The Future of Zelda - Part 1: Dungeons
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- čas přidán 13. 05. 2024
- Let's explore the future of Zelda Dungeons!
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Majora's Mask: Stone Tower Temple Orchestral Arrangement
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Skyward Sword HD Early Blessed Idol (EAT method)
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#zelda #thelegendofzelda - Hry
I’m still pissed that I didn’t stumble upon a forest temple while wandering through Faron woods. That would’ve been so cool
So many of the legacy dungeons would fit in the world. Never understood why they didn't add them in. The shrines are in their own almost pocket dimensions so they'd fit wherever they needed to
Exactly. These are my biggest criticisms of Totk (Botw gets a pass for being the first attempt and something new).
They could literally plot the game worlds and dungeons of the prior games wholesale into the new engine (I've seen mods to that) and it would still be more interesting that what they ended up doing.
I was SO certain Hestu would be a forest sage and there'd be a forest temple in the Lost Woods, maybe Makar Island. Huge missed opportunity.
I was hoping to find a temple in The Lost Woods because… why not?
@chamab.6800 could have tied it into the lore and said that the temple you mentioned could have been a lost Zonai temple for something hense the term lost woods since it would have a double meaning in that you always get lost in there and that there's a lost temple somewhere in there
Funny how I was with you almost the entire time and then you dropped "I don't need a story reward for a dungeon". Which, for me, story (whether in cutscenes or the environment) is a core motivator. Especially if I invest a lot of time and effort in a particular area, I need a "reason" for it and I need it to pay off in more than numbers or items. It's a mark of totk's amazing overworld design that it kept me hooked for 200 hours with a very thin layer of story but I still hold out hope for more in the future even if it's not looking good. Just goes to show how different everyone's Zelda experience is.
Ah that's okay ^^
I personally never really played dungeons for story reasons. I mean, obviously the narrative pushes you there in the old games, but when I first played OoT I had no idea what the heck was going on story-wise, haha. Sheik showed up after every adult dungeon... said some poetic words, and that was pretty much it. I learned to love the dungeon by itself. The journey. But I do understand you sentiment as well. Story can be a great motivator to push people thrrough.
yea same it's kind of a chore when i don't feel like there's a good reason i'm doing this dungeon lmao, which was a big issue for me in botw and totk because they were optional. in oot i wanted to save the sages, in mm i wanted to save the people of termina, it was cool lol
It depends what the story is for me. If the story is somewhat emergent and or atmospheric, that is enough for me. For example, emergent would be "the player decides to go into this dungeon because they need this Sword to get into X area, or because they're currently too weak to fight Y monster". Atmospheric would be things like the history of the place; the design of it, its current conditions, how NPCs refer to it, any ancient writings, etc.
That said I still think a lot of them (not sure about all or most, but definitely still a bunch) should be relevant to the plot and story.
Since the plot itself is divided into two, it would've fit perfectly for a playable Princess Zelda. And it would've make up loss opportunity it has with Skyward Sword. Personally I would like to see more of Hyrule in the distant past as well as give Rauru and Sonia more screen time, dive deep into the lore with the Zonai origins, and provide background of who Ganondorf is before he becomes the Demon King.
that's the same to me but i got to appreciate the lore of the dungeons and cutscenes, especially after i got into the lore and theory videos, and totk remember animes so... it helped keep me engaged @@MonsterMaze
Something I want if they're going to keep doing open world Zelda is the ability to just stumble across a dungeon by complete accident. I want to be climbing up a mountain, find a crack in a wall, walk in expecting a small cave and some basic resources but after going through a short passage the cave would suddenly open up to a big fancy room and it would go bwuuuhhmm dun dun "Ancient Mountain Temple." Of course if the dungeon is required for progression, relying on people just finding it by chance would be a bad idea, so perhaps some hub area could have a big stone monument on it that has riddles hinting at the location of the dungeons, alongside NPCs searching for the dungeons who can give more specific hints.
Additionally, multiple entrances to the dungeon would help. You know how a lot of dungeons in games and stuff have a big room with a hole in the ceiling that exists just to have a dramatic beam of sunlight illuminate the room in a cool way? What if an alternate entrance to the dungeon would be one of those holes, would be cool.
I appreciate the buildup to the story dungeons in the newer games, even if some dungeons handle it better than other, so I hope that feature stays… but I also hope they rethink the shrine formula… rather than a glowing beacon just plopped down next to a stable or something, I think it would be so much better if shrines were all hidden in caves and the various nooks and crannies in the map. and fewer shrines in exchange for making them larger and move involved would be a welcome change, too.
@@Sam_T2000 The main change I would do is to make "shrines" just a part of the world. Like instead of entering a cave that has a shrine that has puzzles in it, just have the cave itself be the puzzle.
This goes for other kinds of structures. Castle ruins, desert temples, etc. It would go a long way in making them feel more like mini-dungeons instead of isolated puzzles that are disconnected from the world.
And instead of shrines being teleport spots just bring back the owl statues from Majora's Mask. That way you don't need to have a shrine next to every town, stable or important location and you're free to hide them in the world better.
@@ridori7376 - yes, no loading screens and all would be ideal, but some of the best shrines limit the player’s abilities and inventory, so they’d have to find a way to keep that… I guess Eventide Island did the same, so it should work 👍
This. Stumbling upon the Master Sword by pure accident in my first playthrough of BotW was a magical experience I'll forever cherish, and it would be so sick if we could do the same with entire dungeons.
Plenty of Zelda dungeons dont reward you with anything critical to progression, though. So an optional, secret dungeon someplace would be cool even if it only rewarded you with a cool piece of armor or something.
Your point about the dungeon space being contingent on the boundaries of the world is true however the shrines do not not obey this rule. If shrines can have any layout they want, then dungeons shouldn’t be limited either.
Agreed. The Shrines do feature loading screens, so there is no excuse there. Perhaps it's because there are so damn many of them, which kinda forces them to spread their attention. If you only have 7 or 8 dungeons you can be much more meticulous with them, and devote a lot of time into perfecting the experience. So I guess... spreading that effort across 140 micro-dungeons might be the root cause there?
This is true, but it's also evident from some of the weird glitches people use to do tricks that the shrines also coexist with the overworld, perhaps in an unloaded state (I don't remember all the details).
I disagree with OP. Part of the enjoyment of the best dungeons in the series hinges for me and others on seeing it integrated into the larger world. It's part of the presentation.
@@MonsterMaze I think it definitely caused many issues. There were too many for the shrines to feel unique. The concepts are cool initially, but 50 in and they start to get boring and repetitive.
@@NickCombsA loading screen isn’t gonna kill that sense of integration for me though. Sure TotK’s dungeons blend in better with the rest of the environment, but I don’t like being able to view the entire dungeon as easily as I can in this game. Something about entering dungeons through the loading screen lets you know you’re in for a grand mystery filled with interconnected puzzles in an unfamiliar territory. Modern Zelda is like: you see it once you’ve seen it all.
I liked the Spirit Temple for one big reason. Thunderhead Isles. To me, that gauntlet through the rain and lightning was so integral to the success of the actual temple. You had this massive triumph of combat ability and traversal, then the decent, and then the dungeon itself. It was so different to me, and i think not including Thunderhead Isles when talking about the Spirit Temple detracts from the experience even further.
For sure! Though, if you do it the intended way, you will clear the thunderstorm before heading to thunderhead, right? I might be misremembering. I did it your way on stream, and it was hella fun ^^
@@MonsterMaze oh I for sure didn't clear it. Didn't realize that was a thing that needed to happen until I was already done. XD
well i managed to skip the thunderhead isles completely in my first playthrough, so it just made the dungeon even more underwhelming.
Yeah I did the thunderhead isles in the storm after ... idk... 2-3 temples? it really felt like I discovered a secret, I was a little disappointed that the main quest shoved you into it later 😂
I found it on my own before getting to that point in the story, so I did really enjoy that whole sequence. I found the construct factory on its own, then later noticed where the 'Dragonhead Isle' place the robot mentioned was, and found my way up there by machine, then opened the dungeon properly. I'd found the Master Sword too, so the rest of the cast was amusingly surprised by Link just saying "ya I alreddy finish game" after the castle sequence. Got some distinctive dial----
oh god! I totally left that archeologist dude out there in the forest even after I finished the game! XD
I really liked the BotW and TotK shrine concepts, but I don't want to see them return. I do want more traditional dungeons, however if shrines are the future then I want less shrines but much longer ones. Instead of having 150 tiny shrines, combine them into 30 mini dungeons.
I agree 100%. I think that after 2 games now, the current shrine concept has run its course.
This! There was no reason for ToTK to have the same amount of shrines as BoTW when ToTK added so many new collectibles/currencies not to mention the extra time to complete the shrines due to all the building stuff.
@@Ricardo7250 At the very least, if they were gonna do the same shrine concept, then at least vary them up in visuals more. The repetitive aesthetic alone creates a feeling of 'been there done that', though I'm sure it made development much easier.
Imagine if there are less shrines but you have to complete all in an area to unlock a big dungeon that combines elements from the shrines in the area
It feels like they were too focused on quantity and not quality. Honestly my favorite ones to go through were when they take your gear away and say figure it out. That forced me to use weapons and zonai devices in ways I never thought to. Like the one with the doglike zonai devices that go after enemies that also had the electrical beam you could attach to them. I would have never thought of that if not for that shrine.
Just as i was about to eat my dinner. Thanks
Same hahaha
Man... timezones are a hastle
For me, most of the magic is outside of the dungeons, but I did not grow up playing Zelda. Although I'd followed the franchise for a while for some time through let's plays and other videos, Breath of the Wild was the first Zelda game I played.
The best part of Tears of the Kingdom for me was the climb to the Wind Temple. The mounting music, the feeling of going higher than I'd been before in the game, a feeling of apprehension at the thought of falling, and that drive into the storm was incredible. That experience was actually better than the dungeon itself and I felt the same way about the Water Temple (also the Zora Waterworks absolutely should have been the location of the dungeon).
The Wind Temple climb was absolutely amazing indeed ^^, and while BotW wasn't my first, it did get me back into the series after years of not being interested anymore.
I am kinda old school when it comes to dungeons though. I like the enclosed nature of them. They create a nice contrast against the vast, bright and sunny overworld. In fact, I didn't like it when Skyward Sword basically made the entire overworld a dungeon. Because it made the actual dungeons feel less special ^^
Watching a let's play can't give you the feeling of puzzle solving and dungeon clearing yourself, so you can't know how much these new ones suck 😞
And the fact the lead up was more exciting than the dungeon itself is such a problem lol
I personally love the allies in TotK. Their abilities are frustrating to activate, but I think they're a brilliant way to tangibly show your progression. You get stronger not by just increasing your attack power, but by getting more friends to fight by your side. It plays into the game's themes of reconnecting and forming bonds really well. Plus, I just love the characters a lot lol
I just think it's lame AF that they are ghosts the whole time.
@@zidini Yea, I definitely agree with you there. The ghosts feel like an awkward workaround for having the sages not interact with each other until you have them all.
I do miss classic dungeons. But I will say the leadups to these new ones where a bit dungeon-y themselves, and I feel a lot of people overlook that
That is definitely a fair point. I guess the Zora Waterworks could be considered a part of the Water Temple experience.
You're able to have your opinion, but a lot of the lead up periods felt much more like world exploration to me. Waterworks felt like a cave, Fire Temple felt like just exploring the under zone, climbing to the airship just felt like a mini game of jumping, etc.
My view never saw them as dungeon feeling at all. Again, our opinions can be different and just as valid here.
I never saw the lead up as part of the dungeon or dungeony. The lead up is something that should be there regardless as part of a present story. But we got flashbacks/memories again instead of a real time active story and I think that’s where people get confused and link the lead up as part of the dungeon.
Dungeon doesn’t start until the screen name appears. Nintendo did us dirty and sold us short. The shortest and easiest “dungeons” in the series. Not to mention game mechanics made a lot of the dungeon design useless. IMO botw and totk has the worst dungeons in the franchise
At least we got some traditional bosses and themed areas tho.
@@ImOlCraig : My thoughts on this are that I appreciate the dungeon approaches being more dungeon-like and building tension, however, that also has the effect of making me kind of expect the dungeon to feel like a 'main course' to the pre-dungeon's appetizer, in much the same way the Ice Cavern and Bottom of the Well did for their proper dungeons.
I just don't care/don't like it. It's bad design.
This does get me thinking that there must be a huge demand for that classic Zelda dungeon experience right now. Surely developers must notice that as well, so maybe it's something we can look forward to on the Indie market.
I'm sure they will notice ^^. TotK was mostly "locked in" since it started as DLC for BotW. But I think the next game will be more free to go in any direction. BotW was a direct answer to Skyward Sword's extreme linearity, which many complained about back in the day. So they do listen to some degree. Eiji Aonuma himself started his Zelda career as a dungeon designer for OoT. Which were absolutely great for the time. I know he has the chops to do it again ^^
Developers notice what sells, and this is printing money. Expect a copy and paste for a while.
I think you're right, and with Ao Numa's announcement that they are basically moving on from ToTK without even DLC(which I was a bit disappointed by, I would love a Master Mode with even harder enemies) it makes sense. Personally I'd love a mixture of linear dungeons with more open ones
@@xuto2693😢 aw damn. this is painfully true.
@@xuto2693 What a fun way of saying you're not much into Nintendo development. No franchise of them is allowed to be repeated except for 2D Mario. If there's no gimmick/change in development, Shigeru Miyamoto literally won't greenlight a project. Innovation is key.
ToTK was DLC that got too heavy to be a DLC because they loved the community videos of people using physics to make machines and contraptions there. That's also why everything is more of an afterthought and the building is a core focus. The next Zelda will be open world, but there's zero evidence to point ot there'll be any copy and paste. Game design takes more thought than that.
I’m sorry- Did you say-… A year???? Already?! My brain has been thinking this whole time, “It’s only be a few months. It’s only been a few months. It’s only been a few-“
It's absolutely crazy! Feels like yesterday when I was still making prediction videos for it, haha
It has been 11 months. Which is still insane,mind you
The bosses were some of my favorites in the series.
Especially the Gibdo Queen and Colgera. Colgera was so easy, but unbelievably fun.
And the fact that you can refight them is something I genuinely love.
And Khoga was comical fun.
I feel like the Zelda team is still trying to figure out the right balance between open world and freedom.
Lightning Temple is my favourite as well and you can’t cheat it. You can Ascend to the boss room but Riju can’t do that. Sidon and Yunobo just pop up randomly wherever you land. It made sense for Tulin as he flies.
I generally liked all of TotK dungeons (including the Water Temple), but upon reflection they pale in comparison to dungeons from previous entries. However, the redeeming quality of TotK’s dungeons are the dynamic musical score as you continue to progress. That definitely has to stay
I think you hit the nail. BotW and TotK are a brand new direction for the series, so obviously they were never going to get everything single thing right. They will figure things out as they go. All we can do is to let them know what worked for us, and what didn't. They may listen to some of it, they may not. We'll see ^^
They're trying to have their cake and eat it too. They want unlimited freedom first and at all costs, and stripped away basically everything that makes Zelda Zelda to do it.
They want to make a different game but still have it be something it's not.
@@xuto2693 I agree that Zelda cannot thrive solely of limitless freedom and a "create your own adventure" style of design philosophy. That niche has already been filled by games like Minecraft.
That said, TotK did not win GotY, and it's sales have plateaud quite substancially. So Im sure some part of the team knows that the next game cannot do an exact repeat once again. I doubt the next game will take place in Hyrule even ^^
I honestly feel like all the ideas for TOTK are there, but the execution fell flat. Now I love this game, and I really enjoyed playing it, but I'm left wanting more. It's like we need a fan remake of TOTK. Keep the same general story but let the fans and theorists put their own spin on it. Fix dungeons and missing items. Like what happened to the divine beasts? Where's Kass? Rebuild castle town and expand settlements. I know Nintendo says they're done with this world of Hyrule, but if any Zelda game needs DLC, it's this one. The game left more questions than answers and I wish we could expand upon it. Like it would be so cool if the Zelda team brought in people like Monster Maze and Zeltik to give input on things. That's just my two cents though. Great video again. Always love your content.
Thanks a bunch for your input. May I also add: Where was my HOOKSHOT, Nintendo?! Gimme back mah hookshot!
@MonsterMaze right!!?? Heck, I'll put up a fight with ya to get that hookshot back!!
@@MonsterMazeultrahand would’ve been a PHENOMENAL way to create a hookshot
like with all the climbing and the wooden objects littered around the map, a hookshot would have made so much sense lmao
All sheikah tech was removed so it can't be abused by ganon like in the great calamity.
i think a compromise between open world design and scalling difficulty would be dungeons being unlocked in 'sets', you can do the forest, water and fire dungeons in any order you want, but you need to do all three before you can start on the lighting, earth and ice dungeons, and those three in any order before the spirit, shadow and light dungeons.
And yeah staggered progression items would be great to have back again rather than getting basically everything at the start.
Great take! Ordered, but also not ordered haha
Totally agreed! I had a similar thought when coming up with a Zelda fan game concept. You can do the first set in any order, but before going to the next set, you need to finish all of the first set.
My concept was basically:
- First three starter dungeons in any order (Weather Station, Crocodile Temple, Abandoned Oil Rig) - with the progression items you’ll need for the rest of the game found in them
- Next four in any order (Space Shuttle Factory, Goron Mining Facility, the Observatory, Hyrule Castle) - maybe they’ll have progression items, maybe they won’t (still thinking) but basically they’re the next set of dungeons after the first
- Final dungeon leading to the big bad boss (Hyrule Space Station) which is a culmination of all the skills you have learned by clearing the previous 7 dungeons.
- There’s also two mini dungeons (Sacred Grove and Hyrule Clock Tower) that players can play in the second set that are more puzzle based than normal (i.e: more focus on puzzles, few enemies, no bosses) that I kinda want to be optional but highly recommended - like players will be guided towards them but they don’t necessarily need to do them if they’re on a time crunch but they’ll miss out on perks that will help their gameplay and lore if they’re interested. Kinda like the colour dungeon in Link’s Awakening but I want the feel to be more like Eventide Island (which is also based on Link’s Awakening funnily enough).
(And if you can’t tell, this hypothetical Zelda game has a little bit of a space theme. It will probably never happen but I want a little space in my fantasy)
Yeah, I dig this idea the most out of ways to move forward with choosing our order for dungeons. Something that I kinda think could be a good example is, oddly enough, older Pokemon games. Sometimes there is a cave that you can't move past until you have Strength to push boulders, but even once you get it and come back you discover that there is a Waterfall deeper in the cave that you also need that move/badge to traverse before you can clear the cave.
Lets say we have 9 dungeons before the final one, a set of 3 and a set of 6. One of the first three gives Link a Grappling Hook, which can be used to hook onto branches, poles, stalactites, etc. and swing across gaps. A different dungeon gives Link a Titan's Mitt for lifting boulders. Maybe one of the set of 6 just needs the Grappling Hook to get there, and another just needs the Titan's Mitt, but a third one requires BOTH. And then, presumably the other three dungeons would need the Hook and something else, the Mitt and something else, and finally just the third thing of those initial dungeon items.
Or, alternatively, with a set of 6 or 9, you could make them sequential in their own way. The Fire Temple gives you the item to go do the Earth Temple right away, or you could go do the Water or Forest Temples. You go do the Water Temple and then the Ice Temple, and now you're choosing between Forest, Earth, or Light. That kinda thing.
This is basically Link Between Worlds.
@@MonsterMaze i think dungeon items in future open world zeldas don't need to be so much about giving you totally new capabilites so much as giving you new ways to make it easier to do what you're already doing, revali's gale and the zora armour, possibly the two most significant gameplay-experience changing abilities in breath don't really let you do anything NEW-new, gain height quickly by air or water, swim faster and a minor attack while swimming, but they feel meaningful as a significant leap compared to your previous capabilities.
you could've started breath perfectly well with no runes and instead had each divine beast give you one after beating it (or better yet get it at the start of each beast)alongside the champions abilities and they would've felt like so much more of a boon and increase in power, but because you get them all in the first hours you just mentally assign them as part of your standard abilities.
tangentially what's your opinion on reintroducing magic as a mechanic? as a non-regenerating resource alongside stamina, used to power stronger abilities and your 'dungeon items', existing next to stamina which itself serves as a more easy-come easy-go resource for measuring out your weaker capacities.
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One of Zelda's major factors is it's "wow factor". The fact that so many of TotK's dungeons had 0 wow factor is extremely frustrating. You said it yourself, you didn't even realise the Zonai Factory was a Dungeon.
Thinking back to Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, Wind Waker and Twilight Princess, almost every time I walked into a dungeon or saw it from the outside, I'd be amazed by where I'd just gotten to. Only the Wind and Lightning Temples in TotK achieved the same thing for me and it's ultimately disappointing. Hell, even in cases where I'd get somewhere in TotK and be wow'd, there'd be almost no substance behind what was actually on show.
(Prime example of that being most of the Sky Islands. With how hyped they were, I expected there to be so much cool stuff up there, but instead, apart from the Great Sky Island being a fun introduction, they're just a bunch of haphazardly floating rocks with a handful of reused puzzles.)
Nintendo really needs to work on their set pieces going forward. Like, it's like they've lost that 'showmanship' that their old titles had.
I heard that there were supposed to be more sky islands but they cut them out. First thing I thought was more?! The ones that are there are basically worthless minus a select few. Quantity does not equal quality. I wish they understood that
@@darknesswave100they definitely used to understand that til the new games. Even BOTW suffered from a little too much quantity over quality and i was so saddened to see TOTK being 3x the size and not offering much more quality. I won’t care if the next game is half the size of BOTW, I’m just hoping it’s deeper. I felt like I spent $70 on filler content like TOTK honestly should not be $10 more just bc it’s “bigger”. super sad they just seem lost in their priorities
You took the words right out of my mouth. I feel you exactly on that. These temples feel like they simply "exist" in the world. I miss when I felt like I was actually making an impact by exploring these temples. Like these are actual important areas instead of just the mile-wide inch-deep pool they are in TotK.
Bring in some constraints. Items needed. Areas that can't be reached. No unlimited climbing. No unlimited flying. have dungeons on different maps (just like the shrines) or exist throughout maps.
For me personally, I don't mind ultimate freedom, I'd prefer soft locks over hard locks. But it should be way harder to go anywhere and do anything. Once you get enough stamina or battery power, you can pretty much cheese anything with little effort. It's simply too easy. The great plateau and the great sky island were fantastic because you were limited in your abilities, but never fully constrained. If you could figure out a way ahead, the game wouldn't stop you.
Mid to late game however, the games do little to absolutely nothing to stop you from powering through it all, be it combat or puzzles, and that goes double for TOTK
Basically, I don't want Zelda to go back to hard locking you out of areas. I just want going through them out of order should be much more cumbersome (and more rewarding). I actually think BOTW did a half decent job at that with things like the zora armour, climbing gear, lighting helm, snow/sand boots, the rune upgrades etc. I just think they should be more region and dungeon specific. I think soft locks would make it all more dynamic and immersive
@@viktorthevictor6240 they should definately play with the dynamics of soft and hard locks, to create dramatic tension and increase the stakes
I agree with half of this
@@viktorthevictor6240Doing soft locks but leaving it technically doable, but very hard, is always a good option. Having essentially an optional hard mode baked in always scratches an itch.
16:44 nothing about TotK disappointed me more than discovering the Zora Waterworks, deciding to save this clearly awesome cave biome dungeon for later, and then later realizing that it was just a minor step to reach a much worse dungeon setting.
But you could only discover it as part of the story, and you couldn't get to the 'much worse' dungeon without finishing it. that makes no sense.
Also I didn't mind the water temple, it was unique. and I wanted at least one sky dungeon. Low gravity feels like water, the water balls were a neat idea.. it was just a very sluggish, irritating dungeon, but its small size sorta helps with that.
For a good dungeon, there has to be a feeling like “this place is out of control, but I’m going in anyway” the shrines always feel like a safe place to escape the outer world. The divine beasts are enemy-less mostly, and Totk feels like you’re in charge, and you’re OP in comparison to the enemies and bosses.
It’s been almost a YEAR? I haven’t even finished yet
Ooh the final boss is my favourite of the series. I think you will enjoy it
@@higurashikai09that's probably the only reason I'll remember the game
Actually, i realized that i really like the TotK dungeons IF i give myself some rules...
1. No Zonai Capsules, only use crafting materials procured on site.
2. No climbing on surfaces not meant for it.
3. No use of powers in non-intended ways (No stacking up crap to get high enough to ascend through a ceiling)
It's like you said, the main issue with those dungeons is about too much freedom. If you let someone free to do anything, they'll most likely go in a straight line and miss everything else, because we tend to look for the "path of least resistence" to reach a given goal. That POLR, in TotK and BotW is more often than not, "brute forcing through crap to bypass puzzles"...
Sure, there's the "Haha i fooled the dev", feeling, but that grows old fast... i mean, you can use a pair of pliers to force open a metal puzzle, but it will never be as satisfying as solving it properly, by understanding how it really works.
Exactly. They weren’t that badly designed at all. They just really believed in freedom or were scared people would get bored if they didn’t have it. Or a combination. Either way they are capable of making cool dungeons still, it’s just easy to forget that when a lot of people remember them being lackluster because they skipped a lot of it.
Self-imposed rules can work wonders sometimes ^^
I usually don't do it on my first playthrough, but I do subsequent ones. I actually beat Gohma without using yunobo while capturing footage for this video, and it made the fight waaay more intense! Much better than simply blasting away it's legs over and over, and watching it tip over helplessly, haha.
Yeah, but the fact that you need to do a Nuzlocke to make the dungeons interesting is fairly disappointing.
Yeah, as soon as I realized how easy it was to cheese the game I immediately gave myself some constraints. Part of the fun is the challenge.
That's great, but it's not addressing the design issue. As a game designer, you want the challenges you present to the player to have clear and enforceable rules. Many players will not self-enforce their own rules because it's an expected cornerstone of gaming to prevent cheating, for lack of a better word.
the scale issue for dungeons seamless with an open world can be fixed if they're underground, with pretty much unlimited space. Zora waterworks was underground and just making more hallways and large cave rooms would've achieved that. Maybe the water temple went to the sky instead of being in caves because the developers wanted dungeons to be seamlessly accessible with the world? the waterworks had that whirpool you had to enter first, with a small black screen
Honestly, could be in the overworld or sky, too--just requires some creative thinking. If you want to work with open spaces, that could also work in a game like Breath or Tears, but you'd have to disable some of Link's abilities or Zonai constructs within certain bounds or so.
Its very simple. Just make dungeons how they used to be by restricting movement. If you cant climb the walls in shrines, do the same for dungeons.
It is a bit odd how they did place these restrictions on shrines, but not the main story dungeons. Even Autobuild is inaccessable inside shrines...
fire dungeon was insane how much you could cheese it lmao it was so disappointing the first time i did it, i had to force myself to play it properly the second time around and it was definitely more fun lol
@@highdefinition450same to me it’s the best dungeon if you don’t cheese it
@@MonsterMaze a thought on dungeons add the stray fairy mechanic from majoras mask to these open air dungeons that way you have reason to explore more of the dungeon and do more puzzles
I get this idea, but I personally disagree in the context of TOTK's dungeons. I don't think it's a terrible idea for Link to remain as mobile as he is. The flaw in TOTK's dungeons (specifically Fire and Water Temples, but mostly the former IMO) is that Yunobo and Sidon can follow you anywhere even if it doesn't make sense for them to do so. CaptBurgerson proposed this fix in his Fire Temple critique. Instead of stripping Link from his mobility, they should limit that of the sage in question, so that you can scout the dungeon and plan ahead, but still need to interact with the dungeon's intended puzzles.
And funnily enough, TOTK itself does this in the Lightning Temple. Riju cannot follow you unless she has a clear path she can take. That's partly why the Lightning Temple is easily the best one IMO. And the Fire Temple would greatly benefit from this. I personally had a blast playing through it the intended way. Yunobo would need to have a path available for him to follow you, or he'd also need to ride the minecarts. I believe that this idea would keep in check so much of the Fire Temple's infamous cheese factor. As for the Water Temple, while this fix could somewhat help it, yeah. It'd still be underwhelming, and it would be better if we made the Ancient Zora Waterworks the actual Water Temple.
Just my two cents, though.
I do not remember what I read it from, but before Breath of the Wild came out, I remember seeing something about how the dungeons were going to be a part of the world. Something like the whole Lost Woods was going to be a dungeon, and I immediately thought of how that might mean you would need to unlock parts of the Lost Woods, going through some trees, clearings, etc with a variety of puzzles, mobs and bosses to defeat, before finally clearing it.
It feels like BotW's lost woods really was meant to be more than it was.
Also yeah I remember even before Skyward Sword, they were saying dungeons would be less discrete now, less obviously-a-dungeon, and it's true. several of the dungeons were 'just traverse the area, and solve puzzles' which would be okay if those areas weren't so empty and often rehashed. I mean I like that they did all that, but it's anotehr thing where "please do that AND give us real dungeons"
While I don't mind early dungeons being fine to be open to do in any order, I really like having them culminate in something that is designed with the pervious dungeon/exploration items in mind. I don't like getting everything all at once as it is kinda just "Oh well, I'm not really getting anything new, I got all my exploration power right now."
Limitations drive design, and most of my favorite games are shaped by limitations, and BotW and TotK are so free of limitation that they get pretty boring pretty easy.
I have a lot more I could say, but that would end up getting out of the dungeon design and more into core issues with the games that I don't care for.
A new Monster Maze video? It has PARTS?!
This is the best day ever, omg.
My Top 10 Zelda Dungeons: 🛡️⚔️
#10 Tower of the Gods(WW)
#9 Shadow Temple(OoT)
#8 Goron Mines(TP)
#7 Stone Tower(MM)
#6 Spirit Temple(OoT)
#5 Ancient Cistern(SS)
#4 Arbiter’s Grounds(TP)
#3 Sandship(SS)
#2 Snowpeak Ruins(TP)
#1 Forest Temple(OoT)
Killer list!
I think the old monster mazes Zelda gave us challenged my memory in a way that was not only rewarding from a gameplay perspective, but was useful to me in real life. I have a terrible memory because of ADHD, but playing a game that forced me to figure out a way to remember things like where would I be able to use the dungeon item helped me have a better memory in regular day to day life. I don't know, but I think it was a useful tool for me growing up with undiagnosed ADHD.
You know what I miss most about the old zelda titles........ the way it brings out the child in you and then forces you to grow up. I felt None of that with the two latest entries of the series. 😔
I think what makes me really love Hyrule Castle in BotW is that, while it is open for you to attack from any angle, your tools are a lot more limited in their power. Sure, you can scale the walls or use the tornado to get a good glide, but that doesn't solve the Guardians patrolling the exterior, so you had to plan a path up. Or you could slip into the docks with Cryo and fight your way through the castle. And I think it's really the weaker tools that make it such a fun nut to crack, because if you put it in TotK, it'd just be a speedbump. For me at least, it was a very good mix of multiple solutions and restrictive challenges.
On the point of progression items just being 'skeleton keys for places you couldn't access'
Sometimes it was more complex like that
For instance in the Arbiter's grounds there are two circular rooms which have access to their doorways controlled by a rotating mechanism
If you open access to a doorway in the room above, then it block your only way in from a different doorway
However if you remember that the top room had an indent on the ground and look up from the lower floor, you'll realise you can now clawshot up to the upper room
So it's not just a key, it's a puzzle solving tool too
Oh yeah, "skeleton key" is definitely a bit of an oversimplicication in some cases ^^. It varies per item and dungeon, but progression-wise it is kinda how they work in a way. But there are definitely other factors to it as well. Such as the potential platforming or traversal that comes with the more mobility-based dungeon items, etc.
I think it would be interesting if the next zelda game is about restricting freedoms. Give us an insane collection of ultrahand-tier game breaking abilities and restrict the loadout in a dungeon to only one of those abilities, for instance.
Maybe you have a limit on how many abilities/items that bring with you. Like you have to trade ultra hand for ascend. Then the ability can only be used as an item in certain sections
For dungeons, and Zelda in general, I think it’s worth remembering that limitations breed creativity.
As much as I’ve loved BOTW and TOTK, their openness takes away a lot of what is fun about classic Zelda games to me.
For example, I also didn’t realise that the Spirit Temple was a dungeon…because I randomly stumbled on it when exploring. The rest of the game was so open that I did that before finishing all the other dungeons, and had no idea it was even linked to the ring ruins in Kakariko.
And that sucked! I was really interested in the Ring Ruins, being one of the few places you flat out couldn’t enter whenever you wanted. Then when I got the answer, turns out it was the underwhelming thing I’d done tens of hours ago.
I think future games could do with cutting down in the openness a little - I think A Link Between Worlds got the balance perfect where it was open for exploration at will, but that didn’t mean you could just walk into anywhere at any time and still needed to figure out how you would get there
I definitely share your perspective, but with me it's story instead of dungeons. At this point, I've come to accept that every game is going to give me the hints of something emotional and deep - then keep the kid gloves on and focus more on Link just being an adventure goblin who only gets excited about food. Some of the things that happened in Breath of the Wild's or Tears of the Kingdom's "past" really hit me. TotK made me cry - actually cry - during the cutscene where Zelda swallows the stone. And, I was kinda shocked that they actually show (slightly off-screen) Ganondorf murdering a woman.
But, I always just want more. I want to know more about Ganondorf as the gerudo leader. I want Link to look like he cares about... anything. Yet, I've kind of made peace with the idea we're just not going to get that. These games still get my creative mind going, and I'll keep eating up the theory / lore content creators like you put out... And writing fan fiction. If they won't give me what I want, I'll write it! ;)
current nintendo is allergic to story or any characterization for the main guy (so you can insert!! which isn't stupid at all!)
give it some time, after miyamoto dies or retires (again) maybe we'll start seeing good story games again.
@@KairuHakubi They are definitely gameplay-first, story as an afterthought. Obviously they are doing something right to keep us invested and WANTING to know more, otherwise we wouldn't care enough to complain about it. We'll see what the future holds. As Don said, we can't really predict Nintendo all that well.
I hated how in TotK each temple ended with the exact same cutscene except it's a different sage. That's one of the reasons I want linear dungeons, so that cutscenes can do a better job unfolding a deeper story.
@@davidripplinger8904 yeah i miss linear story.. I feel like devs really messed up. they saw that people naturally try to push up against the limits of the intended order, and said "oh let's just let them do that, then!"
We didn't want to do it easily, we wanted to TRY.
@@davidripplinger8904 THAT whole thing was just lazy. Anyone whose ever played a modern RPG like Dragon Age or Baldur's Gate 3 has seen cutscenes change drastically depending on prior decisions or where you are in the story. Yes, it's extra work, but Nintendo has the money and the manpower to check some flags and record some alternative voice lines. Yes, the ancient sage was also explaining it to Link's companion, who hadn't heard the story yet, but there had to be a more inspired way to handle that. I think it just comes down to Nintendo not having a lot of experience with open-world storytelling. There were a lot of weird little things that have been handled more gracefully by far older games.
I always love your videos on dungeon design so glad to see another one! And a part 1 at that which means there’s more to come!
You had me at “dungeons”
My favorite thing about dungeon specific items was how they opened up the over world (the hookshot is the main one that comes to mind). It was a way of giving the player an exceptional sense of progression and satisfaction, and it made backtracking to previously unreachable locations that you had passed by earlier on a really exciting experience, but I'm not sure this concept would work with open world games in the same way. Maybe you could combine both types of games and have several smaller but substantial "open worlds", some of which are only accessible after you've gotten a certain item? But that sort of defeats the whole idea of completing the game in any order you'd like. I don't know
I think the biggest thing this video has shown me is how different other peoples' experiences with totk have been from my own. I went into the game roleplaying it, fast traveling as little as possible and going to the next place that felt like link would be driven to go. I usually only had a few zonai devices at a time that I had to use sparingly, and so I could barely cheese anything, instead having to resort to building machines only when traditional problem solving wasn't cutting it. I don't think I unlocked autobuild until I had two dungeons under my belt, and I was taking my time and exploring each area as I approached its dungeon, trying to savor my time with the game.
I had a fantastic time. TOTK might be my #1 game of all time. I was consistently amazed how the most effective solution to a problem was so often also the most thematic way to approach the problem while also being an incredibly fun solution. The whole game felt to me like an absolute masterclass in design. I had a great time with all the dungeons, most especially the desert temple and the spirit temple. Once I'd gotten through most of the main storyline I finally started getting enough resources to cheese things a little bit, finally figuring out how to make a hoverbike between finishing the last dungeon and going to Hyrule castle. I've been really surprised every time I've heard someone call totk "disappointing," because I've never had a better time with a game. However, I'm starting to see how figuring out cheesy builds and loading up on resources right away could make the game a lot easier and less satisfying to complete.
It probably won't be the same as discovering the game for the first time, but I'd recommend to anyone to try to play the game just making due with the resources you forage on the way, and cutting out a few of your easiest or cheapest builds. I understand the argument that giving the player too many options to make any of the challenges difficult is bad game design, and the only reason I didn't experience that is because I just wasn't smart enough to exploit what I'd been given, but I still think the game is so good when you're playing it with more restrictions that it's worth looking past the design flaws and trying to engage with it on that level anyway. Being a dumber player really did make this the best game I've ever played in my life. I hope everyone else gets to experience it like that somehow.
For me, my disappointment wasn't so much about the ability to build anything and cheese the temples. I also had a limited supply of zonai capsules, and it indeed enhanced my experience. Here's what I didn't like:
1. There's very little going on in the sky or the depths. They're just vast, bland landscapes.
2. The story was shallow, and the sages never lived up to the hype of being essential in the fight against Ganondorf.
3. The dungeons were mostly just divine beasts again. "Go to these 5 spots and activate them. Also, no enemies."
4. And just like in BotW, there was no notion of unlocking new areas or gradually getting essential abilities.
All that said, I still enjoyed playing through the game. I just won't play the next one if it's yet another BotW.
I thought it was a missed opportunity that the dungeons didn't have pieces of them on the surface that you recall back to the dungeon, in the sky and completing the structure.
That would have been goated.
Or sections where you need to go outside the dungeon to access areas you can't get to from inside. How'd they miss that? You can ascend from the underground seamlessly to the surface. They could have had dungeons large enough to spread across all 3 layers. I'd love a big tower on the surface that you can find easily but can't get into by any means until you find a path into its lower floors from underground.
@theoaremevano3227 they did that a couple of times with the giant maze things where you'd have to go into the depths to unlock something on the surface. That concept was cool and it made the depths not feel like some gigantic waste of space like 95% of it is
@@darknesswave100 : Yeah, it's a shame that's the only thing they really did to mess with the idea, and that the underground mazes were so short. (They were very creepy, so it would've been great to have to spend more time in them.)
This might sound a bit sacrilegious, but I feel Zelda could take a page out of Elden Ring for it's dungeons. Throughout Elden Ring, you'll find numerous fortresses, hidden catacombs, mansions etc that you can explore. They have branching paths, many of which need opening, unique weapons/items/pick ups, exclusive bosses etc. They have their own lore and surprises, and they're integrated into the world. You are not bound to complete them in one sitting, hell you are not compelled to explore every facet of the area. But there's plenty of rewards to be found in each.
As for the other concerns: Narrative I feel has been done well with the likes of ALBW, where you have a group of dungeons you can explore in any order, then a special narrative event, then more dungeons in any order, then another event. Hell, ToTK does this with the four regions before Hyrule Castle. Keep doing that. We don't need hours upon hours of story, but having those little in between bits helps thread them together without bogging it down too much. Some dungeons could be explored early, but parts can be locked off for some reason until its time, not every square inch needs to be available from start. Also, not all dungeons need to be compulsory, some could be fun side stories, making finding them even more fun. Tie them to an optional side quest (Something the new zeldas desperately need more of), make it a fun side story within the main one.
As for space, again if we have more massive temples and forts, that'll help. But another thing we can use from Elden Ring is the use of other planes. Have dungeons start in a simple temple that takes you to another dimension, suddenly real world space isn't a problem. Give us starry undergrounds or trippy mirror worlds. Something so crazy it can only happen in fantasy. Again, Elden ring has some really interesting underground areas that may stretch the believability of physics, but they're so out there and interesting and I feel Zelda needs more of that.
as for items, again, not every one should need an item to beat, what you could do is have a "core" part of the dungeon that can be completed whenever to facilitate the freedom, but optional parts require specific items and will house unique rewards and unique enemy encounters as a reward.
Which brings me to my other major gripe. More enemies, more DUNGEON specific enemies. Sub bosses, optional bosses, the enemy encounters as of now are just more of the same thigns we fight in the overworld, it diminishes the uniqueness of the dungeon.
I feel these ideas touch on the elements we loved from the old dungeons while also workign with the new freedom of the new era.
Amen brother!
I'm hoping for dungeons to be more area/ environment based (water temple is actually underwater and not high in the sky) with enemies of that area (dodongos in Death Mountain/ Fire Temple). Of the dungeons in TotK the Lightning Temple and BotW Hyrule Castle layouts is the style I liked the most of recent entries. Shrines can be greatly reduced and used for training if needed.
the old water treatment plant or whatever in totk would have made a great water temple imo lol, much better than whatever tf we actually got lmao
@@highdefinition450 The water temple was the 1st temple I explored and my expectations after that was set low. Sadly the Fire Temple was worse imo.
Oh boy do i have zelda games to recommend to you if you haven't played them.
@@dave9515if he is talking about dodongos in death mountain, why would you think he hasn't played them? 😂
I've just never understood why they didn't basically do a fusion of concepts in the game. Sure have your open world and let people go wherever they want. Thats fine and honestly it's a great thing to have in the game. However, why not have the "legacy dungeons" in the game also? I get that they'd have to put them into the world itself to make them fit like say the fire temple in ocarina of time being inside death mountain but it would be worth it to have full on dungeons in the game. Dungeon map, compass boss key the works. They could have done so much in tears of the kingdom but instead we get the travesty that is the water temple where, and I can't believe I'm saying this out loud, you have to turn faucets on. Oh and it's in the sky. That's so dumb. You can have the shrines and all that but also put actual dungeons into the game. Tears would have been the perfect excuse seeing as how the Upheavel literally changed how parts of the land of hyrule look because of the holes and all that opening up. Plus honestly the sky islands for the most part were a waste of time. Tears tried to do too much in terms of quantity and they missed out on quality. I just hope the next game and the series going forward has more quality and less quantity. There's a reason OoT and a few other games in the series are so good yet they don't have the absurd amount of what I'd call fluff in the world like the Wild games do. I'd agree with what Zeltik said when he described tears as the most disappointing masterpiece. There are so many parts of the game that were brilliant and yet there are just as many flat out disappointing aspects in the game. It's a really confusing feeling to have
I quite enjoyed the Water Temple, but despised the Fire Temple. There was zero indication of where I needed to go and was the only dungeon I cheesed through out of sheer not-caring about it. I at least tried with the others to do what was designed, but the carts and tracks were so frustrating I could not be bothered in the least.
I was actually wandering through the comments to see if anyone else had enjoyed the water temple & just didn't like the fire temple 😂 glad to see i'm not the only one
Couldn't agree more... I just launched, climbed, ascended, and soared over everything I physically could in the fire temple. I didn't even want to engage with the puzzles properly. At least the low gravity thing in the water temple was fun, and if I have to see another grey-blue claustrophobia trap as a water level in another game, I'm going to have to start designing games myself to get away from it.
@@YourWaywardDestinyYeah, but they are better structured than the TOTK water dungeon. They're much more complex and fun to complete. All the cool abilities such as the long shot, Zora Mask, Ice arrows, and hookshot really carry them.
@@YourWaywardDestiny Sounds like you should just start doing that anyway. If you make it big on Steam, you could force those corpos to see the light!
Even if that doesn't happen you can still work up your repertoire, and maybe you'll be just what an indie studio needs to hit a grand slam.
Just sat down with lunch, thanks for posting at the perfect time. Also great video (I haven’t even finished it yet but I know it’s going to be a good video).
Hope you have a great lunch!
This was the first video I have seen on your channel. This definitely deserves a SUBSCRIBED!
Absolutely fantastic video! I love the framing of your idea, your step by step approach to dungeons in TotK as well as Zelda as a whole. The script you came up with is phenomenal as well.
I think the biggest problem with BotW and TotK with their "open air" philosophy is that it flattens progression - you have an initial phase where you unlock the core abilities (in an order of your choice) then you have maybe a hundred hours where you get incremental or temporary improvements, but no real new capabilities - you get more hearts, more stamina wheels, bigger inventories, more batteries, pick up more ingredients and components, but (with a very few exceptions if you take it entirely literally) you can't go anywhere you couldn't go before, and no new doors unlock to you. You might temporarily get a stronger weapon, but that goes away when you use it (except the Master Sword). Sages/Champions give you their powers, but they make doing things you could already do anyway easier to do (with the possible exception of Revali's Gale).
And the flip side of that is that it sharply limits what you can offer as rewards - a sage power, a bit of story, a heart/stamina piece, or a piece of armour. And you can't have anything that requires one of those new capabilities in order to allow you to progress, outside of very limited circumstances - one of the improvements in the TotK dungeons is that you do get the sage powers before you start the dungeon, so they can at least design the dungeon around you having them (even if they're only actually needed for the terminals). Link Between Worlds at least required you to have a specific item for each dungeon (as well as their feeding overworld progress) even without an imposed order to them.
A big part of the secret to the appeal of Metroidvanias, which was shared with pre-Switch Zelda, is that they present you with a world which is theoretically accessible from the start, if only you had the right abilities - so you explore to get the abilities which allow you to reach new locks which require new abilities which you explore in order to find, etc. Without those barriers, a lot of the appeal of exploration is lost because it's no longer extrinsically rewarding to explore.
I think keeping the main world similar to botw but having encapsulated dungeons like classic Zelda is the way to go. Plus having small mini dungeons hidden through out the map that aren’t necessary to complete the game but give cool loot or armor would be dope. Not like shrines but fully fleshed out and unique locations
Considering they tried to do fanservice in TotK with the so called anchient hero (I wanted actually an Anchient Barbarian Link and not a Furry "Zonai" Link), I guess they Eventually also do some biddings from the fans
I got to the final boss in Breath of the Wild on accident. I went to get the memory on the bridge. After that, I was trying to get to the top of the castle to Revali's Gale out of the castle. I accidentally walked into Ganon's sanctum not knowing I was walking into an end game trigger. I ended up beating the game and that killed my motivation to complete the rest of it. Ironically, I had a hard time with Beast Ganon because I never got a horse and the game just gives you on if you didn't have one registered. I struggled with Beast Ganon because I had a hard time controlling the horse that kind of did it's own thing and kept running into Beast Ganon's legs.
I feel like a hybrid of the two things is best. Go the route of OoT where maybe in the early half of the game, we get that open and integrated “dungeon” style (the equivalent of Young Link’s portion), and then in the latter half, build those more intricate dungeons that don’t integrate so much with the open world, whether due to being underground or through some magical reason why they can have the size they do.
I was BEYOND disappointed thst the floating castle in the sky only had a few fans, a few chests, an armor piece, and a shrine.
I was really expecting a prolonged combat section
While I liked the last two games I would also love to see a linear dark story like Twilight Princess again. Or a vehicle based toon link game like Spirit Tracks. I hope they will make both types of games and just switch it up sometime. Like they’re doing with the baseline Pokemon games and the new “Legends” alternative games.
YAS! Environmental story telling is the best! Twilight Princess was the BEST at it. 🤩 28:32
Twilight Princess 🔛🔝
I kind of want to see an RTS-like Zelda game. Where instead of the focus of the game is strictly using Link to beat all the enemies, clear all the content then face ganon to win, what about a game where your adventures into the world serve to build up your defenses and build up your armies, getting their numbers up, and getting them better gear, to then have them face off against Ganon's armies. Imagine the central town in TotK, where you have to do quests and collect resources to better build up the town's defenses to survive the final battle, that you can go out and acquire better weapons and armor for the various "Monster Hunter Squads" which leads to them being able to subjugate and clear more of the map and beat stronger enemies without you.
Or... a role switch game, where Zelda is the Protagonist, who focuses less on weapons and melee combat, is more about using various magic and spells. Like, Ganon realizes that the one who keeps stopping his victories isn't Zelda, but Link. So he captures Link before he can become a total badass and get his hands on the Master Sword, so now Zelda has to do the hero work for a change.
I'm not saying they need to return to the fully linear structure of say Skyward Sword. But, there needs to be something other than exploring a huge world looking for korok seeds. Yes, it was fun to explore a huge open Hyrule a couple of times. But if they do that same structure again, well that's already worn out. The next Zelda needs to do something dramatically different. And traditional dungeons need to return. TOTK took some steps toward that, but not enough.
These types of comments are very helpfull. This video series will conclude with the open world as a whole, and the general design philosophy that is currently in place. Seeing what people liked and didn't like about that helps to widen my perspective.
I personally think making dungeons in a separate space. I would rather have dungeons have more complexity and unique layout design rather than being immersive by being connected to the hub world. If they can do it with shrines why not large scale dungeons?
A fair take! I personally don't mind a loading screen once in a while, as long as it doesn't become excessive. I think even TotK uses them on accassion. When you enter the Zora Waterworks or some of those Gerudo sand caves, the screen fades to black when you enter.
I’d honestly even argue, given all the magic and technology of Zelda, the whole “bigger on the inside” thing can/should be a mainstay of open-world style dungeons going forward.
Yes they could have easily had it be magical or sci fi in how you went into a bigger space. It could be a different place or time.
I like the dungeons being inside the overworld space. It doesn't mean they all have to be open-air, though. Shrines are meant to be artificial environments.
Excellent video my man - not a big Zelda player myself but have a lot of love for the community.
I always enjoy the discourse around the current state of the game and hope everyone gets what they want.
Great mindset to have! Discourse is a good thing in my book. It leads to change and innovation. Elden Ring did this very well by giving newcomers never before seen tools and strategies to deal with difficulty.
An idea to fix the issue of the dungeons being limited by being part of the overworld would be for a "shell" of the dungeon taking up as much physical space in the overworld as you would logically expect them to, but the dungeons themselves being on their own maps. A few places where certain parts of the dungeon are knitted to the corresponding shell in the overworld would be cool, with anything that might change the exterior of the dungeon would trigger the corresponding change in the shell.
Unfortunately, that would probably involve lots of loading screens in inconvenient and immersion-breaking spots. If dungeon progress could be saved at these points without the need for a temporary companion or having to re-traverse already finished areas with re-spawned enemies (or worse, lack of enemies), I'd be willing to put up with it. Maybe incorporate safe spaces in these knitted areas for players to regroup if desired, while working it into the dungeon proper by making a puzzle where a clue to solving it would be something in the safe space (not a key itself, but a clue that would point toward a solution).
Sure, loading screens are annoying, but if done right, they can be slightly less annoying lol.
Someday at Nintendo, the designers took a back seat and handed Hyrule to the engineers and said "do your thing, you guys can do whatever". And TotK is the end result.
Well okay, that's pushing it a bit far. But the game does feel a bit that way. Out with the poetry and elegance of minimalism, time to stuff that map with *systems* and *content*! I mean, that's fine. I just wish they'd use a different map and timeline.
Zelda devs literally had a talk in gdc which if you see will know how we'll crafted totk is
The simplest solution to the narrative problem would be to split the story into chapters with each chapter containing multiple challenges that can be completed in any order to advance to the next chapter.
or make it more like a pyramid so you have converging main quest lines that way you can make a lot of progress in an area and have a bit of freedom as to were you go to progress the story but also have it all lead up to the final battle
That's basically how things like the Divine Beasts worked in Breath of the Wild - step 1 is get the map, step 2 is activate five terminals, step 3 is reach the main control unit and fight the boss, but when you're on a step, you can do it however you want. You can fight the boss by using only bomb arrows, or you can fight it the "intended" way, by trying to dodge or counter its attacks. And of course, you can do the five terminals in absolutely any order.
Perfect close for the evening! Thanks! Great work, as always!!!
Wow Monster Maze, great video as always! It's so nice to finally see someone who shares a lot of my opinions on TOTK and BOTW (and unexpectedly Paper Mario XD), but still finds a way to bring out the best in them!
I'm excited to see the next videos in the series :D!
This felt more like a TOTK Dungeon Review than an exploration on the possibilities of dungeons in future games
Indeed. TotK has the latest iteration of Zelda dungeons. So it made sense to look at them ciritcally and address their strong and weak points. I've made plenty of videos on the old dungeon design, so I didn't want to tread old grounds in that regard.
This is how a true fan does a review and discussion. You lay out the strengths and weaknesses in a game and then offer constructive feedback on how developers can improve going forward.
They call him "the gatekeeper"
@Decapitationtrain How exactly? How is any of that considered gatekeeping? The real gatekeepers are the "fans" that don't care that Breath and Tears have brought in new players. They want "their" Zelda from "their" childhood. What I laid out in my comment was how real reviews are meant to work. You lay out both the good and the bad, give constructive feedback to help the developers, thus doing your part as a fan to make the games better in the future. Believe me, if there was nothing redeeming about Tears, I wouldn't be fighting so hard for it. I want to see the series grow and develop. I want more eyes on Zelda. I want more people playing these games. If all the developers hear is, "We didn't like this." Without any constructive feedback on how they can improve, they're likely to trash everything, both good and bad, and go in another direction instead of just polishing what they have.
I would love to see a dungeon that uses a linear style with some flavor. I imagine a space designed around teaching a mechanic that fits the local people, culture, or history. Creatures can be unique to the locality as well. It could use a limit to previous abilities r gear while giving access to a new ability or piece of gear.
Another one would be a dungeon that's already been "cleared" by someone else now filled with traps and more obtuse solutions from miving around keys and items. The final boss of this dungeon would be who or whatever beat us to the dungeon. It kind of goes along with an idea a friend of mine had about having a rival completing dungeons and quests as well.
Also, I accidentally did the stuff with the Factory and the Spirit Temple first as I was exploring, so I remember it fondly for feeling like a crazy boost I could use for the rest of the game.
With the dungeons being integrated into the world, that may be why we won't be seeing this Hyrule again. Next time could see a Hyule with more fluid mesh with the rest of the world.
Just finished eating, fck, I'll keep it for tomorrow night
I would love some old school dungeons. I liked TOTK but in the end I felt like the whole game until you get to the cinematic fight with ganon was nothing but filler... I miss the little lore bits we get with every dungeon or temple in older zelda games (even if they dont make much sense lol)
It only just now dawned on me that the Lightning Temple is one big reference to the Spirit Temple and Ikana Canyon/Stone Tower Temple. It's located in a desert, it's a culturally significant location to the people living there, and like its predecessors, it requires the use of mirrors to beat (in OOT and MM, the Mirror Shield is obtained in both of these locations, and in TotK, you use a ton of Zonai Mirrors).
I actually don’t connect the construct factory in my mind when thinking about the spirit temple. The thunderhead isle and the mech fight over to the dungeon I do. Probably just got distracted by something on the way to the thunderhead isles. But even without it I was only slightly let down by the spirit temple. I just really like how mineru’s mech changes up the gameplay, so I was happy with my new toy
I miss having quests that built up to dungeons. In ToTK if feels less like an adventure and more like A to B, no mystery or feeling like you actually found the place, there's so much hand holding
Majora's Mask had amazing dungeon buildups. The amount of stuff you needed to do before was stellar. Before you even access Stone Tower Temple you need to: Go to the Ikana region > visit the graveyard > learn the Song of Storms > bring back the waterflow to the main river > get the Gibdo Mask > go through the bottom of the Well > get the Mirror Shield > get the song from Castle Ikana > climb Stone Tower > enter Stone Tower Temple. I mean.... jeeeez
yea like the climb to the boat in totk is cool for sure but the way you actually get to that part is super boring lol, you just... walk over there lmao
@MonsterMaze i hated how long it was for the last 2 dungeons in mm because of the time limit lmao, like there's something super unsatisfying about doing all of that only to turn back time to have enough time for the actual dungeon imo lol
@@MonsterMaze Honestly, Stone Tower's build up is probably one of the best, I hope they find a way to bring that magic back for the next game
@@highdefinition450 That's valid, I remember playing it as a kid and the time limit stressed me out at that part
One of the main reasons for disappointment *ARE* the expectations. The way down to Ganondorf was underwhelming? 😎
Well... what if I say it was about everything I expected? And for my taste I find it lame when we cannot bypass the enemies we wanna bypass and are forced to fight them, cause two stupid doors have closed - one behind us and the other one in front of us - and both will only magically open again after we dispatches of these *EXTRAS* that we have seen about 3000 times before.
If it is at least a special opponent, or unique mechanics... than I can respect it. But otherwise? Naaaaah. Fastforward >> all the way.
Ironically I do not do that in Fromsoftware's many soulsgames. I try to kill every enemy at least once. For myself and the feeling that I have completed an environment.
But those goofy, cartoonish looking trashdemons of the Zelda Universe(?), nah they can eat my DUST and even the dust is still too good for them. Rch-pfüh! 😁
I am hot underway for Zelda and am gonna get dat booty! 😏👅
And yea the Dragon faceoff at the end was epic as hell.
Worthy of Ganondorf, who himself, was once more a pretty underwhelming Lord of Evil.
Maybe after getting used to soulsgames... I do not know why I expect Nintendo of all people 🤣to dish out something of reminiscent value.
Absolutely correct about the expectations.
I thought Tears of the Kingdom was awesome the whole way through and the descent was one of the coolest parts of the game.
People seemed to think the game was going to be their personal head canon or something.
It has it's issues, mainly story, like everything else in the world, but it was an incredible experience I won't soon forget.
Perhaps there needs to be more/better incentive to fight in Zelda in that case, other than a door closing in front and behind you. I also fight practically everything in Souls games, since it has RPG elements and the combat is invigorating. Enemies do drop certain materials for upgrades/weapons in BotW/TotK, but often times I still do not feel like wasting my weapons. The only games where I purposely avoid enemies are survival-horror games really 😅
@@BaldorfBreakdowns Yeah and even during BotW many people seemed to expect... I dunno "Ocarina of Time" all over again when it came to Dungeons for example.
There is only one thing in TotK that I find utterly lazy and unforgivably disappointing and that is -> the disappearance of the ancient Shieka-technology. 😑
Wether it be ruined Sentinels... the ancient Shieka towers and also the Shieka shrines.
Totally immersionbreaking for me!
How Nintendo just 'ignored' their existence is just beyond me.
Same with the missing Titan's which could have made for amazing landmarks.
All and everything gone, without at trace.
Not even giant holes in the ground where the Towers first emerged from.
How?
Why?
Impossible.
But barely anyone is speaking about that 😁 or has forgotten this pretty easily.
Probably because we realize this as apparent in the very early stages of TotK.
But that does not make it more gruesome.
The whole timeline became so dark *because* the more animalistic & emotional side of the calamity could take over all those _GUARDIANS_ which basically gave the Demonhordes, their own _"Ghost in the Shell"_ styled battletanks!
This was HORRIBLE!
I wanted to see the Shieka towers in either ruins, halfway dismantled, or weathered, inactive states.
Not GONE. 🤗
Really. Just as if Nintendo said
_" Yeah we don't want those anymore, their part is over. "_
Dudes.
Ehh, Demon dragon Ganon was pretty terrible. One of the worst I'd say, Dark beast ganon from botw was also pretty bad. Now the fight prior to Demon Dragon Ganondorf. That was the best part.
@@MonsterMaze True! And killing enemies in the soulsgames means sometimes they drop their respective item's like their weapons or armorsets.
While the Demons in TotK only drop materials we already have and the new weapons we can craft out of them, we would also kinda waste in the act of killing the current Demons.
Well, lorewise it makes sense to ignore them too since they seem to be linked to the Calamity anyway.
So by killing the scource, we kill every single Demon for about the next... 1000 years. 🥱😏
Technically passing by as many as possible is the truly effective method of killing them all in the long run.
No one seems to include labrynths as a mini dungeon. I rather enjoyed them. You got a shrine and it opened up more quests and opportunities for new armor. It also got you to explore the 4 corners of the maps.
They are good and add a decent amount to the game. They are a good example of how well TOTK was thought out imo. You could be anti them if someone wanted to point out they aren’t that complicated or like traditional dungeons. But they are still well done and cool how it made you explore the different levels and the reward was actually good. Unlike a lot of chest moments in both games.
The problem with the lightning temple for we was that I ascended straight to the boss room, which was empty, which was weird because going back 15 minutes later after activating the terminals she was there.
tbh im completely content with the dungeons in Totk because i take in the whole pre-dungeon segments into consideration, we also got a handful for of perfect caves and one optional “Dungeon” with A Call from the Depth quest in the Great Plateau, with enough mind gymnastics lolol
also i know they said they’re not doing dlc for totk but im manifesting a content update sometimes in the future, adding mastermode, crossover outfits, and a rogue-like mode
totk mechanics with a in a rogue-like mode would be so cool they already tested the waters with something kinda similar with the sword trials and the Cave layers thingy in Twilight Princess HD
pre-dungeon segments were also a thing in the past zelda games, it doesnt make TOTK dungeon's special. Plus, the pre-dungeon segment is nothing like a dungeon at all, most of it is just a linear path or gauntlet. It doesnt scratch the itch of a dungeon experience.
I hope for a blend between previous dungeons and the new. I like having a lot of freedom instead of a single solution. But I'm craving the return of dungeon specific items, specifically the hookshot.
Gimme mah hookshot!
I might not be saying anything that Nintendo hasn't tried already, but I think it would be a great exercise for the Zelda team to take 2 or 3 of the very best dungeons across the franchise and see how well they can reproduce that design within the TOTK engine. I'd imagine that it would expose issues and unlock great ideas. Like, how would Ocarina's forest temple operate? How would you outsmart the player mobility with all the tools available to them while still maybe giving the illusion of freedom? How would you lock off areas?
With all the player freedom in TOTK, I think we forget that TOTK does lock areas and restrict movement wherever developers felt like it. The engine doesn't make this impossible.
Only 3 minutes in.... I would really like to play Twilight princess and Wind Waker on the switch... With that said, I think they should definitely go to a more realistic look that uses more of the original dungeon design with some of the open world elements. A healthy mix
I think a lot of people are not realizing the TOTK dungeon formula. The actual dungeons is really part 2 of it the actual start of the quest with the lead up to the dungeon is a dungeon experience and quite amazing tweak to the original formula. In times past it has usually been in most cases the puzzle mechanics didn’t start until you literally entered the dungeon this game does a great job in blending it into the overworld. Then allowing the dungeon itself to be more the final act. Which is refreshing. Now I have been replaying a lot of older Zelda titles again and it is amazing to replay a more traditional dungeon. But I’m also 31. I can tell with my kids and the younger generation their having just as much as I did if not more and seeing them struggle and open up the guide book or beg to look up a walkthrough on CZcams has been funny and exciting to see with the new generation. I think a lot people don’t understand to is that most of us are veterans now and not much is really going to surprise or impress us to much anymore because we’re overly familiar and specialized in this field or genre of games. Not saying it’s impossible for us to have our socks blown off but it’s far less likely. I definitely think they’ll continue to perfect this new formula that will more then likely allow both new and old players to get some enjoyment out the series.
That is an interesting viewpoint indeed. Thank you for that. I never really considered the preceeding parts or "lead-up's" to be part of the dungeon itself. When I think: "dungeon", I don't think: "defending a town under siege alongside an army of warrior-woman", haha. I guess it kinda depends on your definition. I am very old-school when it comes to dungeons A dungeon for me is a self-contained area. A space that contrasts with the bright, open, and free nature of the rest of the overworld. I like that "it's go-time" moment when you first enter. But I understand your perspective. I am currently 36 and I am still as traditonal as I ever was when it comes to dungeons xD
I really like Totk . I just want there to be more of a balance between open world and the linear classic style of the past games. I think a good example of this would be Zelda indigo, it's such an fantastic oot romhack that blends both new and classic style perfectly and has the creativity to that of botw/totk and traditonal dungeons of classic Zelda.
That being said, I say this and the hope that the next Zelda will be something like that.
I need to play indigo sometime!
@@MonsterMaze Its not finished yet if you didn't know. They only have like 2 parts done iiirc as its gonna be the first major oot romhack that shakes up OOT in such massive ways.
@@MonsterMazeYou'll enjoy it MonsterMaze, a lot of effort was put into it. Definitely scratched the itch TOTK couldnt from story to dungeons, enemies, and items. And the best part is that its not even finished yet.
Gloom's Lair was really fun doing it as my first dungeon and no preparation at all, like, just after the tutorial.
(Spirit Temple was then the second dungeon (after "Hyrule Castle Depths") I did, because immediately after leaving Hyrule Castle's Depths, I looked and saw the thunderstorm and thought "I want to go there" and then discovered heart-gate (had to leave to get more hearts before returning and then learning this spooky ball wanted me to build her a robot body)
I think you've captured the sentiments perfectly, and well balanced too. Thanks for the great visuals showing various ways of approaching trials! There were a few in there that happily surprised me, cheers! 😁
So my worthless opinion on the state of Zelda:
I never even finished ToTK. I work a lot and have a young child, but I played it every night for months. I was totally enraptured in the mechanics. I made all the propeller driven, electric motor vehicles there were to make. I found all the light roots. I finished all the shrines. Then I started the story. And I beat my first temple, saw a cutscene. Beat the second, saw the same cutscene. And third and fourth. And trudged along with Mineru. All there was in the entire game (other than finding Koroks, I'm definitely not doing that) was beat Ganondorf. But I put the game down. Said I'd play it tomorrow. Month later, say I have to fire up the Switch tonight. Didn't happen. Then I realized that I really didn't care. I had no emotional investment into the story. Or what investment I did have was gone.
Still haven't beaten it. I really need to fire up the Switch tonight.
Honestly I feel the same in regards to both BOTW and TOTK. I bought BOTW about a year ago, have loved Zelda for years but I play the series for the story, dungeons and the boss fights. When I realized that nearly all of that isn't really there per say with these open-world Zeldas, my enthusiasm quickly evaporated. Its like it may look pretty and you can go anywhere but there's not really anything else besides that. What makes the Zelda games of the past so great, to me at least, just isn't here. Maybe I'll give BOTW the benefit of the doubt and try it again at some point but I think the next time I decide to play Zelda I'll probably play Ocarina or Twilight again.
Great Video.
My idea for the dungeon in the BOTW/TOTK formula : Mix Hyrule castle and trial of the sword.
Imagine.
Let's go back to BOTW Hyrule caste. You can explore freely everywhere and battle enemy and mini-boss (the dungeon is still part of the world map).
During exploration you find a "old map" in a treasure chest... weird...
Then somewhere (in a secret room behind the throne room / sanctum for exemple) you find a pedestal like the one of the master sword (like in WW). And when you put your sword in it, it's like the trials of the sword dlc or the Silent Realm in SS. You are naked, in a version of the castle not in ruin (not part of the world map, you are in a past verson or parallel version). And I mean no sheikah/arm rune neither.
Then the real dungeon begin !
If you have collected the "old map" then it can show you where are your power (like the compas of old but not showing which one is), if not you're blind.
Your goal is to take back your power and collect maybe a new one (during the dungeon or at the end).
This way you can have many puzzle and no chance to cheese them because you're overstuff
Of course you'll have to battle enemy and mini-boss (maybe a mini boss for each power), collect loot and maybe some piece of armor. And a big boss in the end as usual. But the fact that the castle is no longer in ruin can change many thing.
Oh... and in hero mode you'll lose your heart and stamina as well (you will found them in the différent treasur chest during your exploration 😈😈😈).
Imagine :
The secret room when you've find the pedestal become the entrance of the dungeon and when you come back to the new version of the throne room / sanctum you'll find... a Gleeok.. and you're still naked... you'll have to find a way out and explore the rest of the dungeon to come back and fight... or like calamity Ganon you use the weapon in the room to engage the fight.
You can still have multiple solution to a problem this way.
_ sorry for my poor english
That is a neat idea, and your english is just fine sir!
This is what happens when the DM lets green text shenanigans and rule of cool go too far. Rather than finding ways to prevent the shenanigans from invalidating the challenge in the game. Except in that case, maybe that’s what the table wants, but on a broad scale as with this game, people do generally want some challenge.
Ok but hear me out... We take "The Shadow of the Colosus" concept of all boss fights and turn it into "Zelda: Oops all Dungeons". We then give it a metroidvania vibe so that it has linear progression but is expansive enough not to feel linear. Maybe give it some points that are non-linear so we feel like we just stumbled into something good.... like a 3D Hollow Knight... might help with the environmental Lore concept.
I’m not gonna lie, I was hesitant to watch your video only because I’m so tired of the focus on the negative when it comes to TOTK. However, your channel has been my favourite for some time now for Zelda content and I have always appreciated your takes. This was no different. I respect your thoughts (though I didn’t agree with all of them) and appreciate that you could see the positives along with the shortcomings. More enemies and enemy variety in the dungeons would be my pick for improvement in the next game. Let’s hope the developers are taking notes from your video. 😊 Great content as always! Cheers.
That's okay! I don't expect anyone to agree with everything I say. In fact, I enjoy hearing other people's personal views. I've made my fair share of critical analysis videos about Zelda, both on the old and the new games. It's something I enjoy doing, because I love game design. And TotK will not be spared from my critical eye, haha. It's unfortunate that some may perceive my takes as trying capitalize on negativity due to current trends. I can assure people that I am not type to ride the bandwagon. I either like something, or I don't. I don't care what the main consensus or how popular my opinion is ^^
@@MonsterMaze Totally! I think it’s important to be critical but in a way that’s constructive, which is why I respect your content more. Maybe it’s that I’m an older fan but I can’t handle the immature hot takes haha! Anyway thanks for replying and keeping it real.
Do not know what you are talking about with the water temple, I consider it my favorite of the group, but I also have a burning hatred for evertide island and consider all the mini evertide shrines in TotK a glaring mistake, so clearly I'm from the mirror dimension.
Nah, you just enjoy different things than I do. Nothing wrong with that ^^
I felt the same way about the Water Temple in OoT. I loved it, but most people I knew hated it with a passion.
I'm actually kinda with you on some of that. I don't mind the water temple being skybound; it just needed more obstacles and more cool water enemies; maybe a bit more space to traverse too. With Eventide, I was super-interested for 5 seconds until I realized that all the stuff that had been taken couldn't be improvised, meaning I would just be 'handed' my supplies throughout the experience. :/
I wished you could make you own weapons and armors in that game so that you could have that experience of building yourself back up and picking your priorities from the resources available. TotK helped a bit by letting you make weapons, but you still couldn't make armor, so it wasn't quite there. (Also constructs are annoyingly moronic and overly persistent, making some of those shrines not work all that well.)
Central moving parts for a dungeon seem to work pretty consistently, regardless of which style of game the dungeon is in. Being able to activate a single function that affects many things in the dungeon can bring so much life to it. Starting a flow of some element or the movements of some machine shouldn't just affect one part of the dungeon you're currently working on, but many other areas too. It can create new doors, new pathways, new obstacles and even cause new enemies to become active.
I'd really like to see more dungeons use this idea, but focus more heavily on having the central function of the dungeon add just as many problems for Link as it solves, rather than having it just open up a bunch of doors and make getting around easier. If the player is given remote control of such a function (like with timeshift stones), then I'd love to see an enemy that's poses a considerable threat only when the dungeon is in one state, meaning the player must be cautious of when and where they shift to that state.
For example, maybe you need to get past a door, which could simply be opened in the 'live' state, but if you do, the primary threat would be right there on top of you, so you need to find another way, or potentially take the risk any time you choose to interact with the dungeon's 'live' state, meaning you'd better know what you're doing. Kinda reminds me of the Silent Realm guardians, or the Dahaka from Prince of Persia.
Looking forward to leaving an excessively long comment next time when we talk about combat. I've been thinking on that a lot lately. XD
Couple thoughts about the video:
1. I feel like if the engine is the major limitation of the game's dungeons, they'll either have to completely rewrite or ditch it. This is coming from a web developer - yes, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. But sometimes you're going to end up with less work when starting from scratch.
2. Yes, I agree on the companions. That seems, again, like a core-design problem. The idea of companionship was nice, but I feel like a more fleshed-out system would be nice for future entries. The problem is that you would end up with a lot (and I mean a LOT) of conditional button presses, which can easily confuse new players. My solution would've been another UI-Wheel like for the abilities, but then you have to ask yourself, how often would you use them in combat anyways?
3. You talked about difficulty scaling while discussing the linearity of past games. I think the scaling system implemented right now (while being very sophisticated) is another limit of BOTW's design that should/will be fixed in the next game. The problem is that currently, most enemies just become literal sponges and just deal more damage, they don't change into other enemies or get extra attacks or gimmicks. Of course, if there would be such a level of complexity for a scaling system, we'd need more enemies to play around with, which loops back to the idea of NPC differences etc. Let's hope the Zelda-Team switches it up for the next game and are able to come up with some creative new enemies, or maybe bring back some old ones.
4. Dungeon items are another interesting point. I think that, in an open world game, it would make sense to design temples/dungeons with those items in mind. Of course, they could not be used in other dungeons, but the overworld could be similar to a Metroidvania - certain spots could only become available with certain items. Actually, I should correct myself: it can be possible to utilize old dungeon-items in other dungeons as well. If the Zelda-Team is willing to introduce a certain level of linearity, similar to Mineru's Dungeon (except for the part where you ignore the thunderstorm), the last dungeon could maybe include all items.
5. On the part of environmental storytelling: Aonuma mentioned in an interview that the Zelda-Team did not have time to look at other games like Elden Ring. This would obviously change for the next Game, and I hope to see them take inspiration from Elden Ring and other games, not only Minecraft etc.
Using Zonai devices in dungeons is in the same category as using summons against bosses in Elden Ring. Both are viable strategies, but I’ll still judge you for using them
You DARE insult my ultimate pre-patch Mimic Tear strategy!?
I think I'm in the minority on this but I really enjoyed the dungeons in Tears of the Kingdom. They might be short experiences, but they provide some fun puzzles and fantastic set pieces. Sure, you can skip things, but with how intricately crafted and unique they are, I never had any motivation to ignore parts of them. Even the Water Temple, which is the shortest to complete, is very fun due to the low gravity, and I'm perfectly fine with a bite sized but enjoyable experience. I'd rather be left wanting more than relieved that something is over.
The amount of content in one burst is difficult to have both ways. I really want a game to have variety in how substantial each content bite is, so that I can expect to be surprised sometimes and find something truly remarkable, instead of realizing a couple hours in that everything I find will conform to a relatively small blueprint.
The only solution I can think of is maybe some way to make it super-easy to set stopping points in larger dungeons, like an even better form of Farore's Wind or something.
0:50 well that is.. that's the best kind of dog. You managed to acquire the #1 best dog type there is. Lucky.
If there's one thing I hope we keep from this era, it's the incredible lead-ups to each dungeon. Those were amazing, so much better than they were in BotW where all you did was gain access to someone who helps you subdue the beast.
27:30 I would not mind if they made Tiers of dungeons/encounters available to the players - akin to how the shadow temple unlocks after visiting Kakariko after, i dont recall which, dungeon - because it could be used in a way to enforce that the enemy is a living breathing force.
let's say in totk if the wind temple and death mountain were the first attacks from Ganons armies and the gibdo going after Gerudo town only happens after those two threats were taken care of, where you had gerudo town free and healthy if you go there before then it's under siege and then goes back to being free with some sidequests unlocked after.
THAT WAY - you could account for items/skills/sage abilities etc. being part of your arsenal going into another tier of content. however, the pre-conflict stage should have SOME of the sidequests able to be done so if you somewhere too early it's not a complete waste of time.
and lets say the phantom Ganon questline had to be resolved before you could even enter ganons final "castle" because phantom ganon would keep you out with magic akin to how lost forest turns you around...
The fundamental dungeon problem that needs solving is, besides the 'trials for a hero' natural explanation for the shrines lock+key designs, WHY (in story terms) would there be a logical sequence of locks and key preventing progression to the end of the dungeon (as well as the random puzzles lying around in each room and a boss randomly at the end of the logical sequence who requires the dungeon's random item to beat)? It makes no story sense at all but natural explanations is what modern Zeldas are going for. This problem needs solving above all.
Cause it's fun? Wtf
@@zidini in story terms. I hinted at that but perhaps didn’t make it clear enough
It sounds to me like you didn't like Tears of the Kingdom but try to convince yourself you did, or you don't want to be negative or something.
Like, sure you enjoyed some of it, but it sounds like it was an overall negative experience.
And yeah, it'd be great to have a bunch of these more traditional things or a big dungeon before Ganondorf, but did you see the rest of the game? Is it really not enough? They needed to do more? It's a "missed opportunity" not to have added more to this massive game?
Would it be fair if I say it was a "missed opportunity" that they didn't add dual swords as a weapon type?
I would say that I am mixed on the game. I am rarely pushed to the extreme side of things (purely negative or purely positive. I liked some parts of the game, I didn't like other parts. The "dungeon enthusiast" side of me was let down. That's for sure. Which was the focus of this video, so obviously I will be a bit more negative.
I wouldn't say there wasn't enough content. It's just that a significant portion of that content did not resonate with me all that much. You can have 10.000 shrines in the game, but if the shrine concept itself is not something you enjoy, then it doesn't matter how many there are. The quantity won't change how you feel about it.
@@MonsterMaze Is there a significant portion of content that did resonate?
You've been negative towards the story and lore too, so if the dungeons and puzzles also don't do it, what does?
Sounded like combat wasn't really a part you enjoyed much, either.
@@BaldorfBreakdowns Absolutely. There is enough here that does resonate me, which is why I still consider it a good game overall.
It's nowhere near my favourite Zelda game, but still good. In fact, I can't think of a single Zelda game I truly dislike. The closest would probably Phantom Hourglass, purely because I just don't like the control scheme. Which is something you can't really change anything about. You have to go along with the stylus pen, haha. But I still wouldn't call PH awefull by any means. Just.... not for me.
The lore is probably my least favourite part of TotK, yes. The combat is a mixed bag for me, which I will get into in the next video. I love the traversal, the freedom, the new mechanics (Ascend, Fuse, Recall etc). I like the characters. The final battle. There is plenty I like here. But even the things I think are good or even great are not without flaws either. Things rarely are perfect. Even my top 5 favourite games of all time have things about them that I don't like. And that's fine. Im not looking for absolute perfection in games, or any media for that matter ^^
I think the nearly unlimited power of flight being so easy to access and use is one of the coolest and yet detrimental to game design aspects of TotK. You can build that hover bike really easily and save it in auto build forever and suddenly over half of the exploration challenges/puzzles can be completely ignored. Even the battery isn’t a huge worry with only a few extra slots, because I came to realize that if you’re about to run out of power you can just fly in a steady fashion for 15 seconds and recall your own bike and it will recharge as you keep standing on it and just move backwards a little way. Then you can continue with no issues essentially forever. I don’t think Nintendo initially accounted for how easy it the bike alone would be to continue using, because it really can defeat so many puzzles they set up.
Granted, some of the most fun I had with BotW was after I got good at the base game, I would then give myself arbitrary limits to make exploration more interesting, like “no switching weapons in combat unless your first one breaks” or “no healing mid combat”. TotK can still be played in that way too and fun be had. No one’s forcing people to use the hover bike or other useful devices. But like you said, if you give players the option to exploit a system, they’ll be inclined to do so more often than not. The average person’s experience with the game will be based on what they did in their one and only playthrough, and if the original experience felt too easy to circumvent, then it won’t leave a lasting impression. Mechanically TotK had a lot more to offer than BotW, but it does still need some polishing and more constraints to be given to the player before it can be a bit like the old dungeon/exploration format even amidst the new open world format.
My favorite part of tears was discovering the thunder cloud and completing the spirit temple before any other dungeons was magical. It makes me really hope for more dungeons that the game doesn't push you to would give me the sense of adventure and discovery the dungeon is searching for. Also I loved everything about the fire temple in my second play though when I forced my self to actually interact with the minecarts and actually satisfied completing dungeon without feeling like I had cheesed it.
Another side tangent is that I wished that shrines would be themed around the regions they were located in so making a shrine in faron be jungle themed or one in gerudo desert be desert themed would have helped make them more memorable in my opinion.
So I'm gonna be honest here; I'm a real dumbass and the dungeons of the older Zelda games would more often than not confused the hell out of me and I'd be left wandering around for ages just trying to work out where I'm meant to go let alone what I'm supposed to do. I did personally find that this issue was less significant in Zelda A Link Between Worlds but anything before it screwed me up so many times.
So when I realized the puzzles in Zelda Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom were really simplified and had multiple ways of solving them, I was so happy as I never got stuck.....except now I think the pendulum has swung completely in the opposite direction.
If I had to choose between what we have now with puzzles vs what we had before Zelda BOTW, I think I would go with what we have now but my gosh I would be down if they could strike a balance and make dungeons have the asthetics of the older ones but with the freedom of the newer games with a good doze of challenge injected in.
And if you wanna ask; Why did I play the older games if the puzzles kept throwing me for a loop? It's because I've always loved the stories of Zelda games, I still love playing through Zelda The Wind Waker, so for me the grind of puzzles are more than worth it for the story.
Interesting take. Though I highly doubt your inteligence has anything to do with it, haha. It's kinda like sense of direction. Some people have a knack for it, others don't. My dad can visit a place once, and know exactly how to get there onward. Meanwhile, my mom can drive the same route 50 times and still gets lost the 51th time. And my mom has a higher education btw xD
The way you approach dungeons, is how I approach RPGs. I absolutely suck at them. I just cannot figure out the numbers and strategies. it's all so confusing. But I want to see the story unfold, so I just push through. At some point thing do start to click a bit more, and I get mildly decent at it. The old Zelda dungeons have patterns and effective ways to explore. It just takes some people more time to figure it out.