30 Carbine Ballisitic Test - Myth busting Fudd Lore
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- čas přidán 20. 05. 2024
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Considering there are untold tens of thousands who have died being on the wrong end of a .30 Carbine. I'm going to yes, it's quite deadly.
People compare 30 carbine to 30-06, not understanding that it’s not intended to be a substitute for a battle rifle. It’s a substitute for the 1911 and in that context it’s dramatically more potent than any pistol
I think a better way to look at it is to remember that in WWII there were units armed with a mix M1 Garands, M1 Carbines, and M1 Thompson SMGs. WWII vets largely spoke well of the carbine. All of the bad rep the carbine has comes from Korea, so a more likely answer is the lower marksmanship skills of the troop, and human wave tactics providing a surplus of targets. The ammo didn't change, so it's poor marksmanship, not a weak weapon.
With FMJ bullets like used in war, it pokes a hole just like anything else. Plus, the gun is a lot lighter, easier to carry, control, make follow up shots and carry more ammo. Under 100 yards, perfectly capable. That being said, all rifles had iron sights, so there wasn't a lot of accurate shooting beyond that range, anyway.
I absolutely believe in the M1 Carbine. Especially with good expanding bullets. I watched a skinny 14 year kid ringing steel at at 200 yards like it was nothing, and 110 grains at 1900 FPS is hot magnum pistol cartridge performance range. Those little carbines got an undeserved bad rap while doing exactly what they were intended to do and doing it well.
Audi Murphy said the Ma Duce .50 cal and the .30 carbine were his most reliable guns in WW2. Enough said.
I have always been a fan of the 30 Carbine. True enough, it's not a .308 or even a 5.56, but it has more energy at 100yds. than many .357 Magnum rounds have at the muzzle. And nobody I know thinks the .357 Mag is underpowered. The 30 Carbine is known to be a round with good penetration. The people I've heard talk bad about the Carbine round usually are just repeating what they heard somewhere and have no personal experience with the weapon or the ammo.
It was the weapon of choice of Audie Murphy in WWII."Nuff said.
It was the weapon of choice for urban combat. For rural combat he said the Garand was better.
@@dwightehowell8179 I have never heard that. It is true but I have never seen in print that he stated it.
He used a .50 Caliber Ma Deuce to earn most of his Decorations. The Carbine was a Weapon of last resort.
@@user-ry6hd4kx1j He didn't carry a 50 cal.
Interestingly when watching the scene in To Hell and Back where Audie Murphy (by then a 2LT) was pinned down by two MG-42 nests, the actor playing the staff Sergeant runs up with an extra M-1 Garand and bandolier of ammo and said: "Here, I thought you'd need this!" (Before he himself got shot because he was standing up), Murphy then drops his M-1 Carbine and picks up the M-1 Garand to run up on the first nest before tossing a pineapple to take out nest #1, then commandeers that MG-42 to flank nest #2 , killing both , two man MG-42 crews. I thought it was peculiar that the eight round, nine pound Garand would be the preferred weapon to run up on MG-42 nests when he was already carrying a 15 round, five pound M-1 Carbine. I scratched my head on that one.
I get a kick out of those who complain about how anemic the M1 Carbine is yet these same folks believe a .44 magnum from a revolver is a cannon... not realizing they both possess the same energies of 900-1000 ft/lbs. 😆
I've seen videos where Chinese wool military clothing was soaked and frozen and the .30 carbine ammunition tested was stored in a freezer overnight and the 16" gelatin block was still completely perforated through and through.
Those stories of the Warbaby not being able to stop charging North Koreans boil down to one thing: misses. One theory I've heard is that those issued M1 Carbines would often engage at the same distance as those issued M1 Garands, not taking into account bullet drop at 300-500 yards.
I loved my Inland carbine, it was a very underestimated weapon.
How come the .30cal M1 carbines 110gr FMJ @1900fps bounced off Chinese overcoats, or was otherwise so combat ineffective, yet the .30cal 86gr FMJ @1550fps out of the Com. PPSh had a reputation of being almost an armor-piercing death ray?
I believe this rumor was started because the ranges that they were shooting in Korea were much further than the battlefields of Europe and the pacific islands where the carbine had a great reputation. I think they were probably making shots at much further distances than the carbine was designed. If you then add several layers of heavy winter clothing this might have been the cause. Like the M4 in Afghanistan it’s a great gun but not designed for those distances. So a soldier thinks he’s closer then he is fires at an enemy soldier that’s actually 300+ yards away in heavy clothing, hits the guy but he gets up. Of course the soldier is going to blame the rifle.
For many years, Georgia hunting laws specifically mentioned the 30 carbine and mandated soft nosed/expanding bullets for large game because so many were used for deer hunting and lethality was a concern when the mountains of surplus fmj ammo was used. It is a respectable round within its weight/velocity limitations.
Had one in Nam. Worked fine for me.
Salute to you sir.
my father carried and M2 in Vietnam and never complained about it.
Funny the Commonwealth forces loved the M1 carbines from WW 2 to early Vietnam and no complaints , and yes the Australian forces used it in Korea along side the US forces 🤔👍
30 Carbine is no joke. Seen tests of it zipping through frozen, wet, winter uniforms and out the back of a ballistics gel torso.
At 100 yards, it has the same energy as a 357 Magnum at the muzzle.
I think the soft points and the FMJs definitely performed about the same. I have some Hornady Critical Defense ammo in .30 Carbine and I've heard that it will leave more devastation behind, but I'm not 100% sure. Either way, the .30 Carbine round is effective, especially in home defense situations where the distance is typically less than 100 yards.
It is designed to be a 300 yard rifle. Certainly effective at 200 . To believe anything w/ nearly 1000 lbs of muzzle energy is somehow weak imho is delusional ignorance. Yet many still accept such misinfo...
I have a few boxes of Winchester hollow points in .30 carbine. Would like to see a Jello-shoot showing the diff between the 110 SP, HP and Critical Defense.
Well done. According to Gen. SLA Marshall, troops tended to fire at enemies at extreme range rather than wait until they were closer and the advantage of the M2 Carbine came to the fore.
Looks to me like it was shooting straight through and not making as much tissue damage is why they took more hits to bleed out. So after this I actually believe the stories even more but for the opposite reason! Its cause they shot right through without a lot of tissue damage. There wasn't as much destruction while shooting through as a 30-06, which was dropping people!
Hey that's a good theory! Never thought of it that way!
Yup it behaves like a pistol still, just at farther ranges. But to be fair, it was competing against pistols and SMG's
30-06 is about 2.5 times more powerful, but the 30 carbine is still effective at the purpose it was intended - better firepower and accuracy than handgun, but less heavy and bulky than battle rifle.
I won't try to argue about the power of the .30 carbine, I will just say that the first deer that I ever killed was with a .30 carbine. In on the right side just behind the shoulder through the lungs and stopped just under hide after passing through the off shoulder. That deer was just as dead as a deer shot with a much more powerful round and tasted just as good.
Been waiting for this!!
the object is to cripple ,,as it takes another person out of battle to look after him.
I don't think so lol not really how warfare works lol
I think the problem was soldiers were expecting it to do that at 300 yards. Within its limits it has always been a terrific weapon.
30 Carbine is not a anemic round. It s a very hot pistol round. There were countless recorded kills way out past 100 yds.
Outstanding review.
M-1 Carbine is vastly superior to any pistol and that's what the carbine was designed to replace. Officers often carried both! Ballistically, it's superior to: 9mm Parabellum fired from anything, pistol or SMG; it's also superior to 7.62x25 Tokarev or the earlier 7.63 Mauser (broom handle), many of which were slotted for the fitting of a stock , turning it into a carbine role intended weapon. Interestingly, 6.25 million M-1 Carbines were made from 1941 to 1945 vs. 5.8 million M-1 Garands from 1939-1956. That in and of itself speaks volumes about the carbine's utility and effectiveness.
The big problem with the M1 carbines was not that it was woefully underpowered, but rather the relatively poor accuracy. WW2 G1 M1 carbines were about 5 to 6 MOA on average, which is about double what you'd get from a Garand. This was considered acceptable by the government, as it was after all intended as a substitute for a pistol.
3-4 reasons this myth came about, 1st is the initial marksmanship training for service members the start of the conflict was nil. They were occupation troops in Korea with little time spent on the range.
2nd was during the mass Chinese wave attacks troops were trying to engage at 400-500 yards, the Carbine was designed personal defense weapon with a max range of 300 yards.
3rd is this is the 1st widespread use of M2 version Carbine with selective fire. A M2 Carbine has a fair amount of muzzle rise on rock and roll. Inexperienced troops would be shooting over the heads of their targets. The Thompsom SMG had the same issue.
4th is the Korean era Carbines were fitted with adjustable rear sights post WWII to replace the WWII era fixed "flip" sight. Problem was they might have been "zeroed" for the WWII rear sight by filing the front sight down. That would cause the Carbine to shoot high or low depending on the gun. I've owned many carbines over the years and have had to file or install new front sights to match the replacement rear sights. I even have 2 here now I need to file the front sights down on because their shooting too low, I plan on doing a Saginaw I bought recently this week and I really need to do a Inland I've been meaning to do this summer as ammo permits
Interesting results. Thank you.
Salute 🫡 awesome video
Few folks would say that a .357 is underpowered for a pistol cartridge. .30 thumps for what it is designed to do
People forget that the intent of the .30 cal. carbine was to provide a more effective sidearm to officers, motor pool troops and others who might otherwise be armed with a Colt 1911. No doubt the .45 was lethal at close range in skilled hands, but the .30 carbine was far more accurate and had either 15 or 30 rounds in the hopper to lay down much more accurate fire at greater distances than the Colt .45 handgun could ever achieve.
That gel test demonstrates what the problem was with the .30 Carbine. Penetration wasn't its problem. It was the lack of any substantial wound cavity that made it anemic. Note how all of those bullets poked right through the block like you were stabbing it with an ice pick. In the extreme cold of Korea those small wound channels quickly closed up as the blood solidified. The .30 Carbine wasn't fast enough to create rifle-like wound cavities and wasn't slow enough to stop in the body and transfer its energy into the target. Note again how the slower .38 Special round actually created a more impressive wound channel.
GIs in Korea shot DPRK and Chicom soldiers and were mortified to see them keep coming as if the bullets were bouncing off of them. In truth they were merely poking tiny holes in them which failed to bleed out, making it difficult to even see the wounds in the bodies of those soldiers who were killed.
Looks like the fudds might have gotten this one right. What happens when you pencil a deer? It gets away. For most of the effective wound track here, it's just penciling
It's always been a bit of a puzzle to me why the .30 Carbine suddenly became unpopular in the US while the UK was using it successfully in Malaya, the French produced prototypes of a new carbine using the same "weak" cartridge and _Dominica_ produced and successfully exported their own lever-delayed carbine using that cartridge, too. (The M1 Carbine's gas system helped inspire that on the SKS, as well!)
It has been said that someone published a "fact" sheet with the wrong muzzle velocity on it, and copies of this still exist and every so often the wrong numbers re-establish themselves as "fact." The wrong muzzle velocity in question looked to me, a few years ago, more like what you'd expect from the .30" US _pistol_ cartridge made in large numbers for the Pedersen device but never actually used. So that would be a transposition, rather than deliberate misinformation.
It would be nice to see someone shoot the Dominican carbine and give their opinions, because I am sure that a lever-delayed system would be fine for the power of the cartridge and would reduce the amount of precision machining needed in the gun.
I find it amazing that Dominica and Haiti are two halves of the same island, because it's sometimes almost as if they are on different planets!
Cool video
357 mag carbine=M1
My buddies father was in WW2 in the Asian Pacific theatre and was in many famous Island battles... He was issued a M1 Garrand soon as he arrived in theatre... He carried it 2 or 3 weeks said it almost got him killed multiple times in the dense jungles of the Islands they were engaged in fighting because the gun was to long to swing on multiple attackers coming in from multiple directions in dense cover at fairly close range... He said he picked up a Mini Carbine in 30 Carbine, he gathered up as many mags as he could find and went through them he carried the 30 Carbine the rest of WW2... He said he had 4-5 mags that were his favorites and if at all possible he kept one of those mags in his Mini Carbine and used stripper clips to reload... He said sometimes in an intense fight that he wasn't always able to do that but he was very adamant about his mags and placed them in a dump pouch... He said the Magazines at that time were the guns weakest link he said he had confirmed kills over 200 yards with it when he was on Sentry duty at their FOB... He said almost everyone in their Unit got rid of their longer weapons went to either the Mini Carbine or the Thompson or a 12 gauge riot or trench gun whatever you want to call them... He did say they did have guys that retained their M1s for that times Designated Marksman Rifle and they had guys with BARs for support weapons... He also served in the Korean War he used a Mini Carbine in it also... He was 51 years old when my buddy was born he was the youngest of I think 7 kids... His dad died when I was in my late teens, he never went into the gore or anything really crazy, just facts about his time in the Wars and service to his country... My buddy is about 10 years older than me he was in highschool when I was in early grade school but we rode the same bus...
I'd love to see the M1 Carbine platform adapted to fire the stronger 7.62 x 39mm cartridge. Naturally the receiver would have to be beefed up. The weight would like increase from 5 pounds to 7 pounds.
Ruger already manufactures a Mini-Thirty carbine chambered for the Russian intermediate cartridge which is successful.
Like you said it would pretty much be the ruger Mini 30
@@TheMilsurpMan Indeed. The Mini Thirty was about 7.5 pounds. The newest ones sported a 16-inch barrel and a revised rear sight more like a M16.
The myth came about from M2 carbine(full auto version). Very few to almost none of US soldiers were adequately trained in full auto fire of M2. The cyclic rate is quite high 775 rounds per minute. This without a muzzle break or anything else made muzzle climb a sight to see. So when grandpa was shooting a Chinese he more than likely put 10 rounds over his head
Gave em a good scare haha
The .30rd 'banana clip' was unreliable too. Especially in full-auto.
Ahh, soldier brought or ground soft or hollow points.
Thus accuracy dropped and clothing filled up the hollow points.
Anybody who thinks it’s a weak cartridge needs to stand in front of one
Could the very cold weather in the Korean War affected the performance of the M1 carbine?
I would call the 30 carbine a rimless 357 mag +p
Bullets to inspect?
It's a higher performance magnum pistol cartridge in a practical sense.
Maybe compared to a .22 mag. Sure not to a .357 in a carbine.
I've actually shot stuff. With fmj ammo the M1 Carbine is second best to a .357.
I think you reversed the entry/exit with the ball ammo.
I absolutely did not you can literally watch where it enters the block
You shot a 38 Special WHAT? No round description.
I know that was my bad. For those interested, it was a 38 special standard FMJ by ammo inc.
Oh for the days when milsurps were affordable.
If you look at the gel test you can see that while the round punched clean through it punched through cleanly. In other words, in most cases it left a small clean hole all the way through which is typical for ball ammo of a pistol type and shape. A spitzer shaped bullet tends to tumble more and do a lot more damage. Most pistol rounds, to be more effective have hollow points that help them deform and in some cases, break up to leave much larger wound channels. The .30 caliber bullets used by the .30-06 and even the 7.62 X 51mm NATO are heavier, faster and spitzer shaped bullets that lose stability and tumble or even break apart when they hit any thing.
The .30 Carbine when fired from a carbine length barrel is a very fast and accurate round that will penetrate deeply, but it's a small, light weight and very stable pistol type FMJ bullet that resists tumbling and expansion. While the .45 ACP suffered from the same bullet type problems, super stable and FMJ, it was more than twice the mass and moving slower and the issue 1911 handgun was not known for much in the way of accuracy at range.
I think the M1 Carbine was effective in a fight, but it was not exactly a one shot fight stopper unless you're on the ball with shot placement.
My father served in the SW Pacific theater during WWII. He was a recon officer with the 1st Filipino Infantry Regiment, serving in northern New Guinea, Leyte and Samar, PI. He very seldom spoke of what he did in the war. One of the few stories I heard from him involved the M-1 carbine. In a very close fought battle he had a Japanese soldier run down a creek embankment straight at him. That soldier was out of ammo but did have his bayonet fixed. Dad was a crack shot since he was a young man. He states he shot the man six times into the chest before running out of ammunition. The Japanese shoddier continued running at him. Next to my dad was one of his Filipino soldiers who was carrying an M-1 Garand, 30-06 rifle. This man shot the Japanese soldier once, hitting the man in the chest and dropping him almost immediately. Upon examining the Japanese soldier it was plain to see every one of Dad’s rounds passed completely through the man’s chest but failed to stop him. The 30-06 round stopped him immediately. With that, Dad gave his M-1 carbine to a wounded Filipino soldier who was about to be sent to the rear for medical aid and took that man’s M-1 Garand. The only other time he spoke about the M-1 carbine was when he earned a Silver Star. While moving downstream in a creek while looking to relieve one of his men who was about to be over run he came to an overhang. Seeing nothing ahead of him he jumped the ten or fifteen feet down onto a patch of sand. As soon as he hit the ground he heard several gasps behind him. Underneath the overhang were approximately thirty or more Japanese shoulders. Some started firing at him as they ran. Dad returned fire with his carbine, killing several. When he ran out of ammo he dropped the magazine and reached into his ammo pouch for another. As he pulled it out every round fell to the ground. The magazine was upside down and the spring was rusted to the point it wouldn’t hold the rounds in place. Seems rusted magazine springs were a real problem with most all their M-1 carbines.
I heard 200 and 100 meters the carbine was effective but at 300 meters you better off with a m1 garand
I NEVER UNDERSTOOD THOSE HORSEAPPLES EITHER -- IF YOU HAD A 30 CALIBER HANDGUN ROUND SPITTING OUT A 110 GR BULLET OF ANY KIND AT 1900FPS AT THE MUZZLE IT WOULD BE KNOWN AS A GIANT KILLER - I'M SURE THERE WOULD BE A NOTICEABLE DIFFERENCE IN THE REACTION WHEN BEING SHOT WITH A 30 OR A 30-06 IN SOME CASES -- A GUY CHARGING & FULL OF ADRENALINE -- I CAN SEE THAT -- BUT EVEN WITH A SMALLER WOUND CHANNEL A ONE HOLE IN & ONE HOLE OUT IS ALMOST ALWAYS INCAPACITATING OR FATAL -- MAYBE NOT IN THE SAME TIME FRAME -- AND I KNOW SOMETIMES THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN ALL THAT MATTERED -- BUT TO CALL IT ANEMIC IS A BIT MUCH -- IN THE MOST EXTREME CONDITIONS OK I CAN SWALLOW THAT
Except in a handgun, like my 7-1/2" Ruger Blackhawk in .30 carbine, that 110gr bullet does not approach 1900fps.
@@pb68slab18 POINT BEING IT IS NOT A WIMPY ROUND - IF YOU PUT OUT A 110 GR BULLET OUT OF A 3-4 INCH BARREL PISTOL AT 1300 FPS WITH RIGHT BULLET NO ONE IS GONNA CAL IT ANYTHING BUT AN EFFECTIVE DEFENSIVE ROUND --- ALL IN THE BULLET IN THIS CASE -- THE 30-06 WAS CONSIDERED MORE EFFECTIVE MOSTLY DUE TO VELOCITY -- USED A SIMILAR TYPE BULLET WITH LITTLE EXPANSION BUT YOU SOME RESEARCH WILL YA -- SPEED THAT 180-220 GR 30-06 BULLET UP TO 2400-2700+ FPS & YOU'LL GET THE DRAFTING EFFECT -- IT WILL PULL ANYTHING IT CAN ALONG WITH IT OUT THE EXIT HOLE -- SEEN MANY A DEER & ARMADILLO & COYOTE ETC ETC ETC WITH A STRING OF MEAT OR GUTS COMING OUT OF THE EXIT HOLE ANYWHERE FROM 3-7 INCHES LONG -- SIMILAR INTERNAL VIOLENCE TO EXPANSION -- I BET THE 30 CARBINE DIDNT DO THAT NEARLY AS MUCH -- THATS WHY IT GOT THE BAD REP -- TOTALLY UNDESERVED IN MY OPINION REALLY - PUT A110-125 SOFT POINT EXPANDING BULLET IN IT & SLING IT OUT AT 1800 FPS & TELL ME IT'S ANEMIC
it will kill
Permit an actual Fudd, a term I angrily detest, to comment. It was considered that the.30 carbine was insufficiently powerfull to humanely hunt big game & the surplus rifles lacked the desired accuracy for small game. 90%+ of persons purchasing surplus military arms back in the day evaluated them on the basis of their utility as a hunting arm. M1 carbines were often sold out of 55gal barrels with an accompanying barrel next to it full of ammo. We considered the M1 carbine a good "can" gun for plinking at tin cans. Original carbines are ridiculously overpriced & the reproductions are crap. Today a number of manufacturers offer superior quality pc semiauto carbines or pc lever action rifles.
Well, if we are taking historical significance out of the equation, I would rather have an AR platform over any junky modern PCC. But the carbine will always have more historical significance that you can get with these modern firearms. People who own carbines now enjoy them as shooters and for their history.
I get tired of hearing the word fudd , all said you busted no myth, you shot a block of jello and made fencing sword holes thru it .The carbine was issued for special purposes, jumping out of planes , officers, motor cycle intel soldiers etc . My father was in Pattons Third Army and carried the Garand and made 5 or 6 one shot stop kills with it . He was not proud of the fact either but it was war . He didn’t have a high opinion of the carbine and considered it a low power round. Many times they were engaging the enemy which was well behind heavy wooden barricades and machinery in house to house industrial Saarland . In my opinion the carbine would be a decent weapon for US self defense where innocent bystanders is an issue .
@randyblackburn9765 you take it as it directed souly towards you? It's simply a term don't get your feelings hurt by it. Also calling FBI standard ballistic gel jello? Seems very fuddish to me.
@@TheMilsurpMan yeah well I didn’t get my feelings hurt but yeah it pisses me off , you could have accomplished the same statement by “ myth busting folk lore “ but no fudd which is more provocative was used instead.Fudd which once was used for gun owners who supported many gun control measures has morphed into a term that usually means older people who prefer walnut over polymer and so forth and no one really likes being referred too as such . You used ‘fudd as freely as I used jello.
@randyblackburn9765 not really. It was that generation of baby boomers that spread a lot of untrue rumors. I don't necessarily classify "fudds" as people who like wood and steel. Most, if not all, my firearms are classic wood and steel. But it is often referred to in the collector world as "fuddlore" pf the myths baby boomers spread, such as the M1 ping. If it's not directly aimed towards you, then you shouldn't take any offense to it. To my knowledge, I never used any derogatory terms in my video. I only used it in my title. If you're big enough to make a big comment, then you're big enough to let a little world roll off your back. Thanks for watching!