Does TOTK make sense in the Zelda timeline?
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- čas přidán 28. 05. 2024
- Nerd video
Thinking At Max Volume theory: • How Tears of the Kingd...
Miyamoto & Aonuma interview by Game Informer: • 51 Rapid-Fire Question...
Nintendo Wire BOTW footage: • Skyward Sword Link ami...
0:00 Intro
1:21 Background/Context
1:48 Ganondorf
3:22 What do we already know?
5:17 My 3 Plausible Theories
6:01 Theory 1
7:47 Theory 2
11:39 Theory 3
13:18 Outro
I can pin comments now, so I’m able to finally address some common topics being brought up in this comment section.
1. Yes, FSA Ganondorf completely slipped my mind during the making of this video. So there has already been more than one Ganondorf. Sorry about that!
2. A lot of people seem to be confused about the Gerudo theory; many have been claiming that since two Zeldas can exist at the same time, two Ganondorfs should be able to as well. But that’s not the point of the theory. The point is that IF the rule that the existence of one Gerudo male prevents the birth of another were true, the existence of one Ganondorf would prevent the birth of another while he is still alive, because there could not be two Gerudo males at once. Hope that clears it up.
3. I know not every Zelda game has to perfectly connect to the others, but this video is just for fun. I personally enjoy analyzing lore and theorizing about stuff Nintendo probably didn’t even think of; it enhances the gaming experience for me. If you don’t care about it then that’s okay!
Anyways thanks for all your feedback and personal ideas guys. It makes putting the effort into creating content worth it.
2. We don't know that other males havent been born since TotK's past, we only know that none of them have been made chief (from Creating a Champion). I'm of the opinion that they've still been born but just outcast, but it is up to interpretation.
2. Zeldas are clearly not reincarnations, anyway. They are no more than Hylia's descendants, carrying some of her powers within their bloodline (Zelda II already implied it before SS expanded on it).
Meanwhile , thanks to FSA, we know the two non-OoT Ganondorfs we have seen are most likely reincarnations. Similar to Link, only it happens less often because the guy simply refuses to die.
So I would say your point stands even stronger.
totk is important to the lore because it reveals what is canon in botw. For example, the pots at the temple of time are still there, so in the canon story, link didnt break them.
I was just noticing those pots and thinking this today.
But what if they actually return with each bloodmoon? They leave a little bit of dust when you smash them, and maybe the malice-particles are just too few and too small to be noticeable.
That would also explain why Link is innately aggravated by pots and smashes them every chance he gets.
Hahahaha, love it. 😂
I refuse to believe a Link would choose not to break a pot.
I like the idea of Rauru founding a new Hyrule. It’s already been re-founded in Spirit Tracks so that theory… tracks
Nice
So technically the kingdom's been founded three times and how many triforce pieces are there
That’s pretty obvious isn’t it? This was clear from the beginning to me. I always thought BoTW was so far in the future there was no reason to assume Rauru lived at Skyward Sword era
*rimshot*
Issue with it being a “new hyrule” is the fact that Rauru was aware of using a pristine Forgotten Temple.
The temple was only new directly after Skyward Sword. And the idea that Rauru is aware of the ancient and important temple in the series but is always unaware of Hyrule’s history is idiotic.
Also the OoT land marks like the Temple of time do not exist in Rauru’s ancient past.
i refuse to believe it’s possible for TOTK ganondorf to be the ganondorf we first met in OoT. i refuse to believe that our OG ganondorf would come back and *not know* who link and zelda are or what the master sword is. he doesn’t even mention the triforce. there is just no way that the ‘dorf we already know would ever forget all the shit he’s been through with various links & zeldas. i’m still a different ‘dorf truther
Yeah that’s what I was thinking too. That Ganondorf went through too much crap to not know what the hell the master sword or link is capable of 😭
Maybe tens of thousands of years sealed away as a barely alive husk messes with a person's memory.
@@jayb8934 ehh I doubt it. He recognized Zelda immediately after waking up as the one who was present during his sealing. He seems to not be aware of any other iterations of Link and Zelda; this was his first and only time fighting them.
The Tears Ganondorf may be a reincarnation the same way the Four Swords Adventures Ganondorf is. Same soul, new life. Same as Link and Zelda.
So, I don't know about any other Version, but in the German dub, when Rauru tells him about Link, Ganondorf repeats that name as if he knows it and says that this should be fun.
Another issue with TotK's past taking place before Ocarina is the fact that Ganon had to be sealed under Hyrule Castle, meanwhile Hyrule Castle was destroyed during Link's 7 year slumber in Ocarina of Time and it was said in the game that the castle was place on top of Ganon to protect the seal.
Yooo I didn’t even think of that
But does that necessarily mean that if the castle breaks = the seal breaks? The way I interpret it is that the royal family established themselves on top of Ganon to keep watch over the seal
@@sethrod13 The damage was so severe that it probably would have fallen on Ganondorf, which might have dislodged Rauru’s arm entirely
Think of it this way: his soul reincarnated, not his body. After he was sealed by Roaru, he went to the second Ganondorf (Oot). And after both were killed (WW being sealed at the bottom of the ocean and old Hyrule and TP being shanked), the third one in the Child Timeline was born. Then when he's sealed away the Dragon Break happened, fusing all the timelines which allowed his soul to go back to his original body.
@@LunaP1 Nah that wouldn't make sense
More evidence to show that the past of TOTK is later in the timeline is shown by the forgotten temple being present in Zonai times. The temple is distinctly NOT Zonai in design which we can infer means it was built well before their time, and that it was possibly a relic from a previous version of Hyrule.
Edit : more proof that the forgotten temple is hylian is that at the base of the goddess statue, there is hylian writing. I guess you could argue the forgotten temple was built around where the sages took their vows, however it looks much older and more weathered compared to the zonai door that was unprotected inside the temple.
The material and design of Forgotten Temple is purely Zonai. The reason why the temple features Hylian language and culture is because it was likely reconstructed during the time of TotK's past similar to how the Sealed Temple of Hylia was reconstructed into the second known Temple of Time (chronologically), theoretically, the one from OoT (not to be confused with the Great Plateau Temple of Time, which merely happens to have almost the same exact exterior design).
@PJCLink it feels like in BOTW they wanted the forgotten temple to be the sealed temple remains and they wanted OOT hyrule to be within this new map but inTOTK they retconned the great plateau and forgotten temple to be part of a new hyrule kingdom instead of connected to the older games.
@@nworder4life Yes. Agreed! That's what it seems like to me too. I initially thought the Forgotten Temple was the Sealed Temple also. Then TotK came along and knocked that idea right out the window. But it is for the better I guess. Trying to figure how BotW fit in the same Hyrule as past games only made all heads hurt in the end. lol! It's easier to just to accept that the Hyrule in BotW and TotK is a whole new Hyrule over the old as implied by the old maps leading to treasure found in the depths, which contain stuff from past Zelda games (aka, the Old Hyrule).
@@PJCVita92 Yea it kinda works because we can just say the Zonai wanted to imitate the old Hyrule by making a ranch and Hyrule town square but then Rauru doesn't even know there was another Hyrule so lol.
The depths are just the land where the Zonai lived (because of all the mining and facilities there) it's not old Hyrule and those treasures with armor and weapons from the old games are just easter eggs. I mean why would there be a biggorns sword in a chest, makes no sense lol.
@@nworder4life Rauru could've just repeated what the first king of Old Hyrule did, assuming that OoT's Rauru was that first king. lol! It's a thing that people believe that when we forget about what came before, we sometimes tend to unintentionally recreate what came before. Basically, by forgetting history, we're bound to repeat it. It's likely that TotK Rauru is a Zonai reincarnation of the Hylian Rauru who forgot his old life, therefore ended up coming up with the same ideas and repeated a lot of what he had already done before, without realizing he did all that before in a much earlier life.
The Zonai didn't actually live in the depths (not long term anyways), but actually the sky. The depths happened to be where a lot of Zonai stuff ended up, much like that of what remains of Old Hyrule. I know the depths aren't actually Old Hyrule, but rather where a lot of what remained of Old Hyrule sunk down to. The same sort of thing happened in Oracle of Seasons with the Temple of Seasons being sunk into the Subrosia. That all said, no, the Old Hyrule treasures are not just easter eggs as they are actually physically a part of the game's world without any amiibo or dlc being required this. That "they're just easter eggs" argument may have worked when discussing the last game, but now that they're genuinely physically found with the help of physically existing "Old Maps" and even full out side quests, you can not just shrug them off as "just easter eggs" because that is what actually makes no sense!
That's like saying that the Gilded Sword is just an easter egg because it's optional sword that happens to bear some resemblances to the in-game sprite of the Magical Sword from Zelda 1. Or the Master Sword and Biggoron Sword in Oracle of Seasons/Ages are "just easter eggs" because you don't actually need to obtain them to beat the two games. And you don't need to beat Ganon in the linked game to beat the Oracle games, so does that mean that fighting Twinrova and Ganon in those two games were really "just easter eggs" because they're optional? Given how Twinrova and Ganon are only really a part of the story if play the games linked, I guess so. Maybe that's why so many people including Nintendo are now ignoring the linked game ending when it comes to the timeline placement for those two games. The linked game from the Oracle titles were really just one big easter egg all along I guess. Whatever.😒
I think this is backed up by the fact that, since Ganandorf has been sealed, calamity came out because he couldn't be birthed again within the 100 years. Evidence of this includes the tapestry and the events of botw. However, what do you think of things like dueling peaks being NOT split in the memories, but being split in ocarina of time and botw? The developers wouldnt have done something so specific on accident
Yeah I didn’t notice the dueling peaks thing until someone else mentioned it in a comment on this video. Would have been a dope detail to include but this is exactly why I wanted Zelda fans to watch this video and comment.
Wait, where are the dueling peaks in OoT?
@@S.I.L. behind lord jabu jabu apparently…we’re not sure if it’s the same landmark but an argument could be made that they are
@@shioftheham Yeah I call shenanigans. There isn't anything special about those rocks and such a landmark hasn't been named in the series before BotW. The closest thing is Spectacle Rock but that's weirdly enough usually in Death Mountain but is also near the desert in the Wild subseries.
Dueling peaks being in Ocarina of Time is likely headcanon tbh.
This is not the first reincarnation of Ganondorf, in Four Swords Adventures was an entirely new Ganondorf being born and turns into the new Ganon, meaning there are actually THREE Ganondorfs
That is correct. Forgot about FSA Ganondorf during the making of this vid, that’s on me 😅
The rito could have evolved from a group of zora that got separated, and the rest of the zora could have been chillin far away…right?
We already know Zoras exist in other Kingdoms like Labrynna, so it’s possible.
There is also the ”eary” problem with Hylian ears. In Raurus time, the people of Hyrule including queen Sonia seems to have larger ears than modern day hylians. But in Skyward Sword, the skyloftians seems to have modern day ears...
Wow I never noticed that. Hard to assess what is an artstyle difference at this point tho 💀
That won’t make any sense because Skyloft existed before the kingdom of Hyrule and Demise is the main reason why Ganondorf exists
@@probenfetchak8076 Exactly
@@mrelast9765 yep Ganondorf originally had rounded ears. Same with most of the Gerudo in OOT as well I think. Some people say that Ganondorf only gets pointy ears after wielding the triforce, as they are pointy in WW and TP, and I believe also at the end of OOT. I think that would demonstrate that TOTK’s Ganondorf is different, because he’s never wielded the triforce and thus still has rounded ears. Again, just a theory.
You could alway default to the idea of "It's so far in the past that the details of the legends are distorted"
But, of course, this seems like a rarher convenient way to explain away any inconsistencies
One thing that's possible with the 2 Ganondorf theory is that whatever magic from Demise that caused Ganondorf to be reincarnated considered Ganondorf dead when he fought Rauru. After all, he looked like a Zombie, the only thing that kept him alive was the secret stone. Therefore for all intents and purposes, he was dead, and a new Ganondorf according to Demise's curse was born. The secret stone took totk Ganondorf from essentially a zombie and revived him.
That makes sense!
My personal headcanon is a derivative of the "timeline split after skyward sword" theory. I believe that the infamous quote from Demise at the end of skyward sword isn't a curse, like everyone says it is; and it's more of a statement of fact. Reincarnation isn't limited to Link, Zelda and Ganon, it is a fundamental part of the universe. Demise is just saying "I'll get ya once we all reincarnate" rather than casting a curse.
So then, there's a timeline split when SS Link returns to the present after defeating Demise. But back in the timeline that Link left, the events of Skyward Sword haven't happened yet. But the same people are born, and similar events occur. Due to the nature of reincarnation, similar events to most of the pre-BOTW games happen, but with slight differences. These events were in-part destined to happen, regardless of which timeline. Additionally, Hyrule gets founded much later in this timeline, after some people, who stayed in Skyloft, evolved into Zonai. Finally, we get to TOTK's ancient past. I believe this happens at the same point in time that OoT would have happened in the other timeline. This is why there's lots of parallels to OoT, while also being very different. This means, that OoT Ganondorf and ToTK Ganondorf ARE the same man, born at the same time, but in parallel timelines.
If you are committed to maintaining the so-called Zelda timeline, this is probably your best bet.
But let’s be real. The “timeline” was always a recon and the only motivation was book sales + social media engagement. Nintendo obviously doesn’t care about it and instead they chose to reboot the lore. That’s fine, the games are still incredibly fun to play, and for me that doesn’t diminish anything.
I’m just tired of all the content creators out there, twisting themselves into a 4-dimensional pretzel to preserve a timeline that doesn’t exist.
We need to break up the timeline and align our thinking with how the games were actually developed.
For me, the older 2D games (which got thrown into the silly fallen hero timeline by Nintendo) are a separate continuity from the other games. The fallen hero timeline was the original sin of this retconned timeline. In actuality, OoT was initially conceived as a retelling of the backstory from A Link to the Past, but Nintendo went off script during development and created something different with an outcome that doesn’t match ALttP’s back story. OoT is an immense game, and nobody seemed bothered at the time.
Ocarina of Time, Wind Waker, and Twilight Princess form a separate 3-part cycle with Majora’s Mask sprinkled in as a side adventure.
Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom form the latest continuity that is currently being developed.
The final piece of this puzzle is where Skyward Sword fits in. I am starting to believe that this is the game in which the lore was rebooted, but we didn’t notice at the time because it also worked as a plausible origin story for the previous games.
The SS-split-timeline theory conveniently follows this pattern and allows it to be the prequel for both continuities that otherwise are in complete disagreement with one another.
Nintendo’s PR suggests that they want fans to accept a distant future framing with a re-founding of Hyrule somewhere in the far far future compared to previous games. To me that statement is indistinguishable from a reboot.
@@user-dh1zg5dq7d Yeah, I'm in agreeance with you there. The main thing is that the plans to reboot likely began with Skyward Sword, and they didn't suddenly abandon the existing timeline with no explanation at BOTW, like people seem to think. It had already had it's proper sendoff.
That’s what I was kind of insinuating with the first theory. In the case that TOTK takes place in a timeline split, TOTK Ganondorf is just a parallel of OOT Ganondorf rather than a new incarnation. Pretty good theorizing!
@@shioftheham I think that’s the best you can do if you want to place it in the existing “timeline” without inserting an arbitrarily long gap that makes all previous games moot.
I’ve seen some wacky videos where people make ridiculous excuses in order to place it ~300 years before Ocarina on the unified timeline.
@@user-dh1zg5dq7dwhat if I enjoy the timeline? I think it makes sense and don’t think it’s just so Nintendo can make money or something. Personally, I don’t care if “it wasn’t intended” I don’t see how that makes the timeline invalid. You just seem to be a very negative person
At one point in the Zelda timeline there were two zeldas so I think that two gannondorfs are possible. Edit, actually there were three zeldas because the light dragon was flying and that is dragonifyed zelda.
If TOTK's past comes after all of the other timelines, then both TOTK Ganondorf and TOTK Zelda (Light Dragon) are the only incarnations of themselves that exist. There isn't two Zelda's existing simultaneously until BOTW Zelda is born, as the Light Dragon is still hidden in the skies. That's just my understanding though. I have only played a few of the other Zelda games, so I'm not sure which one you're referring to that has two Zeldas at the same time.
There is nothing preventing Zeldas from coexisting. It already happened in Adventure of Link. A common mistake is assuming all Zeldas to be reincarnations of Hylia. Actually only the OG one is. The others are simply her descendants and thus have inherited holy abilities.
Except Creating a Champion directly contradicts that. At least for TOTK Ganon. CaC specifically states that no Gerudo male has been made king since the King that became the first calamity.
And Zelda and Ganon's "reincarnation" doesn't work the same way at all. All Zelda's in the timeline simply share a name, their blood, and a somewhat similar personality. Multiple Zelda's can exist at once because the only thing special about her is her blood. Meaning anyone with said blood can be the main character Zelda. Ganon however, is a direct incarnation of Demise's hatred. And in all previous games no 2 incarnations of Demise's hatred have existed at once.
The differences between the 2 is 1 zelda is a descendant of Ss zelda not a reincarnation as all queens or princesses born have the sealing power whereas Ganondorf gets reincarnated like link and u can't reincarnate if your still alive only way around that would potentially be sending a Ganondorf back in time to before the first incarnation but even that's alittle iffy.
someone else may have already said it, but Zelda is a descendant not a reincarnation like Ganon and Link are, so there can be multiple Zeldas at once but not multiple Links or Ganons
if you pay attetion to the 2 green gerudo woman behind ganondorf, they wear some kind of scarf around their neck, and those scarfs are exactly the same that katoke and koume wears on their hair. One of the scarfs has green symbols and red stripes, and the other has red symbols and green stripes. And the symbols are also identical.
Very cool easter egg! Wish we got to see more of them in the game
I think those symbols are their names: Koume and Kotake, also inscribed on Ganon's blade, "Koumekotake". Also find it valid in a sense since they were the ones who birthed him and taught him sorcery.
@@tjstarzz9231 I didn't notice that those symbols are their names written in hylian language from ocarina of time. So this means that they really are canonicaly koume and kotake from ocarina of time.
@@tjstarzz9231They didn't birth him. In OoT at least they were his adoptive parents. His genetic ones probably died.
Check out their ugly haircuts too
My headcanon is that the timeline has a new split after Skyward Sword. The normal Timeline where the Zonai don’t appear and one where they do. It feels the cleanest to me and it’d explain why we never hear of the Zonai at all until BOTW.
Nintendo made that theory much weaker with the armors of other versions of Link being present in this game.
I really don't know why people are so confused about the placement of BotW and TotK in the Timeline, the official timeline already said that this happens way after every other game in the series.
@@imatiubecause stuff from totk contradict stuff from previous games, as for the armor, for the same reason that Ravio's hat and the fused shadow are in both games, they're just nods to previous games, and i don't think they're canon
@@sergioramirez924 What does it contradict? The founding of Hyrule? Nope, we have like 2 or 3 other foundings of Hyrule, one after Wind Waker and the one after Skyward Sword.
I really don't know what contradictory aspects you are talking about.
One of my issues with there being two Ganondorfs at a time is this:
Any time the Triforce is split, how does it know where to go? There are two souls in the world that embody the virtue of power. It's implied that Corpsedorf is still technically alive, but sealed and in stasis and not literally a dead body. After all, if he was dead there would be no need to seal him. So why does the triforce never find itself going to Corpsedorf? For that matter, why does it never go to Light Dragon Zelda? I'm more inclined to forgive that one though.
“Corpsedorf” lol
Btw…the women in the throne room with ganondorf in totk are Kuma and kotake. If you translate the gorudo on them it is their names(I didn’t figure this out, I’ve seen a few others videos pointing this out).
Thanks for the shout out! ❤ This video is legit. Im all about theory 3. IMO theres way too much evidence to support it, and alot to go against the idea that TotK PAST is between SS and MC. You might be into my next video, and its companion video with @wizcatcheslightning
I'll agree to that 😎
It always made more sense to me, that Rauru and Sonia were founding a "New" Hyrule, as one of the Timelines specifically mentions that old Hyrule (from OoT) was destroyed and "washed away" while Zelda and Link go on to a new continent, a "distant land" to found a new Hyrule. So this is either a THIRD Hyrule, or specifically does not occur in that Timeline.
Additionally, at the Start of the Timeline, Skyward Sword Zelda decides to leave the sky to live on the surface, yet by the story of the past in BotW/TotK, they Zonai descended from the Sky to lead the Hylians in founding Hyrule, and were seen basically as gods coming down from the sky, but the Hylians would have been very recently from the sky themselves and the two sky civilizations should have been familiar with eachother, as they were both, apparently followers of Hylia, and apparently Hylians were now primitives. This would make more sense if this occurred some time AFTER the first Zelda game, when everything is mostly collapsed due to all the damage caused by Ganon's rule.
Also, if TotK/BotW Ganondorf is the FIRST Ganon, then the Gerudo would have already had a cultural stigma against any male Gerudo leading them by the time of OoT and they would have already been allied with Hyrule, instead of being a neutral/antagonistic faction willing to be ruled by OoT Ganondorf (supposedly second Ganon). These events were only a few centuries apart, yet the Gerudo in TotK/BotW are allies to Hyrule and live with the knowledge that they will not submit to a male Gerudo, not because of the history of OoT Gannon, but because of the actions of BotW/TotK Ganon. And this is a shame and stain on their culture that is TEN THOUSAND years old, not the couple centuries it would have been by the time of OoT. This means its far more likely that even MORE time has pasted between OoT Ganon and Totk/BotW Ganon than a couple centuries, that TotK/BotW Ganon would have had to appeared AFTER OoT Ganon.
Agreed, the presence of the Rito in the TotK/BotW past pretty much solidifies that this has to have occurred AFTER the first Zelda game.
BoTW and ToTK take place in a completely different timeliness with events similar to the ones we have known before. It's placement is like more of a reboot/retelling of where the original LoZ and Link's Adventures take place but respective to this new timeline. So completely different Ganondorf/Ganon but similar events.
"Don't worry Zelda, the Triforce of Wisdom promises the King will safely return."
It does not make sense for 2 ganondorf to exist because unlike ZELDA, Ganondorf and Link Reincarnate. During the calamity, Ganondorf was never able to reincarnate for thousands of years, heck during the breath of the wild, the male gerudo being born was becoming a myth.
My theory is that because it’s technically a legend the same story could be retold 20 times each having different events.
I just think, like the marvel universe, it's a total different ganondorf, it's a multiverse
That would align with the first theory! A parallel Ganondorf essentially
You deserve so many more subs, the theory was amazing and very well thought out, before I checked the Chanel name I thought you had at least 100, 000 subs.
Thank you! I appreciate comments like yours because there are some people who straight up say “forget about it and just enjoy the game…”
My theory is that the past segments of TotK take place at the beginning of the Adult Timeline. As stated at the beginning of Windwaker, this was a timeline where the hero of legend never appeared and darkness spread over the land. There is no Link in Rauru's kingdom. It would make sense to me that this is the point in time when the Goddesses flooded Hyrule, which would also go along with the tears of the kingdom imagery
People forget but there already is a 2nd Ganondorf in four swords adventure, which plays long after twilight princess. This ToTK Ganondorf is a 3rd Ganondorf.
And in the fallen timeline Ganondorf never reincarnated after link to the past, but was revived once and attempted to be revived again in Zelda 2.
And Agahnim is a offshoot of Ganon, a part of his soul that he used to infiltrate hyrule.
And in Link Between Worlds you got Yuga Ganon, who was a fusion of Ganon and Yuga. This Ganon was the one who was sealed after link to the past.
And in Zelda 1 he was still the same ganon from OOT but a revived version.
And in Zelda 2 it was implied that he would be revived again, but it would still be the same. Not a reincarnation.
So there are 3 different Ganondorfs in Zelda.
BotW/ToTk Ganondorf/Ganon
OOT, ALtP, LBW, TP, WW, Zelda 1 and 2 Ganondorf/Ganon
And Fourswords Adventure Ganondorf/Ganon who came after OOT Ganondorf and before BoTW/ToTK Ganondorf.
I believe that when they created botw they intended the timeline to continue so far into the future that it didn't matter what they did but I believe that totk is more of a reboot than anything else, we see new explanations for many different things and a new imprisoning war
Someone theorized that the person who sells link the Gerudo Outfit in Breath was the Gerudo Male born in the hundred years, but was raised as a girl to protect them from the stigma that Ganondorf created when he was the ruler of the Gerudo
He has obviously masculine traits, like gray shadow around his mouth. It’s pretty obvious that he is the Gerudo male, though most people seem to ignore him for some reason.
I think the mere fact that we find items from previous games in the depths, shows that it all happens far in the future
My headcanon since botw, where everyone still wondered how there's references to all timelines, is:
Ganondorf got his wish at the end of wind waker and the interpretation of "hyrule" was so vague, that just all instances of hyrule were joined back to one, with aspects of each.
Maybe a bit lazy thinking, but for me it works :D
Rauru 'founding' Hyrule(a lost kingdom) and ruling it could make it why he doesn't recognize Zelda, because her own family probably 'founded' Hyrule as well, it could've been a lost kingdom at one point too after Rauru found it, or even before. Which I can see that they're could be OTHER people out there who had at one point founded and ruled a Hyrule at many other point in times. Which could make Hyrule even older than We thought, or could possibly mean there's a 'mulitverse' out there that are seething into other LoZ universes. Idk, jus a long rant I guess
I have noticed a few odd things about time travel in the Zelda Franchise: It seems like an individual traveling through time and altering events results in events changing in the present time, but in a manner that does not effectively alter the way that people have operated up to the point when the Time Traveler went back.
For example, when the Hero of the Sky went back in time to plant the Seed of Life for the Thunder Dragon in Skyward sword, and Groose acts like the Tree had always been there, but in spite of it having always been there, no one had collected the Fruit for other purposes until the Hero returned and picked the fruit himself.
Similarly, when Demise was killed in the past at the end of Skyward Sword, the Hero placed the fully upgraded Master Sword in a Pedestal in the Sealed Temple at the Sacred Grounds in the past before returning to his own time. Back in the Present, the Master Sword was implied to have always been there, but the Hero, Impa, and Groose had, for whatever reason, simply not bothered to pick it up. Further, when the Hero, Zelda, and Groose leave the building, we immediately see people from Skyloft flying down to greet them, almost as if they had just suddenly realized that flying down was a thing that they could do, even though Demise's defeat in the past would have meant that the Barrier hiding the Surface world from them never needed to be a thing.
This has an interesting effect when applied to Zelda going back in time in Tears of the Kingdom. Consider all of the things that are just randomly different between now and then. The things that don't make a lot of sense. Sky Islands that no one saw before, Geoglyphs that according to Impa and a few others, had just appeared, Shieka technology vanished as if it had never been there, Caves and chasms opening up unexpectedly, and past events Link would have been present for (He was always by Zelda's side) but could not remember (lots of stuff Link investigates with Pen suggests that Zelda did a lot of stuff he should have already known about), as well as the presence of the Light Dragon who had been absent in the last game.
It sounds suspiciously like a Time Traveler in the Past altering history in a way that prevents anyone effected by it from noticing until after it was done.
Amazing video! I’ve been searching for different perspectives about the TOTK timeline placement and loved your video so much.
Personally I think that the game, same as BOTW, gives the idea that this Hyrule is one far off in the future. I’ve always thought about Zelda’s speech (in BOTW) in which she appoints Link as the legend’s hero. She mentions different iterations of Link along the timelines.
An argument about TOTK being before Ocarina of Time could be made, but it seems like a really long time for it to be true and there are conflicting factors as you stated.
Overall, amazing video! Will be watching more of yours soon!
I appreciate it!
Everyone is talking about Ganon “having” to be OOT Ganon and I’m confused sitting here like… “why? It’s clear that TOTK’s earliest flashbacks still take place MILLENIA after any other Zelda game. Why are ya’ll trying to connect them?”
nice video! you deserve more subs.
Thank you!
I like how you start playing good, proud, and epic music the moment the best theory starts at 11:40. Your video is dripping with bias because of this. Fortunately, you picked the right theory, so I like your bias video editing showing through.
Will admit that it is probably my favorite theory. That said, some people in this comment section bring some good evidence to support the second theory as well.
@@shioftheham The second theory would ruin the timeline with the extreme retcons, may as well be a full reboot at that point.
I personally agree with your first option presented, that being the TotK and BotW take place in there own separate timeline after skyward sword. There's a fantastic video done by gamba goons which I'll link in a reply that explains this theory better. (It also fixes the downfall time line and the weird four swords games placement)
czcams.com/video/clT-KrXtUSk/video.html
I’m personally a subscriber of the Timeline Convegence theory, but I also combine it with the Skyward Sword Split Timeline Theory. My biggest pieces of evidence are that:
1: no triforce, as the timeline where Demise is killed by Link didn’t need the Triforce.
2: BOTW confirms the existence of all 3 major timelines.
3: and most importantly, the presence of the Goddess Sword.
The Goddess Sword is the primitive form of the Master Sword found in SKyward Sword. It was taken to the springs and blessed to change forms. Eventually it was blessed by Full Power Zelda to become the Master Sword. The fact it exists creates a paradox. How do we have both the Master Sword and the Goddess Sword? Simple, timeline Convergence. The 3 major ones converged into one other timeline, bringing at least one Master Sword with it.
Maybe Raru re-established the kingdom in the War of Unification. Zelda from OOT was the daughter of Raru and Sonia, and Ganondorf was imprisoned in the Depths, which were also known as the Sacred Realm/Dark Realm.
TOTK's past takes place DURING Ocarina of Time, which is why both games have a sage named Raru.
There is a problem with BotW and Tears of the Kingdom being in a new timeline branch separate from the rest of the series. That problem is the speech that Zelda says in memory one in BotW. It clearly states “Whether skyward bound, adrift in time, or steeped in the glowing embers of Twilight…” and Calamity Ganon’s description in the Hyrule Compendium mentions Ganondorf’s King of Evil title from Ocarina of Time.
I always thought/ theorised that Botw timeline takes place as a unifying event. Some major event occurred that caused all timelines to merge. Which is devastating to say the least so a new hyrule was found and also how zora and Rito are able to coexist
After scratching my head over this while playing the game, I was wondering about that too. I also came to the conclusion that it would have to be a "rebirth" of Hyrule. My head jumped immediately to the flooding of Hyrule. At the end of Wind Waker, the former king wished to give this world a new chance and wash away the old sins, which broke the barrier between the sunken Hyrule and the great sea above. I imagine, that at some point, the Great Sea lowers itself again, and the "cleansed land" was ripe for a new chance. By that time, the Rito problem could be solved. The issue of Rauru being the first king of Hyrule would also be solved. And Ganondorf would be just a reincarnation, as many important figures would be, since these events played are very reminiscent of what happened in Ocarina of Time - history merely seems to repeat itself, thanks to the curse of Demise.
Favorite Ganondorf:
Wind Waker - He no longer cared for revenge and truely just wanted to revive his people and their prosperity, as I saw it.
"But the winds that blew across the green fields of Hyrule brought something other than suffering and ruin. I coveted that wind, I suppose."
He doesn't care to hurt Link, once he has been clearly proven to be the heir to the Triforce of Courage. (If Link could not overcome the many challenges put forth than he surely wouldn't be, and instead just a foolhardy young boy.)
"Do not fear. I will not kill you… I merely have need of the power that dwells within you."
I'm left wondering what sort of world he would have brought about. Surely he would likely be corrupted over time, but I don't think it would be a speedy change.
This Ganondorf is so incredibly powerful and Demise-like that he really feels like the first reincarnation of Demise to me. He straight up conjures monsters out of his malice, lifting a blood moon into the sky, etc.
In fact, I think his malice is the key to understanding how he could be sealed away beneath the castle, but also show up in other incarnations-it’s like his malice is always seeking a way to embody itself, like his soul is bound up in it. That malice is oozing out of him even while he is sealed. I think it found it’s way into the body of OOT Ganon as a baby, perhaps aided by the two witches. 🤔
I haven’t yet given much consideration to the castle being destroyed in OOT and what that might means about the location of corpse Ganondorf etc, etc, but TOTK Ganondorf sure is deep below ground by the time TOTK begins.
I am still mulling over the timeline placement, myself, but Rauru and Sonia could definitely be the founders of Hyrule. Skyward Sword Link and Zelda moved to the surface, but that doesn’t mean Hyrule was established as a kingdom at that time, not even close.
The biggest riddle to me is where the Zonai come from. The sky, yes, but where?? Outside the scope of Skyloft? Were they always a sky people, and therefore not part of the original fight between Hylia and Demise? Were they on the surface the whole time like Impa and the other Sheikah? Did they not exist yet? After all, Skyward Sword doesn’t exactly square away why only Hylians were sent up to the sky.
Great fun to ponder! They sure gave us a lot of loose ends to try and weave together!
It’s pretty clear to me that there is no Zelda timeline, at least not in the way we tend to think. Obviously there is no real intention on the part of the devs to create a cohesive overarching narrative, but rather to create a loosely tied together franchise. Allow me to explain. I believe that each Zelda game is only canon to itself, meaning that for example ocarina of time’s events happened, but only within the bounds of that game. The reason there are references to oot in botw and totk, referencing ruto as a sage and such, is because games further back on the “timeline” are legends to the game in question. This fixes a lot of problems with the timeline as a whole, such as very different world building and mechanics in each game. It simply doesn’t make sense for so many different individually built worlds to be the same canon hyrule. This was most supported, at least to me, with Rauru being the name of the first king of hyrule. If we go off of the legends theory, we can say that Rauru the king and Oot Rauru, sage of light, are the same person, and Oot is an “inaccurate” telling of the imprisoning war. The more I look into it, the more similar I feel Oot is to the imprisoning war era. Even down to Ganondorf pledging fake allegiance to the king. The mentions of ruto awakening as a sage in botw could even refer to the ancient sage of water. She does wear a mask reminiscent of Ruta, so it could be her name IS ruto, and ruta was constructed to honor her, and the same for all the other sages. I could go on, but this fixes a whole lot more, including the ancient hero’s aspect, the Twili’s relation to the zonai, and of course all the contradictions in the universe like how koroks rito and Zora all love in the same universe despite being from different timelines. It is all legend. There is an unknown true history, and a false history loosely based on fact, being all the earlier Zelda games.
My theory, is that because of the mentions of the imprisoning war, maybe sometime in between ocarina of time and the war itself, Hy rule was destroyed and reconstructed making rauru technically the founder of hyrule. So the past events take place right as the imprisoning war starts. I also think that Ganondorf in OOT is the same a TOTK, because the fallen hero timeline is the only timeline without a Ganondorf. The only problem is that there is the Rito warrior, but I couldn’t think of any other explanation of the timeline.
My best guess is it's after hyrule got completely flooded and water washed away everything
I want to mention that in the English dub, Rauru says that he’s the first king of Hyrule with an added comment of “or so I was the last time I checked” and I feel like that line right there is enough to solidify the last theory
I think he was just making a joke, not actually being confused.
My apologies for the crappy audio quality at the beginning of the vid y’all 💀
I haven't looked up other theories yet, but I currently believe it's in the hero's downfall timeline. I think it's been reinterpreted as "The hero was never chosen" timeline, which was created after Link defeated Demise the second time in the past. I think the history of the different timelines slowly merge over time, which is why small changes in the past seem to be reflected in the present in games like skyward sword and OoT. So by the time AlttP and WW come around, the rebirth of the hero eventually bleeds into these timelines. This is also why we see references to all three timelines by the time BotW takes place. I think each resurrection of Gannon in the original timeline is possible because his power is beneath Hyrule castle the whole time. I think the Rito evolve earlier, and differently in this timeline, or maybe it's just an art decision that makes them look different.
My problem with saying that it all happens after is the fact that we still see the ruins of OoT's Hyrule on the great platou, and we see Rauru, Sonia, and Zelda defending it from the Garudo. It seems a lot like Hyrule was moved specifically to build a new castle over the chamber Gannondorf was sealed in.
I believe that with the hole gerudo male thing in botw and totk is that after ganondorf shenanigans the gerudo swore of males meaning their own kind. So either they were banished or killed (probably killed to prevent ganondorfs return)and the reason we don't have records is because the gerudo didn't record it because they wanted to keep it secret
I believe that botw and totk takes place in a alternate universe
Time for my input: The "two ganon theory"
Before I do, some assumptions:
- Zonai can live far longer than Hylians can, possibly well into the hundreds to thousands of years.
- Ganon #1 never died, but lived outside of time due to having the time stone, with only his malice remaining (literally seeping into time itself)
- There was or were more Zonai left, other than Rarau and his sister that even they did not know about
On those assumptions, the "Two Ganon Theory" could work. But how?
Firstly, the Zonai hero with red hair. With Ganon effectively out of the main timeline, another Gerudo was born, this time a Zonai hybrid. He would eventually go on to become the hero who defeats Calamity Ganon with the help of a princess Zelda and the Sheikah technology...furthermore, he most likely aided the Sheikah in building that technology to begin with, due to his knowledge of Zonai devices.
He defeats Calamity Ganon (the malice) and effectively goes into a couple hundred year retirement with the Mastersword, thus preventing any other males being born. This also explains where the Master Sword is, during the events of "4 Swords" and "The minish Cap", quite possibly leaving him sealed inside the sacred realm or at least leaving the sword there after his death...100 years later, OOT Ganon is born...
Events continue as usual, up and until Zelda and Link start fucking with the timeline..This causes a timeline split, however, Ganon #1 is still outside of time, which isnt rectified until....Calamity Ganon returns. This forces the timelines to basically recombine while his power returns from a period of basically being non-existant, thus bringing all the timelines crashing together since they all have the same version of Ganon #1...each with a sacred stone of time, leading us into the events of BoTW.
More Proof...If Demise was known to control time and Ganon #1 was literally the reincarnation of him, but with a time stone...would that not effectively double his time altering effects?
I personally believe the third theory where TotK (Past), BotW, and TotK (Present) take place after all the other games where Hyrule somehow fell and was eventually reestablished by Rauru and Sonya. Maybe one day we'll get a game where some kind of cataclysmic event occurs that somehow merges all 3 timelines and wipes out Hyrule, basically refreshing the timeline and leading into the era of Rauru and Sonya. Maybe the cataclysmic event that does this is the destruction of the Triforce or something like that. It would explain why it's not present in BotW or TotK.
The second theory just makes the most sense to me
I think this theory Makes sense because it would mean that there aren't two master swords. That part always confused me. Plus the rito thing is an excellent point too
since Rauru has founded a new hyrule since the old one was forgotten or destroyed, than i’m thinking that some devestating event or calamity happened between totk(past) and the other games which utterly destroyed the old hyrule.
The timelines have converged making an entirely new reality. Like in the flash after crisis when all the different worlds and timelines converge . It makes all timelines true or elements of them. So it is Ganon dorf. It’s the reincarnation of demise any way we cut it
Here are a couple extra theories:
- Maybe Gerudo names are gendered and there's only one male Gerudo name, so what if Ganondorf is just what they use for every Gerudo male every time? It's like if the only male name we had was Joe and every guy was named Joe.
- I had thought that Agahnim from aLttP was the Ganondorf of the fallen hero timeline, but maybe not. Maybe after OoT Ganondorf became Ganon, his spirit as Ganondorf separated from his body and fused to the Ganondorf we see in ToTK through time travel shenanigans.
- OoT Ganondorf's parents are powerful witches, so maybe they used dark magic to make a copy of the ToTK Ganondorf who they either knew personally (since we saw green skinned Gerudo women in the cutscene) or had heard legends of. I'm not sure how the spirit of Demise's hatred would fit into that though. I guess either the spirit split and the Ganondorf we see in OoT is half of Demise's power, or maybe ToTK Ganondorf's dehydrated body is like a summer vacation home for Demise's spirit and he leaves to try and thwart Hyrule every once in a while and returns when things don't work out. We do see that his spirit can manifest outside his body in BoTW after all.
I prefer the 4th timeline theory, because TotK just makes things to awkward to fit. Cant work within the current timeline, so either its not apart of the current timeline (as a 4th, likely from Skyward sword) or so far into the future that the events can take place without any direct connection.
Something else I want to point out how 2 Ganondors could also come to existence is by the creation of puppets shown in OoT which could twist things a bit.
I think botw’s hyrule is a new founding of the kingdom after it was destroyed in some climatic event that also killed Ganondorf. This would explain how we have rauru having founded hyrule, the existence of the Rito and gerudo in rauru’s hyrule, how the imprisoning war is a different event than the one in a link to the past, and that the Ganondorf from totk is simply a reincarnation of him. This would also explain why we’ve never seen zonai or zonai tech before, and why so many events in totk’s timeline simply doesn’t make sense in the grand Zelda timeline.
Here’s the thing. Tearsdorf is most definitely the demon king and a reincarnation of demise, if he was really underground for the entirety of the timeline, it wouldn’t make sense for ocarinadorf to exist.
Also, hyrule castle moves from game to game, which means Tearsdorf wouldn’t actually have a place to be sealed underground for thousands of years.
you also mention that one gerudo male can only be born every 100 years. I think that the only male gerudos that exists is a ganondorf is because every gerudo male has to be a ganondorf, and if the previous one doesn’t die, another one can’t be born.
Tearsdorf has absolutely no reason powerful as he is and have the abilities that he does unless he is a reincarnation of demise/ocarinadorf
This theory respects the canonicity of each game by not intruding on those game’s established canon, but using said canon to explain the game’s events.
This also explains how “the history of the royal family of hyrule is the same as the history of calamity ganon”
Personally, I choose to believe theory number 2. As convoluted as it is, the Oot Ganondorf being born can be explained as Ganon’s hatred leaking out from underneath the castle, giving birth to a new incarnation of the same man. The whole no more Gerudo males being born thing could possibly be explained by Zelda’s line in reference to Dark Beast Ganon ; “He has given up on reincarnation and assumed his pure enraged form.” Possibly implying that ever since Calamity Ganon has been a thing, no other incarnations of Ganondorf have been born.
Also, great video dude!
I Theorize that the events we see in tears of the kingdom are a split timeline event. when zelda interfered with the distant past it split the timeline. and the simple reason that Ganon dragmire was even there was he followed zelda to the past. why? He was simply chasing his sacred stone.. the reason the hurylan past doesn't align with what we know is . these events rewrote the past...
by the way, knowing that dragmires decomposing corpse and willful hatred had possession of sonias timestone under the castle during the events of Botw really alings in my mind with the merging of the timelines... all that corruption in possession of a timestone for eons .... corupted the entire timeline.. twisting it. merging it...
Oh, and yeah, my theory is that some sort of event happened that wasn’t major, but my theory is that all of the timelines fused into one big breath of the wild, and then split off again into a second branch and fused back together
Nice work, I absolutely hate the idea of a "merging" of the timelines, so you did a wonderful job of explaining the possible ways in wich TotK fits better with the previous timelines.
One thing to add is, in your 2nd theory (which I admit is my favorite), the birth of Ganondorf Dragmire could be solved by the magic of the witch sisters. During Ocarina is heavily implied that they had a close bond to this new 2nd Ganondorf wich we thought was the og. That would only leave us with the Rito problem... wich could be explained by the race evolving back and forward (more explaining would have to be done in that aspect).
But... as much as I want the events of TotK fitting within the other games, I also have to admit the 3erd theory is the simplest. I often argue the simplest explanation is the best... I will have to take a closer look into this.
Yeah so if the 2nd theory is true, the rito could have moved away as a group after the past events of TOTK, because evolving back in forth doesn’t really make sense….though the entire group coming about and moving away between SS and MC doesn’t really make sense either…😅
I think that the flashback events of Tears take place 200-500 years after Skyward, perhaps the Zonai are hyper-evolved Hylians who stayed behind when the others left to the surface, due to the cold of being so high up, and videogame evolution logic, this may have caused these major adaptations to this environment. perhaps the Loftwings went extinct and they were all cut off from the surface, so this halted all trade, making Rauru and Mineru the last two due to the dying of the population at the hands of some sort of mass extinction. And afterwards they could have made their way down to the surface to see if their ancient precursors had survived, of course, they brought some of their advanced tech, stories, and culture with them, and Rauru became the first king due to the reverence at this gift these strangers had brought.
where can i watch that video where that person asked about breath of the wild being before or after ocarina of time
Aside from the existence of the Rito... i think the BIGGEST point that proves BotW/TotK past occurs AFTER the first Zelda game... is the existence of the Yiga Clan. The Yiga would have been a very obvious presence in almost all the other Zelda games, as they were already present during the Past events of BotW/TotK, as you can even see their depictions in the Calamity murals, and were not a 'recent' group that developed round the time of the present day events.
Maybe ganondorfs seal maybe slowed down/ limited the gerudo males. There is TOTK Ganondorf, OG ganondorf, and im sure there is another in Four Swords Adventures. Due to TP and WW, the OG ganondorf lasted probably like 400+ years, and the Four Swords adventures ganondorf was sealed, so he necessarily want dead, not to mention Ganon in the fallen timeline was still originally Ganondorf from Ocarina of time. These all mean that 1-2 ganondorfs existed over all 3 timelines and took a long time to die. During TP, this iteration of ganondorf dies and is reborn later in Four Swords Adventures. This seems like a long time (changes in the map and feel to the game compared to eachother) so maybe that amount of time is how long it takes for another Ganondorf to be reborn. It could be 10,000+ years for all we know, which means that it could be the amount of time it takes for another ganondorf to be born, and could also show why after Four Swords Adventures, this was when all of the timelines met and calamity ganon occurred. Maybe during the Sheikah/ Calamity Ganon timeline, that time limit to another Ganondorf had not finished.
Sorry for the poor description of this, i struggle to explain things very well.
One other thing that damns the first two theories is that calamity ganon was an incarnation of ganondorf's hatred for the people on the surface. So why wasn't calamity ganon attacking in the other games?
Maybe the calamity did strike, in the form of the other Ganons. Perhaps the malice could take a more human form given enough time... I dunno...
Even if he were sealed that alone would discredit reincarnation, how could he be reincarnated if he isn't dead nor alive?
I'd actually like to know what story content was cut from TotK, there are some interesting bits of dialogue that is never really elaborated on . So, in the memory where Rauru seals the demon king, they all attack to distract him, and he says " I've seen this before" as if hes able to see the future.
now I thought maybe it was because he's using Sonia's stone that enhanced her power over time, but I don't think that's how it works. Anyway I think there was supposed to be more time travel bits that may have been cut from the game and the dialogue was just left in there.
The evidence that TOTK takes place after every other zelda game has been around since BOTW. Remember the zora inscriptions scattered across zora's river in both games? one of them tells the story of the hero of time fighting alongside Ruto. and then we got ritos and koroks, plus the crystallized salt found everywhere. How much more do you need?
One of my favorite depictions of Ganondorf is the Twilight Princess one, though ToTK is starting to change that. Also it makes sense to have the third idea. I like the idea of a second Hyrule being founded. Because otherwise, I don't want to picture 2 Ganondorf's I can't imagine one being underneath hyrule castle with the events of Ocarina of Time. It doesn't make sense, that Ganondorf under the castle would've been released as soon as the OoT Ganondorf gained dominion, then we would've seen two Ganondorf's. Rauru's seal would've been undone. It only makes sense for there being a second Hyrule.
I hope the third game will be as chaotic as possible. I want to see a different demon king. I want this demon king to actually battle us at during different points of the game, somewhat like Ghirahim. I don't want the dude camping at his lair, I want to see him active, and out to get us.
6:22 Zelda references several of the older games/past Links in the oath Link takes in BOTW.
The in-game lore of Ganondorf allows for a rebirth seperate from a revival. Calamity Ganon was his spirit being made flesh, even though his true form was still locked away in the depths. So there's no reason his evil spirit could not posses a Gerudo Born male, twisting his mind and using the male as a puppet for Ganondorf's desires, like how Astor was used in Age of Calamity, controlled by malice to then be used to revive a form of Ganon.
I think this theory makes things more complicated tbh
i agree to the second theory, like, yeah, saying that TOTK and BOTW happens after all there games is the easiest solution, but we know that the zonai are part from the earliest legends, which would include ocarina of time since Ruto it's mentioned in one of zora monuments, which would atomatically mean that the ocarina of time happens AFTER the zonai descended to found Hyrule, i also don't see a problem with being two ganondorfs alive at the same time, since we've seen in Zelda 2 that two incarnations of zelda can exist in the same time period, and we've also seen TP Link interact with OOT Link (the Hero's Shade) despite both links having the spirit of the hero, so ganondorf from TOTK existing with OOT ganondorf makes sense.
I would also point out something curious and is that Hidemaro Fujibayashi, director of both TOTK and BOTW, also worked on Skyward Sword, The Minish Cap, Four Swords, The Oracles and Phantom Hourglass, which is curious, since the first three were intended as the oldest stories in the chronology, so it would make me very strange that the same guy who made those games, did not take the opportunity to make the story of the founding of the same kingdom of hyrule that we have seen in the rest of the games.
It’s explicitly stated that there hasn’t been another male Gerudo since totk ganon. So with that information it makes it impossible that Totk’s zonai past takes place before oot, since oot ganon wouldn’t exist, it also can’t be reincarnation either since Totk ganon never died, he’s just been stuck in a hole in stasis. The comparisons with the two Zelda’s/hero’s shade doesn’t apply to Totk ganondorf for the same reasons, it just doesn’t work
I think the 3rd option is the only one that can work. Gannondorf existing, being sealed and causing calamities is enough to prove this correct. Another point that proves this is the rito, the events of wind waker are confirmed to lead into botw. This means the rito of botw are evolved Zora and any appearance of the rito means its after wind waker. It’s even implied in the memories (you can see zonai ruins built on top of older hyrulein ones).
Yep I like the point about the rito. However, someone in this comment section did mention that the dueling peaks cannot be seen in the landscape of TOTK’s past, but IS present in OOT. This actually points towards the second option possibly being correct 🤔
@@shioftheham that is a good argument, but in Oot the cliff in question isn’t split down all the way like the dueling peaks. This means it’s either a different cliff or the dueling peaks were fully split after oot.
in the past scenes, the land of hyrule in Rauru's time looks remarkably similar to botw hyrule. Considering how much hyrule changes game to game, it would be really odd for the land of hyrule to take one form, change bunches of times, then end up the exact same as it was thousands of years earlier.
Also, alternate hyrules have been created before, look at Spirit tracks. Rauru's Hyrule is most definitely a new iteration of the kingdom.
As for the amiibo sets, the fashion lady in Hateno recognizes the armor sets when you wear them, and will make remarks pertaining to their respective games. I think that solidifies their place as part of this timeline, which rules out this game being an alternate timeline. And it would also suggest that all the events of those separate games happened in this timeline, which could mean the timelines merged.
I agree with your assessment. The one and only contradiction I found was Zelda saying the following in the beginning of the game. Quote: "The Zonai are said to have lived long ago, in the time of earliest legend."
...'Earliest Legend'.
The legends of other Links are known in BotW. In BotW's Zora Stone Monument Nr. 5, the Hero of Time is mentioned. "It is said that Ruto then awoke as a sage, facing this foe alongside the princess of Hyrule and the hero of legend."
If we go by this quote, the Zonai descended before OoT, but I for one will gladly throw away this one sentence from Zelda if it means fixing multiple glaring holes in the timeline.
That’s a great detail!
Nabooru the sage is also mentioned, and the Divine Beasts are said to be named after the ancient sages as well. So even aside from Zelda's quote, if this is supposed to be a re-founding of Hyrule, we would have to accept that while the kingdom itself is so old that it was completely forgotten and re-established, records of people and events from within that original kingdom were not. I don't believe that it was the intentions of the creators for this to be a refounding. I think they meant for the TOTK past to take place after Skyward Sword. They just told the story they wanted to tell, sealed Ganon under the castle because they thought it was cool, included the Rito because they felt like it, and left it up to us to grapple with whatever contradictions and inconsistencies these choices resulted in. For many fans, that does mean interpreting the TOTK past as taking place at the end of the timeline, and I think that is perfectly valid as the creators have encouraged finding the timeline placement that works for oneself. Personally, given creative enough explanations, I don't think that any of the timeline problems TOTK's past has introduced are too much to reconcile with the existing timelines, especially if you allow for the standard amount of retcons most Zelda games seem to introduce. I haven't settled on my headcanon explanations for everything yet but I enjoy thinking about it. I hope that a sequel to Master Works for TOTK will eventually come out and make things more clear.
There is one big argument that you missed for Theory 1 (TotK is in its own timeline), and one that I personally adhere to :
The games from the Downfall Timeline take place in between TotK and BotW in this "cursed" timeline.
There's a whole video made by GambaGoons going into detail about how defeating Demise in the past creates a new timeline, where the heroes are cursed with a "reincarnating evil" (Ganon in the Downfall Timeline coming again and again), the same Ganon from OoT, but in this timeline, instead goes for the Secret Stones instead of the Triforce since the Triforce was never uncovered in the past, and some events like the fojnding of Hyrule and making of the Master Sword happen at different times because of different reasons. It actually fixes a LOT of issues while creating pretty much none in return, which is a GODSEND in terms of Timeline theories !
The surname "Dragmire" was only used in English localizations and isn't considered official by Nintendo as original Japanese text is usually considered canon
Thank you!!
7:17 There's not evidence that the developers had the intention of a timeline from the beginning imo, especially during the first game. The downfall timeline being basically slapped into the rest of the timeline shows this imo. OoT, MM, WW, TP, and SS, all clearly are meant to tie in together, and imo _many_ other games are just shoved in to random places in the timeline wherever they can be justified.
They kinda did though, there was a chronological order of the first games before oot, with oot just being the prequel and explanation to ganon. It’s not perfect, but a timeline was planned. It’s just the timelines been super all over the place since oot
I've always just thought this was the kingdom of 10000 years ago given the fact we find the previous heroes' gear in Zonai chest that is acknowledged by the yiga in their journals, the fact that hero looked like a Zonai-Hylian mix when supposedly the Zonai are all but extinct by the time of Rauru and Sonia, the fact no male Gerudo has been born for 10000 years because of the King who became the Calamity as stated by Creating a Champion, and there's also the part where Ganondorf calls Sonia a Hyrulean woman not a Hylian woman but doesn't seem to include Rauru as a Hyrulean man despite saying he founded Hyrule.
Totk makes sense in the recycle bin. Nintendo should scrap it and pretend like it never existed.
I always thought Demon King Ganondorf resembled Demise. It's really cool that they did that
Having Zora and Rito concurrent at any time breaks WW. It gives credence to the idea of a timeline convergence.
There’s a theory that it’s all a loop since the developer said that the name would be too spoiling for the game, but people say it is the dragon symbol in the back, representing infinity, or a loop. Idk I lost my brain in 2018 trying to figure out botw in the lord and now I have to deal with totk
I personally do think the past events do take place between skyward and minish cap the fact that rito were not present until windwaker can be explained as how the gerudo were missing from several titles am I saying they got banished no, however for one reason or another they could have kept to themselves for a long period of time staying out of hylian affairs, possibly to guarantee that the secret stone does stay safe for a long period of time as as for the castle being destroyed meaning the seal would have been destroyed too? You'd be underestimating just how far and deep the seal was underground as for the two Ganondorfs he was easily able to conjure up an evil Zelda to try to trick people and that was before he got the secret stone what's not stopping him from just conjuring up an actual doppelganger of himself to cause destruction or even creating a vessel with the help of the twin rova witches to do so. After all he was able to conjure up something as disastrous as calamity ganon when the seal weakened there's no telling what else he could have done prior to the calamity ganon attacks
Alr new theory basically ganondorf never actually beats link in ocarina, he’s just reincarnated later on at the start of the defeat timeline as Totk ganondorf. What happened was kinda like in the adult timeline, hylia destroyed the world, this time by building a new world over the top of it and crushing most everything beneath (explains why you can find all of the old heros stuff in the depths) but the zonai are unaffected bc they still live in the sky so they have all this time to advance as a civilization, while the hylians and other land dwellers rebuild for several years before the zonai descend and found the new hyrule after the original one was destroyed by hylia. This whole process takes probably a thousand years or so. Then proceed the events of the totk memories. Botw in this theory takes place after adventure of link. It makes sense because none of the Ganons in the defeat timeline are actually ganondorf, and could all actually be different incarnations of his power just like calamity ganon just with varying ranges of power and dominion over hyrule
I'm inclined to believe theory 2, since that just seems like what the story is implying to me, I think if they're saying "this is the distant past, at the founding of hyrule", then that's just what it is, it also makes TotK's alot more impactful IMO, with TotK's Zelda having to wait through all the other Zelda games, (minus Skyward Sword) plus I think the continuity errors can be explained by artstyle changes, and the timeline just not mattering to the devs as much as telling their story properly, I mean there's a reason they made BotW so separate from the other games in the first place.
(Also I'm pretty think the sealed Ganondorf counts as dead, or just *is* dead and gets resurrected when the seal is broken, hence "you witness a king's revival")
Also koroks are evolution of kokiris that needed to adapt because most part of the forest was flooded in wind waker.
The final theory seems to be the most plausible to me. The fan base, including myself, love the story of Zelda and the mystery it invokes. But we all know Nintendo (Aonuma and Mayimoto) and how they design Zelda games. Gameplay and innovation comes first. Story second. So sadly I think that needs to be taken into account here. BOTW was a spiritual reboot for the series to evolve it with modern games. and TOTK is just BOTW at its full potential. I think they wanted to ensure these 2 games had ALL of the elements in previous Zelda games when building such a big world, such as the rito and all the other species. It needed a lot of depth and variety to make the game fun. Then once they start to solidify the gameplay's fun factor, they begin to mold a story around it. Im sure they do their best to preserve references and such, but I think inevitably, because BOTW was a spiritual reboot, the timeline has become not as relevant in relation to BOTW and TOTK and the previous games are lost in time.
You nailed it! After the. Massive success of BotW, they have nothing but confidence about their new type of Zelda, and rather than sticking to a super restrictive timeline they are starting fresh by disregarding everything prior as myths in-universe. It’s effectively a new continuity free from any previous mythos and events.
As for the theory that BOTW and TOTK's past and present take place so far in the future that hyrule has been forgotten/ lost from history the Faron region which has not been persistent throughout the games and Kakariko Village, the lost woods etc, would also not be able to retain their names. When Hyrule is the name of every thing spanning from the Gerudo desert to the Akkala Highlands. It also would not make sense that Zelda's name was unknown to Rauru if there was a Zelda before he established Hyrule according to him. Plus with endless reincarnations and the great Deku tree still being alive and the master sword and Hylian shield being intact there couldn't be any amount of time that could have erased Hyrule from history.
I personally believe it's a new Hyrule. I get the feeling that setting the new games tens of thousands of years in the future allows Nintendo to soft reboot the timeline without having to worry as much about how canon events can be impacted by slotting the game into a spot. Just include references to older games and it covers off the existence of older games, but any events that occur even in the 'past' can be easily chalked up to the 'past' relative to the current era, and not relative to earlier games.
Or, alternatively, literally everything they do is made up and everything we see and hear is myth and legend, which is why nothing seems to remain constant.
This is a different ganondorf to my knowledge.
Every 100 years a gerudo male is born and is crowned king of the gerudo.
The OOT Ganondorf that we saw across the N64 and Gamecube era was one ganondorf, but not every ganondorf
Another possibility is that ganondorf gains the power of time travel (like zelda) and decides to go back to a time where link does not and can not exist.
12:29 This is the main problem I have with Rauru's Hyrule not being the original Hyrule, the probability that he would just happen to choose the same exact name is effectively 0.
In a world where humans evolved to have long ears in order to hear the voices of Gods, randomly choosing the same name seems implausible to you?
Hyrule seems to keep better historical records than us. So it's likely not even random. Considering they have legible writing describing the events of well over 20,000 years ago. Do you think it's impossible for at least one Hylian to remember the name of their country, or impossible for them to have a book mentioning Hyrule?
The land is named Hyrule, and the Kingdom is named after the land. So if the previous kingdom fell, they'd still call the land Hyrule. Its in Historia page 77. Thats where Rauru would get the name from