Would the Romulans Defeat the Ferengi in a Conflict?
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- čas přidán 30. 05. 2021
- Let's discuss a Romulan-Ferengi War
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I love the idea of the Ferengi ceding a "military" victory to the Romulans in exchange for a much bigger long-term *economic* victory as they get their tendrils into the Romulan sphere. The Ferengi are a 10,000-year-old civilization, they obviously know how to play the long game.
what's a planet or two when weighed against the potential profits of proper economic relations on romulus.
@@volrosku.6075 I think the Ferengi would find way way around losing any territory. Most likely they would start relations with the Klingon and the Kardassians to create a deterrent. Remember the Star Empire has been harassing many of its neighbors for centuries up until this point. Time for some pay back.
Very kosher way of winning a war
Since when do Ferengi have..tendrils?
@@tiezine9583 Perhaps the tendrils are those glowing blue whips that they have.
If there's anything EVE Online and the industrial revolution has taught me, its never underestimate the ability of a highly capitalistic society to rapidly build up arms.
Or purchase/bribe entire armies and the best weapons available.
Honestly capitalistic is better word than ‘capitalism’
One was a slur and another was a ‘istic’ of any slur
.’golden pandaistc’ ‘Great Wallistic’ for a example for Chinese for a example… the greedy merchant hand rub joke for capitalism slur for… who did marx hate the most and the one who coined capitalism (I’m sure it had nothing to do with his parents wanting him to ‘build capital’ as they said) seriously read about when Engles found out Marx was mooching off him fro two decades while Engles waited for Das Kapital, of course this was after Marx’s death and I think Engles left a note to his son (the one from the maid they Marx banged and engles took credit for to save Marx’s carrier)
Also capitalism is suppose to be private, private sector and so on; or ‘free market’ in other words.
This goes back to Roman/Greek times with private and public.
Aka: capitalism= ‘non-state’ (pretty sure it was used as a excuse for what states did anyway, so many fingers and hate in the pie it couldn’t come out not molested)
It also shows how much of a dumbass the objectivist group is; seriously if you can catch the Ayn Rand institute to pop up- especially on the January 6th protest watch the comments call them out on their bullshit.
They literally pull terms, and slogans Ayn Rand said to try and calm down the chat.
This is after them saying Trump was a fascist for… proposing sanctions on Russia’s energy and tariffs on China… calling China ‘the only free market’
Anyone remember what they did to the game studio of Devotion?
Looking at the real world, I have no doubt that the most capitalistic nations are also the best at arms.
Or hire third party mercs
Caldari has entered the chat.... ^^
I think the Ferengi would use mercenaries as well to increase their numbers, the Ferengi are powerful because of their economic strengths, second rule of Magic “your wallet is part of the game”
@WhyAmIWearing ARedShirt the remans while strong have no love for the Romulans, I could see them switching sides if larger numbers of weapons were to make it to their homeworld
@WhyAmIWearing ARedShirt Kinda doubt that, not like the Ferengi are poor cousins.
@@wastedxlll1192 Ferengi can smell a good deal when they see one. Reman hey buddy, how about you ditch those Romulans and come and settle on this nice world here, we will even throw in some free massages and some development funds to get your economy up and running at a very low interest rate.
Wouldn't work, the Romulan Empire would resort to bombing planets, including Ferenginar...
Conventional war? Big eared greed balls lose.
@@Rammstein0963. except I can see the Ferengi using bio weapons they are both cheap and effective
0:26 I love how Data’s been looking up at Picard all this time, but when he translates “caveat emptor,” he turns to Riker first. As if thinking, Picard can follow my Latin, but this dumbass can’t.
He's quietly judging riker an American.
@@joegrimes9232 This is 80s/90s Star Trek, where humans were beyond that shit. So, no.
And yet again, a time when the universal translator just doesn't work for dramatic effect, if it can translate Klingon and Romulan instantly, you'd think it would translate Latin as well. So many times when the Klingon characters will suddenly slip into Klingon when they want to insult someone, or speak privately with each other, even though they're always speaking Klingon, the translator just translates. It must be a sophisticated device if it can anticipate what words someone doesn't want translated.
@@Commanderziff Some of the Klingon insults might have no exact translation, and the Klingons might have some subtle way of turning off the translator when they make their asides.
I say might, because I really don’t believe either of these is likely. If they were it wouldn’t just be the Klingons who did it, it would be everyone.
@@Commanderziff I like to believe the translators are smart enough to not over translate. As anyone who speaks multiple languages will tell you, not everything translates.
"If the Ferengi could open up a McDonalds in Romulan territory..." lol
And serve Romulan Ale with the Big Macs.
Sounds like a reference to opening McDonald's in Red Square.
Tube GRUBS for everybody!
@@The_Viscount That was pretty wild when it first happened. Of course later there would be McDonalds in China - they still exist and it's actually kind of a prestige thing over there to go to it.
Omg yep. This is the way to do it
The Ferengi would have a LOT of Mercenaries.
Take that into account.
I imagine they would offer a serious bribe to the klingons.
@@temmy9 only the Scummy Houses (like Duras) would take it, tho
@@Rensune depends on the nature of the bribe and how it's presented. Sure Quark isn't the best to deal with Klingons but there's others that are
@@tomraineofmagigor3499 Yeah and honestly even just one or two 'scummy' houses leading raids on the Romulan border might be enough to make them reconsider the invasion. Especially if the Klingons smell blood in the water and the whole empire swarms in like hungry sharks!
Also they should take into account that Romulans are xenophobes, while the Ferengi are not... Many other planets deal with the Ferengi and though they might not be besties would come to their aid if a serious trade would be interrupted, I doubt anyone would come to the aid of the Romulans..
Using Nog's description of The Great Material Continuum, I see a massive problem with the Romulans even considering any type of assault. The Ferengi are not popular with any species and yet no one attacks them for conquest... For a reason. Like them or not, they have carefully applied trade with, not only themselves but acted as third-party middlemen between two or more species that normally would have nothing to do with each other. Including Romulans. Attacking Ferenginar would disrupt trade across all of the major and minor powers making an attack on everyone's business, and the Romulans VERY unpopular.
Not to mention they have a lot of liquid capital to throw around so, much like the UK did in the Napoleonic wars, it could throw money around to fund the war efforts of other factions into an alliance and/or hire armies of mercenaries and privateers (basically government funded pirates) to bolster their defences or disrupt Romulan supply routes. This would force them to detach ships from the main fleet to guard their conquests more heavily and use ships to escort supply convoys when they could be fighting on the front lines otherwise.
@Steven Strain The problem is that fear only goes so far and sometimes an even work against you. As a wise man once said, "a beaten dog may fear you, but the second you turn your back, he's gonna strike"
@Steven Strain To which I'd reply "the dog in this case is the people you depend on for your society to function. Harming them too much is like cutting off your own leg to feed yourself. It will work in the short term, but will leave you diminished in the long run"
Exactly the Romulans would likely end up starting a war with everyone, especially the Federation. They might preach non interventionism, but they would have to cross federation space and then attack a faction that while not allied would probably offer some sort of alliance with the Federation.
@@darman12able Naussicans, Orions, Klingons just to name a few who are not only known as capable mercenaries, but they're also known to have working relationships with the Ferengi alliance already. I also seem to recall reading a Rule of Acquisition that said something like "When the shooting starts, let the Mercenaries handle it".
War is good for business.
Peace is good for business.
The ferengi rules of acquisition, rule 34 and 35.
... remind me never to mix up The Rules of The Internet with the Ferengi Rules of Acquisition...
Even though they are FAIRLY similar...
You can't make a deal if you're dead.
rule 125
@@NimhLabs Rule 34 is very good for business 😏
it all comes down to context
Humans have a very different rule 34
*What the Ferengi actually did…*
"We'll string them along with negotiations, gradually giving more ground to keep them at the table. And while we're stalling the subcontractors we've hired will implement the long term solution they've come up with.
It involves the Hobus Star, that's all I can tell you."
Clever
There's an issue with that plan. The Romulans don't negotiate. While the Ferengi stalled with talking, the Romulans would grow impatient and just shoot them.
@@CelticVictory You guys are both batty. The Feds would declare war on the Romulans simply for breaking their space. With the assistance from Klingons any Romulan ships would be tracked and gunned down before even touching Ferengi space. Same would be true if China declared war on Russia and decided to cut through American waters to get at their enemy. With both Russian and American navies hunting them down they would not even stand a chance.
@@hackman669 You're making a lot of assumptions there. First, the Federation views war as a last resort. When the Dominion entered into Cardassian space, the Federation went out of their way to not antagonize them because they wanted to avoid a war. If the Romulans did violate Federation space to reach Ferengi space, they would try to stop the encroachments but they wouldn't declare war on the Romulans. Secondly, you are assuming that the Romulans would need to violate Federation territory to reach Ferengi controlled space. There aren't any canonical maps of the Star Trek universe. It's a presumption the Romulans would have to violate Federation territory. It's not a proven fact.
You also presuming Klingon involvement which is quite dubious. While the Federation and Klingons are allies, the Klingons tend to call in the Federation than be called in. The Klingons were uninvolved with the Federation-Cardassian War despite Klingon hostility towards Cardassians. Simply hating Romulans would not be a sufficient reason for the Klingons to fight against the Romulans should they engage in a war with the Ferengi. If the Klingons didn't assist the Federation in their war with the Cardassians, why would they defend the Ferengi against the Romulans?
Speaking of batty, your example regarding a Sino-Russian War would certainly qualify. China really wouldn't need to cut through American waters to reach Russia in the first place. Additionally, American navy vessels would simply warn off the Chinese ships and increase patrols. The American government wouldn't get involved in their war if it could be prevented. You likewise presume that America would side with Russia in such a war. Russia and the US are not allies and have serious issues with each other that makes cooperation highly unlikely. The US would have nothing to gain by siding with Russia and such an action would only strengthen Russia which is not a desirable result. So China's fleet would hardly be destroyed. Their ships would avoid American waters and America would stay out of their war. Ultimately, Russia would be on their own against China. Likewise, the Federation would try to stop infractions into their territory but Federation space is vast making it difficult to patrol. Romulans ships have successfully ventured into Federation space in the past and it's dubious that they could stop them. They couldn't even stop a Romulan ship from entering Bajoran space as they didn't even know the Romulans had entered orbit. Furthermore, since the Federation really wouldn't have anything to gain by intervening in another species' war, they wouldn't be coming to the aid of the Ferengi either. Federation desire for peace would keep them out of any Romulan-Ferengi War.
The Ferengi Alliance’s strategy feels like it would be named “Too Big to fail”
And we know how that turned out.
You watch Hollywood too much and think it’s fact
I personally never felt the Romulans were given their proper due in the TNG era. Especially with their more noble TOS traits basically being swapped with that of the crafty Klingons, who ended up overshadowing them in time. So we don't really get to see their full military capabilities.
Even when they finally got a big part in Nemesis, they took a backseat.
Yeah, it's too bad there was never a 10th film in the series which would give us a chance to see them in action on the big screen. Oh well.
Dominion war
@@yes4motivation not enough action, not like how enterprise took on the Borg
I personally like the idea that the Romulans have fallen behind technologically and so reorganised their society and government in order to account for their new reality.
Despite what we have seen since Nemesis, the series doesn't devote as much attention to the decline and fall of the Romulans as it does the Cardassians in TNG and DS9.
The Romulans were poorly understood outside of TNG and DS9. I didn't care for their portrayal in the movies, someone like JJ Abrams also is the wrong director for them. But then again in many stories today we have alot of waste going on, combined with poor writing and no real vision.
This scenario has the Ferengi without a contingency plan for invasion on their territory....I doubt they would lack such plans. Likely not the walkover some people think.
Yeah there is no chance in hell they don't have a plan. They are crafty, greedy and paranoid There is no way they don't have some of the most advanced defensive weapon platforms ever seen, Using weapons that other races would ban/never use.
@@starhaven1881 There is one technology that they have that would be highly useful in a war. The subspace transporter technology Daimon Bok used in TNG season 7. Even if the technology is too complicated or energy intensive to mass-produce, they only need a few specialized ships and they can beam out timed photon torpedoes or whathaveyou onto Romulan ships from the safety of distance. Shields can not stop the incoming subspace transport. The Ferengi only need some in-combat or recon ships relaying the coordinates of the Romulan fleet back for targeting purposes.
@@ENiceGeo Theres also the fact that theres literally no chance that the Ferengi dont have access to very very illegal technology from the Klingon wars and the federation/romulan wars. Hell the Ferengi have been seen with Borg tech in some series. Its highly unlikely they woudnt immidiately resort to threatening to release some of this tech to the other romulan enemies(or to the Reman resistance) just to get the Romulans to take it down by several notches.
My suspicion is invading Ferengi space would be like invading Switzerland. Plus they have likely put plans in place to severely cripple other empire's economies without firing a shot simply using hacks, the markets., and researching economic choke points of the enemy.
if they were pushovers, then they would have been conquered a long time ago and pillaged for their gold pressed latinum.
Something to remember about the Romulans is that most of their military would likely be for domestically keeping client species in line given how large they are and the fact their military is almost entirely made up of Romulans despite the fact well over 90% of the Empire is likely non Romulans given how large they are and how species dense the galaxy is. It's no wonder Romulans don't like an open fight, they simply don't have the numbers to and could easily collapse if, say, Romulus was destroy by a super nova.
I think this is quite important to remember. Same would go for all the other empires. idk how strongly this might count for those living under the harsh Ferengi capitalist system, not too sure how happy those would be in supporting their 'slumlord'.
May I know from which source you got these numbers? Last time I checked the Empire was half-Romulan (it could have been the Klingons though. I don’t remember).
@@theastrogoth8624 If either the Romulan or Klingon Empires are entirely half Romulan or Klingon, then that's a hell of a lot of genocide that happened. My numbers are logical conjecture based on the size of each empire coupled with how species dense we see the Star Trek galaxy being. In the case of the Romulans, this is also with the addition of their people being founded by a group of Vulcans who fled their homeworld a thousand years earlier (about 15 generations in human terms) and the fact that in Enterprise we saw that some of the colonies formed by the Romulans after their exodus failed, meaning that they would be likely have a much smaller population then, say, humanity within the setting.
@@daddyleon Honestly showing how client races are integrated into each empire is one of the biggest missed opportunities for storytelling within the setting. Say what you will about the Federation, Humanity treats its client races as equals.
@@ZontarDow Makes me think of how Online has the Gorn being integrated with the Klingins.
On a related note, I have always thought that, Mr. Offenhouse, one of the people the Enterprise found in hibernation, would have made a perfect Federation ambassador to the Ferengies. PERFECT!
I believe that actually happened in one of the non-canon novels.
It happened in a Star Trek book series.
@@TornadoHound I've never read the novel, but I'd like to think that the Ferengi didn't know what hit them.
Well now I am picturing a DS9/Futurama "80s guy" crossover episode LOL. Of course, the Ferengi would have him over a barrel if they had a cure for bone-itis to sell.
@@ryanatorryanson9535 Yeah, and later he actually became the Federation Minister of Commerce.
Alternate reality "In the Pale Moonlight", Sisko has to do everything he can to bring the Ferengi into the war to save the Klingons and the Federation's asses.
Easy as hell... Hold a big enough fundraiser an conduct negotiations and approach Quark, Rom, Nog an the Angus...
Once he meets enough "prices" or agreements.. Here come Ferengi an hired guns working for them to assault the Dominion
The Federation has probably been buying weapons from ferengi dealers since the Borg incident. The Defiant kinda looks like a ferengi ship
Assets*.
@@robertagu5533 said, "approach Quark, Rom, Nog an the Angus..." - Might want to involve the "Nagus", as well!! [ebil grin]
@@unclebearski3048 well assuming that is all the same thatd be the EASIEST race to get to join ever... Of course if Rom an them are still as connected to the Ferengi in this branch of the verse as the one we know... If not... Still easy just probably pretty expensive
Since there had been alot of evidence during episodes of their interactions I wouldn't be surprised if the Ferengi would bolster their own military with Nausicans. Although probably not for straight up head to head fights, the Nauscians would make great raiders and marauders harrying the Romulian supply lines which would be stretched thin, given the vast distance they are between Romulian space and Ferengi Space.
I think one of the biggest issues the Romulans would have, after the length of their supply lines, is that those lines run through Federation space. Though that may help them when it comes to protecting them against raids, since they have cloaks and the others (minus the Klingons) do not.
Hiring mercenaries definitely is an option. Breen to the north, Cardassians to the south. One episode Brunt has 2 Nausicaan bodyguards.
somebody wants attention..... whaaa read my name, be offended damn it
@@captianmorgan7627 In this instance the FEDs would simply declare war on the Romulans simply for invading their space. If the Star Empire so much as breeches Federation space they break the treaty of the 23rd century and war is automatically declared!!! Same would occur if, for instance, Russia declared Alaska and Canada part of it territory. The US would send troops to intercept without blinking an eye.
@@captianmorgan7627 They won't have any supply lines through federation space. The only supply they would become would be from conquered terretory.
Wow, the Ferengi Alliance are crafty.
I had always thought DS9 missed a great opportunity depicting the Dominion failing to take Ferenginar. I imagine the Dominion making a major strategical blunder by assuming Ferenginar's defense fleet wasn't anything special, but upon arriving and beginning the assault, end up suffering one of their worst losses. Indeed, the Ferengi don't have a particularly strong space fleet, however, they DO have the best _mercenary_ fleet that money can buy -- funded by the Dominion's war effort -- to which Grand Negus Zek would have been absolutely delighted to point out: The Dominion quite literally paid for their own defeat. lol.
Keevan's clone just as his ship is about to explode from a combined Orion Syndicate and Nausicaan assault: I _hate_ Ferengi...
And then Zeks gleefully pointing out that they are willing to open up negotiations because even if war is good for business. So is peace and the dominion oh so clearly has bigger problems than this little corner of space, but they'd always be happy to act as mediators in the future. No hard feelings.'
I simply don't believe the Federation would overlook a violation of the Neutral Zone treaty and their own space by a battle fleet of Romulan vessels. Even if we assume that somehow the Romulans have perfect knowledge of Federation sensor nets/scanning schedules, and that a fleet moving at Warp 9 isn't a large enough disruption to be detected in any case (a strange assumption given that we know the Federation detects random ships at warp all the time), and the fleet makes it to it's destination, that fleet is NEVER coming back.
As soon as the Federation know what's happening in the conflict, even if they choose not to intervene militarily despite the flagrant violation of every single agreement they've ever made with the Romulans, they're certainly not going to let those ships back across their space in the unlikely event that any of them survive being stranded that far from their supply lines in entirely hostile space.
The Romulans gain nothing from this conflict except a lost fleet, increased hostility from the Federation (assuming war doesn't just break out given how gross a violation this is), and an excuse from anyone who wants one (all their neighbors) that the Romulans are a dangerous, irrationally hostile government that must be either completely contained or destroyed.
The 2D map of the universe is inaccurate, for example in DS9 it is stated that the Romulans have a small part of the space in the alpha quadrant and are adjacent to cardassian space. In addition, I think that the spaces of individual groups are more bounded by star systems and there is something like "international waters".
@@tomasr. thank god I’m not alone in my thinking of how goddamn stupid that bloody map is and people thinking of it like a 2d plane
Your model shows the Roms fighting at the wrong end of a terrible supply line. The Federation would likely make that supply line quite problematic.
That's what the establishment of a beach head is for. After they have a planet or two under their control, they basically have access to all the resources they'll ever need. A supply line wouldn't even be necessary. Romulan ships are plenty big enough to carry all the supplies they'll need until then. The Ferengi just don't have the dedicated military might to repel the initial invasion. Much more so if it takes them too long to set up the suggested alliances in the video.
@@lordundeadrat You make a good reply and that reply is possible as there is so much we don't know or understand about the economic realities in Star Trek. However, you make a number of assumptions that I don't think are likely. A single solar system will likely have all the rock, metal, etc that the Romulans may ever need. However, I have an assumption borne out even in ST that to produce the technology they use, advanced civilizations like the Romulans and Federation need exotic materials, like dilithium crystals, not found in every system. In fact, they need access to many systems. Secondly, the advanced technology tools need a large infrastructure ala Utopia Planetia, etc to produce which would not be simple or quick to just replicate anywhere. That means the Romies will have a very long supply line. Further the Federation has a known record of being willing to mess with Romulan supply lines as we see in the TNG 2 part episode Redemption even when not willing to become directly involved in the conflict. Lastly, you indicate the Ferengi don't have military might. Ferengi ships are described as large and technologically equivalent to the Federation flagship. You have no idea how many there are, that question is never addressed in canon ST. However, the fact that they are so technologically sophisticated and how concerned Riker is about them implies there are a lot.
@@lordundeadrat BTW, there is also the question of just how many ships the Romies will be willing to pour into this venture. They can't send everything. They have borders with the Klingons, Federation and who knows who else they still want to keep protected. The Romies will also be working at the end of a very long supply line which means many of those ships committed to the venture will have to be working on protecting those supply lines. Also, regardless of how large the unknown size of the Ferengi military is, it goes without saying that the Ferengi have close economic ties with many of their neighbors. Close economic ties on Earth have always been the strongest pull to get allies to participate in wars. The Ferengi will likely have their own navy consisting of at least hundreds of technologically sophisticated vessels, a large number probably several times that in allies of varying numbers and capability and the Federation messing with Romulan supply routes. I give the Ferengi good odds on repelling an invasion. You may wish to see my other post about "Imagining such a conflict."
His argument fell apart the moment he said the Federation would stay neutral while Romulan fleets passed through Federation territory. They aren't even supposed to be in the Neutral Zone. The Federation could be split in two if the "passing Romulan fleets" decided to seize the space they were transiting - something far more valuable to the Romulans, and far easier to hold, than anything that can be taken from the Ferengi.
So this war wouldn't happen, but if it did it would be a curb stomp for the Ferengi, because they would easily be able to form an alliance with the Federation and Klingons.
@@XTINFILM No, they wouldn't. The Federation is unlikely to form an alliance with the Ferengi. The Federation would try to stop Romulan ships from crossing through their territory but with such extensive territory, the Federation would have a hard time stopping them. Additionally, the Klingons despise the Ferengi and wouldn't come to their aid either. You're right about this war not happening as the Ferengi have nothing the Romulans want, but it's the Ferengi who would get curb stomped. The Ferengi can't compete with the Romulan military. They couldn't even compete with the Lytasians.
"Permit me to issue and control the money of a nation, and I care not who makes its laws."
The ferengi understand this, and so while the war would end in a romulan victory, the Ferengi would get an economic hold on the romulans. And giving up 2 star systems for the ability to influence the economic fortunes of an interstellar empire? Well that's a very good deal.
Honestly, this is the likeliest outcome. The Ferengi can't compete with the Romulans militarily. However, the Ferengi are merchants and would just do business under Romulan hegemony.
Oy Vey
Romulans have unique tech I could see the Ferengi choking the market around their esoteric materials. The Ferengi are also hilariously vulnerable to bribery so the Romulans could maybe capsize them through subterfuge.
perhaps but the most profitable ferengis could see the long term issues with that.
@@jhoughjr1 Hustling a hustler is always a dangerous game, right? I can actually see the Tal Shiar having a difficult time keeping pace with the intricate web of bribes and secret agreements. Out maneuvered by more "in the know" Farangi bosses and politicians. Frustrated at every turn because they don't understand how deep it all runs.
All really great ideas! 😲😅
@@lordundeadrat I could see the Grand Nagus laughing his ass off when the Tal Shiar tried that. The Ferengi basically turning it into a game to see how many Tal Shiar bribes they could hoover up.
@@BOYVIRGO666 Or the Romulan rubs their brow and just .. bribes .. the Ferengi to go and offer a few business deals to their lest favorite person to get screwed over.
An interesting twist. I especially like how, inspite of themselves, the Klingons, actually end up helping the Ferengi. Also, in the end, even though it would look like the Romulans, won the fight/war, they really end up feeding the Ferengi economy, gradually taking over the Star Empire, from the inside out.
.....Irony..in massive shiploads.
I have a feeling that the ferengi field considerably more powerful technology in their top of the line ships as well as privately held ships. They are capitalists. They have to have the best and most expensive technology available. That means they are probably buying and stealing state of the art, black ops, or custom technology. In Star Trek with technology and science being considerably more lax than real life, I imagine they have access to stuff that would make discovery look like it wasn’t so top of the line back in that century.
I always felt that ST disrespected the Ferengi because of their disdain for their hypercapitalist ways. We really don't know much about the size and strength of the Ferengi from canon sources. We do know they are technologically comparable by ST TNG based on the way they responded on the Enterprise. We also know they might be pretty big because during ST:E, some Ferengi got close to Earth. As such they should be able to give the Romulans quite a run for their money.
Whatever tech they have they sell to make a profit and then that tech can be reverse-engineered by the buyer, so the Ferengi can't be too far ahead of everyone else.
@@hemaccabe4292 not at all. They were reinvented because the fans hated the the gremlin like creatures they were first introduced as.
I'm not referring to that. Even as we get to know the Ferengi during DS9, they are constantly, subtly belittled. The Ferengi built a technology infrastructure equivalent to the ENTIRE Federation. That's no mean feat. That almost certainly means they control an economy roughly the size of the Federation. They're a big deal. We might not find their means savory, but they are effective.
@@hemaccabe4292 Well it wasn't subtle and it wasn't black and white. The writers let us know the prejudice some groups like the federation had against the Ferengi and the Ferengi had no issue addressing it themselves by giving us their own perspective. Like the below exchange.
"Quark : The way I see it, Humans used to be a lot like Ferengi: greedy, acquisitive, interested only in profit. We're a constant reminder of a part of your past you'd like to forget.
Sisko : Quark, we don't have time for this.
Quark : You're overlooking something. Humans used to be a lot worse than the Ferengi: slavery, concentration camps, interstellar wars. We have nothing in our past that approaches that kind of barbarism. You see? We're nothing like you... we're better."
Daily reminder that here in the UK , our financial regulators are called the FCA
God i wish i could check their employee records for anyone with the last name "Brunt" lmao
They all take the same bribes
I dont get what you mean, "Financial Services Authority " doesnt sound weird to me
FCA, or Fiat-Chrysler America, is now Stellantis.
@@ayylmao2190 FCA are basically the Ferengi police forces. Ferengi Commerce Authority. That is the original comment is hilarious.
The Romulan force is on its own and being ground down bit by bit - unable to be reinforced, isolated from the home territory by the Federation and the Klingons. Basically a tiny little foothold that is essentially untenable in the long run. All the Ferengi have to do is contain them and bit by bit shrink that containment and there would be nothing the Romulans could do, except abandon the mission, declare the mission as being led by a renegade faction and completely disavow them. In turn, the increasingly restricted and harrassed by insurgents, the Ferengi declare peace - after paying off the remaining Romulans, scattering them to hundreds of planets (I mean they can't go home) and seizing their ships. In a fell swoop, the Romulans look like fools and the Ferengi get a windfall of technology, which they reverse engineer for their own, and then sell it all to the Federation, for a price of course. On Romulus, there would be a series of purges and "anti-corruption" trials and then a new threat ginned up - probably the Uighurs, or something like that.
Love that you brought this topic up. In the PC Game "Birth of the Federation" the Ferengi are are probably one of the most powerful factions since they can more or less just buy more ships and defeat everyone else.
The fight would be 2 hits long: the Romulans hit the Ferengi, and the Ferengi hit the ground!
Rocky quote
While they are not warriors they do have ships powerful enough to fight a pre-Dominion War era Galaxy-class starship on more or less equal terms. They can probably effectively challenge and deal considerable damage to but not outright defeat a D'deridex-class one-on-one, probably not even two-on-one.
@@chrismc410 But Romulan ships wouldn't likely be traveling alone. A marauder would likely be facing off against three warbirds at once, possibly more.
Rule of Acquisition 431: When the shooting starts, let the mercenaries handle it.
@@chrismc410 one issue there ... to shoot at D'Deridex, you kinda have to FIND IT FIRST ... D'Deridex is more than a match for a Galaxy class in stand up fight... now add a cloak into the mix ...
add to that combat inexperienced crew prone to panicking vs well trained military ...
The problem is Ferengi seemed more like a corporate ruled planet because of so many regulations they have to adhere to. A true Capitalistic system would mean less regulations and no government oversight
Agreed.
>FeRiNgi R LiBeRtArIaNs
Right, with their king, their oppressive regulations, and having no concept of the NAP. Total libertarians, yo.
@@VVeremoose Monarch Libertarianism? Damn what kind of polball would THAT look like.
What regulations?
I don't know, they seem like the natural outcome of capitalism...
Monopoly and abuse of power...
@@Bitchslapper316 rules of acquisition. The FCA, etc
Travel times, maps, and warp speed are so inconsistent sometimes in the Trek universe... Seeing the space between the Ferengi and Romulan borders is similar to the distance between earth and DS9, yet in DS9 a ship can get from earth to DS9 in about 3-9 days depending on the episode.
If you map out just season 1 of TNG they travel at least 4000 light years based on this map, and that includes spending days at a time on one planet and having entire trips excluded from what we know their journey to be. Given that we know that TNG is roughly 1yr/season, that means they can travel at least 4000 lightyears/year, or about 11 lightyears per day. Also, I don't know where he came up with 2000 light years. Based on that map its about 75. So based on this we can guess it would take them a week or two to get there. (For sanity sake I just ignore the whole Voyager 75,000 light years in 75 years because its the biggest deviation that I have found in the speed of star trek ships)
@@dash4800 The difference between tv writers and RPG table top games.
Tv .. distance travel times is base on a single episode plot.
RPG .. nearly everything is map out in hard numbers on paper.
Given in DS9, the Romulan fleet often appeared just in time to help out with a Dominion invasion, or Quark and Rom liked to pop home on occasion, or the Grand Nagus/Brunt to DS9 - a year or 4 to travel between the two empires doesn't make much sense to me
In DS9 we had the dominion going through Romulan space to attack the federation and obviously a border to the cardasian space near romulan space. One would assume in 3d the powers on the left and right often have connections above/below the federation. Space isnt 2D
Never in my life have I ever needed something so much, yet didn't know, until I had received it.
I enjoyed your video.
Ferengi Military vs Romulan Military: Yeah, the Ferengi get pasted. The odd Daimons make a pretty good pirate and marrauder - but for the same reasons they do _not_ a good military. They simply do not have the "lobes for combat". They would need to hire/ally themself with someone that does.
However, one should not underestiamted the Tal Shiar here - they are very well established for offensive operations. They had a Romulan posing as a Vulcan Ambassador for _decades_ - that is just how good they are. Every Vulcan in the Alpha and Beta Quadrant might be a Romulan in disguise, a asset to be used. So they would try to sour the relations between the Ferengi and all potential Hires/Allies. Maybe just hiring them first, maybe staging some diplomatic incidents.
Nausican, Orions and the like would be logical hires. While they are better in a stand up fight then the Ferengi, they might be most usefull in attacking the Romulan Supply lines.
The Cardassians would indeed be a pretty good ally: they got the military expertise to conduct and win a war, a decent standing force in ground and space, short reinfrocement ways. The Obsidian Order would also be a asset in a defensive war: While the Tal Shiar is a good offensive Secret Service, the Obsidian Order is primarily focussed on Occupation, Counter-Epsionage and internal security.
Good point on the Klingons or Section 31 seizing the opportunity to disrupt the Empire. However it depends on how much forces the Romulans have to commit.
You summed it all up there. You should have been a writer for any of the series.
@@burtonwilliams5355 I got this all from the _actual_ writers of the series. So I would be no improvement.
As we saw in "The Magnificent Ferengi", they're not warriors. They prefer guile, deceit, and if all else fails, bribery.
Both the Romulans and Cardassians are extremely paranoid people. The Ferengi would use this to their advantage. But, their motivation is different...while the Romulans and Cardassians seek to expand their respective empires the Ferengi are driven to expand their trading areas. Profit over all.
I don't recall the Federation imposing a trade embargo against the Romulans, so while the Ferengi would want to trade the Romulans would seek to exploit this opening into Federation space for intelligence gathering operations.
@@christopherg2347 oh, o.k. sorry , but gotta admit was great thanks for the info rehash u ok
I get the feeling the Ferengi are too alien to impersonate with a little "surgical alteration." Like their brain structure would be significantly different, and a quick tricorder scan would reveal the imposter.
One year of transit time is honestly an eternity. If the Ferengi had that long to prepare, they could likely build up a defense force by buying up older vessels that were otherwise destined for the scrapyard or soon to be retired from the various factions. And they could probably also come up with some clever tactics to damage the romulan vessels as they made that long trip, or even alert the federation to the presence of a large fleet moving through their territory.
You can't alert what you can't see. The Romulan fleet would definitely be traveling under cloak. And I highly doubt that it would take a year to reach Ferengi space. That would be around 1,000 light years. I don't think those civilizations are that distant.
@@CelticVictory yeah they’re a few hundred light years apart at most.
I think one of the great things about imagining such a conflict is the spin that DS9 accurately showed about the nature of waging war, there are ups and downs. Today, we got a big win and the balance slides our way, tomorrow, the bad guys get a new ally and it swings back to them. The Romulans and Ferengi each have enormous strengths and weaknesses which would play back and forth in such a conflict. How they would play out is anyone's guess.
I would point out how Nog was able to streamline inventory usage which maximized SF combat potential in a way typical SF personnel couldn't even comprehend. Nog isn't portrayed as being particularly gifted at this by Ferengi standards. Imagine going up against an entire race capable that sort of hyper-maximization? Many things about capitalism seem very inefficient from an intuitive point of view but have proven, in practice, to be far, far more efficient than any other system that we currently have. The Ferengi have that system in spades. The Federation and the Romulans don't. A war with them would not be as one sided as one might imagine.
this scenario assumes minor nations would be dumb enough to make the enemy out of Romulans over treacherous Ferengi ... i dont know about you but i would gladly sacrifice trade deals that most often end up in me being swindled over angering one of the three major superpowers of the quadrant ... we saw how well Kardasians fared against the Klingons and they would be just as easily crushed when faced with Romulans.
Bro, you said reminiscent instead of reticent at 11:48.
Obligatory comment gained! Well played, Lore.
I'm told comment replies are an important factor in the algorithm too, so here's my contribution where I point out that "reluctant" would also work.
@@a-blivvy-yus Lore has said this outright. He gets more comments whenever he intentionally mispronounces words or mixed up words like this. Totally juices that algorithm!
@@a-blivvy-yus 😄
@@JohnNathanShopper As the saying goes...
If it's stupid and it works, it's not stupid.
Tough call, it depends on what exactly each one is after and how they go about it. The Ferengi's trade network means a lot of supply lines depend on them and they have access to advanced technology others don't, but the Romulans have an impressive intelligence network and could rely on propaganda to outnumber the Ferengi and turn their own logistics against them. So ultimately it's a question of Ferengi logistics or Romulan intelligence, and it's hard to say who'd have the advantage without getting into specifics.
As far as motivations and Ferengi influence on the empire's economy, there's one thing I could see the Ferengi wanting - and ultimately winning at the negotiating table: the right to manufacture and sell Romulan cloaking technology
Remember that episode where Quark was selling weapons in his holodeck. That’s the kind of weapons the Ferengi Weapon dealers have access to. I would bet on the Ferengi as winning over the romulans
Then you'd lose your money, once the Romulans devise a way to bomb Ferenginar the war is over.
@@Rammstein0963. they'd need to get there first. Knowing ferengi, someone has an IOU from a Romulan who can cash in and de rail the plan to bomb fereginar
Truth be told, I would give the slight edge to the Ferengi in this case, while the Romulans do have a major advantage in terms of training and ships. The supply lines will be a nightmare, being so far away from Romulan space and having to go into Federation Space. So it probably will become a boondoggle for the Romulans.
I can see the Klingons entering the war fairly early, with an attack along the border as well as having small raids Romulan supply ships in Federation Space, the Federation may even turn a blind eye (Starfleet Intelligence and/or Section 31 might even help the Klingons out in the search for Romulan ships).
And the reason for Klingon involvement? The Klingons do not like the Ferengi. They have no incentive to defend the Ferengi Alliance.
@@CelticVictory true, but they dislike the romulans MORE and I can see Quark's prior entwinement with one of the council houses bearing fruit here in.... well not a formal declaration of aid but more an encouragement for any young captains who want an excuse to go send there ships where the romulans just so HAPPEN to have supply lines. It isn't the EMPIRE'S fault if the Federation is being a bit permissive on who plays in their back yard.
In war, a wise General will bring with him enough supplies from home and forage for supplies in the enemy's lands. Trying to maintain a steady supply line from home to to fuel your army wll result in exhausting your nation's resources. However, taking resources from your enemy's lands in order to fuel your army will result in dissipating your enemy's resources, making their prices of that area to go up further disrupting enemy nation's infrastructure.
A lesson in the Art of War.
@@singletona082 Quark's marriage to Grilka was never supported by the majority of Klingon society. Even a member of her own staff took such an issue with their relationship that he tried to kill Quark. The Klingons wouldn't aid the Ferengi regardless of how they feel about the Romulans.
I see it as more likely than not. I want to say you're right about initial impressions (the whole point of that episode was how out of place and not belonging quark was, ending with the whole honor duel thing and 'fuckit you came here to see that man kill me. So I won't let you pretend this was anything other than a slaughter.'
Which is genuinely weird when you consider that quark just casually picked up a rather hefty chunk of pure Gold (morn's vault all the bars had the latinum leeched out of them) then crushed said bar in his hands. Imagine the kind of swing force that sort of strength can apply.
At any rate. Even discounting the ferrangi appealing for aid I say the klingons would still show up both by federation 'encouragement' and looking the other way, and 'it's romulans. LITERALLY nobody will care.'
I'd like to think the Romulans would see the Ferengi as an easy target. However, it would then turn out that they put up a much harder fight than the Romulans would have expected:
- The Ferengi would have used their financial power to acquire hitherto unknown military technology from the far reaches of their trading networks.
- Ferengi rule of acquisition "Make customers, not allies": Some of this novel military tech could be used to locate cloaked ships. The Ferengi would sell this tech to the Federation. The Federation would detect the Romulan ships crossing their space. This would disrupt Romulan supply lines.
- Ferengi rule of acquisition "Always be prepared": It would also turn out that the capitalist Ferengi have taken out insurances against invasions. These insurances fund defence contracts with other groups for "just in time" military assistance in times of need. The system of insurances allows the Ferengi to save latinum on military expenditure during peace times, but marshall mighty military forces in times of need. As a result the Romulans would have to deal with Klingon mercenary fleets as well as Breens, Cardassians and so on.
- Ferengi rule of acquisition "The enemy of my enemy is my friend": The Ferengi would open "subprime credit lines" to rebel groups within the Romulan empire for purchase of military equipment. These rebels would gain strength and create further conflict zones within the Romulan empire that the Romulan military would have to deal with.
The outcome of this would be a peace treaty between the Romulans and the Ferengi. For the Romulans it would be a recognition of their victory, but for the Ferengi it would be an opportunity to finally get access to the elites of the Romulan empire.
The decades following this treaty would see an expansion of Ferengi activity in the Romulan empire. The economic concessions of the peace treaty have allowed the Ferengi to bleed the Romulan empire dry. Most of the profit from value created in the empire now flows to Ferengi monopolists. While the Romulan empire still exists, its vertical power structure has proven to be a weakness:
Ferengi rule of acquisition: "A good bribe can open many doors": The Ferengi only need to bribe a few people at the top to make anything happen in the empire. This is much cheaper than in the Federation where there are many governments and bribing is not as cost effective. This is a good deal to the Ferengi oligarchs who now de facto control the Romulan empire through a system of bribes.
Great episode. Would love to see more like this one!
romlans: we are watching
ferengi: who can we pay to get rid of these guys
Dude! Grammar?!
@@slevinchannel7589 no no no no no
The Ferengi apparently paid the Iconians, but it was a long term project
I would also imagine that there would be a huge Ferengi counter offensive by privateer Daemons back in Romulan territory.
good luck achieving anything against navy that has faster, more powerful and STEALTH ships ...
@@Asghaad You don’t know how fast Ferengi ships are. Don’t know how powerful. The Federation seems pretty confident in their ability to confront stealth ships, the Ferengi might be as well.
@@hemaccabe4292 they are "almost as fast as Glaxy class" = they are SLOWER than D'Deridex
they are also "about as powerful" as Glaxy class" = weaker than D,Deridex ...
and no Feds are NOT confident against cloaked ships. against D'Deridexes they always count on the main characters plot armor, against Klingons they always face off against much smaller B'Rel class bird of prey...
Ferengi Marauder is outclassed in every possible way against D'Deridex even before you take the cloak into account...
its a CARGO trading vessel smaller and less armed (one "directed energy weapon array" and one torpedo launcher" vs 6 disruptor arrays + two torpedo launchers ...) vs pure WARSHIP
@@Asghaad You still have no comparison back to the D,Deridex. Even if you're right, how many of those D,Deridexs could the Romulans commit knowing they still have the Federation and Klingons on their borders? I would also point out the Breen, who nobody took much notice of, but turned out to be quite effective when they met a combined fleet including Romies. I think if you said the Federation, Klingons and Romulans were the superpowers of the Alpha Quadrant on their homeworld before that battle, they would have laughed hard. I stand by my previous position, both powers have strengths and weaknesses. A war between the two would be a lot like the Dominion War in the sense that things would go back and forth as both sides had strengths and weaknesses.
@@Asghaad BTW, I love that you're continuing this discussion. I'm glad to get to talk with another Trekker
I love this writeup. I also see the Obsidian Order as being more of a 'local' sort of intelligence agency with the Obsidian Order spread with a wider net. Each Are good at their own things and each behelden to ultimately totalitarian governments if not are the governments in fact if not in name.
Your assessments of the difficulties in prosecuting the war on the Romulan side are.... if anything understating the issues of a stretched thin supply line in a war where all the space between would essentially become hostile.
Nobody likes the Ferrangi, NOBODY. Everyone considers them rude, greedy, weasley, selfish, insulting to most sensibilities. Yet they are a part of the galactic community in spite of no wars being mentioned for or against them, with only the odd raider ship being noted. As others have noted as well as your own video, the ferrangi are deeply entrenched in galactic commece.
Funny that you bring the Klingons in as the vital second front given Quark's history and relation with klingons in DS9. Best part? Given those events aren't really tied to the dominion war, I could absolutely see that happening and thus the ferrangi/klingon alliance has a personal as well as formal basis to work off of.
As for your idea of how peace is hashed out? I can absolutely see the Ferrangi gladly ceeding a few clames here and there, especially on worlds with heavy romulan infrastructure built. 'Oh we absolutely understand the costs yoru people incurred to get defenses and a ship yard built in that system and will be so ver yglad to earmark that as your sovriegn territory. It's even got a great location for ... Other opprotunities. We do, however, insist on asking for some favorable terms concerning trade. After all commerce is who and what we are and we would so dearly hate to see these new worlds lose out on economic opprotunities.'
The Ferrangi will come out of this smelling like roses and the Romulans will have a millitary victory, but come out worse for wear in terms of material and manpower losses, and look worse in the eyes of the larger community while ALSO being further entwined in the ferrangi economic machine, making further war vs the ferrangi... Costly.
it would be an absolutely entertaining season long backbone plot to hang things off of and would love to see you revisit this topic.
Exactly.
Always fun to speculate. Great video.👍
You do know crossing the Neutral Zone is by definition an act of war against the UFP?
Yeah even if the federation doesn't detect the invasion fleet, anyone can look at the direction of invasion and the time it took to arrive and realize that they crossed federation space. If the federation allows it, they're effectively allying with the Romulans which escalates the war even more. The only option is to intervene against the Romulan invasion forces
Romulans would be at a severe disadvantage with no real supply lines. Once the federation got wind that cloaked vessels breached their territory, it wouldn't take them long for them to discover ways to prevent it from happening again. Romulans might conquer a world or two but supply bases take time to construct and become viable. Assuming the Klingons did get involved, that would mean resupply would be even less likely. It wouldn't take long for the Ferengi to acquire equivalent Romulan, Klingon or some other design of cloaking device and or sensor technology via the Federation nullifying the Romulan's primary advantage. Assuming the Ferengi could get the Breen involved (which seems likely) we might see the devastating new Breen weapon put to use long before we see it used during the Dominion wars. I believe the Romulans and Ferengi would be fighting a war of attrition as it suits both of their styles, however this would again favor the Ferengi in the long term due to lack of reinforcements for the Romulans. I believe if the Romulans are unable to strike a decisive victory early, they would likely turn tail and run. They are not stupid enough to fight a losing battle for long. The more interesting aspect of this scenario for me, would be how would any debts to the Breen and Cardassia be dealt with, especially once the Dominion war happens and sides are drawn.
The ferengi power draining weapons were mentioned but not taken into effect. These could and probably would be built in that two year time line and seeded along the borders of ferengi space. The romulans come out of warp and are instantly disabled.
Given the allies, even with stretched and thinned troops between the cardassians, the Breen and the rest, the disabled ships could be taken out before they are back online. Making it impossible to set up a beach head and protecting the ferengi from further assault should any other species try.
First, you're not taking into account the effectiveness of cloaked ships. Space is vast and anything like the tachyon detection grid would become impractical over such a large distance. Ergo, Romulans wouldn't have issues supplying their forces. Secondly, the Klingons loathe the Ferengi. They would be uninterested in joining a war to aid the Ferengi. The Breen are only interested in their own territory. They only agreed to aid the Dominion because the latter agreed to cede Cardassian territory over to them. As such, the Breen would be unlikely to assist the Ferengi either. You're also assuming that the Romulans couldn't resupply. They can cross borders with impunity. Remember when they sent a fleet of cloaked warbirds through the Bajoran wormhole or when a warbird was orbiting DS9 ready to destroy it? DS9 was one of the most important stations in the Federation. If the Federation couldn't protect one station from the Romulans, there's no way that they could nullify the advantage of the Romulan cloak. And without that, the Romulans would have no difficulty in resupplying their forces. It should also be mentioned that the Ferengi aren't warriors but Romulans are. The Klingons, Breen, and Cardassians are more likely to aid the Romulans in plundering the Ferengi Alliance than in aiding the Ferengi.
@@adamhouseman8501 I think you might be referring to The Last Outpost in which case the power was being drawn by the Tkon Outpost, not the Ferengi. The Ferengi don't have power draining weapons.
@@CelticVictory I don't know, the Klingons do generally dislike the Ferengi, but Quark's display of bravery in front of the Klingon council probably counts for something. Also the Klingons love a good fight.
The federation's ambassadore calling up the klingon embassies. "Hey look this is our back yard so normally we'd clean up our house but since we kinda want to take a hands off approach for when the negotiations happen'
'So you are being cowards.'
"We figured given your history with the romulans we wouldn't want to deprive you of the opportunity.'
'Thank you. Keep the blood wine chilled this will be a FUN targ hunt indeed!'
Videos like this one is why I love this channel
Of course we would, they wouldn't have a chance. Romulans have some of the best military/intelligence minds in the galaxy, the Ferengi are freighter crews compared too us. - Commodore Marcus, Romulan Deputy Commander, SFB Staff (Retired)
This video misses a HUGE advantage the Ferengi would use their financial power for... Mercenaries! Ferengi would be able to pay for mercenaries, pirates, assassins, and privateers. These forces would be able to shore up any gaps in the line, perform the espionage, and provide ground troops (having a few thousand Nausicaans garrisoned on a planet is going to make it a tough nut to crack). The Ferengi would also be able to outfit all of their forces with quantum torpedoes (shown to be available in DS9 when they offered to sell them to the USA) while the Romulans would have no way of efficiently resupplying there munitions.
Money is power, and with 2 years to prepare there is no way a fleet with no supply lines or reinforcement could ever hope to overcome that disadvantage.
If there really is no way for the Romulans to get to the Ferengi without passing through Federation space, I think the federation would issue an ultimatum: the invasion force will be escorted back to Romulan space, or the federation goes to war.
The Federation versus the Romulans, except the Federation is aided by the Ferengi who look to benefit from the Romulans' defeat, and probably the battle-loving Klingons, who loathe the Romulans.
This war would be over before it began.
Fantastic analysis!
I have trouble seeing the war go down as you describe. Take any time from human history where a merchant civilization makes war on someone else. They leverage their financial muscle in very direct ways, Carthage and Venice both hired huge swaths of mercenaries. Venice threw mercenaries into defending against the siege of Candia for 21 years before finally losing it. Carthage, after realizing the loss to their economy after losing battles learned to instead just bankroll mercenaries and use conscripts from other cities that owed them tribute rather than risk their own citizens.
Now apply this to the Ferengi... There are definitely poorer klingon houses that with only a little nudging could be persuaded to answer the Ferengi call to arms. The Cardassians could probably also lose some military units "off the back of a truck" or something in exchange for further concessions. Additionally, another source of potential aid is from among the Romulans themselves; they are literally the backstabby weasels secondy only to the Cardassians. Seeing how Breen field privateers, I can't imagine that the ferengi could not come up with something to pay them.
Also, pirates exist in the universe... "Hey, the ferengi government is handing out letters of marque... let's go get one and rob some romulan ships legal style!" Just for scale on how this can go badly, during the United States Civil war, the Confederacy bought a ship from the British, crewed it with their own officers, but the crew were all technically British mercenaries, the ship cost $47,500 to build but caused $6,000,000 in economic damage to the Union.
This war would definitely go far worse for the Romulans than you present, possibly even resulting in a Ferengi victory and some unfavorable treaties afterward, not unlike the opium wars between the British and Chinese.
I was thinking that. If you're not one of the Great Houses of the Klingon Empire, you're basically left fighting over table scraps. Going and fighting for the Ferengi would afford you a chance at earning glory in battle, and it would also provide resources that would fund your gaining standing in the Empire. That it was done by somewhat underhanded means would be politely ignored by most unless a given House had a grudge against you.
As for the Romulans themselves, no doubt some senator or other powerful individual would see it as an opportunity to get one over on their rival - especially if said rival was in command of the expeditionary force. Romulan would almost certainly end up fighting Romulan in such a conflict.
I disagree. The Ferengi are one of the richest nations in ST, they will use that to pay for mercenaries from all over the alpha and beta quadrents, who would then pound the Romulans.
After the ceasefire the ferengi send an invoice to the romulans to cover thier expenses
They'd get the Breen on that ass
that's my thoughts too, they're being attacked by a superior force far larger then them, so they'd open the vaults and hire mercenaries from as far away as they can manage. They won't even need to pay some of the mercenaries since they'd figure out a way to trade something of use without having to pay them.
Then those Mercs raid Ferengi space, for payment owning.
@@simonwinn8757 LMFAO 🤣
As soon as the Romulans cross the neutral zone that is declared as an act of war on Federation so the Romulan armada would be engaged by the Federation and their allie fleets before the Romulans even reach the Ferengi. And as you stated the Klingons would have also launched a full out invasion of the Romulans. The Romulan empire would lose the war and with major losses to the Klingons who would gain huge amounts of new territory.
Awesome thought experiment
You got a good thing going here man. You get paid to think about the kind of imaginary fights I used to think about when I was a kid. Good on you buddy. I wish I had a gig like this!
Rule of Acquisition number 24: War is good for business.
I thought that this referred to wars between OTHER species, where they can sell to one or both sides?
Wouldn't be uncommon for member's of Romulan government or their military to owe💰 to the ferengi so if they come calling the Romulan would back stab his friend's to erase his debt
One of the problems with this map is that we know during the domion war the romulans were allowing domion warships through thier space to attack near the karrdasian union meaning that they had to have territory near karadassin space for that to work
Yes, 2D maps in 3D space are nonsense.
I thought I would hate this video. Turns out it was really awesome. Loved it
It couldn't possibly take that long for a cloaked Romulan fleet to reach Ferengi territory. Bajor is on the other side of Ferengi space, and a Romulan fleet appeared last minute in By Inferno's Light to prevent the Dominion from entering the Alpha Quadrant. They had far less time than a year to set that up, in fact, they only had days. Romulan ships HAVE to be able to cover territory faster than that.
Star Trek: Deep Space Nine seems to back your ideas. I do think the travel times are a bit longer than your estimate of days. It is more like weeks, based upon some dialog in the show and based on the map seen in Star Trek: Picard (see the map in the description).
When the Romulans entered the Dominion War, given how quickly the Romulan Fleet struck at Cardassian/Dominion border outposts (faster than the Federation Fleet could even detect it)... I don't think your calculations for Romulan warp travel are even remotely correct. 2 years is ridiculously way off for warp travel from Romulan space to Ferengi space.
It also makes regular travel with slower vessels (with transport ships) impossible. We know interstellar economy gets shipments out much faster than 2 years.
I think that's mostly because Trek has always had a problem reconciling the vast distances of intergalactic space with a hour long script. The only thing faster than warp 9.9 is the writers hands waving the discrepancies with the expanded lore. There are countless examples in TNG alone of the enterprise just zipping across impossible distances in the space of one episode.
I agree. There's no consistency at all in the Trek universe on how long it takes to go from A to B.
@@lordundeadrat - I think the TNG warp scale is too limiting. They should just say Warp 13 or something with higher limits. Actors having to say "Warp Nine. Point. Nine Nine Seven" is just too much of a mouthful.
@@lordundeadrat i think that's why they introduced transwarp which allows you to go even faster than traditional warp drive.
@@TheBigExclusive that's a good point! If they make future trek episodes they would either have to make the leap to slip space or trans warp or have to ad a few more fractions to the old warp 9.97 like warp 9.999
One factor I feel is omitted, is that the Ferengi would undoubtedly hire mercenaries and privateers to bolster their defences. It might not be enough to stop the Romulans, it would mean the Romulan fleet would risk being harrassed whenever they de-cloaked by various independent ships looking to score a latium prize by taking out any ship separated from the main fleet.
The Romulans would also be receiving a very cold shoulder and lack of supplies as Ferengi negotiators would be hard at work securing that any neutral parties only traded supplies with them, or at least refused to trade with the Romulans.
So by the time they reached the borders, the fleet would already be frayed at the edges and low on supplies. If they couldn't secure a foothold quick, they'd be in a lot of trouble.
In the scenario setup in this video the Romulans have no chance.
And the Romulans' response to this is to open a channel and send this message through all general hailing frequencies.
"To all mercenaries and/or Ferengi allies, we present you this merciful offer from the Romulan Star Empire. Why risk your lives fighting the full might of the Empire for a few measly strips of gold pressed latinum? When you can join us in shooting down the Ferengi ships amongst your ranks, and together we can both take the gold pressed bricks of latinum from those ships.
Option 1 - high probability of being completely destroyed.
Or
Option 2 - high probability of receiving bricks of gold pressed latinum."
@@shawn092182 Seems like a pretty bad deal. With the Ferengi, you would have a prenegotiated agreement with probably at least partial payment upfront. With the Romulan deal, you'll only get a payout if the Romulans win, and then your share of the spoils will still only be what the Romulans deem adequate. While Ferengi can be shifty, you still know what you get with them and have a contract detailing how you'll get screwed. You can only count on the Romulans to stab you in the back. The Ferengi would beat out the Romulans any day in a contract negotiation with potential "contractors".
Well done.
I think something to consider is the extent of the Ferengi economic power, and how while they may not have an exceptional fighting force, their open economy has cultivated a promising weapons trade. It wouldn't be too outlandish, I think, that the Ferengi Alliance could acquire some of the more potent of these traded weapons, and might even be boulstered by small private military forces. While it is not explicitly stated the extent of either of these, the weapons market was explicitly mentioned, and a plot point, in DS9, and what would a thriving weapons trade be without some equally thriving buyers?
8 seconds in and I think my answers is "yes, Romulans would wipe the floor with the ferengi"
The ferengi have the 💰 to disrupt the Romulan economy or make 💰 buy sponsor pirates and privateers
I'm gonna have to give this to the Ferengi, at least in a defensive war. The Romulans are "predictably treacherous" to quote Weyoun and the Ferengi, I think, are a lot more cunning than most people give them credit for. They would play so many dirty tricks on the Romulans it would be hilarious.
The Romulans are cunning in their own right. Being cunning in a business deal and being cunning on the battlefield are two different things. There's a reason why the Ferengi lost against the Lytasians in the Battle of Prexnak.
The ferengi were a very cunning foe in battle and proven worthy foe in to. I still think just the ability to cloak and appear at random locations and attacking week spots would be deviating for the ferengi with them not being able to strike ship yards also.
I loved how you told this story! and I would have involved the first Fedwerartion as they are neighbors!
The second map you provided at 6:25 says there "Romulan Free State" and that was a designation used after the supernova of the system containing Romulus and Remus. The system is missing there too.
"PICARD: If the point hasn't been made clearly, Commander, let me make it again. Romulan warships do not enter Federation space unless they are prepared to do battle."
That's about as far as their attempted invasion would go.
Exactly. The Federation would have to believe they were the real objective, and the "War with the Ferengi" was just an excuse to sneak a "Trojan Horse" in. It makes so much more sense.
Excepting that the ufp chickened out against the CARDASSIANS...
Romulans? MUCH worse
@@Rammstein0963. And yet, the Federation fought the Cardassian/Breen/Dominion Alliance, which was much worse than the Romulans alone.
I don't think the Federation wanted to completely submit Cardassia in the border wars. From what we saw in TNG/DS9 though, they certainly could have.
"Children study tactics. Men study logistics."
With the Federation as a buffer in between the two, the attacker would _always_ lose. Armies run on the logistics of their supply lines. This is why in the real world the US invasion of France during WWII was so risky. If the Germans could ever muster larger sea power and cut the supply lines the US military would crumble within weeks.
In the hypothetical here if either power were to attack the other they'd be forced to first attack and defeat the Federation then defend a supply line a year long. You can be guaranteed the defender would ally itself with the Federation even if temporarily to be sure they wouldn't find themselves with a nasty surprise on their front porch in the aftermath. Good luck winning against those odds.
Thank you Christopher!! Everyone else seems to neglect this very point. Attacking the Feds would allow the Klingons, Orions, Cardassians and every other regional power open range on the Romulans. In effect they would be targets for the entire galaxy. Section 31 and the Feds would gladly declare hunting season on the Star Empire burning they to ash.
Federation wouldnt interfere with ships just passing through ... interstellar space doesnt have borders, treat it more like "international waters" unless specified otherwise, Federation wouldnt do anything to provoke a war with Romulans, the best they would do is to negotiate a route limitation and warp speed limit for the passing Romulan ships.
11:46
Reminiscent: Tending to recall or suggest something in the past
Reticent: Reluctant; unwilling
A fun video and chat. I will say given how thin the Romulans would be here, I think the Ferengi would win and know the could but would end up with a finish like you suggested. Because in the long run that is better business at the end of the day.
It's funny how the Romulans rarely succeeded in their machinations.
To be fair, we generally only know about their machinations that FAILED. We don’t know how many times they’ve successfully manipulated the events behind the scenes in ways that were never traced back to them.
Always bugged me.
@@bastiaan0741 Unfortunately its hard to make a narrative in which the bad guys win. DS9 allowed this to happen with complex conflicts like the klingons vs cardassians and dominion war but a typical episodic approach is "bad aliens" vs good federation
@@ccibinel They were tricked in the end, bombing the wrong planet, and then suffered heavy damage. It's the kind of thing that i expected in reverse.
I’m going to watch and then be angry
Solid plan..
@@LoreReloaded Thanks! I thought you'd find that funny. Seriously though I do like the video overall, there are two problems with your description of the war. If the Romulans are invading, that must mean they have an objective? Is it occupation? Is it just to punish the Ferengi for some slight? The why will dictate the tactics of the invasion. Secondly I don't think the Cardassians would come to the Ferengi aid, I could see them working with the Romulans to split the Alliance carving up the territory and resources. It improves the Cardassian political standing by control the markets the Ferengi had and it gets them access to resources they wouldn't have had before. It's also in line with their thinking at the time. All that being said it was a fun thought experiment and I look forward to the next one.
“The more toxic elements of capitalism” can you please expand on that point because I’d like some critical analysis of that. What’s the non toxic elements of capitalism? asking only because I’d like to see what your opinion is on the difference between “toxic elements of capitalism” and “non toxic elements of capitalism?
I think the Ferengi would probably just Sub contract the military aspects (:direct fighting and warfare ) to species like the Nawsikins or the Orions and possibly the Andorions and then they would try to play all sides against the middle for profit i.e. weapons sales, food and medicine supplies etc
There is something I never understood about the firrangy interaction with Picard. They make their 1st appearance in TNG then right after that Picard seems to have an instant long history with a race he just met and several of them seemed to hold a massive grudge against him that go back years? This I don't understand. It's like there's some sort of time traveling whoop-tee-do going on or an entire missing season that involves primarily the ferrangi?
They'd just throw some Gold Plated Latinum at the Breen and have them handle it
The Ferengi wouldn't stand a chance and they would try to buy the federations help...
They wouldn't even need to buy the federation's help. The federation and romulans have a neutral zone for a reason. If the fleet gets detected at any point then that's it
Unless they have IOU for dozens of Romulans in the government or military
There are Sell Swords of mercenaries in the star trek verse
I think the Federation would get involved at the start because they would figure out The Romulans Violated the Neutral Zone treaty.
The idea of the Roman Star Empire winning a war but losing the economy sounds exactly Ferengi lol.
The Ferengi would be very capable of bringing in mercenaries - they definitely have the contacts and resources to do so and bring in pirates. But the Ferengi government is also far from stable; while not openly prone to internal rebellions or coups, they didn't have a real unified chain of command or central military. So assassionations, sabotage, disruptions, feints would be extremely effective. Romulan raiding could bring much of thier economy/trade crashing to a halt (admittedly at a higher possibility of outside intervention at this or the Ferengi in turn putting more resources into hiring mercenaries).
As was stated, it turns into a war of attrition that the Romulans can't maintain and the Ferengi aren't setup for. Even if there's a stalemate in Ferengi space, the Ferengi can hire -lots- of raiders to go into Romulan territory even if they can't touch it. And the Klingons will definitely be opportunitistic - this is in early DS9 where Gowron has just become chancellor after a civil war backed by the Romulans. It's a chance for revenge and retaliation that Gowron is going to strongly encourage to shore up his own power base - particularly with the Federation being uninvolved.
Large scale Klingon raids by the various Houses or even a full invasion are possible.. Which even if Section 31 doen't get involved in Starfleet Intelligence will be more than happy to share intel under the table with the Klingons and 'allow' slips through Federation territory, etc.
show me pirate dumb enough to go up against Romulan Star Empire and ill show you a corpse because someone THAT dumb would have to be long since dead ...
mercenaries means soldiers payd to fight, not to commit suicide.
I remember doing a paper in high school about the various factions in TNG representing the seven deadly sins. The romulans representing the sin of pride for example. I left the rest for you to decide.
I would have pinned the Federation as Sloth. Yes they are expansionist and exploritory but they seem to VERY much like the status quo.
Klingons are an easy shoe in for wrath
Borg are obviously gluttony
Romulans (and interestingly vulcans by and large) are chiefly known asp rideful
Ferrangi greed is legendary
Cadaassians would do anything to reclaim Glory
Lust can be many things However given the traditional connotations with the physical sort of lust? Q would make the most sense given they literally have everything they could ever want yet continually peek in to poke at us liniars. that or Riker.... by himself. Where do you think all the matter for the food people eat on the enterprise comes from?
small error. the energy drain was from the planet, not the ferengi.
I rewatched the episode and it seems at best either both drained or it was unclear ... Because they use the weak a and that happens then other things drain
@@LoreReloaded he is correct the ferengi didn't drain power from the enterprise, both the ships were being held by a device from the planet
Sluggo cola is now available on Romulus, Kronos, Vulcan, Earth and Cardassia
The Romulans curbstomp the Ferengi. Sorry, but it's just no contest. The Ferengi barely have a military, more like privateers who are hard to control and risk-averse, and can hire mercenaries, just not enough to resist the Romulans. This is assuming no other major powers get involved and the Romulans go all-in, in some limited border-war scenario the Ferengi might hold out long enough for the Romulans to come to terms.
The map may say it's 2000 light years but that contradicts ao much of the shows, the dialogues and the distance between Earth and real-life stars on that same map. The distance is more like 200 light years, probably even less so no lengthy preparation time for the Ferengi.
If the Romulans go all in their empire crumbles because it's their military holding it together. It can't do that when it's a few years away at warp speed. If they send a small token invasion force it will be crushed by the Ferengi + whatever mercenaries they hire.
In the map that is canon, as shown on Star Trek Picard, Ferenginar is only about 105 light years away from Romulan space.
@@Bitchslapper316 I agree with this analysis. The Romulans have always put the protection of their borders above all else. They would never send such a large force so far from home, leaving their defenses short handed. They would no doubt resort to other means to deal with the Ferengi, most likely in the arena that would hurt the Ferengi the most... economics. Nothing hurts materialistic people more then a shot to the wallet.
@@gulliverdeboer5836 I'm not just talking about internal issues. I'm talking about thier klingon and federation borders. They were fine in the dominion war because they made an alliance with both the federation and klingons.
@@gulliverdeboer5836 In this scenario the Romulans have to send their fleet on a two year journey across federation space to attack the Ferengi. This raises many issues. To start the federation and the Romulans have no treaty that allows Romulan war ships to enter their space, in fact it's considered an act of war to do so. As soon as the federation found out about the fleet it would prepare for a war which would almost guarantee a Klingon response. This would most likely leave Romulan space without adequate defenses to repel an attack from the Klingons and the federation if they chose to do so and would definitely cut their supply lines off both ways.
This scenario is like North Korea trying to march it's army across Asia and Europe and down to the middle east to invade Kuwait.
Your description of how the Ferengi would ultimately cope with the Romulan reminds me what I have read about Chinese history; they were often defeated by various "barbarian" armies, but within a generation or two the invaders had been entirely absorbed into the Chinese way of life. They may have lost the war, but there culture was just too strong. Also, your analogy involving the fast food franchise was both hilarious, and so very, very true.
No one can mess with Grand Nagus Rom
*"War is good for business". - Rule of acquisition, 34* . it likely apples less when you are the one under attack. i like the idea that Ferengi have an advanced business intelligence network, that they can use to equal the tal'shiar. but the idea that Romulans will find a way for the Ferengi to be bribed. or to draw people in to fight on their behalf. gr8 idea tho. -JC
I doubt that the Ferengi can lose! If their home-system is threatened they'll offer ship-loads of latinum to mercenaries, not to mention that Ferengi ships aren't all that bad, the richer captains probably have access to everything from cloaking devices to high tech weapons and shields and probably, if needed even WMDs! (Hell, on a planet a single photon-torpedo is a WMD! It is after all an anti-matter-warhead and at maximal yield most nukes probably look like toys!)
The problem with mercenaries is that ultimately they’re not committed to the cause. And using a WMD against a population would definitely turn every government in the quadrant against them, which would be very bad for business.
@@jayb8934 This is why you pay the mercenaries after the fight.
Ok let me break this down for you based off of almost every TNG, DS9, TOS and STE series. The Romulans are a regional power. They control an empire and they seek to cause troubles on their boarders to sow malcontent and allow for them to become involved in affairs there. Their interests are in small bits of territory. As such, they are very much not likely to travel 2 years to fight someone who has considerably less military prowess than they have and are of no real tangible threat to the empire. Moreover, name one episode of any Star Trek where the Romulans or Ferengi have ever sent an invasion force years across enemy territory to fight a war....it ain't happening. Not based off this map anyhow. The Romulans are authoritarians and they keep their military close to enforce their power, much like the Cardassians. Both the Romulans, Cardassians and Klingons are opportunistic, but only if the price is worth the cost. Well I'm not so sure that last part applies to Klingons who seem to be intellectual idiots of Star Trek (they think brute force can solve all problems and rarely if ever consider other options -- they always have to find the hard way to do things). Rational thinking often escapes them.
In the above described scenario the Cardassians are far more likely to join with the Romulans and pick apart the Ferengi economic empire looking for resources than they are to fight with the Romulans. Why pick the hard fight to win when you can have the easy gains and then employ the Obsidian order to take anything the Romulans may control so far from home? That is a far more likely outcome. The Klingons attacking the Romulans to take advantage of the situation? If it takes the Romulans 2 years to get to Ferengi territory then the Klingons won't likely figure out that the war is even ongoing for a while and by the time they figure it out and mobilize their forces the Romulans will likely be returning home victorious and the Klingons would be in for just as tough of a fight as before. Also, in this scenario we are assuming the Ferengi are a bunch of whips who run at the first sign of battle. The Ferengi have advanced ships and weapons with which to protect their trade routes. Just because we do not see it there is absolutely noting that says the Ferengi can't make or use cloaking devices. We have seen nothing of the actual Ferengi military ever. But like most military forces on this planet, even those in 3rd world countries, we must assume they have some well trained and well equipped forces that are at least somewhat on par with other powers. We can assume they are disciplined and will fight to defend their native territory. Anyone who thinks the Ferengi are just going to roll over and take it or hire mercenaries to defend them is probably in for a surprise. And if the Ferengi run it is probably for only one reason...ambush. I actually am of the opinion that the Romulans would lose this scenario in much the same way the Athenians lost the Sicilian expedition. It is too far away and the threat is to great to justify the war. The Romulans have been portrayed as crafty, skilled and cunning in their actions and they would not make this mistake. On the other side of the coin their is always the possibility that the Romulans could show up with a cloaked fleet off Ferenginar and use biogenic weapons to destroy the planet from space and just straight wipe out the Ferengi. Clearly the Klingons have done something similar in TNG's "the chase", so the possibility is out there. So are the Ferengi likely to go to war with the Romulans and risk everything for some small economic gains? Not really. Ferengi play the long game and they are definitely in it for the big score. Given that in this scenario the Ferengi and Romulans would have to pass through Federation space to have at one another, it would pretty much amount to Romulans going to the Ferengi and not the other way around. They have the large fleet, the demonstrated cloaking technology and the military prowess to conduct such an operation. Of course we have never heard of Ferengi special forces...let that sink in a moment. Perhaps they use Q-ships of sorts and maybe they can take the war to the Romulans. Who knows? I just think this war is unlikely and this scenario is straight wrong given the map we are provided.
*Border, not boarder. A boarder is someone entering a ship (usually without permission. A border is a line between two areas.
*Nothing, not noting. Noting something is noticing and recording it (traditionally writing it down on a note). Nothing is the absence of anything.
*There, not their. Their is possesive, "that is their coin". There refers to a place or when not specified, general existence.
My issue with Star Trek and the maps, is the inconsistency's, Deep Space 9 is further away from earth then the Romulans are from Ferengi space, yet in DS9 they travel to earth in days not months or years.
That was a fun brain exercise. Thanks for that.
I feel that ST shows a consistent disrespect for the Ferengi because of their hypercapitalist ways. If the Ferengi had to fight a war, I think you could depend on them to have ample economic resources hyper efficiently used with a ruthlessly efficient strategy. They could be very dangerous.
So the Romulans win only to loose and the Ferengi loose only to win?
Sounds like swings and roundabouts as we say in the UK :-)
I believe the Klingon's would view this as a Golden Opportunity to Hulk smash BOTH Feringi and Romeliun's making Glorious advances in territory, resources and Honour in battle!!
This would make for an interesting Star Trek RPG game campaign.
rules of acquisition 2021 you tube must have at least 5 ad on a video
The Ferengi wouldn't be bound by any of the Federation or Romulan weapon or cloaking restrictions on their warships as they arent apart of the Neutral Zone treaty. They could carry any type of weaponry they wanted. Including countermeasure's the Federation or the Romulans may not have.
6:07 Based on the stars actually drawn on the map and their known positions in the Milky Way, there are significantly less than 2000 light years between Ferengi Territory and the Neutral Zone. That's an estimated 100 light years.
The map seen on Picard (take a look at the map listed in the description) that would be considered canon by CBS backs up your thinking. I estimated about 105-110 light years based on the Picard map.
@@professorbrainyspecs7366 Most of the fictional planets are associated with real star names.
Zeta Virginis is a real star, 74 ly from earth. -> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeta_Virginis
According star charts, he is in the Neutral None.
15 Sagittae is the real star, 58 ly from earth -> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_Sagittae
According star charts, he is on the border of the Ferengi territory.
Adopted if both stars are in opposite direction from earth, the maximum possible distance from Neutral Zone to Ferengi Territory would be the sum of this, hence 132 ly.
But both stars are not in the exactly opposite direction on sky, so their real distance from each other is clearly lower than 132 ly.
First thoughts: "Would the Romulans defeat the Ferengi in a conflict?"
Umm...yes?
Even first season TNG Ferengi with Marauder-class ships?
Still yes.
Now let's see if this video changes my mind.
Edit: Okay, now I've watched the video. So the Ferengi only "win" if the Obsidian Order, Federation/Section 31, and Klingons help them, and even then, it's a negotiated armistice. So...yes, the Romulans win.
Great scenario! I love your videos!