Depths of DS9 S5 Ep. 14 - 'In Purgatory's Shadow' / 'By Inferno's Light'
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- čas přidán 10. 06. 2024
- Deep Space Nine hits high gear as the Dominion gains a new ally!
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Holy crap, Razor. We went through a bit of a Depths of DS9 dry spell but now you’re back with a vengeance. Good for you, love this stuff
The first rule of Jem'Hadar fight club is: VICTORY IS LIFE!
Today is a good day to die!
As of this moment, we are all dead. We go into battle to reclaim our lives. This we do gladly, for we are Jem'Hadar. Remember: VICTORY IS LIFE!
Hail victory!
15:35 The best part about Garrack and Ziyal's story is how Ira Steven Behr tried to retcon the whole thing in 'What we left behind' by saying Garrack was ghey and had a buttcrush on Bashir the whole time.
It's such nonsense.
It makes so much more sense if they're both super smart/cunning and they enjoy each other's company because they know each other is very smart, and the constant verbal/mental dueling turns into a genuine friendship over time.
@@hariman7727 Woah, woah, woah! You're suggesting a platonic relationship, and that's not a thing that is allowed to exist in Current Year, thought-criminal! Everything is political, you see, and the most political element of relationships is sexuality, so all relationships have to be sexual or sexual-but-repressed. Friends, rivals? Nonsense!
Everyone's in the closet, you didn't know? j/k
It's sad that while Garak grew as an anti-hero, Dukat's character fell apart as the anti-villain.
The writers got salty that he was so interesting and literally made him the devil in a tantrum.
At least Dukat took Space Hillary with him.
@@Fronzel41 I can't remember who it was but one of the writers got pissed that some of the fanbase were defending Dukat's actions during the Bajoran occupation, so they basically got rid of all his complexity and ambiguity.
His reasoning seemed to be that he tried to mitigate the worst excesses of the Occupation. For example, in the flashback episode where he appoints Odo to independently investigate the murder of a collaborator, he tells him that the alternative he was given was to choose ten Bajoran workers at random and make an example of them.
@@moosestache1769she’s a great actress, but space Hillary is a great take 😂
To quote the NWO: When you're with the Razorforce, You're in 4 Life 😎🤘🏾
Agreed
DS9 deserved at least one movie
Even without a movie, it got a LOT of the absolute best of Star Trek.
@@hariman7727 Absoletly. I feel DS9 is the best because it's a long story, and all the world-building, it does in the Star Trek universe. I love the growth for Worf and Avery Brooks knocks it out of the park as Sisko. DS9, by far, has the most depth to it.
"I cannot defeat this Klingon. I can merely kill him" top 10 Star Trek lines easy.
On Dukat. He wants to become leader of Cardassia precisely because he wants both power and his daughter by his side back on the home world and away from Bajorans. He foolishly sells Cardassia to the Dominion to be with her and have her close to him.
Completely agree. He is arrogant enough to believe he can have it all. He doesn't just want to be loved he wants to be beloved.... almost worshipped. That's kinda how I saw the Kosst Amojan angle too
Well said that is how I always view it… but they should have had the Cardassian space commandos go in an get her off the station that would easily fill one of the biggest plot holes for his new character arc and the actions he later takes.
@@notoriousb.d.c.8227
arrogant?
having an emotional attachment to your child is arrogance?
I believe Dokat says this exact thing. Question did DS9 shields ever go down? I was under the impression that the mission was to reclaim the station. Perhaps the habitat ring wasn't targeted? But I'm in danger of sounding like a Disney "star wars"(rip) fanthem😅😅😅
Ooh, yes. That makes sense!
My thought is that Dukat WAS trying to become better, like Zuko at the end of Avatar: The Last Airbender season 2, but backslid because the lure of power was too much, similar to Zuko.
Depths of DS9 is peak fucking youtub, gods fucking speed.
I seriously hope the rest of the series is on CZcams, because the other site used didn't play them well the last time I tried to watch them there.
I love how when Garak goes back in the hole, both Martok and Worf praise his courage. Because we get to see that even after all his "lying practice" and messing with Worf, Garak still manages to earn his respect.
One of the few things I didn't like about DS9 is how the Breen just appeared out of nowhere and were this big, scary force, even scarier than the Dominion.
@@Archedgaryes dukat went from conflicted nazi who genuinely seemed to want to treat the bajourens at least better than the last occupier. Season 7 turned him into crazy person who wants to watch the galaxy burn. The episode where sisko and dukat are on the planet when sisko is injured shoes dukat really wanted to help bajoir, he was arguing with his own psychy about trying to help them and in none of the flashbacks did they show dukat to be a monster, minus the mistress stuff, but we never saw him order unsolicited murders.
@Archedgar oh no the dominion sent an absoultly massive invasion force through the wormhole
It would be like if the entirety of the D-DAY force and the african landing force just got wiped out.
I understand your point but after reading the first Typhoon Pact book (canon for me, sorry 🫡) its not super surprising. Nobody knows anything about the Breen even after the war. Are they really scarier? And why? A lot comes prob from their mystery and not necessarily real military strength. And dont forget, the Dominion was cut off at this time, otherwise they would have overrun the alpha and beta quadrant in no time.
@@ArchedgarI actually like what they did with Gul Dukot. They made him the emissary to the pah-wraiths which cemented him as the "anti-Sisko"
@@Archedgaragreed, sacrifice of angels was the last time we should have seen Dukat. It was the perfect end for his character, a man's ambition and desire for power causes him to lose everything important to him.
Give the pahwraith plot to Kai Winn, lean harder in her losing her faith and making a deal with the devil only to be used by them, which was ALREADY what they did anyway.
Duakt throwing in with the Dominion makes perfect sense. At this point he has nothing, he doesn't get to see his daughter, his family are outcasts on Cardassia, and he's an even greater outcast from the entire empire. So what does he do? He switches sides. Now he controls the empire and is playing for what he thinks will be the winning team. Give it time and he'll have his daughter back too...or so he thought. He comes so close to total victory with this one move and it sets up the rest of his character nicely.
yeah but then they have to post-edit nerf the Dominion through the most contrived ways possible.
Obligatory "Gul Dukat did nothing wrong"
Obligatory: "Gul Dukat did nothing? Wrong." ;)
@@Archedgar there's always some who has to defend the monster.
They should build a statue in his honor am I right?
They better put that Breen in that song of theirs. He's the real hero
Checkhov's Breen, lol
The failure to do so was actualy the real reason why the Breen eventualy sided with the Dominion.
Definitely one of my favorite episodes, it gives Tain a good send off and gives us a look at my favorite Klingon, Martok
It breathed new life (literally) into the Martok character, which makes me wonder whether Martok in The Way of the Warrior was a changeling or not.
@@blitzerblazinoah6838I think the timeline matches up that he was. It makes sense because he was the one pushing for the war
Also, Soldiers Of The Empire is a straight-up classic banger of an episode
@@blitzerblazinoah6838 he definitely was, Worf confronted Martok about his son's shitty behavior in that episode, but here Martok seems to have never met him.
Watching the old trailers at the beginning brings back so many memories of that time.
Sitting there watching WPIX, recording each episode on my VCR, editing out commercials with the pause button.
Think I was a Junior in High School, too.
The writing in DS9 was just great.
Worf getting to be an absolute badass is the highlight.
It makes up for SO much jobbing he did on TNG.
This episode was spectacular. All the big highpoints are great, of course. But one of my favorite little details is Quark disarming the situation on the balcony by offering to by Garak a drink. An uncharacteristic gesture of generosity, made, I suspect, entirely just to piss off Dukat.
i really wish we heard part of martoks song in one of the other shows
I love all the Garak episodes, but a Garak and Worf adventure episode, pure perfection 🤘🤘🤘
Its great because you know that they don't like each other, but at the end of the episode they respect each other.
One of the biggest disappointments in my life regarding movies and entertainment was the fact we never got a deep space nine movie. DS9 was the best Star Trek hands down in my opinion, and Star Trek died with DS9. Voyager was kinda weak, and everything after was just terrible.
Enterprise slapped
Voyager is like the twinkie of Star Trek. Heavily processed, cheaply made, not very good, but it satisfies as junk food. Compared to the new stuff, it is masterpiece.
@@johnwenzel2756 Well said.
Honestly I think it's the best of the sequels but the original series to me is too iconic. Voyager seemed neutered
Man, another one this quickly?!?!?
Razorfist out here spoiling us.
its been out for a month on rumble
I forgot there was a Breen in the episode too. A regular Snake Eyes, GFS.
Never turn your back on a Breen...
As much love as Quark gets, he still doesn't get enough.
Scenes like where he talks Dukat down by pointing out that Odo would *LOVE* to lock him in a holding cell, or where he convinced the Vulcan Maquis with SOUND logic. Guy's smarter than he looks.
Martok: "There is no greater enemy than one's own fears."
Worf: "It takes a brave man to face them."
Is it that Garak is Tain's affair baby, or is it that Tain, in his position, he can't claim Garak because if he did Garak could be used against him?
Both, probably.
@@danielseelye6005 I believe that Melia is Garek's mother as Melia appears to be the only person that Tain really trusts (more so than even Garek).
28:25 -- RE: Dramatic Reveals; No but seriously, *my single favorite moment in this series* when I first watched it. Martok has greatly improved from a writing point of view.
if the writers were not so determined to make dukat a cartoon-villain a heel-turn to become a "charismatic leader of his people" into a decline to madness as the very nature of reality bent to prevent his otherwise well planned ascension could have been done so much better.
instead we saw the lessening and mentality-swap of a character that until now had been affable if gloating/ruthless in his handling of those he deemed worthy of attention.
Or at the very least they could have admitted that he had a bit of a point.
I just watched the DS9 episode where Gowron met joe Biden lol...
"We are pakleds... We are dishonest traitors... Your Klingon teleprompter is hard to understand "
I never knew Brandon did TV cameos.
Damn this show needs a come back... With a different show runner in these dark times
My week is already infinitely better now that we have another Depths of DS9, God fucking speed.
Baby! How cool this is back on CZcams ❤
I love reminiscing about DS9 with you guys; you are hilarious. It's such a nice thing to have some discussion because I watched the all the series by myself
:)
I always loved the scene where Garak is trying to stop himself from having another panic attack and says to himself "Don't worry Elm your friends are outside you're safe."
Riding hound? How did I not catch that line before. Now all I can think about is a Cardassian riding a giant dog 😂😅
Ya'll need to make "There's something coming through the wormhole!" a Superchat, with that 1000-times-reused animation from episode 1 as the icon
Let's go boys.
🫡
Godspeed!
They absolutely made Gul Dukat's heel turn occur too abruptly...but then I also think they never expected Marc Alaimo to portray him with such charming swagger. Credit to him, he took the "every villain is the hero of his own story" to heart and really ran with it. I still say as brilliant as this show was, I would always want to see from this point on, Dukat still written as a grey character who ultimately ended a villain, rather than going full on psychotic genocidal demo possessed who kicks blind puppies on Christmas.
Jeez, which heel face turn? I remember at least four, lol. Dispassionate writers would have thought to color him as a monster by the consequences of his actions, not through ham-fistedly changing his alliances (or his face, ffs). He'd have been plenty villainous by making selfish decisions that harm everyone around him, then acting the victim (or just denying responsibility) but that was too hard for the writing staff. Have him blame & deny enough, and he'd be as hated as Kai Winn, if that was the goal. Honestly, I think the problem is that writing Dukat's motives /correctly/ caused Behr some...uncomfortable introspection, ergo the poor handling of that character.
I miss good star trek
DS9: The engineering extension courses at Starfleet Medical Bashir took are useless.
TNG: Lieutenant Geordi La Forge: So, Worf, why the interest in this? It's just routine maintenance on the sensor assemblies.
Lieutenant Worf: Simple, Geordi. Our Captain wants his junior officers to learn, learn, learn.
Two possibilities for Dukat that are better options for that would be better storyline.
1. Dukat has been replaced with a changeling much like Dr. Bashir.
2. Dukat has been talking to the dominion for weeks, but in reality this is him being a duplicitius but towards the domnionion so he acts as a spy for the alliance aginst the dominion.
Dukat was my Favorite next to Khan and Kluge. And i hated what they did to him in Season 7 in regards to the Pah Wraith stuff. To think he's stuck in limbo with the Pah Wraiths. he should have gotten a better ending. I loved the interaction between Dukat and Sisco during Waltz.
Seeing him talk to and combat his manifested Delusions was great.
Gul Dukat's heel turn reminds me of a darker version of Prince Zuko at the end of Season 2 of Avatar: He's in the process of becoming a better person, but the allure of his original goals was too much, so he backslid into being a bad guy again... only Dukat kept falling. The problem is that Dukat should have died in the episode where he was trapped in the shuttle with Sisko and Dukat was going crazier and crazier.
EDIT: And yeah, this is one of THE episodes of Deep Space 9.
who doesnt have a crush on garak?
Gul Dukat?
A bromance without romance is possible.
It's called friendship. ;)
I think this two-part episode is my favorite out of all of DS9. It's a Warf/Klingon episode. It's a Garak/Bashir episode. It's a Sisko v Dukat episode. It's a Federation v Dominion episode. It's everything a man could want out of DS9.
Absolutely Great show in DS9, and a Phenomenal breakdown by the awe inspiring Razorforce.
Remember Worf was still a child when Kitamor happened. so his views of the Klingon ways was still in the lenses of that boy. In Canon we see a young Worf devouring Klingon philosophers works or going to monasteries so he learned the romanticized version on being Klingon. Also with no other Klingons around him he had to focus on inner honor and not outward honor .....his personal honor. This caused him to challenge the council when they blamed his father for the massacre....and to accept exile to prevent the civil war from happening early. This drove him to put the blade through Durass, but spare his son. His personal honor i what caused him to defy galron in war with cardassia. He is what a Klingon inspires to be. He is all that is Klingon and the Jim'hadder realized that. He knew the Dominion would never defeat the Klingons....all they could do was kill them after a long struggle of attrition were even they...breed to be the wrath of gods...would get sick of it.
Yes thank you for putting these on CZcams, idk if I can handle another app
Just delete CZcams.
Rip that bandaid off.
@@funkydiscogod as you're on CZcams lol
1:04:40 Wounded? What the hell are klingons doing with wounded? They execute the wounded. If they can't recover on their own, they don't usually treat them. This was actually revealed in an earlier episode of this series.
Maybe they're running low on Klingons by this point?
I don't know about Terran's mirror-universe idea. Wasn't this series keeping the mirror stuff pretty self-contained as schlocky fun? Isn't bringing it into the main plot not in keeping with how they used the concept?
I remember how pumped I was watching this on a borrowed VHS as a young punk in 1998. This is after I wore out the VHS of "Way of the Warrior".
If you think about it, its kind of sad that "Insurrection" was a film when this could have been made infinitely better story. I'm sure you could have thrown the Enterprise into the mix and made a great story.
Villain Dukat is a great character. He's just not the same person as Frenemy Dukat.
On the plothole of only Garak being able to do the job in the wall, I always took it to be that Tain had jerry-rigged it in a very specific way that only Garak would understand, so no amount of Federation bullshit magitech would get it done without starting from the top
Dukat's actions make sense when you think about Cardasian culture, of Cardasian first (Garak's favorite book The never ending sacrifice) . Then what type of personality would to be a death camp general, a psychopathic narcissist.
Just before the emitter array is activated, Changeling Bashir says, "Here goes nothing". A familiar throwaway comment which, in this case, was meant as the literal truth. And after the array fails we see 'Bashir' step forward with an ever so slight smile on his face.
But you already noticed that, right?
"I assume that's a joke!"
"We will see..."
😂
Great work, Captain Fist and Lieutenant Commander Gell!
I am absolutely loving these DS9 retro eps. Keep them coming! Thanks for all your hard work and great content.
Liked and shared.
Engage!
1:23:30 Not just in a solar system. They went to warp in Earth's atmosphere in Star Trek 4. They beamed up the whales and just booked it directly out of the blue sky with no worries and no comment.
These 2 episodes are among my personal favorites of all Trek. Just excellent from beginning to end.
I'll admit there are better episodes and all in the series, but this two parter is my personal favorite of DS9 and darn near all of Star Trek.
There ARE better episodes, but this is a strong contender for the Favorite slot, and there's not a long list of better episodes too.
I can understand why Garak is distancing from Ziyal. He is problably the equivalent of mid thirties to forties for a human while Ziyal is just out of high school.
And she's part Bajoran.
And he's a dishonoured exile.
And She's Dukat's daughter.
There's a nice long list of reasons for him to choose from.
@@chrisbingley
the part Bajoran part is the real deal breaker here, let's be honest.
Ask you shall receive, praise Razör!
There's one thing that makes Dukat being in secret negotiations "for weeks" work:
He's lying.
In the dialogue in which he claims it he's actively trying to sting Kiera, and if he makes out that his actions were planned and enacted a significant amount of time ago then that makes his conversations with her that episode seem all the more duplicitous and hurtful in the context that he's already outmanoeuvred not just her but all the rest of them too.
That to me is exactly in character based on his past actions and for his current motivations.
But he was already trying to get his daughter out, so it wasn't a total surprise.
I love the nostalgia, I was completely oblivious to it at that time as a kid, but I'm glad I get to catch up with you guys.
The important thing to remember about Dukat is that he's extremely proud. To be reduced to fighting a one-ship guerilla war against the Klingons for months has to be infuriating for someone who was once the Prefect of Bajor. But worse than that, seeing the state of his home. The Klingons are slaughtering their way through Cardassian space. The Maquis are launching bio weapons on their colonies. The Dominion threaten to invade the Alpha Quadrant at any moment. And the new civilian government are still dead set on trying to find a diplomatic solution.
After being worn down by months of fighting a hopeless war, it's not unreasonable that he'd be open to alternatives. By joining the Dominion, Dukat eliminates all threats to Cardassia with just a single treaty. And who better to lead Cardassia into a new golden age? Why Dukat himself, of course.
But yeah, Dukat leaving Ziyal to die is completely out of character. And there really is no excuse for anything post-Waltz.
He should have died in Waltz. The ending of that episode should have been the rescue crew finding Sisko next to a dead Dukat, still clutching the pipe he used to beat Dukat to death, with it taking at least a minute or two of screen time to get through to Sisko that he can relax and put the weapon down.
@@hariman7727 Or he just works himself into a frothing frenzy that kills him. And people just assume Sisko killed him, have that reputation of allegedly killing an unarmed man linger around him in whispers for the rest of the show.
@@DIEGhostfish I dismiss your theory because it's depressing and relies on DRAMORZ, which is having the worst possible thing happen because it is more "dramatic".
I feel like this is the first time I have heard someone recognize the Breen for going full Breen and Breening against the genetically engineered super soldiers.
One of the best series on the internet
Such great episodes peak absolute peak ds9
Yes! I love these episodes. Without a doubt my favorite episodes in DS9. Worf is great. Garak is great.
These two introduced me to Star Trek. From there I had to see everything, but nothing topped this two parter for me.
Deep Space Nine!
It's so fine!
Gonna have to watch it all 1 more time!
CLAP CLAP
CLAP CLAP
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I’d love to see you guys debate Mike Stoklasa of Red Letter Media.
ALso I do love that this is RIGHT after "The Uniform" I can imagine a HUGE portion of the Federation clammoring that Eddington was right, but should have gone for Cardassia Prime.
AY UP RAZORFIST
Late 90s early 00s star trek games were fantastic
I have just realised that i am forever gratefull to the changeling who impersonated Bashir for making any, Twilight like, Bashir-Zial-Garak love triangle impossible.
Worf meets Martok and a true power couple is born!!
When did warp inside a solar system become a problem? The first warp test (for humanity) was inside their own solar system. Without warp it would take months to get out of the solar system. The Enterprise warped into the Sol system to fight the borg. etc. etc.
That made no sense. They practically warp from obit in other shows.
This is going to warp while facing a sun, not leaving the solar system, so they have to stop at a very precise window to get to the Runabout in time or die anyway.
The original warp drive test was at a very low speed of warp (likely aiming at open space), and not for long, just so they could prove the new engine worked.
And warping into a system to get into the general area offers a little more leeway than "play chicken with a sun".
@@ElderRaceofMan Yeah they probably should have said "Towards the star?" and then "There won't BE a star"
I really want to play system shock again.
I love these and am sad that some are no longer available to view.
I always thought the Worf/Dax romance worked.
They had already established her affinity for Klingon culture and her connections to prominent, if not politically powerful, individuals.
So when they struck up a friendship, then romance it made sense.
So. Fucking. Glad. These are back. I think the criticism of Dukat's arc here was a bit harsh though. While there are small inconsistencies, the heel turn was in Dukat's self interest and realize that any inconsistency can be construed as part of his endgame and the necessary lies. Yes, he didnt kill his daughter. He wanted her to leave the station, come back home, and be a princess. Win. Yes, he sacrificed his career for her. But he's getting it back, plus much more, with her at his side. Win. Yes he could have had her leave long beforehand knowing what was coming. But he presumed, incorrectly, that she would come when called. Unforeseen loss. I always liked the villain turning hero eventually showing why he was a villain in the first place. Power hungry. Egotistical. And cunning as hell. Those traits don't go away because he was fired as prefect a few years prior. I always hoped back then the Dukat would give up the Kira fantasy badguyturnedgood and, boy, did they fulfill his evil persona. Overall, I love Dukats arc including the painful, but necessary, reformed horny for Kira altar boy behind enemy lines war hero bits.
Razor starting the DS9 review made me want to watch DS9 from top to bottom many moons ago as before I skip many of em. It's great that we are now starting to get into the really fucking good episodes of DS9. Can't wait for later episodes.
Ahh, been waiting years for this one..
If the Dominion War was like World War II then the Klingon-Cardassian War would be like the Chinese-Japanese War.
Or the Soviet Finish winter war.
Godspeed!
These episodes have more plot than 5 seasons of a Netflix show.
bangers season indeed the season goodies just keep spewing forth
It still feels bad that they never bothered using the back-of-the-Runabout set that they were loaned from the TNG budget.
For those who want to know, this link has a full list of everything Dukat did wrong over the course of DS9:
I see nothing...because there is nothing.
"For a long time, Star Trek videogames sucked; by the late 90s they started to improve..."
The F***? The early 90s gave us 25th Anniversary, Judgment Rites, AND Final Unity. Those were some of the most acclaimed Star Trek games of all time!
Maybe moustache man is a sympathetic character, and they wrote it true.
Probably the Yangztse or however you spell it
Glad to see depths of DS9 back on youtube and what a episode to return on awesome and Google overlords chill your t**s and let the rest of the depths free from copyright infringement b***s**t purgatory now on to the next one while I can
Bashir is also an Augment
Hush, dont spoil anyone😂
Sandwiches from Dr.Bashir's laboratory of horrors.......
War has been declared.
Final comment. Why the incredulity over warp speed inside a solar system? Cochran's 'Phoenix' achieved that, as did the Warp test flight programmes during the early years of Starfleet. There is also precedent for these with the 'Picard Maneuver'.
On the subject of which: since you mentioned it, in 'First Contact' there is an scene between Picard and Lily where Lily asks how big the Enterprise is and how much it costs.
Picard's response is something along the lines of: 'The economics of the 23rd century are rather different. We are no longer driven by the acquisition of things; instead, we seek to improve ourselves'. And, of course, there is no money in The Federation - but rather credits.
I have been wondering, for some time, when ardent Star Trek fans will notice the similarity between this and certain ideas currently being circulated. But then perhaps everyone has conveniently forgotten what the original Federation flag looks like. Look it up from ToS episode, 'And the Children Shall Lead'.
There was a reason that the original series wasn't all that popular in its day.
And what major event preceded the formation of Starfleet? Reference to it came up in ToS; TNG; DS9; Voyager; Enterprise; and even in the first episode of Strange New Worlds. An event that was laid down in canon (which so many want to protect) as something that happens in the mid-21st century.
It is an event that many fanatical Evangelical Christians, today, seem to be looking forward to; and an event that many early Marxists felt might be necessary to finally achieve Communism.
Or have none of you ever really joined those dots?
1:14:44 I mean there's a couple Excelsiors and Mirandas, older ships but not too badly armed. So SOME of starfleet showed up.
20:45 -- RE: Worf on TNG; Some of his best work was during poker scenes in Riker's cabin, which weren't infrequent but also relatively short. And yeah, that one episode where he has to unravel a multidimensional puzzle, on his birthday.
Dorn was a horrible actor when the series began but steadily improved and Worf epsiodes became something to look forward to.
This was a cracking two parter!