Hidden Cost of CHEAP AUDIO
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- čas přidán 4. 09. 2024
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Buy once - cry once. Over and done. But, the journey can be fun from cheap to top of budget. Is it the prize or the hunt that's the most fun?
I agree in general with what you say and in regards to audio gear I like getting great value and often buy quality high end gear but second hand … let someone else cop the depreciation!
Also, I’ve recently turned 68 and just improved the sound quality of my 7.2.4 Atmos theatre by about 25 to 30% … and for little relative outlay … how? … I got professionally prescribed hearing aids! Unfortunately our hearing doesn’t get better with age! ;-)
Andrew and Kristie addressed this issue in their trademarked fashion a few months ago -specifically in response to queries re the recent flood of cheap class D amps all utilizing the same TI chip, as well as the “DAC/streamer” of the month; each of which in turn is proclaimed by YT personalities to “destroy” the mainstream audio legacy brands. It all gets rather tiresome.
We’d be better served by learning how to analyze and understand our listening / viewing needs and individual use case. I could have probably afforded to upgrade my entry level 14yr old Ford Ranger to something with more bells and whistles, but now being retired, it gets less than 5000km per year, and it would just be an underutilized rapidly depreciating asset sitting in the driveway. OTOH, I’m getting more enjoyment from even music on my Atmos rig with every penny recently spent.
Who?
@@williamkramer9069Some other random guy and his wife on the internet- Andrew Robinson and Kristie Wright.
So…I am an industry expert who designs and builds award winning high performance theaters, studios, and media rooms all over the world. A reviewer with decades of experience. I have access to nearly everything on the market at any price point.
Andrew Robinson is a reviewer who, while not designing theaters, also has a lot of experience with a vast range of gear. Neither of us are some random guy on CZcams.
I like to think my videos and my takes are very open and honest. I have no problem praising the inexpensive products coming on the market when well implemented. It’s true that a lot of new gear coming out beats the performance of many legacy brands for the money. Also true they won’t have the backing/support or reliability of the mainstream gear.
Topping introduced an extremely low noise and distortion amplifier that sounded quite good. Only for many buyers to have them fail prematurely.
@@PoesAcoustics Matthew, that was a poor attempt at sarcasm on my part. In the latter part of your video, I think you stated exactly my main point: far too many folks buying A/V gear don’t take the time to analyze or understand their use case, but rather fall victim to the FOMO that is the bread and butter of numerous YT personalities and reviewers of cheap audio gear.
@@fonkenful and also my poor taste of sarcasm. I know who they are, I just don't think they should be viewed. They are a video realization of a product's sell sheet. They reinforce old tropes about audio that we know, now through science, are bogus marketing claims.
Using cars as an example: one may desire a Bugatti Chiron, but only be able to afford a BMW M3, or maybe only a Subaru WRX. One doesn't need a $12k, 16 channel processor and Kaleidescape to have a great home theater. Unfortunately many Home Theater CZcams channels (not saying this applys to you Matthew Poes) have abandoned more budget minded systems. Now I get it, sexy gear reviews get clicks. However, one can build a great system and you don't need to spend a billion dollars. It boils down to this: what does the home theater room look like? What's the budget? What's the expectation? A 5.1 system in a small room with a nice flat panel display can be amazing and won't necessarily break the bank.
A lot of my upgrades were due to just not knowing that I would appreciate something before I experienced it. Satisfying low frequency output once I got a taste of it led me to upgrade subs and then frustrating experiences with port noise led me to upgrade again. I've had similar experiences with off-axis performance or output limitations in speakers, feature restrictions of AV receivers, etc. You don't care at first, but the more you learn the more the little things bother you.
Another great video. I have a living room 5.2.4 setup. I wanted to dip my toes in the water, so to speak when I started. After researching extensively, learning about how to read measurements. I bought Polk Xt20 speakers based largely off of Erin's Audio Corner's Klippel data because they take EQ very well and have the dispersion pattern I was looking for. I took your advice on sealed subs. Then, I went to MWave this year to listen to a lot of top brands. Now I feel better suited that my next speaker upgrade will likely be my end-game living room setup.
What your saying makes sense. Except in the case of audio. Audio people will never stop upgrading. Than you also have the even more crazy audio people that make the move to analog. I dont have a single record in my collection that sounds as good as my digital version. Not 1. But people will argue to the death its better. Maybe, but you need to buy the impossible to find version that only had 1k pressings back in 1974. Than you you need to play it on a 10k turn table with an 8k preamp, and 3k cartridge. Its laughable
You are so right on all the points you made. Finding your audio nirvana is quite the journey. My take has been to get the best amp & speakers from the same manufacturer, in my budget, resulting in a wonderful soundstage. Then, your good components sound very good and so on. That is my experience. Now, I listen to the music with a better appreciation and don't chase equipment at all. It really feels great getting there finally. 😊
Years ago I was looking for living room home theater speakers and came across a legendary brands sale and I bought the entire line dirt cheap. Speakers were just okay and after a few years I started looking again. Waited a number of years until I found and auditioned Philharmonic speakers. Loved everything about them and Could not live with my old speakers so I just gave them away. Now I have the speakers I love but yes there was a bit of a money waste to get where I am today.
Generally I agree with this video, im going to invest more next time. Some affordable offerings are better made than others on multiple levels. My Honda has been way more reliable then my BMWs, even though the bimmer handles better and has more options. I ened up getting a used Lexus as a happy middle. Same thing with my 135 year old home.
I did this with carpet in my first home, got the cheapest carpet and after just 2 years it all flattened and could not be fixed, had to redo it all.
Crazy thing is with audio I always buy quality and in the long run it has saved me money. I'm still running the same subwoofer and speakers I got 20 years ago. Have only replaced the receiver to get new features like true hd audio and 4k.
Is this a warning on buying something too cheap or a warning to stop listening to influencers and want to upgrade within 2 years. I think people should come up with a realistic budget and tune the system to the best of their abilities and stop with the FOMO. People being irresponsible with their money is a totally different subject but i wish there were more a/v youtubers who made a bigger emphasis on diminishing returns and can you even actually afford the budget you are putting towards a home theater in the first place. The reason i can easily afford a 60k theater is because i only have a 15k one 😉
William, isn't it great with what can be done when a lot of thought and research goes into building a great affordable system. However, I sure would like to know what "money is no object" feels like.
FOMO - how my bankruptcies and divorces are the result of it? I know I'm guilty of major FOMO as Atmos and my appreciation of high quality audio progressed. Now I live alone with my 7.2.4 budget system(around $3k). Oh well, kids grow up and wives move on. Poo Poo happens.
All the very best, Kevin
@@welderfixer the reason we are here (on Matt's CZcams) is because we need to research to the best of our abilities how to stretch our dollars. If we were money no object we could afford the very best. Go to a hifi shop, audition speakers for a half hour and have someone else set it up, never learn anything about what's making the sound work.
@@williamkramer9069 Yes sir, Mr. Poes is gracefully sharing his knowledge with us. For which I am very grateful. Unfortunately, my AV journey is at its end. Selling all of my belongings very soon.
I wish everyone all the very best life has to offer.
I have always tried to reach for the affordable high end sweet spot in all things. But you have to do your research and find what resonates without having anxiety over how much you spent. I get burned every time I go cheap. For ex) There is a price point on a bottle of wine for me ($15-20) where I pretty much know I will like it. Also Not everyone makes a purchase for the same reasons. If you’re looking for a system that moves you and gives you an emotional connection to the music that’s much different than someone who just wants a good system
Yep. Buy a $200 soundbar then realize you need to buy the $800 soundbar means you spent $1k on getting the right soundbar! 😱
@@jazzkatt7083Play this game long enough and if you can accurately remember 50% of the literally hundreds of individual components upgraded to / from the total cost could easily be in the hundreds of thousands. Back in the day when there was no shortage of retail showrooms representing almost the entire range of audio equipment, analysis paralysis was still a thing, and there were “expert” bloviators publishing mainstream advertising supported as well as “underground” magazines. A favorite jibe at one of my local haunts in the late ‘70s when a customer asked one of those “what about….?” was, “Oh, you just read the latest Absolute Sound?” Most often, that was exactly the case.🤭
Until you hear the $2k sounbar 😂
Here in the UK there’s an old saying: buy cheap, buy twice. (And I still do it sometimes…)
Agree 100%. I save and buy whatever I think carries the sound I like. My system is as follows: Ifi Zen stream; PS Audio Gold DAC and Preamp feeding a Parasound JC5 amp. As speakers I have ELAC towers which I intend to upgrade to Mofi 888 (I like Andrew Jones signature) And that's it. No more money on gear. Ah... I use roon. End of story.
Can we have a follow up video about how to start out in this hobby? I am sure a lot us, myself included, started with low budgets, bought the best we could afford at the time, and upgraded as budgets and our knowledge improved. I would like to think that for those who can not afford a Matt Poes to design a multi thousand dollar system (at least right now), that there is somewhere they can begin.
Buy once cry once is the motto I live by. I’ve done the cheap route trying to save and end up rebuying. There is a reason why they are cheap because they cut corners to hit a price point.
I have 3 different center channel speakers. Fluance signature, SVS prime and SVS Ultra. Should have bit the bullet and got the Ultra to begin with instead of trying to save money.
Have you tried any others before these? Contemplating SVS and do hear good things, but I still do a lot of 2ch listening.
You should hear the ultra pro plus mk2 😂
My point is, there's always something better, no matter what you buy.
@@crazyprayingmantis5596 I'm aware that there's better sounding, more expensive speakers. The SVS ultra is more than adequate for me right now. The previous speakers were never adequate even though I thought was saving money.
Helpful video, thanks.
I buy midline, either old model or refurbed. You get pretty good stuff and a lot of bang for your buck.
Unfortunately, the audio gear quality price vs performance and features are often aligned. With some exotic exceptions. It's rare to have cheap gear outperform something x times more expensive. I've learned this many times over last 30+ years collecting audio stuff. Forums are great and all, but too often people follow some hype and try to defend it later, resulting in some stuff being overblown.
Thanks for the videos, they're great! I have a question! Dirac and Audessy (and most correction systems I'm guessing) set all channels to equal volume at the MLP right? But aren't the surrounds and backs supposed to be -3db relative to the LCR's on all audio codecs except Atmos (and maybe DTS:X)?
And if that's the case isn't it impossible on most receivers/processors to level match the subs with both the LCR's and surrounds? If I'm not mistaken most Sub trim setting are 'global' meaning they can't be set for individual channels, so if a channel is -3db its impossible to also set the sub trim -3db for that channel alone. On most receivers its not possible to have subs level matched with the LCR's and surrounds if the surrounds are -3db. Am I right? This is a crisis!
Thank you for your support of my channel. I’ll record a video and answer your question right after my trip to London.
Hey, Matt. What is the most efficient way to find the correct placement for overhead atmos speakers? I know about the Dolby guidelines for .2 or .4 etc. but is it possible to tweak the placement slightly inward, forward, backward or outward to personal taste? Or is it just chuck them up there and hope you like it? I live in an apartment so I just use command strips to put them on the ceiling because it doesn't damage the ceiling but it's really tedious finding "the sweet spot" for the atmos speakers. Thank you.
Yes. Think of the location of the tops as zones and not precise locations. You want to try to keep the angle between adjacent speakers somewhat evenly spaced to avoid overly large gaps. And you want the tops to, arguably, be placed extreme enough to better engage the HRTF to give a perception of overhead sound. There is a. Range of positions around our ear to the sides that we can’t hear the exactly position very well. The solution is to get out of that. Grimani prefers the tops to be quite high.
As a South African I did a double take when I saw the name of your channel 😂
Does Gain of an amplifier matter or will calibration and level matching fix it? Does it work like gear ration, in a sense that if it’s off it’s off in a linear fashion. Use-Case: Surround 8ch amp has a gain 21 and LCR amp has a gain of 28. Will that cause problems? Thank you in advance for clarifying. PS: Review your new amp :)
So the answer is gain absolutely matters.
First, having lower gain in the front end of the amp with higher voltage output of the preamp is a better design approach. It leads to lower noise typically. Often quite a bit. It’s often like 5-10dB improved. Sometimes more.
Second, gain mismatched like that are correctable in the receiver, yes. However, these devices don’t have infinite abilty to compensate. So imagine your LCRs have an efficiency of 92dB, the surrounds are 87dB. That is a 5dB difference. Now imagine that the surround amp has 22dB of gain and the LCR amp has 28dB of gain. Now we have a scenario where the LCRs total difference in sensitivity is effectively boosted to 11dB. This can create problems where the signal sent to the LCR amp is diminished so much that it’s well under 1 volt max and the receiver can no longer drive the amp to clipping. Thus limiting the dynamic range of the system.
I did one once with a scenario like this. The gain difference was so great that Audyssey (I was using the PC software for the PeQ) had removed 6dB for EQ headroom and with that added to the 10-15dB difference between LCRs and other speakers, the systems max output with Audyssey on was really weak. Amps rated at over 1200 watts and speakers with over 100dB sensitivity could barely hit reference level. Turn Audyssey off and you suddenly gained like 10dB of output.
I talked with Audyssey after the job and they said the problem was that Audyssey needs the 6dB of headroom and the voltage swing inside the Denon simply didn’t have the headroom to deal with this massive difference.
Hi, Matthew. I have a question that I would like for you to answer for me. Would it be to much of a compromise if I was to pull out my in ceiling B&W ccm663(I have six)speakers and replace them a pair at a time with Perlisten R3ic.
I guess to make the question for a larger audience. So replacing a pair of speakers primarily for me in ceiling a pair at a time. Would that cause a insurmountable imbalance in sound quality that my perpro could not overcome. I can only afford a pair at a time with my budget. Hopefully you can make sense of this question.
Thanks! Bert
Unless you change the amplifier it is unlikely you will hear a difference with a different height speaker on the same system.
Thank you for your support of my channel. I’ll record a video and answer your question right after my trip to London.