LIVE: Wheel of Time Season 2 Finale Watch & React + Daniel Greene & The Dusty Wheel!
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- čas přidán 11. 10. 2023
- Join Brandon Sanderson, Daniel Greene, and Matt Hatch (The Innkeeper), Live, as they watch and react to The Wheel of Time Season 2 Finale, Episode 8, What Was Meant To Be, with a live discussion afterwards!
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"I'm allowed to be sad, I think."
Indeed Brandon. Indeed.
Love Brandon being honest with his feelings. It just shows how he operates from a position of power now. That bodes well for any Stormlight adaptation as he alluded to. He doesn’t need the money. He can focus on quality.
Yup! Exactly, my thoughts aswell. At least SLA will be his vision realized.
I hope he goes for an anime adaptation first. I really think anime is the best hope for book adaptations. I don't think having an anime around will suppress demand for a live action. I think it's a good first step towards a live action.
^it really doesn’t even have to be live action
I've just finished the first Stormlight book this morning!! It was excellent and should make for a great adaptation given to the right hands i.e. not Rafes
@@CalvinLee606 I'd love to see a LotR quality live action of some of my favorite books, but I think the recipe for that type of quality is still disputed/unknown. I think anime gives you a good middle ground where you can start pruning down the book into a shorter/screen play narrative, but longer than you can do with live action. For example, I imagine that forcing an iterative process into the production isn't nearly as expensive (reshoots, adding a scene, etc). Also, I fall into the camp that Hollywood is ideologically broken at the moment, so if you want anything that resembles the original work you'll need to go elsewhere.
I'm of the opinion that WoT was always going to fail as a live action, it's just too big. Just tying actors up for the amount of screen time necessary to tell the story is a problem. Anime on the other hand...give it 250-500 episodes. With something like 15-20 hours per book you'd be able to get a pretty faithful retelling.
On Mat’s makeshift spear
Daniel Greene: I wish we could see the dagger do what it actually does.
Brandon Sanderson: I wish it weren’t the dagger.
😂
Well they've established now that this dagger can be used as a light saber to open doors. Also it kills red shirts in seconds, but has no lasting impact on important characters regardless of the time between stab and healing. Although I'm sure this second part will also be inconsistent since they made such a point of focusing on Rand's wound as opposed to Loial's.
@@ethanhandel1001 Loial is an Ogier, so I can see that being different. They technically come from a different plane of existence and have strange magical powers/requirements for survival that no one understands. But that's assuming they actually go there in the show.
@@davidlovesyeshua It would be nice if they thought that through, but I doubt it. I think they just thought, let's have a fake out death in this scene as a cliffhanger for next season and didn't even consider the weapon being used aside from it being a dagger.
@@ethanhandel1001 Yeah that's more likely closer to their thought process than going deep into lore intricacies. For the main writers/directors at least, I know they have a "book expert" on staff among other things.
It was so cathartic to hear Brandon voice the same criticisms I've had of the show. He was very fair, approving of things done well also. I appreciate him for voicing this on behalf of fans! I already was a big fan of Sando's books, but this authenticity made me an even bigger fan of his.
I agree, and hearing the dude from the dusty wheel defending some of the stupidity from the show, is he paid by Amazon? This is the second season so clearly I’m watching the show, and I’ll do it to the end, but I’m not gonna defend anything that they do because it’s all been unnecessary. He’s arguing with Brandon about Taveren, really?
I'm actually fine with disputes over minutia like that. I personally agree with Sanderson and think his arguments are extremely strong... but I'll allow differences of opinion on ambiguities.
MY issue is that Matt KEPT criticising the books to defend the show.
For some reason, criticism of the show is LESS acceptable than criticism of the books?
Something not being earned or making sense in the show is okay bc "RJ did that stuff in the books all the time"
When? Sure, ta'veren is a convenience that he baked in... but it's EXPLAINED. It's *consistent* and it is typically foreshadowed. I don't remember a SINGLE part of the books where I felt a character did something that wasn't built up to. Even Matt, whose superpower is luck... earns his moments. And typically his luck gives him what the pattern needs (what he needs) NOT what he WANTS. Which is *fun* for the reader!
@@billyweightman4096
Of course he's paid by Amazon. These corporations go after "influencers" to shill for them. It's well known. All these pro-show "influencers" are including Greene are taking money from Amazon! @@billyweightman4096
Listening to Brandon here it's clear why he is such a successful storyteller
29:18 Sanderson pointing out "[the hunt for the horn] is Quest fantasy" its the mythology and mcguffin driving the plot, it should be front and center around who has the horn, what's happening to it, who and why each party is vying/back-stabbing/plotting to acquire and use it... Because THAT shows the characters' aspirations, goals, motivations, and character. Its a fundamental point by which we are able to compare and contrast factions to understand them. When Sanderson says "I bought into the mythos", I felt right there with him. Robert Jordan built a beautiful and colorful world with interesting characters and systems, with centerpieces vivid and complex that draws me and soo many other in with on the journey.
I can't believe we live in a world where one piece has a better live action adaptation than wheel of time
You don’t
@@BrianScott1111 Hard disagree
This season was much better than last… but the season finale fell on its face hard for me
I was able to get my wife on board with One Piece even though she doesn't like anime. But Wot, one of the things closest to my heart, I wasn't able to share. It's an embarrassment compared to the source material
I agree with this. Though I never saw the anime, I was really invested in every characters story arc in the One piece show. It felt like the characters had a purpose with where their story was going and it was done well.
Really great commentary by Brandon and Daniel. When Brandon said he waited 30 years to see Rand battle in the sky, that hit me the hardest. Almost a year ago the "Origins of the Wheel of Time" was published and gave a deep view of how much passion has gone into the books. All of my criticisms with the show boil down to this, the cast seems passionate about making a good TV show but very few seem passionate about Wheel of Time itself. I think that's reflected in a lot of these changes. The result is, as Brandon said, lots of spectacle but little of the magic that made the books special to so many of us.
Books are merely another IP for woke people to screed forth their religion. Ruin Johnson spit on the fans and gave us Jake Skywalker. Rafe burned the books and gave us Jake Al'Thor.
Lots of scenes, but no story...
@@bidossessiIt's like watching moments strung together, but there is no logic holding it together. It's tough to follow.
This is been what I've been thinking. They made a good fantasy show, but they made a terrible Wheel of Time. I like a lot of what they have done with the cast and some of the spectacle. However, they are messing up shit that will box them into a corner or even erase some great story plots.
@@jonahdav9589 What's woke? Define it please.
This encapsulates a lot of popular media: cool looking scenes in isolation that completely break down when you start thinking about the character arcs, the plot and the themes.
The issue is that people tend to forget the things they consume very quickly in this day of constant entertainment. By the time you are primed to realise what you have watched previously wasn't that great, you're already deep into something else of the same caliber.
It's like a never-ending honeymoon phase loop.
I'm so glad Sanderson has these opinions, gives me hope for good Cosmere adaptations. This show had potential but is so poorly written and it's a bit sad people can't have honest conversations about it. Lost potential because acting and the rest is very good. There is hope for the Cosmere and that's the only good thing about this 😂
Yeah, Brandon is learning what works and what doesn't. This show walks, so that the Cosmere can run in the future.
Thank you Brandon. I felt like I was taking crazy pills. People saying "this is better" "that is fixed" and "that part of the book was boring anyway".... They are telling a story but they aren't telling RJ's WOT story. If you changed the name of people and cities most people wouldn't even know this was a WOT fan fic.
Matt has to continually put down the books to defend the show. It's not that the show is good.... It's that "that part was bad anyway, Rand being good with sword was fantasy. We had to give 4, 5, 6 tier characters something to do... even though we take stuff away from Rand Mat and Perrin".
Rand was trained by two blademasters (Tam, Lan, and void training) and had access to his past life knowledge. It made plenty of sense in books and was earned.
@@jonahdav9589 Not enough time for the training, though. I didn't like it in the books from the first time I read it. Very Gary Stu.
Let’s be honest. You didn’t read them. You completely missed the point of being taveran
At the start of the 2nd book, Rand has spent weeks of time being personally tutored by Lan at the Saldean fortress. Between that and Rand being taught his whole life the basics of fighting from Tam, no I'd say it definitely feels earned.
In book 1, Rand is a complete novice carrying a sword he hasn't really earned, his first trolloc kill was effectively an accident of luck / taveren. But by book 2, Lan taught him how to use a sword properly and Rand has to use one more than once to survive.
I love that Matt is arguing how the metaphysics of the the wheel of time works WITH THE GUY WHO WROTE THE LAST 3 BOOKS! Brandon might not be the original Author, but he's the closest to it that exists.
Yeah only 33 mins in so far and getting a little frustrated with that.
He honestly talks like he knows more than anyone and everyone else's opinions are obviously wrong and he's going to tell you why.
@@meis1385I agree. He is a some off as a know it all. Brandon knows more than him and it definitely bugs him.
Brandon Sanderson is a treasure! I can’t wait for the Mistborn adaptation one of these days!
I am a non-book reader and I totally agree there are good things but it’s nothing makes sense and I feel like I have to ask my book reader friends (who already stopped watching) for clarification.
“I want to love the show, and I like it” Brandon Sanderson nailed it.
Such a missed opportunity.
The fight in the clouds should not have been taken out. They missed the opportunity, not only was it one of favorite things from the whole book series, but they could’ve expanded Rand’s character.
All they had to do is have Rand defeat Tarok in a sword fight. This would’ve gave mystery to the viewer “how could this be?”, so it would be linked to he trained off screen (had the blade master in the asylum actually have a pay off) and once they reveal Lews Therin is Rand and in his head, it gives that rewatch some power as well, knowing that Lews was a blade master.
That would have been a great set up for the cloud fight with Ishy. As I don’t think they were really “trying to make it their own” or budget reasons. I think the writers actually didn’t know how to have Rand solo Ishy in a swordfight, and didn’t want to because Egwene and the others.
Really seems like they want to downplay Rand’s importance.
That's funny because as a non-book reader I always am afraid of the characters being suddenly stronger than those thousand year old people, or even a decade long swordsman.
When that scene was seat up I was like "No way Rand has enough training to win this" and found funny and satisfying him using the one power. Later the opposite was true with Rand defeating Ishamael so easily. There was the entire cast there and I was thinking "why they dont help?" So I even got the impression that Ishamael is kinda weak, even knowing he is the strongest channeler after the Dragon.
Please, read the books themselves. They actually are, as a Whole, a truly wonderful novel series and well worth it.
@@lutokill4784interesting. But from the shows alone do you get that Rand is the main hero and the most important character? Think like Egwene being Hermonine and Rand being Harry. Or maybe more like Ginny versus Harry
@@taylorandrews8236 I definitely feel like the protagonism is relatively split between the characters in the show. Rand doesnt seem like a superpowered person that can carry everyone on his back, but seems like a... Canon maybe? he can throw the biggest punches but has shortcomings. I definitely feel like season 2 gave way more focus on Rand than Season 1. But i cant say that i think Randis the main hero.
Respect to Brandon for being honest about his criticisms. Regarding Rand beating Turak in swordfight there is another thing that I don't think you mentioned, Rand was trained by Lan, but he was still loosing before he used the flame and void and also he seized the OP. We know that OP also gives a boost to the channeler's physical power with their reflexes and senses becoming better. It's almost like the boost male warders get because of the bond.
I'm glad Mr. Sanderson was actually willing to levy some criticism. Honestly, I was a huge fan when I watched season 1, and it got me to read the first 2 books, and... that's when my feelings changed. I saw how different everything was and how much better the books are. I loved Rand and Mat in the books, for instance. If I have to say one good thing, I do at least really love Lan still in the show. But I do wish we never had that funeral scene lol I also like Egwene and Nynaeve in the show, but I liked Nynaeve a bit more in the books so far. And Lanfear was pretty cool. I don't like the sexual relationship with Rand, cuz I liked the young innocence of the Emmond's Fielders from the books. And I wish we got to see them meet to get some buildup to it. I could go on and on but I'll spare the rest of my thoughts.
If it weren't for that funeral episode and scene in particular, I might still be watching that show. The second they made Lan cry in front of other people, I was done. If they can't get that detail right, then they arent even trying. I could see him crying in solitude at that point or even while standing in a room with Moraine, bit in a room full of people... nope.
@@Azzbusteragree, instead of stoic warder Lan we got crying-and-ripping-open-his-shirt-to-twist-his-own-nips Lan
@prometheusproton3886 I'm sorry but stoic doesn't mean never cries or never shows emotions. Don't get me wrong the show sucks in many ways but that scene is the least of the shows problems imo.
This is it: we NEED to let Brandon teach people how to write movies. When Hollywood realises that Brandon’s philosophy on storytelling is what the people want, they will get more viewers than they ever dreamed of. Today’s storytelling is dead, please bring it back!
Rand is able to defeat Turok in their duel because he has been trained by two blade masters. Lan taught him how to use the sword, but even more than that is the flame and void technique that Tam taught him. In their fight the techniques alone almost get him killed, it's only when he uses the void that he is able to win.
Yeah, Rand was trained by two of the greatest swordsmen ever, but even more importantly, he has a third, even BETTER one living inside his head. I don't understand why everybody overlooks this.
@@brianlinden3042 Lews Therin isn’t actively in his head yet at that point.
@@Bittler87 Lews Therin is always in his head, because they're the same person. That's what he learns in Veins of Gold. If anything, the madness voice of Lews Therin is the two sides of him growing farther apart, not closer together.
No, he's never had Lews in his head, telling him, "okay, now transition from 'The Quick Brown Fox Jumps Over The Lazy Dog' into 'Badger Badger Badger Badger Mushroom Snake' to end him rightly" in the middle of a duel, but it's clear that his nature as the reincarnation of one of the greatest swordsmen of all time has had some impact on his natural aptitude. It also explains why going into the Void is so effective for him; it allows his natural talent to shine forth, unimpeded by the conscious thought of a farm boy who doesn't yet realize he's Lews Therin Telamon.
If you read the 2nd book's ch. 19 and you will notice that his sword skill is not the training from Lan but Lewis Therin's memory resurfacing. This fight was a prelude to the swrod fight with Turak and Rand kills 7 or 8 Trollocs effortlessly.
@@thomasc9036 Yes, I just reread the 2nd book a week ago. There is nothing there that reminds me of a connection, just the combination of training forms and the void. He does much the same when he takes down the grolm with his bow in the portal stone world.
The guy in the middle is clearly in too deep with Amazon and the non-book WoT crowd. And he really is sitting there arguing with the guy that helped write the books about what being a ta’veren means. Dude, check yourself
Daniel looks uncomfortable at many points, but he’s also obviously trying to walk a line.
Brandon is clearly not pleased. He doesn’t stop fidgeting the entire time. Numerous times he holds back what would have been obviously criticism. But when he does voice criticism it’s the exact criticism that all book readers have with the show.
I hate the show, btw. Books aside the plot doesn’t make sense. They’ve ruined significant events and provided nothing in return.
My biggest gripe the entire series has been the constant changing of established "mechanics". Like they discussed, once you start playing fast and loose with the rules, it becomes very easy to poke holes in the plot. I lose all suspension of disbelief when they can go toe to toe with Ishy and Moirane can just sink entire fleet of ships no problem. Don't even get me started on the dagger...
Book Aes Sedai can literally call lightning from the sky. I don’t see the problem with Moraine doing that.
@@christianrapper The three oaths, and she isn't really that strong in the one power.
@@eva-maria4281 Moraine is one of the strongest modern Aes Sedai. I do agree with you on one thing. They need to stop breaking their own rules. For example if they knew that the ruby knife was going to be a laser sword in season two, then they shouldn’t have shown Loial getting stabbed in season 1 and being fine later on. Moraine also clearly broke the 3 oaths.
I don't buy into the episode count being one of the major problems. They added so much side stuff that it's like the time constrained was meaningless
Agreed
yes
Totally. Cut out the poorly written Moraine-Lan drama, Moraine's family, Stephans, let Liandrin be the simple jealous Darkfriend she was, and you'll surprisingly have enough time to do all the key moments right.
Kudos to Brandon. I expected him to be far less critical, especially considering his past statements on the podcast about the show. And if you can read between the lines a little bit, I think it shows a lot and hopefully he won't let these mistakes and ideas cloud the adaptation of his own material. More importantly, I'm still shocked that the Jordan estate did not have them or Brandon have the final approval of all changes and just let them loose with the material. Every author of a franchise like this should look up to what the Tolkien people do and learn from them.
jordan estate couldnt do anything the shows rights were bought by amazon by the previous rights holder which wasnt jordan unfortunately
Well... lestons learned, I hope. This is terrible.
Harriet got tricked into selling the rights and is under contract not to be critical.
The Jordan Estate is run by an LLC that has nothing to do with his family. They are just looking to cash in on the IP. They really wouldnt care how well it was adapted outside of the show creating new book sales.
The most emotion that I felt in this whole finale was the Hopper scene, and the only reason I felt sad was because I have an emotional connection to the books' Hopper.
Don't hurt the animals!! I can handle anyone dying but not the animals. I hated when hopper was killed. He was a good boy.
Matt is very definitely making excuses because “big fan” rather than being objective of what’s on screen. Despite constantly say “this isn’t the books” he doesn’t value that the problems are with the adaptations choices and inconsistencies on its own. Correct Brandon/Daniel.
Matt defending the show as much as he does is really off-putting. I get that everyone is entitled to their opinions but it feels like he HAS to defend the show? It comes across as strange.
Appreciate how forward Brandon was in his reaction and feelings. It came across as really genuine.
Matt is defending free content from Amazon.
free does not equate good@@nittomckain9739
@@nittomckain9739 nor is it free as you pay for an Amazon prime membership
Yeah I feel like the show boosted his channel so he kind of feels like he can't crap too hard on it
Glad to see Brandon squirm at all the same things as me.
Dusty wheel fell into the trap of "the books aren't that good actually"
I kinda get that vibe from him too. In general the shows supporters are a bit strange.
The books being "not that good" is pure sophistry. That should have no bearing on the quality of the show, since the showrunners have the clarity of hindsight.
I like Sanderson's writing much more than Jordan's. But in general, I don't think the books have aged well.
@@davidbowles7281 in terms of what?
@@davidbowles7281 agreed. Some things that seemed ok in 1999 don't look that innocuous in 2023. Which explains why the showrunners felt the need to "update" things. Whether they succeed or not is up to posterity.
Heck yeah, I agree with Sanderson on his views of Ta'veren. I've always drawn a comparison between The Pattern and the fabric of spacetime. Every person on the thread is a gravity well. Some have more effect than others, but every single person bends weaves of the pattern around them as they move through life. Ta'veren are the super giant stars of The Pattern. They bend threads towards them that NEVER would have moved if they were normal, and that gives them more possibilities, but not an automatic win. To go further with this analogy [book spoilers] balefire is the equivalent of a singularity. Once a thread interacts with it, that thread cannot escape.
Is this the legendary theater
I couldn't help myself and just started crying at the thought of it.
Listening to this, it seems like Matt actually secretly hated the books all these years, until Rafe made his horrible fanfiction and saved the entier franchise.
How someone can claim to be a super fan of the real series while destroying it in order to defend this turd is beyond me.
No one can claim Wheel of Prime needed more episodes when there was time for Barthanes to explain how he made the best ham and butter sandwiches. Full stop.
Nonsense. Full stop.
Was all the time used with perfect efficiency? Certainly not, but this tiny detail you didn't like doesn't account for the massive amount of character development this show would have benefited from had they been able to slow down a little more and let the characters talk and interact in more meaningful ways across two seasons.
So you prefer 3 seasons of 8x44min episodes then?
@@athomenotavailable With no better writing, there is no need for more episodes. I read the script for the first episode of season one, and the stuff that would have been added to a longer episode was just more non-book nonsense.
1:39:35
No, that's not being Ta'veren Dusty, that's having Mat's Luck. He would be able to do that by shooting at bow at random.
But being Ta'veren is how Brandon says: the Pattern will get you where you need to be, not make you who you need to be, that's on you.
EDIT: And on The Pattern itself, I'm pretty sure every turning of the Wheel is different from the previous one. The broad pattern is the same, but the different threads aren't interacting in the same way.
If the Pattern was deterministic, Rand and Birgitte wouldn't be able to remember/see their past lives as being vastly different from the ones they are currently living.
Anyway, I think there is plenty of evidence to support the idea that the Pattern isn't a deterministic system at the person-level.
I'm totally with you, Brandon! I mean, how do you adapt this series without including that duel in the sclouds, it's beyond me...
They didnt even include rand at tarwins gap. They didnt include anything from the books!
[minor book spoilers below]
I think that the changes to Egwene's release were the most frustrating part of this episode for me. They spent so much time showing how impossible it was for damane to escape. They can't even touch something that they think of as a weapon. They cannot channel without their sul'dam allowing them to. They are utterly broken so that they can be used as weapons. Then, suddenly, in this episode Egwene is no longer broken or defeated or afraid of Renna - she openly defies her to... save whitecloaks.
Nynaeve and Elayne study the a'dam, they capture a sul'dam with the necklace, they are the ones who did the intel, at great sacrifice, and probably should have been able to figure out that sul'dam can channel - but Egwene just... figures it out herself? At least let Nynaeve and Elayne give her that information somehow so they aren't completely pointless!
I think the worst part is that Egwene is able to put a collar on Renna despite the previously defined constraint of "damane can't even touch something that they believe is a weapons". You could say "well the a'dam isn't a weapon", and I while I disagree, well maybe... but from a thematic and storytelling point of view this sequence removes the utter hopelessness of damane that they established. They established that there is there is absolutely no escape for them, or at least so it seems in episode 6. Even someone as tough as Egwene eventually gives in. She's defeated. She's broken. She's accepted her loss. But then I guess she changed her mind and decided not to be defeated and broken.
She needs a reason to have hope again - maybe her friend Nynaeve who she had a falling out with coming to rescue her? Or her friend Rand who she thought was dead coming to rescue her?
It seems like the showrunners had so many options for people to help Egwene, and to reinforce that helplessness as a damane that drives Egwene to establish "I hate the Seanchan and will never ever ally with them or trust them in any way" as one of her core values. I just think the story is more interesting when the a'dam are scary. And they were. Now they aren't.
This is what broke the episode for me too.
I got the impression that was less for the White Cloaks and more for the civilians in the city
While I can agree with the spirit of your argument, the mechanics of what Egwene did were solid. She was never broken (like she was never broken in the books), she just stopped seeing the pitcher as a weapon to harm Renna. That doesnt mean she does not still look for ways to escape. Her logic about the a'dam and sul'dam is just good. They made her smart (which she is in the books). She Observed that sul'dam could use damane to channel, close to what they had her do in Tarwin's Gap. She hypothesized that sul'dam could channel. We dont know if she could Research anything. She then created a Hypothesis, then Tested said hypothesis. She did not see the a'dam as a weapon against Renna, she just wondered what would happen if she correctly guessed the sul'dam could channel.
The only part where this falls down is she was able to pin Renna to the wall. Egwene still had on her a'dam. Either the effects should have neutralized each other, or they effects would have just applied to each other (meaning neither could attempt to hurt the other one). The only way this makes sense is if the Black Sister that created the a'dam created a back door where the a'dam that is applied last over-writes any other a'dam application.
The prior event with Nynaeve, Elayne, and their a'dam was just a way to explain the situation to the audience. They were there to #1 heal Rand and #2 introduce Rand to Elayne since they skipped the garden terrace scene in Caemlyn.
My last thought is that Egwene did not defy Renna to save White Cloaks. She just wanted to stop killing people. This is one of those story beats they added that were good. Ishamael alluded to a plot to turn Rand by turning his friends towards darkness. They were hoping that his loyalty would force him dark to save them from the darkness. Mat and Perrin were already going to go down a dark path, but now Egwene has back-stabbed someone, then committed a viscous murder and Moiraine has committed a mass murder AND broken Oath #3 (which is actually impossible so this is bad adherence to world logic) "Never to use the One Power as a weapon, except in the last extreme defense of her own life, or the life of her Warder, or another Aes Sedai".
the problem with perrin now is that dain is in the right, perrin did kill geofram and not in self-defence
Murdered and mutilated the body...
Yes, but Dane never cared about how righteous the kill was in the books. It MAY weigh heavily on Perrin, but probably not. It was a revenge killing.
This was one of the best things I've ever experienced! Amazing!
You gotta love how the sound guy does his job and then just sits back and watches the show while these three talk about it.
Did he do his job thoughh if he didn't do audiochecks before they started filming...?
@orcanimal is it his fault that they started filming when he was in the middle of doing checks? It expends on who made the call to start filming. If he said checks were good when they weren't, That's on him. If they turned on the stream before he was ready it's on them.
Rafe and Amazon is one of the prime example of what's everything wrong with modern media. First he kills Uno as gag to annoy Sanderson then sets his favorite character Egwene to outshine Rand in the last moment. Good job Rafe, now let's see how you will set Avienda to be s3's main character 💀.
It will still be Egwene, they've set it up over and over that Rand can't do anything because he hasn't gone to magic school and being the lights champion, taveren, having Lew's memories doesn't have an impact.
If Rand can't do anything until he has a teacher then how can he beat Asmodean?
Obviously Egwene will fight him for control of the choedan Kal then force him to train Rand because she will realize Rand will be useless to her in her final showdown with the dark one otherwise.
Love hearing Brando's thoughts and I want more, but I really appreciate the 3 varying opinions being discussed.
Saying that "ta'veren" is why Egwene was able to successfully defend against Ishamael will go down as one of the most absurd things I have ever heard. Ta'veren can be used to justify a lot of things, but if you're going to use it as that much of a crutch here then there's no point in even having anything. Why didn't it protect her from the a'dam? Oh right because it was not convenient to pull that card at that particular moment. I'm all for giving the show props for what it does well, but Mr. Dusty Wheel seems to defend *all* of the decisions, no matter how nonsensical.
Furthermore, in season one, Ishamael overpowers Moiraine WITHOUT EFFORT at the Eye of the World. He then shields her and ties off the weave, as we learn later in this season, demonstrating not only his incredible power in comparison to the Aes Sedai of the current Age, but also doing so using Moiraine in particular. The Forsaken are repeatedly talked about as knowing much more about Channeling than the current Aes Sedai. And yet we then see Moiraine launching a literal cascade of fire, destroying an entire fleet of ships miles offshore, while all Ishamael can do is throw little fireballs one at a time at Egwene's shield, being rendered completely powerless in the process? And then just *letting* himself be stabbed, not even trying to do anything? It's not good writing. It's totally inconsistent.
Why was the dagger able to melt a doorknob and nearly fatally wound Rand here, but when Loial was stabbed by it in season one, it was never even touched on again and he was totally fine right at the start of season two? It's not good writing. It's totally inconsistent.
Why was Egwene somehow able to overpower her a'dam and kill Renna - something which, mind you, has *never* been done before in this world (and unless they totally forego having any powerful Seanchan damane, they will once again have to break consistency as a result of) - despite Renna saying that if she even thought about anything as a weapon she wouldn't be able to touch it? It's not good writing. It's totally inconsistent.
Honestly, you can point out hundreds of potholes and inconsistencies in the writing throughout the series so far. I don't really care that they are diverging somewhat from the books, but at least if you're going to do that, you need to tell a good story and not break the rules that you've tried to establish just because you've written yourself into a corner and can't come up with more creative solutions. You know the mantra by now. Not good writing... inconsistent... yada yada.
Yup in this turning of the wheel: Matt made his lightsaber, Egwene strangled herself then made a force field, Lan whined, Moraine the puppet master got puppetied and other cool stuff😮
😂😂😂😂 point on. The show was horrid
Thanks Brandon, I agree with everything you said. Season 2 was a vast improvement but this was by far the weakest episode of the season. And I'm honestly getting upset by Rand's big moments being stolen away. His character arc is the greatest in sci-fi/fantasy, and top 3 in fiction all together. It's a masterpiece of narrative. It's really discouraging, but I'm trying to be optimistic that his arc will remain intact for the rest of the show. Egwene already had her triumphant Renna scene, she didn't need that one as well. And her being able to stand up to Ishy for anything over 3 seconds is just absolutely ridiculous.
We can all be sad the "wheel of time" show fails to be "The Wheel of Time". Complete respect for Brandon, must be hard trying to get any little bit of the books into this disappointment of an adaptation.
It really doesn't make sense that Ishy would stand still in front of Egwene's shield because at this point he's still trying to kill Rand so he can reboot the cycle.
Why he accepts his death at the end is a mystery to me though... it doesn't make sense at all because he could have just overpowered Rand and resume his original plan.
As it stands, Ishy comes out as quite weak and pathetic imo... :/
He gets brickwalled by a half-dead rookie, and then he decides to die.
We can come up with every reason we want, it still doesn't remove the fact that the scene itself and everything leading to it is broken.
As a non-book reader I really enjoyed Ishamsel character across the season and felt completely disappointed by how easily he was defeated.
Not having Nynaeve channel this episode was the biggest WTF moment for me in the season. I mean they have her staring around at the carnage. So easy to get her mad somehow to channel and heal Elayne. Then when they finally meet Egwene, she can actually contribute to the end game by bolstering her shield. What a squandered opportunity. Tops even the ashandarei moment.
The Perrin stuff still annoys me more though.
I loved this episode when I watched it last week.
Watching it again, there's a whole lot that annoys the hell out of me. If I could re-write it, I'd have had the Rand and Egwene meeting go as it was. Mat comes in and engages Ishamael, saving Rand, but then gets tricked and the stabbing happens as is. Then Egwene wakes up and puts up her shield. Then Perrin arrives just as she falters, saves her. Then Nynaeve and Elayne show up. Having saved Elayne earlier and overcoming her block, she links with Egwene and raises the shield again. Elayne, not being Nynaeve's equal, she can't heal Rand, so she instead BONDS him as a Warder save him. He wakes up and the whole "Who are you?" scene plays out. The Moiraine stuff happens as it does (at least against the ships), and Rand is freed. He gets up and he explodes in anger, causing the Dragon in the Sky stuff to happen, and bringing down fire on the Forsaken. Ishamael puts up his own shield against it, but Rand surprises him with the white hot blade to the heart.
However, I think that would all be predicated on getting more time to build up a few things like Perrin's fight to accept his inherent anger issues, Mat's avoidance of heroics and the Wheel forcing more and more on him, Nynaeve's block and her working through it, Elayne's facility with weaves, the Prophecies of the Dragon, and most of all, the importance of the Horn of Valere and what it is supposed to do.
Actually I think this could be a good thing, depending on how they write her in S3. Nynaeve could have SUCH a complex about her inability to channel during this fight, and it could lead to some emotional moments as she breaks through that block. If they drop the ball on her development next season though, then yeah, I'll grow to really hate her S2 finale.
But let Rand have a moment? Why must everyone be there every time lmao. Let him solo Ishi. Let him solo the trollocs at tarwins gap. GIVE HIM HIS DRAGON MOMENTS.
Yes, 10 heroes or the horn will really help in Tarmon Gae’don. I’m sure the hundreds of thousands of trollocs, the shades, and the Forsaken will quiver in fear from that tiny group of people.
Yeah, weren't there like 30 in the books?
@@philipc3221 there were 100 heroes of the horn, who were the greatest heroes the world has known.
@s.p.8508 That's right, thanks. It's been a while since I read TGH
Also, not all of them were there because some had been reborn and were already back in the prime world.
@@Azzbuster that’s garbage bud. You are just trying to justify their garbage decisions😹
Praise when warranted.
Acceptance for alterations made because of the visual medium.
Acknowledgement that changes have, indeed, ACTUALLY been made (a lot of people I discuss this with seem in denial, arguing that "the themes and characters have been preserved" or "you just have to be patient")
And most importantly, criticism levied.
The first three are important. The first two are often given too much weight (I always suggest that Daniel Green and many CCs like him will DESPERATELY search for all of the silver linings so they don't have to be too critical :P)
But the last one? Sadly, it tends to get you labelled.
I'm glad to see criticism being given real consideration and weight in analysis.
The fact Brandon has stated it, EXPLICITLY that Egwene is being given too much to do and it is hurting the story AND everyone else arcs AS WELL as her own... and there is literally no argument against him. It sort of says it all.
As I say consistently, a LOT of viewers (especially non book readers) are SO distracted by the PERFORMANCE and the spectacle... they are not even seeing the issues. And that's fine. But that doesn't mean the issues don't exist.
And when your ENTIRE basis for praise for the show is SEPARATING it from its source material... you're basically already conceding the point.
And I'm FINE with "adaptations" that are not adaptations. I unironically love the Resident Evil films. My mates who love the games HATED the movies. Not once did I suggest they were wrong or that they just needed to appreciate them as something new. I got a cool movie with Milla Jovovich being badass. I was a happy bunny. They got something that WASN'T Resident Evil.
I think Daniel and Matt missed Brandon's veiled criticism too.
"the show could use twice the episodes... that way they could spend entire episodes with Moiraine and her family"
As in: They need more episodes so they can waste time on making up new sub plots but STILL have time to ACTUALLY adapt the bloody books :P
And honestly, and I know I'm being harsh and a bit "trollish" here... but is Matt even a fan of the books? "the books do that all of the time" for unearned moments? Do they? Does RJ write scenes are are not earned? Is he NOT fucking INFAMOUS for building up to things, for foreshadowing? To me, that is WAY more of a stretch than even the most unfair criticism of the show. And I have NO IDEA why he's doing it... RJ uses contrivances, for sure. But they're INTERNALLY CONSISTENT contrivances.
Or perhaps this is somebody who nitpicks the books to pieces for fun because they ARE a fan... but for SOME reason is *completely* unwilling to do the same for the show?
And I'll await season 3. And I'll be pleasantly surprised if it is "Rand's season." I somehow think a certain Tower novice will be front and centre searching for the bowl of winds and capturing Moghedien while Rand is probably... Sulking with Moiraine?
REALLY dislike the whole "Rand shouldn't be able to sword fight!" when the VERY same people will defend "show characters" doing things that are LITERALLY impossible in the books.
Reminds me of the Star Wars arguments.
Rey beating a Sith Lord with zero training was TOTALLY FINE because he got shot by a wookie and she "totally didn't beat him" he just... didn't win?
But a male character trained over the course of months by the best swordsman of the age, given an advantage through Tam's tutelage as a child AND with the personality of LTT stirring in his subconscious? He can't POSSIBLE beat an arrogant general who assumes he's an incompetent child. Rand ALMOST GETS KILLED by a mid tier swordsmaster, winning ONLY through assumptions made by that antagonist (setting up some VERY important information about the Sean'chan and how they view the world) but that's "worse" than Rand just being able to kill a dozen people with multiple weaves he's never used before?
Hell, I aren't there yet, but I SOMEHOW think Egwene isn't going to be criticised for going toe to toe with a Forsaken as a novice who has just been beaten and tortured for days.
Now: "it was cool" or "the show didn't set it up for him to use the sword" I can TOTALLY accept.
But "this is better" is PURE bloody cope and ignoring JUST how much RJ built up to that moment.
Also note:
Brandon is TOTALLY accepting of criticism of his OWN creative choices.
He points out flaws in his own work (bc as the author, I'll bet he struggled with them and is his own worse critic)
And crucially... he ACTUALLY credits that people critical of his decisions.... have valid concerns.
Shocking.
And this is the author who successfully completed another mans life's work AND was *widely* celebrated as having done a good job.
Yes he is still more humble and more self critical than the show runner, who to my knowledge has never even accepted that he's made bad decisions?
They way Mat simps for the show feels like someone who is seriously brainwashed.
Brandon just confirmed my biggest fear from the series, that cannot be the Ashandarei 😱😱 they've officially ruined Mat!!!!
Why would this be the Ashendarei. Its literally the dagger bound to a random stick. People out here jumping to conclusions like a bunch of fools.
@@ProvidenceNL According to what Sanderson said, it is confirmed that it is the Ashandarei. Hopefully they will change it.
I think if Egwene can hold Ishamael even for sometime her face should've had that shattering or burning effect that shows she draws power too much and maybe Ishamael could've been impressed by Egwene's power and go easy on her just because he thinks he'll win eventually. That would've been a much better scene I reckon.
The thing is ishy didn't come off as cocky or overconfident. The scene was portrayed as though he was actually being challenged and in some danger.
The writers can't do that because "girl power" was the original basis in Season 1. So now the power levels are whatever the scene demands the character has. There's no logic to how much strength each person has from episode to episode, not even fundamental things like men tend to be brute force stronger in the Power than women.
The implications on the long run is what worries me as Sanderson said. You need growth, character is in state A, and will go to state B. Now this happens in the book in an interwined manner. Roads cross, stuff is learned, or at least some lighthearted funny moments rise. Now when you change that start point or derail the route, now you have to invent new plot devices, which will arguably be worse than source material. The sniffer change was bad because they should have met Elias in a dire position, and a trust could be formed. His manners left nothing to suspect and it was an important start point for perrin. Real sniffer gone, well he was a minor but pretty good actor in Rand's facing off with himself in later books. I can count many shifts that makes me worry. If it had to do with time limitations, then why spend a whole episode in each season with nonexistent stuff like lan's yell or moiraine's family drama. I mean, it is inconsistent. Overall, even if we can say that it is an amazing show, at some point when certain consepts are explained better, even non readers will start seeing those. Stilling and being shielded is another one. There is absolutely no way an aes sedai not knowint the difference between or at least not being familiar with a shield. Tying it off, maybe, but if book moraine suffered this, she would think "oh, so a shield can be tied" not "darn i'm stilled" again, great visuals, great acting, but... there are "but"s.
"I can be sad", well unless you post on social media, especially reddit. While I understand why daniel got a tad pissy with the whitecloaks on reddit, they were right. You and many others were manipulated when amazon invited you to the premier. That said people were harsher than was warranted over that
Thanks for doing this. I really wish you guys had done one of these for every episode. Watching the show with the sound low and the stream up to hear the likes and dislikes along with some interesting insider viewpoints from Brandon really helped alleviate some of the frustration and disappointment I get from watching this interpretation alone.
Love the commentary, and the show needed so many more episodes to do what is needed. Season 3 needs to be 16 episodes.
Would be just more wasted eps on Stephan like characters and non book scenes as Rafe writes large his hate letter to Jordan.
Not more episodes, but a better showrunner and better writers.
The problem with this adaptation is that it completely misses on all the themes of the story. Rafe has said that to him it is about balance, but while balance is an element to the world building, I don't think it is remotely the 'theme.' To me the theme is innocence. All the main characters start out innocent and naive in much of their understanding of the world. Their simple understandings allow them to navigate complex situations simply by holding onto what makes them good. All the characters then have to deal with a building understanding of the evil in the world, evil that they can't manage which turn sends them to dark places in desperate attempts to cope. By the end of the series we get a sort of innocence regained for each of the characters, but in a way that accepts the evil of the world but rejects it as a tool.
The show, in deciding to "age up" the characters they also decided to make them not innocent. Thus we are robbed of all the investment in them as good, the subsequent let down when they fall, and the triumph of them claiming their goodness as their own. Instead we are left with characters doing stuff. The biggest failure is with the first character to complete the arc. Ingtar. Ingtar is by all accounts a good guy before we meet him. He was an idealist who spent his life fighting the shadow. While the world he occupied was dark, his view of it was in a sense innocent. He was a knight saving the world. But he then discovered that the world didn't care and the shadow would never stop and he became world weary and decided to join the shadow instead of being irrelevant. He only ever did one thing. Let a grey man into Fal Dara, but that one action tore him apart. He latched onto the Horn of Valere as his only hope. His darkness continued to eat him in his single minded pursuit of earning his salvation. He finally figures out how to regain his innocence through the innocence of Rand. It is Rand's pure goodness that allows Ingtar to be the first character to break through to the other side and accept forgiveness and healing.
Ingtar sets the arc that all the other characters need to navigate in the subsequent books. It is powerful. I don't cry. I cried.
I was just reflecting how the changes the Perrin in particular dey his boyhood fascination with the axe that later plagues his mind so severely. His innocence and idealization of battle compared with the horror of real killing and real battle. It's such a loss to the character that I don't think we'll ever actually like Perrin in this series. He'll just do stuff. As you say.
There’s too much focus on Moiraine in the show. WoT is about personal growth, but Moiraine is a sage character. Her arc is completed. She is the same person at the start of Season 1 as she is by the end of Season 2. But so much time was allotted to her over other characters, like Rand. What the show did was the equivalent of focusing on Dumbldore over Harry Potter. It just doesn’t make for good storytelling.
Making Moraine the main character was always the plan. She is the only actor with name recognition and established in her career. Needless to say it causes a lot of writing issues that this set of writers isn't talented enough to handle.
Sean bean was the one of the only GoT characters with name recognition and they told the story as it is in the books? No need to give screen time to stroke egos for a name to bring viewers to a show.
I really overall hate how they changed so much of the story. The part that worked best for me was how Perrin and the white cloak Dain make a temp turce only to be broke when Dain's father kills the wolf and then Perrin kills Dain's father. I still prefer the books version of events, but this works better than much of the rest. Stay true to the book would have been a much better option.
This does NOT “have to be its own thing;” it’s either an adaptation or it’s not, and this show reminds me of nothing more than an alien cockroach running amok in an Edgar suit.
I love your comment. Exactly how I feel
It 10000% is its own entity just like LOTR is its own entity. You have to put your book goggles down a bit when you watch things on the screen, otherwise you’ll just be disappointed. You can feel sad about certain things being changed, but still appreciate it for what it is, more wheel of time.
LOTR did this well, WOT is figuring it out slowly, filming during covid, actor changes, etc etc. There’s 15 novels, with hundreds of characters that are important. They’ll figure it out.
I think they SHOULD bring ishamael back. not immediately, but in 2-3 seasons. BUT he won't like being back and still being forced to do his "job" of breaking the wheel. the shadow doesn't let him die and rest. it pulls him back screaming if it needs to.
also we'd get to keep this amazing actor.
do you honestly think this show gets past s3 with how it has split the fanbase?
I think this directly aligns with all of his talk about waiting for the next cycle
Considering the overall positive response from the general audience, and the solid viewership numbers reported, yes, it likely will. Book readers are not the majority here.@@jonahdav9589
Fantastic actor, but I think the Moridin/Aran’gar/Osan’gar resurrections would be more narratively satisfying.
That said, this being a narratively UNsatisfying show, the point is moot
@@jonahdav9589why is it getting a season 3?!!!! We need a book accurate season 1 reboot
Its great being able to watch the series with Brandon Sanderson who after the passing of Jordan wrote the rest of the remaining books. Its sad that Jordan himself cant be commenting on this stuff but age waits for no one.
I love your reaction to Mat's "ashandarei", I was so ... lets say confused.. at that whole twist
What I’m hearing is they consulted one of the two authors and then wiped their butts with the advisement?
As someone who hasn't read the books (yet), it's fascinating to hear Brandon's take on this episode. It certainly makes me keener to start the books sooner than I'd planned.
They are a masterpiece. Brandon wishes he could write such a timeless series. He did good though with writing the finale & i do love much of Brandon’s work, but this is Robert Jordan’s life essence in these books. You’ll see! So good!
@ESO_PRIME I have to say I think Stormlight will prove to be a timeless masterpiece. Taste is subjective, and admittedly, I haven't read WOT yet. However, Stormlight is the best thing I've read to date.
@@CarolineMolyneux4491 Stormlight is very good, i've read it too. By no means does it come close to Robert Jordan's work. Rorbert Jordan's writing style is blood sweat and tears, Brandon Sanderson is good but RJ makes him look like he's still learning the art. You'll see once you read RJ.
Read both. Love both. SLA is superior in my opinion by a far margin. RJ prose is better, and his world / culture building is better because of better prose. But for me the reason BS is better is because BS ending to books is unmatched. RJ endings feel like cop outs half of the time or they don't feel like endings at all. I never had an emotional reaction to any ending aside from book 9 and 11. In comparison every single SLA / cosmere ending has landed for me and evoked emotion from me.
@@ESO_PRIMERJ literally killed 3 of his big bads with Rand just deciding it was time to be powerful.. I love WOT, it’s one of my favorite series of all time, but let’s not kid ourselves and say Sando isn’t on his level at all…? There are GLARING issues with the entirety of the WOT series. That doesn’t make it bad, but it also isn’t without faults. To suggest Stormlight isn’t on par with WOT is wild, especially seeing as it’s not even finished.
Watched S1 with my wife who hasn't read the books. The show was average, but I was hopeful S2 would be better.
It wasn't. I gave the series 6 episodes and was bored half the time. Every episode had so much potential it failed to deliver that it was sad seeing it.
Edit: I wrote chapters instead of episodes.
1:00:06 the vision from Min wasn't a thrown spear. It was a close up stab. So even if he could see Min's visions (which he can't - and he wasn't there for even if he could - and he didn't manipulate it because it ran directly counter to what he wanted to happen) it played out completely differently.
One of my biggest quips about the show is that it is too cramped. I liked the drama and Anvaere Damodred scenens and a deep dive into Moiraines family. I'm totally fine with adaptation changes like that that can enhance the lore and give some characters stronger arcs. But if those things are used when other stuff just suffers... then it becomes cramped and weaker all over.
If they would have combined Tear with Falme they should have made the same arc for Rand. Him going alone and doing his stuff and finally understanding in the end that he can't do stuff alone and he needs others. But that arc was done messy this season. We didn't get a hunt for the horn, Im sorta okay with that... but then Mat blows the horn in the end of Ep8. But in the show that feels as if blowing the horn didn't mean anything. It was not set up properly. Then Rand's arc was weak and that he just stabs Ishy. He is then just needed to have a sword in the diablo scene. A glorified swordholder. The Egwenes arc. They needed to establish that some fuckups you CANT fix without help from others. Now they just made Egwene take care of business herself. She didn't need anyone. That will mess up her arc in the future of the show. Nyneave and Elayne should have saved Egwene. Then in the end they should have linked and made the shield to hold of Ishy. Not Egwene of her own. Egwene could have had the shield for 3s, then gotten help from others to hold it. Missed opportunity!
Brandon states that if Egwene had had a sword in the final scene of Ep8. Rand wouldn't be needed in the scene to kill Ishy in the end. I kinda agree. That is not just "bad writing" but cramped writing. Like they didn't have time to set up things better.
You CANNOT do a complete story arc for multiple characters in 8 episodes and not suffer for it. You either cut ALL drama and completely focus on themes and arcs (and yes from the books) or go even more drama and make it a complete show of its own and call it "inspired by the world of Wheel of Time" when you only have 8 episodes.
This show REALLY needs 12+ episodes to do what they are trying to do. Or else we will have this problem every season. That the biggest mistake Rafe and Amazon Studios have done. Trying to tmdo a story but cheaping out on what that story needs to shine with cutting episodes and cost.
And I am a "showsworn" stating this. So I like most of the stuff done. But it isn't perfect by any means.
Needing more episodes is probably the biggest strawman excuse there is, they have plenty of time wasted that goes nowhere.
Can they fit EVERYTHING from two books into eight episodes? no.
But the writing is shown to be poor on it's own merit
To be fair to Rafe, he fought really hard to have more episodes, but Amazon stonewalled him
If the knew they were short on time, then they should have prioritized what was important.
Brandon when the writers for his live action kill Sigzil in book 2 for dramatic effect
One more thing, using rings of power as a comparison tool is almost an insult. Sure, is it better than dogshit? Yes. But that doesn't say much.
The RPG Exalted with the Sidereals and the "Loom of Fate" does a good job of putting agency, fate, and manipulation of reality into a useful perspective. In that lore, decisions can alter fate, but people and the loom itself try to correct things. There isn't one or the other, but it's both. It gets very complex, but it makes room for characters to be able to do things that would destroy reality itself. But that is a complexity that can't exist outside of an RPG system, written down, with attempts at mechanical canonization.
Just a heads up, this video still appears to be unlisted. It doesn't show up in Brandon's latest videos. I had to get here via a direct link in Daniel Greene's text post.
The discussion about the ending is a little nit picky, while I'm on Brandon's side on this. The whole discussion should have been why the hell did you change the fight scene with something mediocre and robbed us of one of the coolest fights in fantasy and gave us some meh scene on a rock.
Moiraine with the ships is bullshit. She broke the Third Oath. Unless they introduce her as Black Ajah, this outcome is impossible.
I would be shocked to find out that Amazon isn't paying the guy in the middle to defend the show with all his MIGHT.. Shocked I tell you! :))
Oh I was waiting for this video but missed it because I was waiting / ecpecting some screenshot to show up in the thumbnail
I totally agree with Daniel and Brandon. Being ta'veren just means that the pattern manipulates chance to make sure you're on the right path. If the patterns has to give them the ability to overcome these obstacles then why are they ta'veren to begin with? I've always seen it as though they are people who have such a massive impact on history that the pattern needs it to happen, so if things stray then it pulls them in the right direction. It implies that if they managed to stay on the right track then the pattern wouldn't pull them at all.
7:33 actually i can think of a way to visually represent smelling emotions. Have a color scent trail wafting off the person he's smelling. The color can represent the specific emotion he smells. Either have him know instinctively what each emotion is, and we the audience can color coordinate based on what he's saying.
So we don't need Perrin to specifically tell us what each color is, because he doesn't see the color and it would be weird for him to just tell people that. So he can specify that he's reading...well smelling the specific emotion and we the audience can associate that emotion with the color we're shown. People can even start charting the colors/emotions. A fun little interactive thing with the audience.
Either have him know instinctively, or have him learn based on reading the situation. That would emphasize Perrin's analytical nature.
53:42 Birgitte was mentioned in season 1 - Else Grinwell had a doll of hers that she showed to Mat.
What does Mat say right before the heroes of the horn charge?
Hey guys, great video. I just started book 2 and I'm doing audiobooks. Unfortunately I listened to Rosamund pike reading the first one and it was fantastic. Unfortunately I have a different narrator for book to so I have to get past his voice before I can really enjoy it.
I liked the finale, but surprisingly a lot of my qualms are the same you brought up. A shadar lagoth blade on a stick would corrupt the stick, the heroes of the horn should have been there longer, and, the tower needed some more backstory to be impactful. Luckily for me, just with book one, I thought it worked. I'm more excited to get to the end of the great hunt now.
I get sort of a season 8 game of thrones thing here. The choices they made here would work if they gave the seasons more episodes. I understand it would be difficult and expensive, but if they are going to spend multiple episodes on individual character archs, they need more room for the themes to breathe.
My biggest issue with the series as a whole is they keep taking big scenes away from Rand. I wonder if non-readers wonder why he’s the dragon?
Also Ishy could have just shielded Egwene like he did to Moraine…
The show has not bothered to establish that either. They just told us that he is the DR in s01e07, and moved on.
Non book reader here.
It was very strange watching Ishamael hammer that shield for a martial eternity. It's like if he were the most dangerous swordsman in the world and he spent as much time smashing a stationary shield with the same overhand cut. I buy that Egwaine could stand toe-to-toe with him for power -- she's been built up as a magical powerhouse -- but it really isn't clear why Ishamael had no better idea. It seemed like maybe he wanted to die, but it really wasn't clear why he would choose to die by throwing the fight then rather than, like, poisoning himself the previous morning.
Perrin definitely looked awkward standing there with his shield like it was doing something. You couldn't put a handful or fade up there for our boy to handle?
Mat's spear thing seemed a little hokey, but it kind of worked for me. Metaphorically, it happens just after what seems to be his coming to accept himself, even in the face of his darkest aspects, so it feels appropriate that he can work with the dagger so long as he's a little careful. I also understand that he's supposed to be Odin, and this seems exactly like the kind of cheating non-sense Odin would pull.
Thematically, it felt like a waste of a lot of fertile ground. Rand and Moiraine are both trying to handle things in isolation while the Forsaken start working together. Meanwhile Perrin and Hopper start working together... Egwaine and what's-her-name start working together 😬. There's some thematic cohesion here.
There's also a LITTLE bit of symbolism happening with Rand's swordsmanship and his channeling: He's reluctant to channel and trains as a swordsman while working alone, and Lan talks about facing things on his feet and about how the Amerlyn won't be afraid of him for his sword (when he and the Amerlyn Work Together, it's supposed to be with him channeling). His coordination with others (like Egwaine's) is associates with channeling, while his working alone with swordsmanship. This is also interesting because Lan is the world's best swordsman... But he is defined by his partnership and spends much of the season trying to repair it.
But it all kind of falls flat. Rand's swordfighting falls by the wayside, he starts channeling pretty independent of his Working Together arc (I think) and there's a lot of thematic wheel-spinning (no pun intended) as the plot skips along. I really thought he was going to link with Egwaine to defeat Ishamael, but actually, I guess all he needed was to not get blind-sided by a cabal of channelers off-screen long enough to overwhelm Ishy-boy.
What if, instead, Rand shows up still reluctant to channel, fights Turok in a duel, loses, and has to get saved by Lan. Maybe with Moiraine also having to deal with some of the spectators who jump in when Lan violates the duel (or something). Then we see Sword Guy beating an opponent Rand couldn't beat after resolving his Working Together problem with his channeler partner. Then, we stay with Rand for, like, 10 minutes, as he is helped by his friends every stup of the way up the tower and links with Egwaine to empower her actual channeling training to defeat Ishamael? It feels like that might have been a bit more satisfying.
I AGREE, Ishamael "fight" was so... bleh.
I expected so much, I loved the character, but his "conclusion" (I know he kinda comes back after) is so weak, and not as grand as could've be. I not even expected a great Dragon Ball show, I just wanted the heros using ALL that they have to open a chance for Rand to give that strike. Just something to show that Ishamael is really dangerous and skilled.
Given the established rule that a Damane feels double the pain of their Sul'dam, if Egwene and Renna were both each other's Sul'dam and Damane at the same time, wouldn't any pain caused to either of them just kept intensifying as it bounces back and forth until it killed both of them?
Rules do not matter to Rafe. Its whatever it takes to make sure Rand is just another Jake Skywalker who throws away the lightsaber so he can be replaced by the Rey character who atm is Egwene.
I also found this moment very doubtful. And unnecessary. This breaks Egwene's arc of her hatred and fear of Seanchan and losing her freedom. That she will need to overcome to become Amyrlin, defeat Mesana and all the other yhings. Now she is just overpowered girl that can resurrect the dead and solo any forsaken. I'm sure whe will be shown as resurrected Latra that will stop Rand from breaking the world like the stupid version of Lews Therin that the show is preparing for us.
I can’t wait to see Egwene pull Rand out of the box in dumais wells
I don't enjoy seeing Brandon's pain but it's validating, at least. Sigh...
The dagger on a stick 😭😭😭😭😭😭
I wonder how they are teleporting. They aren't using gates, so are they using the dreamworld? I could see going into the dreamworld, moving, and then coming out of it like in the last book working for this visual.
54:00 "she can't fight a forsaken" oh but apparently she can 😭
Matt seems like he’ll accept whatever the show gives them, and I don’t get that. Such an avid book fan seemingly watches the show for moments instead of the overarching story? I guess it’s a way to trick yourself into enjoying it.
34:27 I agree with Brandon here. Rand isn't going off to do it on his own - because they explicitly told him he didn't need to. He was lead to believe by Moiraine for half of the first season that he was fighting the Dark One. When he "won" he thought he was done.
He wasn't trying to save the world on his own - he was trying to run from any attachments (or so we're told - because he's already attached as soon as we see him). And he's going to save Egwene - *despite* knowing that he didn't succeed and at least two Forsaken are loose. This is Mat's arc for TDR. Then his friends just randomly show up at the end out of nowhere. And it splits it mid season.
So he's canceled out both of his arcs from TDR, and been handed Mat's. Mat on the other hand... I'm not sure what his arc is...
This stream was so good!
The dagger has a corrupting influence that will affect Matt just by being near it. They explained that in the second book i believe. Where Moraine explains touching it is bad but its after its got a seed in you that it just needs to be near to grow that darkness
I did have trouble with the dagger as well, as a non-book reader (only Eye of The World so far), that by attaching the rod to it, it should then become a part of the dagger's influence. MAYBE dilute it somewhat, but it should absolutely still be affecting him.
Exactlyyyy i have only read the first 2 books and the books were legendary masterpiece but the show was trash garbage
The dude in the middle is such a victim of the show LOL.
This is the rendition of wheel of time where Egwene is the dragon reborn…even if she isn’t. Thank you guys for recording this and talking about this! Was great to hear all of your views and insight
I've read the entire wheel of time series, and as Brandon recommended back when this TV adaption began, I'm accepting this for what it is and I've really enjoyed it.
I do worry that the story is confusing for non-readers to the point that it may ultimately get cancelled. Hopefully it doesn't!
Part of Perrin's problem is the lack of verbal communication between the wolf and the man, sure its also in the books that they communicate via images, but the books translate it to words and the show should've done that too. Hopper's relationship to Perrin would've meant more then.
1:00: 📺 The Dusty Wheel hosts a live watch and reaction of the Wheel of Time season 2 finale.
7:13: 🎥 The video is about reactions and discussions on a topic for an hour and 10 minutes.
15:58: 🎥 They discuss their thoughts on the character Rand and the set design of the Forsaken in the show.
26:00: 📺 The reviewer expresses disappointment with the character development and storyline involving Fain in the show, feeling that it doesn't live up to their expectations.
33:49: 📚 The speaker discusses the character arc of a character named Dragon Reborn in the Wheel of Time book series.
43:25: ! The CZcamsr discusses his thoughts on the casting and performances in the show.
52:54: 📺 The speaker discusses the relationship between two characters and the need for more development in certain storylines.
1:04:02: 🤔 The speaker discusses their confusion and dissatisfaction with certain aspects of a show or book series.
1:13:07: 📺 The speaker enjoys season two of the show and thinks it is a step up from season one, but feels that the ending was rushed.
1:19:33: 🎥 The direction and cinematography in the second half of the season were not engaging, but the actors gave fantastic performances.
1:25:52: 😕 The speaker struggled with the ending of the season, comparing it to Luke blowing up the Death Star and discussing the idea of letting go of the book's expectations.
1:32:12: 📝 The speaker discusses their efforts to include the heroes in the show and the importance of collaboration in the writing process.
1:38:00: 📺 The speaker discusses the importance of communication and proper blocking in a TV show scene, and the role of the character Tan in the show's plot.
Recap by Tammy AI
Tried to watch but at minute 10 they start going into later book spoilers so now im afraid and just gave up. Im currently on book 5 so maybe will come back after im done
At this point I'm pretty sure we're never going to tear either.
Really appreciate this insight and totally agree. Brandon really breaks down the issues and how the show needs thematic story telling, something the writers are really missing for some reason. Listen to the master/teacher, please! The show is ok but could be so much better!