level of plants like lentils and peas as protein sources, or are they on the level of cuts of beef and chicken, or are they somewhere in between?
Thank you very much; I’m very perturbed and confused right now.
Doctors, please can you clarify for me the IGF1 spikes. Looks like protein is under fire for making IGF1 to raise. but then i see that other things cause it spike as well, including carbohydrates through the insuline pathway. Excercise and sauna raise it too. Why is it always the protein that gets blamed? is there a reason? Does protein acts different when causing it to raise?
I would like to know if that information applies to A2 as well.
Participant data is in Table S1. Average age is 25 years. Weird that Dr.Layman would claim that this is not reported when it is clearly stated.
It seems all the studies mentioned have used isolated proteins - whey, cassin or milk protein (80-20 casein-whey). What about real food? Could it be a complete meal consisting of meat, fat and veggies would act more like casein/milk protein?
I think People should always evaluate knew studies and consider some of the flaws and processes in which study was Conducted, that being said You guys seem to be dismissive of some of the findings because it Doesn't fit Your Narratives You have been saying for Years as Scientists. You should always try to check Your bias at the door and be open to maybe changing your mind on a issue or partly changing, Okay they used Cheese Protein and they used a high intensity exercise, Even with those things it should have not been able to. show those Results, One thing has always confused Me about this whole eat protein every few hours to gain Muscle???? as Humans We have 2 million Years of Evolution on our wonderful bodies truly an Incredible system, We know that we might not eat for days and weeks and when we did finally get to eat an animal we would gorge ourselves on that animal eating well over 50 grams of Protein probably in the range of 100 to 200 grams of protein So why. would our bodies Not be able to use more than 40 grams of protein or that it would be Oxidized ???? To survive as a species we would not have this FLAW, This is why when a knew study is conducted using whey protein and unfit people and Moderate exercise I BET. IT SHOWS THE SAME RESULTS BUT LETS WAIT AND SEE.
Great 👍
How does the body process excess protein? I consume 90% of my macros in ptorein and now worry that it's too much.
I've had good results mixing whey and casein for a post workout supplement. Best of both proteins
Cottage cheese is a great source of leucine, with 1.27 grams per 1/2-cup (100-gram) serving.
The description of this video has absolutely nothing to do with the contents of the video. It looks like it was cut and pasted from a different video. I usually respect both these experts, but it is disconcerting to hear them criticizing other people's techniques, while at the same time being sloppy in their own technique.
Description of the video is not correct: Talks about a different study... Nice analyses and critique though!
It seems the ability to intrinsically label the protein may be why the milk protein was used.
Well, there was a part mentioned something like "... so it would take 14 oz of beef for to optimize recovery, and we know that's not true" - but actually that more fits what I have seen, directly and indirectly. 25g of protein from beef would be more like a quarter pound, and I do see/feel that 14 oz, and even way more, does have benefit. I do much better closer to 900 grams of beef than say 750 g (with the latter still being a lot of protein). Perhaps there is more going on if not where/how their analysis showed, but somewhere and somehow. In terms of specifics, I'm in my forties and only eat that much on training days, and while fasted. I did eat that much in my 20s and 30s, but more spread out - so I'm more muscular with higher protein feedings in a shorter feeding window - indicating that my body is indeed doing something with those whop-loads of protein :).
I know there are limitations with anything, like the type of protein as one example here, but at least looking at dairy forms - they didn't find differences in whey or casein:
"Moreover, we observed no differences in muscle protein synthesis rates following the ingestion of relatively large doses of whey and casein protein,43 implying that more rapidly digestible proteins do not result in disproportional (high) amino acid oxidation rates. Collectively, these data indicate that the metabolic responses observed in the present study are unlikely to be restricted to more slowly digestible proteins and are generalizable to other proteins despite different digestion kinetics."
this question might be unrelated to the video. i've noticed increased constipation and gastric issues with increased level of protein intake (around 1g per pound of bodyweight). would digestive enzymes help with that? if so, which one would any of you recommend? by the way, i do work out 4 times a week.
I’ve benefited from betaine hcl and pepsin supplements
Include green papaya and pineapple in your diet.
12:00 dosage of protein and comment that 25gr vs 100gr on casein outcome may mislead and better is to compare 50 vs 100 is exactly the outcome when you see the results of study… from 50gr there is almost no marginal impact in raise of blood levels markers. Thats the point.
One of the members of the group works for Friesland Campina, a dairy company. Hence the milk protein?
Good catch.
Can Dr. Lyon and Dr. Layman suggest a good protein powder supplement and how much can we safely take daily. Getting 130 to 150 grams of protein a day isn't that easy.
It is easy unless you're not counting the protein in grains and other plants as protein at all.
Dr Lyon, I'd love to take you on a date and talk all things health!
Again I think it needs to be addressed that people like Shawn Baker who often eats @300 grams of protein in an OMAD sitting is obviously not protein deficient. He must be absorbing WAY more than the typical 30-40 grams max absorption as thought in the past. Please answer this!!! When Dr. Baker brought this up in his discussion with Dr. Layman in the past there was no real answer given???
And thanks to the both of you for all your fascinating work!
Hmmm, I eat just normal. For exampel, piece of bread and coffee for breakfast, spaghetti for lunch and pizza for dinner. European quality not US quality. Some stuff between sometimes (apple, cake, joghourt, snacks). I get about 0.25g/pound or 0.5g/kg of protein and I do sports on a regular base. I am actually quite muscular, I don't feel I need more protein. Actually the opposite!! I start to feel unhealthy, full all the time, strange feeling. This happens when I go up to only about 1g/kg. This feels like crazy for me... An friend of mine goes up to 2.5-2.7g/kg. I don't know how the hell he can do this. But I think he is on some PED, trains in the fitness center, power lifting style...
What do you guys think?
Amen
It wasn’t casein, it was milk extract 80%casein and 20% whey.
I wonder what is the utility of the study. A more useful study would be in the typical scenario: Some whey and carbs post-workout, and then a meal with something like beef or chicken. Then just vary the amount of protein. Not this weird casein stuff.
Love you 😘☝️😁🙏✌🏼🤩💪🏼
Interesting info but horrible clickbait title. I was expecting information I could use in training rather than a treatise on how to not run a protein study.
What can the layman glean from this study? I’m a 73-year-old woman who for the last 3+ years has worked out with weights twice a week. One of my recovery options is a bodybuilder shake, with more protein than their regular protein shake (sorry, don’t recall the numbers). It’s made by my preference in a base of 2% organic milk, vanilla or chocolate whey protein, and my choice of fruit or other additives (usually blueberry and raspberry).
Does this mean this shake would create and maintain recovery over a longer period of time than other options, such as chicken or tuna salad?
Or does this study have nothing to say pertinent to my food intake. If so, why even create an episode about it. What’s the point of this discussion?
Nice review of the study.
But, on a personal note, please don’t use filler for the lips. That is way too much!
No need for that.
I wonder what you think of Christopher Gardner's position on protein. His podcast with ZOE was quite contradictory to your and Don Layman's research. Gardner believes everyone is getting double the amount of protein than necessary, and that vegam protein is as effective as animal protein. Seems quite wrong based on what Don Layman and Layne Norton have researched.
Amazing work. Thanks for being honest. You have fake scientist influences touting this study online without ever reading it. You are a scientist I CAN TRUST.
Brains and Beauty. Damn.
The title "The most important protein study of the year!" seems to be wrong!
Don Layman has things to say which, in my opinion, demolishes the study, and makes it irrelevant.
Things like:
Casein -- an unusual protein. Very slow digestion.
Exercise -- Untrained young men. Very hard exercise to failure.
The conclusions overstates what data they got!
And it seems that they were in a severe recovery state (not surprising after that exercise and at breakfast) with unexplained measurements of mTOR etc.
And Don says these things in a respectful way!
Do I overinterpret his comments?
You're correct, the title is somewhat clickbait as Layman is actually not very impressed.
Also, I haven't looked into PWO protein studies since years ago, but I don't recall any using IV leucine (tracer) as this one did throughout the 12 hours. That would seem to be a confounder.
I prefer a interview with Layne Norton about this paper thank you.
🔥🥩🏆
Amazing clevage.
They kept saying that this study was interesting and fascinating but they criticized the study for 27 minutes. I found nothing interesting about the whole video. I kept staring at that lady's lips and wondering why they were so big. They are 3 times bigger than a regular person's lips. I hope she did not pay to have that done.
The objections to the paper's title appear specious to me.
Animal protein comes with fat in nature. Using lean meat for this study shows ignorance.
That is not entirely correct.
There are quite a few animals in the wild that carry little fat on their bodies. For example rabbits and hares. But in general most game actually carry small amounts of fat on their bodies.
There is a reason why humans hunted the big megafaunas to extinction. Because they carried large amounts of fat on their bodies. Small game is generally too lean meat for humans to surrvive on.
@@jaghad Yes. However, if you eat only lean meat, you risk protein positioning. If you eat fatty meat, there is no risk. And before you mention saturated fat being harmful. The American academy of Cardiologist has issued a statement that there is no data linking saturated fat to heart disease. Our ancestors were hunting animals with the most fat. Unless forced to consume lean animals or plants.
@@oldbeergangster2381LOL
The L&L show.
💪🙏🥩
Ms Skeletor !
Why? That's the comment of a 12 yr old. Do better.
So we should listen to only you? The person that said the human body isn't smart enough to know what to do with any extra protein so eat it 30g every 4 hours. Despite the food we ate is still being digested. Only your study is accurate where you only looked at the first meal? Yeah. Ok.
Ok, so the study is full of issues. The entire age judgment fallacy is based on the fact that most older adults are just less active. This has created a "false skew" that older adults cannot gain muscle at the same rate as an 18-year-old, but this is complete nonsense. 55-year-olds can gain muscle at the same rate as an 18-year-old. It's just a matter of getting into the gym and doing the work. Also, protein synthesis directly after a workout is actually the body using pre-digesting protein from 4-5 hours earlier in the day. A protein shake directly after your workout is not going to do anything until it is fully digested which can take 4 to 5 hours. As a demonstration... you can drink a protein shake directly after your workout and 2 hours later you can jump up and down and hear the liquid in your stomach still digesting.
The mouth 👄 is gonna go out of the screen
Animal protein is the best. Rib eye, tri tip and flank or skirt steak is a complete protein.