3 Tankless Water Heater Myths
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- čas přidán 11. 06. 2024
- More Information on Tankless Water Heaters -
How to Flush - bit.ly/2CjLnjX
Before Buying - bit.ly/2BPJp9J
Descaling/The Bummer - bit.ly/2C3ExCf
-Flow-Aid System DeScale Kit - amzn.to/2Ae7gPQ
Flow-Aid Solution 1 Gallon (enough to flush 2-3 units)
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Very happy with our tankless. The maintenance is accomplished with $50 Amazon pump and a couple of gallons of white vinegar. Takes about 5 minutes to hook things up and then you let the pump run for 45 minutes. Long term costs are are less than $10 per year
In Japan you will frequently find multiple smaller tankless throughout the home, one near each fixture with it's own thermostat control. For instance I was living in a two bedroom apartment and had one in the kitchen, one in the toilet room restroom, and one in the shower/bath room. Because they were located so close to the sinks/showers the hot water was truly near instant. Each unit was about 1/3 to 1/2 the size of the one you featured in this video.
Same in Britain. It's because they run 220 line voltage
@@BGraves that guy knows what he is talking about.
Thats what I deal with at my work and its junk
@@macthemec what do you dislike about it? I loved it!
You can do this if you want to, but who wants to deal with having a billion of these in a home? It's ugly in a finished space and there is maintenance associated with each unit.
Pro tankless Vid, with stacks of tanks behind him. Perfect!
Excellent video...thanks Matt. When I was stationed in Chiangmai, Thailand, in 1968 we had tankless water heaters in the civilian complex we were renting. They were efficient, and during my year there repair service was never needed. With that memory in mind, when I built my latest new house nearly 50 years later I finally opted for a tankless system. No regrets at all. For me personally, the savings are legitimate. One of the routine blunders we all make with a conventional water heater is to turn on the hot water when only a quick rinsing of the hands or whatever is wanted. Seldom do we wait the half minute for the hot water to reach the faucet or for the lines to heat up to really deliver hot water. So, we deplete some of the tank's stored hot water unnecessarily, which means that cold water must "replenish" the tank. The tank then fires up for an extended time to reheat the stored water that was drawn off for no good reason. Pure waste. You would think we would all learn to give up on 20-second or more delays for hot water that we generally give up on, but we seldom give up our bad habits. If you keep this same bad habit with a tankless system, it will only fire up briefly before it goes back to sleep. Another poster complained about short starts & stops resulting in inefficient combustion and gas smell buildup, but never once have I experienced this. Sounds like a unit may have been malfunctioning. As for tank cleaning, this is simple for anyone with reasonable handyman skills. Once you buy a relatively inexpensive circulation pump the only cost is then for the 3-4 gallons of vinegar used for each flushing. Beats replacing a conventional water heater every 10-15 years, not to mention risking flooding when a tank ruptures when you are on vacation. When friends and family visit, having virtually unlimited hot water for each bathroom, the kitchen, and the laundry room is a very nice convenience.
What model did you get, please?
Larry- you make a good point on waste.
Why hasn't the usa gov't outlawed tanks. They stepped in and f****d up our washing machines. New machines can't clean at all.
Worked as an energy auditor for the electric utility here in Hawaii . Part of my job involved investigating high bill complaints. With some of the highest electricity rates in the nation, I was often called to explain why customer's bills were still high after installation of a tankless water heater. Quite a few people were sold one tankless heater for the whole house expecting to realize savings. They never factored in heat loss from pipes. It takes a lot of electricity to heat water instantaneously, and then send it efficiently to a fixture on the other side of a house. They now add additional heaters closer to every point of use , however at added cost. The increased expense of additional heaters, maintenance, noise, and often wiring upgrades need to be factored in? Traditional tanked heaters have their own challenges. Best thing about tankless is the savings in space, and the lack of having to store a heavy, large volume of water inside a home. Tankless may have its use, however savings in dollars doesn't seem to be one of them.
If people are concerned for the price of heating hot water with electricity, they should be looking at heat pump hot water heaters (3x more energy for same price), or maybe solar (10x or so), not instantaneous electricity heaters - those barely offer any savings.
Excellent information. In Costa Rica they have point of use water heaters. But as you stay, one at each use point.
They need to be flush/cleaned yearly also.
In one trade magazine,
they did a test,
and a super high efficiency (94%?)
boiler had it's efficiency go down to something like 66%,
after not being flushed for 3 years.
So they may have been spending a ton also
because their water heater was scaled up.
i'll take a tank anyday.
89% efficiency for the life of the appliance,
and 40 gallons of hot water even without power.
And simple and cheap to replace.
@@michael-dm2bv what you and most everyone else fails to note is the most important factor being the kind of water in your area. If the water supply is "soft water" ....the need for "cleaning", "flushing", "descaling" ....is ZERO. This being said, the efficiency does NOT change. It stays at the original rating.
So if your opinion is poor about tankless water heaters, you need to qualify your opinion by stating that the water in your area is HARD WATER.
.
@@taxicamel No advantage to a tankless.
Tanked electric,
if i lose power i still have 40 gallons hot water to play with.
40 gallon gas?
i never run out of hot water,
regardless of electricity.
What does a tankless buy u?
A water heater with 50 parts
rather than a tanked heater with 5 parts?
Hard water?
Soft water?
Hilarious.
i am willing to bet most people have water
that is more hard than soft.
Look. Central CT.
We had a lightning storm a few years ago.
The next day one of our states biggest supply houses had lines out the door.
Tons of people with overly complicated tankless water heaters,
all had burnt out logic boards,
and the supply house had no replacement parts, because tankless heaters are always complicated,
and always evolving.
For what?
For 6% better efficiency?
Should i pray for soft water,
that way i can spend 3 times the cost,
for an overly complicated water heater,
just to save 100 dollars a year?
Hey - my AOSmith water heater, when I bought it, was deemed most efficient and I have never ran out of hot water. I paid a nice penny for it in 2011, but compared to tankless at the time and install fees, was better bargain and still performing strong today! My water heater is a power vented unit with digital controls. Allows for radiant heat loop add on and remote controller. This was the investment choice I made.
The only tankless brand I’ve really used is Rinnai. I grew up with an old Rinnai and it lasted 15 years before I finally replaced it for my folks. Being a plumber myself and having installed these, I have no complaints with them. Tanks on the other hand I’ve been to countless service calls to houses that the company plumbed that had only been finished for three years. With the changes they are making to tank water heaters it seems it is drastically changing their life span for the worse. The basic manufacture warranty for the particular brand we installed was 6 years. The vast majority of those water heaters never lasted more than 8. I figure with the efficiency of the tankless and the fact it can handle demanding temperature rises fairly easily it’s a no brainer to go tankless. Recirc lines like he said will fix the issue of waiting for cold water. If money isn’t the driving factor but comfort is, I would far suggest the tankless. Specifically Rinnai’s integrated pump model, or their duo system for larger homes or applications. But hey that’s just me. Happy plumbing
Am a week into researching replacing my tank with a tankless, and this video (plus your other one on condensing vs non-condensing) has been invaluable. And I appreciate you addressing the myth of “instant” hot water with a tankless, thus I’m now going down the gopher hole of looking up recirculating pumps, crossover valves, and flushing isolation kits. Much appreciated!
Same!!
Or just buy a few tiny "under-the-sink" electric water heaters. They cost less than $200 each. Install one in each bathroom and you do get instant hot water.
i got a conventional. sure it uses a pilot lite, but whent he power goes out, i sitll got hot water since gas is still in the lines XD
@m rapacki descale a normal tank one?
As long as I have hot water I'm great. 22 years and my tankless going strong.
Hi. Alice how often do you flush yours?
I have the one in city house cleaned every year, and the other one hasn't been serviced at all, it's on well water, over 22 now.
What brand?
I'm from the UK and we use them a lot and I've never heard of flushing them. And my old home area had very hard water. Must be an American thing lol
@@aliceholbert1246 So I have relatively hard well water, having a tankless installed tomorrow, are you saying I may not need to plan to flush this system at all?
I first saw these tankless units when I was doing business in Europe in the mid 1980's. The typical home actually had several units. One small one for the bathroom to handle the shower, tub and sink and another in the kitchen. They were cute little things that fired up whenever you turned on the hot water. So, I put one in my house and it has worked great for over 11 years.
What make and model?
Back when I was a plumber I installed quite a few of these. Back then they were kind of hard to find, kind of expensive and had a lot of cons vs pros imo. I made a nice niche for myself because I had lived in Korea for a few years and had not only experience with them before they made their way to the states but the ability to order them from korean suppliers since I was fluent in Korean. Many plumbing businesses didn't want to mess with them at the time in the US. Setting up and programming them was tricky, the filter in them got clogged easily and required some work-arounds and additional stuff sometimes. But in Maryland/DC area a lot of people building homes wanted them.
What I saw was the initial cost was high, energy savings were not that much. Installation could be expensive if you needed gas run, a vent installed, etc. If you had issues there was no drip pans or drains. If you had issues you might have a hard time finding parts or a company that will service and if they do they charge much more. They can be tricky to set but you do get lots of options on the display module but that requires a lot of the customer needing coaching if they are not diy or tech savvy. They do not send hot water as instantaneously as people believe they will.
The only pros that I could see was they are great for small living spaces that have no option for traditional waterheaters but that is arguable too since the clearances for tankless are more than for a small WH you could fit in a closet. Or a tankless might be good for places where they might be installed outdoors in year around warm climates.
Not sure how much they have changed in the last 15 years since I messed with them but considering the advancements regular waterheaters have made, I would stick with traditional myself.
I installed my tankless water heater myself in 1985. It is still serving me well today. I live in Pittsburgh Pa.which is not a warm weather city. This water heater has saved me thousands of dollars over the years. Not just in natural gas savings, but not having to replace the water heater every 10 to 12 years.
3 things are necessary for the efficienct operation of a tankless water heater.
1. Soft water, which allows the water to heat more quickly and also prevents calcium buildup in the water heater. I have never had to flush my water heater since 1985 and it’s still going strong.
2. A good water regulator which will provide a predictable flow rate which is necessary for the proper operation of the water heater.
3. A good whole house water filter which will prevent debris from clogging the internals of water heater. When street repairs are made to external water lines, it often results in a great amount of debris which will lodge in the water heater if a whole house water filter is not installed.
There is one more item which is a very good idea but not mandatory for proper operation, and that is to place a pressure gauge upstream and downstream of your regulator to let you know when your regulator fails. I’m a retired industrial piping designer and know the benefits of a properly installed tankless water heater.
I’ve spent less than one hundred dollars in part replacement since 1985.
@@MrJamespeyton Sounds like you could also get many years of life out of a conventional water heater with that kind of setup.
I rolled the dice on a Rinnai tankless water heater nearly 20 years ago ... a newer technology in this region at the time. It just 'died' earlier this week after all these years with zero problems! We LOVE it. My new Rinnai is going to be installed tomorrow afternoon.
good for yOU!
Ha, my tank water heater was just replaced with another one, last one was installed in 1996. It uses just 3 ccf a month. It sure beats buying a tankless for $2500
@@paulhunter9613 worse than that, paying to get it installed and upgrading your gas
I’ve had my tankless water heater since 1985 and it’s still performing well. I have never flushed the unit ever.
The secret to longevity and dependable service is that 3 things are necessary.
1. Soft water. This eliminates the need for annual flushing and enhances the efficiency of the water heater because soft water heats more quickly using less energy.
2. A good water regulator for a constant dependable flow rate. My water heater requires a 2.5 gpm flow rate for optimal efficiency.
3. A good whole house water filter to keep debris from clogging the internal heating chamber. This filter should be replaced at least twice a year, depending on your water usage.
To insure your water regulator is working properly, installing pressure gauges upstream and downstream of your water regulator is a good idea to let you know when it fails. My water regulator is set for 60 psig. I’ve spent less than $100 on parts since installed.
2 diaphragms for the gas regulator.
1 pilot light thermocouple
1 pilot light gas filter
I have NEVER had to flush the water heater due to my soft water unit.
@@paulhunter9613 I’ve had my tankless water heater since 1985 and it’s still going strong.
I live in Pittsburgh where the water supply is very cold in the winter. I would have had to replace at least 3 tank type water heaters by now. Save money on monthly natural gas bills too.
Dude, I love your editing job. Transitioning across the screen with you on both sides.
with that out of the way, good job on the info given out
Very informative! I like that you really try and discuss both sides of owning either option, and not like what many do, where they have a vested interest to make one option look better than the other.
Thanks Terry!
Solar hot water in Phoenix, never run out of hot water and it's crazy cheap to run. Even if you ran out of hot you just switch to the cold which is also hot 😁
Man in Europe have solar heaters and on demand
Sounds like August in Texas 😄😄
So move to Phoenix so the money I save on hot water can be spent on A/C year round? LOL
@@chrishuyler3580 Actually in the winter you don't need much if any heat or AC and the solar hot water still works great. What people pay for heating in the winter I feel costs more then the AC does in Phoenix.
Lol
Thank you for making this video. I was skeptical about changing my water heater to a tank less and now that I've seen your video, I going forward to a thankless water heater.
I purchased a Bosch tankless water heater 16 years ago. I have never done maintenance ( though I know I should), and only had to replace one minor part (related to the pilot valve I think). It’s great when you have company over, or someone in the family likes to take long, steamy showers.
It’s not a hot water heater. You don’t heat hot water. It’s a water heater.
Too funny...good catch. Though one could argue down here you are just about heating hot water. In the summer the ambient water temperature is pretty warm. I wouldn't even use the hot water for showering if it weren't a mixer valve. Anyway, I edited it; thanks for the catch.
Flight - If you don't heat hot water, how in the world do you get water to boil?
Flight - I suppose that would depend on what your definition of "hot" water is.
Very good point. I mean as long as we're getting technical. I thought this was somewhat humorous at first, but ole Flight seems to really care about this hot water thing. Anyway, Happy New Year to you both.
This was recommended to me at 2AM... I don't regret it
😂
NOTE: My parents got a Bosch tankless about 8 years ago and they found that the system has settings for minimum draw on the hot water line to trigger the firing of the heater, but regardless of the sensitivity settings, it sill would not kick on when it was supposed to. Maybe 5 years later (when this video was created) they're made better, but I'm still skeptical.
Extremely helpful! Making a decision whether to go tankless. This video presented information that made my decision easy: sticking with conventional tank. As to longevity of the unit, at my age of 80 , the difference between 15 ands 20 years isn't top of my list!
BEST thing I did. Was go TANKLESS savings in gas alone was $20 a month easy. Get a tank less with sofrwater
And there is another "common-sense" reasoning to help make a decision .....AGE OF THE HOME OWNER.
.
Matt misses one key issue regarding performance: cycling at low flow rates. My previous home in Texas had two Rinnai natural gas tankless units, mounted on the exterior. If I wanted to take a warm, not hot, shower, as I would usually want to after a hot afternoon of yard work, the tankless unit was a big problem. When setting a shower to a medium warm temperature, the flow through the hot side is just a trickle. The Rinnai apparently has a minimum BTU on the burner, and it would shut off if the flow wasn't sufficient, blasting me with cold water. The only workaround I found was to open a tap on hot during my shower. This would never be an issue with a standard water heater or a hybrid (small tank) water heater.
Should of bought correct capacity and you want them indoors
I KNEW IT!!!
There is more than one Matt!
Multiplicity confirmed!
A cost breakdown (initial + operating) would be nice. If I have to upgrade my gas meter and run a 1" gas line, that is going to push out the payback period of a tankless system.
Thank you for clearing up this explanation and making my decision much easier.
He fooled you son
Love the little bit of extra put into the cinematography in this episode. Helps tell the story
Really though? Did it?
Thanks for that info. I didn't realize the annual or bi annual ramifications of tankless. Loved the production value on this video.
If you pay for the service it is costly. I bypassed a 6 year old tankless propane water heater for my mom. Repair and service was almost the cost of a 40 gal. new electric one. I may DYI it later.
Pretty good city water and a softener has me trouble and maintenance free for well over ten years now. Can't even remember how long ago, but I love it and my utility bills since I'm single and don't have to heat a tank 24 hours a day.
One benefit of the tank type is that in a power outage, natural disaster, disruption in utilities, you have a built store of potable water which you can easily access via the drain valve
Damn skippy -smart man.
@@franklinholbrook924 and with most tank type gas HWT you will still have hot water if power goes out most tankless have to have 110 power.
Wow, grunting while pushing that shopping cart. I'm convinced.
That's the first deterring argument; tank heaters can lead to grunting. Not to mention the sneaky mind association snuck in there: getting tank heater > pushing shopping cart > you become homeless.
When I worked for a dairy I helped install 2 of these tankless water heaters, here's the crazy thing 1 of those tankless is far more efficient then 6 tank water heaters going at once.
Thanks Matt. This was EXTREMELY helpful as I’m about to do a complete house remodel.
Great video, thank you. My tank just went out this week. I decided to spend the extra money on tankless heater since it was needing replaced anyway. This video gave me some comfort about my purchase.
I replaced a tankless unit around 2010, that unit had been converted from coal gas to natural gas in 1966, so probably more than 50 years of operation. My problem was if there was any pressure the water ran cold so I was graduly running the water at lower pressure until I decided to replace it.
I installed this type of hot water heater about 20 years ago. I'd never go back to a tank. It's not savings that I like it. I have enough hot water to fill my big jetted tub, run the shower at the same time without running out. I've had a lot of houseguest sand never ran out of hot water. My Ranii has yet to fail me!
Exactly. I've had a tankless unit for over 25 years....20 for the first and so far 5 years on the second. I have well water with a hit/miss water softener. I have never, ever flushed a unit. I was chatting with a couple different plumber friends about putting a tankless in my cabin to replace an ancient electric. Both responded...OMG NO!. I've run one long enough to know better.
I will say though that if you have a tankless that is a long run from some faucets you might not get what you need. If you are accustomed to running lots of hot water in different rooms at once, same. My original water heater strongly against using mixer faucets , they didn't keep a strong enough demand to keep the flow valve open.
@@mdoe37 Why would you want to heat hot water?
Someone had to say it, right?
@@anncoffman4448 Someone had to be stupid enough to use the term.
Gas, not electric though, right?
I love the editing on this video. Especially the part towards the end where you are walking into the shot while still walking out of it.
Thanks
My experience with tankless is that the labyrinth needs cleaning, especially if you live in Florida. Unless you have a water softener. The old tanks need a flushing but it's a lot easier, hook up a hose and flush. I also know the electric ones need a 50 amp dedicated service. I think the maintenance cost has to be rolled into the equation, esp if you're hiring a plumber once a year. !
Depending on the size of the unit can go all the way up to 150 amp service for 5+ bathroom homes
I know that you did this video several years ago, but maybe you could do an updated version of this and also talk about the potential problem of the limited increase in water temperature. I live in western PA and have a well. Ground water temps can be down in the low 50's most of the time. I've researched putting in tankless, but through the research I've done, temperature increases are typically only about 35 degrees. So starting out with 50 degree water and adding 35 degrees only gets the water temp up to about 85 degrees. With most people wanting a moderately warm shower at just around 105 degrees, the tankless heaters I have researched don't come close to even moderate. Seems I'd have to have at least 2 of these in line with each other to reach the temps my wife likes to shower at of around 110-115 degrees. Thanks for all the great videos. Love your show and all the great info you provide.
It's a tankless job, but somebody has to do it.
My only regret is I didn't get here in time to say it first, hats off to you!
Tanks, but no tanks.
BOOOOOO! I didn't think of it first, so BOOOOOOOOO!
Conservative Copwatch he didn't.. someone else posted it two weeks earlier than him..
mattp1482 I didn't see that post. I'll have to scan through and find it. Thanks for letting me know.
This is a really great explanation of the difference between these units. I appreciate that it is presented in a non-biased way, presenting the pros and cons of each. I would also have included that switching to tankless involves some electrical work that also adds to the cost.
And is the electric goes out, so does the hot water with the tankless type. Keep in mind Californias rolling blackouts.
the tank type is also a convenient emergency water storage system.
the monthly savings, going tankless, will be eaten up and more by the plumber's annual visit. And even if that weren't the case, how many months for it to pay for itself, for both models, would be nice to know.
Install the tankless water heater inside a garage or other inside space to keep it from freezing in the winter
@@AnX8765 if it's gas you had hot water. Electric is a different issue. I would never buy an electric tankless. They use too much electric when the rates are higher. You need 120 amps of electric for an average home. You can buy 80 amp units but the water won't be as hot as a 120 amp model. 30 amp units are only for sinks. We had an instant hot water heater but ours had a stone lined tank. That's what they used in the early fifties. Our water softener matched the water heater. It too was stone lined. It also used table salt. You had to buy 2 twenty five pound bags. Well back to the water heater. There was a coil inside the heater and after 20 years the coil needed replaced. It was made of copper and with brass fittings. The gas flame went up the center of the coil you can see the flame if you removed the cover. You had instant hot water when it was running. The water in the tank could stay hot for hours before the water needed reheated. I guess the water cycled though the tank I was too young to ask my dad how the tank worked all I knew we always had hot water.
I was evaluating these back when you published this but just found your channel today.
At the time, it would have cost me about $3000 MORE to install the tankless. With two of us, the return was longer than I plan to be in the house. It wasn't worth it. Moving from the then-24-year-old 40-gallon tank that came with the house to a new 50-gallon tank, all our comfort needs have been met. While tankless might have helped with eventual resale, I do not think we'll be hurting to sell.
Good video. Nice quality.
Installed a tankless heater. LOVED it. They are sold on savings, but true, they don't save a lot monthly. In fact, you may use the same or more gas because if you have a tankless, you will tend to use more. I did. Especially since you can take a shower for a long time...such as having company in there with you.
Myth 2... yeh, most of us know it's not instant.
Myth 3... well, a friend who owns a plumbing company installed one many years ago. They have 7 kids. He wanted to test it and see how long it would last with ZERO maintenance. It's still going strong after 10 years. Unbelievable. I wouldn't recommend that, but the maintenance on a tankless is not the pain they make it out to be.
Now, the initial cost is significant. If you hire it done, you will never recoup that cost. I installed myself. Wasn't too tough. But I've had plumbing experience somewhat. Plus I saved the huge cost because I installed when the tax deduction was given up to half the install cost way back when.
All that said, it was great. I didn't maintain it but every couple years. I also didn't buy it for cost savings. I wanted hot water forever. And I could run my shower and a kitchen faucet 24 hours without running out. Period. (Yes, it was in a northern climate where many local plumbers said "It won't work".)
Doug Fresh i
Using mine in Alaska for domestic hot water and hydronic heating. No savings in the winter compared to an old tank and boiler, but in the summer, the modulated flame and electronic temperature control cut my fuel costs way down. The coaxial vent pipe also helps since I don't need to bring in fresh - but cold - outside air for combustion.
It's absolutely fantastic and I don't understand why tanks are still even a thing anymore.
Nice. The only reason tank type heaters still sell millions is cost. Period.
Eventually tankless will dominate the market. New homes will be built with tankless in design so that they are not so expensive to retrofit.
Doug Fresh I was going the tankless way but as I kept purchasing the required parts the cost was astronomical. I decided to go with a gas power vent that is electronically controlled with no standing pilot light. I also purchased the warranty that gives me total replacement until 2025. I did install it myself and used 2” pvc to vent the unit out of the laundry room via a window. I replaced the glass with plywood and sealed it off from the elements. I have a old iron tub that’s very deep and I can sit in the tub for hours and still have scalding hot water readily available.
This unit is a option for people who don’t have the funds for a tankless yet can get the benefits of one for a lot less money. But as you and I know that doing the install yourself saved us big money still for the price I would take the same route again.
Thanks for your input on the tankless and I hope that both of our experiences are able to help someone with their decision.
Good points. Mainly, the goal is that each installation provides the hot water needed. If we accomplish that, within our budget and operating costs, we've succeeded.
Not a fan of extended warranties. However, knowing the failure rate of tank type heaters today, might be good. Not to mention those electronic ignitions are pricey.
Also, retrofitting a house with the power vent or tankless heaters can't always be done. Good Luck!
You forgot to mention the government rebates when installing the energy efficient systems. Mine was $750 for the unit
and $150 for each zone valve.
@Francis Kowalski, what’s a zone valve?
What's a zone value? (1)
Francis, you've had a year to answer about this zone valve thing and you've failed us all. Lazy ass.
How about talking about hybrid systems, where you combine a "low" temp tank unit to supply individually placed small electric and gas tankless units that are placed wherever hot water is needed.
1:01 $225 in PROPANE, 1:08 $19 a month in NATURAL GAS I love your videos and appreciate what I learn here.
I enjoyed your videos - thank you! Another factor regarding savings or cost is the price of water. I have tankless water heater with a built in circulating pump of which saves on cost of my water bill.
My favorite thing is when my customers ask me "what about those waterless water heater"
It does have less water..... running through it lol
Scott Russell Tankless is a funny name and difficult to register in the brain.
Ooooohhh....😮 Do you install them?😜
Scott Russell not much different than when they ask for a hot water heater........(not sure why you’d spend money to heat hot water)
@@kalikasurf I put cold water in mine.
Just convinced me to buy tankless. Thanks for the video!
Thank you for doing this video I just bought a house where the tancos water heater I've never had one before now I know a little bit more than I did thank you again
Great info Matt. If you are a single person or couple and don't use much hot water, tank less is the way to go.
I’ve had mine for 16 yrs. I do have a softener and it keeps going strong. The flush is way too easy to call a pro.
Its to create jobs...
If it’s so easy how is it done properly sir it’s more than just a flush
@@ericb8867 OK, Plumber
Hey! Thank you for the information on the water heaters 🤗 . Do you have one on HVC heat pumps as well ?
Thanks. I was just wondering about these.
To qualify myself I was a licensed plumber for 35 years. If you are switching to tankless from tank, first add an electric circuit near the installation point because the tank didn't require one ($60-$150). Second replace the gas line all the way to the gas meter in 90 percent of installations (unless that place is real close to the gas meter). The reason: Tank style burned less than 50,000 btuh and tankless burns 200,000 btuh. This requires a larger gas line to deliver the proper amount of gas determined by the distance to the gas meter. Chart can be found in the Uniform Plumbing Code. Third replace the combustion waste vent from heater to above roof because: Oh, it's burning more gas. Chart can be found in the Uniform Plumbing Code. Conclusion: Starting with a higher price tag to begin with and the probable replacement of the gas line, combustion waste pipe and installation of an electric circuit I really don't see savings, especially if users of the system like long hot showers at 200,000 btuh. Also the comparisons are always based on the smallest tankless, if you have more than 2 baths you could be moving the gas consumption far north of that 200,000 btuh number!
webswabie 1/2" gas line needed for 199,000 btu. Navien tankless. With recerc pump built in. Nothing better. 240a. We install a shitload of them. Startup is costly.
Absolutely true!
And, you must know some really cheap electricians. ;-) In my area, it's a minimum $150 for the call out. The cost of adding that circuit will most likely be closer to $500 than $100.
Ditto on the upsized gas line feed and the flue. With so many homes being two story and the flue vent running through a limited size, no access chase spanning both stories to the roof, one is looking at a $500 to $1,000 cost for the vent upgrade.
webswabie thank you
@@tharais theres no need for a tankless to be on it's own circuit. They pull a maximum of 5 amps.
@@tharais and theres a reason sidewall termination exists for the flue. Added on to it, most tankless installs do not require a full dedicated upsized gas line.
With our 80 gal electric tank we've been able to have hot water up to 3 days during blackouts. It's one of the things keeping me from going tankless.
If you had a black out how would you have hot water?
@@scottholman6209 with an 80 Gal tank it stays warm as long as you don't use it too much which brings in cold water.
@@scottholman6209 when do you really need hot water
I went tankless to gain floor space. If you have people in your house that runs the hot water heater out and want to save, it might be better to get a smaller tank with equal wattage. It'll force them out of the shower sooner and the smaller tank will recover quicker.
Awesome video!! Thanks for the useful info!! Have a blessed day!!
Fantastic video, with content as well presented like this your channel is going to fly high!
I loved the walk in effects in the middle of the video. It also shows you guys are thinking about what the video will look like before recording as opposed to just pressing the record button and rolling freestyle.
Thanks for the explanation. This a hugely popular method in the UK, as gas is super common in houses and tower blocks built before the 2000's. We refer to them as gas boilers and Bosch-Worcester are the most popular brand this side of the world.
Cheers.
I asked my dad who lives in London how often he flushes his heater (~30 years old) he looked confused, sneered then shrugged.
Why wouldn't a commercial be well produced?
what he didn't mention was that you have to use 3/4 inch gas pipe and you have to run a tank only line. from a tee at the meter then straight to the unit.
Ryan Q
It's been working for 30 years, he's doing it right.
Super great video!! I have an "old technology" (no electronics) Bosch 125NG and I love it!! If I could find another one for my 2nd unit I would take it in a second!! About 10 years usage so far, zero trouble!! About 1/2 the gas of my old tank type!! All the hot water you want/ need!!
To me the "no savings argument is the myth" I installed a Bosch 660 outdoor unit 7 years ago. My tank failed at about 6 years of service and I wanted to get the heater out of my garage. My main concern was more space in garage and unlimited hotwater with scant hope of reduced gas bills. The tankless delivered on my main concerns an shocked my with how much it reduced my summer gas bills.
Have to respect a guy that isn't afraid to point out the drawbacks of a system he actually uses
Matt, time to revisit this video. If you're building a 100 year house, it makes sense to think about the cost of energy, and possibly water, going forward.
You're wrong on the recirc pump being the only way to get instant hot water. As you later point out, the tankless heaters can go pretty much anywhere so putting them next to the hot water taps makes sense. You don't waste heat recirculating water to reheat it and you don't wait for the cold water to flush.
You can also install a water softener so the annual maintenance issue goes away as well. Your laundry is cleaner to boot.
Good point. Regarding the placement of the tankless water heater, it's important to remember that some tankless are gas powered, and those consume oxygen hence cannot be installed wherever.
I've heard first hand of these getting installed and going bad right away (electric). The solution was to install a water filter on the inlet side as contaminates were clogging it.
I appreciate this video showing pros and cons. My house has no gas so I was looking at an electric tankless. I was looking at $600 or more for the wiring upgrade required. That and some other reasons made me pass on tankless for now. Maybe in the future though.
I’d highly recommend you check out the heat pump water heater‘s. Rheem is now on their fourth or fifth generation and they’re very efficient. Use half the electricity of a standard electric tank. I put a generation one in a house seven years ago and it is still going strong.
I'll look into it. Thanks.
They seem like a no brainer for anyone who has electric hot water heater and runs a dehumidifier in the same area as their water heater.
SyberPrepper .... I am a Journeyman Plumber and DO NOT go electric tankless... you need 150 amps almost another complete panel.... go tank type and I recommend Bradford White. Peace ✌️
Agree on the heat pump electric tank water heater. If you ever look into going solar, it will reduce your maximum electrical load at any given time of day as well. Electric tankless water heaters are beasts for the short time that they run and can require a massive power draw. As the other commenter suggested, if you're looking for a whole-house model, you may negate any savings due to the possibility of needing to upgrade your electrical circuits just to run it in the first place.
Thank you for sharing this video, in a house with 4 bathrooms and one kitchen one instant water heater does it work?
Pretty sure this was the first video that introduced me to Matt way back when!
These models are already old in Europe. We have condensing ones now that save more gas.
It’s very rare that I come across one with a tank nowadays in the Netherlands
Eustace King wow, can you give us a name or a web site to find what you use, lease and thank you, God bless
People have been using condensing boilers for hot water for decades. Bonus is it also works great for radiant heating and can also be used in conjunction with air handlers and coils for hot air heating of you don't want to run water heating.
@@pennyjohoc google: intergas/remeha/valliant. Those are the top brands and way more eficient than this fake knock off he shows here
I had a tankless for 4 years. It was ok untill one day it wasnt. I now have my old tank back and I'm glad.
What happened
My grandma had a gas water heater in her house. The entire time I lived with her I never remember having any issues with it as far as maintenance. When her house burned down we were able to save the old one and a friend of ours put it in his moms house and it still works fine today. I checked the date on it and it was built in 1986 when the house was built. Her new house has electric water heater and we will see how long it last.
Great show, very informative.
Actually there is also difference in flue sizes and direct vent vs. not.
Then if you use a vent damper or not.
You still have venting requirements if its outside. Cannot be under an operable window if 2 story. But close.
Great video 👍 I have a 16 year old tankless heater. Flush it once a year myself! Just as easy as changing the batteries in the smoke detectors!
I think this article sold me on a tankless unit. Thank you.
Love my tankless. Have water softener.
Did flushing myself on tankless in my rental units. Easy to diy with 5 gal pail , two short garden hoses, a sump pump and 5 gallons of white vinegar.
Is flushing a tankless harder or about the same as flushing a tank?
Decent video got a little bit of a chuckle out of the beginning keep up the good work ...
Thanks for making these videos, they are great and helpful for DIY community. I am also planning to upgrade to tankless water heater next week. I live in Texas and my unit will be in a closet 2nd floor. My vents are going over the roof. I do not have a luxury to drill a new hole for the new exhaust. I am thinking to use the existing vent for the final 2 feet of the pipe (PVC pipe from the unit to the roof and connecting PCV to the metal pipe 1 to 2 feet below the roof). Also I am planning to use intake pipe ending in attic instead of going out. Attic is huge not sure if it makes difference. If possible, can you please let me know if it is OK to connect to the last two feet of the existing exhaust and leaving intake end in the attic. Appreciate your (any one in the community) response. Advance thanks.
I just watched your tank less water heater...I'm interested in one now for my home remodel job...Do they come in electric models.I don't have gas in my home...?...thanks 4 the information..
Look into Navien
Well said
We had a week long power outage last year. We still had hot water while our neighbor with electric tankless had cold water.
Pluses and minuses
That's why my tankless runs on gas with a solar panel and a battery.
Doesn't matter for us. We're on a well system, so no power no water anyway - solar would be a nice addition. But then again, we're mostly in the shaded woods so much for that. Generator would be the way to go.
We love our natural gas generator for this reason.
I have a tankless that circulates hot water to my old tank water heater. Water comes from the tank which is pretty much instantly hot, and is endless because the tankless supplies it. Haven’t noticed a change in my gas or water bill.
Sorry Matt - but the incentive we have in San Diego, CA, for getting a Tankless unit is the $500 rebate. Our water cost is HUGE out here as well, so the cost associated with water savings is also significant. Still love your videos and I'm always learning. Thanks.
I don't know if things like that exist in the US but here in Germany, we use a combination of those two systems.
You can add a tank to your tankless unit to get a more stable temperature and the possibilty of more than one outlet using hot water at the same time.
The tank works as kind of a buffer for hot water.
I have a Navien condensing combination unit as you described. It has three stainless heat exchangers and I presume stainless addresses the corrosion inherent in heat exchangers with mineral build up as a consequence. Maintenance seems to be flushing with descaling solution or vinegar to remove scale build up.
i like this idea a lot, it only makes sense to heat room temperature water rather than cold water from the ground.
You. An piggy back 2 normal water heaters say 40 gallons and have almost limitless hot water, you do need more space and can control temps on each tank also increases life of both tanks.
Average Ground water is 52 degrees. It makes sense in the summer when the auxiliary tank is removing heat from within your house but in the winter it would be putting an additional load on your furnace.
It's here but rare. The tank takes away the hot cold sandwich and let's u use minimal flows of hot water while maintaining temperature. These set ups are expensive and generally for most homes a normal hot water tank will provide more than enough hot water. It's $800 for a water heater here and $300 to install it. A tankless is minimum $2000 by the time your done. Add to that another tank and the costs are very high. Only worth it if u need lots of hot water for showering or u have a jecuzi tub to fill.
We are going tankless on our build however, if a tank is maintained as specified by a manufacturer it will last for 20-30 years as well. Most people don’t empty the tank once a year and check their anode rod. If a flush is conducted regularly and the anode rod replaced when necessary, they will last a long long time. Great video and thanks for your wisdom, as always!
He doesn't take into the high initial cost to install a tankless hot water heater (dedicated gas line, high velocity gas meter and brass connections and condensate line) easily in excess of 3000 dollars and not appropriate for extremely cold northern climates. Many cases of failure. I have solar hot water with a traditional tank heater. Flush biannually and install a whole house filter at the meter and you will get long life out of your system.
tommydjohnsonjr ... 20-30 years ... more like 10-15... I am a Journeyman Plumber and I absolutely know... peace ✌️
Well then, please explain why the tank style water heaters in my two homes are still going strong. One is currently 20 years old, and the other is 45 years old. And neither has had the amount of maintenance it should have.
Jim Price ... Manufacturers build in failure these days ... I have been to Bradford White 3 times... AO Smith 2 times and American once... they build them for replacement not longevity... sucks but true... peace ✌️
Michael Bala i hung a 500$ tankless on the exterior of my house. It vents directly to the air and has a short run to my propane tank. It was very cheap to install.
Very informative, Thank you.
Hi Matt,
I’m currently having built a log cabin on a trailer from Lancaster log cabins. Included in my cabin is a regular tank water heater, but I sprung extra $ for a tankless water heater. They install the water heater outside on the rear of the trailer. In speaking with a few friends, most have agreed concerns about the water heater freezing in the winter months when no hot water is sought. I know nothing about these systems, although I’ve attempted to find out info on them. I can still have them put a tank water heater in, I’m not sure which way to go.
I’d like to use the cabin in the winter months, It is going to be in the poconos (Pennsylvania)
I may try to winterize each weekend I’m done using. In your professional opinion would it be better for me to just stick with the tank water heater or get the tankless? Any info you can provide would be greatly appreciated.
Oh the tankless water heater is made by rinnai on demand V53dep
Are both energy guides based on the same cost per therm of NG? it looks like the newer tankless is based upon $1.09 per therm
the sales guy in the video first refers to propane with the tankless heater, then switches to natural gas. He dont know what fuel the unit he is trying to sell uses.
Let me add you did get the positive aspects perfect... I admire your style, I just thought there were a few very important things missing.
Thx
@ R Rybiczki,
🔵 Since you mention it, feel like sharing those 'Cons'?...Or are you just going to keep us all in suspense?
Installation is double the cost you need a larger gas line and a electric receptacle and a place to drain condensate and appropriate vent system
Could installing a whole home RO filtration system behind the heater prevent the need to flush a tankless?
Thanks Matt, great information there.
My AC heat exchanger heats my water. I only need to plug my tank in from November through February.
any link for the hardware?
When comparing the fuel cost estimates between an older and newer appliance, does the older one's cost per unit of gas match the cost on the newer one's label? Not sure how often those costs are updated on those labels, but if the cost of fuel is different, one would need to take that into account.
The cost difference because of inflation is not noted. 2010 dollars are “worth” more than 2017 dollars.
@@danwilliams582 You also have to look at the cost per a Therm in gas ,electric that would equate to the cost per kwh. So the answer is probably no as typically the cost per a therm goes up over time.
One of the issues I have found with water heaters in condos is the damage done due to flooding doe to water heater failure.
Matt, we love your channel, but I have one correction to make. The instantaneous hot water heater was not invented in Europe or Japan; it was invented in our hometown of Pittsburgh! As far as I know, the Ruud water heater was the first. We had one in our house and as a young man, I marvelled at the look, sound, quality and performance of this cast iron and copper beast.
For me, it’s size that matters. Big tank , essentially in my kitchen, versus the tankless outside.
Several years ago I decided to replace my tank type natural gas water heater before it failed. It was 12 years old and several of my neighbors had theirs fail. It was going to cost at least an additional $1,000 to go tankless because it was a retrofit.
In this house, the only gas appliance that is used during the summer is the water heater. My gas bill runs about $15 per month those months. Half of that is account/meter costs and taxes. Matt is correct. The gas use differential is slight. There was no way I could ever get those extra costs recouped. Plus I like the idea of having the possibility of a 50 gallon emergency water supply on hand. And my tank style heater can run even during a power failure.
Mine sits in a relatively warm insulated attached garage adjacent to the furnace. This area has very soft water naturally. Forgot that one of the things failing on the builder grade water heater I replaced was the deteriorating plastic intake pipe. The slime/muck was clogging the clothes washer's hot water valve screen. I had drained the unit several times and there was little sediment each time. While I was at it, I went from a 40 gallon to a 50 gallon fast recovery unit. Works great. Never run out of hot water. But then, I don't fill a swimming pool sized tub either.
At 5¢ per cubic metre, how much will you save by installing a $200 recirculation pump that requires an electrical outlet under the sink?
Edit: 50¢ per cubic metre
I checked my most recent bill. And like your pricing structure our annual sewer charges are based on water use during some of the winter months. My two month bill for actual sewer use is just under $6 and actual water use is just over $6. The other $130 are fixed costs. Water and sewer use costs combined are about one half cent a gallon, if I calculated correctly. Based on my costs, your worst case use is 160 gallons monthly or, for simplicity sake, $1. Your break even on the $200 pump would be 200 months or nearly 17 years. The pumps cost money to operate. They don't last forever. May require some maintenance, clean screens etc. And introduce several more potential leak points. And if it hasn't been scheduled to run when you need it, and you have to run water yourself, you missed a payback. Also, if there are multiple people running water in various parts of the house through the day, the run to the MB bath likely requires less water wasted to get to hot than the first morning shower. I have always been intrigued by them, but considered it a luxury and not a way to save money. Even with the pump in place, you do waste several cups of water each time. In the past, there was a type that had a low voltage button that one pressed to activate the pump to run until it sensed hot water at your use/button site. At least you would avoid the cost of running the pump for no reason hours a day. But better have a good memory and have hit the button before showering. (I also don't believe the pumps save much of the cost to heat the dumped water, as the cooled off water gets recirculated into the water heater and has to be heated again.)
(You can always capture the cold waste water in a bucket and use it to water plants, or, I suppose, flush the toilet or fill the clothes washer. But that takes dedication or a true drought crisis.)
Just want to say, unless you have a generator, modern gas fired water heaters don't run during a power outage.
Mine was installed in late 2014 and it isn't connected to electricity. And I just checked on a big box store's website, they continue to sell natural gas water heaters that don't use external electric power.
One of my neighbors has tankless. With the recent weather, his pipes froze and without electricity, they failed him. I am not an expert nor a plumber so I don’t know the technical workings of a tankless, but my pipes didn’t freeze and my gas heated tanks worked great without power for many days. Blessed....
I thought there are gas tankless water heaters. Wouldn't the same thing have happened to your neighbor had he had an electric water heater as well?
Fake news
@@electricaf365 😂
Many years ago, I was visiting my husband's parents in China. They had tankless "on-demand" installed in their new home. They had three bathrooms in the main portion of the house, and a kitchen...of course. There are two balconies... a front balcony and a smaller back balcony off the kitchen that leads to a small private bed and bath for their maid. Each bathroom has its own on-demand tankless heater which is hidden in the vanities cabinetry. The kitchen also has its own heater as well which is directly hooked up to the kitchen sink. It was amazing to me because as soon as the water was turned on, it was instantly hot...As there were no hot water pipes in the home, just cole that would split into the heater at each water point. After returning back to America, my husband and I moved from Savannah, Georgia, to Denver, Colorado. We did a lot of renovations to our home and that was one of the items on the list. I would never have anything different. However, it is disappointing that America's price point of purchasing them haven't caught up with what much of the rest of the world finds as the norm. Currently, I am in China, As we now live half the year in China for family and business and the other portion of the year in Denver, and have been doing so for 4 years now. Our home in China also has tankless on-demand as well. If you are someone who is teetering between choices, I can guarantee you that if you give in to your curiosity you will be very happy you made that choice.
I had a nat.gas 40 gal tank. Had it for 44 years and it did not need to be replaced ... I removed the thermocouple, used a bit of sandpaper on the thermocouple and put the same unit back in and it worked again....I never changed the anode or never ever drained it and it continued to work just fine.(but was changed out because plumbers were freaking out that it was still original equipment) so looked into tankless and inquired at multiple places about it....the places said the tankless were ripped out after a year for a tank type. People did not like them. So, I went with a tank electric this time(as I needed a gas fitter to hook up the gas unit@$100.) I did disassemble the gas hotwater tank that was in there originally, and could have gone to 60 years on that tank easy. There was no rust or weak spots in the tank.
My electric tank maybe will last 10 years. They are making them cheaper. Am sad. Oh well.
for $700 bucks, you can find electric water heaters with 316L stainless tanks and a lifetime warranty. For a gas tanked water heater with a stainless tank, you're looking at a commercial unit that starts at 3 grand. So you're not doomed if you want a good electric water heater.
I would not use electric for anything because it drives your electric bill up too much. I have had a all electric bldg in the past and while it might have seemed alright from the start when winter came especially we discovered that gas was much cheaper and would have been a better choice. We didn't have one but good luck hope it works out for you, just wanted to tell you my electric vs gas nightmare.
Tankless’s are good for small homes and condos where there’s only one or two people and they pay their own water bill.
NEVER!!! put a tankless in a rental unit (like a 3 family etc..) you pay the water bill and yes they usually pay the fuel- but! when it comes to someone standing in the shower for an hour a day... water bill wins every time!
Also you can’t put a “instant hot” recirculating system on a tankless... not without modifying it to have a storage tank to circulate the water with... most tankless work on flow and a domestic recirculating pump won’t get it to fire, and even if it could- you’d be wasting fuel.
And I don’t care why anyone tells you- if you have a big family with multiple bathrooms you WILL feel a temperature change when you’re in the shower and other hot water fixtures are being used on and off.
Tankless are good for small homes, condos, and mobile homes and only if owner occupied... otherwise do you self a favor and stick with a tank... oh and if you are renting a one bedroom to someone- a 30 gallon is PLENTY!
Your paying for it!
Sincerely- a licensed plumber 🧐
Good insight, thnkx for your info
On rentals, the tenants pay the utilities so it’s a non-issue, and it’s a plus knowing the hot water lasts longer, and the the tank will live longer.
@@oakjim206 Not always. Consider a rental that's on well and septic. The luxury of endless hot water leads to hour long showers... with the resultant overloaded septic bed and potentially a dry well. Not good. Also, many leases include water, tenant pays gas, electricity and phone/internet/cable.
I like the Intellihot brand. That sweet stainless steel heat exchanger is a beast and resists scale like no other.
You did a really good job thanks