Ep 142 Huge 840Ah Lithium Battery Upgrade for Talisman
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- čas přidán 26. 08. 2024
- 2022 was probably the year we did the biggest upgrades to the boat. We added air conditioning, replaced the standing rigging, replaced our galley countertops and gimballing stove, bought a new dinghy, and of course upgraded the battery bank.
For Talisman, this was a huge upgrade. Not only do these batteries hold their charge better than our old Trojan gel batteries, but the rated amp hours went from 280Ah to 840Ah. We have so much extra capacity that it’s nothing short of amazing. And it all fits in the same battery box! Lots of learning here.
sailing yacht talisman, sailing, sailing youtube, boating, top sailing, oyster yachts, oyster sailboats, oyster 485, offshore, bluewater, blue water, sailing vlog, sailing vblog, sailing channels, sailing videos, cruising, monohull, EVE batteries, LifePo4, LFP, installing marine lithium batteries, Daly BMS
![WATCH THIS before installing lithium batteries on your sailboat ⚡ [RYAN'S TECH CORNER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/vraRhNpEWcE/mqdefault.jpg)
One of the best channels to see how things SHOULD be done without hiding how they may have strayed a bit..👍 Ventos justos e mar calmo ⛵
Thanks Tom. We try to be real with things. Not everything goes according to plan.
Kevin, this is an excellent tip confirming the balance wires are correct. You can never test enough when doing this kind of installation. Cheers.
Thanks Sgt. Great to hear from you again.
Really good to see a new video from you.
Glad to see you didn't accidently build an arc welder!
I almost did when I blew that fuse. The power in these things is impressive.
Well done young man (and Wendy!). No doubt lithium just transforms how you get and store power on a boat. Game changer.
True game changer to be sure. Very happy.
Nice work Kevin, I am doing a lot of upgrades on my Gozzard right now down in St Thomas. My two banks of flooded are still solid and I ma looking at goinf your way when I bring her back up in May. Thanks for the overview
No worries Dan. Sorry for the late reply.
Nice to see another video from you both.👍 There was so much detail in that video I really do have to watch it again (my depleted grey cells). I really felt for you as you were ‘melting’ sorting that lot out. Great team.😀👍⛵️
Thanks Norman. It was a wild ride.
Well done, Kevin & Wendy - Both from a practical as well as an informative prospective. Always enjoy your productions!
Thanks Rick. Appreciate the support!
Thank you so much for sharing all that important information. Glad your sweat and smarts have paid off in a big way and now you can enjoy the fruits of your labor!
Thanks for the kind words Ian. It was a lot of work, but it has given the generator a break for a change and we can be off grid for a lot longer. Very happy.
Another very interesting video. Thanks.
Glad you enjoyed it.
Great video! Really shows the complexity of the system. Amazing what the diagnostic apps do for you now days. Most other videos show carrying boxes in, employ professional, then act like they struggled thru install. The grit you showed doing it yourself and learning the minute details may save your bacon some cold stormy night in the middle of nowhere!
Thanks Gerald for the kind words. You may not have realized it, but you hit on at least two of the main issues that we not only struggle with, but also take pride in. Specifically, in systems like this one, we very much want to understand the intricacies of it from soup to nuts, as they say. In many ways, this battery install is similar to other types of batteries, but in others the similarities end. And the physical demands of this install were something I don't remember thinking too much about when I was young. I'll also admit to being a borderline OCD anal retentive type, and so I rarely see truly good work being done these days by the "professionals". There's too much time pressure, and I hear "yeah, but that's how we do it", or "really Kevin, it's good enough" way too much.
You may call it OCD, but what I call it is pride in workmanship, and that is exactly what is missing in "good enough".
Hey Guys! Top job on the install, I’m about to order 16 cells myself from Amy 😅 love the videos and following you guys. We are in Valencia and heading south and east soon! Keep up the videos, love the honest comments and details added to your videos.
P.s
It’s great to see ours isn’t the only salon that explodes with tools and boat parts with every job! 😂
Hi Richard. I still have my perfectly functioning (3x) Daly 150A/24V/8S BMS units if they fit your needs. About half price to what you'd pay to order. Anyway, Amy is a good source for stuff, and she's very diligent about staying on top of orders. BTW, there's a pretty extensive writeup in the description of the video that might help with your selection and install.
@@SailingTalisman thank you very much, I’ll be sure to read through. I’m thinking to go with the JK BMS 200
Amp and 2amp active balancer. Was this something you considered initially? Can imagine I’m going to run into bow thruster issues same as you guys with a smaller BMS. Also love the ac install with the 12 compressor, it’s well on the jobs list now 😅
Thanks Richard. Yeah, each install is going to be somewhat different. We chose Daly mostly because of a friend using and liking that product. Just make sure your total discharge amps meet the requirements of the bow thruster and windlass added together. Then add 10-20A extra for miscellaneous draw of instruments, lighting, and whatever else will be running at the time. @@RichardWalker-ko6iz
What a great setup. I love how detailed and informative your videos are. I always look forward to watch your videos. Thank you.
Thanks Jeff.
Cheers guys its good to see you back onboard.
Thanks Bob!
oh yes! so good to see you back on you tube certainly one of the best sailing YT. what a great and informative video. Hats off to Kevin and Wendy!
Thanks Simon. You're too kind.
Glad to see you guys back! Great video and great detail as always. Thanks for breaking it down easily.
You bet, TJ. Great having you!
Well, after watching sailing channels for the past 3 years I understood battery evolution, take out the old ones and install 6 lithium e.g. Battleborn.
I have absolutely NO clue what Kevin said or did in this episode.
Thanks for sharing 👍 water looked nice
Hi Patrick. If you take the cover off the Battleborn box, you'll see exactly the same blue cells, with a BMS sandwiched in somewhere. Battleborn is what's called a "drop-in" style battery with all the balancing and such done at the assembly location. But the problem I had was that no matter what brand I looked at, there was no way to fit the pre-assembled batteries into our available space, or at least no way to do it without halving the capacity (perhaps 560Ah at best).
@@SailingTalisman Thanks Kevin - amazing solution
Looks like a very sophisticated floating power station, you have there Kevin. Give us an idea of total costs?
I'd have to add that up. Batteries were somewhere around $3,500 ($149*24) and BMS units were $650. But wiring and cable lugs were insanely expensive. Plus they weigh a ton, and so added to the shipping costs. We used Tropical to ship our batteries and parts down, but now Tropical is beginning to balk at shipping batteries. It's so frustrating. They see Teslas catching fire and figure that's what will happen with all batteries. Which is wrong. LifePo4 are not nearly the same chemistry.
If, a really big if, especially in the Carribean, your supplier could do the value-added step of top balancing all your batteries to the identical voltage, it would be well worth the value add cost, so when they deliver them to you dock, they are ready for install! Real big "if", right? Very nice explanation of the issue, and the process. Well done! I just watched it for the second time!
Thanks Jim. I think the pro installers (these are few and far between) do top balance in their shop where time isn't a big deal.
Great job! Got these cell also 2 x 560ah in 12 volts with 2 bms 250 amp daly for 2 years now, what a game changer! I do not have a parallel balancer and my two pack stay balance, but on future video keep us inform on how they perform.
I kind of suspect they're unnecessary. I think it has more to do with using packs of different size/Ah. Ours just sit there for such extended periods of time that I suspect they would balance on their own. I would say that Daly's newer active balancing system is getting good reviews from the people who've tested it, and for us our cell voltage delta over 8 cells is generally around .002V to .009V, which is about as good as can be expected. Unhappy with their SOC meter, which does not seem to work very well. Could be a setting that's off, but I have yet to find it, and Daly's documentation and instructions truly suck.
@@SailingTalismantotally agree, both of my daly bms were not so great on the SOC drift by 30 % until I let the voltage doing the reset of the bms , after that my SOC follow victron shunt with a drift of +- 15% . The Daly bms don't see the +- 2 amps, but for voltage , temperature bms are the best this is why I used the uart communication cable to usb supply by Daly on both of my bms , they drive the mppt , inverter charger . Work really good!
Lots of good electrical info!!
Thanks Roger.
Great job on the install.
First few seconds I was hey that is Sandy island, glad you confirmed it at the end.
A few months ago I did a delivery of a 485 from Spain to the Canaries, I must say they are nice sailing boats, not as nice as a 56 but still very nice.
Hi DT. The 56 is bigger, and perhaps Oyster's best selling boat ever. I think it's better balanced in terms of keeping a heading, but don't have enough experience with them to say for sure. Glad you got the delivery. Nice work.
BTW, saw Simon in SXM and he said the girls had headed back to the USA permanently. What's the deal there?
@@SailingTalisman Yes the 56 is better balanced, I think it has to do with the shape and weight of the keel. They are also a lot heavier almost 12 metric tons more, that helps a lot with stability and keeping the boat more upright. However I must say that the 485, being lighter does pretty good in lighter winds. Where the 56 won't move in 10-14 knots of wind that 485 we got to 7 knots in 12 knots true.
@@SailingTalisman Sienna wanted to go to a real school, so they bought a house in SC where they live now. Simon is continuing giving sailing lessons/charter on Britican in the Caribbean.
Great to see you and Wendy back on You Tube Kevin. I see there was a bit of free advertising for James in your video, his plans are interesting for the next year or so, what are your plans for this season. Whatever they are always look forward to their release.
His plans are indeed interesting. But that's James I guess. Thanks for being with us!
Super. Cheers to you.
Thanks Laurie!
Well done.
Thanks!
I would replace those busbars with insulated, flexible copper busbars.
They're new, so I'll wait to see. I do need to check torque on the nuts coming up here.
Looks great but are ALL of those batteries properly secured in the event of your yacht being knocked down or even inverted? Thats a lot of batteries flying around the saloon just when you don’t need more trouble.
Hi Steve. It's good that you mention it since I see a lot of unsecured batteries out there. The answer for you is yes. The entire install is ABYC chapter E-13 (Lithium Battery Installs) compliant. The way it's done is a 1x1 piece of square stock along the bottom port side of the entire bank (between the house bank and start batteries), and then another along the starboard side top. There are spacers between each 8-cell pack to keep the cells from moving front to back, and the hinged plexiglass lids that the Daly BMS and parallel pack modules are adhered to (w/ 3M automotive mounting tape) are secured to the upper 1x1. The plexi lids are 1/2" thick and were fabricated in the US and brought down for the install. Any previous unused penetrations in the battery box have been sealed with West System G-Flex to make sure the box remains watertight. You'll notice that all wiring leaving the box exits as high as possible, and this is how it was done by Oyster. Wooden blocks cut to size clamp the lower lips of the engine and generator start batteries to secure those as well.
@@SailingTalismangreat to know that!! Fantastic job, I learned a lot!
Hi Kevin.
You have a similar setup to me.
Mine is 12vdc only.
I have two 280 amp hour banks in parallel, each with 250A Daly BMS's and the Daly 5A bank balancers.
I have noticed the Daly charge level indications(via bluetooth) are not very accurate but can be reset via their App.
My installed shunt and associated Coulomb meter give more accurate state of charge.
I still have LA start and windlass/bow thruster batteries.
My biggest concern has been the alternator, like you, I want the longest life from the Lifepo4s and remaining LAs so decided not to use an external alternator
regulator.
The problem with the external alternator regulator is either too high a voltage for the Lifepo4s or too low for the LAs.
So when I installed the new house bank , I removed the original voltage sense to alternator field line from the house and put it on the start battery, disconnected the house from the diode splitter that provided alternator charge to house/ start/ thruster batteries with a plan to connect house via a dc/dc from the start battery.
The victron ones as you know are 20A (maybe!) and they get expensive in multiples if they work?
I found a 60A dc/dc charger advertised on Aliexpress at around $150. The spec. looks ok so I am planning on trying that.
Will let you know if it works out.
In the interim I'm just using solar (600W) and 40A mains charger.
What do you reckon?
Hi Chris. Thanks for your nice note. On my side, since our house batteries are 24V and the start batteries are 12V, we have the benefit of having two alternators. So no problems with under or over volt at either sets, although I should check the output voltage on our 24V alternator as I've been assuming that it's outputting what it says from Sterling Power Products. But at present I have one major problem. and this is that I went too small on my BMS because the amp rating on our bow thruster was listed in my docs as 300A. In fact, it draws over 650A to start and is actually rated at 490A continuous. This is tripping the BMS when I use the bow thruster, but the engine remains running while the instruments reset and all sorts of alarms go off. Luckily, I'm good at docking and this is teaching me to be better. But this off season I'm going to need (3x) new 300A BMS units. I would also add that although I didn't bring it up in the episode, I did try to use (4x) Victron Orion TR Smart 24/24-17 chargers to smooth out my alternator charging, but this was a huge fail. I didn't want to throw Victron under the bus because there's always the chance that I have my head up my butt somehow, but these chargers led to a huge voltage drop in the system, taking about 6V (each) off the wiring run, and finally bottoming out at about 16V, which is the low volt Victron cutoff (the lowest you can manually set). Then the chargers try to convert that 16V to 28.8V and lose a ton of current in the process. There were tons of users having this same problem on the Victron forums and the admin people kept telling them to get bigger wiring. But I think it's a known problem that doesn't have a real solution. In the end I pulled them all out (then seeing .04V drop for the full charging system) and just let the Sterling Pro Reg DW external voltage regulator do its thing, set to output 28.2V on an AGM curve, which has been working well for 4 months. The Sterling regulator also has temp probes bolted to the alternator case and batteries, and will reduce output if either get too hot. As a question to you, can you let me know the settings you use for the Parallel Pack modules? How do you know they're working?
@@SailingTalisman
Hi Kevin, Handy to have the two alternators 👍
On the parallel pack modules, I assume they are working because although I did of course top balance (each set of four cells wired in parallel) and charged to 3.64 v using a 100A variable voltage charger. When I assembled the system I ran one pack for a while with no charge and noted a slight drop in voltage and obviously used some Ahrs.
When I connected the two packs in parallel I wanted to check if the BMS's were preventing an inrush of current as advertised and they seemed to do so (tricky to measure that) but no big sparks🤗
After using the Lifepo4s for a few days, both charge and discharge with the two packs in parallel I checked the individual pack voltages (I have a 300A breaker on each so can easily switch one or the other off the common bus bar) the voltages were within 0.001 of each other.
I'm currently 5000nm away from my boat so can't log onto the Daly BMS App to get the settings I have used.
Will let you know when I'm back there.
Hi again Kevin,
Just a thought for you, I purchased my Daly's from Daly directly via Aliexpress and did ask Daly for some clarification, they replied promptly and the Chinglish was understandable.
Catching up on one of my favourite channels. Was the reason you bought cells without an integrated BMS to save money? When I did my lithium install I didn't have to worry about balancing each cell as that had already been done at the factory and, in any case, I didn't have access to them as they were bundled up into 150 AH 12 V battery packs.
No, it wasn't about money. For us, we needed really big Amp Hour and discharge capacity. What you got was a drop-in system, so the batteries looked like regular car batteries to the eye, complete with two post terminals. But the addition of the plastic cases (big enough to house not only the battery cells but the BMS units too) was a non-starter for the space available in our factory provided battery box. Try as I might, and I looked at every conceivable case design, I could not find any that fit without wasting space or not fitting at all. And that wasted space was the space I could fill efficiently with a raw cell install. I'll admit it was way more work on the front end, but I also learned a ton and have greater options for dealing with problems later on. For example, BMS units are replaceable should one fail, as are individual cells. However, the expected lifespan of the cells per the mfr (EVE Lithium) is >=16 years.
Nice install! These batteries are the cheapest and highest energy density you can really pack into a boat. Battleborns are a rip off that you couldn't fit enough to get the same capacity in that space. I have a pair of 12 volt packs in both my Boxtruck RV Overlander conversion and two in my Catalina 30. Make sure your solar chargers are set up right and your alternator is if you are going to charge the lithium. If you aren't using your alternator set up a battery to battery charger on the engine start batteries. Depending on your alternator size that could really help and wiring it wouldn't be that hard. I have a paltry 20 amp unit in my overlander, but it can make a big difference on a long run. One suggestion is coat all your terminals with dialectric grease or you will be sorry. (Aluminum/steel connections) Use the dialectric because it doesn't pick up moisture. Amazon has some clear marine stuff that doesn't look as bad in a blue tube. Ive had issues with my Daly BMS being unable to balance the cells effectively as they move too little current. I would kinda keep an eye on that through the app, and I'm not too familiar with those extra little boxes, which I know Daly came out with an active balancer box too!
Hi Allyn. Thanks for the good advice. I took the video out of the episode because I didn't want to throw Victron under the bus without knowing fully what was going on. But my original plan had qty 4 Victron Orion 24/24-17 BTB chargers, but it was a huge fail. Each charger only produced 17A, so you needed 4 to allow our 70A Valeo alternator to put out it's full range. Victron claims an unlimited number of these can be added in parallel, but each additional unit caused a 4-6V voltage drop. With 4 units I was seeing a total voltage of 16V, which the units would attempt to convert to 24V, with a resulting large amperage drop. I never saw more than 20A of output. Hours and hours of diagnostics and research saw post after post on the internet complaining about this exact problem, with Victron (via their forum quasi-experts) telling everyone that the voltage drop was due to internal resistance in the wiring, and that the wires had to be bigger and bigger. But proof ended up being that removing the chargers entirely from the charging circuit yielded a .04V voltage drop, while adding them reliably dropped the voltage to 16+/- (very near or at the low voltage cutoff minimum). And the firmware was the latest available. Eventually just figured that my Sterling Power Pro Reg DW external voltage regulator would do better, and went with straight alternator charging. We don't go above 2200 rpms on the engine anyway, as that gets us our max cruising speed on the boat, and it's about 55A of output without abusing the belt. The alternator running temp is also well within factory limits.
@@SailingTalisman Stock regulators on lithium can really destroy an alternator....but if it can charge without overheating and overworking then I guess it is a win. Ive been told that most stock units will stay at maximum output for too long thus melting them down. My overlander has a stock 70 amp alternator, and I'm pretty sure it only actually outputs 30 or 35. Most alternators don't produce their rated output, which could have contributed to your battery to battery output issues. You maybe were going in expecting to stack them when maybe one or two was max.
@@allynonderdonk7577 Well we do carry a spare alternator on board, so I'll consider it a real-world test for the moment. But the Sterling Pro Reg external voltage regulator does have a temp probe that bolts to the alternator case to reduce amp output at certain temps, and I believe it does work since I see amps drop if the engine is run at too high an rpm. I also believe you are correct with your take on real vs. advertised outputs. Which brings up another point not readily understood by a lot of people. It isn't that LifePo4 batteries charge faster, which they might, nominally, but that you can run huge charging amps into them that would fry a normal battery. Thus, your increased charging speed is actually a function of how many amps you can find.
Interesting real world experience with the Victron B to B chargers, I have heard that single units run very hot in use, the voltage drop may explain that, a bit like using a PWM rather than an MPPT solar charger, those lost volts have to go somewhere …
Do you recall the type of Sterling regulator you have, I have one in my shed that is designed to trick the alternator into thinking the battery voltage is low so it ups alternator output current, I suspect that is exactly the wrong type to use with Lithiums if I want my alternator to last..
@@SailingTalisman One other thing to look at with the alternator. Make sure that when your batteries are full that the regulator puts out power your batteries can handle. In other words it doesn't try and put a maintenance charge in that cooks the batteries.
This would’ve been a better choice instead of all those headaches, you may have a future with those batteries because of vibration or whatever that may loosen the bus bars
EG4-WP Waterproof Lithium Battery | 48V 100AH | Bluetooth | 200A Output
Or
Epoch Batteries
24V 100Ah | Heated & Bluetooth | LiFeP04 Battery
Those are for marine environment and the welded busbars .
Well, we'll see. Certainly don't need heat here in the Caribbean. Pretty happy so far. Obviously, the choice is made.
Great vid !
Thanks much.
What's the advantage of single cell batteries to obtain 27vdc? Could've used multiple cell batteries.
Each cell is its own battery. These are just arranged in series to create the desired battery pack voltage and Amp Hours (Ah). It's done this way to make the battery packs movable by hand. 3.60V LifePo4 cells can be arranged in quantities of 4 to achieve nominal 12V (14.4V at full charge), 8 to achieve 24V/28.8V, and 16 to provide 48V/57.6V. And these various numbers (how many cells you have in series) will be used to pair the proper BMS to each type of pack (4S, 8S, 12S,16S, etc).
Looks like you need to research this ALOT more
Elaborate.
Just so I understand theory, @ 120 volts the three banks would total 505 watt-hours, correct?
Each battery bank is (qty 8) 3.60V prismatic 280Ah (amp hour) LifePo4 cells in series (8S) for 28.8V @ 280Ah. Three of these banks (or packs) arranged in parallel maintains the same voltage (28.8V) while tripling the Ah, so 840Ah. This overall arrangement is called 8S3P, or 8 cells in series plus 3 packs in parallel. So to address your question above, there is no 120V involved here. Our domestic DC battery bank is described as nominally 24V, and therefore (given Ohm's law) Volts * Amps = Watts. By extension, W/V=A and W/A=Volts. And although Ah is not the same as Amps, these cells charge and discharge at a max of 1C, with C being equal to the Ah rating, so 280A. Therefore 6,720Wh per pack, or 20,160Wh for all three. Total max discharge @1C would be 840A.
I thinking some loads would be through the inverter to AC. Would the watt-hours change if all loads were 120 vac
I'm assuming you disconnected that terminal at 3:15?
Hi Tom. Yes, whenever we work on batteries the first thing we do is switch off the isolator, which protects the various circuits from voltage spikes. And I should have mentioned it. But in truth, these batteries were so cooked that they were putting off no voltage or amps at all. The danger here was created by me, when I turned on a battery charger that sends 80A (or 54A as we had it set, per Trojan). In retrospect this was foolish as we hadn't used the batteries in 4 months, and that opens me to criticism that I should have known better, which I suppose I did at some level. But humans are creatures of habit, and the sun rises tomorrow like it did today. Therefore, I was lulled by 5 years of no drama with gel batteries into thinking that a pack outputting 15V (out of 24V) was just in need of charging, and was not in fact signaling failure in its ability to accept charging current. Lesson learned I hope for others as well as myself. And thanks for being with us.
Great information, thanks. Are your FLA start batteries on a completely different system, or did you fit a DC to DC charger to the Lithium batteries?
The start batteries are 12V, and each is independent, although they share a ground bridge across to the 24V side, which was how the boat was wired by Oyster. I attempted a BTB charger system, but it was a fail (see comment below for explanation). We're 3 months into using our engine alternator and Mastervolt 230V/80A charger (plus about 10A of solar), and couldn't be happier.
Does the Daily BMS monitor battery temperature?
Yes. There are wired temp probes on BMS units, so a total of (3), plus the temp from our Mastervolt charger, temp from our Sterling Power Products external voltage regulator, plus three probes from our Simarine Pico system. Lots of battery temp monitoring going on.
Looks like you need to paint on a new boot stripe. Did you get sponsored on these batteries? If not, why did you choose this brand over some of the others that other sailing channels have been using?
Ha. I like that. I should check the weights, but I suspect near equal to the old.
@@SailingTalisman What about the batteries?
@Robert Laird Sorry about missing the question. No, we were not sponsored on the batteries. We did get the supplier to waive a credit card transaction fee, but that was more me bitching about it. We chose Docan Power largely because they had a USA warehouse and we didn't want to deal with Chinese shipping. Pricing was similar across the board from various suppliers, and I suppose Docan sponsors Will Prowse over at DIY Solar, so that's how I heard of them. I think the biggest issue facing buyers is making sure you get what you're paying for. Specifically, there's a ton of fraudulently labeled batteries out there.
How many years do you think that you will continue to sail and do you plan on sailing in a different body of water. Possibly going around the world?
No, doubt we'll sail too much west of the Windward and Leeward Islands (Caribbean). Maybe back up the east coast of the US in a year or two, but that's a big trip.
@@SailingTalisman Why not make a big step and sail around South America and then across the Pacific?
@@robertlaird6746 It's tempting, but once you take that step, you're looking at a full transnavigation. I think we both like sporty day sails more than months at sea. We'll leave that to the young ones.
You don’t measure internal resistance ( R(in) )directly with a handheld meter. The cell (or battery) voltage needs to be measured at both no load and at full rated load. The R(in) can then be calculated. The more important issue is that R(in)’s are matched between cells in a battery). R(in) will change with temperature and charge state, so be sure these factors are matched between cells if you actually want to measure the R(in). I’d be inclined to trust the manufacturer’s measurements if you believe they are reputable.
Ah Ha! I knew there were way smarter people than me out there. Yes, each cell measured exactly the stated voltage, so I figured the numbers for IR were also good. And we have so much excess capacity that I have tons to spare. And as things stand right now, with cell deltas per 8S pack averaging around .004V, I'm pretty happy with balancing and the outrageous number of days I can go without recharging.
Wondering why you chose these batteries made in China over say - (4) DAKOTA LITHIUM 200 AH 12V LIFEPO4 DEEP CYCL made in US with an 11 year warranty?
Hi Allan. Assembled in the USA is not the same as made in the USA. The internals are exactly what you see. EVE or similar cells made in China. They literally own the market. And the boxes themselves are even made by the Chinese, who will provide them with artwork to your spec, ready to be assembled and rebranded. But the bigger problem for me, and I drew out a schematic for each brand (Dakota, Battleborn, etc., I think I drew up 5 brands), and none would actually fit in my boat's battery box. I should add that the latest EVE cells now have an expected minimum cycle life of 16 years (assuming 1 cycle per day), well in excess of the 6 years I got out of my Trojan gel batteries.
@@SailingTalisman - I just assumed that Dakota Lithium Batteries were entirely made in USA but evidently I was wrong. I couldn’t find anything on their website that states that they are manufactured in US but I came upon this post on the Internet:
“They are headquartered in North Dakota and their website touts “Rugged American Innovation” is behind every battery they manufacturer. I certainly don't doubt that claim, but every battery I buy from Dakota Lithium arrives with a “Made in China” sticker on the bottom.” Hmmmmmm.
Maybe one day I’ll ask Ryan (Ryan & Sophie).
@@allanmoore7790 Yeah, I wouldn't hold it against them. These companies are mostly working to try to create the end product the customers are looking for. And DL sponsors a whole bunch of cruising CZcamsrs, including Sailing Zingaro and Ryan and Sophie. They were going to help us out too, but the as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, the battery sizes wouldn't work for our battery box.
@@SailingTalisman - As you probably know Ryan is affiliated with DL and is a Board Member.
Moral of the project is do not DIY. You obviously have tons of knowledge.
Hi John. To argue the other side, I think DIY forces an owner/installer to more deeply understand the ins and outs of how their system works. By doing the drop-in version, people assume that the batteries function exactly like their old traditional batteries, which is far from the truth. Owners of sailboats should always be competent electricians and diesel mechanics anyway, but this forces you to up your game and really understand the interaction between volts and amps (energy usage, generally).
If you don't mind me asking, before starting a project like this did you check with your insurance provider that a DIY install of this size and scope is acceptable and they approve? Just asking no need to reply. Thanks for posting!
I've thought about it a lot. We're insured by a Caribbean insurance carrier that has shown no interest in the past. But I know Gowrey/Jacklines has been quite insistent on "professional installs", which they define poorly. However, at root I think the insurers are going to need to find a way to accommodate LFP (LifePo4) installs since traditional Lead Acid/Gel/AGM batteries will be a thing of the past from here on out. And the MSDS sheets for these EVE cells state "no risk" from fire or explosion. These are not EV car type batteries. It's a totally different chemistry. But risk is still there, and it comes from the huge energy density and the ability to melt undersized wiring. This is why so much effort was put into checking the amp loads and wiring sizes of everything that was added to the existing system.
@Mal Hi Mal. Thanks for taking the time to write. After looking into things to check (and feel free to add your thoughts), EVE LF280N cells have a standard discharge rate of .5C, or 140A. Max discharge is 1C, or 280A. So total max discharge for (3) packs = 840A. Daly 150A BMS will cut off at 150A, so 450A max output. Although not highlighted on the video, I do have a Blue Sea HD-3000 isolator on the positive side that cuts off all three packs (so not individual as you state, but still able to shut off easily). Isolator is rated 600A continuous, 900A 5 min., 1,750A 30 sec, max 32V. There is also the boat negative isolator that's hard wired into its own panel. Fuses: (qty 3) 150A fuses in Blue Sea 5005 holders (max 350A). Bus bars are rated at 150A, and I might look to upgrade those. Finally, Balmar 24v APD (alternator protection device) to intercept voltage spikes. Coming up I'll have one of the certified Lithium installers take a look at the install and produce a letter for insurance, but also remember that 30 year old boats aren't going to be 100% to modern ABYC standards.
@Mal I think something's off. We're talking about a 24V system, so max around 28.8V. I believe ABYC E-13, Lithium Ion Batteries, would cover what we're looking at. 13.6.6.1 "Conductors shall be provided with overcurrent protection device(s) as per ABYC E-11, AC & DC Electrical Systems on Boats". I suspect you're seeing the AC switching side because we will never, ever see 20KA @ 125V. A fuse of that size would not provide protection for otherwise properly sized conductors. What we do have is a 150A BMS set to cut out at 140A (.5C of 280Ah, so 140A). 150A BMS then has 150A fuse downstream to protect conductors, although these are still sized to carry the full 1C ampacity of 280A deliverable by the battery pack. Does that sound right?
@Mal Perfect. That video was awesome, so thanks for the link. It's Sunday, so the stores here in Grenada are all closed. But I think an upgraded fuse system is in order. We're here long enough to get a special order in if needed. But I'm also often surprised what they do have in stock. I also appreciate the time you've spent on this. Thanks so much. BTW, in answer to your question, the E-13 is definitely worth getting as it's dedicated to new LFP installs.
@Mal Cool. We're small, but try to keep it real. Great chatting.
You are an expert in so many areas! -- QUESTION -- If you were getting just one voltmeter, would you get the "clamp" meter or the muleteer without a clamp? IS there any advantage to getting the one without the clamp function? AstoAI 4000 Digital Clamp is the one we are thinking about.
Hi Coleen. Looks like you're planning some adventures. And that's great to hear. As for meters, yes I would opt for the clamp meter. But know that most of the mid and lower versions only test for AC amps. This is near useless for cruising sailors as we work mostly with DC battery power. So you must confirm that your chosen clamp meter will do DC. All of them to my knowledge will do AC, as that appears easier somehow. The reason you need the clamp is that that's the only way to easily measure amps with a circuit in use. Volts are pretty easy, but often you need a real number for amps. Not familiar with the Asto, but my go-to meter is a Klein CL800 clamp meter, and it has worked flawlessly for years. Fluke is probably the preeminent brand, but a bit more pricy. I also ordered a second set of leads (on eBay) that have alligator clips on them, and these have come in handy on a regular basis. If you are a cruiser, you'll be an electrician and a diesel mechanic more than a sailor.
@@SailingTalisman oh, that is really good advice. I hadn't noticed that. I am getting it as a gift but still dreaming of doing my own adventure! Super nice to see you sailing. Maybe I am remembering it wrong, but I can swear that Oyster 485s are now considerably more expensive than when you purchased yours. Crazy market. What's worse, is the new 495 seems unsuitable as it has a sail drive, the one thing I remember you mentioning not to get No idea why they did that. It costs lots and it looks less suitable.
@@michaeltca3103 485's have gone up $200K since we bought Talisman, largely putting us in the green after nearly that amount of investment. As for the 495, if you bought it new as you imply above, you could probably order whatever drive you liked. But my issue with Saildrive is simply the 10yr service on the diaphragm between the lower unit and the hull. That is a huge piece of labor, and one that people might ignore. Otherwise, it's possible that the SD versions get better gas milage, but unsure on that. Also, most twin rudder boats will have SD as you lose rudder kick for docking anyway. The bigger twin rudder Oysters will come with stern thrusters (in addition to bow thrusters) to compensate.
@@SailingTalisman ...new sailboats like Oysters seem to have gone up huge in the last few years. You struck gold when you purchased Talisman.