Is Poker Gambling?
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- čas přidán 19. 06. 2024
- Is #poker gambling? If it is, is it gambling the same way that slot machines and the lottery are? This video explores #gambling, common misconceptions, the skill vs. luck argument, why being able to deliberately lose a game matters, religion, and identifying problem gamblers and addicts. Enjoy!
0:00 Good Morning
0:19 Defining Gambling
0:58 Is Poker Gambling
1:36 What Else Is Gambling
3:00 Luck vs Skill In Poker
6:25 Religion And Gambling
8:02 Problem Gambling And Addiction
8:41 Edges
As a general disclaimer, I am not a doctor, psychologist, a psychiatrist, nor does anything in this video qualify as financial advice. If you feel you or a loved one is suffering from problem gambling or addiction, please contact GamCare: www.gamcare.org.uk/
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What your homing in on is that pretty much everything in life involves gambling, which is true.
Yup 🕳️
Honing
the problem is that james (and you) is equivocating risk, like insurance, investments, getting in your car to drive to work, with gambling. they arent the same because insurance is offering to assume the downside of your catastrophes in exchange for a +EV premium. investments are what allow people with no money to start important businesses. and cars help us drive to work.
in other words people are offering and purchasing services from one another and everyone gets what they want. that is not true in poker. there is no service being offered, and people do not get what they want unless they are the winner.
@YoreyC I think if you polled a lot of the recreational poker player pool, you'd see a lot of people who get and enjoy very real non-monetary enjoyment from playing poker. Given that, there is 100% a service being offered to them...
@@xxxViceroyxxx Entertainment is a service. When you buy a ticket to a movie, play, sports event, concert, or any other form of entertainment you are paying money for the amusement and the experience. Same with poker. And, for that matter, same with blackjack, roulette, casino games in general.
The whole “gambling isnt a sin” is so true. I met a cute girl once and I was interested in her and she told me gambling was a sin while getting drunk drinking beer. (Alcoholism is a sin but drinking itself isn’t.) Couldn’t believe the hypocrisy. I told her find me a scripture and she still insisted it’s a sin. 🤔Let’s just say I dodged a bullet.
Or she dodged yours like neo.
@@markgothard7158 😂
great video! To me, "pure" gambling is when you play conscious of not having an edge, like when you play slot machines or roulette or blackjack which are designed to make you lose eventually, hoping for luck to go your way and make you win a lot of money in the short term. Poker swings can be tough and the mental game too, but that can be true for every job or hobby in the world.
If you're a card counter, you can beat some blackjack games. :) I like your definition.
Good video. One minor glitch in my view. Insurance is different from gambling in that buying insurance is a way to minimize risk by pooling money with others in order to mitigate potential loss resulting from an unplanned event, whereas gambling is actually creating a risk of loss that didn't exist before the wager was placed.
Awesome video. The closest I’ve ever come in searching the Scriptures in regards to gambling is we are to be good stewards with what God has entrusted to us. Enjoyed your analogies and breakdowns, very direct and civil way to present what playing poker is to those who condemn people for playing.
Another good/interesting definition or example, is here in the States, the IRS makes a distinction between income that is generated from games of chance versus games of skill.
The Supreme Court looked at the variance of different activities. As I recall bicycling was low variance (i.e. the best person almost always won) and soccer was high variance. This is not to say that soccer is a low skill sport, just that it was high variance. They concluded that Poker was closer to skill than gambling because long term losers usually lost and long term winners usually won. That decision continues to play out in the courts.
🤔 I think the main thing that should inform one as to whether or not they or someone they know is a poker addict (as with all forms of addiction whether drugs or other behaviors) is based on the answer to one simple question: Do I or the person in question consistently neglect their responsibilities in order to pursue the game, whether they take it seriously by studying and take notes or not? If yes, this is a problem. If no, you're good.
Otherwise great video and great analysis.
This was great. Good comparisons between the lottery, stock market, etc. As a Christian, I agree “gambling” isn’t listed or mentioned as a sin, and I don’t think that is where someone would tell you there was necessarily an issue.
When we play poker, as with lots of other activities, we can open ourselves up to sinful behavior such as coveting (someone else’s chips for instance) and deceiving others, which is baked into the cake. So just because something isn’t specifically mentioned doesn’t mean it can’t still be considered sin. Take it for what it’s worth, just something to think about from that angle. Of course going that far could open up just about any activity to being sinful.
I obviously still play, and I don’t consider it sinful, but I can at least see how one could make the argument. Thanks for all the videos. You really do a great job.
It was so important, it is written not once, not twice, but THREE TIMES (Matthew 19-24; Mark 10-25; Luke 18-25) "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." I don't play poker to win money, I've always played poker because I love to play poker. These days my main hangout is the play chip side of Poker Stars since my American Government took away our rights and our freedoms on April 15, 2011... maybe they just wanted to help us get into heaven? LMAO Yeah right.
Cheers! And like you said, anything can become sinful if managed incorrectly (and I'd be remissed if I didn't mention 1 John 3:4 here 😁)
Christianity is gamble. Pretending that something is real without evidence is pretty big gamble
@@HighTide_808 I’d agree, but faith is powerful. As a very logically black and white type thinker, I often wrestle with the idea of it because to believe in something that doesn’t feel tangible and can’t be seen doesn’t feel logical.
However I cannot deny the way I feel about God and the way God has touched my life seemingly illogically.
Faith is a beautiful thing that knows no bounds.
@@ThePokerBank as a christian who believes we should all get right with God because the rapture is coming soon also we might get nuked soon, i dont see poker as sin because its a game of skill. no different than any other contests which involve cash payouts to winners. remember how Jesus condemned the guy who buried his money instead of going out and doubling it.
The basic problem with Poker (Texas Hold Em) is the lack on information. There is no doubt that some level of skill is required to play the game but we have to be realistic, it is some hand ranges + positions and it is not rocket science. Now here is the thing with lacking of information:
At the beginning you have knowledge of 2 cards and this is 2 out of 52 which is roughly 4%. At the showdown you will have knowledge of 7 out of 52 cards which is around 14%. No matter how good your skill is, you can not gain more information (besides reads and tells in live poker).
Now let´s say we want to compare Poker to Tennis: You have a Tennis court but you do not have the information of the lines and the hight of the net. You basically don´t know where the line is and how high the net is. At this point it does not matter how good you can hit a line if you do not know where the line is.
If we sum it up and you could gain around 30% of information (reads and tells in live games) then the majority of all information is unknown to you. Then we could say, if you have 100% skill then Poker is still 70% luck.
Every Poker book will tell you something about calculating your odds but this calculation is incomplete. An OESD has 8 outs and by rule of thumb you have around 24% chance (on Flop) to hit it. This is a very simple view on it because you - again - do not have any information if your 8 outs are still in the deck. Remember, you do not know the folded cards from your other opponents (8 opponents = 16 cards). In worst case scenario there is no one of your 8 outs left in the deck and you have 0% chance to hit your straight.
Long term winning is possible with a huge amount of hands and a very tight selection of starting hands (only premium hands). With Poker Tracker and so on, it will be not so easy to get value if your PIP is 5%. In order to not be blinded down you will need to wider your range from late positions and then statistics will not be on your side in the long term.
Skill will bring you a lot of small pots (usually on the flop) but the outcome of the big pots is mostly luck. And this is the problem,.... you could do everything correct and lose 2 stacks (200 BB) in 10 Minutes,..... you will need a huge amount of small pots to be even.
Poker is still fun to play if you are not addicted and if you can spare the money in case you lose.
Great video Sweendog! I never gamble in poker, unless I get pocket Jacks ofc X)
i like how you understand the question perfectly to answer it shortly poker is gambling but its not the same as blackjack or roullette .
most people know those games so they compare it to it
and when we say poker is gambling most people assume we try to say
poker is the same as roullette and blackjack
its not the same but its still a game involving risking money
so its gambling-thats what the word means
gambling doesnt mean russian poker or blackjack
Poker is a game of strategic investing
A gamble is 50/50 , whatever side the edge is on is either profit or loss , like when you bet sports ..do you have an edge vs the bookie or does he have an edge against you +EV vs -EV
Awsome video. I have put alot of thought into this the past few years since I became a Christian. Praying often and searching the scriptures for a clear answer and have essentially come up with the same answers you have. Furthermore, one thing that is kind of cool about this as it relates to my specific life situation is that my dad taught me how to play when I was young. After he and my mom got divorced my life went to complete and utter crap. I started partying too much. Drinking and using drugs, chasing women etc. I began to really loose myself to that lifestyle. All the while my one getaway from everyone and everything was the poker table. When I was at the table my mind was clear. I was intuitive and exercising my best judgment and putting alot of the things I had learned into practice. This helped me tremendously. I eventually took some of the same things that I learned on the felt and applied it to my life. Than with all the information I had gathered i made the best read of my life and became a born again Christian. Been crushing it on and off the felt ever since. I dont play as much as I would like to but when I do get the chance ooooohhhhhh weeeeeeeeee! I run pretty good lol
I appreciate this comment a lot
@@tristandueck6077 glad it helped👍
Thanks for sharing - I have a similar testimony.
I asked a Catholic Priest about this and he said that gambling itself is not a Sin, but indulging gambling in such a way that causes harm is a Sin - that is if it takes money, time, energy away from responsibilities then it's a dangerous form of Gluttony.
Its not a problem if you're winning!
right now, practice each day and you'll definitely feel your edge over the game get sharper. 🔪💰
you can learn to roll the dice or spin the wheel to more likely land on a certain number, I can roll sixes 6-8 times out of ten
Thx James
The unavoidable risk of poker is time.
The factor of volume should be considered in the "gambling" equation. (volume measured in equal value bets) A simple example is a black jack table that a casino runs. One bet involves both the player and the casino. So they are both gambling with the outcome being about 50/50 on one bet. But over thousands of bets, the casino's slight edge means that they will always win, that is not gambling for the casino, although they are playing the same game of chance. The same can be said about any game where one player has a significant skill advantage. I can play one session with Phill Ivey and maybe get involved with 15 hands and come out ahead. But over a high volume of hands there is a 100% chance that I will lose, hence not a gamble for Ivey.
Yea flipping quad aces is all skill…
The religion gambling section is amazing 🔥 🔥 🔥
insurance addresses risks that cannot realistically be mitigated. poker or investing risks are voluntary taken
Poker pros are all about making the most positive EV decisions.. But choose a negative EV profession 😂
Underrated comment.
Explain
They contribute to society nothing, they didn't pay nothing to governments most of the time , their cv is empty, it is harmful job for your sanity and your time .
Thanks for this video. Been trying to explain this to mt girlfriend.
Welcome to the club buddy
Track every session. If you’re a winning player, you will develop proof. I have about 1000 hours tracked with a large win rate so nobody can say anything anymore. My family and friends were initially concerned because I play about 15 hours a week. Funny because I average more than double my work hourly lol.
the fact that I like player poker more when I've been drinking tells me there are neurochemical processes going on related to something compulsive. I like playing poker when I'm sober as well. But I'd never think that playing tennis and drinking at the same time would be appealing. Or playing drunk chess. It must have to do with the adrenaline response you get in a big hand.
Tennis is 100% more fun drunk
@@idonthaveaname42 I never tried pickle ball but it's probably great drunk
@@idonthaveaname42 so is chess
Poker is gambling as it has risk and things you can’t control. But it’s more about strategic investment not blind luck. Someone said to me ‘well betting on sports is the same as poker, you can learn their stats, health…’ but I think of it as well yes but you have no influence over a sports game outcome but you do have influence in a poker game.
If you buy Amazon stocks that's investing, because in the long it will likely be worth more than what you bought it for. Wagering money on roulette is gambling, because it's a long term losing bet, as the payout when you win does not match the true odds.
Well, Blackjack is not pure luck. You can choose to loose on purpose but you will still loose in the long run, even though you play perfect. So just because you can loose on purpose this doesnt mean that the skill component is high enough so you automatically will win money against worse opponents. I would say poker has such a high luck component and poker players became so much better and more educated that you have to have a massive edge to really gain decent amount of money.
Even though you have a small edge on a player you can easily loose for weeks or even months against this particular players. I'm aware of the fact that really good poker players will win money in the long run but for the majority of poker players I believe its basically mostly luck.
thank you rabbi
Not a rabbi 👍
The part about insurance is highly inaccurate-Insurance NEVER pays for everything.
To your gambling and poker part: Christoph Vogelsang, one of the best poker tournament players is really religious.
set your audio to a higher level more gain on recording and less mid tones more High end... it will sound better... and not so low...
Every breath we take is a gamble
Indeed, life is gamble.
Yes
Poker is definitely gambling. It's just gambling you can - with skill - play with a small edge in your favour, rather than the house's favour as is usual with gambling. However, to guarantee converting an edge into a profit you need to play lots and lots of times - easy enough for the house to do in games like roulette because they have a huuuuge bankroll and lots of customers, but for one person, it takes a long time, and you can easily go days and months losing money despite having an edge. You can lose your entire bankroll whilst playing literally perfect poker, and I think that tells you that it's gambling.
Not being religious I don't have any moral issue with gambling compared to any other activity. But I do firmly believe in not gambling money you can't afford to lose, and I apply that equally to poker as I would to roulette, blackjack or any other gambling.
Poker is gambling. There are other games that aren't pure skill but once you put your money down it's gambling. Additionally, look at the number of talented pros who went broke. Addiction is a different issue. It can be tied to gambling or any number of addictions.
In certain circumstances just going to bed at night is an event with an indefinite outcome. It is life, everything here is a gambling of some sort. One uses his strategic skills and crosses fingers to last another ten years. And the hound race during the ovulation. So we all are gamblers by our guts here)
Depends....if your play style is like Seymore_Fl0pz I'd say yes!
when vlog tho !!?
I'd say it's a mixture between gambling and sport.
anything you can do with a beer in your hand is not a sport
@@jamescollier3 that's your opinion. I consider Chess as a Sport, too. You don't. And that's cool! 👍
@@jamescollier3 I play ping pong with a beer on my hand some time I use as a 2nd pad
James do you think a compulsive gambler could ever be a successful poker player?
Likely not since too many bankrolls would get torched. I personally think a compulsive gambler should avoid poker the same way an alcoholic should avoid the bar fwiw.
@@ThePokerBank I am a compulsive gambler who plays winning poker but I’m always on the verge of disaster. Compulsive gamblers can’t handle downswings without a potential collapse with sports or the pit or even if just poker going on tilt too easy. I can’t really explain what happens to my brain if I start to lose but I lose all perspective and it feels like the world is falling apart even if I’m up overall for the month or the year.
@@qsdailydose8970 Sounds like there are other hobbies/games that you are better suited for. And that's alright!
@@ThePokerBank but I love poker! And I study. Sucks man because I make impulsive decisions at the table that are losing EV no matter how many notes and rules I make for myself.
Everything is a gamble. My dad once said to my mom that I "don't like to gamble enough" I own my own business and my mom said to my dad "What do you mean? What do you think owning your own business is? His whole life and family are wrapped into a gamble everyday." It's all odds and percentages. I'm the guy from your math problems. "If you buy 150 cantaloupes at $1.50 each and can sell them for $5.00 each with a loss to spoilage at 5%, and a fuel cost of $50, how much do you stand to make if the weather is decent that weekend and you can sell 80% of the melons?" $343 IF the weather is nice, if it rains and no one comes out, then you will be lucky to break even and get to donate a LOT to the food bank
Soooo. Every conversation with my boss is gambling
Skill vs Luck…can you play with a goal of LOSING and make it happen? If yes, it’s a game of skill.
Poker isn't gambling when you lose every tournament you play. There's almost no element of chance. I play a tournament and I lose. Rinse and repeat daily. LOL I don't publicize my screennames (because I'm a nobody) but if people could see my 2022 sharkscope... well heck, you don't have to see it, just imagine a straight line sloping downward from the upper left to the lower right at about a 45 degree angle. Ten or 15 years ago, poker was so much fun... but these days? There's no joy in mudville anymore, Homer...
Poker cash game is definitely gambling. Reason why: Most poker pros like Ivy or Negreanu got up to 20 times broke in their poker career because of odds and ouds doesn't count if you lose 1 million US$ in one hand by a gutshot on the river of the opponent. You lost 1 million US$ and there is no ouds or odds which will safe you to return this loss.
The case why some of these pros survive are the huge sponsorships they got. Poker is a part of the multi billion $ gambling industry and they need famous faces for their promotions and advertisements. Same in a Casino: over 99.5% are losers or some of them can keep the financial statues more than less even.
The fact that something is gambling says nothing about the skill based aspect. 2 people can bet against eachother that they're better at basketball. Pure skill, it's still gambling. It says nothing about risk, both an individual and a sports betting company are partaking in gambling whenever a bet has been agreed upon.
The word "gamble" has only existed since the 18th century, so it's kind of silly to expect it to be written in scripture. There are many verses that mention to not test God, or Gods will, and I'm sure many people will point to those verses when arguing that gambling is a sin, not to say that their actions aren't contradictory when they themselves may partake in things like the lottery or bingo
Footnote: I love poker, and I study and play it often, but I wouldn't kid myself into believing I wasn't gambling. In fact I'd say by kidding myself that it wasn't gambling would be one of the first red flags that it may be becoming a problem.
I'm also definitely not a religious, I just don't see the logic in the point that was made
If it's in the casino, then it's gambling. No need to complicate things. It attracts nothing but vices, and comes with that are bunch of shady characters.
From a Jewish perspective, gambling is kind of interesting (and poker being a game of skill arguably doesn't help and might make things worse). The talmud appears to lump gamblers into a larger group of people that cannot appear as a witness in court because their business earns money from a forbidden action at someone else's expense (ex. loaning with interest). It is generally further explained the problem with gambling is that the other person would not be willing to take the bet if they knew they would lose, and is different from a business investment or other activities that involve financial risk that aren't definitionally a zero sum game. Personally I find poker interesting and enjoy studying it, but I pretty much limit myself to low stakes games with friends where we are all clearly willing to lose that amount of money to enjoy a game night but I also don't judge others who play for real money.
I'm a problem investor...
There is no difference between playing poker and investing in stock markets. If you have low levels of knowledge and experience they are both gambling. If you have high enough levels to make a profit over a certain time period then it's not gambling.
I agree about 90% with this. In the long-term the average investor is going to profit as in general markets go up. In the long-term the average poker player is going to lose money because of the rake.
8:22 No it's not the same, and so it is a sophism.
Because eating is a need for survival, where gambling, or even money, is not.
Money, may, in some cases.... But you can be taken care of, for free... Maybe not in the US, unsure... France here, btw :)
Even in France, are you really being taken care of for free? Someone has to be footing the bill somewhere along the chain, right?
How about this perspective. If you’re losing, in the long run you’re a gambling. If you’re winning you are playing a game of skill.
It's not great simply because you're changing the definition of the game (in terms of skill vs. luck) based solely upon outcome. That's like saying a player is a skill player at roulette because they won a spin, but the same player is a gambler if they lose the next spin. The game is what it is regardless of specific results.
20% skill 80% luck unless you never bet without having the nut and that's about as much fun as watching paint dry but that's what pros do most of the time but it makes the game work and boring
You can play poker, also you can gamble with poker as well. Poker is poker, gamblers gamble. Btw, poker is the worst option to play if you want to gamble. Because casino games won't change their house way just for exploiting you. But poker players will.
Poker has been my JOB for the last 8 months! So I can say it is NOT a 100% luck-based game.
Whoa. Brave boi, bringing religion to the table at all. Respect! 🤜
I personally hate all religions, even mine....
Tough not to discuss religion given that's the basis used more often than not for why people demonize poker ime
@@ThePokerBank Really, is that so? 😅
Idk, man. I just think people "demonize" poker, because they're ignorant. Most of the time.....
@@ThePokerBank must be southern US thing, because here in Canada I have never had anyone use the bible against me with respect to poker
Could be, for sure.
Even free poker is gambling by that definition. Time is money
Every time you get in your car and drive it's a gamble
Getting Married.
Bro extreme edge is not a thing it’s still gambling n a very slippery slope to addiction
For the majority of us I would say it’s gambling
5:27 🤡
Can't be real that surely lol 😂
Marriage..
Life..
The Bible is littered with calls to manage your money well and for God's purpose. It doesn't specifically reference gambling in it as good or bad, so you'd have to decide if the type of gambling you're doing aligns with the other calls to manage money well. Odds are with most gambling, you're not, but studying up your pre-flop charts and post flop strategy might be a path towards managing your money well.
There is over 30 verses about casting lots in the Bible. Proverbs 16:33 is my favorite. The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD. God loves casting lots!
Yes indeed, but my point is that script doesn't call gambling/casting lots a sin. Otherwise, it would make no sense that Aaron is to cast lots for the scapegoat (Lev 16:8)
@@ThePokerBank I was trying to agree with you. I'm not very good with words. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding :(
You don’t need to show anything to people that think you have a addiction, if you happy and you are able to live because of that is more than enough. All bible’s stuff is just to justify yourself, you don’t need that
I made it a couple minutes in before I had to quit watching. I hate the "stock market is gambling" cliche so lame. But now buying health insurance is gambling? That's actually NOT gambling; not having health insurance is the bigger gamble. Which means everything is gambling, which means gambling doesn't actually mean anything, which makes this video pointless.
While you might understand that, a lot of people outside of gambling circles will have incredibly negative feelings about poker but happily go play Bingo on Friday night - not understanding that both are actually gambling. Updating & correcting perception on non-problem gambling is important imo
C'mon, we all know the answer.
I haven't watched in a few years, does James still think that every value bet ever made in the history of poker is too small?
No, some are now too big!
@@ThePokerBank Wow! You've really changed!
Love the vids mate lol
I'm not religious nor do I care about what the Bible says, but 'gambling' not coming up in a Ctrl+F doesn't mean the Bible doesn't say anything about gambling lmao, it actually says a lot about it. Try searching 'casting lots' next time. That's the term most modern English versions of the Bible use for gambling.
I'm very aware. What is your point about "casting lots"?
@@ThePokerBank You acted like the Bible doesn't talk about gambling but it does.
My point was that scripture doesn't specify gambling as a sin (1 John 3:4). Yes there are mentions 'of gambling', but many pastors will act as though scripture 100% says gambling is a sin...which would be odd since a.) it doesn't and b.) Yah actually instructs Aaron to cast lots for the scapegoat (Lev 16:8)...
@@ThePokerBank Now THAT I can agree with! In the video it sounded like you were implying the Bible just doesn't mention gambling at all which is misleading.
Why did the apostles cast lots? Were they gambling? Was it a sin for them to replace Judas?
Are you dating my gf too?
Online poker is not a gamble. It's sure loss. There is nothing to risk. Risk is excluded there. Or another words: the loss is guaranteed. Just like flushing your money down the toilette. As soon as you pushed the button, the money is gone. Safe and securely. No miss there. You will lose there, never mind how hard you try not to.
Then why am I a long term winner on Pokerstars then?
@@Goatboy451 ohhh, you're special. Whole poker world knows about.
Of course, poker is gambling. The casino is gambling when it accepts a bet.
you aren't playing against the casino
@@mad4jen the same principle applies. If you are a profitable player, you ae still gambling, just as the casino is.
It isn't gambling...it is investment in probability outcomes and prediction realities.
If you're all in EV line is positive then it's not gambling... 😎
yes it is