Flat tops and Arch-tops a comparison.
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- čas přidán 24. 05. 2022
- Hi,
This is my personal view of how these two types of guitars developed, mostly in the earl;y 20th century, and mostly, but not entirely in the USA.
My apologies for my poor playing - I never was much good at jazz styles and it's been a long time!
Instruments used :
Collings DS1
Gibson L-4 (1935 model)
Eastman E20-P
Lebeda F-5 Premium mandolin. - Hudba
Very informative Andy, I thought I knew quite a bit about the various types of guitar, having had many different guitars over my 70yrs, but thanks to your video I now realise I didn’t. You are an encyclopaedia of knowledge relating to the guitar and you explain it in a very understandable fashion. Great to see your fingers in action once again. Thanks Andy.
Hi Gerry, thanks for your kind words. I confess to being a nerd about these things, and I truly find the way that the guitar evolved dramatically in the early 20th century. Thanks for watching.
Lloyd Loar transfered the arch top & backs design from violin , including f holes, to the guitar in 1922/1923. L5. While working for Gibson. Lloyd Loar is the Man
Yes, Gibson's original notion though. I think that there were some earlier arched topped instruments, esp. the mandolins. Thanks for watching.
D'Angelico was a violin maker before he started making Archtops, after seeing a Gibson L (Loar) guitar. It is believed John D'Angelico was the first guitar maker to use cross bracing. Before Gibson/Loar, the viola de pardon was pretty much an arch top guitar built during the hundred years war
No, that is not correct. Orville Gibson patented an archtop mandolin in the 1890s and added a similar guitar as an afterthought. The early Gibson models had round soundholes but were still archtop mandolins and guitars. If you look at the classic picture of Robert Johnson, you can see one of them (an L-1 if I remember right). What Lloyd Loar did, was add the f holes.
Loar also made the F/H/K/L-5 series instruments much louder than other guitars and mandos but that was an accident. You see, Loar also worked for another company, Virci, who had patented the "Virci Tone Enhancer" - a kind of a metal box you put inside the instrument under the soundholes. As the name says, it was supposed to increase the tone of the instrument but what it actually did, was exactly the opposite. Loar wanted to sell this to Gibson and to do so, he had to design instrument with far more resonance than regular mandolins and guitars to compensate for the sound killer he put inside them.
The L-5 as Gibson originally made it wasn't a particularly powerful guitar at all and even musicians who were sponsored by the company refused to switch from the L-4 to the L-5. But then some genius guitarist figured out that if he ripped out that "tone enhancer", he finally had a guitar that could actually be heard through a noisy jazz/swing band. That's how the archtop guitar as we know it today was born.
@@franknordbergno That was eloquent, concise, and to the point - thank you for clarifying this issue which obsesses some of us!
Loved the history lesson, great content, thank you for taking the time to share with us.
Glad you enjoyed it. Thanks for watching.
Looks and sounds like your surgery was a brilliant success! Glad to have you back!
Hi Joel, Yes almost a month and doing the prescribed exercises, I realised yesterday that my fingers were doing what I wanted. Still, I wish I could do credit to the archtop though!
Great video on the history of these two types of guitars. I played an archtop exclusively for a year. After going back to one of my flat top instruments, I loved the color and sustain so much I sold my archtop instrument.
Hi Bill, yes, both have their qualities - but flat tops have that ruondness and sustain. Thanks for watching.
Howdy howdy. Thanks for the information on history and the sound comparison. The topic of arch top vs flat top perpetually fascinates me to no end.
Hi Jerrel, thanks for watching.
so glad you are back and playing! thank you for sharing your knowledge as always - you really are making a tremendous difference in the acoustic community. all the best
Gosh thanks Paul, do you mean here or on "A" guitar forum?
@@SillyMoustache both places, of course.
@@paulrich6307 Thankyou Paul, when they keep banning me and give me "last warnings" I wonder why they dislike me so on "that" forum.
@@SillyMoustache that is ridiculous. The topics on that forum are innocuous so I really can't understand why there would be anything controversial. I am a relatively new participant to the forum. I sense that there are about 20 questions/topics and they just get reposted over and over by new people.
So interesting and informative. Thank you!
Glad it was helpful!
Fantastic lesson Andy. I read an AGF post today about arch tops. It got me interested enough to watch a CZcams video and there you are. Very good history lesson.
Hi Ken, I'm glad you found it useful.
Get one. They sound great. Even the low end harmony/Kay/silvertone archtop have a usable sound. And wildly different than flat tops.
I'm 70 and have been driving people mad with electric guitars since the 1960s but have recently experienced an epiphany. A Canadian fellow JP Cormier made a video called Inspired by Gibson or better than Gibson referring to Epiphone acoustic guitars and I was hooked. I've since packed my expensive Fenders, G&L, Gibson away and have been building a stable of acoustics which includes a Dobro a Hummingbird a Sigma GJA-SG200 and next is an arch top acoustic. Your video has created an interest in parlor guitars and other smaller guitars, it's a whole new world of guitars for me.
Well Felix, if I have helped your enjoyment of guitars, then my work is done! Thanks for watching!
You are a wealth of information. Thanks for the video. George in Montana
Thanks George, thanks for watching!
Thanks! Really enjoyed this interesting & informative video!
Hi Steve, glad you enjoyed it!
Majestic mustache! Thank you for the informative video. I am pleased to subscribe🙂
Thanks, you are most welcome. Please browse my other videos, your comments are always welcomed and read, best, Andy
What an amazing collection of guitars you have!!...impressive to say the least!!...
Hi Mains, Thank you, but please note I assembled this "collection" (wasn't meant to be one), from 1998, until 2020 which means considerably less that one per year, and all but three were bought used, and for far less than they would cost now. Thanks for watching.
Cool Historical run down on Guitars and Mandolins and you even touched Banjos. Enjoyed 👍 nice instruments you have surrounding you too!🇺🇸
Thank you for watching.
I enjoy your history lessons. Thanks.
Glad you like them!
Hi Andy. Glad your hand is healing well. Great bit of Mando playing, haven't seen you do that before.
PS. I started to watch this with the auto subtitles on, they gave you a "Martian" guitar!
Hi Jon, yes , yesterday was the first day sice the op that I realised that my fingers were doing what I wanted them to do. Just about a month! Hope you are doing OK.
Very interesting. Thank you for your content
Most welcome!
Really interesting video thank you for making it.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Excellent video
Thank you Greg! Thanks for watching.
Great short history lesson, thank you!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Great content creator ❤️ Good quality ❤️ watching from georgia with pleasure 🇬🇪❤️
Thanks for watching!
FASCINATING! So good to see you with no bandages on your hands and as always, your presentation is so informative. Thank you so much!!!
I enjoyed this presentation and all the information so much, I copied and printed out the transcript. Also, very much trying to squish down the HUGE desire for Gibson arch top...
Hi Kathi, Thank you for your interest, it is now almost two months on from the operation, and today I had my last "occupational therapy" appointments and we agreed that the hand is almost back to 100%. I iuntend to make a video of the/my storyline soon. I'm so glad that you found my comparison and back ground of the flat and archtops of interest. Regards, Ol' Andy
@@kathie8842 Gosh really ? My ewhole "script"? Well, let me know if I've left anything out. What do you intend to do with it?
@@SillyMoustache I intend to read it, and keep with my guitars because you gave lots of interesting history in this video! I really learned a lot and enjoyed the whole video. but oh, those beautiful guitars! They sound so beautiful...
Hi again, thanks for this, appreciated. I'm a total acoustic guitar nerd so if yuo need more info - just ask - if I don't know .. I have a BIG guitar book collection! Best, A.
Excellent Video! Nice Music History Lesson!!! : )
Thank you.
So glad someone had the blues and paved the way for Rock
I guess!
In sweden archtops are generally referred to as orchestra guitars. I own a Levin one from 1950, beautiful thing. Interesting video!
Hej, Max, That is interesting, and logical, and also reltes to the 1929 Martin "OM" being launched to compete in tis area as he "Orchestra Model". I was reminded by a frind recently that back in the '60s in the UK they were also called "Cello" guitars. Thanks for watching and for your input.
Good summary. 👍
Glad you think so! Thanks
Thank you for the informative video. I appreciate the explanation of the history and evolution of the instrument, but I'm also curious about the difference in how they sound.
I will try to make a comparison video soon. Thanks for watching.
Thank you very much for the short trip in the history of acoustic/ archtop guitars. My dad had a defil (i think these were made in Poland or Czech Republik) carved top but it had like an very big neck, really small frets and It was awful to play compared to my electric and acoustic guitars I am playing so far. (all of them lower to mid price range). I sold that archtop a some years ago but I am still searching for an old german archtop guitar like a framus for a good price as I liked the shape and sound of archtop guitars. Even though I am more a Metal and Rock influenced guitar player. But with the last cover of "that's how I learned to play the blues" from you I was catched to try that one and It really catched me so far. Thank you very much for your interesting videos and greetings from Germany 🙂!
Vielen Dank für Ihre freundlichen Worte.
In einem leider lange umstrittenen Gebiet an der deutsch-tschechischen Grenze, das manchmal als Sudanland bezeichnet wird, gab es eine sehr wichtige Musikinstrumententradition - eine Geschichte, die ich erforschen und bekannter machen möchte. Kennen Sie die Geschichte?
Viele Grüße und danke fürs Zuschauen.
@@SillyMoustache Nein davon wusste ich bis dato noch nichts aber es würde mich freuen mehr darüber zu erfahren.
You did a very good job .
Thank you sir. I'm glad you approve!
I live in Bristol Tennessee where Ralph Peer came in 1927 and recorded the Carter family and Jimmy Rogers in what is known as the Bristol Sessions. It was the first country ever recorded. They were more than the Carter's and Rogers that recorded those three days . Thanks Andy I love slot heads and Archtops . I have a 000 15 sm Martin that I play . Good video Andy .
Hi Duane, I recently saw Bill and the Belles and chatted for some time with Kris Truelson. He seemed Surprised that an old Englishman knew of the history of the Bristol Sessions, To be fair I have long ago read "Will You Miss Me When I'm Gone" (Zwonitzer & Hirshberg) - a Carter family and their legacy in American music.
Hello Andy !
It was not a surprise to me that you know of the Bristol Sessions . You are a very well informed Gentleman. I know because I watch all of your videos! Andy I just traded my slot head 000 15 Martin for a brand new Loar 600 and am now getting used to it. I enjoy your video very much and am looking for new ones.
Andy have a good day my friend .
I did learned guitar on a flat top guitar but, eventually, my grandfather gave me an Silvertone Aristocrat that was... a wallhanger... the top was totally broken in different places... it needed a neck reset... Well a full job... So being a cabinet worker I did remade it totally. The beauty in it is that I did set the neck perfectly and it play perfectly. I use it a lot and it sound really different. It have a ''thin'' jazzy sound. It's a total different animal but it got it's guts and sometime nothing else do the job. I'm irrelevant to add a pickup or two on it and destroy the top. I think it's... useless. Acoustic guitars are made for acoustic times and electrics for amplifier times. I can't see this in any other way It's just what it is made for.
Well done ! I agree about keeping it as an acoustic. My heart drops when I see an acoustic archtop with a pick-up screwed to a perfectly good top.
Nicely done. I always found it interesting that bluegrass music adopted the flat-top instead of the arch-top, given that the fiddle, bass, and mandolin are all arch-tops. I'm sure that's why the guitar came late to the melody role in that music, although the texture of the flat-top in that genre does blend differently than an arch-top would.
Hi Jeff, interesting subject. Bluegrass was a development of what we now call "old-time" or string band - essentially fiddle and banjos. cheap flat-tops could be obtained mailorder, archtops , probably less so. "flat-picking probably evolved from the "Carter-Scratch" - effectively "frailing" which Maybelle did on a Gibson L-5 !! - Maybe there is a video in this ???
Love your videos, and love those guitars!
Hi, thank you, and thanks for watching.
I enjoyed your engaging ramble down the history of the guitar. Your Eastman acoustics come across as lovely sounding instruments. I’ve played a D35 since 2010 and I am now tempted to try an OM - not so sure about the 12 fret - is there a significant difference in tone from 12 to 14 fret?
Hi Kenny, and thanks for watching. I also played a D35 -my main guitar for 21 years. It was ans still is a particularly fine example. Many people love the OM and if that size fretboard suits your style and your hands why not? It is 3/4" thinner and 5/8 less wide at lower bout. A quick look through Martin's site indicates that thy only make an OM42 or an OM John Mayer with the thin rhythm neck and string spacing. I'm at a loss to understand Martin's logic nowadays.
Great introduction, maybe another video that focuses on the difference in sound, in my option when you play an individual note on an archtop there is more definition. Not sure if you've watched Ken Parker's videos but I agree with him that the archtop is very versatile maybe more so than a round sound hole guitar which to my ear tends to blend the notes a bit more which also can be an advantage at times.
Hi, yes I have watched some of Ken's "archtoppery". Whilst you can play any style on any guitar, I do believe that archtops are best played in the styles that made them so succesful. Thanks for watching.
Thanks so much for the super informative video. Just came back to the guitar after 35 years. Have an arch top five bananas and 69 harmony page 165 and I’m restoring. It’s a medium body all mahogany solid. Can’t wait to see if I can make some Nick Drake sounds with it! I need a classical, too.
Five Bananas ??? Is that like my Harmony?
@@SillyMoustache Lol! Voice to text. I meant “Ibanez,” but I think I’m gonna stay with “five bananas” now, just for fun. Maybe it fits with a Bossanova theme? (E.g., Carmen Miranda).
@@SillyMoustache and the Harmony is an H-165 from 1969, all mahogany with a solid top. Getting some much-needed surgery but hopefully it’ll give me that sound.
@@pneumaticman5927 Ah, I understand! I really like 5 bananas too!
I have a loar 300 and if I go to a jam people always comment how loud it is. It seems to me that the difference between flattop and Archtop is, flattop acts more like a bellows whereas an archtop is more like a drum. If you record the two as I have. The flattop has a lot more overtones whereas the archtop has fewer but the fundamentals are stronger. Up close a flattop can sound as loud or louder than an archtop but further away the archtop wins. Great vid love your paying.
Hi, I tend to agree. The Archtop guitar, (and also mandolin) as developed by Gibson was to make them physically stronger, and louder than traditional/classical designs. Whilst not originally designed as a rhythm guitar, the archtops percussive projection became the "weapon of choice" for Swing bands, replacing the banjo of the New Orleans style. The archtop does not have as strong a bass but accentuates the middle and treble but is warmer and more subtle than the tenor banjo it effectively replaced. The flat top was an evolution of the classical guitar originally about playing melodies with fingerstyle. Whist it could and did get used as a rhythm instrument in some dance bands its strength and wider tonal palette became popular for string bands, which begat bluegrass which begat country etc. I'll be making a video about my archtops soon where I'll be discussing this. Thanks for watching.
@SillyMoustache that is a quite interesting bit of history!
Thank you for your charming videos and presentation. Have you used or have you ever considered using flat wound strings on your arch-top guitars?
Hi Drust, no I haven't. My archtops are all acoustic so flat wound would sound very dull.
Great thank you 🌟😊👍
You are so welcome!
No worries your a very good musician great instruments also🌟😀👍
Horse's for course's
@@garymcnaughton2338 Absolutely Gary..
On my two Martins, when I felt the need to amp up, I have used a Dean Markey sound hole pick up with a Pignose amp and it works great for small audiences
Really? OK. Wondering why you need amplification for a small audience.
@@SillyMoustache These were outdoor events in open spaces and I was finger picking. Since I don't have finger nails and have to use my finger tips, and I never was able to use finger picks, I had to amp up for the audience to hear me.
Cheers Andy, glad to see your looking well. Is the Gibson a L-7, or L-11 or something else?
Hi Ken, It is an L-4 - built in 1934 but it is a '35 pec, but almost identical to an L-7. Gibson tended to be variable with things like inlays, pick-guards and tailpieces. Thanks for watching. ,
Very enjoyable and informative! How about the advent of 4-string tenor guitars, which I believe helped fill the needs of banjo players?
Yes, te tenor guitar was effectively te illegitimate child of the banjo and guitar, but never had the power of projection of the 6 string archtop.
Hi again Andy, Don here from Hamilton NZ ( on my Wife's I/ pad ( and you guessed it She's Susan) l loved your comparison- flat- top ^ arch-top guitars, with a mandolin thrown in too. A good bit of history too, well here's my thoughts, I first started with a Yamaha Dynamic acoustic( steel strings) and after a few years started playing with a friend who played an arch-top I think it was a hofner or a framus ( mid-60's) it had a thick neck if I remember correctly so it was probably a hofner.And I remember thinking what a different sound ( more mellow) even with new strings and it simply didn't sound quite as good eg.tone- wise as my simple Yamaha and yet it would have cost 5 or 6 times more than mine. It didn't have the briteness of the Yamaha or 'twang', and with old strings it was quite simply pathetic, and around the same time I had a play on another similar style guitar, a Framus, beautiful looking instruments but manifesting very similar characteristics, where-as my guitar, not as good looking as the other two obviously but to my ear capable of a britter sound if needed ( strum close to the bridge ) So therefore I stayed with the flat- top concept, because strumming down by end of the neck there's your rhythm sound or up by the bridge your brite sound. It became as simple as th- at.The flat- top outperforms the arch-top, but that's only my opinion,and a few days ago I bought a second Martin electro- acoustic,it's one of the cheaper ones, an X/ Series Dreadnought and I restrung it phosphor/bronze 12's and What a Sound, absolutely beautiful.I copared to my other Martin, made in the late 80's I think, I restrung it 2 weeks ago with ph/ brz 11's and it was almost as nice( given I'd put 11's on it I had to give it some concessions) Just my thoughts Andy, but take care, and till next time - over'n' out h of a 7
Hi Don, it should be remembered that despite Martin's attempts to make an orchestral model in 1929-33, the flt tops and the archtop were designed for very different purposes. See ya later! Andy
@@SillyMoustache Thanks Andy,yes I appreciate that, but just keeping it simple ,eg - FL- tops arch-tops with or without cutaways and parlor guitars too, the flat-top has a greater flexibility in sound, probably because of its bracing, eg.flatops allow for a much thinner sound-board and perhaps to shape of its sound hole as against the f/ shape. But keep it up my friend I love learning from you, regds Don
Great video, sir I’d be interested in what you think of the Gibson J 200 studio rosewood Guitar which is the size of a J 200 standard but has a 4 inch deep body instead of 4.75 it makes the sound more focused I guess, but I’d be interested in your thoughts. Cheers Alex
Hi Alex, I'm not a dealer or a Gibson user, and I'm afraid that SJ guitars aren't my preference so I couldn't comment unless I encountered one. Off hand I'd say the deeper the better.
Hi Andy,
That was a good explanation of flattop and archtop guitars. But, the archtop guitars with pickups have a different tone than a solid body electric. The pickups do diminish some the acoustic quality, but not all of it. Some of the acoustic qualities effect the sound of the instrument. For example, when you listen to to Wes Montgomery play a Gibson electric L-5, the tone is very different from a solid body electric. The feel of a hollow body electric is very different as well. The instrument vibrates more and you can feel it as you play. A properly designed and built electric archtop has it’s own sound.
Hi Roland, I've seen so many fine acoustic archtops ruined by people trying to screww pick-ups to the top. The resonance of the top simply causes feedback. There are two options - 1. the "floating" p/up suspended above the top and secured by screws into the side of the fretboard. This "can" work, if absolutely necessary.
2. to turn a real archtop into an electric, the resonance of the top has to be eradicated. This is accomplished by gluing, effectively, a fence post to the underside of the top. This stops it being a real archtop.
I would love to hear about your resonators whenever you decide to share with us.
Hi John, I have done videos on all my instruments, including my two resos. Here is one on my Dobro : czcams.com/video/88COuktQyPo/video.html
and here is one no my National : czcams.com/video/TtSvpw3-2Fw/video.html I'm happy to answer any questions you my have. Regards, Andy
I’ve got both a flat top and an arch top my arch top is an old harmony which it’s probably just a cheaper guitar but I like the sound of it and I also like the sound of the flat top then I’ve got a classical guitar I like the sound of all of them I think they’re can be played with different styles of music
Hi John, I have a '60s Harmony archtop too. See: czcams.com/video/jTxDvCe3aZ4/video.html
Fine guitar! thanks for watching.
Love both the Arch Top and the Flat Top Acoustics.
Great History on the use and development of each type of guitar.
What do you consider the sonic differences between the Arch Top and Flat Top Acoustic Guitars?
Both have very different characteristics from each other, some might say they are more like "Step-Siblings", YES?
Thanks for the content, count me as a new subscriber.
Hi, did I not discuss that ? maybe not. The flat top has a larger dynamic, giving a wider tonal spectrum - more bass and potentially "rounder" trebles, whereas the more middle focussed archtop has a greater ability to project and "cut through" brass and woodwind. As an ex drummer, I sometimes liken the "comping" style performed on archtops as , effectively, tuned percussion - focussing mainly on the 3rd and 4th string working closely with the bass player, but if played alone it can sound a little "thin".
Hope that helps
@@SillyMoustache Thank You, your reply/explanation is very much appreciated.
In the development of the guitar from jazz tenor banjoists, another intermediate step that you overlooked a bit was the tenor guitar, which Gibson offered and was very popular in an arch top, also keeping the more orchestral tuning in fifths. As pure guitar players emerged, instead of just banjo players who switched to guitar, we see the six string arch top taking over in the jazz bands
Good point. Thanks.
I think that you got it pretty right especially when it comes to using a good microphone in front of a flat top. I've heard arch tops that sound as good as.flat tops but over the internet so some type of enhancement could have sneaked in there.
Archtops and flat tops are designed for different jobs. Some dislike the archtop sound because they believe that they lack bass -which was never their purpose. I think that modern "ears" are habituated on too much bass. See : czcams.com/video/WpBXwnfcVq0/video.html
I love Loar archtop guitar acoustic and Electric with flatwound strings!
Patrick jay Lutier
Hi Patrick, I had two Loars but I couldn't get on with them. Horses for courses I guess.
Andy, beautiful video!!!! But I did not fully understand the need to move from the flat top to the archtop. Matter of sound tastes? For the melodic lines, more pronounced in the archtops? Thinking of purely acoustic instruments, without pickups, don't the flat tops seem to have greater volumes? Thank you!!! Paolo.
Hi Paolo, firstly, I didn't move "from" flat tops to archtops as you will see n my later videos, it was just a wish to investigate archtops, adding to my guitar collection, but to experience the qualities of archtops and the types of music that they suit - jazz, American songbook, western swing. I neither planned to acquire three (!) nor achieved much in those styles. In comparison with flt tops which have warmer rounder tone with more bass, the archtop has more projection, less bass, but a sound that just "sounds" right for the above music styles. Check out Whit Smith playing : czcams.com/video/D_8Sa3gf7B8/video.html
@@SillyMoustache yes, now I understand better !!! Yes, the sound projection is very different !!! Grazie!!!!!
Hello Andy, it’s great to learn something about the difference of these two types of guitar. I have a question about ES175. Does Gibson make it all laminated wood for lower the cost or the feedback issue? Anyway it sounds good, as good as an L5 which is all solid wood made archtop. Thank you for the info and opinion
Hi, when it comes to electric guitars, I am NOT an expert, however I'm aware of the ES175. There are three types of "archtop" guitars. The original acoustics, then the same that had a "floating" pickup installed not touching the or interfering with the resonance of the top. (e.g the famous "Monkey on a stick" type). Then we got guitars that "look-like" archtops but are made to minimise acoustic resonance by having laminated tops re-enforced with heavy bracing onto which one or more pickups were physically screwed to the top. Starting with the ES150 in, I think, 1938.
The tops won't be carved but pressed and with minimal resonance. In my humble they resemble but aren't real archtops.
@@SillyMoustache So ES175 is something between archtop and electric guitar. It's true what you've said in the video that if they put a block under the pickup, for example ES335, it turns to be an archtop-like electric guitar.
@@fer7068 No, it's an electric guitar, which resembles an archtop.
I just bought my first Arch Top, well actually, I do have a Gibson ES 335 Dot '57 Reissue. Bit I bought a Gordon King Pin 2 with the Cutaway and P90 Pickups.. Have not received it yet but it's made in Quebec Canada and I liked the Price Point, did not feel like spending thousands like i did with my National Resonators and Gibson's, Fenders, Martins.. But my question is.. What brand and model of guitar is that you last picked up, the small body one.. I see it has a wide fretboard, which I love.. Might have to purchase one of those someday!!!! Thank you for the great content!!! : ) Keep on Rockin'!!!! ; )
Hi, like with dreadnoughts and jumbos there is much confusion between acoustic archtops and electric guitars with the internal resonance post to takes p/ups screwed on. As you see, I'm strictly acoustic. The small bodied 12 fret is an Eastman E20-P. Thanks for watching.
Great sounding guitars and information. I am thinking about an arch top, but it would need an amplifier or PA, and suddenly not transportable by bicycle or (in this town) bus. Taxis not yet available due to COVID. I know I sing/sound differently with different guitars. (One of the employees had to look yesterday because she thought someone else was singing/playing. It was just me after I changed from a Martin CEO-7 to Eastman E20ss-V-sb (their version of a J45). Do you have an opinion on an Eastman all wood version of that Gibson?
Hi Tex - why would an archtop need an amp or PA any more thasn a flat top?
Please watch my comments at the end of this video.
@@SillyMoustache I currently do not sing with a microphone: there isn't a PA in memory care unit. I can sing and play to a group from 3 to 40 in a living room area (16'x35' or 5x10 meters or so) with a mask on. No electronics. O guess I haven't played an arch top that is sufficiently loud.
I also prefer micing the guitar, which has many challenges live. I'm thinking of getting an archtop or resonator guitar so that it's louder in a live setting. The problem is that I want a single guitar that's good for early jazz quarter note rhythm, strumming and finger picking with metal picks... how well would an archtop handle metal finger picks?
Resonator guitars were originally designed to give rhythm players in swing bands more projection than archtops. they did, but the players found them too heavy, and went back to archtops, then electrics came along - which is why the poor country blues players managed to pick up resonators cheap. Archtops are essentially rhythm guitars, so string spacing is narrow (designed for tenor banjo players) so not sure how easy they'd be for fingerstyle.
The Bristol Sessions in Bristol, Virginia 1927. The Birthplace of Country Music.
Well, I'm pretty sure that "country" music was alive and well before then, but far less cmm3ercialised until Ralph Peer's auditions found the Carter family and Jimmie Rodgers and made them "stars", so yes it was an important landmark.
I believe the arch top allow for more voicing of the players style. Although a flat top maybe louder. I’d personally love to own a arch top. Currently their not even close to a hand built 30’s arch top. The old growth trees have been used up for habitat. Yet are the best for any wood instrument. That’s is only a part of say Stradivarius violas. The old slow growth of trees used also the treatments that Stradivarius used before any varnish or oils or both. Main factor was the old slow growth woods used. So a very great arch top of the hand built of 20’s-30’s sound so unreal, so beautiful, they are just out of my financial budget.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
Have two electric arch tops, a Baldwin 12 string electric made in Italy. Made in the Early Seventies A 6 string Lyle made in Japan about mid sixties . Both are beautiful full and made with the highest quality materials and workmanship. Better than a new $5000 Gibson my opinion. The stunning jangle of the 12 string will knock your socks off.
Are archtops louder or does the attack have more transients to make the rhythm more prominent?
Hi, IMHO, it's not so much the "loudness" but the projection. Archtops are/were more succesful in the rhythm section of big bands, whereas the flat tops tyend to have a wider tonality.
Much prefer the sound of the flat top🌟😊👍
That's fine but they are effectively different instruments for differing tasks. A dreadnought wouldn't cut the mustard comping in a big band, but and archtop isn't ideal in a small folk combo.
both guitars are exellent !only slightly different but its ok
Thanks for watching.
Is that a Lebeda F5 mandolin? Sounds nice.
'tis indeed. F5 Premium built in ... 2005.
Hello is it normal for a dreadnought to have small arch on the back and on the top
Mostly, yes, I'm not sure of all specs, but in my experience most flat tops have a slight arch in the back - probably to add strength. The flat tops are also rarely totally flat. for similar reasons.
What strings are you using on your L5. Thanks
Hi, it isn't an L5 (I wish) it is an L4 (or L-7). I use D'addario Nickel Bronze mediums.
i like flat-wound string on my archtops 🥺💖
i have a couple of HEAVY played 1950s kay guitars - still going strong and actually in use (detuned open tunings)
That's cool.
Interesting video! Pity you didn't really play or even name the archtop, and you probably tread on the toes of about the other half of the flattop-playing population by not mentioning Taylor ;) I'll agree with one of your statements in the comments that many *later* archtops are best played in styles for/to which they evolved, but I don't believe that Gibson, Loar et al. developed the design with those particular styles in mind. I've heard the Loar L5 described as extremely versatile and genre-defying, and I can concur with claims that they have sonic qualities that are reminiscent of those of a good classical guitar (minus the boominess). At this point in my own evolution as a guitar player I think they're limited mostly by their use of steel strings which IMHO are inherently less versatile than composite strings.
Hi, pity you didn't read the details in the description.
I don't see that Taylor have any relevance to this video nor any other make that emerged way after the period to which I refer.
At no point did I say that Gibson made archtops for any particular style, nor even Martin, apart from the post 1930 and '34 OMs. (modified 000 and D).
Anyway, thanks for watching.
The claim that steel string guitars are louder than gut (nylon, etc) string guitars requires some qualification that is worth examining.
Steel string instruments are capable of delivering higher volumes, this is readily demonstrable. The higher power output of such instruments is due to a steel strung instrument's ability to handle and transfer (be driven by) excitation sources of higher energy and convert it to useful sound. That is, the steel strings can be struck or plucked harder than is possible with a gut strung instrument before the instrument distorts the sound or it reaches its output limit.. Therefore the steel strung instrument is capable of transferring more average and peak input energy to the top, resulting in higher perceived output if that ability is exploited.
This maximum output limitation does not however reflect relative efficiencies (and correlated sensitivity) of the two construction types.
Any flamenco or classical guitarist will confirm that gut instruments are both louder and more responsive when played with the excitation levels of standard finger plucking techniques (and without artificial finger-picks) than a steel strung guitar will deliver using the same techniques. Thus to these players steel string instruments generally present themselves as quieter (in volume) and less responsive in terms of tone and sensitivity.
To get the most and best out of each type requires each to be played with appropriate technique, otherwise the comparable results may surprise you.
Hi, thank you for this. As late as the 1924 Martin catalogue, (and possibly up until 1929/30, Martin offered their Standard (size1)and style 17 (all mahogany) and 18, spruce/mahogany, with steel strings but would supply all models for gut strings upon request.
Martin did not (to my knowledge) make European classical fan braced styles in the 20th century (excepting the short lived style that a certain Mr Nelson is known to play).
I did not say that all guy/nylon strung guitars were quiet, especially when played appropriately, but steel was considered more reliable and as the task of the guitar changed from fingerstyle melody to rhythm -the steel strung version was more practicable. Gut strung guitars were less than ideal in combos, bands, and orchestras.
Very interesting Andy but you haven't mentioned Epiphone who were making Archtops long before Gibson and
were better Quality, until Gibson bought them out and made them make inferior products
👍
Hi John, Gibson first made archtop guitars in 1902.I believe that the Epiphone company introduced their first guitars in 1928. I know tat early epi archtops were/are highly regarded, and were widely uses in dance bands. thanks for watching.
I associate flat top guitars with Gibson and archtop guitars with Gibson 😆
Surely Orville Gibson developed the archtop guitar based on the violin structure. Martin redeveloped the European flat top guitar with the X-bracing method. Gibson followed on with flat tops in 1926. Martin had been making flat tops for nearly 100 years by then.
Only a Gibson is good enough
Thanks for watching.
I agree acoustic guitars shouldn't be amplified when it is possible not to ....piezos sound terrible I prefer magnetic soundhole pickups but most of all microphones , and by golly get used to playing acoustic with 12ths strings not 11ths or 10ths
Hi, one came to me with a K&K unit installed, and I had the basic K&K fitted in one of my 12 strings. I can't remember the last time I used them.