Ep 143 Installing Mabru 12V Marine Air Conditioning
Vložit
- čas přidán 19. 03. 2023
- As a person with a lifelong sensitivity to heat, not having air conditioning on the boat has been the one drawback to cruising. I love the warm, clear waters of the Med and Caribbean seas, but have always struggle with overheating.
So we finally dug deep and decided on major surgery for Talisman … a top quality air conditioning install. As always, this isn’t really a “how-to” video. Mabru will show you that. But instead it more a story arc of how it went in, and the difficulties associated with sourcing and install.
Hope you enjoy!
sailing yacht talisman, sailing, sailing youtube, boating, top sailing, oyster yachts, oyster sailboats, oyster 485, offshore, bluewater, blue water, sailing vlog, sailing vblog, sailing channels, sailing videos, cruising, monohull, Mabru air conditioning, ac, a/c, installing marine air conditioning, Mabru
![LIGHTNING Hits Boats. Here's How to Deal With It [Capable Cruising Guides]](/img/n.gif)
I like this guy because he complains just the right amount. No sugar coating installs or bad dock neighbors. It's kinda refreshing. Cheers!
Thanks George. I think Wendy would claim I complain too much.😃
Always great nuggets about work or play. Thanks for the extra effort to film.
Thanks Robert!
Great job Kevin!
Thanks Allan!
Always nice to hear from you guys. I must say I'm a big fan of Wendy's so it's always nice to see her smiling and happy. The more I watch your videos the more I think the Oyster are the ultimate platform
We love the Oysters, obviously, so no argument there. I'm trying to get more Wendy footage, but she's like a Lynx, and disappears whenever I'm filming. I've got a lot of her this season, so keep an eye out coming up.
Love the new video! Great life lesson along with the install video. When things get tough that’s when you have to work the hardest.
Thanks TJ!
Thanks for the explanation of the ducting challenge. Talisman videos are always interesting, well explained as to difficulties as well as easy successes and are expertly edited.
Thanks Brian. Always appreciate these type of comments. We try to show the real side of things as best we can.
Thank you for your honest opinion, we are looking to install air conditioning and power is a major concern, happy sailing ⛵️
No worries. Despite what some of the armchair experts tell people, native 12V or 24V systems are preferable in my opinion over inverter converted 110VAC or 230VAC in terms of energy use. And Mabru makes both versions, so their CZcams video comparing the energy draw from each of their systems is very much worth watching since it's an honest apples-to-apples comparison. Be aware that there are a few Chinese made self-contained systems that are marketed as 24V, but in fact just have an inverter already built into a standard line voltage unit (Hopewell?). Although I buy a lot of Chinese made products, I've found that making the sale is often prioritized over customer satisfaction. It's a cultural thing. Caveat Emptor.
Love it when you put out new videos. I always learn something. I will now be looking into a small 12v AC for our aft cabin that we can run on batteries when anchored. 😊
Good deal. Glad you enjoyed. It's a lot of work, but well worth it.
Nice job! Another great video.
Thank you! Cheers!
Awesome job!!!!!!!!
Thanks Andre!
Always impressed with the way you fearlessly tackle these big install jobs, Kevin . As a farmer I know what it's like to be Mr Fix it...and you do a nice, clean professional job. Well done Sir!
Thanks Nick. That's high praise.
Cheers guys stay cool
Hi Bob. We are!
Kevin I'm impressed, both on the battery system and the AC job. Good job sir, on the research and selection of the components along with the installation. Clean and professional. Best I've seen from a DIY'er. God bless!
Thanks Greg. These are the types of comments that make the production of the episodes worthwhile. And God bless to you as well.
@@SailingTalisman It would have been better if I'd remember to credit Wendy on the bottom coat job. Nice when you can trust your better half to do better work than you.
@@gregvee2930 She's awesome that way. She does all the winch teardowns, cleaning, and re-lube too.
@SailingTalisman You likely already did this, but that zip tie at the rudder quadrant, you might want to use 2 and run them between the 2 hose clamps. So they are on coupler not the hose.
@@gregvee2930 Next time I'm in there I'll take a look. Thanks much.
Congrats on the A/C! What took you so long! Comfort was always big on my list when boating like the largest Bimini that could be mounted . On my 25 ft Bayliner I installed A/C, only worked on 110V --- 30 years ago, so towards evening we pulled into a marina and had a comfortable night. Was worth it to me. These new units are awesome. Enjoy!
It always seemed like a combination of too much money and too much work. But I was wrong. The benefits have already paid off the labor, and I guess it was an item that we'd been budgeting for for a while. Just never was sure it was going to fit until I took exact measurements.
Nice job Kevin And Wendy, liked the thoughts on how to keep moving past obstacles, another point of the equation is filming and thinking how that will fit together in the edit.. I can see why it’s exhausting. Thx
Hi Tom. I feel like I beat that drum a bit too often as I've said it in at least three other episodes, but it bears repeating I suppose. I see so many projects die on the vine in boatyards while groups of cruisers drink at the bar (not that I'm averse to drinking at the bar, but you gotta get the work done first!). And yes, the editing is exhausting. But the comments make it worthwhile.
Always impressed with the way you two work together. Couldn't imagine an adversarial relationship on top of what needs to get done. Do you ever use project management tools for planning order points, critical path etc.?
I used to use Microsoft Project when I was doing real estate development work, but boat projects are pretty simple and not generally layered with subcontractors. And having Wendy is a Godsend. She makes everything so easy.
I used to be skeptical of battery powered multi tools until I used one. This would have been a piece of cake using one. Try one out if you get the chance. Get video :)
You mean like the Dremel I was using, or something else? Battery powered tools of all kinds are indispensable on a boat like Talisman. First, depending on the country, we see either US or Euro power (60Hz vs 50Hz, 110V vs 220V), which corded tools will not allow (choose one). Second, our 800W inverter might power some corded tools, but most will only work off our 6Kva (230VAC/50Hz) generator, which is notoriously finicky. Anyway, Lithium technology has revolutionized the tool business.
First off another wonderful informative video. One question is there any concern about sweating from the uninsulated duct work.
Good question. Yes, the ductwork sweats a lot, at least close by the unit, and I think I have room for insulated ducting for the 2-3' before the "Y" splitter. I'll bring that down next season. Not available locally as far as I know.
Understanding that you are limited on space, but was any thought put into reducing the twists and turns of your piping.? Everyone of those will reduce the efficiency of the air flow. Won't you have condensation problems around the cold air outlets like the one in the aft cabin?
Hi Brian. Lots of thought, but little in the way of alternative options. I do believe this is why the units are native 4" output (w/ 90 degree rotating output collar) for the 6K and 12K units, then 5" on the 16K. I ran the 4" through 4" splitters, and then kept as much 4" ducting as I could before necking down to 3" with the reducing rings. Used shop vacuum hose for 3" ducting as there was very little of the insulated spiral tubing on the market. Although performance might be negatively affected some as you point out, we find that air output is quite good, and once the room temps are at the selected number, the fan speed drops off anyway. No individual run is more than 8' in total (obviously, minimized) . Great product all-in-all.
Very nice install video . Always enjoy your videos . I will be curious how the amp draw turns out , I designed and built my own 12DC air conditioning . I get 6000 btu drawing about 25 amps/12v . That’s on low speed .
Mabru has a nice video detailing their native 12V system vs a 110/220V system (they make all kinds of versions) and measuring the amp draw with each. Inverter converted line voltage sees huge starting amps (I want to say 90A), and could probably do with a "soft-start" feature. That's where you want to go to see actual installed power use. And thanks for being with us.
@@SailingTalisman Happy they are working so well for you . Yeah I watch you guys all the time , we are of like minds . I used a soft start compressor that ramps up slowly . You cant hear my unit either . DC is the way to go , but as you said they are not cheap . It wasn’t cheap to build one either .
Enjoy .
John
Hi again , its been a few months and i know that you guys are back home , but how did those AC units work out down there in the Caribbean. Just got my boat in the water , so will be heading your way soon.
Cut with a fine tool they are invaluable on a boat
Hi Jay. I have one at home, but it's a corded version and wouldn't have made the cut for usefulness. But they are awesome for certain situations. Mine would probably have been too big and powerful for the delicate work and I'm not sure it wouldn't have done damage. One issue I was having with the Dremel was that I'd run out of cutting disks and was down to scavenging old ones out of the trash. Anyway, got the job done in the end.
@@SailingTalisman Dremel is another go to tool on our boat. Not sure if those discs cut or burn through wood? 😂🤣
@@JayPerrypersonal They burn. And the boat smelled like it was on fire when I was done. But like I said, it got the job done. Very pretty to the eye now that it's complete, and that's what I was looking for.
In this day and age of broken supply chains, and lost packages... Would you say that a good way to source items is to buy 2+ of everything, 1+ of everything from 2 different sources and be willing to take the extras as spares? Ok, you don't do that for say the new batteries you installed, because that's a huge bill, but for other things, but the extras from different sources? Buying parts at small stores in far away places is just crazy. And folks, label your wires, every couple of feet so you will always know what the wires are! SVs have so many wires running throughout the whole boat, and it's super easy to confuse the ID of the wires! Kevin knows how to do it right, pay attention folks... There is great advise being given here!
I'd say I try to stock deeply on all the consumables on the boat. Zip ties, hose clamps, blocks, Dyneema line, fasteners, plastic and brass hose fittings, hoses in various sizes, wiring, fuses, impeller spares, cotter pins, etc. Tools of every type that we might need. Then we have a spare for each pump we have, although a few of those are used pumps that we replaced as service items. We religiously follow recommended service intervals on oil and filter changes, as well as belts, which we carry multiple spares of. Oil and Racor filters need to be kept in the 3-4 spare range. Fluids like engine oil and coolant are required, and I also document every single service item that is done on the boat. So a full spreadsheet/database of service history. That's what comes off the top of my head, but of course it's much more. I also try to cull the things that we haven't used in several years, especially if they're heavy or bulky, but that's always problematic since the second you ship it home you need that exact item. But what can you do?
@@SailingTalisman That's sage advise to people getting into the game, and wondering what to do and how to keep track of it all. Well done!
Links to those pumps? Just a suggestion for the air duct strapping..... extra large zip ties!
Not sure where the pumps are sourced from. They came with the Mabru kits.
Great job! Any issues with the proximity to the EV1 Core Sensor?
Not yet. We've been keeping an eye on it due to increased amounts of metal parts nearby, but functionality appears to be working as before when compared to our compass deviation card that we created a couple of years ago.
@@SailingTalisman 👍
Curious if you have any updates on the AC. Still satisfied with performance and quality?
Still going strong. I have to say that the units are running well with no issues at all. We use them nearly every night.
You mentioned 5 to 10 days without charging your batteries?
Is that with solar charging them?
Like the idea of aircon at anchor. However I’m setting up our boat to be fully autonomous for up to 3 months at a time. We have 1.2kw of solar so as long as we have sun we can charge batteries fully and make water (25 amps at 24v) run the washing machine etc. looks like we could even run that aircon you installed for a few hours a day.
For the cloudy days we have the generator but we hardly ever need it even in the winter.
Yeah, we have about 490W of solar, so not much. We don't have the real estate that the cats and larger monohulls have, but we still get about 10A+/- during the day, which keeps us even-up. But of course we lose ground overnight. Now that our generator is back up and working, we use the a/c from about 8pm to 7am in the aft cabin, which drops our battery capacity from 95% or so to 75%, then run the genset for 3 hours give or take the following day. Without a/c, 10-12 days with no recharging other than the anemic solar will take us down to 45% or so on our Simarine Pico battery monitor, which I feel (know) works better than Daly's internal version. It's something Daly needs to fix.
@@SailingTalisman we had a arch made for the stern. It does ruin the look of the boat and our 1200w (3 x 400w) solar panels are wider than the stern and look like a huge wing. However they are not as wide as the dinghy on the davits, and I have to say best thing we added to the boat so far. We couldn’t live onboard full time at anchor, we don’t do marinas, without them. Ewell we would have to run the generator most days where we never really use it now, a few times over winter
Great job. However you installed the air conditioner very close to you EV2 sensor. That should be 1m at least for electronic or magnetic metals
I know. It says that in the manual, but we haven't had any issues yet. In the end, it's the sensor that would have to move. But even in its original configuration the quadrant and cables/frame are right next to the factory location (original Fluxgate version). I think it's something that can happen, like bimini frames causing compass deviation, but isn't 100% going to be a problem.
That looked like a real bugger of a job.
It wasn't easy. But well worth the effort and expense in the end.
What did you ever figure out with the hydraulic backstay?
So I dropped it off at FKG Rigging in Dutch Sint Maarten where we had our standing rigging replaced earlier this season, and their hydraulics shop replaced the hydraulic oil but didn't have the time or materials in on hand to cut another ram, which was their preferred solution. I love that backstay tensioner, and feel it provides not only fantastic adjustability, but redundancy in that it has the threaded safety rods along the side, making it practically failproof (as long as you have the locking nuts set as required). So we decided to put if off till next year. It isn't a day-to-day problem as we use the locking nuts to carry the load and then release the hydraulic tension afterward, thus keeping the seal from seeping. The source of that problem was/is the flaking chrome on the ram, which has damaged the seal. My only concern is that stainless steel is weaker than tool steel, but the FKG guys say it isn't an issue. Next year we'll address.
Your ducts aren't insulated, any condensation or temperature loss because of this?
The units have a 5" output, which is way too big for the clearances I was dealing with. So the 5" and necked down 4" ducting that I used were insulated, but I was unable to find 3" tubing in anything other than shop-vac rubberized hosing, and as it turns out, that stuff is so thick and burly that it insulates quite well over the relatively short runs I needed it for. As for condensation, I do get some on the insulated 5" and 4" tubing, and on the units themselves, but otherwise the systems operate flawlessly in a truly difficult environment. They are forced to handle high ambient temps, high humidity, and being stuffed into small spaces. Big thumbs up to Mabru on their engineering and construction.
What's the general consumption , you said 30 amp at start up , and didn't give a proper usage . Just it goes down ?
Sorry about that David. Last night, running from about 8:00P to 8:00A, we used +/-190Ah out of 840Ah, or about 23% of our total. The 6000BTU unit consumes (per Mabru) 22-28A @ 12V, so 11-14A @ 24V, less the small conversion factor from the Victron dropper. The 12,000BTU is rated at 33-44A, so 16-22A @ 24V. Doing a quick calc, aft AC consumes approx 36% of the total AC budget, so had we just used the aft unit last night, we'd be at substantially less battery usage. There's a fixed and variable aspect to the above as we also have lighting, fans, and refrigeration that continue constantly, so if you ask me to I'll do the same test tonight with just the aft AC. Thanks for a great comment and for following along with us.
@@SailingTalisman thanks, thats informative .
how much did it cost installed ?
About $5,500 per unit, plus wiring, fuses, droppers, and ductwork, all of which were surprisingly expensive. A general rule of thumb for labor on complex jobs in the USA is to use the total materials cost as your labor rate, although in this case I would have assumed just the main units, so approx $11,000 for install. In the islands, less, but install quality would have been questionable due to lack of specialized tools and a more general disregard for fit and finish.
A lot of work and a lot of cost. Had you considered buying a 50 foot boat that needed a complete overhaul instead?
So, Talisman was a fully sailable boat when we bought her, so not a "project boat" per se. The issue we faced when shopping was that we wanted a bluewater boat, preferably by Oyster, but didn't have $2.5M to spend on a new one. So the trick was to find an older model that was in presentable condition, which Talisman was. I replaced all the major electronics (navigation and stereo), and we set off cruising. So that was the important part, to actually go sailing. But as you might see in our channel library, I love having all our systems not only operational, but also modern and new. But taking an ex-charter boat, or worse, a hurricane damaged salvage boat, and trying to bring it back is insanely expensive and labor intensive. Mostly a losing game where you'll go broke during the process and have nothing to show for it.
A comment on durability/reliability. - Aren't these the same Mabru 12v AC units Ytuber Sailing Nahoa installed (3 of them) about 1 yr ago, and all 3 failed crossing the Indian Ocean? Was that a fluke or have they improved the design? I don't watch every Sailing Nahoa episode so I'm not sure if they resolved the failure issues and what the problems were.
I have to admit that we don't watch many other CZcams channels since we have such limited time and bandwidth. But I doubt there's another Mabru 12V product other than what we have. I did do some internet searching to see if there were major reliability issues, and didn't come up with anything obvious. Mabru seemed a bit touchy about CZcamsrs, and our units came with the red hanging tags seen in the video warning that lack of grounding would void the warranty. I'm kind of thinking that to have three go bad within a year would be odd, and that not grounding them would 100% result in a quick demise due to galvanic corrosion and/or electrolysis. But we're only 3.5 months in. I guess we'll find out.
@@SailingTalisman FYI- Sailing Nahoa installed units 1 yr ago in episode "Boatyard Life- Getting Ready to Sail to Africa". They are pretty seasoned catamaran cruisers and do both DIY as well as hiring professional help, I don't recall which episode they mentioned the units had failed or any other follow-up.
@@douglasrobbie9998 Like I said, we'll see. Total failure of three units simultaneously (or nearly simultaneously) sounds suspicious to me. These are stand-alone units, so isolated more or less. But I hope we get better longevity. 😀
@@SailingTalisman Sorry I was mistaken , poor memory. Per their most recent posting Nahao indicated the two 5000btu units died and the 12000btu unit is still working. I have no skin in this, but given the cost of these specialized AC units, I just wanted to alert you to an issue another cruiser had. Having AC on a sailboat in a hot climate is such a great idea.
@@douglasrobbie9998 No worries Douglas. This is a big experiment anyway, so we'll see where it goes.
80 amps: is that 80 amps at 12V or 24V?
24V. As boats get bigger, the move from 12V to 24V gets more pronounced. This is because you can send 24V power over reasonably sized wiring further than you can 12V. Ohms law states V*A=W, w/ watts being the common denominator. Therefore, when you double volts, you halve amps. Thus you can send big power to bow thrusters and windlasses that might be far from the battery bank. Many 12V boats will have axillary batteries in the v-berth to help with this problem.
🎉 *Promosm*
If your job can be done from a boat, it can be done from an office in Bangalore, India. Dont get too comfortable. I fire people who want to work "remotely" and outsource it to India.
I would counter that the market adjusts prices as needed, and labor is a price like any other. Therefore, you pay for the travel time and hassle of commuting. This might take the form of increased $ required to have workers answer the call, or in lack of workers altogether. Many hiring managers find that getting the best workers might mean hiring them from far afield. Your assumtion that Indian workers can be swapped for American and European workers without other costs entering the mix, specifically language, work habits, and time zone differences, flies in the face of many managers' personal experiences. I have a brother who works in tech on the West Coast who tells the story of a fantastic Indian software coder he had working on a project. But all of sudden it was like the guy lost his wits and couldn't answer basic questions anymore. As it turned out, the first guy had quit to take a job at another company, and rather than own up to this his bosses just reassigned his name and email address to someone else. With that experience among others, my brother's company exited the Indian software development market. The promise of cheap labor abroad is nearly always a loss-leader method of gaining market share, and rarely lasts long.
Ouch. You're using water to remove the heat. You have a 24 to 12 volt converter. To me, a mess that shouldn't be promoted. Campers already have a 24 volt all air DC system. You install it up high, dry, and safe. It's about 40% the size of a window AC. A good DC air conditioning show should show the simple installation, proper electrical connection, how to budget the watts, and how to use feel and not waste the AC.
With respect, nearly all marine a/c installs, starting with OEM installs, are water cooled. This is because you don't want a deck mounted condenser like you do with an RV where you can mount one to the roof. And the marine specific 12V/24V systems are just barely arriving on the market as we speak. Prior to this, 95% were/are inverter fed 12V or 24V house bank source to 230VAC. Such an inverter would be expected to draw well over 90A from a 12V house bank, at least on startup. And typically, most smaller sailboats (below 45') will utilize 12V house banks. Larger 45' plus boats will move to 24V based on the need for longer wiring runs. Double the volts means half the amps. Mabru (which offers both AC and DC units) has a video on their site demonstrating this. Part of what they show is the parasitic conversion loss when using inverters to convert to high voltage. But by using a native 12V or 24V system, you can easily get a high quality Victron Orion dropper that will minimize conversion loss, which we have seen ourselves in the day to day operation of our two units. Know that as I was shopping, I kept seeing Chinese "24V" A/C units being sold at attractive pricing. But as I investigated I found that many were simply adding an inexpensive inverter to a native 230VAC unit, meaning that you were just buying a workaround design.