Future storytellers (as in, during the Sakoku period) were highly traditionalists: the dangerously open-minded Nobunaga became a monster to not imitate and the one who did all the "bad stuff" during he war instead of his main ally Tokugawa. Hideyoshi was born a peasant, so he wasnt's "as noble" like the other warlords. Meanwhile the Tokugawas PAID the history makers.
Don't this also need to ignore that the Tokugawa got overthrown by Imperials in the end and got blamed for failing to modernized despite the Imperials originally wanted to kick all foreigners away?
What they think in a nutshell: Nobunaga doing typical warlord thing when his rivals kept being unreasonable to him:Terrible and demonic! Hideyoshi's and Tokugawa's tyrannical policies:It was necessary Hideyoshi's invasion of Korea in which Japan lost and Hideyoshi's "dynasty" was ruined:They are Korean and Chinese. They deserve it.
Tokugawa waited a long time while being allies with both of those men for a time He was patient and waiting for the chance to seaze victory and become the winner Then he did what all winners do, he made sure that the people telling his history made him look like a hero
In a weird way, it does echo his sentiment of wanting to separate religion from government. But it's not like he actually wanted to destroy god like in Pokémon Conquest, just prevent man-created religious organizations from gaining political power. And hilariously enough, that's an idea associated with progressive politics these days.
@@dansmith16last time I checked separation of church and state is literally in the first ammendment of the U.S. constitution. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" If you think separation of church and state is a progressive idea, maybe get out of the 1780s and join us in the modern day.
Look at king henry the 8th. He was definitely a wife killer but when you read up on him there's alot more then that. I mean he still did bad stuff (outside wife killing) but still
Frankly, I agree with your ending sentiment. While it's nice to enjoy these wacky anime depictions of these people, it's important to remember the history of these people as well. And honestly, I really don't think anyone should believe any historical figure was a big frikken super robot with a drill spear.
He also had a black homeboy, Yasuke. And was sympathetic towards Christiani missionaries (where he got his guns and black homeboy) he was also very supportive of the arts
Lessons are: 1. Don't get too easy on seeing popculture interpretations of historical figures, only to think that they are true 2. Even 3 unifiers of Japan have their sins and virtues, demon not allways mean actuall aliases, funny not allways mean good, and golden not allways mean virtuous
@@hafirenggayuda If you observe all the portrayals of all three shoguns, hideyoshi might be portrayed by funny monkey guy but there are certain manga that doesn't spare how brutal he can be. When you look at all the overall portrayals, while Hideyoshi is appreciated for uniting Japan, he is constantly portrayed as sympathetic funny monkey at best or unlikeable brutal calculating tyrant at worst. I think some manga do go as far to mention mimizuka or hanazuka under Toyotomi rules. I still think Toyotomi Hideyoshi is easily the unpopular one of the three warlords.
Don't fully know if that quote can apply to this topic since this talks about nobunaga character depiction, and the other two unifiers were in the side during that time. I think Ieyasu's time as a shogunate had great influence not only on Japanese societal structure, but also unintentional subconsciously how modern citizens view the three great unifiers.
Eh, I mean...this is a foreigner studying a country's history and giving his opinion on it. In Japan, there's numerous takes on Nobunaga, and he has done a lot of things, a lot of things which aren't viewed favourably by many in the modern era, but those views actually change many times over Japanese history throughout different eras. There are just so many takes and opinions of him in Japan by itself, that a foreigner coming and saying Anime and Games 'LIE' about him is an interesting take, to be a charitable.
That's not entirely untrue. I mean, I just feel like the whole Imjin War is such a case. I say that because while I know that the samurai and such weren't peace loving hippies by any means, it just doesn't make all that much sense that they'd just slaughter Korean civilians quite as often as the Korean and Chinese sources might want readers to believe. I mean, if they wanted to conquer and hold large parts of east Asia, it wouldn't have taken a super genius to figure out that slaughtering the local population would not only royally piss them off but also hamper their ability to draw manpower into the system to support their only troops, as much of them would be dead.
Not so true in this day and age, but people need to see the truth and not believe the fanstay not to not like it but see it as not how it went like thise disclaimers that show up telling you this is a work of fiction ot reality or this have some racism or sexism in it because it an old media where dude touch women gyatt without their consent like the old jame bond movies
Two major things: 1) The "Narutofication" of Nobunaga is older than you think. I find him fascinating as a historical character but many of my friends in Japan have said that he's taught to them as a villain and a ruthless dictator, so his public image has been poor for decades if not longer. 2) You used a few clips from Nioh 2, have you finished the main quest line all the way through? Because Nobunaga is depicted as fair, philosophical, and while stoic, they tone down his cruelty a lot and definitely give him a few heartfelt moments with Yasuke and Nōhime. Then with Hideyoshi, aside from the fact that they combine his character with the protagonist, he's only initially depicted as a goofy monkey, but they definitely let it be known that he becomes drunk with power later on (granted it's because Kashin Koji/Otakemaru is possessing him and the first Nioh definitely paints Tokugawa as a hero, but the first two unifiers get a way more realistic treatment in these games regardless)
I imagine Japan's Xenophobic past, which oldy enough was a product of Tokugawa's isolationist policies, also play a role in depictions of Oda Nobunaga. After all, Nobunaga worked several deals with European traders and was open to foreigners if it would mean getting an edge in his conquests.
both nioh games did much better with nobunaga than people noticed. nioh 1 even plays with the common perceptions of him, where one of the villains is trying to revive him as a demon king, and then after doing that, nobunaga is basically just like "uhh... no, i'm not gonna go do your weird supervillain stuff, this is stupid and i don't care"
The first Nioh was still pretty critical of Tokugawa: it introduces him with a literal black cloud of evil spirits over his head and makes a point of showing that he had his son killed and was totally ready for his daughter to be as well. It portrays him as a hero but also a sinner. I also felt at least that Hideyoshi's hunger for power is what allowed the possession.
Totally agree about hideyoshi, just wanna point out WHY the korean campaign would be left out of samurai warriors: SamWar is about the CIVIL WAR and UNIFICATION. When Hideyoshi was in power the country was effectively unified and the korean campaign wasnt a civil war.
Fun fact here: Hide died and Japan lost the war. Not knowing how much Damage was done. When Togogawa took over he had Japan Economy restored and prospered. Ming dynasty on the other hand had a damaged economy that was never recovered until the fall of the dynasty itself.
@GaoDaHoi Yup. I was just clarifying why that particular game (of which I've played most iterations) doesn't include any of that. Hideyoshi's story always ends after Komaki-Nagakute, making a "truce" with Iyeasu (as it's presented in game)
Only game that got Hideyoshi as a leader historically accurate was surprisingly Onimusha: Dawn of Dreams as in that entry of the beloved Survival/Horror action series Hideyoshi was presented as a tyrannical egotistical tyrant who was willing to do whatever it took to conquer the world and destroy his enemies even if it meant working with demons and demon-esque beings to do it. Heck the Korean Campaign is mentioned as Hideyoshi in a cutscene states that with the Genma and their demonic forces at his command that Korea will finally be his as no human can stand against inhuman soldiers.
Nah, they don't show it because Koreans would absolutely boycott the game that simulates their colonization, and it would be a huge scandal, as Japan still hasn't admitted colonizing Korea in 20th century was wrong. It's like if Germany was just ignoring Nazi period instead of acknowledging it. Like, Soul Calibur once went as far as erasing all mentions of samurai in general and changing Mitsurugi with Arthur, a European-looking reskin. They really don't want to risk it depicting Korean offensively, and frankly, outside of having you play AS Korea, it would be real hard to do. A samurai game taking place in Korea is like WW2 game with German campaign, most don't want to risk it.
@KasumiRINA No, samurai warriors, a game specifically about the internal conflicts of the sengoku jidai doesn't show the korean campaign because it's not part of the internal conflict of the sengoku jidai
I've said it before and I'll say it again: war and being a good person very rarely mix well. It's never going to be as simple as good guys and bad guys.
Eh, it often is, when some wars have bad guys on both sides, others are just country defending from aggression, it's very easy to tell apart, and people trying to bothside colonization are the worst... Like in what wars of Europeans against Native Americans have the latter as evil guys? None. Or what Mongol invasions have them as good guys instead? Also none.
@@anthonypham5089 that was a flattering "prophecy" given to him, it wasn't how he was judged later, I mean, Cao Cao clearly made crimes against humanity (absolutely enormous massacres), and yet haven't even unified the country, so doesn't have the excuse of doing good deeds by evil methods, he just killed the most in his era.
The funny part about Fate's depiction of Oda Nobunaga is their worst offense is portraying him as a slim-built, gender-bent girl voiced by Rie Kugimiya. Historically, their portrayal is more in line with a more historically accurate Nobunaga: one that is reflective of their failings in unifying Japan and calling out how their successors were fools who made just as many mistakes as they did in their pursuit of a unified Japan.
This gave me one hell of a flashback to dinosaur king on 4kids of all things. In one episode they recited a rhyme that although I don't remember exactly I have found through googling. "Nobunaga piled the rice, Hideyoshi kneaded the dough and Tokugawa ate the cake"
Tbh I don't really know where this positive portrayal of Tokugawa video is talking about comes from. To me it feels like Ieyasu is literally the least popular of the three.
@@MrLuzakmanno seriously I always thought they were making him the good guy all the time rather than a bad guy. He is always treated as "important" but I feel like half of the time its by obligation than people actually caring for him😅 Like there are dozens of games, anime and other media that portrays Nobunaga as hood and the other two as good but are kinda just there
@@dearickangelonej.legaspi6686 I think that Tokugawa's perception in a way suffers from him being the last man standing. Because it means that fans of every other guy would by default hate that not their favourite but "this fraud" won in the end
@@MrLuzakman Tokugawa was one for playing the long game, he also slammed the door shut on social mobility. Hideyoshi started his career as Nobunaga's sandal warmer and became the second unifier. It was his continued campaigns in Korea and his known lack of ancestry to the Minamoto bloodline that kept him from the title of Shogun and everything he accomplished pretty much died with him. Oda and Toyotomi did all the heavy lifting and grass parting while Tokugawa was making moves according to the political climate. He's looked down upon for being incredibly passive and ultimately regressive and isolationist in his policies. He basically took the credit for stopping the fighting because he camped out in tall grass while the last two battle royal contestants pulled a mutual kill.
moral of the story kids? all the sengoku warlords were ruthless in their own way, The tagline for the first Nobunaga's ambition game was even "Be ruthless! your rivals will be!"
My brain is rotten, how rotten?, I've played so much Fate GO, I can no longer hear Nobunaga's name without my brain reminding me of the mini Nobus and their "Nobu No Nobu"
I always hate when games set in the sengoku jidai always make Nobunaga so evily. I'm part japanese, and from my fathers side, come from a line of samurai that served the Oda clan for centuries. In fact when we go to Japan to see my grandmother, my ancestors samurai armor was mounted in the living room with the Oda flag on the wall behind it.Everytime I play period games about the sengoku jidai I will either scream in anger or lead the oda army to conquering Japan as for the reasons i already said.
The nobunaga stuff really reminds me of Vlad tepes. Dude was a monster, but when you look at stuff from the point he would have had to, it starts making more sense. A big one is the burning down and slaughter of a village. This even happened in a flashback in castlevnia. Now it's usually portrayed as ohh he's so evil he just went and slaughtered his own people because they were trading with people outside his kingdom. But no. If you actually look into it, they were trading with the invaders specifically. He showed up, punished the merchants (from everything I've found effectively a warning and actual punishments) saying not to do it again. Than they did, and he came back, punished the merchants properly this time and warned that there wouldn't be another time. They didn't believe him and again traded with the people trying to invade. That is when he burned the place down and slaughtered the merchants. He gave them three chances to quit their crap and stop undermining their home kingdom for the enemy, but they didn't. There's also the famed forest of the impaled. And yeah, brutal and horrific, but it wasn't without point. It was there to terrify the ottomans to bugger off and leave Walachia alone. And it worked. The invading army saw it and turned the hell around because they didn't want to fight someone who would do that. One brutal act protected his lands for quite some time. It's not talked about but Walachia was basically used as stomping ground between two huge empires trying to fight each other. So not only did he have to fend off the ottomans who had been making life hard for Walachia since long before he was born (and he had very personal reasons to hate) but also the holy roman empire and the forces of Christendom. So he often ended up fighting both. He used his image as a monster to his advantage and scared both empires to go around him whenever possible. Despite how most media portrays him as this blood crazed maniac, a lot of his actions feel like he was calculating how to scare people and avoid having to kill more than needed. While these ones seem dubious (if anyone has some actual sources on these let me know) but I've heard other examples like him learning that there was Christian propaganda about him being a demon, and because it made them scared he rolled with it and played into it effectively saying "if I'm a demon, do you really want to anger me?" as well as a battle where he attacked an ottoman force with a small army, only to almost immediately retreat over a hill, but as his soldiers vanished from sight over the hill he set free thousands of bats to give the illusion that his army were vampires and had fled via magic (I myself call some degree of BS on this one as bats and vampires didn't really get tied until bram stoker rolled around almost four hundred years later) in an attempt to scare the enemy off.
@@vardiganxpl1698 son of the dragon. It was due to his father joining the order of the dragon which gave him the new title dracul (the dragon) that's all the sons plural became Dracula but Vlad was the only one to use the name. Pulling that note it stands to reason that there would be many Dracula's spread across Europe due to the order of the Dragon. But Vlad was said the only one who really used the title prominently
*ironic that Oda despite being "The Devil" by his own words was probably the most morally grey out of the 3 great unifiers while the other 2 are straight up evil*
They are all morally complex: Hideyoshi started as the most sensible one, but gone senile and absolutely insane with him turning on Christians and attacking Korea, Tokugawa was pragmatic but ended up massacring rebels and outlawing Christianity altogether, and his heirs weren't better and led to isolation, corruption and stagnation of bakufu regime.
@@KasumiRINA catholic Christianity wasn't good, the pope literally allowed Spain and Portugal to dispose of any none Christian rulers and replace them with puppets, also, they were enslaving the Japanese women and sending them to Europe, under the guise of "it's an Christian wonderland", it's an invasive cult, and should definitely be prevented from taking root, and you're seriously saying that 250 years of peace was bad, since "stagnation" aka, you prefer constant war
Fate dose have a reason why there characters are not always correct, excluding gender heroic spirits are based on both what they actually did and the myths that people made after them, hell it even gets so bad they even manifest with the skill "Innocent Monster" such individuals include Vlad III, Antonio Salieri and Nobunaga getting his own version because of the one time he called himself the demon king
@@pillarmenn1936 There are a lot of accuracy too in those inaccuracy. For example, did you know Queen Marie Antonnette was actually less of a dictator than many revolutionist write her to be?
@@pillarmenn1936sex sells yes but there are alot of actual lore and details that Fate uses in order to form their servants. They stick to the "modern interpretation mixed with the actual person" depiction for servants doing stuff like "Innocent Monster" which is a skill made to encompass "Known as a monster by Modern times". Antonio Salieri for example is mixed with the "White Man" due to the rumours of him killing Mozart getting him associated with the WM which was also said to have killed Mozart. Elizabeth Barthory has the skill due to her future as "Carmilla" who bathed on the blood of girls but also has a connection to dragons to due her family's crest. And of course Vlad the Impaler gets turned into a Berserker Vampire when he is summoned outside of Romania because his name is more know as "Dracula" outside of it but inside of Romania he is summoned as a Lancer due to being known as Vlad the Impaler rather than Dracula
Gaijin talks about bout much de hates Fate's version of Nobunaga... despite the fact that fate's version (despite the gender bend) is one of the more faithful version of him. Its literally called out in game that his "Demon King" form is a version that is 'farthest from the truth' and the result of retrograde beliefs in history. And as far as Hideyoshi is concerned, despite that he also takes on a form similar to that of the silly monkey. Hideyoshi is called "happy-go-lucky yet calculative", "emotionally fragile yet cruel without compare", and "double-faced" by almost all in-universe servants who knew him (His alignment is Chaotic Evil as well). Also, in the scenarios where we are fighting against Nobunage, some characters mention that, of the three, Nobunaga is probably the best of all of them and the most preferred one who should've led. We still gotta fight against Nobu because that's not how history played out, and we need to put it back on its original path.
One moment that always gets twisted in games when referencing Nobunaga is his defeating of the warrior monks of the Honganji. Media (mostly games) are content to view the Honganji as simple religious folk and victims of Oda's wrath, and are usually depicted as defenseless monks who did nothing wrong. In history though, the warrior monks of Honganji were thieves and vagrants. They often stole from the innocent, raised taxes in their area to astronomical levels, and their fighting force was armed to the teeth. Oda engaged in a campaign against the monks in order to quash their activities, a campaign spanning a decade, while also at a great disadvantage, as the monk's temple was situated at the top of a hill, which made it easier for the warrior monks to rain down bullets from above using their rifles. Oda eventually manages to win the campaign, and order the men women and children in the temple to be slaughtered, and it's usually this decision that media uses to paint Nobunaga as a bad guy. But think about this for a second: Oda spent over ten years attempting to attack an enemy while situated in a VERY bad position, all while the warrior monks of Honganji killed several of his men, while the campaign drained much of his resources and finances. And if history is consistent in one thing regarding Oda is that he had a BAD temper. So in my eyes, the dude basically had a gamer moment and punished the monks for putting him and his men through so much those past ten years and punished everyone and anyone when he had the chance. That's a VERY human emotion, and while rash and violent, it's not nearly as bad as, say, Toyotomi Hideyoshi's failed campaign against Korea, for example. I think Oda's response to the Honganji campaign was the brash, but understandable. But games try to depict that as Oda massacring innocents. It's just disingenuous. That being said, I love Sengoku Basara's depiction of the dude as literal Satan with a shotgun. It's absolutely hilarious.
Oda just sprared the Honganj after they surrender. He only massacre the monk at mount Hiei during 10 years war again Ikko Ikki. The monk at Hiei were corrupt.
I also love Sengoku BASARA's depiction of Nobunaga despite him my third favorite Sengoku samurai (just below Hideyoshi and Sanada Yukimura being my favorite one). It's just so over-the-top that is impossible taking offense at it. I think even real Nobunaga would think "Heh, that's actually funny" if he were alive XD
As a child and teen you see Oda as a monster, but as getting older and more accurate do more research, you realized that Oda is the least jerk of the 3 unifiers I like how oda nobunaga conquest is him going "ENOUGH WITH THE RIGHTEOUS BUDDHIST SH!T!" and go "if you other warlords think your a great buddhist then I'm a demon lord from hell". Also I would like to see Hideyoshi still have his funny monkey motif, but show that brutal and sneaky side he was more like, but that use that funny monkey persona as a way let his oppoents guard down and come across as more friendly to allies and the commoners.
consider the following, monkeys can pull your arms off and steal your wallet while your taking a photo of them and then sell it back for food have him go full evil monkey "hes laughing and clapping at the slaughter of women and children..."
There’s a lot of lessons to be learned from the Jesuit and Japanese converts who were martyred by the shogunate. Those were some intensely devoted and brave souls and I can only hope that I possess even a fraction of that level of dedication and honor. Blessings upon those who died to spread the gospel to the people of Japan.
The history of the Catholic faith in Japan is fascinating, sad, and full of bad actors on both sides; you had great preachers and priests who used their position to become rich and powerful for their own gains. You have honest converts among the general public, the merchant class, and the daimyo class who later fought to keep their faith in a similar way to the early Christian martyrs and also those who did it only out of convenience and renounced the faith without a second thought later or who (and I can understand that) got afraid for their lives and left the faith. You have great stories of conversion and courage and sad stories of Europeans who gave up their faith and even helped to find and eradicate fellow Christians there... The stories of those men in that period can be scary, amazing, inspiring, and depressing, all at the same time. The Shimabara rebellion of the Catholic Japanese people, left without priests and seen as having betrayed their Japanese identity, is the subject of many good books. That event even shows that material interests (like payment of extra taxes) were involved. Also, the story of the Catholic daimyo Justo Takayama Ukon is worth reading.
@@kinghoodofmousekind2906 Well! The joke is on the Shogunate, Japan’s #1 superhero, Ultraman (Hayata/Lipiah/1966), was created by a Catholic convert, Eiji Tsuburaya.
2:41 just want to bring up that that is explicitly Oda Nobunaga FROM AN ALTERNATE TIMELINE( Origin is from the Fate franchise) we still haven’t properly seen proper human history Nobunaga and plus dissipate her origins from a joke manga she is still a badass in both game and in Fate Type Redline though I DO GET Goombahs point with the whole “Narutofication” thing( also I learned a new word today) The Fate Franchise is very near and dear to me is all
Yeah, it feels like he really judged her without reading up on what she's actually like. Also IIRC "Real-Deal Nobunaga" is hinted at being Proper Human History's Nobunaga, I think.
@@solarixstar It's a shame because if you look past the many artistic liberties, a there IS stuff that is treated with care not to disrespect the source material. But, it's unlikely Gaijin Goombah will ever see that.
I think Oda Nobunaga is the first case of a Memetic Badass in history, it's kind of funny that he suffers from both Flanderization (Emotionless Demon King) and Memetic Badass (the Demon King moneker coming from Nobunaga being a sarcastic smartass in reply to the Takada).
Caesar was a meme, Alexander before him, and heroes from Egypt, Babylon and Assyria, before them Sargon of Akkad... Hell, first one was probably Gilgamesh, mongrel.
07:49 a better example is what happened in the American Civil War in 1861. Virginia seceded from the Union. Its capital is Richmond, which is awful close to Washington DC... OF COURSE, the union armies would repeatedly invade to try to take Richmond.
Except, the reason so many states seceded from the union back then was because the union was refusing them States Rights, like representation in government, and also taxing and tariffing them grossly because the Southern states were much stronger in the economy sense. As for Texas seceding from the union, we could, but because the current federal government is corrupt from top down, doesn't take responsibility for its actions, and likes picking fights, they'd just scream 'traitors' and turn the Army on us. And half the country would believe it was justified.
@kayohwai Bull Run was close enough to Washington DC that several Washington socialites made a point of following the Union Army to have a picnic while watching them crush the upstart rebels. This had predictable poor results when the Confederacy won the First Battle of Bull Run.
@@kayohwai the slaver army never had a chance to win, taking white house doesn't mean a thing, goddamn Canada did it, and even bloody January 6th muppets, so what? You don't automatically declared a winner if you take one building FFS.
Oda Nobunaga was just an ambitious guy and his ambitions were seen as bad, despite everyone else having their own ambitions that were causing as much or even worse problems, nobody in leadership is fully clean of wrong doings at some point. I'd liken the fairy tale version of Oda Nobunaga in media to that of a wrestling heel. Hideyoshi was just a farmer to start off right? A lot of things went wrong once Hideyoshi really started tasting power and he was quite a constant opportunist that ruined things for everyone else, he's a guy that went from some rather humble origins to an absolute nightmare for anyone 'in his way'. I wonder if someone actually pointed out that Ieyasu had a lot of money, when he was busy telling everyone else that anyone with a lot of money was suspect. Is it wrong to like Oda Nobunyaga for being a cat with guns?
remember, they kill Julius Caesar also because of his ambition. he was beloved by the people despite he is not clean of atrocities him self, but the senate kill him because he threatened their power
"Oda Nobunaga was just an ambitious guy and his ambitions were seen as bad" Dude, he killed a lot of people, including burning alive women and children in pursuit of a full reign over japan. You might as well say that hitler was just an ambitious guy
@@alexkozliayev9902 which one back in history didnt do that during war? you think Obama didnt bomb a ton of inocent children? Alexandaer the Great didnt kill a bunch of men and women during his conquest? Khan didnt become the greatest Mongolian Leader for his peace talk. that is what ambitious men do do be king. even so, Oda didnt do those thing out of bigotry, he did those thing out of necessity. and yes, Hitler too was an ambitious guy. but him going around mass murdering Jews litereally achive nothing. his ideal was twisted and corrupt.
@@alexkozliayev9902Hitler’s express purpose was to wipe out Jews and create living space for Germans. Nobunaga wanted to unite his country. Let’s not compare the two.
Not quite. A thing about nobunaga is that he had a tendency to piss a few people off in a very culturally segregated climate reason he wasn't killed earlier and stomped out was because he was open to guns, in a country of blades and bows. And he was open to opinions which made him an effective general. It's why it took old age and a completely unexpected betrayal (so unexpected that not even historians are fully sure why akechi did it) to do him in. Though my assumption might be that nobunaga lived to break so many traditions that one final break in tradition made him go "enough is enough" and just went for it.
My first introduction to Nobunaga was Encarta, the digital enciclopedia predecesor of Wikipedia. Then I watched a rather lighthearted depiction of him in media, the anime "Oda Nobuna no Yabou". Despite depicting the warlords as cute girls, surprisingly it shows somewhat realistically the demeanor of Nobuna(ga). Then, I often thought Nobunaga was rather a good guy, even if a bit eccentric, meanwhile, I hated when media depicted either Akechi Mitsuhide or Tokugawa Ieyasu as the heroes. Having said that, I love Sengoku BASARA's portrayals of both Nobunaga and Mitsuhide, it's just so over-the-top that is impossible to take offense XD XD
My first real exposure to the Sengoku era history was the Nioh games, and boy when I tell you the culture shock I get when I saw what Tokugawa looks like in Samurai Warriors vs Nioh. 😂
For me it was the opposite, started with SW before playing Nioh. But what about his SW portrayal was shocking? And also SW has 2 version. 1-4 while slightly different portrayed all characters in one way (usually just a costume change, and slight story differences), while 5 completely changed all the characters.
@@bombader2677 Ranmaru wasn't in Dynasty Warriors, I think at least. Only Samurai Warriors and Warriors Orochi. While I never played a WO game, I can't remember him ever being a joke in SW.
I haven't played Nioh but from what I glance on yt thumbnail, they look pretty similar? Well, as in samurai old man sorta way, I guess Nioh is way thinner.
I mean, let's be real: Next to nobody in the Sengoku Jidai was a good person. Basically every daimyo was a horrible person in some form or another. I personally enjoy Nobunaga's persona in Samurai Warriors 1-4. He wasn't really a 'villain' per say. Sure, he was more or less the main antagonist, but he was always portrayed as a conqueror who would do what the land needed most. Hideyoshi, on the other hand, is always portrayed with his positive aspects while ignoring his more despicable elements. Ironically enough, the fact you showed Nioh's portrayal is great, because it's probably his most historically accurate one.
I see him in a similar light to Dracula. An actually good man who used a reputation of ruthless brutality to deter enemies, and eventually it made him a monster in pop culture.
@mikaelantonkurki He was beloved by the poeple he ruled over. He is still considered a national hero today. He didn't rule through fear. He only made the Ottomans and Muslims who kept trying to vassalize his country fear him. Considering they grossly outnumbered him 100s to 1, making the largest Muslim power at the time fear invading Vlads small country of Wallachia is an enormously impressive feet. Vlad the Impaler was undoubtedly ruthless, but he loved his poeple.
@mikaelantonkurki I fail to understand the point your trying to make. Vlad is still a Romanian National hero today. If it wasn't for him everyone there would be speaking Arabic. His legacy endured into the modern Era. Vlad Impaling the Ottoman invaders was hardly a unique practice to him. He learned that style of demoralization from the poeple he was fighting against. He only used that method because he knew the poeple he was fighting would not refrain from doing likewise. Before becoming the ruler of Wallachia. Vlad had military experience fighting alongside the Ottomans since he was forced to be a hostage to the Ottomans as a child. A necessary sacrifice His father made to protect the country from being maruaded by the Ottomans. If Vlad hadn't impaled the invaders, they would have impaled the citizens of the country in order to assert their rule. Vlad didn't stoop to any act of cruelty his enemies didn't have an already well established reputation for doing. Impaling being among them. The Soviet's are a very different enemy from a completely different time. And I don't know much of history about Finland. But I don't see how you can say these situations are equal. I doubt the Soviets were impaling poeple either. Wear as the Ottomans Vlad was fighting, acts of cruelty like impaling were par for the course. Vlads enemies did that. and worse. Vlad was not a uniquely cruel person for that time period.
Reminds me of how Cao Cao gets portrayed as a supervillain in a lot of Romance of the Three Kingdoms adaptations. In fact, the first Warriors Orochi game seems to lampshade the similar character assassinations by having people get Cao Cao and Nobunaga mixed up, lol.
Yeah... I actually appreciate the later DW games for making him a surprisingly multidimensional character. He does brutal acts. But he genuinely cares for his troops and people. You can actually get the sense that, he's doing brutal things for the greater good. Though, I do have to dock some points from DW. Since they paint Liu Bei as this virtuous saint.... like Ieyasu, he is ABSOLUTELY NOT AT ALL. He and his troops did some awful things. And fiction likes to gloss over this fact.
Not to mention how Romance of the Three Kingdoms propped up Guan Yu so heavily that he became the Chinese God of War, even though IRL Guan Yu was apparently a terrible general whose major "accomplishments" were either made up or were actually done by someone else.
Ironically, the one source I think gets Nobunaga LESS Flanderized? Of all things, KAMEN RIDER. Nobunaga has had four major appearences, and while some fall into the brutal warlord view, they also give service to the totallity of him. The first, a Humoculous powered by Desire Alchemy. He has a desire for power but is quick to learn, manifests that power to take over a company, seeks out vengence on a decendent of Akechi Mitsuhide - but at the same time said descendent reminds him of a dancer he loved who his desire made him want her to be with him, and when he has a talk with his first friend in this life - the Rider of the series - he goes and heals up the woman who got injured in his rage, realizing he was too focused on his desires before being forced into a berserker state. Even when he's in the process of dying after being beaten, his last request is for the woman to be sent a flower - far from the monster a lot of shows depict him as. The second was an alternate universe counterpart who was a warlord. When under attack from an unstoppable foe, his primary goal is one of his underlings escaping when the writing is on the wall, sacrificing himself in what was probably allusion to said death by Mitsuhide. The third? A series focusing on the power ups being the spirits of Luminaries of the past. He was one of the main 15 Luminaries, notable figures of history, and his main weapon is the Rifle - mainly as they had used Musashi for swords. While the spirits don't play major parts, of note is that Nobunaga is portrayed mostly in a heroic light, used by an Anti-Hero Kamen Rider at first, then when that one fell under mind control, he represented the three spirits of that rider who teamed up with the main hero. And keeping in mind, neither Hideyoshi nor Ieyasu get a spot in the initial line up, only being super relevant at a later point where the three make a super mode as the Unifiers. And the fourth... Ahem. The fourth suggests the historical Nobunaga was actually a time travelling Kamen Rider who took up his mantle while the actual figure was a bit of a doofus. It's meant for comedy.
@@rinaldo7618 respectively, the first is the W/OOO movie war. The second is the Wizard/Gaim one. The third one is Kamen Rider Ghost as a whole. And the fourth is Zi-O's Movie Over Quartzer.
Your description of Hideyoshi actually reminds of his interpretation in Onimusha: Dawn of Dreams. I don't remember the story too well having not played it in a while, but through the first half of the game, Hideyoshi is built up as the main antagonist who was senselessly killing countless by sending Genma (essentially zombies) on unsuspecting villages in the name of unifying japan, and even mentions the murder of Hidetsugu if i recall correctly. That said, I feel I remember they did the whole "He was possessed" thing and was never actually bad to make way to the actual main antagonist, but still sounds like closer portrayal to what you described in history.
I wouldn't write off Fate Nabu as even from my limited experience with that version of them from FGO, I know that they are a strong willed person that will do what needs to be done to accomplish thier goal even if those things aren't necessarily looked apon in the best way. That and things like Nabu's skills such as Innocent Monster which is based on negative stigmas that history imprinted on them and they inprinted onto themselves in some situations. Others like Vladd III, Hans Christian Anderson and Salieri have that skill as well which represents negative things that history has done and has perceived them as. Also Fate Nabu is someone who has learned from their past mistakes and points out the flaws and mistakes of their successors and previous enemies and thier wrong doings. Fate also has lots of good depictions of characters like Miyamoto Musashi, Senji Muramasa, and Sakamoto Ryoma. Gender bending aside (at least for Musashi) they are great depictions that showcase great what ifs like Musashi not writing his famous book and not achieving his goal or more accurate to history like like Sakamoto Ryoma being a reformist that got killed before they were able to see any changes they helped to enact.
They did a shocking amount of justice to Gilles de Rais/Bluebeard too, it's easy to get hung up on the rule 34 bait designs but the characterizations are often surprisingly good.
While it's hard to really call any of the three "moral", one thing I've thought is that Nobunaga would probably be the most personable of the three unifiers given how casual he could be with some of his subordinates.
When it comes to recent depictions of Nobunaga, have you heard of: Sengoku Komachi Kurotan A time travel Light Novel (and Manga adaptation) that has (thanks to a CZcamsr named Meti that reviewed the manga version) a pretty good interpretation of him. Not demonized, but also not hero worshipped, but instead going for a Nobunaga that is more of an opportunist that he supposedly was in real life.
Ah yes, judging historical figures by modern moral standards. What could possibly go wrong... Also Ieyasu wasn't the one who closed off the country, on the contrary he promoted foreign trade with his red seal ship system and Japanese merchants were very present at SEA and even India during his reign and until the the mid 30s. Even during the Sakoku period they still traded with their neighbors and with the Netherlands. But anyways Sakoku isn't a bad policy in itself, the tokugawa government just took too long to end the policy.
The image of Hideyoshi in mass media is so funny to me because i first heard about him during my Korean history lectures and so i got to know him as a mass murderer and invader before i met him in pop culture and the difference is hilarious. Even my bachelor thesis is about his invasion on Korea so this topic os close to my heart ❤️ it was fun to learn more about Nobunaga and Tokugawa from this video, thank you!
They likely had to do some unsavory things on the way, but those 3 are the ones that helped bring Japan together. Their lasting impact on the country was definitely a good thing even if it wasn’t always pretty
They did unite the island... but I'm pretty sure invading a neighboring non-hostile nation, slaughtering a previously accepted religion, and putting up an iron curtain that caused both a civil war and made the US knock on Japan's door was definitely not necessary to unite their country.
@@markguyton2868the Korea thing was messed up, the Christianity thing I’m not that mad about considering Europe had a habit of spreading Jesus and genocide to countries that didn’t fall in line. China would end up getting invaded and had to deal with a guy claiming to be Jesus’ brother in a stupid rebellion that got 20 million people killed. Japan got lucky that The US was the first to come knocking for trade had it been the Brits or the French, Japan would have been annexed.
Hideyoshi was definitely a douchebag but the others differently did what they could to bring an end to the chaos even if their motive was power for themselves. Peace is a good thing is the best you can ask for at that time
@@markguyton2868 so you think 250 year of peace was an bad thing, also theirs's an difference between knocking on their door, and forcing them to open up, and conquering, do you know why? it's because Japan also had guns and cannons, just slightly outdated, and you're seriously blaming him for the ending of the 250 year peace, like the civil war caused by the US using guns ships to open them were his fault, and in his time.
18:45 Worth brining up, but from what I’ve gathered, the Sakoku wasn’t really Ieyasu’s idea, because it was his grandson Tokugawa Iemitsu that enacted that policy (Not to mention that the Sakoku began in 1633, and Ieyasu died 1616). That not to say he had no influence in the events that led to the Sakoku, but at the very least, that particular wrongdoing can’t be blamed squarely on Ieyasu. Just to be clear though, I don’t think that error detracts from the point of the video. Regardless of if the Sakoku was his idea or not, everything else he did makes it clear that Ieyasu wasn’t the golden boy fiction likes to paint him as.
Thank you for this! I've found Nobunaga such a fascinating historical figure ever since I took a few Japanese history classes in college. I have a few things I'd like to add, but I unfortunately don't have sources. Please keep that in mind and bear with me, and if anyone can confirm or disprove me I'd appreciate it. First, on the subject of Mt. Hiei, there is a story I was told about the last straw that made Nobunaga snap. As you mentioned, he had been sieging the temple for a long time. Well, one of his commanders was struggling elsewhere, so he had to withdraw troops from the siege to reinforce them. As he was leaving, Nobunaga sent a missive to Enryaku-ji saying basically, "Look, I have business to attend to. Don't attack us as we're leaving, or you'll regret it." Obviously they attacked him, so after that other area was stabilized, he came back and the rest is history. The other story I was told takes place not long after he rose to power. I was was able to find a little bit about this on Wikipedia, so I feel a bit more comfortable about its validity. One of Nobunaga's brothers was part of a plot to overthrow him as head of the Oda clan. The plot was thwarted, and, at the behest of the brother's mother, Nobunaga spared him. However, it later came to light that said brother was still plotting against him, and Nobunaga wasn't gonna give him another chance and had him killed. I like these stories personally because, combined with other stories about him, it paints Nobunaga as a man who tries to be reasonable, but is VERY no nonsense and will not put up with people's bullcrap.
Not gonna lie, I had my suspicions with Nobunaga when playing Nioh 2. You basically get to see him as a pretty chill guy. The sequel to me cleared up any sort of idea of him being this Demon King media keeps depicting him. MEANWHILE FOR HIDEYOSHI, even from the beginning I knew this man would be up to something. Granted the guy was a lovable trickster until he embraced the evil and caused so much tragedy. So hearing this, I’m not fucking surprised one bit. XD While yes Nioh 2 does do this fictionalize things like Naurto, I could see the hints then believe Nobunaga was evil and Hideyoshi was a goober.
my favorite part of nioh one is he's summoned fights you deems your good enough to defend japan calls the villian an idiot for thinking he'd help destroy it and leaves
I think Hideyoshi's doubts were what made him vulnerable to Kashin Koji's possession in Nioh 2, rather than just "embracing evil". Hideyoshi's depiction in Nioh 2 (and somewhat in Nioh 1) is rather a complex one, and at the very end he redeemed himself. I love even how Maria made the same mistake Kelley did with Nobunaga's resurrection, having only heard the misdeeds they cause rather than considering at least once they were also human.
People have a serious issue with Separating Fiction from Reality, but thats not the fault of Fiction Writers. Blame falls on those who refuse to learn History. You cannot force Stupid People to BE Smart.
Hmmm Oda Nobunaga is not THAT badly depicted in SW or Nobunaga's Ambition. Far from he tends to get a lot of credit. They do tend to give him the Darth Vader arc with the focus on the Mount Hiei stuff. The over the top villain stuff is usually present in other media. Tokugawa is very frequently depicted as a schemer and opportunist in games. Both in the Koeie games and media like Kessen. Though both the Oda and Tokugawa depictions actually depict it partially as a positive thing. 'The monkey'. Yeah.. can't really say anything about that one. It's kinda funny If you look at the historical parallels Oda is very much Julius Caesar and Tokugawa the Octavian/Augustus. Oda did the legwork but there was still too much chaos. But he got it all rolling through cunning, charisma, strength of will, opportunism, ambition and a little bit of idealism. While Tokugawa is more the statesman than conqueror. The man surrounding himself with experts while he himself was the reformer. And the patient powerbroker. Oda and Cao Cao have very similar tropes regarding their depiction. Ironic since in my old class on Chinese history Cao Cao is the one that actually gets some good stuff attributed to him that had lasting impact unlike the Wu & Shu factions.
As I understand it, the rejection of Christianity wasn't just "can't serve your lord if you serve your *Lord* first", but rather a fear of Western power. Which does make sense, since sadly when European kings were expanding their influence they often sent Jesuit missionaries with such ideas, since a Catholic church would answer to the Pope, meaning that messages sent from their ports to Japan would carry a great deal of weight. So, not so much "can't serve your lord if you're serving God" and more "can't serve your lord if your highest authority is a European man".
@@KuroNoTenno no other option, you think Catholics were peaceful? the reason they didn't retaliate is because of Japan had guns and cannons, and alot of them, plus halfway around the world.
With all due respect to Gaijin Sengoku Basara’s last release was 8 years ago and iirc Samurai Heroes came out in 2008 in America…so while I totally get his annoyance with the Bishounen protagonist transformation Ieyasu got it’s far from this…universal trope.
@@KuroNoTenno Genuinely? I admit I kinda took Nioh's take on Ieyasu as more nuanced. Like the game does make it clear that Ieyasu's a ruthless schemer and he even considers it wise to kill off William, requiring him to go into hiding, with Ieyasu ultimately deciding not to look too hard for William. But Samurai Warriors I can understand that take. Especially in SW 5 where they play up him being a naive newcomer as a warlord and very much a younger pretty boy.
First time I heard of Tokugawa was in the 2003 TMNT series. Shredder exclaimed that it was him who "conquered Japan and gave rise to the Tokugawa clan" Yea, they must be bad if The Shredder and the Foot Ninja allied with him
@@Birdhouseart well that shredder was an long lived utrom....which I didn't love. But then it's revealed the OG Oruki Saki was a human ninja possessed by the Shredder, a demonic tengu.....that show was wild
Probably my favorite depiction of these guys is Nioh and Nioh 2, although even that is romanticized a bit. Nobunaga is a an ambitious but ultimately fair leader who encourages the main character have goals beyond just serving him. Hideyoshi is a goofy guy who uses words and manipulation to put himself in favorable positions, but gets downright brutal once he gets a taste of power. And Ieyasu is a man trying to unite Japan under his rule and and treats everyone as a tool for his goals, not exactly because he wants to, but because unifying Japan is so important he feels he has no choice.
Big fan of Fate Nobu especially in Type Redline. Also wouldn't exactly call her a loli, writing Fate Nobu off as just fanservice is a shame given how well shes written both as a joker character and a serious, threatening one.
Agreed. Calling her a loli is just reductive, in FGO she's a fun young woman who's not meant to be taken seriously until she does something actually badass, and in Redline she's actually very intimidating.
Fate is one of the franchise you should never trust Gajin Goomba to be critical about. His Shuten Douji video had already said more about his approach toward Fate more than I can.
Don't forget that with the Meiji Restoration came the rise of Zaibatsu basically a select few rich families given subsidized government money to rapidly modernize. These Zaibatsu became one of if not THE leading factors in Imperial Japan's rise and pursuit of war in WW2. So yea Tokugawa arguably railroaded Japan into WW2.
Eh, while his actions did set Japan on that road, there were centuries to course correct. There were a number of alternate paths where Japan didn't become a monster feared across Asia and ally of one of the worst monsters Europe has yet seen. From democratic reformers somehow winning the Boshin War, to civilian government actually holding fast in the face of militarism instead of stepping down for perceived failures to the emperor putting his foot down faster and firmer with bringing his military to heel. So Tokugawa can hardly take much credit for that fiasco. Some yes, but there are a lot of other moving or static players that could be blamed too, and they had better perspective on the situation as it was happening or approaching.
Great video, Goomba! We should all remember the old adage "Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it." I agree that parodies and jokes can be entertaining fiction, and that we should all strive to look in to the actual events events of what happened. Doing so gives us both important lessons and a greater apreciation for the fictions we enjoy.
On one hand I'm surprised it took you this long to make a video about the three unifiers of Japan, but it's a good video and a good message to remember the historical people for who they are by reading history. Regarding the Goemon plays, while certain sources says that Hideyoshi adopted Goemon's baby boy, other sources said that he had the baby be boiled together with his father during Goemon's execution.
Thank god someone said it, because it's been a thing I'm noticing for a while too, I started out as the sort of person GG describes in the video, but slowly learning about the nuances of the history I got to pretty much where he is now. And ironically, Fate STILL has one of the most accurate depictions of Nobunaga, yeah they can be goofy, but that's because the character started in a literal gag manga, but because they're such a popular character, they keep getting brought back, and each time a serious story pops up, you see the depiction of the demon king Nobunaga, so in the end, you kinda end up with what Nobunaga was described as in total, someone who was enterprising and pioneering, a very effective leader, but can be a ruthless monster when they want to be.
An old phrase that I will always remember, those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. Thank you for shedding light on these two I hear so little about 😃
Hideyoshi also decided to take power from Nobukatsu, and then went to war against Tokugawa and Nobukatsu. Tokugawa was already shogun when the event you are talking about happened, so he wasn’t committed to Hideyori at that point. Hideyori was also staring to build his gun stores and army size at this point, with the only intention being war with Tokugawa. Yes the inscription thing happened but there was a few little things that led to both of their battles.
We need to also make sure we do this for our own public figures, both historical and current. Trust me, making both Biden and Trump into caricatures and ignoring their own histories isn't doing us ANY favors.
This is similar to the Three Kingdoms era with Cao Cao. People mostly view him as evil while Liu Bei is the most virtuous and benevolent due to pop culture and the many versions of the novel Romance of the Three Kingdoms. I enjoy the many forms of media. It's nice seeing your analysis of the Three Great Unifiers in this aspect too.
IDk Gaijin. The way you framed Nobunaga makes it seem you are defending his actions as morally right more than military necessity for a totalitarian ruler. Don't get me wrong, I agree that Nobunaga is overly demonized, but I just get a little uncomfortable with the "what you think was going to happen", which is a phrase that we need to be careful using when talking about violence inflicted on someone else. Please don't take this as a criticism, just a comment on the way you framed and expressed your point, one that I agree with
I appreciate the deep dive into a relatively unknown aspect of history but, as someone who translates stories from the Konjaku Monogatari Shu and puts them up here, I can't help but be a bit disappointed at yet another video about the Sengoku/Edo periods. You said it yourself, the Sengoku is easily the most adapted period of Japanese history. And while that's understandable, it's still a bit frustrating that everyone in the west just ignores the rich offerings of other periods, especially the Heian period. Well, I suppose that's why I do what I do. Regardless, I appreciate the video. It's always nice to see someone break unrealistic stereotypes.
The absolute shameful behaviour of those three have deep repercussions in Japanese society to this day. It's a nice thing to have all three men put into context!
@@spacewargamer4181 While I enjoy getting into Japanese history, I have no horse in this game. It's not personal for me. But you call that less uncomfortable? Looking around the world and see the messy repercussions of people that never took the long view into account and the inability from other people to learn from that? That's anything but less uncomfortable.
@@Dreamfox-df6bg Right. But this video isn't about other countries, it's about Japan. Its like you screaming 'feminism' when the topic is discussing slavery.
When it comes to Hideyoshi, I remember well a game by the name of "Onimusha: Dawn of Dreams" which was my first time learning about this period of Japanese history. It does not shy away from painting all of the big bois as monsters both metaphorically and literally, the main character even has traumas about his time in Korea. Safe to say, I've always been kinda iffy on the narutozation of many of these historical figures because of it, and I'm glad people like you can bring a spotlight to the fact that history is written by the victorious and whoever is writing down oral traditions which often only contain grains of truth rather than the full truth as it's often not as good of a story.
I feel like you went way too deep on the downsides of Tokugawa’s reign without looking at how much it improved the quality of life in Japan. There’s a reason the Edo period is looked upon favorably in hindsight.
There's a slightly similar concept to this with the Akira Kurosawa film "Throne of Blood" which reimagines the story of Macbeth within an unspecified part of Japan's feudal age. Though not following Nobunaga, it's as close to the concept as you can get.
I always saw nobunaga similar to vlad the impaler guys who I would best describe as intensly hated men who did overall good through violent and extreme acts that were honest about it both men made jokes in character of being evil and semi courted the image (I know vlad did oda not sure but at least he didn't seem to care) but It still comes as they owned up to what they did without regretting doing it
I'm suddenly put to mind that Tokugawa must have been part of the inspiration behind Clavell's novel "Shogun": a ruler dies, leaving his son to be overseen by 5 daimiyos, only to see their oath of loyalty devolve into a power struggle, with a castle, some Christians, and the fate of Japan's future in isolation involved. Interesting to see, since the chief daimiyo character -- Toranaga -- clearly has to be the analog to Tokugawa. Save that in Toranaga's case, he's seen as a master manipulator and strategist: thinking many steps ahead of his foes, and using people to gain the thing he wanted most: The Shogunate. At times you can find Toranaga as a likable, if at times harsh ruler, but clearly never portrayed on the level of Tokugawa.
For that fate comment I expected more from you as a researcher that you would actually take it into consideration that fate version of nobunaga is actually a pretty good betrayal not to mention that nobunaga is a fan favorite of the franchise both from writers and fans so you straight up attacking her is a quite a disappointment.
The guy isn't a fan of Fate in general. Just look at his Shuten Douji's video. He pretty much skimmed through her profile and view her as just an extension of Kintoki and is a white washed version. Shimosa pretty much prove how wrong that is. Not to mention he doesn't even mention Ibuki Douji eventhough it's a major part of her identity. All of his criticism toward her is more suited toward Ibaraki since aside from her debut event like 9 years ago and maybe Babylonia, she's just a joke character.
Good video; in Pokemon Conquest Nobunaga is more sympathetic. That reminds of how Vlad Tepes is portraited: a national hero in Romania but most of the time a bloodthirsty monster in other parts of the world thanks to Bram Stoker & the Dracula influence Also, a small correction: Fate Nobunaga is not a loli; researching Fate isn't that difficult.
I do get your point.. but you got Nobunaga and Hideyoshi from the Musou series, but Tokugawa from the Basara series... Designs from these two aren't comparable. I mean, Honda Tadakatsu is basically a gundam in the Basara series.. it's very over the top. 😅😂
Ironically, it was the narutofication of many old figures of japan that got me into learning about them in the first place. Learning about Jiraya, the name sasuke Orichimaru and tsunade got me into japanese mythology and history. This, smt, persona, and even a few anime of girlified historiclal figures got me into mythology as a whole and was a big reason i got into your channel all these years ago, so while i 100% understand the issues that narutofication can have on history I feel that anyone who will be interested in this stuff is more likely to be emboldened by these portrayals , as seeds in the while don't tend to grow from random drops of rain then concentrated watering cans. Anyway great video.
Nobunaga being a warlord willing to commit heinous acts for the sake of unifying and empowering his people has the potential of making him an AMAZING Anti Hero or even a Main Protagonist! Yeah he's made some HEINOUS deeds known and did kinda have some beef with Buddhism, but at the end of the day it was for a stable control over a land plagued by classism and infighting. He had to be the scariest mofo in ALL OF JAPAN. On that note, what's your favorite Nobunaga interpretation? If ya hate the Loli one, what about the one from Basara?
i've been sayin this for years. nobunaga was essentially a feudal era punk before punk was invented(that's how punk he is). he was open minded, despised nobility, and fairly meritocratic. i often wonder how japan could've turned out unified under nobunaga
@@andrewgifford1007 While I agree that FATE is a lot deeper than what it appears at face value from the little I’ve dug into, that sadly doesn’t stop the greater effects of “Naruto-fication.” For every 1 FATE fan that looks into the deeper meanings behind the series, there are at least 2 fans who are in it just for the waifus. And you can see the effect happening in real time with internet search engines of how typing in the name shows the caricature first. Do I think that GG should take a deeper look into FATE? Yes. But I also believe that whether the franchise intended to or not, it has affected/ distorted the way people view the actual historical figure.
@@J-manli Every popular portrayal will do that to historical figures, regardless of the accuracy of the portryals. I feel its unfair to make it seems as if that's FATE's fault when that's just how people work, if a new work shows of a historical character and gains enough popularity it will replace the person in the eyes of popular media. Ironically enough the 'Naruto-fication' is often what causes people to gain interest in the original historical piece, in much the same way stories inspired of featuring characters from classical myths/literature push people into reading the inspirations.
I find Nobunaga to be very fascinating, and much more than just a ruthless warlord. However, just a few corrections: First about Nobunaga - When Nobunaga burned down Ishiyama-Honganji, there was no one inside. This is because a surrender had been arranged under imperial orders. The defenders surrendered, and as per agreement, Nobunaga allowed the defenders to leave the monastery with their lives. He burned the monastery to ensure he wouldn't have to deal with it in the future (gotta give him credit, it had taken 10 years to finally conquer that place.) However, the other two sieges of fortified monasteries did not end so peacefully. First, Nagashima was completely burnt with people still inside, leaving no survivors. The burning of Enryakuji was similar, in the sense that the entire monastery was burnt with the defenders inside. No one survived, not even civilians. This particularly looked bad for Nobunaga, especially since the mountain Enryakuji sat atop of, Mt. Hiei, was considered a sacred mountain. This event was what sparked Takeda Shingen to send the letter to Nobunaga (Shingen was related by marriage to Honganji Kenyo, the son of Honganji Shonyo.) In general, the burning of Mt. Hiei and Enryakuji was seen as a very controversial thing, even among the many controversial actions of Nobunaga. About Toyotomi Hideyoshi: - Like you mentioned, the idea for the invasion of Korea may have come from Nobunaga, but we don't know if it really was just a joke. Regardless, the reasons why Hideyoshi would proceed with his campaign are still debated. One of it is that Hideyoshi wanted to give something for the warrior class to do now that the lands were at peace, and you know, may as well conquer China to become emperor of China while you're at it (yes, the goal all along was China, not Korea). Hideyoshi was very afraid of his family losing power after his death, so he tried everything he could to build up the legitimacy of his regime. Becoming emperor of China seemed to him a worthwhile enough attempt. - Hideyoshi's nephew, Hidetsugu, was executed, and once again, the reasons for it are debated. For example, Hidetsugu wished to overthrow Hideyoshi when Hideyori was born, out of fear of losing his position (by this point, Hideyoshi was the Retired Kanpaku, with the official Kanpaku being Hidetsugu, even though Hideyoshi still had the real power). Hideyoshi supposedly learned of this and had him executed. This is just one of the theories, with the other indeed being Hideyoshi wanting to remove Hidetsugu out of the picture. - Hideyoshi was never Shogun. Before the Tokugawa Shogunate, there was the Ashikaga Shogunate. When Ashikaga Yoshiaki was exiled from the capital by Nobunaga, he established his seat at Tomo Palace in Mori clan territory. While he had no real power, technically, he conducted his "shogunate" from there. Ashikaga Yoshiaki even managed to outlive Hideyoshi. Only Minamoto descendants could become Shogun. This is also the reason Nobunaga never became Shogun, as he was of Taira descent; so Nobunaga only ruled under the title of Udaijin, and posthumously, he was given the title of Daijo Daijin. Hideyoshi too acquired the title of Daijo Daijin and also Kanpaku. Hideyoshi likely could not become Shogun, as he himself had been a peasant, and those he married were not related to the Minamoto by blood. He married Yodo-dono (Yodo-dono was daughter of Azai Nagamasa and Oichi; Nagamasa being of Fujiwara descent and Oichi being of Taira descent) and Nene (who also was of Taira descent by blood, but was adopted into the Toki clan, which was of Minamoto descent.) - You could argue that Hideyoshi's first plotting move was using Nobunaga's infant grandson, Hidenobu (which was strategically named as such by Hideyoshi after Nobunaga's death) as a stepping stone for his rise to rulership. - The Sword Hunt Decree by Hideyoshi was a means to pacify the country. Think about it, Hideyoshi fought besides Nobunaga in quelling the many of Ikko-Ikki rebellions throughout the years. With such experience behind him, of course he would disarm the people to prevent more rebellions from happening. Rebellions were way too prone to happening back then, and this was a good measure to reduce their number. It is a valid measure to fix an age of chaos, and if we're going to give Nobunaga a pass for his brutal measures for having been justified, then we should do the same for Hideyoshi. Certainly, a heavily armed population is a destabilizing factor. His other measures, such a restricting travel, were also for this purpose. More control to establish order. More in the replies.
Lastly, about Tokugawa Ieyasu: - Ieyasu was not responsible for the Sakoku Decree. Yes, he limited foreign influence, and his son did as well. However, it was Ieyasu's grandson, Iemitsu, who truly closed the country - this was followed after the Shimabara Rebellion, which was seen as a Christian rebellion (it was actually more complex than that, but the rebels kinda united under the banner of Christianity). In general, foreigners were seen as a destabilizing factor, especially when they brought religion. Just like the Toyotomi, the Tokugawa were very concerned with pacifying the country and ending the chaos. Of course they would try to remove as many destabilizing factors. You could see those 200+ years of a closed country as a rot, but in Tokugawa's eyes, they brought 200+ years of peace to a country that just had been through 150 years of constant warfare. It's not Ieyasu's nor his grandson's fault that Mathew Perry came two centuries later flexing his own power to open up Japan's markets - that fault lies on America, not the Tokugawa, and Perry came in at particularly vulnerable time - none of this is Ieyasu's fault. In fact, the country wasn't completely closed, as Dutch and Chinese merchants were allowed to trade at the port of Dejima in Nagasaki at certain points of the year. Even the Tokugawa knew they couldn't close completely, and Japan did learn a lot from Dutch Studies throughout those years, which included a lot of medicinal knowledge and other technologies. Yes, the country did not develop nearly as fast as the others, but it wasn't really a complete stagnation either. - You mixed up the events of the Sekigahara Campaign and the Sieges of Osaka. Those two events have a 15 year gap. In the years that followed Hideyoshi's death (1598), Ieyasu went against his oath to the Toyotomi, which resulted in the Sekigahara Campaign, with many daimyo taking his side. The country was divided into two, which culminated in the Battle of Sekigahara (1600), which Ieyasu won. But this war was not so much against Toyotomi Hideyori himself, more so his supporters, led by Ishida Mitsunari; after all, Hideyori was only 2 years old at this time, and was of no immediate threat to Ieyasu. Just like Hideyoshi usurped Nobunaga's infant grandson without killing him, so too would Ieyasu usurp Hideyori. Ieyasu would become Shogun in 1603 (as he, allegedly, was of Minamoto descent). However Ieyasu only ruled as Shogun for 2 years, then retired and passed the title of Shogun to his son Tokugawa Hidetada. Ieyasu still had all the power, but he wanted Hidetada to learn to handle being a Shogun, so that after Ieyasu died, the country wouldn't fall into chaos again. The years passed, and indeed Ieyasu tried to cultivate good relations with Toyotomi Hideyori, now an adult still living in Osaka Castle. He married his daughter to Hideyori. Eventually the bell incident happened, and that's when Ieyasu went to war against Hideyori directly (this being in the winter of 1614). Yes, the bell incident was very much an opportunistic stretch by Ieyasu, but Ieyasu REALLY didn't want what happened to Hideyoshi happen to him. Ieyasu was very old by now, and his son Hidetada was unfit for war (as had been shown previously in the Sekigahara Campaign) - Ieyasu was very afraid of the country returning to chaos after his death and his family losing power, and Hideyori had actually surprised Ieyasu with his potential and competency - this added much to Ieyasu's worries; and since Hideyori would not formarly submit, Ieyasu used this big stretch from the bell of Hokoji as a justification to kill Hideyori and ensure no lingering threat for Hidetada. Osaka Castle fell in the summer siege in 1615, the last of Ieyasu's enemies had been vanquished. Ieyasu would die two years later in 1617 of natural causes, ensuring a long-lasting regime, with his descendants building upon the foundation he had laid for them. Both Hideyoshi and Ieyasu had something very much in common - they took strong forceful measures to make sure the land would not fall back into chaos. Some worked, others did not, and both tried to learn from the mistakes of their predecessor. Hideyoshi learned from Nobunaga's mistakes, and Ieyasu learned from Hideyoshi's mistakes. No one in this story is a saint, as rarely anyone in history is. However, Hideyoshi and Ieyasu are no worse than Nobunaga. They are all just as ruthless, brutal and plotting as each other. Japan was a land of turmoil, warfare and chaos; and it took a lot of brutality and cunning to bring it back to peace. All of those were qualities very much present among many samurai warlords in Japan at the time. Nobunaga is remembered as the "Demon King" because that's how much infamy his deeds had acquired. Because unlike Hideyoshi or Ieyasu, I'd say Nobunaga was the most honest about his own actions. I say this as my own opinion, but Nobunaga is the one who didn't bother with hiding many of his brutal actions and just embraced them. If anything, his "Demon King" reputation did serve a purpose, as a way to attempt to intimidate his enemies into submission. Nobunaga was quite the unconventional man, so it wouldn't really surprise me if that were indeed the case. And well, after his sarcastic remark towards Shingen, it's no wonder he would be looked as this "Demon King" by history, which at times so much likes to exaggerate events. Media is simply trying to portray this reputation, and it is as much a part of Nobunaga as his true history. This reputation is part of what makes him so cool and unique. He is like a force of nature who brought change to a chaotic land, and arguably one of the most important figures in Japanese history. If you ask me, the Nobunaga's Ambition series has some of the best depictions of Nobunaga in all the samurai media I've consumed.
In a way the people of Japan should be frustrated with the depictions of Ieyasu and hideyoshi in the media (I know it's up to them to decide that though). It's getting farther and farther into the past so things get twisted, but those depictions are basically propaganda.
Future storytellers (as in, during the Sakoku period) were highly traditionalists: the dangerously open-minded Nobunaga became a monster to not imitate and the one who did all the "bad stuff" during he war instead of his main ally Tokugawa. Hideyoshi was born a peasant, so he wasnt's "as noble" like the other warlords.
Meanwhile the Tokugawas PAID the history makers.
Extremely reminescent of the triumvirate debacle that led to the formation of the Roman Empire.
Don't this also need to ignore that the Tokugawa got overthrown by Imperials in the end and got blamed for failing to modernized despite the Imperials originally wanted to kick all foreigners away?
What they think in a nutshell:
Nobunaga doing typical warlord thing when his rivals kept being unreasonable to him:Terrible and demonic!
Hideyoshi's and Tokugawa's tyrannical policies:It was necessary
Hideyoshi's invasion of Korea in which Japan lost and Hideyoshi's "dynasty" was ruined:They are Korean and Chinese. They deserve it.
Tokugawa waited a long time while being allies with both of those men for a time
He was patient and waiting for the chance to seaze victory and become the winner
Then he did what all winners do, he made sure that the people telling his history made him look like a hero
Meanwhile, in Fate, Nobunaga is either a goofy dork you want to hang around with or a dommy mommy
I mean there’s also her depiction in Redline where she’s an unrelenting powerhouse that would do anything to win the war
@@seraph_dalgon_9216 TBF, that's her "on job" whereas GudaGuda is her being her goofy, gag manga origin self
@@chrisdiokno5600 She got that work to life balance figured out ya know?
Unironically the dommy mommy is just as goofy
Who her has her on Fgo. Me, I only have berserker and archer Nobunaga.
Nobunaga calling himself "the demon of the sixth heaven" in context seems like a similar clapback to "What is a king to a god?"
Nah, Matsunaga Hisahide was the one who call Nobunaga that. Others just parroting him.
He got the title demon because he killed all the corrupted monks. Those monks didn’t follow the teachings, just have wife, drink wines and play gamble
Yeah, it's got some "Great Sage Equal to Heaven" energy.
What is a god to a NON BELIEVER
@@falconeshield
Believe now?
The Pokémon conquest version of Oda Nobunaga was strangly sympathic despite him being the final boss
I used to play Pokemon conquest during the DSi era
though I don't remember a whole lot about it.
In a weird way, it does echo his sentiment of wanting to separate religion from government. But it's not like he actually wanted to destroy god like in Pokémon Conquest, just prevent man-created religious organizations from gaining political power.
And hilariously enough, that's an idea associated with progressive politics these days.
@@LonesomeDevil Progressive politics, regressive outcomes.
he had a shiny rayquaza how much cooler can you get
@@dansmith16last time I checked separation of church and state is literally in the first ammendment of the U.S. constitution.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
If you think separation of church and state is a progressive idea, maybe get out of the 1780s and join us in the modern day.
ok, but "Orka NobuDAKKA" might be the single best name for an ork I have ever heard 🤣
I actually had to rewind to make sure I heard that right, then pause to laugh for about a minute because of that name.
The Battle of Nagashino proved the power of MOAR DAKKA against the Takeda cavalry.
Someone needs to kitbash an army of samurai Orks ASAP.
It’s genuinely outstanding
The Imjin War actually being an Ork Waaagh makes a lot of things make sense.
No one is safe from Flanderization, not even history.
Diggly ho!
Ned Flanders: Diggely Ho!
No one is safe from Flanderization, ESPECIALLY History
Especially history.
Look at king henry the 8th. He was definitely a wife killer but when you read up on him there's alot more then that. I mean he still did bad stuff (outside wife killing) but still
Ieyasu Tokugawa may as well have been the original Yakuza boss.
And now I'm picturing him fighting either Kiryu or Ichiban Kasuga from the Yakuza franchise as a final boss. Shirt tossing and everything.
I thought you meant the game series
@@LuisCastillo-tg6xw
No! I meant an actual yakuza
@@ashiel035 Would still be awesome, though.
Check out my game im working on, its a traditional open world ninja experience, its just me working on it currently.
Frankly, I agree with your ending sentiment. While it's nice to enjoy these wacky anime depictions of these people, it's important to remember the history of these people as well.
And honestly, I really don't think anyone should believe any historical figure was a big frikken super robot with a drill spear.
_Do I dare shatter my impression of the amazing and loyal Honda Tadakatsu?_
@@MrDibaraSigma male Tadakatsu Grindset*
Except for Hitler
The dude is a gun nerd who opposed the mainstream religion of his country, won many wars and gave himself a badass title. Nobunaga is based.
He also had a black homeboy, Yasuke. And was sympathetic towards Christiani missionaries (where he got his guns and black homeboy) he was also very supportive of the arts
@@darkservantofheaven*Yasuke
Oda was American before American exist
@@starmaker75 lmao
Nobunaga was a Westaboo before Westaboos were even a thing. What a madlad.
Lessons are:
1. Don't get too easy on seeing popculture interpretations of historical figures, only to think that they are true
2. Even 3 unifiers of Japan have their sins and virtues, demon not allways mean actuall aliases, funny not allways mean good, and golden not allways mean virtuous
Can't think of any demonized people who only gained power as he fixed the problems his countrymen suffered from and was in the right.
Yeah. Hideyoshi's atrocity were barely mentioned in pop culture, where he mostly portrayed as "funny monkey guy"
@@hafirenggayuda If you observe all the portrayals of all three shoguns, hideyoshi might be portrayed by funny monkey guy but there are certain manga that doesn't spare how brutal he can be. When you look at all the overall portrayals, while Hideyoshi is appreciated for uniting Japan, he is constantly portrayed as sympathetic funny monkey at best or unlikeable brutal calculating tyrant at worst. I think some manga do go as far to mention mimizuka or hanazuka under Toyotomi rules. I still think Toyotomi Hideyoshi is easily the unpopular one of the three warlords.
@@Teflondextrue. While Nobunaga mostly portrayed as "Devil king", Japanese people kinda respect him more than the monkey
@@Teflondex Toyotomi might be treated as a joke but Tokugawa is treated as a fraud. Not sure which is worse.
"History is written by the winners... history is full of liars."
Don't fully know if that quote can apply to this topic since this talks about nobunaga character depiction, and the other two unifiers were in the side during that time.
I think Ieyasu's time as a shogunate had great influence not only on Japanese societal structure, but also unintentional subconsciously how modern citizens view the three great unifiers.
quite there alpharius
Eh, I mean...this is a foreigner studying a country's history and giving his opinion on it. In Japan, there's numerous takes on Nobunaga, and he has done a lot of things, a lot of things which aren't viewed favourably by many in the modern era, but those views actually change many times over Japanese history throughout different eras. There are just so many takes and opinions of him in Japan by itself, that a foreigner coming and saying Anime and Games 'LIE' about him is an interesting take, to be a charitable.
That's not entirely untrue.
I mean, I just feel like the whole Imjin War is such a case.
I say that because while I know that the samurai and such weren't peace loving hippies by any means, it just doesn't make all that much sense that they'd just slaughter Korean civilians quite as often as the Korean and Chinese sources might want readers to believe.
I mean, if they wanted to conquer and hold large parts of east Asia, it wouldn't have taken a super genius to figure out that slaughtering the local population would not only royally piss them off but also hamper their ability to draw manpower into the system to support their only troops, as much of them would be dead.
Not so true in this day and age, but people need to see the truth and not believe the fanstay not to not like it but see it as not how it went like thise disclaimers that show up telling you this is a work of fiction ot reality or this have some racism or sexism in it because it an old media where dude touch women gyatt without their consent like the old jame bond movies
Two major things:
1) The "Narutofication" of Nobunaga is older than you think. I find him fascinating as a historical character but many of my friends in Japan have said that he's taught to them as a villain and a ruthless dictator, so his public image has been poor for decades if not longer.
2) You used a few clips from Nioh 2, have you finished the main quest line all the way through? Because Nobunaga is depicted as fair, philosophical, and while stoic, they tone down his cruelty a lot and definitely give him a few heartfelt moments with Yasuke and Nōhime. Then with Hideyoshi, aside from the fact that they combine his character with the protagonist, he's only initially depicted as a goofy monkey, but they definitely let it be known that he becomes drunk with power later on (granted it's because Kashin Koji/Otakemaru is possessing him and the first Nioh definitely paints Tokugawa as a hero, but the first two unifiers get a way more realistic treatment in these games regardless)
This comment is exactly what I wanted to say, mainly the Nioh 2 stuff.
I imagine Japan's Xenophobic past, which oldy enough was a product of Tokugawa's isolationist policies, also play a role in depictions of Oda Nobunaga. After all, Nobunaga worked several deals with European traders and was open to foreigners if it would mean getting an edge in his conquests.
both nioh games did much better with nobunaga than people noticed. nioh 1 even plays with the common perceptions of him, where one of the villains is trying to revive him as a demon king, and then after doing that, nobunaga is basically just like "uhh... no, i'm not gonna go do your weird supervillain stuff, this is stupid and i don't care"
@@MalkuthSephiranobunaga just tellin kelly to fk off he doesn't care and goes to fight the MC because he wants to was such a power move
The first Nioh was still pretty critical of Tokugawa: it introduces him with a literal black cloud of evil spirits over his head and makes a point of showing that he had his son killed and was totally ready for his daughter to be as well. It portrays him as a hero but also a sinner. I also felt at least that Hideyoshi's hunger for power is what allowed the possession.
Totally agree about hideyoshi, just wanna point out WHY the korean campaign would be left out of samurai warriors: SamWar is about the CIVIL WAR and UNIFICATION. When Hideyoshi was in power the country was effectively unified and the korean campaign wasnt a civil war.
Fun fact here: Hide died and Japan lost the war. Not knowing how much Damage was done. When Togogawa took over he had Japan Economy restored and prospered. Ming dynasty on the other hand had a damaged economy that was never recovered until the fall of the dynasty itself.
@GaoDaHoi Yup. I was just clarifying why that particular game (of which I've played most iterations) doesn't include any of that. Hideyoshi's story always ends after Komaki-Nagakute, making a "truce" with Iyeasu (as it's presented in game)
Only game that got Hideyoshi as a leader historically accurate was surprisingly Onimusha: Dawn of Dreams as in that entry of the beloved Survival/Horror action series Hideyoshi was presented as a tyrannical egotistical tyrant who was willing to do whatever it took to conquer the world and destroy his enemies even if it meant working with demons and demon-esque beings to do it. Heck the Korean Campaign is mentioned as Hideyoshi in a cutscene states that with the Genma and their demonic forces at his command that Korea will finally be his as no human can stand against inhuman soldiers.
Nah, they don't show it because Koreans would absolutely boycott the game that simulates their colonization, and it would be a huge scandal, as Japan still hasn't admitted colonizing Korea in 20th century was wrong. It's like if Germany was just ignoring Nazi period instead of acknowledging it. Like, Soul Calibur once went as far as erasing all mentions of samurai in general and changing Mitsurugi with Arthur, a European-looking reskin. They really don't want to risk it depicting Korean offensively, and frankly, outside of having you play AS Korea, it would be real hard to do. A samurai game taking place in Korea is like WW2 game with German campaign, most don't want to risk it.
@KasumiRINA No, samurai warriors, a game specifically about the internal conflicts of the sengoku jidai doesn't show the korean campaign because it's not part of the internal conflict of the sengoku jidai
I've said it before and I'll say it again: war and being a good person very rarely mix well. It's never going to be as simple as good guys and bad guys.
Sometimes there are clear bad guys, like in World War 2, but the good guys still did questionable and outright reprehensible things.
Survival of the fittest, even if you must fit within the evil
Just like how CaoCao who's usually compared to nobunaga was called a hero In times of chaos and a villain in times of peace
Eh, it often is, when some wars have bad guys on both sides, others are just country defending from aggression, it's very easy to tell apart, and people trying to bothside colonization are the worst... Like in what wars of Europeans against Native Americans have the latter as evil guys? None. Or what Mongol invasions have them as good guys instead? Also none.
@@anthonypham5089 that was a flattering "prophecy" given to him, it wasn't how he was judged later, I mean, Cao Cao clearly made crimes against humanity (absolutely enormous massacres), and yet haven't even unified the country, so doesn't have the excuse of doing good deeds by evil methods, he just killed the most in his era.
The funny part about Fate's depiction of Oda Nobunaga is their worst offense is portraying him as a slim-built, gender-bent girl voiced by Rie Kugimiya. Historically, their portrayal is more in line with a more historically accurate Nobunaga: one that is reflective of their failings in unifying Japan and calling out how their successors were fools who made just as many mistakes as they did in their pursuit of a unified Japan.
I mean avenger Nobu looks pretty fine when you see her lovely red hair and body with outfit
I can give that Nobu a pass because it was at the start a gag manga.
Redline seens to take her more seriously.
@@TheTruestZero redline is just koha ace but serious that is pretty much it
Tbf, JK Nobu is the personification of Nobunaga's "youth energy".
They also had the "real deal Nobunaga"
This gave me one hell of a flashback to dinosaur king on 4kids of all things. In one episode they recited a rhyme that although I don't remember exactly I have found through googling. "Nobunaga piled the rice, Hideyoshi kneaded the dough and Tokugawa ate the cake"
Helps to be the last man standing.
Tbh I don't really know where this positive portrayal of Tokugawa video is talking about comes from. To me it feels like Ieyasu is literally the least popular of the three.
@@MrLuzakmanno seriously I always thought they were making him the good guy all the time rather than a bad guy. He is always treated as "important" but I feel like half of the time its by obligation than people actually caring for him😅
Like there are dozens of games, anime and other media that portrays Nobunaga as hood and the other two as good but are kinda just there
@@dearickangelonej.legaspi6686 I think that Tokugawa's perception in a way suffers from him being the last man standing. Because it means that fans of every other guy would by default hate that not their favourite but "this fraud" won in the end
@@MrLuzakman Tokugawa was one for playing the long game, he also slammed the door shut on social mobility. Hideyoshi started his career as Nobunaga's sandal warmer and became the second unifier. It was his continued campaigns in Korea and his known lack of ancestry to the Minamoto bloodline that kept him from the title of Shogun and everything he accomplished pretty much died with him. Oda and Toyotomi did all the heavy lifting and grass parting while Tokugawa was making moves according to the political climate. He's looked down upon for being incredibly passive and ultimately regressive and isolationist in his policies. He basically took the credit for stopping the fighting because he camped out in tall grass while the last two battle royal contestants pulled a mutual kill.
moral of the story kids? all the sengoku warlords were ruthless in their own way,
The tagline for the first Nobunaga's ambition game was even "Be ruthless! your rivals will be!"
I simply love how kouta hirano depicted him on drifters
I was about to bring up "so where would drifters version of Oda Nobunaga fall under" until I saw this. XD
Drifters is 100% historically accurate.
hirano is a gun otaku just like nobu...he respect him
Definitely captured the spirit of Nobunaga for sure
My brain is rotten, how rotten?, I've played so much Fate GO, I can no longer hear Nobunaga's name without my brain reminding me of the mini Nobus and their "Nobu No Nobu"
I get you, I love the nobus and am in fact waiting for the Ocha Nobu
Not women
Either that or hear on your head Rie Kugimiya doing her cartoonish laugh witch you can't get tired of.
do not reproduce
I always hate when games set in the sengoku jidai always make Nobunaga so evily. I'm part japanese, and from my fathers side, come from a line of samurai that served the Oda clan for centuries. In fact when we go to Japan to see my grandmother, my ancestors samurai armor was mounted in the living room with the Oda flag on the wall behind it.Everytime I play period games about the sengoku jidai I will either scream in anger or lead the oda army to conquering Japan as for the reasons i already said.
Man, that's so cool! I wish I had at least one great ancestor. But I will still be happy for having met the 14th descendant of Sanada Yukimura n.n
The nobunaga stuff really reminds me of Vlad tepes. Dude was a monster, but when you look at stuff from the point he would have had to, it starts making more sense. A big one is the burning down and slaughter of a village. This even happened in a flashback in castlevnia. Now it's usually portrayed as ohh he's so evil he just went and slaughtered his own people because they were trading with people outside his kingdom. But no. If you actually look into it, they were trading with the invaders specifically. He showed up, punished the merchants (from everything I've found effectively a warning and actual punishments) saying not to do it again. Than they did, and he came back, punished the merchants properly this time and warned that there wouldn't be another time. They didn't believe him and again traded with the people trying to invade. That is when he burned the place down and slaughtered the merchants. He gave them three chances to quit their crap and stop undermining their home kingdom for the enemy, but they didn't.
There's also the famed forest of the impaled. And yeah, brutal and horrific, but it wasn't without point. It was there to terrify the ottomans to bugger off and leave Walachia alone. And it worked. The invading army saw it and turned the hell around because they didn't want to fight someone who would do that. One brutal act protected his lands for quite some time.
It's not talked about but Walachia was basically used as stomping ground between two huge empires trying to fight each other. So not only did he have to fend off the ottomans who had been making life hard for Walachia since long before he was born (and he had very personal reasons to hate) but also the holy roman empire and the forces of Christendom. So he often ended up fighting both. He used his image as a monster to his advantage and scared both empires to go around him whenever possible. Despite how most media portrays him as this blood crazed maniac, a lot of his actions feel like he was calculating how to scare people and avoid having to kill more than needed.
While these ones seem dubious (if anyone has some actual sources on these let me know) but I've heard other examples like him learning that there was Christian propaganda about him being a demon, and because it made them scared he rolled with it and played into it effectively saying "if I'm a demon, do you really want to anger me?" as well as a battle where he attacked an ottoman force with a small army, only to almost immediately retreat over a hill, but as his soldiers vanished from sight over the hill he set free thousands of bats to give the illusion that his army were vampires and had fled via magic (I myself call some degree of BS on this one as bats and vampires didn't really get tied until bram stoker rolled around almost four hundred years later) in an attempt to scare the enemy off.
To fight dragons, he became a dragon himself... which makes sense.
@@markguyton2868 Son of a dragon actually. Vlad Dracul was his father.
@@hilgigas09 True
The name dracula itself meant something dragon
@@vardiganxpl1698 son of the dragon. It was due to his father joining the order of the dragon which gave him the new title dracul (the dragon) that's all the sons plural became Dracula but Vlad was the only one to use the name. Pulling that note it stands to reason that there would be many Dracula's spread across Europe due to the order of the Dragon. But Vlad was said the only one who really used the title prominently
*ironic that Oda despite being "The Devil" by his own words was probably the most morally grey out of the 3 great unifiers while the other 2 are straight up evil*
Calling himself The Devil was very much in character for him too, since he was rather eccentric.
@@KuroNoTenno *Still bad ass... Would be even cooler if he said: "He was The Storm that is Approaching!"*
They are all morally complex: Hideyoshi started as the most sensible one, but gone senile and absolutely insane with him turning on Christians and attacking Korea, Tokugawa was pragmatic but ended up massacring rebels and outlawing Christianity altogether, and his heirs weren't better and led to isolation, corruption and stagnation of bakufu regime.
@@KasumiRINA catholic Christianity wasn't good, the pope literally allowed Spain and Portugal to dispose of any none Christian rulers and replace them with puppets, also, they were enslaving the Japanese women and sending them to Europe, under the guise of "it's an Christian wonderland", it's an invasive cult, and should definitely be prevented from taking root, and you're seriously saying that 250 years of peace was bad, since "stagnation" aka, you prefer constant war
Fate dose have a reason why there characters are not always correct, excluding gender
heroic spirits are based on both what they actually did and the myths that people made after them, hell it even gets so bad they even manifest with the skill "Innocent Monster" such individuals include Vlad III, Antonio Salieri and Nobunaga getting his own version because of the one time he called himself the demon king
Are you sure its not just because sex sells? Would be cool if they actually showed some of the more historical accurate characters
@pillarmenn1936 I said excluding gender
But remember Fate was NEVER historically accurate and never stated it was
@@pillarmenn1936 There are a lot of accuracy too in those inaccuracy. For example, did you know Queen Marie Antonnette was actually less of a dictator than many revolutionist write her to be?
@@pillarmenn1936sex sells yes but there are alot of actual lore and details that Fate uses in order to form their servants.
They stick to the "modern interpretation mixed with the actual person" depiction for servants doing stuff like "Innocent Monster" which is a skill made to encompass "Known as a monster by Modern times".
Antonio Salieri for example is mixed with the "White Man" due to the rumours of him killing Mozart getting him associated with the WM which was also said to have killed Mozart.
Elizabeth Barthory has the skill due to her future as "Carmilla" who bathed on the blood of girls but also has a connection to dragons to due her family's crest.
And of course Vlad the Impaler gets turned into a Berserker Vampire when he is summoned outside of Romania because his name is more know as "Dracula" outside of it but inside of Romania he is summoned as a Lancer due to being known as Vlad the Impaler rather than Dracula
Fate just makes whatever they want and it makes sense because of the multiverse. It’s a brilliant universe prime for making money.
Gaijin talks about bout much de hates Fate's version of Nobunaga... despite the fact that fate's version (despite the gender bend) is one of the more faithful version of him. Its literally called out in game that his "Demon King" form is a version that is 'farthest from the truth' and the result of retrograde beliefs in history. And as far as Hideyoshi is concerned, despite that he also takes on a form similar to that of the silly monkey. Hideyoshi is called "happy-go-lucky yet calculative", "emotionally fragile yet cruel without compare", and "double-faced" by almost all in-universe servants who knew him (His alignment is Chaotic Evil as well).
Also, in the scenarios where we are fighting against Nobunage, some characters mention that, of the three, Nobunaga is probably the best of all of them and the most preferred one who should've led. We still gotta fight against Nobu because that's not how history played out, and we need to put it back on its original path.
With Gaijin's description, I guess Tokugawa Ieyasu being of a proto-Pretender class makes more sense.
It's also pretty funny when Kama "the real Demon King of sixth heaven" criticizing Nobu for taking that name
One moment that always gets twisted in games when referencing Nobunaga is his defeating of the warrior monks of the Honganji. Media (mostly games) are content to view the Honganji as simple religious folk and victims of Oda's wrath, and are usually depicted as defenseless monks who did nothing wrong.
In history though, the warrior monks of Honganji were thieves and vagrants. They often stole from the innocent, raised taxes in their area to astronomical levels, and their fighting force was armed to the teeth. Oda engaged in a campaign against the monks in order to quash their activities, a campaign spanning a decade, while also at a great disadvantage, as the monk's temple was situated at the top of a hill, which made it easier for the warrior monks to rain down bullets from above using their rifles. Oda eventually manages to win the campaign, and order the men women and children in the temple to be slaughtered, and it's usually this decision that media uses to paint Nobunaga as a bad guy.
But think about this for a second: Oda spent over ten years attempting to attack an enemy while situated in a VERY bad position, all while the warrior monks of Honganji killed several of his men, while the campaign drained much of his resources and finances. And if history is consistent in one thing regarding Oda is that he had a BAD temper. So in my eyes, the dude basically had a gamer moment and punished the monks for putting him and his men through so much those past ten years and punished everyone and anyone when he had the chance. That's a VERY human emotion, and while rash and violent, it's not nearly as bad as, say, Toyotomi Hideyoshi's failed campaign against Korea, for example. I think Oda's response to the Honganji campaign was the brash, but understandable. But games try to depict that as Oda massacring innocents. It's just disingenuous.
That being said, I love Sengoku Basara's depiction of the dude as literal Satan with a shotgun. It's absolutely hilarious.
Oda just sprared the Honganj after they surrender. He only massacre the monk at mount Hiei during 10 years war again Ikko Ikki. The monk at Hiei were corrupt.
I also love Sengoku BASARA's depiction of Nobunaga despite him my third favorite Sengoku samurai (just below Hideyoshi and Sanada Yukimura being my favorite one). It's just so over-the-top that is impossible taking offense at it. I think even real Nobunaga would think "Heh, that's actually funny" if he were alive XD
@@namsonchu1527 War crime is a war crime, you can like Nobunaga without making up excuses for clearly breaking laws of war, and well, massacring PoWs.
As a child and teen you see Oda as a monster, but as getting older and more accurate do more research, you realized that Oda is the least jerk of the 3 unifiers
I like how oda nobunaga conquest is him going "ENOUGH WITH THE RIGHTEOUS BUDDHIST SH!T!" and go "if you other warlords think your a great buddhist then I'm a demon lord from hell".
Also I would like to see Hideyoshi still have his funny monkey motif, but show that brutal and sneaky side he was more like, but that use that funny monkey persona as a way let his oppoents guard down and come across as more friendly to allies and the commoners.
And it also would embody how insanely destructive he could be on a whim
Hideyoshi was a peasant who become emperor, only to introduce Feudalism. Yes, he enslaved all peasants!
That already should tell you a lot about him.
consider the following, monkeys can pull your arms off and steal your wallet while your taking a photo of them and then sell it back for food
have him go full evil monkey "hes laughing and clapping at the slaughter of women and children..."
Tbh monkey is also hella brutal too as animal....you can combine that two...
I feel like lesser of 3 evils isn't really a compliment.
I’m a Catholic in Texas of Mexican descent, and I actually learned about a Japanese Christian named St. Paul Miki.
There’s a lot of lessons to be learned from the Jesuit and Japanese converts who were martyred by the shogunate. Those were some intensely devoted and brave souls and I can only hope that I possess even a fraction of that level of dedication and honor. Blessings upon those who died to spread the gospel to the people of Japan.
@@BoatmayneThaUnsinkable Apparently, there were also some Christian Samurai who had hidden symbolism in their swords. Mostly in the hilts.
The history of the Catholic faith in Japan is fascinating, sad, and full of bad actors on both sides; you had great preachers and priests who used their position to become rich and powerful for their own gains. You have honest converts among the general public, the merchant class, and the daimyo class who later fought to keep their faith in a similar way to the early Christian martyrs and also those who did it only out of convenience and renounced the faith without a second thought later or who (and I can understand that) got afraid for their lives and left the faith. You have great stories of conversion and courage and sad stories of Europeans who gave up their faith and even helped to find and eradicate fellow Christians there...
The stories of those men in that period can be scary, amazing, inspiring, and depressing, all at the same time. The Shimabara rebellion of the Catholic Japanese people, left without priests and seen as having betrayed their Japanese identity, is the subject of many good books. That event even shows that material interests (like payment of extra taxes) were involved. Also, the story of the Catholic daimyo Justo Takayama Ukon is worth reading.
@@kinghoodofmousekind2906
Well!
The joke is on the Shogunate, Japan’s #1 superhero, Ultraman (Hayata/Lipiah/1966), was created by a Catholic convert, Eiji Tsuburaya.
@@whathell6t oh, right, I do recall that!
Hideyoshi: "guy we are going to destory korea and invade china!" Samurai: "I Like Your Funny Words Monkey Man"
2:41 just want to bring up that that is explicitly Oda Nobunaga FROM AN ALTERNATE TIMELINE( Origin is from the Fate franchise) we still haven’t properly seen proper human history Nobunaga and plus dissipate her origins from a joke manga she is still a badass in both game and in Fate Type Redline though I DO GET Goombahs point with the whole “Narutofication” thing( also I learned a new word today)
The Fate Franchise is very near and dear to me is all
Same.
Yeah, it feels like he really judged her without reading up on what she's actually like.
Also IIRC "Real-Deal Nobunaga" is hinted at being Proper Human History's Nobunaga, I think.
@@Tacos299 just like with shuten and raikou
@@Tacos299sadly that’s just how he is with Fate.
He sees the cover and burns the book.
@@solarixstar It's a shame because if you look past the many artistic liberties, a there IS stuff that is treated with care not to disrespect the source material. But, it's unlikely Gaijin Goombah will ever see that.
I think Oda Nobunaga is the first case of a Memetic Badass in history, it's kind of funny that he suffers from both Flanderization (Emotionless Demon King) and Memetic Badass (the Demon King moneker coming from Nobunaga being a sarcastic smartass in reply to the Takada).
First? Really? Not even close. Leonidas has over a thousand years on the guy. And he wasn't even close to first, either.
Nobunaga isn't even close to being the first one.
Caesar was a meme, Alexander before him, and heroes from Egypt, Babylon and Assyria, before them Sargon of Akkad... Hell, first one was probably Gilgamesh, mongrel.
07:49 a better example is what happened in the American Civil War in 1861. Virginia seceded from the Union. Its capital is Richmond, which is awful close to Washington DC... OF COURSE, the union armies would repeatedly invade to try to take Richmond.
Except, the reason so many states seceded from the union back then was because the union was refusing them States Rights, like representation in government, and also taxing and tariffing them grossly because the Southern states were much stronger in the economy sense.
As for Texas seceding from the union, we could, but because the current federal government is corrupt from top down, doesn't take responsibility for its actions, and likes picking fights, they'd just scream 'traitors' and turn the Army on us. And half the country would believe it was justified.
In the first battle of the civil war, the Virginia militia could have easily taken the White House if they'd pressed the charge.
@@kayohwai my point exactly
@kayohwai Bull Run was close enough to Washington DC that several Washington socialites made a point of following the Union Army to have a picnic while watching them crush the upstart rebels. This had predictable poor results when the Confederacy won the First Battle of Bull Run.
@@kayohwai the slaver army never had a chance to win, taking white house doesn't mean a thing, goddamn Canada did it, and even bloody January 6th muppets, so what? You don't automatically declared a winner if you take one building FFS.
for me nobu was just dude that did things but i loved how Drifters made nobunaga as character
God I miss that show
Oda Nobunaga was just an ambitious guy and his ambitions were seen as bad, despite everyone else having their own ambitions that were causing as much or even worse problems, nobody in leadership is fully clean of wrong doings at some point.
I'd liken the fairy tale version of Oda Nobunaga in media to that of a wrestling heel.
Hideyoshi was just a farmer to start off right? A lot of things went wrong once Hideyoshi really started tasting power and he was quite a constant opportunist that ruined things for everyone else, he's a guy that went from some rather humble origins to an absolute nightmare for anyone 'in his way'.
I wonder if someone actually pointed out that Ieyasu had a lot of money, when he was busy telling everyone else that anyone with a lot of money was suspect.
Is it wrong to like Oda Nobunyaga for being a cat with guns?
remember, they kill Julius Caesar also because of his ambition. he was beloved by the people despite he is not clean of atrocities him self, but the senate kill him because he threatened their power
"Oda Nobunaga was just an ambitious guy and his ambitions were seen as bad"
Dude, he killed a lot of people, including burning alive women and children in pursuit of a full reign over japan. You might as well say that hitler was just an ambitious guy
@@alexkozliayev9902 which one back in history didnt do that during war? you think Obama didnt bomb a ton of inocent children? Alexandaer the Great didnt kill a bunch of men and women during his conquest? Khan didnt become the greatest Mongolian Leader for his peace talk. that is what ambitious men do do be king. even so, Oda didnt do those thing out of bigotry, he did those thing out of necessity. and yes, Hitler too was an ambitious guy. but him going around mass murdering Jews litereally achive nothing. his ideal was twisted and corrupt.
@@alexkozliayev9902Hitler’s express purpose was to wipe out Jews and create living space for Germans. Nobunaga wanted to unite his country. Let’s not compare the two.
Not quite. A thing about nobunaga is that he had a tendency to piss a few people off in a very culturally segregated climate reason he wasn't killed earlier and stomped out was because he was open to guns, in a country of blades and bows. And he was open to opinions which made him an effective general. It's why it took old age and a completely unexpected betrayal (so unexpected that not even historians are fully sure why akechi did it) to do him in. Though my assumption might be that nobunaga lived to break so many traditions that one final break in tradition made him go "enough is enough" and just went for it.
I’ve spent years feeling like I was the only one that thought Nobunaga wasn’t THAT bad. The amount of vindication I got watching this was cathartic 🤣
My first introduction to Nobunaga was Encarta, the digital enciclopedia predecesor of Wikipedia. Then I watched a rather lighthearted depiction of him in media, the anime "Oda Nobuna no Yabou". Despite depicting the warlords as cute girls, surprisingly it shows somewhat realistically the demeanor of Nobuna(ga). Then, I often thought Nobunaga was rather a good guy, even if a bit eccentric, meanwhile, I hated when media depicted either Akechi Mitsuhide or Tokugawa Ieyasu as the heroes. Having said that, I love Sengoku BASARA's portrayals of both Nobunaga and Mitsuhide, it's just so over-the-top that is impossible to take offense XD XD
Hey! Fate is more historically accurate than 99% of Japanese media and you know it! Even if the loli's are a cynical ploy to ride off Saber.
It's fascinating because you know they did their research,but then just make their alternative reality anyway
Its like "Get your facts straight, THEN we can make him a woman or a lion"
@@BioMatic2 Edison is not a lion. His face is the pure representation of AMERICA.
@@aliastheabnormal Why Lion and not Bald Eagle? Why not Turkey?
@@KhanhNguyen-mh5ec Because turkey's aren't badass anymore.
My first real exposure to the Sengoku era history was the Nioh games, and boy when I tell you the culture shock I get when I saw what Tokugawa looks like in Samurai Warriors vs Nioh. 😂
I think I had a similar whiplash when I ran into Ranmaru in Omnusha when he was mostly a joke in Sengoku Basara and Dynasty Warriors.
For me it was the opposite, started with SW before playing Nioh. But what about his SW portrayal was shocking? And also SW has 2 version. 1-4 while slightly different portrayed all characters in one way (usually just a costume change, and slight story differences), while 5 completely changed all the characters.
@@bombader2677 Ranmaru wasn't in Dynasty Warriors, I think at least. Only Samurai Warriors and Warriors Orochi. While I never played a WO game, I can't remember him ever being a joke in SW.
I haven't played Nioh but from what I glance on yt thumbnail, they look pretty similar?
Well, as in samurai old man sorta way, I guess Nioh is way thinner.
I mean, let's be real: Next to nobody in the Sengoku Jidai was a good person. Basically every daimyo was a horrible person in some form or another.
I personally enjoy Nobunaga's persona in Samurai Warriors 1-4. He wasn't really a 'villain' per say. Sure, he was more or less the main antagonist, but he was always portrayed as a conqueror who would do what the land needed most.
Hideyoshi, on the other hand, is always portrayed with his positive aspects while ignoring his more despicable elements. Ironically enough, the fact you showed Nioh's portrayal is great, because it's probably his most historically accurate one.
I see him in a similar light to Dracula. An actually good man who used a reputation of ruthless brutality to deter enemies, and eventually it made him a monster in pop culture.
But that is the problem. Don't use fear. If you have to resort to fear you have already kind of failed.
That description reminds me of Barok van Zieks from The Great Ace Attorney
@mikaelantonkurki He was beloved by the poeple he ruled over. He is still considered a national hero today. He didn't rule through fear. He only made the Ottomans and Muslims who kept trying to vassalize his country fear him. Considering they grossly outnumbered him 100s to 1, making the largest Muslim power at the time fear invading Vlads small country of Wallachia is an enormously impressive feet. Vlad the Impaler was undoubtedly ruthless, but he loved his poeple.
@@flyinggothicsheer1346 Finland too was outnumbered durning the winter war. We are still here and we didn't need to impale people.
@mikaelantonkurki I fail to understand the point your trying to make. Vlad is still a Romanian National hero today. If it wasn't for him everyone there would be speaking Arabic. His legacy endured into the modern Era. Vlad Impaling the Ottoman invaders was hardly a unique practice to him. He learned that style of demoralization from the poeple he was fighting against. He only used that method because he knew the poeple he was fighting would not refrain from doing likewise. Before becoming the ruler of Wallachia. Vlad had military experience fighting alongside the Ottomans since he was forced to be a hostage to the Ottomans as a child. A necessary sacrifice His father made to protect the country from being maruaded by the Ottomans.
If Vlad hadn't impaled the invaders, they would have impaled the citizens of the country in order to assert their rule.
Vlad didn't stoop to any act of cruelty his enemies didn't have an already well established reputation for doing. Impaling being among them.
The Soviet's are a very different enemy from a completely different time. And I don't know much of history about Finland. But I don't see how you can say these situations are equal. I doubt the Soviets were impaling poeple either.
Wear as the Ottomans Vlad was fighting, acts of cruelty like impaling were par for the course. Vlads enemies did that. and worse. Vlad was not a uniquely cruel person for that time period.
Reminds me of how Cao Cao gets portrayed as a supervillain in a lot of Romance of the Three Kingdoms adaptations. In fact, the first Warriors Orochi game seems to lampshade the similar character assassinations by having people get Cao Cao and Nobunaga mixed up, lol.
Yeah... I actually appreciate the later DW games for making him a surprisingly multidimensional character.
He does brutal acts. But he genuinely cares for his troops and people. You can actually get the sense that, he's doing brutal things for the greater good.
Though, I do have to dock some points from DW. Since they paint Liu Bei as this virtuous saint.... like Ieyasu, he is ABSOLUTELY NOT AT ALL. He and his troops did some awful things. And fiction likes to gloss over this fact.
Not to mention how Romance of the Three Kingdoms propped up Guan Yu so heavily that he became the Chinese God of War, even though IRL Guan Yu was apparently a terrible general whose major "accomplishments" were either made up or were actually done by someone else.
There's a less popular and low-budget series about "The Three Kingdoms" where Liu Bei is depicted as a conniving and scheming a**hole. 😂
Ironically, the one source I think gets Nobunaga LESS Flanderized? Of all things, KAMEN RIDER. Nobunaga has had four major appearences, and while some fall into the brutal warlord view, they also give service to the totallity of him.
The first, a Humoculous powered by Desire Alchemy. He has a desire for power but is quick to learn, manifests that power to take over a company, seeks out vengence on a decendent of Akechi Mitsuhide - but at the same time said descendent reminds him of a dancer he loved who his desire made him want her to be with him, and when he has a talk with his first friend in this life - the Rider of the series - he goes and heals up the woman who got injured in his rage, realizing he was too focused on his desires before being forced into a berserker state. Even when he's in the process of dying after being beaten, his last request is for the woman to be sent a flower - far from the monster a lot of shows depict him as.
The second was an alternate universe counterpart who was a warlord. When under attack from an unstoppable foe, his primary goal is one of his underlings escaping when the writing is on the wall, sacrificing himself in what was probably allusion to said death by Mitsuhide.
The third? A series focusing on the power ups being the spirits of Luminaries of the past. He was one of the main 15 Luminaries, notable figures of history, and his main weapon is the Rifle - mainly as they had used Musashi for swords. While the spirits don't play major parts, of note is that Nobunaga is portrayed mostly in a heroic light, used by an Anti-Hero Kamen Rider at first, then when that one fell under mind control, he represented the three spirits of that rider who teamed up with the main hero. And keeping in mind, neither Hideyoshi nor Ieyasu get a spot in the initial line up, only being super relevant at a later point where the three make a super mode as the Unifiers.
And the fourth... Ahem. The fourth suggests the historical Nobunaga was actually a time travelling Kamen Rider who took up his mantle while the actual figure was a bit of a doofus. It's meant for comedy.
where ??? 000 movies ??
@@rinaldo7618 respectively, the first is the W/OOO movie war. The second is the Wizard/Gaim one. The third one is Kamen Rider Ghost as a whole. And the fourth is Zi-O's Movie Over Quartzer.
Your description of Hideyoshi actually reminds of his interpretation in Onimusha: Dawn of Dreams. I don't remember the story too well having not played it in a while, but through the first half of the game, Hideyoshi is built up as the main antagonist who was senselessly killing countless by sending Genma (essentially zombies) on unsuspecting villages in the name of unifying japan, and even mentions the murder of Hidetsugu if i recall correctly. That said, I feel I remember they did the whole "He was possessed" thing and was never actually bad to make way to the actual main antagonist, but still sounds like closer portrayal to what you described in history.
I wouldn't write off Fate Nabu as even from my limited experience with that version of them from FGO, I know that they are a strong willed person that will do what needs to be done to accomplish thier goal even if those things aren't necessarily looked apon in the best way. That and things like Nabu's skills such as Innocent Monster which is based on negative stigmas that history imprinted on them and they inprinted onto themselves in some situations. Others like Vladd III, Hans Christian Anderson and Salieri have that skill as well which represents negative things that history has done and has perceived them as. Also Fate Nabu is someone who has learned from their past mistakes and points out the flaws and mistakes of their successors and previous enemies and thier wrong doings. Fate also has lots of good depictions of characters like Miyamoto Musashi, Senji Muramasa, and Sakamoto Ryoma. Gender bending aside (at least for Musashi) they are great depictions that showcase great what ifs like Musashi not writing his famous book and not achieving his goal or more accurate to history like like Sakamoto Ryoma being a reformist that got killed before they were able to see any changes they helped to enact.
They did a shocking amount of justice to Gilles de Rais/Bluebeard too, it's easy to get hung up on the rule 34 bait designs but the characterizations are often surprisingly good.
While it's hard to really call any of the three "moral", one thing I've thought is that Nobunaga would probably be the most personable of the three unifiers given how casual he could be with some of his subordinates.
When it comes to recent depictions of Nobunaga, have you heard of:
Sengoku Komachi Kurotan
A time travel Light Novel (and Manga adaptation) that has (thanks to a CZcamsr named Meti that reviewed the manga version) a pretty good interpretation of him.
Not demonized, but also not hero worshipped, but instead going for a Nobunaga that is more of an opportunist that he supposedly was in real life.
Ah yes, judging historical figures by modern moral standards. What could possibly go wrong... Also Ieyasu wasn't the one who closed off the country, on the contrary he promoted foreign trade with his red seal ship system and Japanese merchants were very present at SEA and even India during his reign and until the the mid 30s. Even during the Sakoku period they still traded with their neighbors and with the Netherlands. But anyways Sakoku isn't a bad policy in itself, the tokugawa government just took too long to end the policy.
The image of Hideyoshi in mass media is so funny to me because i first heard about him during my Korean history lectures and so i got to know him as a mass murderer and invader before i met him in pop culture and the difference is hilarious. Even my bachelor thesis is about his invasion on Korea so this topic os close to my heart ❤️ it was fun to learn more about Nobunaga and Tokugawa from this video, thank you!
They likely had to do some unsavory things on the way, but those 3 are the ones that helped bring Japan together. Their lasting impact on the country was definitely a good thing even if it wasn’t always pretty
They did unite the island... but I'm pretty sure invading a neighboring non-hostile nation, slaughtering a previously accepted religion, and putting up an iron curtain that caused both a civil war and made the US knock on Japan's door was definitely not necessary to unite their country.
@@markguyton2868the Korea thing was messed up, the Christianity thing I’m not that mad about considering Europe had a habit of spreading Jesus and genocide to countries that didn’t fall in line. China would end up getting invaded and had to deal with a guy claiming to be Jesus’ brother in a stupid rebellion that got 20 million people killed. Japan got lucky that The US was the first to come knocking for trade had it been the Brits or the French, Japan would have been annexed.
They literally culled libertarianism out of the country, giving rise to the most evil empire the world has ever seen.
Hideyoshi was definitely a douchebag but the others differently did what they could to bring an end to the chaos even if their motive was power for themselves. Peace is a good thing is the best you can ask for at that time
@@markguyton2868 so you think 250 year of peace was an bad thing, also theirs's an difference between knocking on their door, and forcing them to open up, and conquering, do you know why? it's because Japan also had guns and cannons, just slightly outdated, and you're seriously blaming him for the ending of the 250 year peace, like the civil war caused by the US using guns ships to open them were his fault, and in his time.
Looking at the facts, it makes sense that a man in an era of war would be brutal, just like everyone else.
Then theres FGO Nobunaga.
Washija!!
But the creators actually gave so much detail on FGO Nobunaga.
Especially her demon king version.
18:45 Worth brining up, but from what I’ve gathered, the Sakoku wasn’t really Ieyasu’s idea, because it was his grandson Tokugawa Iemitsu that enacted that policy (Not to mention that the Sakoku began in 1633, and Ieyasu died 1616). That not to say he had no influence in the events that led to the Sakoku, but at the very least, that particular wrongdoing can’t be blamed squarely on Ieyasu.
Just to be clear though, I don’t think that error detracts from the point of the video. Regardless of if the Sakoku was his idea or not, everything else he did makes it clear that Ieyasu wasn’t the golden boy fiction likes to paint him as.
Nobunaga planted the rice.
Toyotomi harvested the rice.
But it was Tokugawa that cooked and ate the rice...
Good analogy
@@johnny_boi5456 it's not mine. From what I understand, it's a saying used in Japanese history.
@@tomareani512 ah I see
It does sum up their relationship quite well@@tomareani512
The proper saying goes as "Nobunaga harvested the crops, Hideyoshi kneaded the dough, Ieyasu ate the cake".
Thank you for this! I've found Nobunaga such a fascinating historical figure ever since I took a few Japanese history classes in college. I have a few things I'd like to add, but I unfortunately don't have sources. Please keep that in mind and bear with me, and if anyone can confirm or disprove me I'd appreciate it.
First, on the subject of Mt. Hiei, there is a story I was told about the last straw that made Nobunaga snap. As you mentioned, he had been sieging the temple for a long time. Well, one of his commanders was struggling elsewhere, so he had to withdraw troops from the siege to reinforce them. As he was leaving, Nobunaga sent a missive to Enryaku-ji saying basically, "Look, I have business to attend to. Don't attack us as we're leaving, or you'll regret it." Obviously they attacked him, so after that other area was stabilized, he came back and the rest is history.
The other story I was told takes place not long after he rose to power. I was was able to find a little bit about this on Wikipedia, so I feel a bit more comfortable about its validity. One of Nobunaga's brothers was part of a plot to overthrow him as head of the Oda clan. The plot was thwarted, and, at the behest of the brother's mother, Nobunaga spared him. However, it later came to light that said brother was still plotting against him, and Nobunaga wasn't gonna give him another chance and had him killed.
I like these stories personally because, combined with other stories about him, it paints Nobunaga as a man who tries to be reasonable, but is VERY no nonsense and will not put up with people's bullcrap.
Not gonna lie, I had my suspicions with Nobunaga when playing Nioh 2. You basically get to see him as a pretty chill guy. The sequel to me cleared up any sort of idea of him being this Demon King media keeps depicting him. MEANWHILE FOR HIDEYOSHI, even from the beginning I knew this man would be up to something. Granted the guy was a lovable trickster until he embraced the evil and caused so much tragedy. So hearing this, I’m not fucking surprised one bit. XD
While yes Nioh 2 does do this fictionalize things like Naurto, I could see the hints then believe Nobunaga was evil and Hideyoshi was a goober.
my favorite part of nioh one is he's summoned fights you deems your good enough to defend japan calls the villian an idiot for thinking he'd help destroy it and leaves
I think Hideyoshi's doubts were what made him vulnerable to Kashin Koji's possession in Nioh 2, rather than just "embracing evil". Hideyoshi's depiction in Nioh 2 (and somewhat in Nioh 1) is rather a complex one, and at the very end he redeemed himself. I love even how Maria made the same mistake Kelley did with Nobunaga's resurrection, having only heard the misdeeds they cause rather than considering at least once they were also human.
People have a serious issue with Separating Fiction from Reality, but thats not the fault of Fiction Writers. Blame falls on those who refuse to learn History. You cannot force Stupid People to BE Smart.
Hmmm Oda Nobunaga is not THAT badly depicted in SW or Nobunaga's Ambition. Far from he tends to get a lot of credit. They do tend to give him the Darth Vader arc with the focus on the Mount Hiei stuff. The over the top villain stuff is usually present in other media. Tokugawa is very frequently depicted as a schemer and opportunist in games. Both in the Koeie games and media like Kessen. Though both the Oda and Tokugawa depictions actually depict it partially as a positive thing. 'The monkey'. Yeah.. can't really say anything about that one.
It's kinda funny If you look at the historical parallels Oda is very much Julius Caesar and Tokugawa the Octavian/Augustus. Oda did the legwork but there was still too much chaos. But he got it all rolling through cunning, charisma, strength of will, opportunism, ambition and a little bit of idealism. While Tokugawa is more the statesman than conqueror. The man surrounding himself with experts while he himself was the reformer. And the patient powerbroker.
Oda and Cao Cao have very similar tropes regarding their depiction.
Ironic since in my old class on Chinese history Cao Cao is the one that actually gets some good stuff attributed to him that had lasting impact unlike the Wu & Shu factions.
As I understand it, the rejection of Christianity wasn't just "can't serve your lord if you serve your *Lord* first", but rather a fear of Western power. Which does make sense, since sadly when European kings were expanding their influence they often sent Jesuit missionaries with such ideas, since a Catholic church would answer to the Pope, meaning that messages sent from their ports to Japan would carry a great deal of weight. So, not so much "can't serve your lord if you're serving God" and more "can't serve your lord if your highest authority is a European man".
There was some sound logic for rejecting Christianity, but what they did went so effing overboard, even my stomach turns thinking about it.
@@KuroNoTenno no other option, you think Catholics were peaceful? the reason they didn't retaliate is because of Japan had guns and cannons, and alot of them, plus halfway around the world.
@@stefthorman8548 There is always an option where you don't cut open bellies of pregnant women.
You either die a hero or live long enough to become an anime demon-god.
With all due respect to Gaijin Sengoku Basara’s last release was 8 years ago and iirc Samurai Heroes came out in 2008 in America…so while I totally get his annoyance with the Bishounen protagonist transformation Ieyasu got it’s far from this…universal trope.
I think Nioh's and Samurai Warriors' portrayal is also way to positive.
@@KuroNoTenno Genuinely? I admit I kinda took Nioh's take on Ieyasu as more nuanced. Like the game does make it clear that Ieyasu's a ruthless schemer and he even considers it wise to kill off William, requiring him to go into hiding, with Ieyasu ultimately deciding not to look too hard for William. But Samurai Warriors I can understand that take. Especially in SW 5 where they play up him being a naive newcomer as a warlord and very much a younger pretty boy.
@@Neo232100 Nioh's Ieyasu is still portrayed as having good intentions even if he's willing to "play dirty".
First time I heard of Tokugawa was in the 2003 TMNT series.
Shredder exclaimed that it was him who "conquered Japan and gave rise to the Tokugawa clan"
Yea, they must be bad if The Shredder and the Foot Ninja allied with him
I always crack up when I hear Shredder say that. Shredder was present at Sekigahara.
@@Birdhouseart well that shredder was an long lived utrom....which I didn't love. But then it's revealed the OG Oruki Saki was a human ninja possessed by the Shredder, a demonic tengu.....that show was wild
This actually implies that the Shredder was Hattori Hanzo, and that's kind of cool.
Probably my favorite depiction of these guys is Nioh and Nioh 2, although even that is romanticized a bit.
Nobunaga is a an ambitious but ultimately fair leader who encourages the main character have goals beyond just serving him.
Hideyoshi is a goofy guy who uses words and manipulation to put himself in favorable positions, but gets downright brutal once he gets a taste of power.
And Ieyasu is a man trying to unite Japan under his rule and and treats everyone as a tool for his goals, not exactly because he wants to, but because unifying Japan is so important he feels he has no choice.
Big fan of Fate Nobu especially in Type Redline. Also wouldn't exactly call her a loli, writing Fate Nobu off as just fanservice is a shame given how well shes written both as a joker character and a serious, threatening one.
Agreed. Calling her a loli is just reductive, in FGO she's a fun young woman who's not meant to be taken seriously until she does something actually badass, and in Redline she's actually very intimidating.
Fate is one of the franchise you should never trust Gajin Goomba to be critical about. His Shuten Douji video had already said more about his approach toward Fate more than I can.
Yeah she is not a Loli that goes to shuten
Nobu Chan is really well written and cool while also being cute
@@owo4288 what did he say about our wonderful drunk aoi yuuki design
@@crawlingboy Basically a white washed version in the sense of brutality and is an extension to Kintoki. He also ignore Ibuki Douji entirely.
Don't forget that with the Meiji Restoration came the rise of Zaibatsu basically a select few rich families given subsidized government money to rapidly modernize.
These Zaibatsu became one of if not THE leading factors in Imperial Japan's rise and pursuit of war in WW2.
So yea Tokugawa arguably railroaded Japan into WW2.
Eh, while his actions did set Japan on that road, there were centuries to course correct. There were a number of alternate paths where Japan didn't become a monster feared across Asia and ally of one of the worst monsters Europe has yet seen. From democratic reformers somehow winning the Boshin War, to civilian government actually holding fast in the face of militarism instead of stepping down for perceived failures to the emperor putting his foot down faster and firmer with bringing his military to heel.
So Tokugawa can hardly take much credit for that fiasco. Some yes, but there are a lot of other moving or static players that could be blamed too, and they had better perspective on the situation as it was happening or approaching.
Japan: the only country so evil you can nuke them and their own people say "Yeah that's fair."
Orka NobuDAKAA is just utter brilliance.
Great video, Goomba! We should all remember the old adage "Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it." I agree that parodies and jokes can be entertaining fiction, and that we should all strive to look in to the actual events events of what happened. Doing so gives us both important lessons and a greater apreciation for the fictions we enjoy.
in defense of FGO's Nobbu, she herself acknowledges she's a gag character and that the REAL Nobunaga could kick her ass.
On one hand I'm surprised it took you this long to make a video about the three unifiers of Japan, but it's a good video and a good message to remember the historical people for who they are by reading history.
Regarding the Goemon plays, while certain sources says that Hideyoshi adopted Goemon's baby boy, other sources said that he had the baby be boiled together with his father during Goemon's execution.
Thank god someone said it, because it's been a thing I'm noticing for a while too, I started out as the sort of person GG describes in the video, but slowly learning about the nuances of the history I got to pretty much where he is now.
And ironically, Fate STILL has one of the most accurate depictions of Nobunaga, yeah they can be goofy, but that's because the character started in a literal gag manga, but because they're such a popular character, they keep getting brought back, and each time a serious story pops up, you see the depiction of the demon king Nobunaga, so in the end, you kinda end up with what Nobunaga was described as in total, someone who was enterprising and pioneering, a very effective leader, but can be a ruthless monster when they want to be.
An old phrase that I will always remember, those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. Thank you for shedding light on these two I hear so little about 😃
But hear me out. Japan painting Nobunaga as somewhere between Skeletor and the Devil is kinda funny.
Wasn’t Satsuki from Kill La Kill get inspiration from Nobunaga and she’s one of the *good guys?*
Hideyoshi also decided to take power from Nobukatsu, and then went to war against Tokugawa and Nobukatsu. Tokugawa was already shogun when the event you are talking about happened, so he wasn’t committed to Hideyori at that point. Hideyori was also staring to build his gun stores and army size at this point, with the only intention being war with Tokugawa. Yes the inscription thing happened but there was a few little things that led to both of their battles.
We need to also make sure we do this for our own public figures, both historical and current. Trust me, making both Biden and Trump into caricatures and ignoring their own histories isn't doing us ANY favors.
This is similar to the Three Kingdoms era with Cao Cao. People mostly view him as evil while Liu Bei is the most virtuous and benevolent due to pop culture and the many versions of the novel Romance of the Three Kingdoms. I enjoy the many forms of media. It's nice seeing your analysis of the Three Great Unifiers in this aspect too.
IDk Gaijin. The way you framed Nobunaga makes it seem you are defending his actions as morally right more than military necessity for a totalitarian ruler. Don't get me wrong, I agree that Nobunaga is overly demonized, but I just get a little uncomfortable with the "what you think was going to happen", which is a phrase that we need to be careful using when talking about violence inflicted on someone else. Please don't take this as a criticism, just a comment on the way you framed and expressed your point, one that I agree with
Commodore Perry: I've brought my F.R.I.E.N.D.S. Also Gunboats.
Tokugawa: *GODDAMNIT*
Rise of the Ronin taught me that Perry had 2 phases and a mean command grab.
I appreciate the deep dive into a relatively unknown aspect of history but, as someone who translates stories from the Konjaku Monogatari Shu and puts them up here, I can't help but be a bit disappointed at yet another video about the Sengoku/Edo periods. You said it yourself, the Sengoku is easily the most adapted period of Japanese history. And while that's understandable, it's still a bit frustrating that everyone in the west just ignores the rich offerings of other periods, especially the Heian period. Well, I suppose that's why I do what I do. Regardless, I appreciate the video. It's always nice to see someone break unrealistic stereotypes.
Indeed. I wouldn't mind hearing more about the Tale of Genji or the Gempei War, or heck, even something like the Tale of the Bamboo Cutter.
The absolute shameful behaviour of those three have deep repercussions in Japanese society to this day. It's a nice thing to have all three men put into context!
Not worse than the behaviour of other nations and leaders in history and the repercussions we have to this day because of that.
@@Dreamfox-df6bg Trying to change unconfortable subjects, aren't you?
@@spacewargamer4181 While I enjoy getting into Japanese history, I have no horse in this game. It's not personal for me.
But you call that less uncomfortable?
Looking around the world and see the messy repercussions of people that never took the long view into account and the inability from other people to learn from that?
That's anything but less uncomfortable.
@@Dreamfox-df6bg Aja
@@Dreamfox-df6bg Right. But this video isn't about other countries, it's about Japan. Its like you screaming 'feminism' when the topic is discussing slavery.
When it comes to Hideyoshi, I remember well a game by the name of "Onimusha: Dawn of Dreams" which was my first time learning about this period of Japanese history. It does not shy away from painting all of the big bois as monsters both metaphorically and literally, the main character even has traumas about his time in Korea.
Safe to say, I've always been kinda iffy on the narutozation of many of these historical figures because of it, and I'm glad people like you can bring a spotlight to the fact that history is written by the victorious and whoever is writing down oral traditions which often only contain grains of truth rather than the full truth as it's often not as good of a story.
I feel like you went way too deep on the downsides of Tokugawa’s reign without looking at how much it improved the quality of life in Japan. There’s a reason the Edo period is looked upon favorably in hindsight.
honestly I would love to see Macbeth retelling with Nobunaga as Macbeth
There's a slightly similar concept to this with the Akira Kurosawa film "Throne of Blood" which reimagines the story of Macbeth within an unspecified part of Japan's feudal age. Though not following Nobunaga, it's as close to the concept as you can get.
I always saw nobunaga similar to vlad the impaler guys who I would best describe as intensly hated men who did overall good through violent and extreme acts that were honest about it both men made jokes in character of being evil and semi courted the image (I know vlad did oda not sure but at least he didn't seem to care) but It still comes as they owned up to what they did without regretting doing it
I'm suddenly put to mind that Tokugawa must have been part of the inspiration behind Clavell's novel "Shogun": a ruler dies, leaving his son to be overseen by 5 daimiyos, only to see their oath of loyalty devolve into a power struggle, with a castle, some Christians, and the fate of Japan's future in isolation involved.
Interesting to see, since the chief daimiyo character -- Toranaga -- clearly has to be the analog to Tokugawa. Save that in Toranaga's case, he's seen as a master manipulator and strategist: thinking many steps ahead of his foes, and using people to gain the thing he wanted most: The Shogunate. At times you can find Toranaga as a likable, if at times harsh ruler, but clearly never portrayed on the level of Tokugawa.
20:32 In fate franchise SHES NOT A LOLI
Abraham Lincoln only wore the hat 1 time.
Also, I am pretty sure Orochi from One Piece is based on Hideyoshi.
For that fate comment I expected more from you as a researcher that you would actually take it into consideration that fate version of nobunaga is actually a pretty good betrayal not to mention that nobunaga is a fan favorite of the franchise both from writers and fans so you straight up attacking her is a quite a disappointment.
he never does more than skin deep research into fate.
The guy isn't a fan of Fate in general. Just look at his Shuten Douji's video. He pretty much skimmed through her profile and view her as just an extension of Kintoki and is a white washed version. Shimosa pretty much prove how wrong that is. Not to mention he doesn't even mention Ibuki Douji eventhough it's a major part of her identity. All of his criticism toward her is more suited toward Ibaraki since aside from her debut event like 9 years ago and maybe Babylonia, she's just a joke character.
A manga that depicts Nobunage quite accurate, I think, is "Sengoku Komachi Kuroutan".
Good video; in Pokemon Conquest Nobunaga is more sympathetic.
That reminds of how Vlad Tepes is portraited: a national hero in Romania but most of the time a bloodthirsty monster in other parts of the world thanks to Bram Stoker & the Dracula influence
Also, a small correction: Fate Nobunaga is not a loli; researching Fate isn't that difficult.
I do get your point.. but you got Nobunaga and Hideyoshi from the Musou series, but Tokugawa from the Basara series... Designs from these two aren't comparable. I mean, Honda Tadakatsu is basically a gundam in the Basara series.. it's very over the top. 😅😂
Ironically, it was the narutofication of many old figures of japan that got me into learning about them in the first place. Learning about Jiraya, the name sasuke Orichimaru and tsunade got me into japanese mythology and history. This, smt, persona, and even a few anime of girlified historiclal figures got me into mythology as a whole and was a big reason i got into your channel all these years ago, so while i 100% understand the issues that narutofication can have on history I feel that anyone who will be interested in this stuff is more likely to be emboldened by these portrayals , as seeds in the while don't tend to grow from random drops of rain then concentrated watering cans. Anyway great video.
Nobunaga being a warlord willing to commit heinous acts for the sake of unifying and empowering his people has the potential of making him an AMAZING Anti Hero or even a Main Protagonist! Yeah he's made some HEINOUS deeds known and did kinda have some beef with Buddhism, but at the end of the day it was for a stable control over a land plagued by classism and infighting. He had to be the scariest mofo in ALL OF JAPAN.
On that note, what's your favorite Nobunaga interpretation? If ya hate the Loli one, what about the one from Basara?
I refuse to believe that Date Masamune didn't wield six swords, and didn't ride a motorcycle horse.
i've been sayin this for years. nobunaga was essentially a feudal era punk before punk was invented(that's how punk he is). he was open minded, despised nobility, and fairly meritocratic. i often wonder how japan could've turned out unified under nobunaga
Honestly. . . Hearing about Hideyoshi's establishment of the Bateren-tsuiho-rei; I HAVE ABSOLUTE CONTEMPT TOWARDS THIS MASS MURDERING MONSTER!!
Oh my god, not even one full minute in, and I'm already nostalgic for the Onimusha series.
Hey hey Gaijin, don’t knock fate nobu till you’ve tried her. The Gudaguda events are fun and her run in the currently ongoing Redline is great.
IKR
Look I LOVE Gaijin but the fact that he seems to take Fate at face value (like with Shuten and raikou) makes me mad
@@andrewgifford1007
While I agree that FATE is a lot deeper than what it appears at face value from the little I’ve dug into, that sadly doesn’t stop the greater effects of “Naruto-fication.” For every 1 FATE fan that looks into the deeper meanings behind the series, there are at least 2 fans who are in it just for the waifus. And you can see the effect happening in real time with internet search engines of how typing in the name shows the caricature first.
Do I think that GG should take a deeper look into FATE? Yes. But I also believe that whether the franchise intended to or not, it has affected/ distorted the way people view the actual historical figure.
@@J-manli Every popular portrayal will do that to historical figures, regardless of the accuracy of the portryals.
I feel its unfair to make it seems as if that's FATE's fault when that's just how people work, if a new work shows of a historical character and gains enough popularity it will replace the person in the eyes of popular media.
Ironically enough the 'Naruto-fication' is often what causes people to gain interest in the original historical piece, in much the same way stories inspired of featuring characters from classical myths/literature push people into reading the inspirations.
I find Nobunaga to be very fascinating, and much more than just a ruthless warlord. However, just a few corrections:
First about Nobunaga
- When Nobunaga burned down Ishiyama-Honganji, there was no one inside. This is because a surrender had been arranged under imperial orders. The defenders surrendered, and as per agreement, Nobunaga allowed the defenders to leave the monastery with their lives. He burned the monastery to ensure he wouldn't have to deal with it in the future (gotta give him credit, it had taken 10 years to finally conquer that place.) However, the other two sieges of fortified monasteries did not end so peacefully. First, Nagashima was completely burnt with people still inside, leaving no survivors. The burning of Enryakuji was similar, in the sense that the entire monastery was burnt with the defenders inside. No one survived, not even civilians. This particularly looked bad for Nobunaga, especially since the mountain Enryakuji sat atop of, Mt. Hiei, was considered a sacred mountain. This event was what sparked Takeda Shingen to send the letter to Nobunaga (Shingen was related by marriage to Honganji Kenyo, the son of Honganji Shonyo.) In general, the burning of Mt. Hiei and Enryakuji was seen as a very controversial thing, even among the many controversial actions of Nobunaga.
About Toyotomi Hideyoshi:
- Like you mentioned, the idea for the invasion of Korea may have come from Nobunaga, but we don't know if it really was just a joke. Regardless, the reasons why Hideyoshi would proceed with his campaign are still debated. One of it is that Hideyoshi wanted to give something for the warrior class to do now that the lands were at peace, and you know, may as well conquer China to become emperor of China while you're at it (yes, the goal all along was China, not Korea). Hideyoshi was very afraid of his family losing power after his death, so he tried everything he could to build up the legitimacy of his regime. Becoming emperor of China seemed to him a worthwhile enough attempt.
- Hideyoshi's nephew, Hidetsugu, was executed, and once again, the reasons for it are debated. For example, Hidetsugu wished to overthrow Hideyoshi when Hideyori was born, out of fear of losing his position (by this point, Hideyoshi was the Retired Kanpaku, with the official Kanpaku being Hidetsugu, even though Hideyoshi still had the real power). Hideyoshi supposedly learned of this and had him executed. This is just one of the theories, with the other indeed being Hideyoshi wanting to remove Hidetsugu out of the picture.
- Hideyoshi was never Shogun. Before the Tokugawa Shogunate, there was the Ashikaga Shogunate. When Ashikaga Yoshiaki was exiled from the capital by Nobunaga, he established his seat at Tomo Palace in Mori clan territory. While he had no real power, technically, he conducted his "shogunate" from there. Ashikaga Yoshiaki even managed to outlive Hideyoshi. Only Minamoto descendants could become Shogun. This is also the reason Nobunaga never became Shogun, as he was of Taira descent; so Nobunaga only ruled under the title of Udaijin, and posthumously, he was given the title of Daijo Daijin. Hideyoshi too acquired the title of Daijo Daijin and also Kanpaku. Hideyoshi likely could not become Shogun, as he himself had been a peasant, and those he married were not related to the Minamoto by blood. He married Yodo-dono (Yodo-dono was daughter of Azai Nagamasa and Oichi; Nagamasa being of Fujiwara descent and Oichi being of Taira descent) and Nene (who also was of Taira descent by blood, but was adopted into the Toki clan, which was of Minamoto descent.)
- You could argue that Hideyoshi's first plotting move was using Nobunaga's infant grandson, Hidenobu (which was strategically named as such by Hideyoshi after Nobunaga's death) as a stepping stone for his rise to rulership.
- The Sword Hunt Decree by Hideyoshi was a means to pacify the country. Think about it, Hideyoshi fought besides Nobunaga in quelling the many of Ikko-Ikki rebellions throughout the years. With such experience behind him, of course he would disarm the people to prevent more rebellions from happening. Rebellions were way too prone to happening back then, and this was a good measure to reduce their number. It is a valid measure to fix an age of chaos, and if we're going to give Nobunaga a pass for his brutal measures for having been justified, then we should do the same for Hideyoshi. Certainly, a heavily armed population is a destabilizing factor. His other measures, such a restricting travel, were also for this purpose. More control to establish order.
More in the replies.
Lastly, about Tokugawa Ieyasu:
- Ieyasu was not responsible for the Sakoku Decree. Yes, he limited foreign influence, and his son did as well. However, it was Ieyasu's grandson, Iemitsu, who truly closed the country - this was followed after the Shimabara Rebellion, which was seen as a Christian rebellion (it was actually more complex than that, but the rebels kinda united under the banner of Christianity). In general, foreigners were seen as a destabilizing factor, especially when they brought religion. Just like the Toyotomi, the Tokugawa were very concerned with pacifying the country and ending the chaos. Of course they would try to remove as many destabilizing factors. You could see those 200+ years of a closed country as a rot, but in Tokugawa's eyes, they brought 200+ years of peace to a country that just had been through 150 years of constant warfare. It's not Ieyasu's nor his grandson's fault that Mathew Perry came two centuries later flexing his own power to open up Japan's markets - that fault lies on America, not the Tokugawa, and Perry came in at particularly vulnerable time - none of this is Ieyasu's fault. In fact, the country wasn't completely closed, as Dutch and Chinese merchants were allowed to trade at the port of Dejima in Nagasaki at certain points of the year. Even the Tokugawa knew they couldn't close completely, and Japan did learn a lot from Dutch Studies throughout those years, which included a lot of medicinal knowledge and other technologies. Yes, the country did not develop nearly as fast as the others, but it wasn't really a complete stagnation either.
- You mixed up the events of the Sekigahara Campaign and the Sieges of Osaka. Those two events have a 15 year gap. In the years that followed Hideyoshi's death (1598), Ieyasu went against his oath to the Toyotomi, which resulted in the Sekigahara Campaign, with many daimyo taking his side. The country was divided into two, which culminated in the Battle of Sekigahara (1600), which Ieyasu won. But this war was not so much against Toyotomi Hideyori himself, more so his supporters, led by Ishida Mitsunari; after all, Hideyori was only 2 years old at this time, and was of no immediate threat to Ieyasu. Just like Hideyoshi usurped Nobunaga's infant grandson without killing him, so too would Ieyasu usurp Hideyori. Ieyasu would become Shogun in 1603 (as he, allegedly, was of Minamoto descent). However Ieyasu only ruled as Shogun for 2 years, then retired and passed the title of Shogun to his son Tokugawa Hidetada. Ieyasu still had all the power, but he wanted Hidetada to learn to handle being a Shogun, so that after Ieyasu died, the country wouldn't fall into chaos again. The years passed, and indeed Ieyasu tried to cultivate good relations with Toyotomi Hideyori, now an adult still living in Osaka Castle. He married his daughter to Hideyori. Eventually the bell incident happened, and that's when Ieyasu went to war against Hideyori directly (this being in the winter of 1614). Yes, the bell incident was very much an opportunistic stretch by Ieyasu, but Ieyasu REALLY didn't want what happened to Hideyoshi happen to him. Ieyasu was very old by now, and his son Hidetada was unfit for war (as had been shown previously in the Sekigahara Campaign) - Ieyasu was very afraid of the country returning to chaos after his death and his family losing power, and Hideyori had actually surprised Ieyasu with his potential and competency - this added much to Ieyasu's worries; and since Hideyori would not formarly submit, Ieyasu used this big stretch from the bell of Hokoji as a justification to kill Hideyori and ensure no lingering threat for Hidetada. Osaka Castle fell in the summer siege in 1615, the last of Ieyasu's enemies had been vanquished. Ieyasu would die two years later in 1617 of natural causes, ensuring a long-lasting regime, with his descendants building upon the foundation he had laid for them.
Both Hideyoshi and Ieyasu had something very much in common - they took strong forceful measures to make sure the land would not fall back into chaos. Some worked, others did not, and both tried to learn from the mistakes of their predecessor. Hideyoshi learned from Nobunaga's mistakes, and Ieyasu learned from Hideyoshi's mistakes. No one in this story is a saint, as rarely anyone in history is. However, Hideyoshi and Ieyasu are no worse than Nobunaga. They are all just as ruthless, brutal and plotting as each other. Japan was a land of turmoil, warfare and chaos; and it took a lot of brutality and cunning to bring it back to peace. All of those were qualities very much present among many samurai warlords in Japan at the time. Nobunaga is remembered as the "Demon King" because that's how much infamy his deeds had acquired. Because unlike Hideyoshi or Ieyasu, I'd say Nobunaga was the most honest about his own actions. I say this as my own opinion, but Nobunaga is the one who didn't bother with hiding many of his brutal actions and just embraced them. If anything, his "Demon King" reputation did serve a purpose, as a way to attempt to intimidate his enemies into submission. Nobunaga was quite the unconventional man, so it wouldn't really surprise me if that were indeed the case. And well, after his sarcastic remark towards Shingen, it's no wonder he would be looked as this "Demon King" by history, which at times so much likes to exaggerate events. Media is simply trying to portray this reputation, and it is as much a part of Nobunaga as his true history. This reputation is part of what makes him so cool and unique. He is like a force of nature who brought change to a chaotic land, and arguably one of the most important figures in Japanese history. If you ask me, the Nobunaga's Ambition series has some of the best depictions of Nobunaga in all the samurai media I've consumed.
Sengoku Basara is gem and is perfect in every way and nobody can tell me different. I love how crazy and weird it is😂
Really enjoyed this video as a fan of the Musou genre. Thanks man for putting this together!
In a way the people of Japan should be frustrated with the depictions of Ieyasu and hideyoshi in the media (I know it's up to them to decide that though). It's getting farther and farther into the past so things get twisted, but those depictions are basically propaganda.