English Transitional Pepperbox Revolver
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- čas přidán 6. 05. 2020
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Before modern revolvers, the pepperbox was a popular low-cost defensive firearm. Between the invention and patenting of proper revolvers and their widespread affordable availability, a transitional style of pepperbox grew up, particularly in the UK. These guns used a paperboy style action, with the barrel cluster truncated into a cylinder and a single rifled barrel affixed to the end of the axis pin. The result was a pretty weak firearm, but one which was accessible and inexpensive, and more accurate than the traditional smoothbore pepperbox.
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As Mark Twain wrote about the pepper box "To aim along the turning line of barrel and hit the thing aimed at was a feat that was probably never done, even so it might hit something else. Sometimes all it's six barrels would go off at once and then there was no safe place in all the region about but behind it " Mark Twain 1872.
I love the slightly different version in his travelogue where he describes it as a "cheerful weapon". I always think of that description when I see a pepperbox.
Sir Terry Pratchett borrowed upon that description in his Discworld series when he described Detritus the troll (and Sgt. of the City Watch of Ankh-Morpork) using his custom crossbow (actually a ballista upon which he would place an entire quiver of arrows).
Good timing. I was telling a friend about Twain, the pepper box, and a cow being used for target practice not 3 days ago. How we got to talking about that is another story.
Did Mark Twain really confuse "its" and "it's"
@@lovecraftcat , I'm not actually sure.
I have always wondered why this wasn’t done. Now I know that it was done. And, I know why it wasn’t done more. Love Forgotten Weapons.
I first found out about this in a historical weapons book I read in 2005. Excited to see one here.
@Lassi Kinnunen It *is* a revolver, but clearly it was built by someone thinking of pepperboxes. Somehow it avoids infringing on the Colt patents for its operation. Ian would have showed us how it did that but he doesn't get to disassemble all of the guns he gets to show us.
Lassi Kinnunen I think it’s not considered a “true” revolver because, while it indexes, it doesn’t have complete lock up, ensuring solid cylinder/barrel alignment.
Mark Fergerson If I recall correctly, the main patent that Colt spent his time and money defending covers the barrel indexing when the hammer is cocked. If that is indeed the case, then the double action only nature of this design would get it around that. I’m not sure if cylinder lock-up is also a Colt patent.
I think you summed up the entire channel quite nicely.
It looks like a Frankenstein-pepperbox, resurrected from the ashes of weapons of a different era.
It looks beautiful. Like the gun Harry Potter would use.
James Beattie had a shop in Regents St. for decades, if they haven't renumbered the buildings it would be just across and up the road a bit from where Hamleys toy shop is now. He also sold all kinds of second-hand rifles and revolvers, including, in the 1860s, big bore rifles he called "bone crushers".
There was an incident in 1848 where a Belgian lady called Annette Myers came into his shop and bought a "holster pistol" from Mr. Beattie himself, saying that she wanted to shoot a vicious bitey Newfoundland dog, and needed a loaded gun and no, Mr. Beattie couldn't send one of his staff to shoot the dog for her because of reasons. She paid 10 shillings for the gun (50p translated direct into modern money ignoring inflation, about $2.50 at the exchange rate in the 1840s).
Then she went straight to Birdcage Walk near Buckingham Palace, found her boyfriend who was based in the barracks there and shot him in the back of the head. She said the gun went off without her touching the trigger but the coroner's jury at the inquest thought it was wilful murder for some reason.
Depending on how you hold it, it looks like a revolver that’s nodding off to sleep. Before the snub nose, there was the droop snoot.
I love how old English handguns have that nearly round grip with all the fine checkering and engraving. Those had to be very comfortable grips to hold and just beautiful overall.
Probably not as great for shooting. Then again, if you are buying something so fancy, you probably wont be needing to shoot at fellers a lot
We built some of the most beautiful guns ever made,and they stay beautiful because we dont get to use them much.
@@alexguymon7117 - Oh, definitely not as good for shooting as modern, more ergonomic designs. But they are very nice looking.
@@CeltKnightvery beautiful ones
Idk how I got this channel recommended by the algorithm but I'm grateful nonetheless.
Welcome to the next six months of your life.
oh boy do you have a vast collection of content to look forward to. He has covered every era of firearms development.
Also check out the sister channel inrange-tv where they do more shooting, including matches.
The beautiful engraving and all of the conversion work put into an inexpensive mass produced handgun reminds me of all the custom Hi-Points around now.
Arcanum-style revolver right there
Holy crap, great reference dude! It totally does! Arcanum is my favorite game of all time bro
Halfling Rogue, my 'move silently' skills were off the charts; pretty much broke the game :)
I see you're a man of culture.
Such a great game.
Ah, another fan.
@@artiefufkin88 Combine with hushed revolver for tiny steampunk James Bond. *cue Bond-theme on violins*
That’s a beautiful looking firearm.
Hey Ian, love the content. Stay safe good sir!
My mans got the Clue board game revolver.
Beautiful finish on the metal work
Kind Thanks for showing this gem! The workmanship is amazing. Old firearms are truly works of art and design. Many Blessings! DaveyJO in Pennsylvania
Thanks for the hard work.
I see the sights are on either end of the barrel, which is good. (The sight line isn't any shorter than on some modern snubbies, or pocket pistols. I had an NAA Black Widow that I used for target Shooting, for example) So, the sites can't really get knocked out of whack with the barrel. However, that floppyish frame does screw with the line-up between the charge-holes, and the forcing cone in the barrel. That kinda sucks for accuracy, because one side of the bullet can be flattened, or shaved slightly before it engages the rifling, and wobble as it exits the muzzle spinning. This is a problem with most of these post-colt patent avoiding designs. (Less of an issue with the later lever action Winchester patent avoiding designs.)
@ 5:39.
Just a little pepper for your salt
I could almost imagine a guy in top hat saying "have a little pepper for your salt, boy!" before he shoot a mugger
I want to see someone invent a pepper grinder where you spin the cylinder part of the gun and it crushes peppercorn which then falls out the barrel.
Have to admit I like the look of this :-)
Honestly if I owned this gun I would put it into a wall-mounted display case and then never touch it beyond a occasional "cleaning".
Lame. Gotta shoot that bad boy. Just use less than recommended powder if yet worried it'd blow up.
@@CrudeConduct666 Given it's likely cost were I live I wouldn't dare shoot it, also I am not a 100% clear I even could without a permit that could take upwards of a year to get so, display it would be.
Are you in the UK? I thought you don't need any permits for defunct ammunition weapons and I assume black powder would be included no?
@@drscopeify yes mate in the uk we are allowed to possess percusion and flintlock weapons and also some obsolete caliber ones such as Pinfire and rimfire though not 22 cal rimfire lol
Why wouldn't this be considered a revolver? If it indexes the cylinder with the pull of the trigger wouldn't that make it a double action revolver? Albeit a crude one.
Huh, you have a point
@@OmegaVestoLord thanks, I should have wrote "true revolver" in my comment to be accurate Ian did say it was a revolver but not a " true" one.
Transitional revolvers don't have a cylinder stop so they get a fair amount of tumbling bullets and singed fingers. True revolvers have that device that makes sure the chamber is aligned with the barrel.
I agree with your underlying critic though. The arms world takes taxonomy to ridiculous extremes.
It has a cylinder with multiple chambers, it has a single rifled barrel , it automatically indexes the chamber with the barrel when you cock it, it has a mechanism to prevent the cylinder from rotating when firing.
It ticks all the boxes to be a true revolver.
As far as I can tell, the only reason it doesn't infringe on Colt's patent is because it doesn't have a bore through cylinder for metalic cartridges.
@@Hirosjimma Smith & Wesson held the Rollin White patent, Not Colt. This is why S&W had metallic cartridge revolvers years BEFORE Colt.
Thank you , Ian .
Cool. I didn't know they had examples of these with rams.
This is the sort of thing that I like the idea of owning. Then I remeber that I really don't want to add anything that's not centerfire. But then it's still neat.
Ya but once you get into black powder it's like an addiction. After shooting my shotgun I'm surprised it's not a bigger thing than it is.
that's what I'm afraid of lol. I already have enough of a gun collecting desire
@@thinktwicespeakonce482 just let it happen. To hell with that electric bill. Just don't miss the mortgage payment
@@andyd2960 lol, I'll have to give that a try now that's its warmer out!
I read a story in a Muzzle Loading magazine where someone tried to shoot a playing card on a tree with a pepper box, as part of a bet, and wound up killing a Mule 20' to the side because the pepper box was so wildly inaccurate- he had to pay for the Mule...
You're so famous you get references made about you in other people's videos and it made me laugh if you're looking for a laugh "general sam" just released a video where he makes a joke (at your expense but it's not harsh) and it made me laugh so maybe it'll make you laugh it's about 3-4 minutes in I think I had to go back and watch it again because it was so funny. Anyway anyway I love the content dude I'm glad you choose to share thank you so much!! You've inspired a mechanical interest in firearms In this young lad
Speaking as someone who has done a great deal of black powder revolver shooting, I can see some real merit to this thing. Caps are never gonna fall into the action like a Colt and foul it. It would be really easy to clean and maintain, unlike a Remington. It also looks at least as strong as a Patterson. I'd love to snap some caps on it. It's nice and smooth, nothing to snag on it. It would drop right into a coat pocket. If it indexed reliably and the trigger was doable, it would be fast into action. This example at least, looks like a sweetheart.
That loading lever looks as saggy as early Colts though.
@@markfergerson2145 yeah. It's gonna flop.
Reminds me of Chalcolithic era daggers from Scandinavia that are made of flint but made to follow exactly the form of copper daggers.
Thanks Ian! Can you do a video on the L34A1?
Real Dishonored vibes
Collier turned pepperbox.
Neat!
Yaknow what would be interesting? If you sid an episode on the influence of guns in pop culture. As a star wars fan, and a responsible gun owner, i had to know what types of guns the star wars blasters are based off of. Interestingly enough there's really only like 2 main guns that most star wars blasters from the 70's were based off of. 1 being a british sub machine gun, sorta almost a sequel design wise to the sten. I forget the name of it though. Anyway, the imperial blaster is literally just that gun with a scope on top of it, and some windshield wiper bits. xD
They fired blanks during filming, which tells me the guns were still fully functional. Which is super neat! :D
I think it would be really cool if you could get your hands on one of those Swedish transitional revolvers that were converted to take brass cartridges in in the 1860s. I think the Slaglasrevolver SA. Idk.
I really enjoy your videos. I have one question for you. what do you think of dragon man?
I don't care if they aren't as good as modern guns, the old ones had style. Just like modern cars and buildings it seems the designers lost interest in aesthetics. Just my opinion.
Blame Henry Ford he started it!
@@zombieapocalipse2020 ford's cars had a distinct look to them.
cars started really looking all the same when we started making them aerodynamic
@@luansagara plus the government mandated safety features drive a lot of design features.
@@luansagara the sad thing are that they arent as aerodynamic as they want you to think...
Form... follows... function...
@Forgotten Weapons: I was wondering if anyone reproduced those styles of revolvers? I have been looking for that style in a reproduction and never could find one. Also loved the video.
MARVELOUS
last time i was this early the pepperbox had 6 barrels
Looks like the cylinder axis pin provides some frame strength, too.
I'd guess it provides all of it, the bottom part just helps stabilize the barrel a bit. If the barrel is attached the same way as on a percussion Colt, that wedge through barrel and base pin is the only thing actually holding the barrel onto the frame.
I'm confused. 0:57 If pulling the trigger rotates the cylinder and drops the hammer to fire then how does it differ from a double action revolver?
They should’ve called it the pepper shaker 😁
Cool gun.
Ian! I don't know if you read the comments but I'd like you to know I'm a big fan, for more than one reason.
Sounds like someone has a crush on gun jesus
Yes, but also a shared name. And here I was thinking the name Ian was lame until I saw his channel
For a historical incident where a pepperbox failed: look up Ferdinand Cohen-Blind's attempt to assassinate Otto von Bismarck in 1866.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Cohen-Blind
6mm. bounced off all that wool and Prussian.
Lmao
Fool. He should have used the 6.5mm.
Bismarck was attacked with a cheap pinfire pepperbox in 5mm pinfire, from the five bullets two failed and the other three caused not much damage, the wounds had not been dangerous. In one book i read, that Bismarck had a kind of armoured vest, but i don't believe this. There had been two other asassination attempts. In one case a man in a crowd noticed the asassin and could grab the hand with the gun, in the second case not Bismarck was in the Gouvernement coach, but a large puppet with a similar hat and coat!
They didn't call him the Iron Chancellor for nothing.
Ian, any info on how these guns were manufactured? Were parts cast or machined from solid block.
You mentioned that this was a high end product. Not surprising if it was bought from a shop in Regent Street. Then, as now, that's a very expensive part of London.
Please please pleaseeee do your next book on Swiss bolt rifles! Poyers book is the only literature we have in the states in english
How do you use the sights? The hammer is uhhh, kind of in the way.
Edit: I now see that the hammer is offset to the right. Nevermind ;)
When ian shows them you can see that the is ever so slightly to the right, just barely out of the way
@@jmjedi923 yeah you are correct good sir
@@CrudeConduct666 *tips tophat* your quite welcome my good man
Not unusual to come across these here in the UK. This is a particularly fine example, looking like it has seen little or no use. The ones I have personally seen here have, to put it politely, been rather "tired".
Could you do a shooting review on a pepper box and are there any reproductions out there?
good choice for 3 gun?
I see Pepperbox Revolver, I click :)
This would be very cool for the German Reiters. A little bit off time, but cool
It is not clear to me in what sense this is not a revolver; it appears that pulling the trigger six times would give six successive shots without any hand indexing. Have I misunderstood something?
Thinking the exact same - it also has a cylinder with one barrel instead of the 6 or so barrels cycling round, so what's the difference here
It is a revolver, the intermediate part is that it’s a converted pepperbox and has no cylinder stop
Iascaire I don’t think he said it was a pepper box which was converted, just that it was like a pepper box with very short barrels and a single rifled barrel. Which surely makes it a revolver, however early and imperfect.
@@sawyere2496 Wouldn't that be inoperable?
I think it's because the nipples for the percussion caps are at a 90 degree angle to the axis of the cylinder rather than being on the backs of the chambers. Basically, it's because the hammer goes up and down instead of back and forth.
Could you do a video, explaining in detail all the different operating styles different firearms have used. Give some examples. Pros and cons. Why it was successful or a failure. Thought it would be an interesting series. Sounded like something you would enjoy as well.
He's alredy covered a lot of that, enjoy!
Terminology: czcams.com/play/PL9e3UCcU00TQwsaH91RxYVdhatZO-Ml3a.html
Gun mechanics explained: czcams.com/play/PL9e3UCcU00TRIeypXC53S8r81DZRvoXmu.html
Hirosjimma Thank you very much.
At least it's double action.
It was a cheerful weapon--the "Allen".
As the pepperboxes were usually used at man sized targets at a range of less than 5 feet accuracy was not considered important.
You could have fooled me into thinking this is a revolver... :)
Those checkered grips though...
Given all of the failed attempts to circumvent Colt's patents in the US, im surprised that companies didnt latch onto this alternative. It doesnt seem to be that bad.
I'm confused as to how this isn't a revolver.
I agree, it has all the defining features of a revolver. I don't see how this would still be a pepperbox-revolver hybrid.
Looks kind of like the revolver Anson Mount used in Hell on Wheels. Ever do an analysis of that one?
Pretty sure he used a Griswold & Gunnison, at least in the first season...
Vasto?
Were these transition revolvers used in the Crimean war?
Actually I didn't understand, why this was supposed to not be a revolver/patent infringement. The only difference I understood was no single action, but should that be it?
cool
Any idea of date?
perfect for a 19th century samurai
What makes it intermediate? Looks like any other revolver to me.
Rather, what makes it pepperbox?
I can answer that for you. The first indicator is the type of hammer. Pepperbox weapons typically had a hammer strike at a percussion cap downward, rather than laterally. Early pepperbox revolvers weren't able to turn the chambers on their own. The user would need to set each one manually before firing, but there were models like this one that could revolve mechanically.
I had the opportunity to fire a functioning standard type pepperbox revolver (one barrel for each chamber loaded with a .32 caliber ball). I could strike the center mass of a human sized target at 10 yards, but otherwise I could only guess exactly where the rounds would impact. These things were designed for close quarters.
I think what makes this one transitional is the single barrel design.
If the double action mechanism already existed, and was widely used enough to not be a patent concern, why did the Colts, Remingtons, etc. use single action at first? Was proper lockup alignment too much of an issue to go straight to double action?
Think the patent would be colts on a bored through cylinder
That's an interesting question. Starr, Tranter, and Beaumont-Adams revolvers were all double action, at the time prior to the civil war
More like a pepper grinder, amirite?
Interesting transatlantic difference here, this type of pistol is called a ‘pepperpot’ on the eastern side of the Atlantic and not a ‘pepperbox’, so this English pistol has ‘pepperpot’ origins
what year was it made ?
I wonder if a pepperbox shotgun would be possible..
Wow
I looks as if it came out of a steampunk movie..
Soooo how is this not a revolver?
Colt didn’t make it
It almost looks Steampuck made !!!!!!!!!!!
Why are pepperboxes so pretty?
Pepperbox pistols are historical yeet cannons?
Who made it
I get why this is not a good revolver but I do not understand what makes it a pepperbox, it has a single barrel instead of several combined chambers/barrels. I do believe it is a pepperbox since Ian knows more about firearms than me (understatement of the century) but I do not understand what make it so. At most I get why it couldn't be sold with the name revolver before the patent expired.
LOL It looks like someone just cut down a pepperbox and stuck a Colt barrel on the front.
This looks like Harrier Du Bois' pistol from Disco Elysium.
Me: I want a revolver
Mom: we have revolver at home
Revolver at home:
So if you loaded it with rock salt would it be a salt and pepper box? 🤔😉
curious
I wouldn't touch it with a 36 and a half foot pole, and if I did, it would explode.
It’s like the Betamax of revolvers...
General Sam anyone?
Follow social distancing guidelines, and please keep your comments 6 feet from mine. Thanks
This is the 19th-century version of pimping out your hi-point
If it can't be fired single action a revolver is only self-cocking. Not double action!
This may make me a grumpy old Brit. But one some standards have to be maintained.
The concentration
of english unnecessary luxury - we are upgraded a pepperbox almost like a revolver.
Did anyone owning a pepperbox just carry a loading rod with them? Or just have their pistols capacity for the day?
The latter, I would assume. I doubt that anyone carrying a pepperbox would also lug around a powder horn, patches, bullets and primers. Excluding the privately purchased ones used in war, of course.
I would guess most civilian-owned and carried pepperboxes were used more as a deterrent against dogs and ruffians. If you live the kind of life where you need to shoot more than six people at close range in one day, you should probably invest in a more expensive gun.
I don't really see this as being any different from any other percussion cap revolver.
Nah, I'll pass.... the odds of that thing discharging out of battery are little too high for me.
Looks a bit old
Here before the notification :))
So basically this engraved version was like the hydro dipped Hi-point of its day?
Cool ^_^