Watching this video in 2019, after this videos original posting, hearing Jimmy talk about wanting to be a part of spoiler season, and y'alls aspirations and dreams to see this channel grow... Then being here in the present where its happened could bring a tear of joy to anyone's eye. So glad for everyone who is a part of Command Zone. Much love, keep up the good work :D
My biggest trick (building on your own suggestion of putting on a character mask) is what I call "Being the Dungeon Master", or "The Revenge of Vorthos". Most of it is creating a narrative. If you are telling a story you can create subtle connections for people that don't seem like meddling, or orders, or politicking. DO NOT set yourself up as the hero of the story, that increases the chance that the trick will be seen through. Reference villains when referring to one player, use hero references for another, and maintain the segregation. Try to get any extraneous players to buy into the drama. If you can do it right not only have you hacked the minds of your opponents you've made the game more enthralling for them too. People will make a story to go around the game in their heads, at least to some small extent, unless you give them a better story to listen to. Control the narrative, control the game. And since Magic has all that backstory and art it gives you a common language to hide your manipulation in. This works disturbingly well if you are the game master in an RPG that the players at the table are also playing in (especially if the game has been a long runner or you are the designated GM for a group that plays many different shorter games). Another good tip in the narrative is to cast yourself as the random forces of the universe, if told right (speaking in passive voice is oddly helpful) it can buy a lot of distraction/forgiveness/apathy. These are not an easiest tricks to pick up, I have GM'd a lot of pen and paper roleplaying games, and over time added guile to a behavior I already had. It provides a beautiful cloak under which you can disguise many of the tricks from the video in an extra layer subtlety. The hard part is learning when to shut up.
I love the 'feel my wrath' part, its how I lay my Zedruu deck. Its really chill, no Steel Golems or Illusion of Grandeur like most people do with it. Its about sitting back, pillow forting a bit, play politics to get everyone else fighting, and punishing anyone who tries to come after me. Our friend Tod has a similar sort of 'feel my wrath' reputation that he will just go after someone mercilessly if they attack him first, but it works because no one ever wants to be the first to attack him so it super works in his favor.
"Jimmy, don't attack me ..." *Josh scribbles in his notepad* "Josh, what are you writing?" "Oh I'm just noting down political tricks I use to deceive people." Huge tell, haha.
I would like to see a Round Table episode where the players break down their political moves in detail, as well as analysis of their effects. Also, it would be funny to watch JLK touch his fingers to his temple Professor X style whenever he employs a mind trick.
When I first read the title of this episode, I thought it was a pun on Pili-Pala, and I was like: "How could they make an entire episode out of talking about one creature? I mean, it's good, but..." 😅
I'd be careful, some of this advice sounds like it would only work on a very non-confrontational player. If I look at your cards and you say "are you thinking of doing something?" my instinctive reaction is to reply "should I?". If someone pokes me they are automatically going to be my target because I can assume they have some reason they DON'T want me to attack.
I enjoyed this episode immensely. y'all had me smiling and laughing while I was chopping limes at work. thanks for brightening my day. y'all are my favorite Magic podcast.
no joke! I've checked out lots of podcasts and CZcams channels, and I enjoy yours the most. The episodes are just so much fun! The game with Melissa DeTora & the Professor was particularly entertaining. I wish everyone in the Magic community was as friendly and charming as the two of you.
juicykarkass We do our best to keep things as fun and informative as possible! Getting to bring real value to the game we love is a huge part of why we keep making content for the game -jimmy
What I love to do is to focus one guy early and only give the reason of: "I need to focus someone and I attack him because of reason X and he can combo out on turn Y and I know he will win the game if I don't knock him down a peg."
I enjoy when my table will agree to destroy that Iona that is only affecting me. They even know if I escape from her, I could just kill them, but they all know that I’d free someone else. It’s an unspoken relationship that we all have as players of Magic or any game really.
I love the point about playing less good cards. Its why I love Ghostly Prison but never play Blazing Archon. Ghostly Prison/Propaganda are just inconvenient reasons to sway someone to attack someone else because they'd rather play spells that turn then waste it attacking you when they could just attack someone else for free. Blazing Archon is a hard board lock, so its like issuing a challenge and just begging for attention.
My trick is swinging at them hard X times where X is the value of the damage they swing at me first. I've cracked back for 8 the turn after a player swung for 2 then like 10 the next time, most commander (markov), just to prove the point
Hey Josh and Jimmy. My wife and I want to come down to that Thai food place in noho. What should we order. Also lunch or dinner is on me in case u guys wanna join us!!
Somehow this feels a lot more like, "How to be a dick, an EDH Guide." Personally I won't use any of these, and a lot of folks in my playgroup definitely don't, but at the very least I can keep a look out for these things. As someone who holds her standards of "Group Hug" and "Fun Policing" very high, I'm hoping I'll be able to hold the reigns a lot better by recognizing more effectively when someone's being a politician rather than a player~
These episodes are great even for people that don't like to play this way because at least now you can look out for these mind games and be able to defend yourself against them. You have every right to defend yourself from these strategies but nobody has the right to tell another player how they should enjoy the game, so put those mental shields up. Politics are unavoidable in a multiplayer game where table talk is allowed, it's a part of the format whether you like it or not.
Exactly. Politics in Magic should be fun. I think they did get a bit too deep into the more evil and manipulative things that can make the game into an argument and not a game. But, it is good to know the tricks people use so you can recognize them and call out the aggressively manipulative people. I try and stick to the more honest threat assessments and group-hug type stuff getting other people to fight eachother instead of you, punishing people who try anything against you, and building and maintaining a stealthy board state until you can win in the end game.
You guys are fun to listen to, but you could be a bit more directed toward newer (not age, just experience) players... we respect your values for our kids, and respect when you don't talk down to the player (regardless of age). My son loves listening to y'all in the car... (my wife, less so much...LoL)
Ryan King I think we generally try to do this. It's impossible to tackle certain subjects though if we ONLY focus on newer players. Some episodes may be worth revisiting when that inexperienced player gets a bit more mileage under her/his belt.
+Ben It appears your streak of commentary on the channel is both negative and incisive. I'm not entirely sure what your goal is here, outside of being fairly rude, but we try to be inclusive on the channel. -jimmy
address some of the problems i've brought up with your other videos then Jimmy. you guys are doing something great that the community needs and that people can enjoy, but despite wanting to be inclusive i think you're actually demonstrating many of the characteristics that most EDH players despise by putting stuff like decree of annihilation on your top 10 lists and making top 10 lists where a card like oracle is ranked higher than survival of the fittest. i personally don't play a lot of tutors, but it's almost objectively wrong to claim that oracle is better than survival since survival can always get you oracle. it seems more like your lists are geared towards cards you have a special relationship with rather than holistic analysis. you're right, I shouldn't be rude and make personal attacks, and I will do my best to refrain from that for the sake of maintaining a pleasant community. address some of my other actual substantive comments so we can have an actual discussion on the issues i've brought up instead of just admonishing me for being negative. remember this is the internet. i am not a troll; I genuinely love EDH, online EDH content, and I appreciate what you guys are doing. SCG's 4-player versus series has been plagued with idiotic misplays and failures from a lack of attention to detail. don't follow in their footsteps and put out a supbar product and then call people mean for pointing it out.
+Ben I think the assumption that "most players despise" and really any kind of analysis that tries to understand the player group as a whole is not an easy path to take or find agreement with. The number of people that play this game and in different ways is why it flourishes. Also our inclusion of an item on a list does not mean we actively endorse a play style that is based on using that card. If you really take offense that we list an incredibly powerful card on a Top 10 list, then maybe watching this kind of content isn't up your alley. We strive to do the best we can, make as few mistakes as possible, but regardless of what we look to do we will never be perfect. If you really think the podcast is subpar, than that is entirely your opinion. I'm not just "calling you mean" for pointing it out. I'm stating that the way you're delivering your opinion online is not pleasant, fun to read, or productive in any way. So if you don't want to be a troll, don't act like one and incite a negative reaction to the way you deliver the comment. There are plenty of ways to address the issues you bring up. jimmy
Fair enough. And one last thing on the topic of most players despising certain cards: I travel and move a good deal for work and have had the opportunity as a result to play in many diverse metas around the country. I have played in LGSs, at tournaments, on Cockatrice, and at kitchen tables. Whereas most players have likely played only in their local meta with rare ventures outside, I have on a regular basis been playing in a fluctuating meta for the last 5 years and so I feel confident and qualified to say, unequivocally, that some things are toxic for the format, and most players concur on particular cards being inappropriate for play in a social format. My disappointment in a card like DoA being included in your Top 10 list can then be seen as, "Why would you include a card, while admittedly bonkers-level powerful, that almost nobody would ever want to play with or against?" Ultimately, your channel is serving as advice and guidance for thousands of players, many of them new and looking for ideas. So why instill in them that mass land destruction and full board resets are okay? And the response "because if you wanted to stop them you should have been playing blue" is not an intelligent or productive response. I have a deck in every color combination and colorless and I accept that certain decks are unlikely to be able to deal with certain problems, but nobody should have to play with people for 2 hours or more, have a DoA happen, and then play for 2 more hours because the DoA wasn't part of a wincon. Sorry for the long post, and for the vitriol. The anonymity of the CZcams comment section easily enables speaking without tact. Whatever else I have said, I do enjoy your podcast and only look forward to it getting better.
Watching this video in 2019, after this videos original posting, hearing Jimmy talk about wanting to be a part of spoiler season, and y'alls aspirations and dreams to see this channel grow... Then being here in the present where its happened could bring a tear of joy to anyone's eye. So glad for everyone who is a part of Command Zone. Much love, keep up the good work :D
11:22 is where the topic(s) start.
Thanks
Thanks mate
May be 4 years late but I just left my ITunes review with all the stars and praising words!
My biggest trick (building on your own suggestion of putting on a character mask) is what I call "Being the Dungeon Master", or "The Revenge of Vorthos". Most of it is creating a narrative. If you are telling a story you can create subtle connections for people that don't seem like meddling, or orders, or politicking. DO NOT set yourself up as the hero of the story, that increases the chance that the trick will be seen through. Reference villains when referring to one player, use hero references for another, and maintain the segregation. Try to get any extraneous players to buy into the drama. If you can do it right not only have you hacked the minds of your opponents you've made the game more enthralling for them too. People will make a story to go around the game in their heads, at least to some small extent, unless you give them a better story to listen to. Control the narrative, control the game. And since Magic has all that backstory and art it gives you a common language to hide your manipulation in. This works disturbingly well if you are the game master in an RPG that the players at the table are also playing in (especially if the game has been a long runner or you are the designated GM for a group that plays many different shorter games). Another good tip in the narrative is to cast yourself as the random forces of the universe, if told right (speaking in passive voice is oddly helpful) it can buy a lot of distraction/forgiveness/apathy. These are not an easiest tricks to pick up, I have GM'd a lot of pen and paper roleplaying games, and over time added guile to a behavior I already had. It provides a beautiful cloak under which you can disguise many of the tricks from the video in an extra layer subtlety. The hard part is learning when to shut up.
czcams.com/video/sSQ85ryb2Q0/video.html
haha what an idea. i'd like to play a game of commander with you. ^^
I love the 'feel my wrath' part, its how I lay my Zedruu deck. Its really chill, no Steel Golems or Illusion of Grandeur like most people do with it. Its about sitting back, pillow forting a bit, play politics to get everyone else fighting, and punishing anyone who tries to come after me. Our friend Tod has a similar sort of 'feel my wrath' reputation that he will just go after someone mercilessly if they attack him first, but it works because no one ever wants to be the first to attack him so it super works in his favor.
"Jimmy, don't attack me ..."
*Josh scribbles in his notepad*
"Josh, what are you writing?"
"Oh I'm just noting down political tricks I use to deceive people."
Huge tell, haha.
I would like to see a Round Table episode where the players break down their political moves in detail, as well as analysis of their effects.
Also, it would be funny to watch JLK touch his fingers to his temple Professor X style whenever he employs a mind trick.
When I first read the title of this episode, I thought it was a pun on Pili-Pala, and I was like: "How could they make an entire episode out of talking about one creature? I mean, it's good, but..." 😅
Welp, now I know who to directly attack if they try these. Knowledge is power. 😈
I'd be careful, some of this advice sounds like it would only work on a very non-confrontational player. If I look at your cards and you say "are you thinking of doing something?" my instinctive reaction is to reply "should I?". If someone pokes me they are automatically going to be my target because I can assume they have some reason they DON'T want me to attack.
I enjoyed this episode immensely. y'all had me smiling and laughing while I was chopping limes at work. thanks for brightening my day. y'all are my favorite Magic podcast.
juicykarkass We are happy to be able to provide you great entertainment while working :) thanks for listening!!
no joke! I've checked out lots of podcasts and CZcams channels, and I enjoy yours the most. The episodes are just so much fun! The game with Melissa DeTora & the Professor was particularly entertaining. I wish everyone in the Magic community was as friendly and charming as the two of you.
juicykarkass We do our best to keep things as fun and informative as possible! Getting to bring real value to the game we love is a huge part of why we keep making content for the game -jimmy
What I love to do is to focus one guy early and only give the reason of: "I need to focus someone and I attack him because of reason X and he can combo out on turn Y and I know he will win the game if I don't knock him down a peg."
All I do is genuinely compliment people and keep a poker face.
I enjoy when my table will agree to destroy that Iona that is only affecting me. They even know if I escape from her, I could just kill them, but they all know that I’d free someone else. It’s an unspoken relationship that we all have as players of Magic or any game really.
Who else is here after episode ep.141?
hi
TheOfficialChalupay 148
Guilty.
TheOfficialChalupay me!
Bonjour
I love the point about playing less good cards. Its why I love Ghostly Prison but never play Blazing Archon. Ghostly Prison/Propaganda are just inconvenient reasons to sway someone to attack someone else because they'd rather play spells that turn then waste it attacking you when they could just attack someone else for free. Blazing Archon is a hard board lock, so its like issuing a challenge and just begging for attention.
My trick is swinging at them hard X times where X is the value of the damage they swing at me first. I've cracked back for 8 the turn after a player swung for 2 then like 10 the next time, most commander (markov), just to prove the point
Hey Josh and Jimmy. My wife and I want to come down to that Thai food place in noho. What should we order. Also lunch or dinner is on me in case u guys wanna join us!!
Love you guys!!! :)
what art is before Liliana vess?
that is Naya Battlemage :)
poli-trippin' ...
Me after episode 200!
Does no one at your table not see through any of this?
Somehow this feels a lot more like, "How to be a dick, an EDH Guide." Personally I won't use any of these, and a lot of folks in my playgroup definitely don't, but at the very least I can keep a look out for these things. As someone who holds her standards of "Group Hug" and "Fun Policing" very high, I'm hoping I'll be able to hold the reigns a lot better by recognizing more effectively when someone's being a politician rather than a player~
These episodes are great even for people that don't like to play this way because at least now you can look out for these mind games and be able to defend yourself against them. You have every right to defend yourself from these strategies but nobody has the right to tell another player how they should enjoy the game, so put those mental shields up. Politics are unavoidable in a multiplayer game where table talk is allowed, it's a part of the format whether you like it or not.
Exactly. Politics in Magic should be fun. I think they did get a bit too deep into the more evil and manipulative things that can make the game into an argument and not a game. But, it is good to know the tricks people use so you can recognize them and call out the aggressively manipulative people. I try and stick to the more honest threat assessments and group-hug type stuff getting other people to fight eachother instead of you, punishing people who try anything against you, and building and maintaining a stealthy board state until you can win in the end game.
You guys are fun to listen to, but you could be a bit more directed toward newer (not age, just experience) players... we respect your values for our kids, and respect when you don't talk down to the player (regardless of age). My son loves listening to y'all in the car... (my wife, less so much...LoL)
Ryan King I think we generally try to do this. It's impossible to tackle certain subjects though if we ONLY focus on newer players. Some episodes may be worth revisiting when that inexperienced player gets a bit more mileage under her/his belt.
JLK sounds like he must whine a lot when playing...
+Ben It appears your streak of commentary on the channel is both negative and incisive. I'm not entirely sure what your goal is here, outside of being fairly rude, but we try to be inclusive on the channel. -jimmy
address some of the problems i've brought up with your other videos then Jimmy. you guys are doing something great that the community needs and that people can enjoy, but despite wanting to be inclusive i think you're actually demonstrating many of the characteristics that most EDH players despise by putting stuff like decree of annihilation on your top 10 lists and making top 10 lists where a card like oracle is ranked higher than survival of the fittest. i personally don't play a lot of tutors, but it's almost objectively wrong to claim that oracle is better than survival since survival can always get you oracle. it seems more like your lists are geared towards cards you have a special relationship with rather than holistic analysis. you're right, I shouldn't be rude and make personal attacks, and I will do my best to refrain from that for the sake of maintaining a pleasant community. address some of my other actual substantive comments so we can have an actual discussion on the issues i've brought up instead of just admonishing me for being negative.
remember this is the internet. i am not a troll; I genuinely love EDH, online EDH content, and I appreciate what you guys are doing. SCG's 4-player versus series has been plagued with idiotic misplays and failures from a lack of attention to detail. don't follow in their footsteps and put out a supbar product and then call people mean for pointing it out.
+Ben I think the assumption that "most players despise" and really any kind of analysis that tries to understand the player group as a whole is not an easy path to take or find agreement with. The number of people that play this game and in different ways is why it flourishes. Also our inclusion of an item on a list does not mean we actively endorse a play style that is based on using that card. If you really take offense that we list an incredibly powerful card on a Top 10 list, then maybe watching this kind of content isn't up your alley. We strive to do the best we can, make as few mistakes as possible, but regardless of what we look to do we will never be perfect.
If you really think the podcast is subpar, than that is entirely your opinion. I'm not just "calling you mean" for pointing it out. I'm stating that the way you're delivering your opinion online is not pleasant, fun to read, or productive in any way. So if you don't want to be a troll, don't act like one and incite a negative reaction to the way you deliver the comment. There are plenty of ways to address the issues you bring up. jimmy
Fair enough. And one last thing on the topic of most players despising certain cards: I travel and move a good deal for work and have had the opportunity as a result to play in many diverse metas around the country. I have played in LGSs, at tournaments, on Cockatrice, and at kitchen tables. Whereas most players have likely played only in their local meta with rare ventures outside, I have on a regular basis been playing in a fluctuating meta for the last 5 years and so I feel confident and qualified to say, unequivocally, that some things are toxic for the format, and most players concur on particular cards being inappropriate for play in a social format. My disappointment in a card like DoA being included in your Top 10 list can then be seen as, "Why would you include a card, while admittedly bonkers-level powerful, that almost nobody would ever want to play with or against?" Ultimately, your channel is serving as advice and guidance for thousands of players, many of them new and looking for ideas. So why instill in them that mass land destruction and full board resets are okay? And the response "because if you wanted to stop them you should have been playing blue" is not an intelligent or productive response. I have a deck in every color combination and colorless and I accept that certain decks are unlikely to be able to deal with certain problems, but nobody should have to play with people for 2 hours or more, have a DoA happen, and then play for 2 more hours because the DoA wasn't part of a wincon.
Sorry for the long post, and for the vitriol. The anonymity of the CZcams comment section easily enables speaking without tact. Whatever else I have said, I do enjoy your podcast and only look forward to it getting better.
Family friendly. the worst f words