The LIES You've Been Told About Gamedev
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- čas přidán 15. 05. 2024
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In this video, we'll unravel five common myths in indie game development.
From the widely-held belief that starting with your dream game is a recipe for disaster to the notion that certain genres are bound to fail, we challenge these misconceptions head-on.
We'll also explore the role of tutorials, emphasizing a balanced approach to learning, and discuss the importance of quality over gimmicks when it comes to hooking players.
Additionally, we'll shed light on the potential of devlogs to captivate a broader audience, highlighting their role in showcasing the creative process behind game development.
Whether you're a new developer or a seasoned veteran, these insights may offer you a new perspective on some common misconceptions and widespread beliefs about "the right way" to do game dev.
If you're new to our channel, we're Brandon & Nikki from Sasquatch B Studios. We sold our house to start our game studio, and work full time on building our business and making our game Samurado.
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#gamedev #indiegame #gamedevelopment - Hry
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I'm 9 months into learning ue5 and was trying to learn everything I could about making my dream game. Nothing was clicking with me until I started doing game jams. Now I'm 2 jams in an my confidence is threw the roof for my main project . I highly suggest game jams!
prototyping a citybuilder? 2 days.
polishing a city builder? fuggin years
Celeste didn’t come out of nowhere. It was made by an already successful group of developers (Towerfall) who had a NOT INSIGNIFICANT amount of insider connections in the indie game “community”.
I slightly disagree with your take on #4. i think the problem here is your personal definition of what a "Hook" is. A Hook doesn't mean something never done before, what it means is something that is attractive and enticing enough to pull people in. All your games you listed do that. Hollow Knight for example its art style is a very big factor into hooking players. similarly so is Ori. Hades the way they did story telling in that game made it one of its biggest hooks. So I do think your game needs passion and I think this is what most people are referring to when they say a game needs a "Hook" it needs to show some sort of love and care and a PART of it needs to stand out and catch peoples attention aka a Hook. But a hook can be something that isn't new. it just has to be personalized.
Was gonna write something very similar since i wasn't sure if i have misunderstood what "hook" is or if Brandon has (or what is most likely is that various devvloggers & other devs use this term differently). Your comment made me realize it wasn't me-issue. Hook doesn't mean unique nor does it always involve "x but with a twist" concept. Hook is just something that catches eye potential buyer, makes them take the bait and then they are hooked. It doesn't matter if its brand new shiny thing that we have never seen before or an old thing that still works. All the games he listed HAS A HOOK! Whether it be simplicity, coziness, environmental storytelling, dopamine or gambling addiction disguised as roguelite. ALL the games he listed has a hook (or multiple).
I agree with this version of what a "hook" is, in essence something to market with. Though he did mention hooks were marketability.
However most of the time the advice of "having a good hook" is almost always followed by examples of wild ideas and concepts never before explored.
How to find a a hook in a generic game? It's really just marketing terms. Generic can be turned into a hook by simply saying "familiar" instead.
Agree 💯 with this.
What is Stardew Valley's hook?
@@Konitama coziness, nostalgia, familiarity
I always suggest that a person puts their passion project on hold and make smaller games that work around some of the main mechanics they will need for their passion project. That way not only do they gain experience and confidence they also put finished games under their belt. and when they eventually get to their passion project they have a better idea of what to try and what not to try
Agree. What he missed to mention about devs who failed doing their dream game is.... that many who started trying and failed didn't try again. Ever. There are so many youtube videos you can find with "dream game" search where if you check their channel - the sad realization that they have been inactive for years. Meaning that after 1-4 dev logs they realized the scope was too big and gave up. And if you look how few of these channels have "finished dream game" video with trailers and call to action... that is so rare sight... i haven't done any analytics but i feel like 90% of devs pursuing to try to make their dreamgame early have stopped being (at least solo) game dev. Maybe even higher rate.
You basically descrip exactly what I have done 😅
Wean I started game development the first project I have in mind it was very big project
Open word RPG soon after I have realized this project it's impasble to create for the expirations I have back then
And after that I have get for small to even smaller scale project I still have those project's in mind
In the end I have ended up make playble game however the project I end up having some fandetal problem's
That it's understable the biggest problem this small project that end up made are the following
1. It's impossible for people to know wean next version release because the go and check if ther is newer version
2. This game it was multiplayer game and have only local multiplayer however it's not easy to fund people from the same time to want to play the game with you 😅.
3. And the therd isuouse that game have it's the fact it's not addictive it's that this game it's was more like experiment for my but for my experience in the that game people play one or twice and that's it.
To be honest even if that's the case my first playble game it was successful because I have seen people enjoy this game even if it's for little while that game have family target audience that means people from all ages,
the game I was thinking it was game inpaerd by air hockey with the main difference that able to play multiple People's and each Player has the own gole.
Enway after I make this project I have starting make one of my dream project not the RPG one but multiplayer fps it's still position project big project but the scale of this project are smaller than rpg one.😅
Also this project it's the perfect opportunity to combine local multiplayer and networking also it have way more potential and and have more people tha are interesting on those genral off game's.
Always start with your dream game, that way you'll fail pretty quickly and get that you need to learn a lot of things first. If you continue, eventually you'll learn everything you need to make it, probably after a decade or more decades. Anyway, you can use separate knowledge about your dream game for smaller games.
All of those games have amazing art as hook. Except maybe Vamp Survivors, but it had an extremely cheap prize at the time.
I think that's broadening what a hook is a bit too much. Also, art is pretty subjective. I've seen people praise Stardew Valley's art and I've also seen people say it looks awful. I guess I also just consider a hook to be more gameplay related and not just literally any aspect of the game that draws people to the game.
@@Konitama I would say Shaq Fu 2 had the hook of it being associated with Shaquille O' Neal.
prices some ppl put on games are definitely why i don't purchase them.. i dunno why indy devs think their first 2d platofmer should be over 20 dollars.. too many ppl doing this sort of thing. some games are worth it if they have good marketing from company like Devolver for example.. but like a really good example right now is this game that Once Upon A Synth made, he's a youtuber.. he's a composer who uses Synthesizer hardware on his youtube. .he made a really cool game but it's like 22 bux.. no one i know wants to pay that price, i've literally tried to get ppl to buy it.. no one biting yet.. it looks awesome. music is awesome .. it should be like hmmm. 15 or 13.99. i'm tellin ya.. this type of thing makes a huge difference in your game sales.
Vampire survivors was made by a guy who made slot machines. He knew how to make his game super addictive. Its sort of a secret hook
I agree on a lot of this. Especially to attempt to make your dream game as your first game. You are going to have the most passion for your dream game, so you will have the most motivation to make that game, specifically. If or when you fail, you learn what your limits are and know what you need to do to either surpass those limits or rework the game to be within your limits, or even know that you'll need to hire a team to make your dream game a reality.
I also fully agree that you should market your game to other devs. I think it's nonsense that people tell you "other devs aren't your target audience" because like... hello? We buy games too! I don't get the weird disconnect of thinking indie game devs don't play or buy other games... Not only have I bought dozens of indie games from devs I've followed on social media, but I've also backed other indie games on Kickstarter.
I honestly wish I could get the passion needed to start making games again, but it's honestly not easy when I am aware that my weakest aspect is understanding coding and that is about 75% of the job. Also good to know confidence is another aspect since I can't figure that out either...
Dont know what experience you have, but if coding is your weakest aspect i suggest you look into game engines that tries to use the "no code" approach, like Gdevelop or even CopperCube.
I'm glad you said this. You challenge public opinion here in a way that strikes up healthy conversations rather than expanding on our all-to-common echo chambers.
Great video! Here are my personal contributions to each note, based on my own experience as a small indie designer.
1) Do make your first game in the genre or subject matter of your dream game, but don't make it in the scope of your dream game. Do stick to the subject matter you want to see built into a dream game- it will keep you focused so you can grind your skills.
2) Pay attention to statistics, facts, and trends from time to time- they do reflect current truths. But if you're making all your design decisions about what will give the best return on investment, I don't like you.
3) Watch as many tutorials as you want. But be careful who you listen to. And second, you are honestly going to save yourself way more time if you buy a good course, or book, from someone with a career, or better, a degree. Drop the "college is for chumps" nonsense if you value your time. Also, if you watch some tutorials or take some courses, apply your knowledge with an experiment or small project 2 to 3 times.
4) You don't need a literal hook, but you do need to maintain player interest. People do have bad attention spans these days. Maintain contact with your player long enough for them to become intrinsically motivated. Also, literal hooks do become more important in narrative based games.
5) If you want to share on CZcams, do it. But be aware that it costs time as well. Make sure to focus on your game more than making videos about your game.
Good luck on your projects, everyone!
Is veil of Maia cancelled?
Great video! I agree with every point you made! Especially the dream game thing. Besides even if you fail at making your dream game it's not like you can't make it again.
The others are fine, but I think number 2 is pretty silly, that's textbook survivorship bias. It's fine to just make whatever if you're doing it exclusively as a hobby, but if you are sincere about wanting to have a stab at make a living, telling yourself "well Hollow Knight was successful, so my metroidvania isn't going to get swamped by the one hundred other (probably better) indie metroidvanias released on the same day" is just burying your head in the sand.
My first game project outside of tutorials was an MMO. It still is. 4 years later I am still working on it. Though, I did start over again when I switched from Unity to Godot in September. Even so, I am farther along with my project in Godot than I ever was in Unity.
Agree with most of what youre saying, other than with your point on making your dream game. Yes, failing hard is a good lesson but for some this can take long to realise and may discourage them for good. I am convinced the best path is to learn the very basics through a more organised course, and then jump straight into a game jam, where you'll be forced to cobble things together. Then you can try your dream game and fail if you want
I enjoyed this video. Thank you. Felt honest and I appreciated that. I love your channel. Thank you.
I appreciate the one about "reading the Docs" that advice really bothered me when I started, now I'd probably be the one saying it 😅😅
Love your vids! Thank you :)
I agree with some of these, but also want to point out that the majority of the 'lower' performing genres (pixel platformers, puzzles games, etc) are, relatively, easier to make and design than, say, a good 4X game. I think this is why when there is a good 4X game it gets traction. Having said that releasing into those underperforming genres just means that there is a lot more competition and if your game doesn't stand out (which as a first game it won't) it will be buried. Celeste wasn't made as a first game. Attempting to make your first game your dream game just means that you will end up after 18 months demoralized and less than half way through. Everyone wants to make the next GTA or whatever but those games take years with a very large team. Scoping is a thing and if your (first) game is going to take you more than a year then you need to descope it. This might mean that it's not like the game you wanted to make, and some people, understandably, don't want to compromise on their dream game. Make and release small games in a short period, it will bring confidence, teach you all about failure and give you the experience to make that dream game.
love your vids good luck!!!
lol who the fuck says dont use tutorials lol
I started off making my dream game, a Metroidvania. I worked on it between 2018 and 2020. I finished around 80% but I abandoned it because I felt the level design was weak.
Love Codecks! Awesome recommendation!
i got inspired by your video to make dev log.
could you make a video on your workflow of how you make your dev logs...
i feel like i have nothing to say in my dev log...
2:49 thats very subjective. I personally love the style
Oh this is interesting - thanks for this video! So important!
I want also say something about that.
1. "Don't make your dream game" - heard so often ..well if its a new GTA then no you shouldn't :D But mostly you can try and if you fail you make other games...and maybe..you come back later after years and know why you failed and can try it again.
2. "Pick the right Genre" - i would say pick the genre of games you want to make. I heard some days ago the advice and it makes total sense..why would a guy who makes rock music switch to hip hop because its more trendy ? He have no passion for it. So here is it: make the game in the genre you want to make. Celeste is a great example! Before celeste came out there where guys who advice in a GDC talk to not make a puzzle platformer :D And then celeste was there.
I also love making platformers - i also make other games but platformers are my passion.
3. Yeah this is Tutorial Hell - but if you start gamedev you need to understand whats going on. I think instead of saying "dont use tutorials" its better so say "try what you learn directly on your gamedev workflow". When i use tutorials i have a project that i want to make and instead of using the assets and stuff i try directly to use this tutorial to make my game.
5. Absolutely - i love devlogs and i have added many games to wishlist and bought them because they were great. I also plan to make devlogs as i would love to share how is my game coming along :)
2. The general advice is still to not make puzzle platformers if you want to make a meaningful amount of money from your game. Celeste didn't change that. It's just an exception that proves the rule. If you're just making games as a hobby then of course you can choose whatever genre you want.
When people say "Pick the right genre" what they mean is that people usually have a few genres they're interested in, and they should choose the one that makes the most money. It doesn't mean choosing whatever genre is the most profitable, even something you have absolutely no interest in.
On #1 I ignored this advise, I'm working on it, as I learn. So I keep doing necessary tutorials where I'm inadequate, and when I come acrossed something useful for my dream game I bookmark it, to later implemented, or see if it can be without changing my original design too much. It certainly wouldn't be a first time release though, when I'm polished, and capable of doing so with that dream game, I will. Let it be your side project, until it's your primary project, having developed the skill.
You can try to make your dream game as first one but it will fail, few next iterations also fail, but from each you will gain experience of what not to do and what to do to finally finish the project in acceptable quality
This! Thanks for putting this out there. You did a great job at breaking down these topics for beginners. You are right, it is hard to understand a lot of the advice many of these channels are giving without the background or experience that teach these lessons the hard way. Keep up the good work.
#4 What's called the hook, or gameplay loop, game loop, and my favorite keeping the player engaged with hills, and mountains of potentially fun interaction. As its impossible to keep a player having fun the whole time, and an unrealistic view. However keeping them engaged long enough to have fun is very easy. So no a hook, loop, whatever isn't necessary, but there had better be increase in story presentation, expressions of dialog, or interrupts, or twist that are unrecognized parts of engagement, enticing the fun so to speak.
Like when someone's watching a cutscene and they respond "this is going to get (insert expression), and fully expectant of engagement afterward. As if to prime the participant. Is very important in many arts, and very primary in Game Development. You're Developing self, a game, authoring, and directing. So get ready to wear many hats.
*I'll never be an actual developer but I've been working on a game concept to package and sell for about 10 years now. studying game writing, watching how gaming has progressed as a whole. I have about 10 different ideas I'm cramming into one multi-genre game....but admittedly, my biggest struggle has been figuring out how to give a single player game unlimited replay value* 🤔
You know no one buys ideas unless they have a playable demo, how long until you have one?
I believe game dev should be a side project not something to consume ur life
tell that to someone with a cozy WFH white collar job, bruh, these tech layoffs got hands
"3As are in a harsh time now" is such a hard to swallow pill to some people, we need to keep distance from 3As for a few years to make the money dementors leave and let artists and passionate people get back the creative control of big projects
I didnt need my dream game to make me fail. Flappy Bird already did that lol
Id like to offer a slight nuance to your take on devlogs. I think we need to acknowledge that the ladscape of marketing has shifted since 2017 when a devlog could get half a million views. If marketing is the goal developers need to explore new ways of doing devlogs and i think breaking them up into short form content for Tiktok and shorts will be the way the next generation of indie game influencers will be born. Old school long form devlogs will always have a role but I think those are now to inform the most engaged audience you have.
I'm a beginner in gamedev , I want to make a game as my final year project , I know that it's gonna be hard but I need to do it , is it possible? Can anyone help me out !
Also a relative beginner here; i made a prototype of an FPS game (not a great one mind you, an ok one) in a relatively short period of time. two things i'd recommend is 1. make use of tutorials, but make sure you're actually learning and understanding what ur doing. trust, it'll save u a lot of time in the long run and 2. break the game down into tasks, and those tasks into mini tasks, and those mini tasks into even smaller microtasks. put them in a spreadsheet or something. and then focus on, find tutorials for, etc. those microtasks, specifically the ones that are ESSENTIAL for your game to work
nothing wrong with being ambitious with your project, but be ready to , in the middle of your project, realize "this isn't working, I don't have enough time to do all these". and then re-plan what you plan to achieve, if that makes sense
@@nonexistent101_ thanks a lot bro 💝
@@Dkfire_1977 yw you got this 🔥
game dev world is very gatekeepy. i'll take my own personal advice from my own personal research playing games for the past decade as a variety game streamer. i make celeste mods.. there will never ever be a game come even close to this kind of gameplay.. yea it came out of nowhere. but that will never be matched again. period lolol.. waste of time to even try.. 2d platformers are a real hit or miss. i know cuz i play all of them. even some really good ones who deserve attention just don't get the sales they deserve... 2d gaming is very hmm how do i say it.. "fan based oriented" like fandoms.. obsessions with one or 2 games and dont' play anything else.. don't even give other games a chance... this is facts. some ppl do like me i play a lot of games. but most 2d platformer gamers are set and wont' try new games.. so yea it's a real hit and miss genre.. creative mini games do really well now if you come up with the right idea. Balatro for example or Gnorp apologue., or Suika game
About hooks:
- overwhelming quality IS a hook. Hollow Knight was the FIRST to be that good across every dimension of its offering. No previous metroidvania had the combination of masterful art, content, challenge, fluidity, theme, etc.
- so, yes, you do need a hook. Just so happens that people are mislead by the examples they cite, because they commonly cite the examples whose hook is... overwhelming quality.
Disagree with a lot of this, but i still like the video and how you presenting your points!
Good Advice, LT.
fire bro 🔥
Hello Really nice video you are my number one of dev content thank you
Why are they called Sasquatch B?
First
massive dislike
#3 I love tutorial hell 😊, and document raiding. Some of my favorite forms of research. Here I am watching tutorials on tutorials 😂.
#2 Genre choice when starting out is going to be a matter of playing to uour strengths, unlike building your dream game. This is a matter of getting a feel for development generally, game engine, prototype U.I., character builds, ect. It's often a first and frustrating choice for most devs. It doesn't have to be. Likely your strengths are in what you played, and is going to appeal to those of the same taste. So working with your strengths is key on this step, as far as making progress, and appealing to already made fans of said genre.
I see you enjoy ThinMatrix. Excellent taste!
#5 Devlogs are the least useful, and most time consuming of the types of research you can do, absolutely correct. If following the project type of devlog can have sturdy utility in learning, but less so on the development side, coming later on personal projects. I actually think many of the said issues # 1 - 4, can be alleviated by devlogs. Simply by focusing on knowledge bases of gaming development, and the most lacking part I see in indie development, is teams. Especially if the indie community at large intends to continue to compete with triple AAA, or even continue to meet, or exceed their standards. They aren't sitting still, though most of their efforts have been costing them dearly, throughout the gaming world, from backend products to develop games, to front end fully polished products that are as of late flopping on their faces on arrival. Which is great news for indie developers. Being an opportunity to reset the standard, and not excluding traditional standards altogether, being many are implemented today, and good standards for points of research. Learning how something use to work and why, does wonders for understanding the modern derivatives and how and why they've changed. Not all that much I'd argue, art is art, authoring stories still the same, programming/coding, or whatever is fundamentally not only used in similar manner as older counterparts, but exactly for the same purpose. So try not to let it overwhelm, as we have it good compared to those that had no API, and built them from scratch inside potatoes 😊.