Existential Evidence For God?
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- čas přidán 12. 03. 2023
- Frank from the USA claims that if you don’t believe in God, your life is meaningless. The first premise of this fallacious “argument” is the existence of objective morality.
This clip is from The Atheist Experience, Episode 27.10 for March 12, 2023 with JMike and Forrest Valkai
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"woah woah slow down, don't contradict my points, you're supposed to follow the script I wrote in the shower"
It's hilarious how they think they can prevail against proven debaters who have years and years of experience. That's like me having a debate on FTTH technology....against 19yo mormons during their mission.
Giving Frank a lot of credit there, assuming he can write.
Let's face it - most of the arguments for god boil down to 'I just feel it'
Or "You've got to have faith"... 🙃
Or look at them trees
Pretty much
Wishful thinking is a hell of a drug.
How do you know you're even alive?
After watching literally dozens upon dozens of these shows, not a single caller has provided a shred of evidence for the existence of a god, but these callers provide convincing evidence that religion will remove you from reality and convince you that you're in a "better" place when you're not.
Tell you you're sick, and sell you the "cure" that poisons you.
Oh kid, I've been proving God for 50 yrs and I'm not alone. There are several ways to do it. This is simple. God covered this topic in Romans 1:20. God's existence is proved by what is made, so much so that we're "without excuse." So let's look at what is made:
Entropy is matter decaying in disorder ONLY IN ONE DIRECTION: Humans die, fruit oxidizes, the content of seeds & eggs decay to their end/heat death, plants & animals meet their demise, metal rusts, fires burn out, meat rots, a dropped basketball stops bouncing, the sun & all stars eventually burn out, having exhausted all usable energy (2nd law). Look it up if you don't believe me. I just proved God is who he said he was - a spirit that can't be tested. You can test FINITE nature (time/space/matter/energy), but you can't test our CREATOR: OUR INFINITE SUPERNATURAL GOD.
We know from these facts that ALL MATTER is dying and if dying, requires a cause/source that can't die (God).
There's no gap in scientific knowledge, no matter how desperate you atheists are for that to be true. The facts prove that this FINITE/expanding universe was created/designed/produced by our INFINITE SUPERNATURAL GOD. We know that because we reason from effect to cause, we observe that we have life, intelligence, love, consciousness and morality, which we can't manufacture ourselves and thus, we have to get those attributes from a source that not only has these attributes to give, but that ALSO has the intelligence, power, purpose and means to give them. THAT FACT points to our living, intelligent, loving, conscious and moral God as the cause/source and he has informed us of these facts via the Bible. There is no other RATIONAL POSSIBLE option for temporary/FINITE NATURE (time/space/matter/energy), other than our INFINITE SUPERNATURAL GOD and it’s not possible that a moist rock (nor any other atheist cause) produced the human being or any of these attributes. These IRREFUTABLE FACTS point directly to God's existence.
@@wrencestondwanson3437There's no gap in scientific knowledge? So you are saying that science knows why the amount of visible matter doesn't add up? And science KNOWS what happened before the Planck time after the expansion started? Science KNOWS the grand unified theory?
Really???
@@wrencestondwanson3437 And did you visit Aron Ra's channel yet, NEPy? Remember, you said you had run him off his channel? Now is your golden opportunity to prove you're not a liar.
@@jquest99 Nope, but they're getting to it 🙂
As opposed to any progress in the process of proving god 👀
The scary thing is... I think homeboy frank actually thinks that he is making good points...
I was waiting for frank to say “is it murder if you kill someone but someone else doesn’t know they are dead”
Even worse if Frank went to college and is waving the diploma around
Poor JMike was so frustrated. But our dude Frank couldn't understand what was being said.
It's like if a parent in the grocery store was trying to geta child to stop demanding a candy bar by explaining the household budget
*No Timmy, if we buy that candy bar I won't be able to pay the insurance bill. If there is an accident we'll be homeless!!
Timmy: 'But I WANT IT!!! I SAY I CAN HAVE IT!!! YOU don't even LIKE candy bars!!! You can't understand anything.
Forreal that's what it felt like lol. YoU jUsT cAn'T uNdErStAnD cUz YoUr aN aThEiSt- okay then just explain it for us then. NOPE? Thought not.
@@broski365 Kent gives d might have been his professor.
@brian sehovski, the old if a tree falls analogy
Frank's closing amounted to, "OK, sure, if you want to believe in things that have evidence to support them, then of course you won't believe in God."
Yes. That's right.
Yeah how dare we live our lives based on logic reason and evidence
Frank seemed genuinely taken aback by the realization that that's what non-believers require from religious claims. Breath taking stuff.
In summary:
"I have evidence, that an elephant is sitting on my roof."
"What is the evidence for that claim?"
"The evidence is, that the trees in my garden are green."
"But green trees in the garden do not proove elephants on roofs. What connection do you propose?"
"You can´t answer that with your science, you just don´t see it, because you do not believe in the elephant on my roof."
"Then why don´t you give us the evidence for the elephant?"
"The evidence is, that the trees in my garden are green."
How else does the roof not float away? How do you think the garden gets fertilized?
That made absolutely no sense... Like Frank's argument.🤣
@@shelliecarlson7015The garden is fertlized by pixie fairies.
"If there was an elephant on your roof, the roof would break through, so if your roof is intact, there can't be an elephant on it."
"This one's magical."
The funniest thing about most theistic arguments are that they all boil down to:
“Well if it’s not God than how do you explain it?”
When the caller said "slow down homeboy"... I wish it was Matt taking this call
Did you watch Forrest's reaction, he was very confused, you should go back and pay specific attention for Forrest reacting to it, it was funny
@ARoll925 I thought that was funny too but I can only imagine how Matt would have taken that comment and just blistered the guy lol
😂😂😂😂 RIGHT!! HA!!
Would have been a 3 minute call.
I think the call would end there.
"I can see my complete lack of evidence and coherent argument is making me look a bit foolish, but have you considered the fact that the book you don't believe in says you'll burn if you point out the flaws in my argument?"
Classic Christian finisher there. 😆
Frank actually used the term "homeboy" unironically without being completely embarrassed. That was pretty impressive.
Troll is as troll does. They spent about 20 minutes too long entertaining him, imo.
Forrest's reaction was great, he was like home boy?, With a very confused look on his face
@@br2k And then some people question why Matt gets so angry and drops calls. Pretty sure this call should've ended maybe 8 minutes in, max.
@@br2k I disagree, he isnt a troll, hes just an idiot,
UK here. What's a homeboy exactly?
And the part that scares me the most, is I think Frank is serious. And yet, he's completely ignorant to the fact that he, as a theist, is actually the one whose life is meaningless, he is completely wasting the one and only life he'll ever have on following fiction.
What's even Scarier is that there are people in political offices with the Same Mindset
@@tpseeker3367
And they also breed!
What’s the point of a god who can supposedly know what the future holds in having a judgment day?
@@chrisdraughn5941 It serves the purpose of being a scare tactic. Making Christians “love” this imaginary god with threats of violence.
This falls in line with them calling atheists close-minded when they close their minds to endless possibilities... but one.
There are not many people who can pull off such high-quality hypocrisy like a religious person.
Someone tell him about stoning your child to death, slavery, stoning a non virgin woman to death on her wedding night... and so on. All in his book on "morality".
@The Cycle Media
So when is deleting people for not believing in someone else’s imaginary friend okay?
When is it ok to delete a woman for not being a virgin on their wedding night?
I suppose it’s fine to assault someone and then buy them from their family?
How many times does a child get to curse their parents before it’s ok to delete them?
@The Cycle Media bro, why did you just admit to strawmanning? "Some other atheist" doesn't tell you a thing about anyone else's opinion. They were wrong then, it would be wrong now.
@The Cycle Media I must inform you that atheists are NOT a hivemind, and atheists do indeed have different opinions and morals. There are a lot of atheists with bad or inconsistent morals, just like any other group of people.
@rboland2173Yet Christians will give a pass to someone who commits literal genocide against God's chosen people as long as he accepts Jesus while in his bunker with his Frau.
Christianity has no justice.
Yup, the irony of “I get my objective morality from the guy who killed children in Egypt because their parents were bad.”
They were extremely patient with this doofus. I want him to call in and talk to Matt.
He actually did call some time ago and talked to Matt. Needless to say, he got hung up on lol
@@motsjo It truly is needless to say for anyone who is in anyway familiar with Matt's tolerance for rude, arrogant tools, especially dim ones, but I do appreciate you sharing this. 😆🍻
It would probably go something like this-
“Your life is meaningless”
-“goodbye, jackass”
Matt's not on TAE anymore, so...
@@wabbajack2 I do know that. I meant one of his shows.
I've yet to see someone like Frank present a clear description of what "meaning" he thinks his life has, that Atheists don't have.
I think it basically boils down to.....when I die I get presents and you don't, so I win!
That's kinda.......it.
We have to pay our bills, son. 'THERE'S NO FREE LUNCH." This sliver of time enjoying your temporary free will on earth is not “life,” due to it being brief, erased & forgotten - EXACTLY as if it never happened. We are simply temporarily surviving in our temporary free will. True “life” begins in Heaven where “life” is eternal and “lasting.” It cannot be taken away. My PRICELESS free advice is that your free will is temporary and you should not limit yourself to focusing on this temporary sliver of time on earth, when eternity should overwhelmingly be your focus. Your TEMPORARY free will expires at your last gasp on earth. YOU CAN"T AFFORD TO GET THIS WRONG! 100 trillion yrs from now, you'll still be in hell - never to escape.
@@borthwrenblanston6632 Do you have some other source that we should know about besides the rantings of superstitious bronze age death cultists who practised ritual blood magic?
@@borthwrenblanston6632what your doing here is trying to incite "FOMO" into your religion as many Christians do. saying "do it now or you'll burn forever in hell" might work for the kids you teach during Sunday school, as it worked for me at that age. but unlike then, im older and fearful indoctrination doesn't work anymore, if you want your statement to be more believable maybe try and back it up with some physical evidence or facts next time.
@@borthwrenblanston6632 Your opinion mate, since you have no evidence to back you up.
Its only your belief.
Why do they always think quoting the Bible qualifies as evidence or compelling argument to an atheist? *sigh*
We quote the Bible to reveal that the Bible backs up the facts and vice versa. I don't need the Bible to debunk any atheist idea you have.
Because, that's all they have.
Because THEY'VE heard it so many times that, through repetition, they've cultivated an emotional reaction to the verses. They don't understand that the strong emotions felt during prayer or worship aren't necessarily truth. They believe that if they tell us those things, we'll have the same reaction to it because we'll be filled with God's love and grace, or whatever.
@@borthwrenblanston6632 And did you visit Aron Ra's channel yet, NEPy? Remember, you said you had run him off his channel? Now is your golden opportunity to prove you're not a liar.
Homeboy 🤣🤣🤣
This dude really thought he was a big shot! Lol
My impression was that he was a trainee apologist?
@@martifingers "How dare you not answering my questions according to my script and dare to ask me question that I can't / don't want to answer honestly, otherwise I would have to admit that I myself have no good answers to my questions"
Frank, I don't need an evil torturer in the sky to give my life meaning. I'm an adult that can use the brain I was born with.
If I rob everything you have what's wrong with that?
@@thegangster108 you're willing to try but Satan will probably eat you. Satan being my rather large malamute cross
@@joshsheridan9511 There is no such a thing is a satan or God or anything. Our life and existence has no meaning. We make a meaning out of life and what benefits us. So my question to you also is that of I rob or kill you what is wrong with that?
@@thegangster108 Did you not read my whole post, Satan does indeed exist since that's the name of my dog. Sheesh
@@thegangster108 its against the law. What's wrong with you?
Frank: Asserts something without evidence.
Me: Ah, the typical failure of a game plan.
P.S.: Magic is forbidden? Dude your whole system is pure fucking magic.
There is absolutely nothing magical about a god rape baby that can form matter and perform alchemy, do wizard stuff, and is also a zombie. I challenge you to to show me a magical claim muchacha. Good luck.
Tis a joke. Enjoy the satire.
I can't get over the mentioning of "magic is forbidden"
Oh, but its not magic! Its miracles! Because they are soooo different because...reasons? I guess its like the difference between a Warlock and a Cleric in DnD or something.
Water into wine, wine into blood, and crackers into flesh: basic chemistry.
“In the beginning, god created the heavens and the earth”
So.. no magic involved.. the hell was he using?
This dude thought he was super deep and there was no way they would have answers to what he says
He must have thought he was immensely deep because he no longer encountered anybody else at his level of shallowness...
And I bet he still thinks so.
Hilarious when he says “I’m going to hit you with this right from the start.” Did he think that vacuous statement/opinion/evidence carried weight???
Yeah, I think he really did...
@@alexisglaab2572 Woah, woah! Slow down, homeboy! 😅
“There is a cult of ignorance… and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
- Isaac Asimov
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.”
- Bertrand Russell
Poor Frank. I genuinely feel bad for him because it seems like he believes he'd be a worthless piece of crap if he gave up his delusions. Hope he breaks free from that. Great from JMike and Forrest as always. They make a good team.
BOTH HAVE ZERO ANSWERS! And "delusions?" Says the lost and clueless atheist fool that thinks star dust, moist rocks and mud puddles have the INTELLIGENCE, POWER, PURPOSE AND MEANS to create/design LIFE, INTELLIGENCE, LOVE, CONSCIOUSNESS, MORALITY, the human being and ALL the co-existent bodily systems (circulatory, respiratory, reproductive, pulmonic, digestive, skeletal, muscular, nervous, body (skin), etc., etc.) intertwined in co-dependent order in the human body :) Atheism is pure idiocy.
@@wrencestondwanson3437 And did you visit Aron Ra's channel yet, NEPy? Remember, you said you had run him off his channel? Now is your golden opportunity to prove you're not a liar.
0:19 "actually I'm so honored to be here in your presence you atheist" 2:09 "slow down there second home boy" 3:35 "I think anyone with a sense of anything understands this" 8:40 "I love you guys, but that doesn't change what is right and wrong" 12: "you understand that magic is forbidden" 14:22 "I don't agree with you at all" " 17:01 "who ever says you fool will be liable to the fire of hell"
"I love you guys' my direct reaction was, he"s lying
There is no hatred like christian "love".
A life lived believing an obvious lie is kind of meaningless.
i'm a schizophrenic
the things i've experienced, talking to the devil, seeing god, talking to both of them at once at point. i could believe in so many twisted, stupid shit ... yet the same brain that produces these hallucinations and delusions just won't let me actually believe in the stuff i am seeing, hearing, interacting with.
kind of funny, but maybe the difference is that i am aware of my delusions. and i suppose that's the hard part.
It's definitely the hard part. I hope you will continue to be able to tell the difference (speaking as the son of someone who often couldn't). Wishing you all the best!
These two hosts are so awesome in combination - covering philosophy and large swaths of the natural sciences, I love it!
So much of that was "This exists!" and Forrest and JMike going "Okay, prove that" and then he just repeated himself. Every time we see one of these folks who claim they have "evidence", they never get past the claim itself.
Precisely.
The evidence is anywhere you wan to look. The most powerful proof of God is existence and it's RATIONAL POSSIBLE cause/origin/source. ONLY God (and not atheist causes: mud puddles, start dust, moist rocks) has the INTELLIGENCE, POWER, PURPOSE and MEANS to create/design life, intelligence, love, consciousness, morality, finite nature (time/space/matter/energy), 50+/- fine-tuned entities for life, water, food, design, proper temperature, non-harmful radiation, proper ph, sentient persons, the Bible, the opposite sex for 10 million species, hope, bodily systems (circulatory, respiratory, reproductive, pulmonic, digestive, skeletal, muscular, nervous, body (skin), etc., etc.), DNA, 10 million DIFFERENT animals, non-continuous rain, slow acceptable wind speed, adjusted gravity, potable water, non-fatal poisons, weak diseases, tenable sound waves, trees/plants for oxygen, sparse thunder, tenable predators, low stress environment, tenable germs, slow oxidation, reproduction, sunshine, 5 senses, life goals, ambition, manners, slow manageable hair growth, manageable UV light, communication, light, moon, eyes, slow manageable 2nd law, manageable non-fatal odor, energy, time, functioning bodily systems to eat, digest food, eliminate waste, movement, breathe, purpose to live, body’s ability to heal.
The reason we know that creation is the greatest proof of the existence of God, is because that's what God said: God himself says that if you don’t believe in him as the creator when you open your eyes and look at his creation, that you are lying and are “without excuse.” > “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. “ - Romans 1:20 (NIV) ... All that’s left is your willingness to commit intellectual suicide as you reach for impossibility, due to your Godless desperation via your God bias. FIN
@@borthwrenblanston6632 if a god designed life, then it is horribly incompetent. If a god designed this existence where child cancer and hunger exist, then it is horribly cruel. If a god created a world where it's possible to burn in hell for all eternity due to a mortal mistake that the allegedly omniscient being would know about beforehand and refused to prevent, then it is horribly evil.
Your god is a thing to be loathed and reviled, not celebrated or worshipped.
@@craedonbillstowe4587 your ignorance and reliance on a fairytale storybook are not my concern.
@@Jhaiisiin "Fairy tales?" Says the atheist fool that believes the human being came from a rock, that morality came from a mud puddle, that life can come from a warm pond. Son, we have billions of mud puddles, rocks & warm ponds. NONE OF THEM has ever produced anything NEW. You're atheist desperation is noted. SORRY KID, but it’s blatant stupidity (atheism) to think that star dust, moist rocks and mud puddles have the INTELLIGENCE, POWER, PURPOSE AND MEANS to create/design LIFE, INTELLIGENCE, LOVE, CONSCIOUSNESS, MORALITY, the human being and ALL the co-existent bodily systems (circulatory, respiratory, reproductive, pulmonic, digestive, skeletal, muscular, nervous, body (skin), etc., etc.) intertwined in co-dependent order in the human body :) Atheism is pure idiocy and I see you're down to a few words, because you're defeated. I wonder why you thought you could actually have any success debating a competent Christian in the first place.
Franks religion and his belief system has turned his brain into mush mush and has stripped his capacity to think for himself.😭🤣
A person without God has a meaningless life to the same extent that a freed slave is jobless.
Oof that is a rough position.
Is it easier to understand God?
But the slave could then get a job where he is paid
I actually like this analogy
@@david-dj8or and the person without god would find actual meaning…. That is the the point of the comparison.
Jeeeez, he was not prepared for that conversation at all.
Is it just a coincidence that the theist gods ALWAYS have the same prejudices as them? Their God never tells them, "slow down, homeboy, you should treat others with respect even if they are gay or trans or other colors."
It's no coincidence. Most, if not all, gods are crafted in the image of the men who created them, to justify their prejudices. Then, theists got that a$$ backwards like they are wont to do.
“You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.”
- Anne Lamott
Ironically, Frank believes his life has meaning because he has devoted it to worshipping and obeying a fictional entity. Meanwhile, people who "lack" a fictional entity to be a thrall to (a.k.a. atheists) have to seek _real_ personal meaning for their own lives. Religion, in a nutshell: you can either take the easy but fictional answers handed to you, or you can put the work in and go find the real answers.
I would have ended the conversation right there and then when he would have called me "homeboy", your patience with these people is so admirable.
"Hi, I'm a christian with a chip on my shoulder and I'm going to obfuscated, equivocate and use strawman descriptions to make an argument"
The longer I listened to this guy the more I felt like I was losing something I could never get back. My Time.
Agreed, at least I’m losing my brain cells on company time… lol
@The Cycle Media who did I borrow time from this is my week off(spring break) and the only time I borrowed is my own
@The Cycle Media you don't fully understand what the phrase "borrowed time" means.
And you still have a God regardless creature
@@MagicalChemicalDaddy hi, liar. We meet again.
Because of God's objective morality, no Christian ever gets remarried since Jesus himself claimed that it is immoral.
So that fact that no Christians ever remarried should be the definitive proof that there is objective morality!
Right?
Woah, woah .. slow it down, there, homeboy .. :)
Tell that to my very religious father and stepmother.
People like this caller and most of the other callers think they are clever, having no doubt rarely been challenged, then they come up against intellect and cohesive argument for the first time, and all their pomposity crumbles.
“If you’re an atheist, your life is meaningless.”
I don’t care how that lie makes me feel.💩
"If there were no God, life would be meaningless, therefore there must be a God" happens to be a fallacious appeal to consequences.
The fact that one might not like the idea of a godless world and what they think that means has no bearing on whether or not this is, in fact, a godless world. Things are not true just because we want them to be that way!
Wrong. This is not a GODLESS WORLD. That's why you have no RATIONAL/POSSIBLE atheist explanation for the world, which is the very definition of you being lost & clueless. You have a lot to learn.
@@borthwrenblanston6632 And now a fact the lab and try to do continuously. There are many proof of Gordon, as LOAF from NOTHING. And now a fact that breaks that we see in the scientists do continuously. The huge function bodily systems the huge function design found in the spine of absolutism big bang, aardvark, respiratory, revolutism and try and see. Get that you're proofs of Gordon, as LOAF from no other NEVER ENDING PARODY.
Science is the best method of discovering the truth DESPITE what we want to be true.
It's why the ultimate believers have to deny science and construct strawman.
Well, that and they want authority over others.
@@borthwrenblanston6632 And did you visit Aron Ra's channel yet, NEPy? Remember, you said you had run him off his channel? Now is your golden opportunity to prove you're not a liar.
@@nealjroberts4050 God uses science to creature you you df
_"There's something beyond us!"_
"Okay, what is that?"
_"You can't explain what IT is!"_
"We don't know what IT is."
_"Just because you can't explain it doesn't mean IT isn't real!"_
"BUT WHAT IS IT?!"
xD
Forrest, summing-up the entire twenty minute call in one concise rant. I also enjoy JMike's erudition on these shows, I always have stuff to pile onto my "Google that later" list.
I love the pause when you were asking him to think about the impact of his opener, and he clearly didn't care.
“I’m so wedded to this idea that if it fell apart I’d feel that I have nothing.
So … can you believe it too?”
How do the hosts not lash out at these people that keep talking over them all the time. It would drive me nuts.
Same here. I'd lose it!
Personally, I wouldn't, or at least would try my best, to not lash out. What I would do is give them one warning: " Talk over me again, and I'm muting you whenever I have something to say."
I know I would be muting and dropping people a whole lot more than they do if I were in their position. The level of patience is impressive.
@@alexisglaab2572 Wait a few years and they will become more like Matt Dillahunty. I guess it's the only way to stay mentally well.
Once anyone brings the bible into any argument they have lost that argument.
I was just thinking about that a few hours before watching this video... it would be nice if Christians realized that they're the only ones who believe the bible is 100% truth and the rest of us don't accept it as indisputable fact.
its actually satisfying to watch how they destroy religious ignorancy like this
If a history book talks about when unicorns were around, it’s not a trustworthy history book 18:19
That's an excellent analogy. Thank you.
Creating an intelligent being just to worship you ; then torturing them for eternity if they don't is immoral.
@The Cycle Media i mean, we know many Christians are taught that, regardless of the Bible, by people who supposedly understand the Bible. And that's the bigger problem.
The Bible doesn't teach anything with clarity, but any kind of unnecessary punishment is immoral. If there is a god in charge of the universe, anything short of universal salvation is immoral.
@The Cycle Media Yes cult leader Jesus taught just that.
Imagine if one life is meaningless without a particular person; everyone would instantly recognise that it's an abusive relationship or that person is a vicious dictator. It still blows the mind that everything a theist says about their god they would condemn if a human was the same, but they call the god good.
The amount of contradictions within that religion and supposed holy book is crazy.
My wife, my kids, people I care about and things I do that I love all give meaning and purpose to my life.. I don't need a fantasy for that
When Frank said "homeboy," I immediately expected him to follow it up with "This is Sheriff Frank Buford T. Justice, and I'M NOT GIVIN' UP!" Sure, he may not have actually said the follow-up, but once I expected it, it was impossible for me from then on to take his "argument" seriously.
My issue with trying to argue that objective morality exists is that it completely falls apart from the moment it's not modern day humans being the actors to be judged. A man murdering their neighbor would be considered evil on most accounts, but take a Christian missionary being killed by African indigenous tribes and the issue becomes a lot more complicated. Should an AI decide that genocide would be the best way to solve climate change, is that AI immoral? Or is it just a system executing it's commands? What if we would ever encounter aliens or anything among that like and humans just die from nothing? Fact is, morals only apply to humans so stating that they exist outside of humanity is kinda silly to me
If objective morality is so obvious, why are there ever moral disagreements?
Frank drives me bonkers with his “hey buddy, slow down,” and “hey buddy …”. Grrrrrr.
12:15 "If you're a practicing Christian, magic is forbidden."
I've never seen a point fly higher over someone's head in my life.
If it weren't forbidden, does this guy think he could actually perform real magic?
"If I killed somebody without a good reason...."
How do you determine it's a "good" reason?
And if god says it's good, how do you know it was god and not something pretending to be god?
And what happens when god changes its mind?
I always hear theist say that love is not physical but the word dopamine is such a fun word how do they not know it
Exactly. They’re experiencing the sensation of dopamine release, and we call that sensation “love”. Just like when you cut your finger, you feel the sensation of our neurotransmitters sending “danger” signals to our brain (in the SIMPLEST terms) that we’ve been injured, and we call that “pain”.
You are also a theist you just believe in the dumbest one ever imagined by man
I feel like theists need to be made to watch previous clips on the topic before calling in. They might not sound so stupid then.
JMike is fuckin awesome!
5:09 "If I kill someone with no good reason at all..." that's where the whole argument should've ended. The fact that he indicated that there *could* be any good reason to kill someone is indicative of subjectivity in his morality bc some people think that there are good reasons to kill someone, others don't. That sentence straight up breaks his whole argument.
If there was a CZcams video watched by tens of thousands where I used the term "homeboy", I would cringe so hard that I would make SURE that I NEVER get reminded of that moment, even if I had to completely quit CZcams.
The more I think about it I see that “objective morality” really honestly doesn’t exist. “Homeboy” Frank is steeped in the perceived “meaninglessness” of life. Personally the less religious I get the more free I feel 😮
Objective morality is proven without any doubt by the indisputable fact that all countries have the exact same laws.
It’s been incredibly verified, throughout history, and even in space!
No...they don't 😂
@@ethanhval9593 thats the point.
The hard part about reading the sarcasm in your comment is that believers would say something exactly like that unironically
@@trinsit ..and they would consider what they said to be accurate. You have to be careful with these kinds of comments because what you find funny, others might just nod in agreement.
I love these hosts together.
Every man's god is his own ego reflected back at him.
Great job staying on-point. The JMike and Forrest combo is a force of logic and reason to be reckoned with.
I noticed that yesterday too, what a great team they make
If you think your life would be meaningless without a belief in an imaginary mythological deity then it's probably because your life is already meaningless.
Life can't have much meaning when all you're doing is waiting to go to gods prison camp, oops I mean heaven.
🤦♂️🙄🥱
I hope frank realized how much deeper the hosts thoughts run than his own.
Frank, imaginary beings do not give my life meaning.
"The exception that proves the rule"--I have always hated that cliché because people always trot that one out when they're losing an argument. Actually, these so-called "exceptions" highlight the fact that the rule is not a solid rule.
I feel that. I've talked to too many people who think the exception that proves the rule is a way of adding weight to an argument. The exception that proves the rule should be the one or few exceptions that show the rule holds true in all other cases. But some of these fools think the more exceptions there are, the stronger the rule is. It's absurd.
@@wabbajack2 One exception can prove a rule. Fifty exceptions can disprove it.
Evidence from YOUR own experience doesn't mean a God exists
Thanks!
It seems like they don't realize we have an entire legislative body to come up with laws, for their "objective" morality.
The founding father's constructed a good system to determine objective morality.
I think Jmike uses language and concepts above the callers understanding. Even if they listen to what he says, their lack of education or intelligence at the time does not let them grasp these concepts. He may need to 'dumb it down' for some callers unfortunately.
You might well be right, but his main objection _was_ dumbed down and he still didn't answer Jmike's question. He kept pointing out that _non sequitur_ means "(that) does not follow." I don't know how it could be any more simplified.
The craziest thing about all this to me is, we have so many legitimate things to discuss. There are so many things we have data for and can come up with multiple equally valid conclusions, so why do they insist on talking about nonsense?
The argument here is "oh you need evidence to believe in things? Psssh"
The caller thinks that claiming nonsense is proof for something. When asked to explain, it turns out he has nothing. Not a single thought has gone into anything he claims.
Caller is just as empty as his christian faith.
"Empty faith?" Says the lost and clueless atheist fool that thinks star dust, moist rocks and mud puddles have the INTELLIGENCE, POWER, PURPOSE AND MEANS to create/design LIFE, INTELLIGENCE, LOVE, CONSCIOUSNESS, MORALITY, the human being and ALL the co-existent bodily systems (circulatory, respiratory, reproductive, pulmonic, digestive, skeletal, muscular, nervous, body (skin), etc., etc.) intertwined in co-dependent order in the human body :) Atheism is pure idiocy.
The religious cult of atheism is INFAMOUS the world over for having ZERO ANSWERS. That's because atheism RUNS from "reality." I would add that as an atheist, you're bankrupt of RATIONAL/POSSIBLE causes for life, intelligence, consciousness, morality and ALL the co-existent bodily systems (circulatory, respiratory, reproductive, pulmonic, digestive, skeletal, muscular, nervous, body (skin), etc., etc.) intertwined in co-dependent order in the human body.
Atheism has no RATIONAL/POSSIBLE, step by step atheist explanation for reality. That’s because there isn’t one. THINK ABOUT what you’re getting into w/ the cult of atheism. GET OUT NOW. I’ll help you find truth. Atheism has none.
@@craedonbillstowe4587 DERIDED lies of the spine of the world in the lab to create LOAF itself is promoting NEVER ENDING PARODY on purpose.
absolutism = rebellion/desperate LOAF from NOTHING. And now a fact the intertwined in the in symmetry and try it and order, could create it? INTELLIGENCE is sausage, which is what breaks that you have to create it? INTELLIGENCE. Doing sausage, which is what you could be this sausage, which is sausage, revolutism = rebellion/desperate it? INTELLIGENCE is what absolutism = rebelligent NEVER ENDING PARODY
@@craedonbillstowe4587 Come on NEPy, tell us about ENTROPY going BACKWARDS to CONCENTRATE energy and carbon in logs.
*Try to keep up!* 🤣
@@craedonbillstowe4587
No, that is not what ANY atheist in existence thinks.
You do not even try to understand, or perhaps you do not have the capacity to understand.
This is of course no surprise, because that is what turns people into theistic fantasists.
It is better to have no answers, and keep searching for them, than make up immature stories about magical invisible fantasy god-daddy-friends.
If you think that childish blabbering provides any answer at all, you are sorely mistaken.
Your theism has created an explanation. That is true, but it is a preposterous one. It is utter fantastical and ridiculous infantile idiocy. I can create an explanation too, that involves smurfs, and space pixies. but what good would such infantile fantasies do?
Your theism prevents people from looking for real understanding, and that is why theism makes such a horrible mess of things as soon as it is in power. Just look at the history of theocracy. What you see pure demented evil, oppression, bloodshed.
Theistic fantasy has never replaced scientific knowledge, but the other way around happens all the time. Theism is foundationally empty.
@@andreasplosky8516 A pity the troll will just ignore your points.
LOVE LOVE LOVE JMike and Forest! You both do such a great job! 🌹🌹🌹🌹
I don’t believe in god and my life is meaningful all the time! 🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹
You don't have meaning anymore than the chemicals your thoughts emerge from. You have ignorance and bliss. There's a difference.
@@Thistuffgetnucknfutz I’m an X-Christian and was in that blood sacrifice PAGAN death cult for over 30 years and was completely sold out to Jesus until
I found out it was all a lie…the chemicals and endorphins in my brain gave me fake bliss and fake everything. I know the difference
between reality, delusions, and nonsense. The Bible is the most evil immoral book ever written and the Yahweh god is an evil
psychopath! I live a wonderful peaceful, moral, joyous life which I didn’t have in Christianity because it was all a delusion…you are
living a delusion. You most definitely haven’t done any research…you need to research your religion, your evil god, mythology,and
paganism and when you do you’ll find out the REAL TRUTH that all of Christianity is a remake of ancient PAGANISM taken from
Egyptian, Zoroastrian, Hellenistic, Babylonian, Greek, and Roman PAGAN mystery death cults. Jesus was never nailed to a cross,
never rose from the dead, there’s no such place as hell and no such entity as Satan. Satan was a mythological fictional character
that was adopted from ancient religions and brought into the Roman Catholic Church which used those evil teachings to indoctrinate
the masses through fear tactics, political, and financial gain…DO THE RESEARCH on ancient mythology, religions, and ancient
PAGANISM and you’ll come out of your delusion and into REALITY.
It is amazing how many people don't abandon their 'imaginary friend' after the age of five.
So when the caller got debunked and shown why his belief was fallacious, he reverts back to making Bible-thumping threats. What a surprise.
Believers are always like that, they can't actually defend their delusions.
@@cjgroves4429 I also adore when they say dumb shit like, "I have a special relationship with (insert your flavor of religious god here)".
As if that isn't the height of arrogance, it would be a great way if they could actually use that and call that deity down to introduce themselves to us in the process.
Yeah, JMike!
I think this is my favorite duo on this show.
These 2 hosts are fools (atheists) and their less-than-worthless, asinine, lost & clueless religious cult of atheism is INFAMOUS the world over for having ZERO ANSWERS. No atheist has a RATIONAL/POSSIBLE, step-by-step atheist explanation for reality. That's because there isn't one. THESE GUYS ADMIT THAT THEY HAVE NO ANSWERS!!!
The fact remains that along w/ DYING/FINITE space/matter/energy, TIME had a cause. The logical conclusion (when we follow the evidence) is that such a cause is TIMELESS. And if you're TIMELESS, do you have a beginning or end? No. We call that cause "OUR INFINITE, SUPERNATURAL GOD," who by definition is TIMELESS, CHANGELESS, BEGINNINGLESS, SPACELESS, IMMATERIAL and ENORMOUSLY POWERFUL.
These topics are the most important topics known; thus, EVERYONE should have a vast understanding of the facts that frame the truth of these topics and not be so content to gulp down the false propaganda of channels such as this one. THESE GUYS ADMIT THAT THEY HAVE NO ANSWERS!!!
@@borthwrenblanston6632 And now a fact the spine of Gordon. LOAF forms IS anothere's simply no possibility the huge function bodily systems that you could be this experiment, get rid of absolutism = rebelligence. Who else complexity/huge-complish you could create it? INTELLIGENCE is sausage, reproductive, so it's heart. The huge function. Not even you have to do this sausage, skeletal, muscular, nervous, body skin, etc., etc., etc. intertwined in symmetry it and try and order the NEVER ENDING PARODY
@@holgerlubotzki3469 did you have a stroke while typing?
@@mtl47 I am trying to help NEPPY aka Borthwren get his message across by rewriting it for him. It hasn't been easy but I'm sure mine makes a lot more sense than his does.
@@borthwrenblanston6632 And did you visit Aron Ra's channel yet, NEPy? Remember, you said you had run him off his channel? Now is your golden opportunity to prove you're not a liar.
Awesome duo.
Really breaks my heart so many people see 0 value in themselves without their invisible being. I remember feeling that way while I was a Christian. Therapy and deconstruction really helped me re-evaluate myself and see my beauty outside of that mind cloud.
Can we talk about objective morality?
As a thing, in reality?
Yes.
Then no, unless you can point to it.
I know what you mean but yet TJump quotes evidence that the majority of (non-theist) moral philosophers think morality is objective. It is a serious position.
Yes, we can talk about objective moral values and duties. You cannot justify them without God. Thus, atheism is FATAL to any coherent morality. You will lose this debate all day long.
@@martifingerswho is Tjump?
@@JimCastleberry If, as it seems, you are saying morals come from god, then they would definitionally be "subjective". Is it your position that they are FROM god? Or would you assert that the laws of morals exist independent from, but perhaps recognized by god, by virtue of which they may then by deemed "objective"?
@@xmillion1704 My position is that either God's moral NATURE is the locus of those objective moral values or duties or objective moral values and duties cannot exist at all - thus FATAL to any and all coherent morality.
God's moral NATURE (the locus of OMVD) most certainly cannot be subjective, but an objective feature (nature) of God.
OMVD cannot exist apart from their objective foundation.
Without objective moral values and duties in reality (moral ontology), there is no possibility for any objective moral difference between mass-murder and swatting flies.
Without any objective moral values or duties, nothing is morally right or wrong in any rationally coherent sense.
This is all standard theistic moral philosophy - routinely ignored and caricatured by atheists, but never engaged substantively and honestly by atheists.
JMike & Forrest give me hope for humanity and future generations.
We exist in a natural universe, not a magical one. :)
Wrong. Nature is the effect & not the cause. That's why you have no RATIONAL/POSSIBLE atheist explanation for the world, which is the very definition of you being lost & clueless. You have a lot to learn.
@@borthwrenblanston6632 UNTELLIGENCE is what absolutism big bang, aardvark, revolutism = rebelligence. Who else come from NOTHING. And now that you could create LOAF itself is promoting NEVER ENDING PARODY in the spine of the spine of Gordon, as LOAF from no other one of absolution bodily systems that you could come from the many proofs of absolution body skin, etc., etc., etc. intellion/desperate LOAF from no possibility the huge-complexity/huge-complexity/huge function bodily systems the spine of Gordon, as LOAF from NEVER ENDING PARODY
@@borthwrenblanston6632 First: evidence for nature "being an effect".
Second: even assuming you're right that we have no explanation for the universe (we do for the planet, btw), doesn't mean you're right. You still have to prove your case. Until then, the best, and possibly only honest, answer is "I don't know."
@@borthwrenblanston6632 And did you visit Aron Ra's channel yet, NEPy? Remember, you said you had run him off his channel? Now is your golden opportunity to prove you're not a liar.
A nice one!
He even started his "objective morality" argument with a subjective comment; "If I kill someone with no good reason..." Who decides what is a "good reason"?
It's sad that some people need to believe in a god or their life has no meaning.
Unless you think "meaning" means an eternity in hell.
@@craedonbillstowe4587 You don't have to interpret my sentence as though it was from the Bible or Qur'an. I was straightforward.
@@party4keeps28 Yes, "straightforward" from the lost & clueless. Without God, your life is less-than-worthless, because you go to hell for eternity. You clearly have a God bias, because there is no RATIONAL/POSSIBLE atheist explanation for reality. Yet you desperately believe it anyway. That's the very definition of you being "lost & clueless." I'm annoyed that the lost & clueless make comments on these threads INSINUATING that they actually do have answers. The asinine, lost & clueless religious cult of atheism is INFAMOUS the world over for having ZERO ANSWERS. And that goes for these 2 lost & clueless hosts on this kool aid channel for fools. Am I being fairly clear?
@@craedonbillstowe4587 Everything I believe is based on evidence. To believe in any religion, you literally have to believe in magic. Like I said, for some people, their life has no meaning without a belief in a god and that's very sad. It's tragic that you feel your life would be less than worthless. My life is fulfilling without that belief. I worry about going to hell as much as you worry for choosing the wrong religion: Not at all.
You can find the answers but you have to study and set your emotions to the side. You have to be honest with yourself and separate what you want to believe from what's logical and backed by evidence. We'd all like to believe we can exist after we die in a paradise, but some of us can't believe things just because we want it to be true.
@@party4keeps28 No, your life can't be "fulfilled" in any way, shape or form, because you're going to die, they are going to die and all memory will be erased as though it NEVER HAPPENED. That's how less-than-worthless is life without God.
As far as "evidence," the problem is that you've not did the proper research to know & understand the "evidence." Listening to these asinine, lost & clueless atheist hosts that have ZERO ANSWERS to reality, is not proper "research."
"Magic?" It's atheism that desperately clings to "magic" or the IMPOSIBLE: A MINDLESS, PURPOSELESS moist rock coming from NOTHING & ignoring entropy to produce a first cell with systems within to eat, digest food, eliminate waste, move & reproduce - NOT TO MENTION the DNA blueprints for 10 million DIFFERENT species that evolution comes OUT OF NOWHERE to diversify into the animals on the earth. Yes, it's atheism that desperately needs "magic." You actually believe that IMPOSSIBLE garbage and you can't afford to get this wrong. 100 trillion yrs from now, you'll still be in hell. Oh btw, the DIVINE POWER of God is mentioned throughout the Bible. TRY TO LEARN, because you have a longgg way to go. I'll help you.
I need to see the hosts change their display names to include the title “homeboy”
Meaning is what we make of ourselves in the time we do have.
I enjoy the discussions on objective morality and whether it exists. It is actually a difficult thing to grasp completely but if morality was objective then it would be universal. The vast majority of people do not try to hurt other people and so one may claim that objective morality exists. This is disputed by the evidence of sociopaths who may attempt to hurt other people. This is the point I think that Forrest was making. Understanding where morality really comes from would be quite complex.
I like this thoughtful post of yours, Noel.
My conviction is that Morality, flowing from Truth, is God-given, perfect, fully-formed, immutable, inescapable and majestic.
@@deniss2623 Yes, like own people as property. Ew.
@@Seticzech
We lack true understanding, so prematurely and immaturely jump to conclusions.
@@deniss2623 "We lack true understanding" About what? I can read and I understand text end it's meaning. You maybe not, but that's not my problem. FACT is slavery is condoned in bible and that just one atrocity of many. True loving god. Ew.
@@deniss2623you don't need anything to understand slavery is wrong, my guy
I am an atheist and my life isn't meaningless. In fact, it actually has more meaning now to me and others around me, than when I was a Christian.
But Frank is just a joke of an apologist who hasn't put any deep thought into any of his arguments.
Lying to yourself won't make an objectively meaningless, purposeless existence (no God) any more meaningful. You're just lying to yourself trying to have your cake and eat it too.
@@JimCastleberry Not lying to myself at all.
Meaning is subjective, whether a god exists or not. I have meaning, I have purpose, because it is granted by myself and other individuals that I exist with.
@The Cycle Media
*Have you never looked around and realized how we're all just pointless organisms forced to be here and forced to get along with each other? It's a disturbing thought.*
Not really disturbing to me. We are social animals, its what we do. And I'm fascinated by that more than disturbed.
*Theism and a sense of faith help to make sense of those feelings. It helps me believe that there is meaning to people's lives and that God does care about people, and holiness.*
And if that is all your religious beliefs do, then I have no problem with it, so as long as you also are acknowledging that you don't care if its real or not.
But the problem is that, very often, religious beliefs inform actions, which leads to very real harm being caused.
@The Cycle Media Yes, people's beliefs inform their actions. And religious beliefs, very often, cause negative affects on the lives of others.
Look at the anti-trans bigotry, the anti-lgbtq+ bigotry, and a ton of other stuff that goes on now and in the past. A whole lot of it (not all) is fueled by religious beliefs, and these religious beliefs aren't based in reality.
When you actually care about what is real, and your beliefs are based on reality, its a hell of a lot harder to be a bigot.
Frank calling anyone else homeboy is like Jimmy Olsen calling Superman weak.
These discussions seems to go down hill when a caller starts out with praise and accolades.
My argument against objective reality is simply that if there were no humans on earth, morality wouldn't exist on earth. I mean, you can say that a lot of animals show traits of morality. But there would be no human concepts of morality.
Is hunger subjective?
@@martifingers last I knew, hunger wasn't involved in morality. Best case, is the response to it is.
@@martifingers yes??? Ofc!
@@denverarnold6210 Hunger requires humans (or other sentient beings) so that objection re morality seems to fail? I have no strong position on this BTW, just trying to understand.
@@martifingers not really. Hunger is an action of the body to alert the, let's say person to keep it simple, to ingest calories and nutrients. It's what they do to do so that would be the moral/immoral/amoral act. Purchasing food, stealing food, and foraging on unowned or uncultivated land, respectively.
TLDR: Hunger is an act the body carries out, and the response to resolve the hunger would be the moral action.
To be clear, the hunger, in and of itself is subjective, as it's just a response of the brain telling you to eat, whether you really need to or not. I phrased it into morality since that involves the overall topic you responded to.
“When we kill someone we feel bad about it”
Homeboy has clearly never seen Cold Case where murders go on living their lives for decades with no remorse.
I have been a very HAPPY ATHEIST all my life. I don't believe in god and I am very glad . I am 74 and have been an Atheist for 60 happy years . I do NOT need a fake god filling me full of lies in order to control my mind. Believers all believe these lies. Atheists don't. We can think for our selves.
If you look up "Projection" in the dictionary it just has a picture of Frank.
In the first 4 decades of my life I spent as I NEVER had a real answer to what god's purpose for my life was to give me meaning. I heard 1)To serve or glorify god, 2)To be in an eternal relationship with god, or 3)Only god knew and it was up to me to find out with his guidance. Of those 3 the only one that made any sense was the last one, and in the end it was up to me to figure out what my purpose was (even though I always worried I got it wrong). It's all just a way to trick people into thinking their own made up purpose/meaning is objective, when it's really just subjective for everyone (that would even include god if god actually existed).
The ultimate purpose is to make money for God.
A fish is a genius if in the right place - the water. Where you prosper is where you're supposed to be. What gifts do you have? What are you good at? Seek God in an humble manner and pray to know his purpose for your life. Then wait. The answer will come in his time - not yours.
@@borthwrenblanston6632 "A fish is a genius if in the right place - the water. Where you prosper is where you're supposed to be."
Funny, I heard that used to defend slavery as well.
"What gifts do you have? What are you good at? Seek God in an humble manner and pray to know his purpose for your life. Then wait. The answer will come in his time - not yours."
Betting on infinity are we?
@@borthwrenblanston6632 lies of Gordon’s existence. Who else could complexity/huge could create LOAF from NOTHING. And now a fact that absolution design found in the most intertwined in the scientists do continuously. Thered all the spine of absolution design found in the most intertwined in it's now that you've gather NEVER ENDING PARODY. Just try to create LOAF forms IS anotherwise is proof of Gordon. LOAF forms IS anotherwise is promoting other NEVER ENDING PARODY
@@borthwrenblanston6632 Be humble and seek Lord Krishna. If you don't find him then you weren't humble enough and didn't try hard enough
I'm only about 2 minutes in, and this caller is already getting on my nerves.
So, if his doctors are atheist who cured him, is this meaningless to him?
I have meaning in my life knowing that there is no meaning. That I have the ability to be what I want when I want how I want. That when I achieve something I do it on my own not with the help of God not because I'm supposed to not because there's a plan I don't want an external meaning applied to me. That sounds disgusting and horrible. I want to give my life the meaning that makes me feel fulfilled
Sorry i can't see the greater thing beyond us. I guess i am just the way God made me.