Intel 12900K Issue Report: VBS, Game DRM, BIOS & Power Limits, Cooler Spacing, & PCIe 5
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- čas přidán 6. 06. 2024
- This post-mortem coverage of the Intel Alder Lake CPU launch focuses on various issues or interests, including VBS in Windows 11, game DRM breaking things, power, and more.
Sponsor: ASUS X570 Dark Hero on Amazon geni.us/01jz
This video talks about several of the follow-up topics that arose during and following initial Intel 12th Generation Alder Lake CPU reviews, including from coverage of the Intel Core i9-12900K, i7-12700K, and i5-12600K. We've already talked about DDR5 vs. DDR4 memory results (initial ones, anyway), Windows 11 vs. Windows 10 benchmarking, and the three main CPUs. Now, we're back to talk about VBS and virtualization support, how game DRM "breaks" the Intel Alder Lake CPUs and prevents them from launching games (and why), how the Intel guidance and power limits on motherboards are once again in conflict, cooler spacing on LGA1700 sockets, and more. We'll also briefly go over some common questions from the audience and comments, like the on about PCIe Gen5 inclusion on Z690 motherboards.
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We reviewed the i7-12700K (and KF) here: • Intel Core i7-12700K &...
Alder Lake Windows 11 vs. 10 benchmarks: • Intel Windows 10 vs. W...
We also reviewed the 12600K here: • Attacking AMD's Prices...
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Intel i5-12600K on Amazon: geni.us/fiTYY
AMD R7 5800X on Amazon: geni.us/Oltaai
AMD R5 5600X on Amazon: geni.us/02wIzEi
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TIMESTAMPS
00:00 - Alder Lake Testing Observations
01:10 - VBS & Default Settings
10:16 - DRM Issues
13:46 - BIOS & Power Limits
20:08 - Cooler Alignment & Spacing
24:27 - PCIe Gen5
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Host, Editorial: Steve Burke
Research, Editorial: Patrick Lathan
Video: Keegan Gallick - Hry
Hey everyone! This is a fun but less formal video. Hope you like the simple format. We're going to be mixing Alder Lake & other coverage going forward now. We always do a big push that's focused on new architectures for about a week or two, but we've covered a lot of the main topics now. More to come, but expect more content variety the next few days. It's been refreshing to have an actually interesting silicon launch! Thanks for the interest and for making the job fun! Grab a GN Tear-Down Toolkit on back-order now to guarantee you get one in the next run! store.gamersnexus.net/products/gamersnexus-tear-down-toolkit
We reviewed the i7-12700K (and KF) here: czcams.com/video/B14h25fKMpY/video.html
Alder Lake Windows 11 vs. 10 benchmarks: czcams.com/video/XBFTSej-yIs/video.html
We also reviewed the 12600K here: czcams.com/video/OkHMh8sUSuM/video.html
Love the format! - you guys are simply the best at tech video's, simple and easy to jump to any section you want, well thought out and all split up into nice bite size chunks.
Variable bit slug.. what does it do Steve what does it do? Where is it going and why does it always want to get on my porch where it's probably not gonna have the best hydration?
As AMD and Microsoft work on patches, Win11 gets more and more hotfixes needed and benchmarks between AMD and Intel kinda has to be re-tested constantly.
Also, it seems that Intel doesn't care that much about 'gamers' but more to the businesses who are scared of ransomware and other security issues.
@@Souscheff pretty sure amd would've faced the same problems if they released their own big-little cpus. DRM sucks
I don't care. I need to know how an i9 performs with googly eyes on it.
Would really be interested in mounting pressure maps for the new mounting kits that are gonna be made by the various companies to adapt older coolers. Maybe 1 vid testing multiple kits?
We can do something like that! Not 100% sure if we have enough kits to do anything with yet, but will try to accumulate enough of them to do something if there is enough interest (and upvote the top comment of this thread if you're interested!)
Yes, that is something I would like to see as well, both with air coolers and aio water coolers.
Would be intresting!
@@GamersNexus +1 The Noctua NH-D15 mounting kit I ordered for my 12900k seems to work well enough - Temps are in the 70s with a quite air constricted case, along with a 3090 not helping the slightest during gaming loads.
Even so I'd be interested in seeing if any other coolers, especially Noctua's replacement coolers for the 1700 with broader base plate, rivals that of their original ones with mounting kits.
This would be great! I just received my Corsair Lga 1700 adapter kit today for my h115i.
"Quick post-mortem" posts a 27 minute video.
As expected of a GN video.
Great job on the coverage!
29 minutes below is short for a GN video, 30 mins. and above is their forte
Here must be a loooong list of negatives to go through 😜
Real post-mortems in medicine can take 1-2 hours. This is relatively quick.
SponsorBloack says 26:36
God I love it. Way more informative than any techie that only creates clickbait videos that barely hit the 10 minute mark. *cough* linus
One important note on this would be that the new Power Limits, "without TAU", only apply to the 'K' SKUs. Non-'K' SKUs will still remain on the old limit (by default (as per Intel spec), but might be able to be enabled in the BIOS).
This is the best tech channel on YT. Thank you for all the hard work and in depth testing. I never miss a video.
The price of the PCI specifications varies from $50-$9,800 for “members” and from $2,000-NA for everyone else. It appears that the prices are used to restrict the information to manufacturers.
When I was fiddling around with Windows 10 features at the time, I saw the Memory Integrity feature for the Zen+ CPU I was using at the time as my main system and I thought, "Neat! A new Windows security feature." Turns out that turning on said feature on made my system performance worse with gaming and some basic productivity applications so I had to turn it off. I really wish I had read that article before turning the feature on and not intentionally degrading my performance. VBS is a useful feature in productivity environments where security is essential, especially with malware that utilizes system resources without user intervention. Thanks for the VBS article!
When MS introduces a new security feature, my first thought is always a) "how much performance does it cost" and b) "what will they break". I just dont trust MS not to screw stuff up, particuarly the the Win10 updating process was bordering on the malicious....
@@termitreter6545 That is an excellent assessment when evaluating new Windows features. There are many I have yet to use for my workflow but it will be a little while longer before I can get there.
This video couldn’t have come out at a better time for me. Right now my PC is in pieces with a fresh motherboard and i9-12900K install in the works. Thanks, Steve!
Brilliant reporting Steve. Thank you.
19:33 For AVX-512, it's important to know the official position of Intel on its support. Currently, their last official statement was to AnandTech, when they said it's not supported and fused off. Which probably means it's not validated and may potentially misbehave, which e.g. will not be a valid reason for RMA. Also, it is possible that Intel releases a firmware that completely blocks AVX-512 for board manufacturers. It would be nice if media pressed Intel for an official clarification for AVX-512 support. Is it validated? Is it supported when Hybrid Technology (E-cores) is disabled? Is it not going to be disabled with a future BIOS update?
Great video, I just upgraded to the 12900k and Windows 11 & was wondering why Virtualization was Enabled so I searched it up & found this video.
Thanks for making great content you have yourself a new subcriber.
I remember seeing some benchmarks showing no difference between PCIe 3.0 and 4.0 on GTX 3090 with conclusion that 4.0 was needed only for some super fast PCIe based SSDs and to be future-proof for GPUs that do not exist yet. Now PCIe 5 is even faster so its mostly a marketing gimmick at this point but I guess being future-proof doesn't hurt.
You can't use the 16x PCIE 5.0 for stuff like SSDs unless you give up having a discrete GPU tho. So not much in the way of useful future proofness. Maybe RDNA4 or nVidia next-next gen high end GPUs will see a 1% benefit on 5.0 vs 4.0 in 2024+ lol
PCIe 5's wins seem to be mostly a thing for servers, computer graphic design, software development, big data computation, etc. Things where _every_ bottleneck widened will help; you do need as much as you can throw at it.
For normal consumers or gamers, it's pretty mostly transition costs for no benefit (potentially faster SSD transfers with next gen SSDs seems to be the only immediately plausible benefit).
It is still good to introduce PCIe5 to consumer space, if slowly, for the sake of standards uniformity. But the consumer targeted marketing shouldn't making a big deal out of it.
Generally new desktop CPUs have a limited amount of PCIe channels going to the CPU directly, with the rest running through the chipset. Having faster/newer PCIe generation channels going to the CPU with a matching GPU means you can run a GPU in an 8 channel configuration and use the other channels for another high-bandwidth device without bottlenecking the GPU or having to go to an expensive HEDT platform instead.
@@robertstan298 It doesnt matter, you dont get it. A device can use a set amount of lanes and these lanes are faster with each generation. Using 4 lanes of PCIe 5 is as fast as using 16 in pcie 3.....
Where we may see it making a difference is when direct storage becomes more important. At that point the gpu will be wanting to directly connect with the ssd. We're not there yet however...
The other potential benefits are probably going to be on higher end motherboards Where they could offer lots more double the number of nvme slots and still have the same speeds as half the number on a gen4 board by splitting lanes. We'll probably see gen6 in a couple of years or so as its just been ratified I believe, but obviously the enterprise market is the primary aim there.
On the point about Gen5, there is something to be said about its support on the platform as a whole, which is that we can add more Gen3 or Gen4 slots with less lanes used.
Some of the Z690 motherboards provide 2x PCIE5 x16 slots running at x8 when both in use. This means you essentially have two full speed x16 4.0 slots, which is very useful to many workstation users who may have multiple GPUs, or need to support blazing faster storage in that extra slot.
(Not to mention the increased count of Gen4 NVMe slots on this generation)
It also helps them as they don’t need to be forced to pay extra for HEDT line up which is expensive and core maybe too much for people who only want extra lane
Think you're wrong here. Won't a pcie gen 4 device be limited to 8x gen 4 performance even if it's in a gen 5 8x slot?
@@Y0URGRANDMA You are correct. I don't know why people think plugging a 4.0 graphics card in a 5.0 slot magically makes it a 5.0 device.
@@dirkmanderin it wouldn't be "magic", 5.0 lanes offer double the bandwidth, so it's a reasonable assumption to think when operating at half speed "x8" it would provide enough bandwidth for 4.0 x16.
But apparently this is only possible with some expensive lane switching chips the aren't generally on consumer boards.
Regardless, two 4.0 x8 slots is still better than the single 5.0 x16 and 3.0 x4 or x8 most of the boards have.
Thanks for the work on the lights to make the shadows a lot less.
13:00 On the matter of DRM: 1 year ago Escape from Tarkov was kicking my brother out of online public games for having VM software installed. Naturally, it was a hybrid work/games pc for home so he could not delete this software.
And these guys are surprised when people pirate their games
@AlexUsman now imagine the tech support moderators of Tarkov shrugging off the issue like some other devs do :D
The internet is a small place, isn't it, Mr. TrickZZter?
Virtual machines are used for cheating in video games, iirc Tarkov had a large issue with that and devs had to blacklist everything what’s related to it. R6S does the same when playing online games
S'like, virtualization & containerization software is so commonly used among developers that I could list hundreds of coworkers/ex-coworkers/acquaintances who would need a dedicated gaming and work setup as a result (not even including those who use Wine instead of Windows). Guilty until proven innocent, eh?
@@MunyuShizumi Yeah sadly this is true.
Such an exhaustive investigation into Intel's new Alder Lake backdoors, thank you for your work in this area!
💕
Thanks for mentioning coolers. I’ve been at a complete loss trying to find information on whether new designs are actually needed because of the larger IHS, or whether we should trust older designs with a new mounting kit. Further complicated by the fact that it seems that most of the ITX boards have clearance issues with VRM height, etc.… Not even sure if there are any valid AIO or air options for ITX. (Open case, so for me total height doesn’t matter, but fitment into the motherboard space does)
You're killin it man :) I really appreciate these informative videos. Also thanks for breaking down acronyms for us. Had no idea what IHS was, even though I've watched all your videos with Kingpin. Plus I'm going to record how many times you bash on the 11900k haha, even though you didnt mention it here. It was an impulse buy as I just came back to the PC world. IM SORRY!
Keep it up man!
I’m just going to say that these draconian DRM solutions, that are so poorly designed as to not anticipate asymmetric multiprocessing topologies (e.g. big-little), when it’s been discussed for years in general purpose computing, and has been a thing in mobile computing for a decade, is just absurd. Furthermore, making profiling assumptions around cpu/core topology in a world of SMT, chip-multiprocessing, MCM’s, NUMA and now asymmetric shared-memory multiprocessing, is freakin stupid.
Basically boils down to DRM is bad and should get removed at all times at all places.
The actual games can implement actual anti cheat in code, but they just make games and won't do that. These 3rd parties are not legit and mine your data. Some are worse and are root kits. Again not good. In early 2000s my team developed anti cheat in game for half-life 2 mods successfully. Game manufacturers didn't want anything to do with it. We didn't have any hackers.
@@tacticalcenter8658 In the early 2000s, no one, let DRM stop them. I had a PC shop, inside a private club (think: liquor) which was also mine, from, 1998-2008.
We used to circumvent Valve's, then STEAM's DRM, until I got tired of arguing ethics with, that greedy tub of lard, Gabe.
I eventually quit playing games that had DRM. It got too convoluted, by 2005, or 2006. Just wasn't worth the time, to mess with. (AAA Games started to suck too. I'm not a fan of first person shooters, nor mobas.)
I may build a new system, just to see how ridiculous DRM has gotten. Now that Intel is finally pulling their heads out of their asses.
I'd really like to see how hard it really is, to stick it to that pos, again. For old time's sake. I figured, by now, the fat bastard would be dead, from a heart attack.
For the record: I circumvented DRM, in games, I had purchased, as should by our right. I don't want their crap data mining code, getting it's tentacles entangled, in my registry.
@@whyis45stillalive its all about money. They don't care about you. China owns the gaming industry.
@@tacticalcenter8658 Sadly, it's been that way, for a long time. They're hugely successful too.
Western gaming culture seems to have given up. The way I see it, if you don't fight, you deserve what you get.
Love the video production and set angle. I want the new i5 but waiting on lower priced motherboards.
I would like to see a cooler upgrade test video where you take a few coolers that support the new socket and how well it works with Alder Lake
Definitely, I could find NO native LGA1700 12th gen heatsinks, so they are all sub-optimal cooling solutions
For 5 seconds I thought I misclicked a video from the times you were filiming in your house. All the vibes for the move in!
Really awesome coverage of these lesser-explored issues as usual. My question is: will the larger VRM heatsinks on the motherboards interfere with top-town coolers like the Noctua NH-C14S? I'm running an ITX build and worried about getting blocked by those big blocks around the cpu socket.
I have a feeling this change to ‘PL1 = PL2’ is purely to avoid reviewers waiting for Tau expiry to get a fair comparison
Yes Steve who does an upgrade over a clean install. This is by far the best hardware site i've found well done.
Would love to see an update video on all these issues.
Thank you for video, really :) !
It's satisfying how the segment bars fill the space between the edge of the screen and the peg board.
I think that you are well positioned to actually perform the pressure map testing for coolers for the 12th gen Alder Lake CPUs (since, it appears, no other tech CZcamsr has that purchased/invested in that capability).
I think that can go a LONG way towards helping people making informed choices about which CPU HSF to buy (or not to buy).
Thanks.
On my X570 Dark Hero virtualization is OFF in BIOS defaults, so VBS is off after a clean install of Win11 on a 5900x/32GB RAM/formated 1TB NVME. I was confused by why everyone said VBS is on by default but this video shred some more light on the requirements!
It's ready for a future thing....concise. Nice.
Thanks Steve.
Of course I've heard of those three letters together, VBS is Visual Basic Script. It's been around since 1996 (according to Wikipedia).
Game DRM breaking is 100% the fault of the game publishers who included DRM in the first place. Publishers should remove that crap from their games, or customers should stop being customers and go pirate games instead. Piracy is a service problem, DRM is poor service for paying customers, DRM encourages piracy. The way you reduce piracy is to not have DRM, so that paying customers get a working game and feel confident spending their money on a game. Proof: people buy games from GOG, a DRM free store, all the time. They haven't gone out of business despite how easy it would be it pirate every game on their store. Once again, piracy is a service problem. The more invasive DRM gets and the more games DRM breaks, the more I want to pirate instead of paying for games.
Related: pirate the GTA trilogy, don't pay for it. Rockstar is using DRM to block paying customers from playing the game they paid for because Rockstar screwed up and left Hot Coffee in the game. Again. Meanwhile pirates are free to play as much as they like. Once again, the message from the game industry is very clear: don't be a paying customer, be a pirate.
Piracy is a pricing problem. No game is actually worth the price you see in the shops or online these days, period. More so EA's staple FIFA, year after year.
@@buggerlugz6753 Making a good game takes a lot of time, a lot of effort and a lot of money, no, you cannot pay all the developers, QA team, designers, and voice actors with chicken nuggets. And there are absolutely games worth the price.
Piracy is a service problem, not price.
GOG barely makes money for CDPR. They have said this left and right and a few months ago they laid off some people
@@aceofhearts573 GOG is CDPR though?
Things would probably have been better for them if only they kept their promises, and made Cyberpunk 2077 good. Also if they kept DRM off of their DRM free store too, since they still have games with DRM on there.
Communist China owns the gaming industry. They use DRM for multiple reasons.
Everytime we talk about the power consumption of the new intel CPUs, it's such a good trip down memory lane to the times when AMD needed small nuclear reactor to run and could heat your room through the winter. I like that role reversal A LOT! We needed something like this to finally happen.
Thank god the paper towels are hung up properly in the background. The reverse TP thing that was going on was bugging me.
Thanks as always for the great video! ~ Especially for giving us a better understanding of VBS...sigh...guess security will always have a speed/convenience cost somewhere... I hope microsoft can work on fine tuning it so it does not become a forced nuisance/performance nightmare later. Already with windows 11, TPM and drive encryption will have to be enabled for most standard installs...enough security for the time being maybe? lol.
New architecture, new problems. Didn't see that DRM issue coming, nice to know. Thanks for these details that many don't find out about until after a purchase.
Great video!
I've lost all interest in hobbying in casual PC building. Scalpers have made it impossible to obtain anything remotely affordable for GPUs and now it's slowly leaking into CPUs.
Thank you for making these videos so I can at least stay up to date in the latest trends.
💔
We just got in 12 gen cpus and we have found some funny issues with windows server and the e cores when vertilizaton turned on. You have to desable the e cores to boot server when vertilizaton is on. Also half the boards only let you go down to 1 e core not all off.
That doesn't make any sense lmao.
And that is sad, the 12900K just destroyed the entire Xeon and HEDT lineup from Intel's history.
AMD is obliterating Intel on server, and now the Xeon and HEDT lineup suck compared to CORE series.
Intel has to make a better interconnect than Ring Bus ASAP.
@@saricubra2867 They haven't used ringbus on their HEDT or Server lineups for quite a while. Bear in mind their Desktop chips are the first of their new generation out the door. We have no idea what same gen same process node HEDT or Server will look like. At the same time it's probably a process node issue. As soon as TSMC could yield desktop CPU chiplets for AMD AMD had their entire lineup ready to go out the door. Intel with monolithic die's needs a much more mature process node before they can yield HEDT or Server CPU's. Still where expecting server chips early next year i believe.
I am not surprised. All of Z690 motherboards and 12th gen CPUs shipped to Gamers Nexus, Hardware Unbox, kitgurutech, and so on we’re scrubbed thoroughly for any bios or hardware bugs. The production 12th gen CPUs and Z690 motherboards in stores will probably have bugs and issues until the manufacturers audit their process.
Most virtualization software and Linux distributions are not setup with alderlake yet. Probably won't be until next year. Would avoid it for this type of work. Not sure if Xeon's and hedt platforms will use big little, but if they do, they will have more incentive to roll it out faster.
lighting and colors were better in previous videos, but maybe that could be the distinctive difference for "quick informal" formats :)
Thank you for the Hardware news Steve! And I have to say, I just love your new background setup in your video's; The background wall color looks excellent! I hope You and the team have been doing good lately, and I'm looking forward to your new studio tour video's coming up as well. I'm so excited for your new place, It looks like it's triple the size haha! :)
Those bots are getting out of hand
It's been going on for a few months...
Mahaps YT should focus on them, rather than the dislike button.
@@rexdink I completely agree
What's do these bots and proper hookers have in common?
As soon as you go to one, you probably have a virus after it. 🤣
Maybe one day CZcams will prefer catering to the bots rather than human users.
@@rexdink they focus on the dislike button?
Great piece, I wanted to know, on my Ryzen 5800x, if clean install windows 11 with Virtualization off in bios, it will set VBS disabled, just want to check
Got myself used 5950 x and croshair VIII formula for 700 bucks im happy with it hearing this :)
You can make the thermaltake original 939/775 waterblock kit to fit most sockets , plus its still great cooling. Some of the p500 pumps have been going for decades. I will add that I switched to EK cooling blocks back on socket 3930k (which thermaltake original didn't fit) . The most important thing to know about water cooling is that there is more cooling to be had when you use custom parts to build your own loops.
VBS is enabled by default in a fresh install on my 9 Gen 9900k system.
Thanks Steve great video, Almost nobody is talking about the limitation of 12 gen Intel processors. Hopefully Intel can work pass theses problems. But There is still the problem of high power use. I am waiting for the 65 watt parts. I hope you can do a video of Window 11 compatibility issues with older platforms 7th gen intel, 8 gen intel, 1 gen ryzen and any older GPU window 11 will not work with. Thanks
Something I've wondered for a while with all the Spectre and Meltdown stuff. As a gamer with nobody else using my laptop (don't laptop shame me!) is the performance loss from all the patches worth it or would I benefit from disabling them? Obviously I'm thinking in wider terms than just my laptop since I want to get a new build together when I can.
*Denuvo DRM* is the problem here with their faulty poorly written DRM, it's not Intel's fault in the slightest. *VBS* should be turned-on for both AMD and Intel.
VBS should be the same for both systems if the aim is to compare apples with apples, and not dragonfruit.
I hope
TIL about VBS, thanks. Just enabled Memory Integrity in Windows.
I have just picked up a new computer at the beginning of the month (May 2022) and the MB / CPU combo was ROG Maximus z690 Hero with i9-12900k with a fresh install of Windows 11 Pro and VBS was not enabled through System Information.
I think it would be interesting to see how it would perform with the performance cores only.
@hedronic_octa thanks, I have to see that!
Steve, the real computer guy.
Yeah, Linus is a fucking joke.
Can you test the issue buildzoid brought up with ring speeds being slow with the e cores enabled. Can you disable the e cores oc the p cores and bring up the ring speed and get similar performance to a fully enabled cpu?
Long, brown haired dude starts doing postmortem:
Me: starts hedbanging profusely
Brown for noctua
@@D7mo0o0on actually this time, brown for araya
Ηow about Asus lga 1200 compatibility?
Using the existing 1200 mount to an Asus m/b isnt better than using a 1700 kit?
I'm just here for the moving VLOGs.
With regards to the Asus strix boards which have tall VRM heatsinks, preventing a lot of air coolers from fitting - some coolers can still fit but require a 90 degree rotation so it will be pulling air from bottom to top instead of front to back. Specifically with an OC on a 12700k or 12900k, is this orientation likely to have a negative impact on CPU temps, especially if using a 3080 or 3090 blowing hot air directly up into the cpu cooler? (Example set up might be Z690-F, 12900k OC with NH-D15 and a 3090, assuming good case airflow)
Thanks for the informational video Steve.
Are there PCIe Gen5 lanes between the CPU and RAM? Can this cause things to run faster if optimized?
What cooler could you guys advise me for the 12700K ? Is a air cooler sufficient ? Examples of good models ?
11:52 that is the first time I have thought about the Scroll Lock key in a while. Sys Req and Pause Break are also on the list of vestigal keyboard keys
I'm thinking Intel had a look at a keyboard to see if they could find a key that almost no-one use, to map this function to. Not a bad move imo, definitely easier than going into BIOS (UEFI) each time you want to turn e-cores on/off.
Hey, does anyone know when DDR5 RAM will be out, or the new CPU coolers are out for the new Alder Lake CPU?
I'm a bit confused. It seems that Windows 10 VBS has 2 different levels. One is turned on by default whenever the V instructions are enabled in BIOS. This is shown in Windows "System Information" summary as item "Virtualization-based security" - "Running", and at the same time, 'Memory integrity" under "Core isolation" setting can be Off.
In this state (where VBS is on but Memory integrity is still off), some applications like AMD Ryzen Master cannot start up. It seems that the basic VBS still blocks some direct access to CPU hardware.
@@qfan8852 I wonder does that refer to just the Windows Hypervisor platform. That is the backend component that powers Windows WSL2 and Hyper-V by running the operating system itself under hypervisor. It doesn't really do much itself, but it allows more efficient virtualization which is required for VBS. It also breaks some alternative virtualization methods as the hypervisor blocks them.
Hope they fix a lot of them
About pcie 5.0 and graphic cards, are they now using more than 16x 3.0?
Pretty sure last gen (2080ti) cards were maxing out around 8x 3.0 for most use.
Both Nvidia 3000 series (Ampere) and AMD 6000 series (RDN2) are PCIe4 capable cards. Steve from Hardware Unboxed showed that forcing modern cards to use PCIe3 can cost you anywhere from 3% to 8%
I watched the Windows 11 test. I didn't see any indication in that video that VBS was on. It was a source of confusion as your lower results for Windows 11 were without explanation. NOW, they make sense. HWUB, was very clear in their Windows 11 testing to demonstrate VBS on and off.
Honestly, there is clearly a subtle shot being taken here by both parties, if you watch both channels you can see whats going on.
Awesome! I Better pay close attention to the $4k CPU I bought six of... (ATOMIC EYE+ROLL)
On the cooler I was given a sythe fumu 2 for free it covers the whole CPU so got the adapter to mount it looks like a good fit unfortunately waiting on my ram before I can boot the pc and see if it works well
Steve, maybe you could try a cracked game exe file and see if that still has the same DRM issue? ;)
CPU simply not work good..
Regarding the PCIe 5 feature for this gen CPU/chipset, the easiest way I found to explain to people why it is currently redundant is by telling them that there is no devices that can use it.
In the future, maybe but not now and there is no way to know if it will get used anytime soon.
I mean hardware support has to start somewhere. Gotta have motherboards with it for products to be made for it. It's a nice to have down the road.
@@TVAlien totally agree with you.
It is more a future proof feature than anything else, PCIe 4 just got mainstream for SSD for example with PS5 enabling its internal slot and most SSD manufacturers offering NVMe Gen4 options.
❤
Currently apart from some benchmarks and certain GPUs that are x8 with instead of x16, there is hardly any measurable difference between PCIe gen 3 and PCIe gen 4. Thus currently PCIe gen 5 also would have no measurable effect.
We are finding the VBS is not enable automatically like we were initially told on Intel 11th generation. Microsoft quietly update documentation with a note.
The community demands performance coverage of Tourist Bus Simulator! I have a 3900x and GTX1080 water cooled system and am desperately trying to justify throwing it into the trash to upgrade to a system that can handle 300+ FPS in TBS.
In all seriousness, J/K, I will cling onto this system until it dies, thanks for all the great coverage!!!
Same here, my 3700x is only a little over a year old, next upgrade will be a Zen 3D. And that should work fine until at least Zen 5 comes out, and the supply shortage will be over by then, and DDR5 will have better supply, faster speeds, lower cost. I'm in no rush to play guinea pig on a new platform.
Hi everyone, just curious how intel’s p cores and e cores allocations works in VMware workstation.
does my Does my deepcool L360 ARGB have ful coverage for 12th gen cpu ihs?
how to get bracket for LGA1700?
them si board with the Asus socket cover broke my brain
Interesting, I did a clean installation of Win11 on my Ryzen 5900X system that meets all requirements and VBS is off. Could it be that the Win11 installation medium does not include the HVCI drivers?
Thought I posted the solution as a reply? It's a USB driver included in the Wacom tablet driver, present in the "Windows 11" wacom drivers. Known since February with a fix available (newer driver from the vendor). This was in Febrary. It's November now.
I mean, it would still be neat if the GPU supported PCIe gen 5 because then you'd only need x8 and could use the other CPU lanes for something else.
The CPU's PEG lanes go to the first PCIe slot.
yes, you could use multiple GPUs (that also support the interface) but that's pretty much it, or slot m.2 drives via pcie-m.2 converter. As long as there are no devices supporting pcie5 (aside the cpu), it's useless.
Great marketing, ASUS. "Dark." That's a new one. They must have spent "days" on that.
I use gigabyte z690 UHD mobo and Corsair h100i elite capelix with 12700k , how do you think that condition ?
so VBS... you guys will test with VBS enabled?
what kind of performance impact does it have?
should normal end users turn it on?
Any motherboard I’ve bought has had virtualization off by default. I’ve seen no reason to turn it on, so I can’t see steering to do so for Windows 11, especially if it has a performance hit.
Weird issue. My final fantasy XV was crashing after a minute or two. Stopped when i enabled intel smart storage from the bios. Didn't expect that to do anything, but i was looking through the bios as it was a new setup and i wanted to see if there was anything in there that could cause problems.
Interestingly VBS was not active and not even available on my Brothers Dark Hero 8 with 5900x. (Win 11 fresh install)
In „Device Security“ it says: Standard device security is not supported.
I used to have *Windows 10 Home,* and if I remember right, it didn't have any kind of options for Virtualization, Sandbox, VBS etc.
All that stuff appeared after upgrading to *Windows 10 Pro.* And even then some things required manually enabling certain things in both BIOS/UEFI and Windows.
Couple days ago, I upgraded to *Windows 11 Pro.* Since Windows Update so sternly kept suggesting it. I've got AMD Ryzen 3700X, so only medium-sized cores.
About the same settings seem to still exist. Now that *Device security > Core Isolation > Memory integrity* is still "On", at least Asus AI Suite 3 doesn't start, but instead totally crashes Windows. Not exactly an important SW + I can always disable that one setting.
Denuvo should be banned altogether for the damage it causes to the gaming ecosystem. I'll keep riding the high seas for more and more games when this malware is implemented into games.
Watching this with Hans Zimmer's Time song playing in a background, feels like watching a suspense thriller movie hahahaha
so does the cooler not being big enough not apply to AIO's?
Hey Steve, it would have been nice if you also discussed Asus LGA 1200 mounting holes that comes with their Alder Lake motherboards. Maybe do a testing with popular coolers as well such as the Galahad and Arctic. I think this is relevant because I believe a lot of people are thinking ways to save cost before they migrate over to the new platform.
So is it not just me? After trying win11 and win10 as well I get the weird fact that MSI Afterburner is unable to fix the gpu power limit %.
I set it to 51% but it still goes up to 89%. Sometimes it glitches and stays at 39%. (Asus z690 Prime-p wifi)
On cooler spacing. In my case my cooler is a little bit more towards to the top than before (z370) and it doesn't fit in the case anymore without blocking the top fan.
Lucky I could align it 90 degrees rotated as well.
the data for VBS is from the press kit docs?
Can you guys talk about the ASUS Z690 motherboards having LGA 1200 cooler mounts as well as LGA 1700? I just want to know if you guys can find a difference between native lga 1700 bracket vs 1200
The 1200 has a larger gap so if you have a noctua-esq cooler with hard plastic stand-offs then you will have a problem. But if you have a spring tension mount then it will be totally fine.
I have such mobo, but since I don't have LGA 1700 mounts I can't tell anything apart from obvious size difference. Btw cheapest (35 EUR incl. VAT in Europe) CM masterliqud lite 120 does the job pretty well - 12600k OCed to 5 on P/4 on E, keeps it in mid 80ies C under C23 load and 180W draw
I wonder if Dell will consider a cooler change for the first time in forever for 12th gen.
WHat i would like to know is with the vbs on what kind of performance hit do AMD cpus take. Ryzen is very memory dependant so does it take more of a hit than intel?
What about adaptive boost? You never tested that and it's not overclock on 11th Gen.
Does anyone know the significance of the batch numbers? Most of the review samples I have seen have that V134I690 batch number on them, but mine is different, it starts V135, I guess here the I690 on GN's CPU is just coincidence, like 690 being the same number as the chip set, mine isn't 690. Anyway, what I was going to say is notice that they haven't put the base clock on the CPU this time, like before the 9900K had 3.6Ghz engraved on the die, the 10900k had 3.7Ghz Etc, but the 12900K doesn't mention the speed at all.
Buildzoid has a video today that shows that turning off the e cores improves performance that does not require as many cores as it can get. He shows performance scaling is diminishing returns above 1.15v, which with e cores disabled does not get past 60c on a 12900K.
By disabling e-cores, the p-cores get a little IPC increase because you can enable AVX 512 (in some motherboards), and the L3 cache space that the E-cores use are available for the P-cores.
Still the IPC and singlethread speed of the p-cores are overkill. I watched 12900K rekt the 5950X in RPCS3 emulator, 40% difference on FPS, (11900K also beats the 5950X but not by a lot).
I would love a way to turn off the E-cores without using the BIOS, so you get free IPC and more speed for Golden Cove without doing a reset.
Adaptative undervolting would be insane for the 12900K at PL2.
could you please make some efficiencies tests?
so basically performance/watt over a few CPUs and generations.
I don't really want my CPU to use 200W constantly so I would limit the power.
energy costs skyrocket currently in Europe, 38c/kWh is just insane.
so how would performance of different CPUs look if they are all limited to 65 or 100W?
That would actually be a interesting test.
Have the last 2 generations(skipping 11xxx series and going with 10xxx series) from both Intel and AMD.
Have each CPU run at:
25 Watt
65 Watt
100 Watt
125 Watt
250 Watt
And then note down their performances over 2-3 workstation task and 2-3 gaming task.
Will take a long time to do and properly not worth it in man hours. But would be interesting to see who is actually king of efficiency.
If power is an issue, go with proven technology with low wattage. I don't even see why your asking. You should avoid this CPU like the plague.
From EU here too, and in one of the countries with the worst electricity price hikes. Alder Lake (and....mostly nothing intel, unless talking about a 10400 or the like) is not for us. While a Ryzen 5600X or 5800X is amazingly frugal in power usage (and while consumes more, the level of efficiency of a 5950X is crazy, for all what it is capable of). Whoever is looking for energy efficiency, for now it's AMD. And of course Apple and their M1 solutions, but A) As I am only interested on desktop (for work), the only sensible (on price) solution is a mac mini, and those can't have more than 16GB of RAM (small for graphic work, even in Mac OS). B) The price you save in energy, you are wasting in incredibly inflated price, specially for any memory or disk upgrade. C) Software, workflow and drivers compatibility. Including many 3D apps that are crucial not existing for Mac OS. This is much of a bigger problem in my loved Linux... but still.
So, while I am no brand fanboy at all, I'm stuck with AMD for a while... But next year has many releases of a bunch of companies... let's see.
It depends on what your doing if your using a cpu heavy work load (like transcoding video) then it will be closer to the maximum TDP, if your just gaming your going to be closer to the minimum TDP. Also keep in mind AMD's TDP is not very accurate as it is an average across multiple use cases (most of which are cherry picked to get that number lower) I actually wish amd would adopt this TDP advertising model as it is way more transparent than what intel and amd were doing before.