TAMRON 17-70 f2.8 - Almost the Perfect lens for EVERYTHING
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- čas přidán 6. 09. 2024
- Tamron 17-70mm is an absolute beast of a lens with superb image quality, excellent focal range and a fixed F2.8 - to get all of that creamy footage so we present you another non-bullshit review, showing actual footage and giving our honest thoughts. However the big question is - will it replace our 18-105mm? Let's find out!
Gear we use for our videos:
Best Zoom lens - Tamron 17-70 2.8 - amzn.to/2OtPJQ2
Main workhorse - Sony A6500 - amzn.to/3dD8qe7
Best Portrait lens - Sigma 30mm 1.4 - amzn.to/39KjTFY
Best Wide Angle - Sigma 16mm 1.4 - amzn.to/2PVFKDo
Best ULTRA wide angle lens - Samyang 12mm 2.0 - amzn.to/3dHtuyD
Sony 85mm 1.8 - amzn.to/3upEtDn
Sony A6300 / A6500 Cage - amzn.to/3dBRyCU
Gimbal - Zhiyun Weebill-S - amzn.to/3uso4OM
For those who want to support us and our journey:
/ dreamduofilms
Music and Stock overlays we use for our videos, If you get a subscription through our link, you'll get 2 extra months for free!
Artlist: bit.ly/3oOZMf9
Artgrid: bit.ly/37JvuDs
a small tip: write Tamron 17-70mm in the title so that people could find it in their search results easily!
Yes. I came here because of the title.
I came here because of this, thanks
showed up cuz of this
It looks like they took your advice and it's the only reason I found it so thanks!
Thanks for that tip, this video is a great
Hands down, this is the best "IN PRACTICE" review of this lens! Imma be using it for clients work (cinematic videos) and travel vlogs (I don't need to be that cinematic, haha) and you covered all my questions! Thank you so, so much!
Thank you for the kind words, Yoana, we trully appreciate it 😊
Hey, did you end up using this lens for vlogs? I’m thinking of using this with the Sony a6400 but not sure if I’ll need a gimbal or if the VC will be sufficient. Thanks!
This is THE BEST review on this lens, period.
Also, congrats on hitting 10k! Well deserved!!
Sorry for the black screen at 1:03, we forgot to add the clip there 😄 but anyway, hope you guys enjoyed the video!
Love everything about this video. I had to subscribe at 1:04. From the music to the voice over to the visuals.
Omg man! Finally someone comparing to the 18-105! I think you could make a separate video for a comparisson, cause I was looking on youtube for "tamron 17-70 vs 18-105" and didn't find any hahahaha.
Subscribed!
CZcams should suggest this channel to everyone who’s into photography
Does anybody know if they have released a firmware update that fixes the VC?
The storytelling along with the real life use cases explaining pros & cons of this lens was so well done! Thank you for the review man, you just earned a sub 😊👍🏼
4:40 in which city it was shot?
Riga
What a beautiful review. i was really trying to convince myself to not save up for this Tamron due to the price tag, but y'all did such a wonderful job show casing its capabilities that I'm sold. Thanks for the content! Subscribed.
This is the best practical review of this lens. I am sold. Going to get it. That will be my first photo/video lens, must be universal for vlogging, indoor and culinary photos. I think this will be very good choice.
In 2023 would you recommend sony 18 105 or tamron 17 70 for vlogging, filming holidays etc. Prob using outside mostly. I see 18 105 used at good prices. What do you think. Thanks.
Yurrr...I was debating about if we should get this lens and was worried about the photo and video quality, but seeing the comparisons you guys did it's pretty easy to say that this lens is a neat grab.
Thanks for the video...you guys killed it!
*also congrats on passing 10K that's awesome!*
Just waiting for my lens to arrive. The results of the choreography were top notch 👌👏
Great video! Subbed. I just picked this up brand new on Amazon for $599 USD which is $200 off! It was a must buy at this price. The price has been fluctuating a lot from $699 and then one day it's $599, so I snatched it up immediately. It's sold and shipped direct from Amazon, so I trust I'll get something better than a third party storefront.
I can't wait to give this a try. 99% of reviews are very positive about this lens and it will fill a much needed gap in my collection between my Sigma 16mm f1.4 and my Tamron 70-300mm f4.5-6.3.
Thanks again for a great video with excellent footage and reviews.
Curious what your thoughts are now since this is a year old comment? Does the size of it deter you from taking it places?
@@parkasatI love it. It's my most used lens now and always on my camera. It's really light and the size is not an issue. The only thing I don't like is that it doesn't have a zoom lock. My next lens might be a 10mm for real estate. Overall, I'm happy with my lenses now with the Sigma 16mm f1.4 (a must have), Tamron 17-70 2.8, and Tamron 70-300 f5.6.
@@ckdesignlab That's great to hear! Interesting insight about the must have 16mm, I hadn't even looked at that at all. I'm interested in bringing the camera along on adventures for landscape stuff plus a little wildlife. That 16mm is the kind of lens perfect for landscapes, right? Probably looking at starting with the 17-70 Tamron and going from there.
@@parkasat the Sigma 16mm f1.4 can work really well for landscapes but it also works well for astrophotography. It's also a preferred lens for CZcams studio content creators. If you do any talking head videos, the quality and bokeh is awesome. This is a prime lens and still one of the best lenses for APSC cameras. It's heavy and big but built like a truck. I've dropped it several times and it still works great. Just make sure you always have a filter on your lens. 😂
Some incredible street photos there! The versatility is brilliant!
The Tamron looks pretty nice, but I think I'll stick with my 18-105, since even that was a bit of a financial stretch for me. Also, it remains to be seen whether Sony will put out any meaningful APS-C cameras soon, or they'll focus on full frame even more, in which case expensive APS-C lenses wouldn't make much sense any more.
Do you not know the a6600 exist?
If we zoom the lens from 17 to 70.. is the aperture change or stay at 2.8 ????
Was the vibration issue you showed fix with this lens?
The best review of this lens on CZcams right now. I am subscribing. You exactly did what I wanted to test. I love videography and I dont want those boring Photography comparisons. The video was on point and not a single minute wasted !!
Yesss!! Super stoked to hear that, that's exactly what we want to hear from you guys 😊 yep, you're not the only one who hates those kind of boring comparisons, so that's why we want to make it interesting by simply doing things our own way so we can be proud of the worl we do ourselves, peace out!
@@DreamDuoFilms Hey, have you tried the new Viltrox Trio for Sony APSC. It has 23mm 1.4 lens which 35mm in full frame. There is no other lens of 35mm in APSC system so cheap for 300 dollar. Can you review that lens or telll me ur experience with that if you have tried. Coz i m planning to buy it soon.
I really love this lens! I'm using it with the Sony A6300 and the results are amazing!
I am in the same "pit".
Have the 18-105 and see that the Tamron is a lot cheaper now, then when it was released.
Thinking to buy it, but the stabilization is indeed not as smooth as Sony's.
I love the constant zoom in button on the Sony.
And the sharpness is not that a big deal - you can still add "Superscale" in Davinci and make
a bit naturally sharper.
Only downside id the 1 stop poorer low-light performance. And the 1mm on the wide end.
@@WEHAVETHISDREAM yes the stabilization is nothing special on the Tamron. But for image quality and for the F2.8 for me these lenses are on 2 different planets 😅
Also on photography there is a huge difference.
@@ASVideo Thanks so much!
@@WEHAVETHISDREAM you are welcome 😁
I loved mine, right up until dust got into areas where I would have to pay to have it removed by a professional.
Oh no! That sounds terrible dude. Any idea of the environmental you were in when the dust got in ?
From 10K to 45K in 1 year, congratulations 🎉
Anyone know if the lens has had a firmware update for the VC jelly effect?
Bro this vs 18-50 sigma F2.8 ?
I’m definitely buying this lens if Tamron fixes the VC issue. I was about to buy the 18-105 but will wait for this lens. Even though this lens looks big, it can easily replace all my other lenses. I’m also considering switching to full frame, but with this Tamron lens I don’t think I would need to switch any time soon. Great video guys!
Would you mind letting me know what the VC issue is?
@@alternativemushroom the video explains at the 2:25 mark. Makes me not want to buy this
did Tamron fix this VC issue by now?
@@RocZi I hope someone who is using this lens answer your question. I want to know it too since I'm considering this lens as my only one lens
@@cleanaccount7147I just received the lens! Unfortunately, it still has an issue where it shakes every other moment. It's quite weird, and I'm currently trying to figure out if there's a way to update it or fix the problem. If not, I'll have to sell it. I hope this information helps.
Great vid! The 18-105mm stays on my camera 100% of the time for weddings. However, I would like better low light performance. The 17-70mm just hit my radar and I think a combination of that and the sigma 56mm might be what I need. Don't know if the 17-70mm would be to heavy for my ronin sc. It works perfectly with 18-105
Hey Michael! Did you ever test the 17-70 mm. with your ronin? I'm thinking about getting that combination.
Great review bruh😍 tamron made this lens for apsc body, so that may be the reason to use plastic to reduce the weight
18-135mm at $400, 18-105mm at $510 and tamron 17-70mm at $699 which one is best value for money for a6400?
Great video guys! thanks!!! A new subscriber!
This lens seems VERY far from parfocal. How bad is the focus hunting when zooming during video? You can see some of it at 5:15 and 5:24. Look how well the sony lens holds focus at 8:09 :(
Hey Guys ! Awesome video !! Thanks a lot. If not a secret, which settings did you use for macro videos - both indoors and outdoors ? Grateful in advance
The video portraits come out amazing.
Hi! Nice video. I have the a6600 and the Tamron 17-70. You use the Weebill S so far I can see. How do you stabilize fast when you zoom in or out? And second question: is there a
Great video, I watched this a few times already. Keep it up guys!
Was the warping from the VC issue ever fixed in a firmware update? Also, how does one do the update when this lens has no USB inputs? I’m new to this hobby, so I’m sorry if these are stupid questions. Any feedback or information would be very much appreciated.
Thanks for making this video, it literally answered all my questions about this lens. Also, I've gotta say the quality of this video is superb 👌
Thanks man, yeah it's a beast of a lens and if you're thinking of getting one, i would highly suggest ;)
@@DreamDuoFilms thanks for the advice! Been on the fence about replacing my 35mm and 18-105mm with this lens 🤤
@@NJJGuitar I would definitely recommend keeping the 35mm though, it's such a beast of a little fella :D
@@DreamDuoFilms therein lies my dilemma 😂, I'll only have enough money if I sell both lens but I know I'd miss the 35mm. I'll most probably not change my current setup till I have enough saved up to replace my 18-105 only while keeping my 35mm
@@NJJGuitar for sure! Don't need to rush, I just hope tamron will soon release a firmware update for the VC. Oh and soon we will have to give back this lens as well, it huuurtsss maan
You guys are awesome - great video, super helpful examples and beautiful cinematic footage. New sub!
Thank you so much for the awesome words, Colin! I'll be seeing you more in the comments 😄
Hi guys, great video! I've unfortunately also noticed the VC issue...and it's driving me nuts. If shooting completely static shot it's actually amazingly still, but once you try and camera movements, especially pans, it's horrible and like you said it's like the VC and ibis are fighting each other. Either way, it's not good for what I want to do with video and it's been driving me crazy cos I can't find anything online about it. It seems no one else has found this to be an issue except you and me! I wonder if it's a faulty lens 🤷♂️
Did you guys get any resolution on this issue? I'm thinking to sell mine because of it 😪
Completely agree! Anyone solved this VC issue? Very well described in the video. Really annoying. Faulty unit or same for everyone? Excellent review!
Yeah, definitely a dealbreaker. Does it still do it with no IBIS? I have an a6300, no IBIS, so if it's only happening with IBIS, that wouldn't be an issue for me.
@@huntstyle yes, I use a6400 w/o ibis and this lens still has this VC issue.
did tamron solve this VC issue by now?
@@RocZi Also curious haha.
Thanks so much for your review! Any updates on the VC issue? I'm almost sold for this one, having had only primes for my APS-C, I'm willing to buy a zoom for some time.
Still using this lens? Have there been firmware updates to stop its vc juddering?
You should have 1 milion subs... Great content !
Hi. Great video. My Tamron is on its way to me right now. 😊 I think your colors in the video are super cool. Deep black, great skin tones and beautiful colors. And yet it looks very cleen. I love it. Is that out of camera? Would you tell me the color settings you are filming with or is there a LUT that can be bought from you? Greetings Chris
Really couldn't find many video centered reviews of this lens and I'm positiv surprised. You even mentioned that it makes a video a bit warmer than Sony's lenses (I HATE those Sony lens' colours, but like how my manual lens makes my Sony look more warm) Thanks! I enjoyed you color grade too. Everything looked more like a retro movie yet with a modern touch.
You do know that you can change those "Sony colors" in camera, by fiddling a bit in the "white balance" department and saving the profiles ;-)
Did that. Happy about it. There are couple of articles online on how to do that. Problem solved in minutes.
P.S. The "greenish" thing also has to do with lenses and the coating the manufacturers are putting in.
You surely bought some reading glasses, from what I see in your profile picture, and was asked if you want anti-reflection coating?
Yeah, that "green" coating you see on them. I recently bought a new pair of glasses and the coating itself makes me see things "greener"
than they are - no BS. :))
I sometimes have to take them off, to see if I color-grade stuff correctly in DaVinci.
It is what it is...
@@WEHAVETHISDREAM thanks. This could have turned into a “You don’t like Sony colors, you are stupid” comments and I thank you for not going there. I’ve been blogging about and using Sony NEX cameras for videos since 2012 until they changed name to a5000 a6000 etc … infact my oldest still in use Sony NEX VG20 doesn’t have the normal menu system and colors/white balance can not be changed like on my newer Sony cameras but I still use that camera for filming videos for clients. Yes, the old manual lenses without coating look way warmer than the Sony lenses who in mixed light conditions produce strange colors. Everything you said was spot on. Thanks
@@tobiaslofi Nothing to mention! My pleasure. It is just that I see a lot of "Sony colors" hate - still to this day -, on most reviews.
And I am still learning or discovering new information about cameras, lenses, optics, physics (in general) from time to time...
And it "hit" me, after purchasing the new glasses I was writing about.
You add the different "anti-reflection" coatings on the lens + the coating on the sensor itself (yes, it also has one - that "greenish" tint on it) - which by the way: the Fujifilm sensors use a "browner" coating, perhaps that is also why they seem "warmer" and friendlier to the human skin tone.
Yeah, and anyways.
Thought of sharing that.
And hoping that this might help some new reader of these comments.
This guy here has some nice tips on changing the color "science" in Sony newer cameras:
www.eoshd.com/eoshd-pro-color-5/
It applies to all "new generation" cameras from Sony.
I can not find the article from another guy, but it was similar to EosHD's article.
Just "push" the tint to the purple area, a bit, to offset the colors, for a start, and you'll get new colors instantly. No more green tint.
Sure, you can also do that in post.
@@WEHAVETHISDREAM yes EosHD is great. Even though the name is outdated :) it should be a4K nowadays :)
And to anyone reading this: I have tested both Sony lenses and Tamron lenses on both a6100, zv-e10 and a7R and every single camera has slightly different colors. Also Sony lenses are a bit blue/green compared to the Tamron lenses. We have a livestream studio with all 3 cameras and they are not the same color and contrast wise by default and need to be matched to each other. I prefer the Tamron lenses on the crop-sensor cameras over Sony.
@@tobiaslofi Thank you! Wow! Nice comment and info! I was thinking to buy the 17-70 and sell my 18-105.
What actually brought me here, haha.
WHY do you like Tamron for APS-C Sony, over the Sony lenses?
Great review! Very helpful! Thanks!
any updates on the vibration compensation problem?
Thanks for the 18-105 compare!
dang....that stabilization issue is definitely a problem.
Yeah, we realllly hope Tamron will fix it ASAP, because then it will be legit the perfect lens for us
Is Tamron sharper than 18-105 at 70mm? 🧐 It would be great to see how they line up, because Tamron gets softer from 50-70mm right? And 18-105 is kinda softer in general, so maybe Tamron is still sharper at 70mm? 😬
I'm just about to buy the tamron 17-70mm but I already own the Sony 18-105mm for video. My only concern was the unexpected jitters that happen sometimes and I will be worried to mess up my shots while traveling. But it seemed to me that even with that problem you still prefer this lens vs the Sony 18-105mm? Could you say elaborate more on the jitters issue? Do you have to review every time or you notice right away when it happens?
I actually have noticed this issue on our unit. I have 2 other friends with this lens and they don't have any issues regarding VC
Nice review.. a comparison with this lens and Sony 16-55 f/2.8 would be awesome 👍
Arthur R does one.
This is the perfect review for this all-rounder lens.
Thank you so much, man!! Appreciate your kind words 😊
How is this compared to Tamron 28-75?
did I just hear a quack on @0:08? ;) lol I appreciate your review... not sure if I should sell my PZ 18-105...
Very very good real world review. Thanks!
Love your video. It's professional quality.
My mouth is so watering for this lens. Just have to figure out how to sneak it past the wife. Great coverage and examples of the wide range. Well put together video.
Amazing review dude💯 keep it up! I was wondering if you guys have tested out the weather sealing on this tamron 17-70? If yes, do you think it can handle light rain/snow?
Yep! I've used it in heavy snow, it handled it like a champ! I am not sure using it in heavy rain would be a great idea because it's not built well, but I think as long as you don't use it in the middle of a storm or drop it in puddles, you'll be fine 😄 thanks for the kind words, RJ! 😊
@@DreamDuoFilms awesome!! Got it, thank you so much🙏
Great review mate. What video colour profiles did you use for this video?
Did they resolved that jumping issue already?
Video quality was superb! +1 sub and like! Keep going!!
finally a video of this lens on a gimbal!!
How do you zoom in and out without keeping the gimbal balanced?
Hey! I wanted to know how good it works at night. I’m a live show photographer and I’m worried if the aperture will be ok for it.
did Tamron fixed the VC issue?
Great review guys
Your shots are exquisite.
Great video. I am experiencing the same issues with the VC. Really annoying! Also the image quality is actually below my expectations. I sometimes even have the feeling that the 18-105 looks cleaner/sharper. Overall the lens didn’t feel reliable to me in real life client shoots. Not as reliable as the 18-105 or the 35mm 1.8 prime. So I’m thinking about returning it. But the 16-55 2.8 is SO expensive...But, maybe for a very valid reason...? I have the idea that everybody on CZcams is just so excited about this lens bc everybody else is. Maybe it’s me, but I actually don’t find it that good. I’m really curious about all of you guys’ ideas on this, bc it’s just breaking my balls 😣!
What's your instagram? Mine is @mtruproductions
@@JonathanAkosah @merijn_yestra
you find sony 18-105mm sharp enough for your videography? and photography?
@@RocZi I am curious too.
I have the 18-105 and was thinkin of switching to this lens,
but the stabilization really puts me off.
Sure, the extra 1mm wide and 2.8 is tempting, but I "need" good and natural stabe.
I can add some "Superscale" sharpness in DaVinci anyways and make it bit sharper.
And Sony cameras are very good in low-light anyways.
Way better then Canon or Fuji. So 1 stop is being compensated, if you know what I mean.
Awesome video! Quick question, how loud is the autofocus motor on this lens during video?
Silent, legit dead silent
Thank you for the review! I'm considering getting this lens for shooting interviews in a documentary style with zoom functionality. However, I'm concerned about the lens stabilization issue. While this lens seems appealing due to that feature, I've also been looking at the Sigma 18-50mm F2.8 as an alternative. I'd appreciate your thoughts and any recommendations you may have.
Great Video mate😊 anyways can you mount this on Canon m50?
Do you if they fixed the vibration issue?
is there any flaw of using this lens on full frame mirrorless cam's like A7-siii?
Does it do good in full frame videos ?
Great review! I have the a6600 and a need a lens for all around video and commercial videos too. I dont know what to choose between this Tamron and the Sony 16-55mm. Is the Sony’s image quality that better as the Tamron’s ? If you have any advice... Thanks!
The Sony has the best Picture Quality of an apsc sony e mount zoom lens
Hey there, i know i'm a bit late to get attention on this video and on this matter...So, my big question is, i don't really care for the issues of the vibration compensation when handheld, but those micro jitters are also present when using the VC paired with the weebill S?
should i buy the sony 18-105 f4 or this one ?
why would you not use this on FF ? it will still be better then Sony 24-105 F4 - dont you think so, specifically for video ?
i can uset whit the sony a 7iii right
What camera did you use with this lens?
This is the 1st video I have seen from you guys. Really nice video clips. I just ordered this lens for my a6400. Im definitely going to keep an eye out for more of your videos. Solid work guys!
How is it? Thinking about this exact combo
@@AlexCruzHaha i love it. Some of my best photos and video used this lens. I rarely use anything else now.
@@rzrdaze damn, I’m in between this and the eos rp but this is such an attractive lens! Would you recommend the a6600 or a6400 with this lens? I’m mainly a youtuber and then I also do photography a little on the side!
@@AlexCruzHaha i like the 6400 but no ibis. So you gotta hold it steady. Great for photos but even the 6600 ibis isnt as stable as what you get on a gopro. Im thinking of getting a gimble.
@@rzrdaze so maybe the a6400 and use the savings for a gimbal?
Good video guys. Just subscribed 👍🏽👍🏽
Hi. have you used any nd filters for this video ?
Oh my! That was a great video!
just bought this, and have it paird with the sony 70-350mm, its awesome duo, now i just need to upgrade my a6000 to a6600 and i am all set. mabye the 200-600 for more wildlife later on :P
@@User-00876gfdf not that i have noticed
What ND filter do you use?
Thank you for this video
At a smaller focal length there’s a slight vignetting happening around the edges, is it edit or is it the lens?
Amazing review
Would you choose the tamron 17-70mm f2.8 over a sigma 16mm and 30mm 1f.4 combo?
Also, awesome work on the video!
i think you cant compare that.
What is the lens ahead? is it a filter?
5:04, is it okay to zoom in/ zoom out on a lens without rebalancing gimbal?
It depends on the motor strength of the gimbal.
You should avoid it but if you calibrated it with the lens halfway out most gimbals should cope with the wait shift. 🤙
Will this lens work on the sony a7s or a7siii?
Great Video! I would have one question: How does ist perform on a Gimbal? Do you have to re-calibrate every time U Change the focal lenght? I use the dji Ronin sc. Any experiences? Thanks in advance!
I usually just balance it on like 35mm (the middle point between 17-70mm basically), never had any issues and I think ronin sc will also handle it like a champ!
@@DreamDuoFilms thank u very much for the quick response...have to sell my sony 18-105 i guess...thanks!
does this work on full frame?
Hey, great video! I bought this lens and it stays on my camera almost all the time. I'm thinking about getting a gimbal for this lens and my ZV-E10. Did you had any balance issues on Weebill S?
Hey, do you think the VC is good enough to not need a gimbal to vlog with this? Thanks !
@@leeteivans2509 i assume you walk while vlogging then the lens VC would counter micro movements and jitters but won't give you gimbal like smoothnes. This lens can be combined either with Catalyst Browse sony software or electronic stabilisation, which crops footage but it gives close to iPhone like stabilisation in my opinion.
@@gracjankasprzyk328Hi. Would you mind sharing some of your experiences with this lens after another year? Particularly these infamous VC issues, but also practicality, quality etc.
I am using a Sony a6400 and recently bought TAMRON 17-70 mm f2.8 and I couldn't balance it on my Zhiyun Weebil S Gimbal. Can anyone help me out or has a video how to balance it pls share the link. Thank You!
In fact, he already answered same question in other comments from this video. You can load all comments in computer browser, then use "find word" function to search keywords "Gimbal, balance…" to see his answers. simply, he answered balance the len in around 35mm/middle focal length of this len. If there still having issue that probably the motor strength adjusted incorrectly.
9:05 full frame or APSC? I liked the Tamron framing in 17mm, but I want in APSC
This is an APSC lens! :) for full frame a good choice is the Tamron 28-75, which bot Reinis and I have been using for years now
@@DreamDuoFilms so for a vlog it looks good in apsc with 17mm.. I like it, I'm going to buy it! Thank you so much for the reply
Hi! I have the same lens and if I zoom at 70mm, set manual focus and fast zoom out, then while zooming out I loose focus. Do You have the same issue? Thanks!
Hi, if i'm not mistaken, we're using the same gimbal, zhiyun webill S. Did this lens balance well with the sony a6000s series or do you have any issue with it because of the weight or the change in length when zoomed?
And about the weird vibration, are you still having this issue?
Great review anyway!
No problems regarding balancing on the weebill s, but the vibration issue is, unfortunately, still there :(
@@DreamDuoFilms is the weird vibration also happen on gimbal or handheld only? Or can we turn off the VC on the lens manually?
Crane Plus worked fine, I had no glitchy VC issues.
@@keystonebrotherb only found 2 youtubers with this issue, and other works fine even handheld. Can this be a product defect from tamron?
I’d send this copy back and try again.