Speed Vs Weight: Which Arrow Set Up Is More DEADLY?
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- čas přidán 18. 05. 2022
- In today's video, we are pulling a snippet from a conversation the Cameron had with chad on the Deer Gear Podcast talking about arrow builds. Is a faster arrow more deadly? Or does a heavier arrow pack more killing power? Tune in to find out!
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People have been harvesting animals for years with less technology than we have in today's bows. Sometime it seems like we overthink and complicate thing. Bows get faster and I do not think the reaction time of animals got faster. We always THINK we need bigger, better, faster, heavier, shinier what ever it mite be. When we just need to hone are hunting and shooting skills. In my opinion!
100% correct. One thing to remember, the faster the velocity the more apparent errors, mistakes, and tuning issue become. I think that is why so many people want to go extremely heavy, drop below 270 fps and it seems to be an easy fix to some of those issues.
Agree 💯
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
People have been harvesting animals for thousands of years with arrows really with heavy arrows to be specific.
@@huntnwithhunter4047 turns out when you are shooting a stick bow... you need a heavy arrow. Slower speed, you need more weight. Don't need a heavy arrow with a compound to be affective. Sufficient for the game is recommended. But it's all personal preference.
Your math on the 270 vs 300 FPS being a whole second different is completely wrong. Like just think about an arrow taking 1 second to go ten yards. You can even throw an arrow that slow.
Sorry Jim! My brain to mouth filter should have caught that! That's a mute point in the video
@@chadsylvester8336 actually its not your arguing that time of flight is important and a lot of people agree with you but its actually not that important it takes a arrow doing 300fps .3 of a second to hit a 30 yd target it takes a an arrow doing 270fps .33 of a second that makes 0 difference that is also not 100% accurate because it doesn't take into account deceleration. What is important and the advantage of speed and you briefly touch on it is the effect if you get the yardage wrong shoot a target at 35 with your 30 pin with a bow doing 300fps and a bow doing 270 the difference in the error is huge. You briefly touch on it at the end of the video but it deserves more discussion an arrow leaves your bow doing 300fps it is not doing 300fps at 30yds. I tested this couple years ago using a labradar cant remember exact numbers but heavy arrows retain there velocity better. You are absolutely right though happy medium is the way to go personally I focus on a speed I want no slower than 270 no faster than 290. Currently on the heavier side and clocking in at 275. Considering building a bit lighter arrow just so I an practice further before I max out my sight.
I was thinking the same thing. I believe what he was trying to say is that if you look at speed in yards per second , and your set-up shoots 100 yards per second (300fps), then it’s 1/10 of a second for every 10 yards. But that doesn’t take into account the speed degradation over distance.
@@burtonguy81 " *if you get the yardage wrong* "
That point is also extremely overstated by the speed crowd. They don't seem to know, that *all arrows* drop at *the same rate* , so it's all about time-to-target.
In other words, if you get 10% closer, so the slow arrow gets there at the exact same time as the fast arrow, *both arrows* will drop the *exact* same amount.
Tools for the job. If you encounter a lot of large hogs, especially boars, then you need an extremely heavy arrow with a cut on contact fixed head. You have to sacrifice in other areas to get that. Too many people take what the RF says on a wild ride. That is on them, not the Rach Fairy. Just like with guns you wouldn't take a 45/70 with a 400 grain bullets to hunt where your shots will be over 200 yds nor would you take a 300 mag in the woods where you can see less than 100. The happy medium would be a .280 or 30-06. With each their are sacrifices and benefits. Think about it like this: How much has the Ranch Fairy forced archers to learn? He is a net benefit to the industry. You two hosting the show know more now than you ever would have if the fairy hadn't challenged the status quo.
Best conversation about it I’ve heard. Have been in that same mind and path for the last several years!
My experience: A heavy arrow, going about 275-285fps, with a fixed blade head, is by far the best option. I've blown through both shoulders many times, and even high-shoulder shot a couple, and still got complete pass-throughs.
That's awesome that works for you. I'm shooting 315fps with a lighter arrow with a moderate sized mechanical and it bows through everything. I broke both front shoulders on a mature buck at close to 30 yards with it. I used to shoot heavier arrows at slower speeds and I wouldn't go back.
I guess if I shot 100 pound bow I could do this lol.
@@josephbucci484 Mine is 72lbs.
“The goal…Is two holes”.
Yes!!!
Always!!!
The difference between 300fps and 270fps is .1 of a second not 1 whole second. @ 100yds the arrow is .1 slower. .05 fps @ 50yds. There is still movement from animals in .1 of a second but not enough to miss vitals with a well placed shot, plus we’re probably under 50yds when taking animals. Good discussion though and good reviews on equipment. Thanks for creating content to help better all us hunters👍🏽
The 300 fps is calculated at the release of the arrow. It's not going 300 fps at the one hundred yard mark. A bow shooting 323 fps is traveling at 264 fps at the 100 yard mark. That's quite a difference.
I’m glad you caught this too 😂
I thought the exact same thing when they talked about it. Immediately my mind said "if a bow shoots an arrow at 300 feet per second, how is 30 feet an entire second?!"
That said, a light arrow will make your bow louder which can absolutely make a deer jump the string and cause you to miss. Im a trad guy, so 175fps with a heavy arrow at 10 yards is quiet enough for me to shoot a second arrow without the animal knowing I'm there. Its funny for me to see these conversations about slow 270fps arrows. Haha
@@brokenarrow6491speed erosion greatly depends on arrow weight. Lighter arrows bleed speed at a greater rate than heavy arrows, so the heavier arrows can be moving faster than the lighter arrows at impact depending on the arrow weight, speed, distance and tune. Besides all of that, most bowhunters aren't shooting at prey 100yds away.
Back in the late 80’s early 90’s we were killing deer shooting 245 fps with a 500 grain arrow the bow was so quiet deer never knew what hit them
60lb BowTech solution, 29 inch draw, 375 gr total weight, 4 blade G5 gets full pass through on southeastern whitetails...
Chad said it sharp broadhead well placed shot, my general rule of thumb 25-28 in draw 70 lb 390-420 28-30 draw 70lb 425-480 and 30+ 440-510 is general arrow weights that should be pretty much sweet spots in my experiences. I hunt with a 29 draw 68 lb bow shooting a 442 grain arrow. My elk build is 72 lb 29 draw 478 grain. Sharp durable broadheads are a key. This whole 2+ in cut getting 54-8 in penetration is a joke and half the outdoor channel pushes is. I’m sorry I just don’t see a need for that 1-1/2 expandable is plenty and a bit more stout. I’m a fixed guy personally. Shoot straight guys and god bless. Thanks for the video you guys rock
What would you say for a 27” 55-60 lbs limb? Its a Hoyt axius shoots around 300fps but im just learning to build my own arrows im new to this part of it I always just bought pre made gold tips
Big FACTS💯
Like most things in life, somewhere in the middle is usually the best place to be. Interesting point Chad brought up about speaking in terms of yardage instead of FPS. Very important. The comment was made that speed is important to an extent due to the amount of time it takes to reach the animal and the arrow loses velocity at further distances..... but heavier arrows retain more of the velocity at those longer distances too so there is that point which wasn't really addressed. I was shooting 532gr. last year and I'm likely dropping 50-75gr. this year to flatten my trajectory but I will never go superlight. Its loud, its rough on your bow and equipment, and you never can control what that animal is going to do..... having the assurance of hard hitting momentum with a medium to medium heavy weight arrow is that insurance for what the animal may do that none of us have much control over whatsoever.
" *speed is important to an extent due to the amount of time* "
That's the one and only drawback. People don't seem to understand, that *all arrows* drop at the *exact* same rate. So if you get 10% slower, you need to get 10% closer for the *exact same* drop.
" *dropping 50-75gr* "
You are dropping 10% in weight to "flatten the trajectory"? You will likely gain only about 5% in speed, that will extend your distance for *the exact same* drop by, you guessed it, 5%...
That's a 2.5 yards at 50. You bought yourself 1.25 yards at 25.
At those more extended ranges, you can *never* guarantee where you hit. Too much time for the animal to move. Even with a crossbow.
BTW - 650 is the heavy bone threshold. That means, that with a good setup you will blow through a humeral joint every time. Scapula is nothing. A full pass through a spine. Even at an angle.
Respectfully, bows get more efficient the heavier you go. The arrow absorbs more energy, eliminating the energy bleed off through vibration and noise. A 2000 grain arrow is always more efficient than a 350 grain arrow when you are talking about bow energy.
Another thing about Pin Gaps. If you misjudge yardage, chances are the misjudgment is going to be under 5 yards. Anymore than 5 yards or so of misjudgment is going to more than likely either mean a complete miss or a miss outside of the vital zone and a non-lethal hit regardless of arrow setup. A heavier arrow slows down much slower than a fast arrow. So the difference between a 50 yard shot that was really 54 yards isn’t going to be nearly what everyone thinks it is. If a heavy setup slows down 10-14 fps at 60 while a light setup slows down around 30 fps, the light setup is going to miss lower when you misjudge yardage because the arrow slows down quicker and loses more speed compared to the intended yardage.
A 2000 grain arrow is not more efficient then a 350 grain arrow lol. And your speed loss analogy doesn't work either. Even if the lighter arrow did slow down 30 fps at 60 yards it's starting out a lot faster so it's still ahead of the heavier arrow. I just watched a test done at less than half that distance and the 200 grain heavier arrow dropped 8 inches lower so it would be over double that at 60 yards. So if you misjudged it at 60 yards using your numbers you wouldn't touch the deer. Also the 200 grain heavier arrow only got 3% more penetration. The lighter arrow was so much faster it almost made up the difference in energy.
@@brokenarrow6491 if you watch Ranch Fairy, he backs up the speed loss of light vs heavy arrows with a lab radar. While you can disagree heavy arrows are neccessary or the best choice, the mathematical calculations are the same. A lighter arrow loses speed much faster than a heavy arrow at the same distances.
So when you graph this, a lighter arrow will have a much more pronounced drop on the graph of speed while the heavy arrow will have a more even sloping drop off. So one of his tests showed a 388 grain arrow loss 35 fps at 60 yards while a 718 grain arrow only lost 14 fps. Sure, the heavy arrow went from 215-201 while the light arrow went from 282-247, the lighter arrow still lost the speed.
When it comes to penetration tests, there really isn’t a reliable test medium except actual animals. Gel does great with bullets but it resists arrows much more and limits their penetration unrealistically. What I would challenge you is this. Watch a whole bunch of hunting videos of people using heavy, slow, and fixed blade setups and you will undoubtedly see much higher and consistent penetration than light, fast, mechanicals.
My opinion on the matter of heavy vs light is pretty simple. Heavier is always better but not always neccessary. A 2000 grain arrow will out penetrate a 400 grain arrow everytime. But with some game a 400 grain arrow is enough. To put it in firearm analogy, you can kill a deer with a 5.56 or .223. Not disputed. But, will the terminal ballistics be the same as a .270, 300 win Mag, or even a 30-06? Nope. Those are harder hitting, deeper penetrating projectiles, but that doesn’t mean because they are better/more efficient they are a necessity.
I shoot a 718 grain arrow because I don’t want anything stopping my arrow under any circumstance. I had bad performance with lighter setups and this is what works for me. If light arrows work for you, go for it. Best of luck to ya.
But the science still says momentum is a better calculator for archery terminal performance thank just kinetic energy.
@@brokenarrow6491 and I’m sure your probably talking elk shape’s video. I shot a target with my 718 grainer at 60 and then shot with my sight tape at 60 but the target was 64. The arrow missed 8” low. Only 8” of drop for a 4 yard misjudge.
I love shooting targets past 100 yards, but in a hunting situation it’s hard to stay ethical past 60. Too much time, wind, and animal movement can drastically effect the impact location. And with my 718 grain arrow setup on my Bowtech rpm 360 I can reach 92 on my sight. But hunting i’m restricting to 60.
@@officerfoxtrot3633 I think the vector you 2 aren't seeing is gravity, yes a heavy arrow will be affected less by air pressure , wind, vibration, but it's going slower which means there's more time for gravity to act on it.
Regardless the longer it flying the lower gravity can pull it.
The best counter to gravity is speed , because even though there's more trouble to be had , gravity has less time to affect it.
Good points though :)
I believe broadhead choices are more important than weight. The broadhead is the first thing that touches the animal. Most people will get a broadhead and never even sharpen the blades. Take a dull knife and cut a tomato. Take that same knife and sharpen it before cutting that tomato again. The dull knife will push its way through while the sharp knife will slice through. I personally prefer fixed blades over Mechanical broadheads. I also prefer a smaller cut size. Less force is needed to slice through the animal. The most important thing is patience and shot placement. That's easier to say than to do when it's the heat of the moment. I've had what seemed to be perfect shot placement with Mechanical and would still watch that animal run off with my arrow sticking out. Two holes are always better than one. Two unclog holes are better than two holes with a arrow in the middle of them. 450g max with a highly sharpened fixed blade broadhead is good for any game animal in North America. Slice your way through that animal and a lot of times, they don't even know they're hit. They'll jump, look back, and will slowly walk off before expiring. It's a lot easier tracking a animal that walks off versus one doing a death run.
Here’s something else i was thinking about. I think guys chasing weight…..are chasing something that doesn’t exist ( at least to the degree they think) as far as momentum, you’re talking about how hard is it to stop weight A compared to stopping weight B. Is it significant enough to justify the difference in drop per yard( speed). Ok, think about weight and momentum…. Is 1.25 ounces going to hit significantly harder than 1 ounce? We’re talking about 1/4 ounce!!!! OUNCE!!!! I believe the more important factor is accuracy. There is a way big difference in drop of the arrow in a given distance then there is difference in penetration. Give me accuracy , good flying arrow, and good broadhead. Ive never hunted with anything over 460 grains . I believe not only is it not necessary, but 90% of hunter’s that do, aren’t qualified to shoot that arrow because it is so much more critical to get yardage correct. You guess couple yards off and you have a long chase for rhat animal or you never recover it. Im shooting a 360 grain set up right now. If i mis guess by 5 yards im still well in the lungs. You should never plan for a bad shot. EVER! Anyway, thats my thoughts on speed versus weight. Go for speed. Benefits are better
Best discussion yet. It is all about the individual bow and shooters set up. There will be an arrow weight that is perfect for each set up you just have to find it. It is up to the individual what they want. I drive a diesel pick up truck and wont ever own a sports car.
Thanks for watching David!
100% agree with the happy medium. I've found, make the arrow around the distances you are going to shoot and the arc you want. I started with a mid 400 grain arrow with an expandable. hit a shoulder with 0 penetration. felt terrible, that deer would be in pain the rest of its life. then went to a 550 grain arrow and it wasn't forgiving enough for my skills. 500 grain with a fixed seems to be the sweet spot for me and my bow.
Thanks for watching Brett. Happy Hunting!!!
Who has proof that a light arrow doesn’t penetrate?
I agree with the happy medium statement. Also perfect arrow flight is paramount for penetration. A really heavy arrow is not going to penetrate as well if it is not flying straight and neither will a lighter one.
100%
If you’re not tuning your arrows , then you really shouldn’t be hunting.
@@tonyviers-de9qi Lots of deer were killed before this idea of arrow tuning showed up. Most guys can't shoot good enough to tell the difference between tuned arrows and factory standard.
@@miltonreeths522 Throw on a lighted nock and shoot something that isn't tuned right, you can literally watch it fly funny.
I agree shoot what works for you I shoot a 430 grain arrow around 285 ft ps good sharp broadheads in I been blessed to have pass threw on most of the Deer I've killed keep up the good work great videos
Thanks Jerry. Congrats on your success and happy hunting!
My perfect setup is right in the middle!!
26,25” Rip Tko’s with 75gr Half out, 125 gr point, AAE max Stealth vanes and Nocturnal lighted nock for a total of 485 gr. Shooting 284 fps @ 70# and 28,5” dl
Nice!
I got on the heavy arrow train and found out for my personal set up($1000 Mathew’s) after 550g I’m sacrificing to much speed. Arrow still hits hard. So I dropped down 50g and I’m sitting around 490g and I believe that is my bows sweet spot.
With my $300 bear bow can’t handle the 550g arrow. Dropped to a 450g arrow and I had it deflected of the back of the shoulder through the rib cage single lung liver and went almost through the ball joint of the femur on a 41/2 ND whitetail.
It’s personally your opinion of your own setup. Broadhead sharpness is the ultimate factor. The other factors is learning to shoot your bow properly, and all ways tinkering.
Constantly tinkering is key!!
Yeah for sure. Tuning and making sure your arrow is flying straight is a must.
I noticed (33 9/16 DL) that arrow speeds (currently almost all my arrows: indoor, 3D, hunting: are between 232-2410 also create louder wind resistance noises. My arrow setups are SLoooow AND silenT!! I have seen where arrows for those in the 28-31” range where speed is better. I believe that once an archer is above those metrics, the physics of arrow flight inverts on itself.
I'm at a 29.5 draw, 80lb, 450gr total arrow weight, 306fps I feel like that is almost perfect. It's flat, still hit plenty hard, it's accurate and quiet.
In 1995, I shot a 460 arrow at 73 lb draw weight with 31.5 inch draw. Bow was a PSE Inferno Maxis. Archery shot had to make custom string 1/2 inch longer than factory string, and longer than average nocking loop to get me to my 32 inch draw. Functional draw length as far as power stroke is concerned was 31.5 inches.
Arrow was 29.25 inch long Easton ACC in the stiffest spine offered (300), and broadhead was 100 grain Muzzy 3 blade. I used standard Easton aluminum inserts that came with he arrows. Fletching was 3 vanes, 4 or 5 inches long with 2 degree offset.
Momentum was .543 slug momentum and I shot those arrows through 5 deer, 5 wild hogs 80 -150 pounds,, and a turkey. Plenty of speed, penetration, velocity, and flat trajectory.
Penetration was not an issue, but could have been had I been hunting with 370 grain arrows.
I'm surprised you guys haven't mentioned broadheads in this big debate. If you're shooting a 2 inch mechanical with 370 grain arrow your not going to get much penetration. I just think its definitely part of the conversation.
It's not about getting to the meatbox faster, it's about what it does to the animals when it arrives. Arrow flight is more important
I like to use 3 different arrow setups (actually 4), which is exactly how many rifle calibers I use for certain situations. I have a 580gr, 505gr and 450gr. If I'm in a hunting situation where I know I'm ranging animals within 40 yds (elk, moose) in heavy timber with a single bevel heavy BH, I will use the 580's which are also day six brand and extremely durable. If I'm stretching out to 60yds+ the 505's are my sweet spot of speed/energy/trajectory. If I'm shooting TAC or some event I'll use the 450's. Of course all of this is dependent upon your bow, comfort etc.
There seems to be a lot of discussion on preferences rather then committing on what is better, and the end result is simple as always it will be your preference no matter what, it will come down to the weather, wind direction and some other factors. The choices you make will determine what is better,,,,for You,,,
Thanks guys.
From 300 fps to 270 fps requires a full second to go 10 yards? You’re apparently not a mathematician.
LOL....Sorry Paul! Some one should have caught that before we put this out..including the filter between my brain and mouth!
I've always shot 50lb with the lightest arrows I can afford. I like a flat trajectory, bad at judging distance. Lol
640gr at 255fps and a single bevels Works great and shatters ribs and shoulders. He jumped a little but it did not matter. Broke shoulder quartering to and still passed through
Exactly. I’m looking at going at least 700 grains TAW this year with either a Tuffheads 200 grain or 300 grain Single Bevel
I'm at 400 grains. You dont need much to penetrate a whitetail. Bigger game is a different story
I believe the number is 25 ftlb of KE and .41 slug fps for whitetails. A lot of ways to get there!
So true. I shot a buck with a 30 lb recurve when I was young and the arrow went through him sticking out the other side at just over 20 yards. I'm at 375 grains now with a fast bow and it's a beast on whitetails.
Love your guys content. But 300 fps vs 270 fps does not equate to 1 full second behind the other. It's actually a tenth of a second. 270 is 90 percent of 300 thus only losing a tenth not a full second
Yeah....I apologize. Bad math, my brain to mouth filter should have caught that!
I was going to say the same thing. Using a simple unit conversion I found 300 fps = 100 yds/s (rough stand in for yards/s) and 270 fps = 90 m/s. So a 10 y/s difference from the 30 fps slower which is what he calculated, but despite that difference both arrows are still going really fast and will cover 40 yards in 1/2 second or less. At the end of the day, both arrows are going to cover 10 yards in about 1/10 of a second with only 1/100 of a second difference between the two (300=0.10s/10yds and 270=0.11s/10yd), so really pretty negligible difference in time to target at those speeds. Easy mistake to make when doing off the cuff math mid sentence in a conversation, especially with rates of speed and the difference between them. Always gotta take a minute to wrap my head around what the math is actually telling me.
I like a flat trajectory because i find it more accurate. But when you need an arc to clear an obstruction in front of the kill, heavy is the only way. It depends on the situation
I agree
I can tell you for sure in archery for everyone saying do this there are three others saying don’t do this ever. lol
People have been killing game on this continent since people got here with way cruder equipment than there is today, you don’t need a 3k bow to hunt deer just practice the biggest thing you can do is learn efficient shot placement.
🎯🎯Hi Cameron & Chad...the liter the arrow at close range when you hit a shoulder bone...its not going to penetrate very well...on the other hand a heavier arrow will pound thru because of the weight behind the arrow....IMO speed is less important because practicing shooting behind the house and shooting while hunting🤔 is totally different🦌🦌🦌
to your point.. pounding foam is easy. Shooting through a reacting animal is difficult!!!
@@chadsylvester8336 the variables out while hunting can change a great shot to a marginal one in an instant....I believe you can have two main arrow selections for the season that will serve close range and long range pursuits...just don't believe one arrow set-up is going to your panacea for the season
That's just not true. I broke both shoulder bones on a mature buck at almost 30 yards with lighter arrows. My setup blows through whitetails without any problems braking ribs and shoulders at 315 fps.
I shoot a 428 grain setup with a about a 15-17% foc. Been a while since I figure it in all honesty. But it hits and hits hard. But my keys are small diameter arrow for less drag and wind issues. Speed for getting to the target to reduce their reaction times for target impact movement. And the fox is the big driving force in penetration. People seem to forget foc can help penetration as much as pure weight. There is absolutely no reason to ever go beyond 470ish weight. That would be like adding a 125 broad head instead of a 100 and a 80 grain outsert instead of like a 45-50 grain one. That’s more than enough to shoot anything across North America. But fixed blades definitely are better for that impact than mechanicals.
He said at 300fps it’s gonna take 1 sec to cover 10yrs… stupid math says no. During 1 sec a object that travels at 300fps travels 100yrds. Yes yes yes I know the arrow slows down so I’ll be cool with that and say 70yrds just to be nice. My point is the amount of time between 230fps and 300fps is milliseconds. Did this test with my buddy we shot tons of arrows at the same time until we were releasing almost exactly the same time. Arrows impacted so close to the same time we couldn’t really tell. Same arrow setups him at 70lbs and me at 60lbs. Focus should be on WHAT DOES IT TAKE TO PASS THRU whatever animal you are shooting IF you hit a major bone.
If someone can help me out.. I’m at a 27.5 inch draw and due to my left shoulder I’m at only 65 pounds, I can push it up to 70 but not for multiple shots(10+), my current arrow setup is at 370 grains going 275 fps. My issue with inconsistent groups with the practice broadheads I’m using and I’m hearing all kinds of different shit when all I want is the clean pass through with still keeping comfortable speed. My old setup was around 495 grains at 240 fps but only at 60 pounds. But those arrows were even less reliable. Yes the bow is properly tuned only thing I have tried yet was nock tuning and bare shaft tuning. Thank you for any advice
Could be under spined on arrows and getting to much flex and carry. Try a stiffer spine. They tend to fly better. Imo you can’t really be overspined but can be underspined
I shoot a Mathews vxr 31” draw 75 pounds and shoot victory extreme velocity arrows. Had a complete pass through on a doe at 55 yards last year. Bow is shooting 325 fps
I'm a 27 inch draw 73lbs 78 prcent let off and I have 2 arrows one comes in at 490 going 279fps and a 510 going 274 fps both are victory vap ss elites 300 spine running 125 grn broad heads for a handful of years ran kudu heads loved them and that arrow setup kille 4 elknwith them then switched to iron will heads and got 2 elk last year with the single bevel with a bleeder in my opinion is the best and of those 6 elk 5 I had complete pass throughs and shots ranging from 42 yards to 96 yards and the furthest one running was 53 yards the 510 grn arrow is my whitetail arrow same arrow setup and broad head but has a heavy insert complete pass through on all of them furthest shot 51 yards... best advice mess around with your arrow weights and find what's best for you and use a fixed blade head a good quality head tuned right will get you far don't cheap out on broad heads you get what you pay for and the last thing you want is a wounded animal that doesn't get recover and practice lots and practice at further distances then your max hunting distance will be and practice with both feild points and your broad heads before season.... now I know some people are gonna say shooting elk or any animal at 100 yards is unethical I practice with broad heads out to 130 all the time and they are consistent 5 inch or tighter at 130yrds so don't go hating ot is ethical if you practice and can do it consistently and that bull at 96 I shot only ran 37 yards and was piled up smoked him in the heart and a clean pass through arrow on the ground on the other side the only bull I didn't get a complete pass through on was at 56 yards and steep quartering shot and it hit rib bones and went through the opposing front shoulder and was sticking 8 to 10 inches out the side of the shoulder fletching ls buried in the lungs
The most deadly is the one you can most consistently put in the right spot . Not one time . Not one distance . Every single time at changing distances and circumstances
when they are saying things like "700 grain arrow" or "380 grain arrow", do they mean the complete weight of the arrow with the tip on there also? I shoot 70lbs with 31 inch draw on arrows that are 31 inches that say 10.2gpi but have a 100 grain tip on there. Does the gpi on my arrows include the tip weight as well? Because this would mean it's a total weight of 316.2 grains which doesn't make much sense. If I added the tip weight it would make the overall arrow 416.2 which sounds more correct in my eyes. But then I see posts saying 600 grain arrow for deer, but where do I find a 20gpi arrow if it's just the shaft? I'm confused by all this.
I shoot a PSE Full Throttle at 29 70 380 gr finished arrow with a NAP KillZone & have no problems with penatration
My favorite arrow set up is 420 . I'll always take an arrow on the faster side vs a arrow that's 500 plus grains . I've very lucky I can achieve faster fps over most I'm a 31-31.5 and always shoot 70lbs and 80 is cam find arrow with a stiff enough spine that's not over 9.0 gpi . Only 1 time I've never had a blow through with a 420ish grain arrow with a expandable. Joel Maxfield has the best experience with a lighter arrow ve heavy arrow there is go look him up . He's soon a goldtip airstrike from 390 to 600 grains on gel basically has little difference
I shoot a 423g arrow at 296fps... Is this too light? Have a 30.5" draw and am shooting 70lbs draw weight. I used an online calculator for kinetic energy and those numbers gets me to 82.28 foot-pounds. I feel like that is plenty for deer/elk. Thoughts?
I think that answer is a personal opinion but i would say try to look at in it terms of momentum. Momentum has direction, KE does not.
@@wvbowhunter1 not to mention that his numbers are at launch, not impact. The lighter arrows slow down more. Therefore they have less available energy and momentum at impact than a heavier one.
That's plenty. I shoot the same poundage and KE as you and it goes through whitetails with ease and buries hard in the ground after a pass through.
I try to get a pretty fast bow because then you can use a heavier arrow and raise momentum but your kinetic energy is also high too. It’s the best of both worlds.
Lots of benefit there if the bow works for you!!!
Where do u find a 90% let off bow??
PSE carbon levitates have the adjustment for 80, 85, or 90
Niether are as relevant as a quiet bow, and most quiet bows use a fairly heavy arrow! You can go as fast or as heavy as you want as long as your bow is quiet! Its really that simple in my mind!
What he said ☝️
Each bow will have different sounds but, every bow will get quieter the heavier the arrow. More energy is transferred to the arrow as mass increases.
An arrow head hitting directly with an object is going to impart the same amount of energy into that object whether its heavy, flying slower or lighter, flying faster. Considering the bow is putting similar energy into each different arrow and omitting drag differences between the heavy and light arrow. An arrow with more momentum is going to maintain its course better then the lighter fast arrow if it has an external force from lets say a branch that it brushes into. A lighter faster arrow is going to drop less. It's just physics. The penetration from a direct hit should be similar unless there is grazing off some thick bone. Head on into that bone though you will see basically the same results. Because the energy is what matters.
How do I get myMMT Arrows to fly in my bow?
Hey Andy. Give us a call, I’d be happy to talk you through what’s going on. Ask for Cameron
These days it has become beyond annoying on the chat platforms (pick one) where there are plenty of people who will belittle and criticize anyone who does not use what they use. Arrow weights, FPS, FOC, vanes, bow, etc. And these days it's all about speed, speed , speed. Right!! You can't be relevant if you don't have the latest "flagship bow" every year. Can you kill a deer with a 375gn arrow? YEP! Or a 400gn arrow, YEP! 500gn? YEP! I've done all those. It's as you guys said, it's personal preference based on your own set up. Plain and simple. I've been bow hunting for 18 years, I bought a new XT in 2006 and still hunt with it today. 74#, 30" draw, slinging a 505gn arrow at 266 FPS. Absolutely devastating. Perfect for "my" set up.
It's not just these days that it's all about speed. We were installing overdraws and shooting light arrows back in the early '90s.
You seem to have turn out fine🤣🤣🤣…. Maybe more dads should say that now a days🤣🤣🤣
Depends who you ask....LOL
Regardless of what you shoot shot placement is #1 at any distance. Fix to pin gap Ezv sight. Tho I dont see why pin gap is something anyone care about.
We've always wondered about the EZV sight! We'll have to grab one this summer and play with it
People get so worked up over this topic. Either they get mad because someone's math is wrong or they say "Well I've had 4 pass throughs with this weight so it's the right weight" type of story.
Chads wrong it’s not an entire second to go ten yards. The 300 FPS arrow will be 30 feet in front of the 270fps arrow in the entire duration of one second. The 270fps arrow without factoring in drag and velocity lose will actually take .11 seconds to travel 30 feet aka ten yards. So around 1/10 of a second. Not an entire second. So a better way to look at it is. If you shoot at a deer 30 yards out. The 300 FPS arrow will arrive 3 hundredths of a second faster then the 270FPS arrow. 270fps covers 30 yards in 33/100ths of a second and 300 FPS covers it in 30/100ths
At 10 yards, you have .1 and .11 seconds.
At 30 yards, you have .3 and .33 seconds.
The difference is literally three hundredths of a second, not tenths of a second.
At 100 yards it's a tenth of a second.
@@YoureSoVane at 10 yards it’s 11 hundredths of a second. I simplified that and removed the 1/100th of a second. 10 goes in to 100 how many times ? 10 ? So .10 would be one tenth of a second 1/10. So simplified 33 hundredths. .30. 10 goes into 30 how many times ? 3 so you’d have 3 tenths of a second.
@@daltonbbf756 At 30 yards, the 300 fps arrow will arrive in .3 seconds. At the same distance, the 270 fps arrow will arrive in about .33 seconds, not .6 as you said in the last sentence of the original post.
Just keep it simple, since we're already ignoring drag. Original time multiplied by 1.1 and we're good to go.
Guys who follow this channel often drink the Firenock Kool aid about fast arrows, so I'm trying to be extra thorough with everything to back it up.
@@YoureSoVane ah I was talking about total time of arrow flight for the 270fps arrow being 33/100 of a second. You are correct the 300 FPS flight time is 30/100 so arriving .03 hundredths of a second faster. I miss understood you thinking you meant .30 was only 3/100ths of a second. I did misstate in my first comment it should be .03. Not much considering a human blinks between .01 and .04
Sorry fellas...not sure what I was thinking...obviously some bad math and a mute point!
If you are only shooting limited distances - say to 40 yds - then mass is king. If you're out west shooting at 60-70 yards then you might need to dial back the mass to allow for more accurate arrows at distance. Or have a pin for every 5 yard increment beyond 40 yards!!!
Most archers miss the mass aspect of arrows and penetration. Best penetration comes when the mass is spread out over the entire length of the arrow and with tip balances weight forward.
I hope your buddies give you a hard time for your math skills. 😆
not true, what math are you using? 🤣
You said there are benefits to each . What are the specific benefits of each
The end benefit. Not it’s faster
70# 30In draw shooting 489 grains 14.5 FOC
Money for me
I shoot a fast bow with a heavy arrow! 😂
The faster arrows make more noise animals can hear them coming. Quiet broadheads and vains will help. Broadhead design and arrow dia. will determine penetration. No substitute for good shooting.
To me those factors matter more with bullets The speed versus how hard the bullet hits Those factors aren’t as important in speeds as slow as an arrow I think I can get a lot of speed to penetrate well If it doesn’t it’s probably hit the shoulder on the other side I’ve seen some really fast bows blow through the chest shot out the other side and I’ve also seen fast bows that didn’t penetrate well at all for some reason The theory of bullets is the heavier the bullet the harder it hits which is true it’s also slower
Not 1 sec difference in 10 yards, 270 fps in 10 yards is .11 sec and 300 fps is .1 sec a difference of .01 seconds
What your saying is in one second the faster bow travels 10 more yards, but in 1 second the shots been done with for a long time, if the velocity remained the same throughout the shot at 30 yards a 300 fps second arrow would arrive in .3 seconds and in .3 seconds a 270 fps arrow would make it to 27 yards, but since the faster arrow scrubs velocity quicker this will actualley make the distance less.
@@MobyMikePumpkins sorry for the bad math! My brain to mouth filter was working I guess. I apologize about the mute point. Thanks for watching!
@@chadsylvester8336 you guys are doing great, good luck this year!
Shooting a 45 lb longbow, speed will never be an option for me, so weight will have to do, and it does.
Unless your speed erodes to 30 fps it will not take an arrow a full second to fly 10 yards.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed that statement
A second is a long long time for a deer. Shit I could dodge something going twice that speed. Minimum 130 fps at 15 yards and that's for small game
For 35 years l have been shooting through deer with a 45 lb longbow and 700 grain arrows it's not complicated its finding what works for you
I shoot Easton axis 5mm 340 spine. 420 grains 17% foc and i shoot 284 fps. Out of my mathews V3X 29. At 64# 29inch draw. My arrows shoot flat. I have not deer hunted wt it yet. But i have hogg hunted and i got pass through on them. So i know a deer will be ok and a bear to hunt wt these arrows. The hoggs were a great test.
I've been bow hunting for 35+ yrs.
A wise man told me the 50/50/50 rule.
A bow shooting a 450 grain arrow at 250 fps. under 50 yards will kill anything on this continent with a sharp broadhead in the kill zone.
Everyone wants a faster bow. Now that we have them the arrow can't fly flat enough. It's not a gun. The arrow is going to arc. That's what the sights are for. Know your distance make the shot. As bows got faster, arrows went lighter for alot of people. That doesn't make since. It's tough to duck an arrow they can't hear coming. Make your bow quiet.
What kind of math do you do to figure an arrow takes a second to go 10 yards!? Lmao.
Sorry Michael. My brain to mouth filter obviously wasn't working. A mute point in the video
@@chadsylvester8336 *moot……I hated to do it but couldn’t resist, sorry, I am now a grammar nazi, haha.
When calculating the speed of a on arrow down range you have to take into affect drag and speed erosion in your calculation. At 60-70 yards when it comes to weight a 580 grain arrow would be traveling just as fast as a 380 grain arrow. because the speed is changing constantly as its flying. You would have to do some diff EQ to figure out the true time. I am guessing you did a find x when coming up with a 1 second difference
It was actually bad math.. the difference in time would be in 1/10ths of seconds. Either way we have some lab radar content coming that will be black and white.
I shoot micro arrows with 418g with a 17 foc and a 60 pound pull . I get deeper penetration on targets then 90% of the people shooting. So I’m confident that I will get past Throughs on deer and elk. On the chronograph my arrows are travelling at 282 feet per second. Anybody think that won’t happen?
Should work good for you. Use a fixed moderate sized broadhead.
Speed is King! What ever setup you can get going 300+ fps is lethal on anything in North America....period!
Sounds like a need for testing and practicing pin gap shooting.
Nothing in the archery world at any distance is faster then a deer that's on to you. Personal experience.
Better yet, check out the GrizzlyStik 650 Whitetail video.
270 FPS arrow to go an extra 10 yds (30 feet) is approx 1/10th of a second (0.1 seconds).Not a full second.
Actually your bows energy transfer to the arrow is more efficient when the arrow is heavier. That is why the bows tend to get more quiet as arrow weight goes up. Now, I am not suggesting everyone should go heavy, but in my opinion a sub 425 grain arrow for hunting is just as ridiculous as anything over 600 grains. I think anywhere between 450 and 550 are great weights for anything in North America. All that said, I shoot 715 😉
700 here 🤙
That's exactly what we used to believe until talking to lead engineers at MAJOR bow manufacturers. During multiple interviews, we were told flagship bows are designed for peak performance and efficiency around IBO numbers.
@@chadsylvester8336 so you and the "engineers" are going to tell me with a straight face that a 400 grain arrow out of 80 +/- 2 lbs bow set to 30" - 33" draw is going to have more KE and Momentum than my 715 grain arrow out of a 75 lbs bow set to a 29" draw going 254 fps? I call 🐃💩
@@michaelvstheworld3680 You can listen to it for yourself word for word on the Deer Gear Podcast with the lead engineer from Mathews.
@@chadsylvester8336 V3X 33" IBO is 336 fps. So lets run the numbers with a 400 grain arrow. Looks like KE 100.25 fp and Momentum is .597 slugs. Pretty good. Now my V3 31" with a 715 grain arrow going 254 fps. Looks like my KE is 102.41 fp and my Momentum .806 slugs. Looks like my performance numbers beat the IBO.
Try a range finder
SPEED = How hard it hits the animal
MASS = How far it travels through the animal
A whole second to go extra 10 yards? I did the math. It's 0.1s at max range. This guy is off by an order of magnitude. That's a big error.
To put it differently 300 fps is 10% faster than 270 fps. That's it. A 10% decrease in distance will cover for it. 36 yards instead of 40, for example.
It gets better at max distance, because fast and light arrows slow down faster. They might drop less initially, but they will drop less consistently over distance.
The difference in flight time to go another 10 yards is a second? Really? How is that, when the arrow travels 300 feet in one second? (Of course there's a bit more to calculating velocity because of deceleration but that doesn't really matter for the purpose of this discussion, partly because the 270fps arrow is slowing at a slower rate.
The flight time to 30 yards at a starting velocity of 90 yards/sec (270fps) is only 1/3 of a second and the difference to 30 yards between 270 and 300fps would be a fraction under that.
Of course, the arrow is slowing as soon it leaves the bow, but all other things being equal, a nice heavy arrow will retain velocity better. There is a crossover if you can start out fast enough that the heavy arrow never catches up, but then at the target, an arrow light enough to do that might not get such great results.
I agree with most comments here..
But they're based on their situation..
I think that a QUIET BOW that is proportioned to the shooters,build and weight needs is very more important. If your bow is loud it better be real fast..my longbow is quiet yet it only shoots 180fps.
I can get a pass through shot on a deer with a 2 blade broadhead but rarely with a 3 blade.
Oh yeah, and I love my Exodus cams.
Just saying
Thanks for watching Tim!
Most of today's bows are quiet. I shoot lighter arrows and my bow is very quiet. A slight thud from the string stop and that's it.
The actual time to target difference between a 450gn set up to a 550gn set up is absurdly negligible. The only valid argument for faster and lighter is trajectory and pin gap. The argument for heavier is that if you ever hit a bone, you will wish you had a heavier arrow. Personally, I am not a big proponent of heavier arrows just for the sake of it. I feel like that is wasted potential. I prefer using the lightest GPI shaft I can afford and add weight in front to increase FOC. I would rather have a 560 gn arrow with 24% foc than a 650 gn arrow with 17% foc. The benefits in penetration of higher foc are exponential for every percentage gained, the benefits on penetration of a heavier arrow with lower foc are not.
Rather, have a higher FOC than just raw weight.
Momentum and KE are related you can’t talk about them as if you only have one or the other. Momentum does not kill it is not energy. KE does the killing. Momentum keeps the KE in line, high momentum means it harder to deviate from the vector, it allows you to put the KE where you want it. So yeah high momentum helps with penetration but only because it allows the KE to do its thing in a straighter line. Make sense? No prob not. Just shoot a moderate arrow at modern speed and you’ll be fine.
momentum is what propels the arrow THROUGH the deer, kinetic energy is only a useful measurement for bullets bc that works with "hydrostatic shock". You are transferring a shock wave into the whole animal to rupture cells, not the same with arrow. Momentum is what measures an objects ability to continue forward (penetration)
not to be rude, but what you said makes no sense, kinetic energy and momentum are two different ways to measure something, you don't even use the two ever in the same formula, so one does not "INFLUENCE" the other
I studied engineering and "kinematics" in school and you absolutely ALWAYS measure one without the other, because that is literally how the equations are defined
Don’t forget about shooting in windy conditions. Slightly heavier setup is less prone to wind drift in my experience.
Traditional bow hunters shoot sub 180fps. Speed doesn't kill deer. You'll never be faster than they are. Quiet, accuracy, and skill kill deer. Bow's actually get less efficient as arrows get lighter as more of the energy is dumped into the bow rather than the arrow.
With that being said, if you're hunting white tail, and hit the boiler room, just about anythings gonna work so shoot what you're comfortable with.
stone age bow: 45 lbs bow without deflex/reflex recurves or anything, 160fps, 500 grain arrow. that´s enough
Speed trumps mass . Why . Because you will easily get pass through with 400 grains . A pass through is a pass through is a pass through.
If your goal is two holes then your set up would hands down be heavy vs light. I’m surprised how many of you would argue with someone who’s done YEARS of research on heavy arrows. Dr. Ashby has forgotten more about physics than anyone jn this video or who’s commented on this thread will ever know. One is better than the other in terms of killing. Target shooting is different.
We can agree on fixed heads though right 😂
100% between the three of us
As long ass they're single bevel 2 blades 🤣
The heavier arrow is more efficient
Your math is WAAAAAYYY off at the end of the video 😂😂😂
Yep. One tenth vs one ninth of a second for 30 feet. I can’t believe nobody else caught that. 300 vs 270 feet per second.
A 700 grain arrow is not necessary for deer hunting. The problems occur when archers prioritize speed and end up shooting an arrow that is too light for hunting. These arrows fail at the first problem, instead of overcoming it - be it a heavy bone or an unseen twig. Leave the "extremes" for extreme people and stay somewhere in the 450-550 range and, as a deer hunter, you should be good.
Neither is a .30-06 but plenty of guys use them 🤷♂️
No one has ever missed an animal from too much penetration. Unless you are trying to hunt out beyond 100 yards (for guys like Tim Gillingham and Levi Morgan and the like) there's really nothing to lose with going stupid heavy.
If you're within 40 yards, they'll either hear the string and duck or they won't. Deer jump the fastest arrows already, so unless you can increase the speed by an order of magnitude you should just go for quiet.
Plenty have been killed, quite ethically, by low poundage and short draw hunters with the range of a squirt gun. The answer has always been the heaviest arrow that can still go as far as you need it to go. And if you're not that extreme, then dial back the weight a few percent from there. Who are you trying to impress with your speed rig?
@@davehalm7362 I agree that plenty of people use the ought-6 but rifle hunters and archers are entirely different animals in terms of how their projectiles kill, but I recognize your point.
@@YoureSoVane I agree entirely with your post. I would go heavier with my arrow if bows could drive it at the same speed I have now. I think the speed I currently achieve is a good velocity and my bow issues a dull thump upon the shot. My brother shoots the same bow (RevoltX) but uses a significantly lighter arrow - his bow is markedly louder and I can't remember the last time he shot through a deer in Minnesota.
I find that not to be true. I shoot lighter arrows and I break shoulders and ribs with no problem. I've been shooting whitetails for nearly 50 years with a bow and I've tried everything. Heavy arrows, light arrows, slow bows and fast bows. I'm shooting a hunting arrow at 315 fps and it blows through whitetails and buries hard in the ground after pass throughs. The problem I see with a lot of today's archers is they shoot huge open on contact mechanical heads and wonder why the arrow doesn't penetrate very deep. A lot of tv personalities do the same thing. It kills the deer usually but the arrow is sticking out when they run off. If you use a moderate size mechanical or a fixed head it will blow through them no problem if your bow is tuned.
40 yards is the problem
It's easy. Speed Kills. Guns are better at It. Because, Speed Kills. If Your have a Spine Issue. Get an OverDraw. The Faster It gets there. The less Time It has to drop. You don't lose Momentum. The Faster It goes is equivalent to the Heavy Mass. High Speed Light Mass have Essentially the Same KE as Heavy Slow Mass out of the Same Bow. Do the Math. The Difference is minimal and not worth Lobing Any Arrow. Go Shoot some Competition 3D with Your Heavy Sticks and get embarrassed by the IBO Speed. It's very Educational..
i shoot 55 lbs max!! Thats all you need!! had a pass through at 40yds on a 8 point buck this year!! DEER ARE NOT REALLY THAT BIG !!!!!!! I shoot a 28 inch carbon arrow 400 spine!!
Speed is irrelevant. If you shoot a straw 60 mph at a cars side panel or ..... toss a 5lb cannon ball which one caused a more devastating dent.
Guy plz check your math you kept harping on what could happen in that extra 1sec you get from 300fps over the 270fps.
100yard at 300fps= 1 sec
100yard at 270fps= 1.11 sec
I don’t won’t people to be miss lead by that statement.