Honda's aborted 1999 F1 test car project
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- čas přidán 11. 06. 2024
- Honda made headlines in F1 at the end of the 1990s when it declared its intention to return in a full works capacity for the first time since 1992. After talks with Jordan broke down, it set up a test team to run a car in early 1999. The tests were promising - too promising in the eyes of some - but just a couple of months later Honda had halted the project and signed up to return with BAR instead. In this video we look at everything that went on behind the scenes in great detail, and the impact Honda's decision has had on F1 to this day.
BRING BACK V10s PODCAST: www.spreaker.com/episode/4040...
All 1999 test car images kindly provided by Honda
00:00 Intro
00:53 Talks with Jordan
02:28 A full works team?
03:30 Testing in public
04:52 Cracks appear
06:46 Change of plans
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I think Honda not staying for 2009 will be one of the biggest "what ifs" in F1 history. That decision has directly led to 7 Mercedes powered WDC and WCC doubles.
They couldn't have developed their engines even if they stayed
And Ross brawn said that they mostly wouldn't have won the chips that year with honda because the Mercedes engine was better in terms of placement in the chassis, which improved their double diffuser. But yea you would also have to consider the Honda money for their budget would have helped them develop the car through the year.
indeed very interesting... this would've forced merc to stick to mclaren or maybe take over sauber from bmw... maybe merc wouldn't be in f1 anymore at this stage
Nick Fry in his book Drive, Survive, Win clearly states that Honda would certainly not have won the world championship in 2009, would they have stayed in F1. While the car was much better than the 2007 and 2008 contenders, the Mercedes engine was superior to the Honda in terms of reliability and in making the double diffuser work.
@@prathishsahadevan988 this is not true in the beyond the grid podcast he said that the aerodynamics of the car we're so far ahead with the doppel diffuser that the engine didnt matter
Jos Verstappen thinks that the Honda decision not to go ahead, broke his career. Although he also said he was compensated well, by Honda. Ironically his son, Max Verstappen is now driving Honda engines again.
Jos was working with HRD though. Max is working with the main organization.
Ya and he hates it
because jos was an amazing driver before honda right
@@danielstark7239 Amazing in some races. Amazing enough to be test driver for Honda F1 aspirations. But not amazing enough to be invited for a top team, I guess.
@@ronaldderooij1774 because he was available not because he was amazing, max is so much better then his dad
A Japanese manufacturer should be on the f1 grid. That's just so much more than a Red Bull or a Alpha Tauri team which does not manufacture any road cars.
That's why Eddie Jordan is being so salty about Toto Wolff
Why?
@@bfapple eddie couldve been part of the current mercedes team, if things work out in his way
a That’s a very very long stretch of the imagination......
@@bfapple he failed to effectively manage his team
arnold kamau The later years yeah, but he sure did a fantastic job setting the team up. As evidenced by the fact it still exists today and never shut down for good.
As a Jordan fan at the time, I always felt a bit of betrayal when Honda backed BAR, despite Jordan performing better with the same engines.
Their comment about Jordan being a bigger name than Honda does make some sense of it though, as it could overshadow their marketing potential.
They could call the team "Honda" and add "Jordan F1" underneath in small letters. And Eddie would sell most of the shares. Everyone would have won. Eddie even took a Japanese into the team in 2002...
Absolutely same
its because of the money and Villeneuve joining the team i guess, BAR gave Villeneuve a shit ton of money for him to joined the team and with a big money and the 1997 champion as the driver i think that is the reason why Honda chose BAR over Jordan back then.
Personally, I like how the current dominant team in F1 is a rebadged Tyrrell-Ilmor
yes, and they only have a different factory, different organization, a different concept, different employes, different drivers, and different engines, racing with different rules.
Thank you for realizing that even tho theres ALOT of articles on these type of cars that a VIDEO documenting the whole saga of something is alot easier to divulge. Every more "one off" car video you guys have done has taught me MILES more about them then just knowing about their existence
I always thought this was a cool car. Would loved to have seen it race, and I also feel sorry for Jordan as they were so good around this time
It appears that the issues with honda are the same as with Toyota. There was no single head to take charge of the operation and commit to a decision.
I came back here after the news of Honda quitting F1 after next season, which is a shame.
I am a Honda fan, but after working with a Japanese company I have to say in my personal experience, the Japanese (with all due respect) think far too highly and often of own their perspective on things to the detriment of the overall goal.
2:42 that quote sounds very similar to the mindset that Toyota had when they entered the sport making this the ”Toyota way”. That full Honda works team could have ended up with a very similar result that the Toyota one did. It seems that only Renault was a manufacturer that was able to have success in F1 during the 2000’s and even then the Renault works team seemed more like the old Benetton with the backing of Renault.
TheLeewi98 seems to be a common issue with the big manufacturers. Eddie Irvine said Jaguar (Ford) had the same clunky corporate mentality.
James Fleming Mercedes has been very clever learning from others mistakes.
@@TheLeewi98 This
Love your content The race, you inspired me to start my own youtube channel.
Thank you for motivation.
The Race has quickly become one of my favorite sources for F1 news. Thanks for the great content!
You guys are producing fantastic content, both video and written.
Wow this looks like a watercolor painting! 1:02
All I know is JB should of stayed at brawn / mec
awesome video, great work, love your work
Not sure the Honda story would have been different from the Toyota one. One thing is for sure: Jordan should have cashed out.
Great video guys....subscribed!👍😎🇦🇺
1:32 I SEE JOHN LENNON!!!
Imagine..
Japanese brands unfortunately don't seem to have what it takes to run a full works team on F1: the willingness to spend vast amounts of money on what might be a vanity project for several years before yielding consistent results.
The Honda powerplant was a boat anchor by 2008, staying would just have killed a great chassis. They should have come in direct when they intended, Harvey's death tragic to the whole thing.
Any chance of an alternative history video looking at what you think would have happened if Honda had joined in 2000 and/or not pulled out after 2008? I think that’d be quite interesting
Such great content thank you
I'd like to see a partnership between Honda and Mugen F1 again.
One thing I read seemed to suggest that it was the actual physical bulk and weight distribution of the, homologated, Honda engine that led to their poor performance and ultimate withdrawal. The wind tunnel and modelling said the car should handle well, Jenson and Rubins said the car handled badly and wouldn't take a set up. Honda bought time in Ferrari's wind tunnel as they assumed theirs was giving them bad data, that just confirmed that the car was good. Honda's board then withdrew Russ Brawn stuck a Mercedes engine in the back and the rest was history.
Interestingly both Brawn and Jenson have said that the double diffuser was originally being developed to try and cure the issues they had in '08 and make the car competitive. The engine change cured the handling issue and the double defuser became a huge advantage.
All I can say is Honda has a long history coming on and off F1, either as a team operation or engine manufacturer. And today's news that they are pulling off (again) at the end of 2021 proves it... again!
Great stuff! Thanks!
Honda litrally have the worst timed pull out in f1 ever, pull out sell the car to a team who used it to win both championships, whoever said that's enough probably lives with it to this day
No. They knew what they had. They couldn't stay because of the crisis. It really was this simple. You can't sell to your background (people in Japan, workers, etc.) that you fire thousands of people yet keep an F1 team running costing hundreds of millions.
@@djoetma wow must hurt even more for the guys who put all that hard work in building a masterpiece
@@bnice9810 Yes, I can only imagine. The project was done in three places, Dome and Tochigi in Japan and at Brackley. Stuff like double diffuser? Dome had that as well. And just like with the HR project from the 90s, they actually kept developing the car until after they made known they were going to leave (Jalopnik has pictures of the car in teh Dome windtunnel).
But especially in Japan, going against the interests of your workers is literal suicide. The employer is very important in Japan and the companies have a lot of power. So when they are unethical, the backlash will be huge.
While it's very disappointing for the engineers and policy people, they still drive their expensive car home to their big houses. Not the case for some factory workers.
A shame that honda never stuck it out and EJ being too stuck in his boots could have had a great team f only he found something else to do when honda told him no room at the table when racing started for the season.
Good lord that prototype is pretty.. Bring back refueling and short wheel bases pronto.
I can not stand those 7m long boats.
Honda seems to be a team with absolutely horrendous luck
Eddie Jordan might be kicking himself
Well, question is also what happened at Sauber. What would've happened if Fred Vasseur didn't choose to be Ferrari's B-team with no independence, identity and very little amount of funds. Would Sauber - Honda have been a success? Would it still be Sauber or would Honda have bought they whole operation in Hinwill? It is known that they informed about Toro Rosso, but RBR's ask was too high.
I’m confident that Honda would have won the Championship in the Drivers and Constructors. With all the development they had in the works on for the RA109. The car we see was NOT the car they developed. If you look up the test mule from the dyno you will see the nose, wing and side pods are totally different...
Please guys do a feature on the REAL RA109 and Honda R&D during that time and the time they spent on developing a 100% winner. Racecar Engineering has a feature on it called HONDA MYSTERY F1 car
Honda had a car for 2009 they should have stayed even just for that year
And Brawn won with Honda's money
@@bullracing1 with a Merc engine. The merc engine was a big factor
Could we see honda again given the better share in the current concorde and the extent to which the PUs are being developed?? F1 could seriously do with another works team
Honda for the win! The power of dreams!
For a nation with a reputation of 'no surrender', they seem to bail rather quickly in recent years.
I'm just hoping that current iteration of Honda participation in F1 can win a championship.
yes, Go Kvyat Go!
You may get your chance this year
Jordan + Honda would have been a championship winner.
While Frentzen was a contender in 1999, I think it's hard for them to win the championship.
If it had stayed for 2009, the engine wouldn't have given the power needed to win the championship. If they had stayed beyond that, it's anyone's guess. Maybe keeping Mercedes out, for at any length of time, would have changed 2014 onwards though.
The engine doesn't really matter. Much more important is Honda's money to upgrade the chassis. Brown had no money. They drove carefully so as not to damage the chassis, saving money.
@@ttgl08 Not sure. There could have been approx 50+ horsepower between Mercedes and Honda the previous year. Perhaps they would have closed up the gap a little had they stayed, but the Mercedes deal made them a completely competitive package, in both power and drivability.
@@JT-ko2ib It's all marketing. The engine does not provide a huge gain in lap speed. Aerodynamics were the main cause of Honda's problems in 2007/2008. And in 2009 they solved it. Due to aerodynamics, they lost 1.5-2 seconds each. No engine was able to compensate for such a huge gap at that time.
@@ttgl08 Can't agree there. Look at Ferrari this year and its customer teams compared to 2019. Much poorer performance owing to an engine related drop.
Yes, aerodynamics are a large part of it, but they need a good engine too. Honda were beaten by Super Aguri a lot in '07, because Honda's rebadged previous year's car was superior overall, I agree.
'07 also proved the superiority of the Mercedes engine to the Honda power plant. Look at when Sato was running behind Alonso at Canada, on the onboard shots before he overtakes him. The McLaren, with all its extra downforce, was still able to pull a couple of car lengths from hairpin to the final chicane, all while providing a distant tow. Those extra car lengths add up to a significant amount around the lap.
@@JT-ko2ib Interesting details. But in fact the engine gives a few tenths per lap. This is maximum. The rest is accomplished by aerodynamics / mechanics. Talking about 2007/2008 - Honda invested hundreds of millions of dollars in a new 2009 chassis, as you know, using 3 different teams and stopping the 2008 chassis upgrades. And the Williams vs Mercedes comparison in 2019 makes the value of the engine really worthwhile. 4 seconds Williams lost to the factory Mercedes team on the same engines, and about 3 seconds a season earlier. Aerodynamics / mechanics decide.
Well, if Honda stayed in the F1 grid til today, they'd be more that just 2-3 factory teams with today's standards
8:44 "under Mercedes ownership, what was once BAR and Honda, has done okay since then"
((okay)) suure 😂😂
No one:
Honda: "yeah, Imma head out"
Yay time stamps
BMW, Honda & Toyota all vying for spots in the F1 grid. Back when F1 actually attracted the big boy OEM's. By 2002 we had 6 engines manufacturers on the grid. Different times.
It is time for Honda to enter F1 as a winning constructor
One way or another Honda has had a big impact on F1. It's kind of sick Mercedes getting so much credit for the success of a team, that would not have existed without Honda. Hope the big H conquers the F1 top again.
What makes you think that Mercedes would not have achieved it without the purchase of the Honda team?
@@nicolasgarcia8608 pretty sure the success coming after Honda left isn't a coincidence.
@@michaelcollins966 so with that same logic does JV or Craig Pollock deserve credit for Merc success since they literally started the team back in 1999? No? I didn't think so...
@@michaelcollins966 NO, it's not a coincidence.
It is because of Mercedes´s employee's hard work (specially on their engine program)
It is because they have a huge budget, and they use it well, and they hire the perfect driver for their car, and manage him very well.
@@nicolasgarcia8608 Certainly MB would not have their own team if Honda hadn't quit. The Japanese were very generous to forgo their base in Brackly for 1 pound! in order to preserve the jobs of the team. Now ironically have to fight against their former self. Coincidentally MB also bought Ilmor Engineering in 2005 which is where their f1 engines are made. In contrast the other F1 engine manufacturers have developed their engine programs in-house from scratch.
Ross Brawn- “You wont quit F1, you sissies...[wrings hands maniacally]”
Honda walking away was a missed opportunity.
Brawn won due to the last aerodynamic design being incorporated into an already good chassis which was the blown diffuser.
Had Honda continued they would have had that.
With Button and Brawn as team principal a win or even multiple wins would have been certain.
I love Honda but their history is riddled with indecision leading to them being on the wrong side of history. Every once in a while throw some caution to the wind and see where it takes you.
They did just not often in F1. Plus, when you're massive company, you don't just make gigantic decisions on a feeling or a whim. You have to think like an adult human instead of a frat boy.
2008 wasn't really their fault though. The economic recession forced a lot of teams to quit like BMW and toyota
Alternate History: BAR Honda Stayed, Honda F1, Jordon Honda? Mercedes domination would never be a thing. We'd have 20 years for Redbull Vettel Domination. And Mclaren would have pulled out of F1 with dismal Alonso results at Mclaren Renault.
Mercedes would of stayed with Mclaren. Nice try though
Ok, i have to do a Assetto corsa Mod of this Car
I still regard toyota as the best japanese worksteam ever. Unfortunately they pulled out after only a few years bcs of the economic crisis. They were well on their way in becoming a formidable force
Communication with Japanese engineers would be tough for any team to do right. There are going to be cultural problems that will effect the end product as well as hurt feelings when things go badly.
0:02 that’s what she said
Honda should give their NSX to Max to fine tune it.
Like Max finetuned the RBR??? Also, the NSX was build to be an accessible car. But anyway, he'll probably get one next year and if he has ideas, they might listen. I think Newey should work on a Honda streetcar as well. Like a new Integra. Or an S2000 successor.
@@djoetma Improve NSX like senna did
Mercedes would of probably bought force india and became what they are today anyway if they couldn't nuy brawn
Under mercedes ownership what was previously BAR-Honda has done okay since then.
Just marginal improvements 😂
after famous years with Mclaren in V12 age,Honda is not been competitive later,and after this ages with BAR and Jordan,fall in crisis financial and dissapear
Honda wouldn't have won the 2009 championship. the merc engine was a huge step up. Also Schumacher and crew also told Mercedes had to invest more. Mercedes isn't the greatest team in F1 history.
Considering that they hit the ground running and dominated everything even though they're quite a young team, they might as well be the greatest team ever to race in F1.
@@sailor7537 Mercedes GP Petronas were terrible for four years (2010-2013)...
It's been "OK" since then. I don't know how much Honda DNA is still in the Mercedes, but when your success shakes the sport to its core and threatens to undermine engagement and viewership through sheer domination of the competition, I think that "OK" might be a slight understatement.
Ooo eee, ooh ahh ahh, ting tang, wallah wallah, Bing bang
Starts 0:55
Why do you pronounce 3 as free?
The first time Honda shafted a verstappen
Deja vu time
Asian companies just work differently
Great narration, Yes if only Japanese was Impatient
The HRD project was our hope for Jos Verstappen for a proper car, to bad it never happened.
"Jos Verstappen for a proper car"? he drove the Benetton in 1994, and he was horrible!!!
Nicolas Garcia Yebra
Yes, that came to early for him
@@_Bram he was seconds away from schumi, no tenths.
1994 qualy sesions:
Brasil 1,893 sec
Pacific 2,114 sec
england 8 places (don't have the times)
germany 17 places
Hungary 11 places
Belgium 4 places
And he never did anything good with any car. (that i can remember)
I mean..i remember brazil lossing the car and hitting martin on his head
@@nicolasgarcia8608 yeah he never should have that carreer starting your first race in a benetton beside Michael. Bad decision by his management. I also believe Schumacher car was rigged". Traction controle? Anyway shame it got his carreer in the shits
Honda backstabbed Jordan. 😢
Toyota ft .honda
Honda give up when things get difficult. Very political team kind of like Ferrari at the moment.
yep, leaving f1 again
Respect to Honda
VTEC has entered the chat
Well, this video didn't aged well
If it didnt leave in 2009 The Brawn GP car would not have won the championship with a Honda engine.
Wrong. Honda was far ahead in development having entered before Mercedes.
Brawn won due to the blown diffuser which was a revolutionary aero advantage with massive gains compared to others.
Had they had Honda it would have been a win by a larger margin.
@@crxdelsolsir WRONG Mercedes engine was the number 1 engine package in the KERS era and the Honda engine was the worst maybe check your facts mate, Mercedes as a full factory team only came in after Brawn because the purchased the Brawn team but that has nothing to do with my comments on engines, and with a Honda engine Honda wouldnt win even with a double defuser. Look at the championship redbull started winning most of the latter races and Brawn needed everything they had to win including the superior Mercedes engine.
The race being always a bit too ahead of the curve...
Red bull using Honda engine
F1 is a real life soap opera, except with the fastest cars in the world.
wtf1 who?
The "greatest team in F1 history" is not Mercedes
And then they left in 2020
Honda would be the most dominant most successful team if they don't have those weird psychological breakdowns every decade,every time it looks like damn Honda is getting it's shit together they just drop away .60s they were on the cusp of greatness then left ,80s to early 90s they were the pinnacle then left .B.a.r were getting good and dominated as Brawn in the 00s,now Red bull is coming up as the only credibile challenge to a team Honda basically created now they dropping away again .It's like as soon as they start feeling better they stop the anti psych meds then just lose their minds
if stuff would have continued with honda an not turned into brawn gp and consecutively mercedes we would have had a 7 time world champion in sebastian vettel instead of hamilton......................simple
Why Honda aborted it’s 1999 F1 test car project:
Formula 1 racing is not a profitable business venture, never has been.
Formula 1 is not a level playing field, the biased FIA favoritism towards Ferrari and secret back door deals has always prevented that.
Mercedes arguably the greatest F1 team ever? Behave.
Oh, I don't know. Winning more than 100 races in 10 years in F1, winning a record 7 straight drivers' and 7 constructors' titles (looks very likely right now) in what is definitely the most competitive era with the toughest competition certainly is a good point for the claim it's "arguably" the greatest F1 team ever. It took Ferrari 40 years to win their 100th GP, McLaren 30 years to win the 100th GP (27 actually but 30 sounds better) and Williams 20 years to win their 100th GP (counting from the foundation of Williams Grand Prix Engineering in 1977).
Today almost all teams have top facilities, equipment and can rely on the same spec power units as the best team using the same power unit as them.
No, I don't support Mercedes or even Hamilton. But one has got to be either blind or a liar not to see what an amazingly dynamic organization they are. Quite simply without peer in F1 history.
Last of all. Anybody claiming Ferrari is the greatest F1 team ever is as clueless as somebody claiming that "The King of Rock" Elvis Presley is the greatest musician ever. Widespread fame doesn't equal quality, innovation, creativity or ingenuity. Not in music, not in racing, not in anything.
So you behave.
Next Video: Why Honda aborted F1 in 2022
Why Honda aborted its f1 project?
Alonso: it had a GP2 engine
dry and lame joke.
first
Who asked
HONDA DID HISTORY! Crap teutons were nothing without a lab like HONDA's - after such a bad choice by it! HONDA WILL REMAIN BEST ENGINE SUPPLIER EVER (look what crap were the teams with M engines overall than with HONDA engine teams in time!) INDYCAR 500 it's a real proof nowadays HONDA should of stayed in F1!
sit down. Calm down.
@@vividthespis Ntz Ntz Ntz! Foff insolent! Check history and read though words. I'm calm!
Japanese culture is not (succesfully) compatible with modern F1. If they continued...they would have been a mid field team and occasional flopper (2007 and 2008)
Nonsense. Apart from the fact that this team was never fully Japanese, they would've won the world championship in 2009 in a dominating way. The BrawnGP was probably slower because they had to adjust it to the Mercedes engine and unlike BrawnGP, Honda F1 would;ve had the money to keep developing the car.
Honda are COWARDS
While I am loving your videos and journalism, could you please ease on asking fr subscribing on every video possible, it is getting a bit annoying by now and if anything would make subscribers unsubscribe you. While I really appreciate why you are doing this, please ease off a bit. It is a very humble request !
You do realise that the is how all CZcams channels work right
@@seanonraet8327 Obviously I know and read what I said above, I am not suggesting to stop it but rather easing off a bit there is a big difference between the two.
It's always easy in hindsight. The Brawn diffuser trick could have been declared illegal, or the car could have just been a total dog, and Honda's decision to cut their losses would have looked smart. They should have gone in full program in 99 though.